Author Topic: Ashley Madison Hack  (Read 34488 times)

trailrated

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Ashley Madison Hack
« on: July 22, 2015, 12:49:50 PM »
http://thechive.com/2015/07/20/twitter-reacts-to-the-ashely-madison-hack-15-photos/

Ashley Madison was hacked and the hackers are threatening to unveil the personal information of all those who use the site as a tool to cheat on their wives/husbands (roughly 37 million people).

This link is golden, I will throw my favorite response in quotes for those too lazy to click said link.
Quote
Praying for the victims of the Ashley Madison hack. This must feel like a total betrayal of their trust.

Also on a note that I find to be hilarious, someone that I am facebook friends with that I know for a fact cheated on her husband multiple times posted to facebook something along the lines of, "Serves those cheating assholes right."

So what say you fellow mustachians? Do you find this funny? Terrible? Awful that they were not mustachian in their cheating by finding a way to do it for free?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 12:56:24 PM by trailrated »

trailrated

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2015, 12:55:28 PM »
Presumably, the mustachian thing to do is blackmail the prospective adulterers, buy VTSAX with the proceeds, and FIRE.

I jest, I jest.

Holy shit that was fucking awesome!!! Thank you for making my day

MMMaybe

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2015, 08:06:17 PM »
While it would serve the cheaters right, I don't think the hackers are exactly sitting on the moral hogh ground here either.

The whole premise of that website is awful. They deserve every scrap of bad publicity and it does cheer me up a bit to think of their clientele shaking in their boots :)

GuitarStv

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2015, 06:23:06 AM »
It seems to me that it takes a special kind of cowardly asshole to cheat on a spouse rather than either fix their current relationship or break it off.  I'm having an awful lot of trouble coming up with sympathy for them . . . seems like a little karmic realignment going on.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2015, 10:59:14 AM »
It seems to me that it would take a special kind of idiot to sign up using your real name on a site like that.

How many of the "smart ones" happened to have a credit card under a false name to pay the fees?  Surely, the payment information was hacked too.

forummm

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2015, 11:06:32 AM »
What about people who are in open relationships, so their partner knows about it, but they don't want everyone in their social circle to know because of moral judgment? I think that's between the married couple. If they are OK with it, that's not my business.

1. I feel worse for the Ashley Madison employees, who just saw their stock options go limp...

I see what you did there.

Kaspian

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2015, 11:47:31 AM »
Great quote from the show Mr. Robot about infidelity like this.

Cheating guy:  "Why would you want her to know the truth about me?!  It would devastate her!"
Main character:  "Good....  She needs to fix her radar."


OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2015, 01:07:19 PM »
Easy for me to judge, having never felt the temptation to cheat on any of my partners in my ripe old age (/sarcasm), but I think it's wrong to cheat, obviously.

That being said, from what I've heard about why people cheat, it's because their life/relationship/confidence/etc. is really strained/broken and they want something to fill that void, so they're probably already not the best off. If they are, then they're assholes, but otherwise, I'm just curious to see how it plays out.

trailrated

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2015, 01:11:40 PM »
Stole this from the interwebs but maybe it is time to invest in companies that make pull out couch beds

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2015, 01:33:04 PM »
Stole this from the interwebs but maybe it is time to invest in companies that make pull out couch beds

Hahaha IKEA is probably a good bet ;)

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2015, 03:02:14 AM »
What about people who are in open relationships, so their partner knows about it, but they don't want everyone in their social circle to know because of moral judgment? I think that's between the married couple. If they are OK with it, that's not my business.

1. I feel worse for the Ashley Madison employees, who just saw their stock options go limp...

I see what you did there.

I thought the same thing.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2015, 03:13:33 AM »
I run a local dating website here in SA and had the local rep for Ashley Madison try to convince me that I should send them members and they'll give me a percentage of the sign-ups. I remember quite clearly that she claimed that the company made $100 million a year! There seems to be a fortune to be made in affairs. As a side note, I turned them down.

Lyssa

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2015, 04:37:29 AM »
I neither like cheaters nor the public outing of cheaters other than in cases where there is some sort of 'public interest' (family values type of politician cheating on his or her spouse etc.).

Otherwise, where should the line be drawn? How many couples are 100% honest about porn? Would it be ok to out the users of porn websites as well? Or just the married ones?

GuitarStv

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2015, 06:01:04 AM »
What about people who are in open relationships, so their partner knows about it, but they don't want everyone in their social circle to know because of moral judgment? I think that's between the married couple. If they are OK with it, that's not my business.

1. I feel worse for the Ashley Madison employees, who just saw their stock options go limp...

I see what you did there.

I thought the same thing.

If any of the advertising was targeted towards open relationships and swinging couples I'd agree with you.  However, that's not their target demographic at all based on ads. . .

MLKnits

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2015, 06:44:43 AM »
If any of the advertising was targeted towards open relationships and swinging couples I'd agree with you.  However, that's not their target demographic at all based on ads. . .

Yup, at the very least they're certainly selling themselves purely as for secret infidelities, rather than for open relationships or other arrangements. I would agree with the post above that it's not a venue I ever hear of being used by the people in my circles who have non-monogamous relationships.

That said, I'm not blanket anti-infidelity; I think there are many times when the marriage/family are simply more important than sexual fidelity (though negotiating an open relationship is obviously vastly preferable if possible).

In particular, I think the sheer numbers here are worth noting. This isn't something that's remotely rare, so treating it like "those terrible people" instead of "possibly every other person you know, at some point in their lives" (North American stats are usually in the 40-60% range) is probably not getting to the heart of the issue--it just lets us feel superior.

Kris

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2015, 07:42:00 AM »
I neither like cheaters nor the public outing of cheaters other than in cases where there is some sort of 'public interest' (family values type of politician cheating on his or her spouse etc.).

Otherwise, where should the line be drawn? How many couples are 100% honest about porn? Would it be ok to out the users of porn websites as well? Or just the married ones?

Interesting way of looking at it!  I never considered that porn consumption and cheating would be 2 points on a broad continuum of dishonesty.    I've always felt like if no one is around and I want to watch porn, that's actually none of my wife's business.  I could make it her business, but I doubt she'd want me to! :)

So is it also dishonest if I see someone on TV and think they are attractive, but fail to disclose these feelings to my wife?  :)

I think many women feel that porn is on the dishonesty spectrum. NOTE: I DO NOT THINK THIS! DO NOT FLAME ME!  Just pointing out that you could find women -- perhaps many women -- who would definitely put porn consumption and cheating as points on a broad continuum of relationship dishonesty.

milesdividendmd

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2015, 08:05:48 AM »
I think that outing all porn users would elicit little more than a shrug from most. It's ubiquitous, hardly even a taboo as far as I can tell, and about as shocking as cohabitation before marriage.

forummm

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2015, 08:46:49 AM »
I think that outing all porn users would elicit little more than a shrug from most. It's ubiquitous, hardly even a taboo as far as I can tell, and about as shocking as cohabitation before marriage.

A lot of people consider cohabitation before marriage to be very scandalous. There are strong Puritanical roots in our culture. A lot of those things are dying off though.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2015, 10:17:45 AM »
I think that outing all porn users would elicit little more than a shrug from most. It's ubiquitous, hardly even a taboo as far as I can tell, and about as shocking as cohabitation before marriage.

Most? Completely disagree.  Many, yes.  And I think it's also changing with the generations.  But there are still tons of people who consider porn shameful -- men as well as women -- and use of it somewhere on the continuum of cheating. 

But then, you do live in Portland, and I'm guessing there's not a large population there that thinks that.  I would say that out here in the Midwest, it's largely a question of demographics.  Young, urban people are less likely to feel this way (or at any rate, it's "cool" to be "sex-positive" so even if they did feel that way they would suppress it).  Older, suburban and rural people are much more likely to think there's something "wrong" with a relationship if one or both of the partners is using porn.

forummm

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2015, 10:32:52 AM »
I love seeing those studies that break down Internet porn viewing rates by state and country. Every one I've seen always has the states and countries that are most virulently sexually repressive at the top of the list. "Do as I say, not as I do."

Lyssa

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2015, 10:48:26 AM »
I neither like cheaters nor the public outing of cheaters other than in cases where there is some sort of 'public interest' (family values type of politician cheating on his or her spouse etc.).

Otherwise, where should the line be drawn? How many couples are 100% honest about porn? Would it be ok to out the users of porn websites as well? Or just the married ones?

Interesting way of looking at it!  I never considered that porn consumption and cheating would be 2 points on a broad continuum of dishonesty.    I've always felt like if no one is around and I want to watch porn, that's actually none of my wife's business.  I could make it her business, but I doubt she'd want me to! :)

So is it also dishonest if I see someone on TV and think they are attractive, but fail to disclose these feelings to my wife?  :)

I think many women feel that porn is on the dishonesty spectrum. NOTE: I DO NOT THINK THIS! DO NOT FLAME ME!  Just pointing out that you could find women -- perhaps many women -- who would definitely put porn consumption and cheating as points on a broad continuum of relationship dishonesty.

For me honesty is the only relevant point. I'm not jealous and have been in an open relationship before. Under certain conditions I would consider it again (I guess this is why all of my partners did nit think twice about telling me whom they found attractive... ;-) ). If I found out per coincidence either of a sexual affair or of porn consumption that was actively denied, I would feel betrayed. Not because of sex but because of the lies. I would also feel betrayed if SO would have a secret investment account after we decided to mutually disclose or even merge our finances or if he would not tell me about a serious health issue.

I guess my original point is that a lot of people are not honest with their partner/spouse about a lot of different things and under most circumstances I just wish that they would finally grow up and talk about their needs and problems but do not wish for publicly outing the 'sinners'.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2015, 12:57:10 PM »
While hacking and stealing the personal information of others doesn't exactly put you in the best moral position, I think they should go ahead and release all the information. Fuck those cheaters. And to be clear, I don't think watching porn is anywhere near cheating. We watch people have sex all the time on TV and in movies (obviously without some of the naughtier bits) and that's fine. But when they're naked doing what humans naturally do with each and I'm viewing it (not participating physically) that makes me dishonest? Give me a break. My wife and I both watch porn separately. I don't care and neither does she. Now if I'm participating with someone who isn't my wife, that's a problem...

Kaspian

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2015, 01:06:43 PM »
There's a disjoint in our society between cheating and (i.e.,) porn.  Somehow it's OK for big celebrities to come out and admit they cheated (even with prostitutes!).  Hugh Grant, Eddie Murphy, etc., quickly forgiven.  A glamourous topic to talk about. 
...But masturbation?  Holy shit--don't bring that up!  Ewww...  Cheating is better!! Pee-Wee Herman played with himself?  Ruin that dirty mofo's career immediately!  Before the facts are even known.

Ummm... One of these things is something that pretty much every human being does.  It's taboo--horrible to talk about.  The other?  "Well, he said he was sorry, so I guess he means it...  Let's forgive him.  He's handsome and funny.  He won't cheat on her again." 

GuitarStv

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2015, 02:27:25 PM »
If any of the advertising was targeted towards open relationships and swinging couples I'd agree with you.  However, that's not their target demographic at all based on ads. . .

Yup, at the very least they're certainly selling themselves purely as for secret infidelities, rather than for open relationships or other arrangements. I would agree with the post above that it's not a venue I ever hear of being used by the people in my circles who have non-monogamous relationships.

That said, I'm not blanket anti-infidelity; I think there are many times when the marriage/family are simply more important than sexual fidelity (though negotiating an open relationship is obviously vastly preferable if possible).

In particular, I think the sheer numbers here are worth noting. This isn't something that's remotely rare, so treating it like "those terrible people" instead of "possibly every other person you know, at some point in their lives" (North American stats are usually in the 40-60% range) is probably not getting to the heart of the issue--it just lets us feel superior.

Hang on.  How are you placing the value and importance of your family and marriage ahead of your own selfish desires by fucking someone who isn't your wife in secret?  I'm not seeing it from here . . .

The sheer numbers of people cheating don't make me feel superior, just very sad that so many are so miserable and have given up on the possibility of fixing their relationship problem.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2015, 02:48:48 PM »
it does cheer me up a bit to think of their clientele shaking in their boots :)

as opposed to their usual knocking ?

justajane

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2015, 02:50:53 PM »
Kris is indeed right that in some circles porn viewing is viewed as deeply shameful and as akin to infidelity. I know someone who separated from her husband because he was "addicted to porn." I put that in quotations, because I never got a clear sense of how often he viewed porn or the type of porn he was viewing. Of course I didn't ask, but in my mind I was thinking, "Yeah, so what?"

She started attending a Christian support group for wives whose husbands are addicted to porn. I checked out their webpage, and the testimony of a prior support group attender was classic slippery slope. First her husband started watching porn, then that didn't satisfy him anymore so he started having sex with random women at hotels. Say what? I still don't know what one has to do with the other. That husband was a jerk in a way that had nothing to do with porn, but from their perspective porn is a gateway and never stops there. I truly got a sense that the woman I know who separated from her husband over it thought that it would get so out of control. And he wasn't willing to go into deep therapy for his porn viewing, so the marriage ended. I'm still flummoxed by it, although ultimately I don't think they separated just because of the porn. There had to be other issues, right?

milesdividendmd

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Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2015, 06:21:03 PM »
I neither like cheaters nor the public outing of cheaters other than in cases where there is some sort of 'public interest' (family values type of politician cheating on his or her spouse etc.).

Otherwise, where should the line be drawn? How many couples are 100% honest about porn? Would it be ok to out the users of porn websites as well? Or just the married ones?

Interesting way of looking at it!  I never considered that porn consumption and cheating would be 2 points on a broad continuum of dishonesty.    I've always felt like if no one is around and I want to watch porn, that's actually none of my wife's business.  I could make it her business, but I doubt she'd want me to! :)

So is it also dishonest if I see someone on TV and think they are attractive, but fail to disclose these feelings to my wife?  :)

I think many women feel that porn is on the dishonesty spectrum. NOTE: I DO NOT THINK THIS! DO NOT FLAME ME!  Just pointing out that you could find women -- perhaps many women -- who would definitely put porn consumption and cheating as points on a broad continuum of relationship dishonesty.

For me honesty is the only relevant point. I'm not jealous and have been in an open relationship before. Under certain conditions I would consider it again (I guess this is why all of my partners did nit think twice about telling me whom they found attractive... ;-) ). If I found out per coincidence either of a sexual affair or of porn consumption that was actively denied, I would feel betrayed. Not because of sex but because of the lies. I would also feel betrayed if SO would have a secret investment account after we decided to mutually disclose or even merge our finances or if he would not tell me about a serious health issue.

I guess my original point is that a lot of people are not honest with their partner/spouse about a lot of different things and under most circumstances I just wish that they would finally grow up and talk about their needs and problems but do not wish for publicly outing the 'sinners'.

That's an interesting perspective, and I agree with the tantamount importance of honesty in a relationship.

But when it comes to masturbation/porn I would argue that there is a parallel imperative to keep it to yourself. It's something that almost everyone does and everyone knows it, but frankly it's something that that most don't want to witness or be made aware of directly.

And there are other issues with porn that I am in no way discounting (victimization of actors, loss of libido for the real thing if overused, violence being made mundane)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 11:37:30 PM by milesdividendmd »

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2015, 03:51:09 AM »
Not my bag. However, if they did pay to be shitheads anonymously then they certainly got ripped off.  I personally don't need everything that is uncouth in the world broadcast for me. Im sure its entertaining until somebody finds their niece on their trying to charge for an affair. I mean come on people that has to be a hooker site.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2015, 04:59:44 AM »
Kris is indeed right that in some circles porn viewing is viewed as deeply shameful and as akin to infidelity.

I find that attitude very strange.

Lyssa

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2015, 06:47:12 AM »
I neither like cheaters nor the public outing of cheaters other than in cases where there is some sort of 'public interest' (family values type of politician cheating on his or her spouse etc.).

Otherwise, where should the line be drawn? How many couples are 100% honest about porn? Would it be ok to out the users of porn websites as well? Or just the married ones?

Interesting way of looking at it!  I never considered that porn consumption and cheating would be 2 points on a broad continuum of dishonesty.    I've always felt like if no one is around and I want to watch porn, that's actually none of my wife's business.  I could make it her business, but I doubt she'd want me to! :)

So is it also dishonest if I see someone on TV and think they are attractive, but fail to disclose these feelings to my wife?  :)

I think many women feel that porn is on the dishonesty spectrum. NOTE: I DO NOT THINK THIS! DO NOT FLAME ME!  Just pointing out that you could find women -- perhaps many women -- who would definitely put porn consumption and cheating as points on a broad continuum of relationship dishonesty.

For me honesty is the only relevant point. I'm not jealous and have been in an open relationship before. Under certain conditions I would consider it again (I guess this is why all of my partners did nit think twice about telling me whom they found attractive... ;-) ). If I found out per coincidence either of a sexual affair or of porn consumption that was actively denied, I would feel betrayed. Not because of sex but because of the lies. I would also feel betrayed if SO would have a secret investment account after we decided to mutually disclose or even merge our finances or if he would not tell me about a serious health issue.

I guess my original point is that a lot of people are not honest with their partner/spouse about a lot of different things and under most circumstances I just wish that they would finally grow up and talk about their needs and problems but do not wish for publicly outing the 'sinners'.

That's an interesting perspective, and I agree with the tantamount importance of honesty in a relationship.

But when it comes to masturbation/porn I would argue that there is a parallel imperative to keep it to yourself. It's something that almost everyone does and everyone knows it, but frankly it's something that that most don't want to witness or be made aware of directly.

And there are other issues with porn that I am in no way discounting (victimization of actors, loss of libido for the real thing if overused, violence being made mundane)

Interesting, have you never asked about masturbation and/or porn and never been asked about it? For me it has always been a good way to talk about my partner's or my wishes and how wonderful if you stumble upon a mutual wish/fantasy.

I guess I'm weird. :-)

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2015, 07:24:27 AM »
Kris is indeed right that in some circles porn viewing is viewed as deeply shameful and as akin to infidelity.

I find that attitude very strange.

Trust me, I do too. I am mystified by the breakup of their marriage over this, especially because he was honest about his porn watching. It wasn't about deception or anything.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2015, 08:21:29 AM »
There's a problem with some of the mentality of "fuck those cheaters" and realizing that people might have actually signed up to the site simply to see what it was about with no intention of cheating. Maybe they just used an e-mail address that was theirs and no real name. Or those that signed up with approval of their spouse due to various reasons (as part of a relationship that has serious issues, I have been reading other boards where people do use this site BECAUSE their spouse has medical issues or just isn't interested in sex at all).


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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2015, 09:44:09 AM »
50% of people cheat in a marriage.  40% of marriages end in divorce.  Most people don't even bother getting married anymore.  Single people make up a larger percentage of the adult population.  Marriage is pretty much dead in many Scandinavian countries and would pretty much vanish in the US if we had similar social programs.    It has already vanished at the welfare level and the rules of the ACA are accelerating the demise of marriage at the next level.   

trailrated

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2015, 09:56:15 AM »
50% of people cheat in a marriage.  40% of marriages end in divorce.  Most people don't even bother getting married anymore.  Single people make up a larger percentage of the adult population.  Marriage is pretty much dead in many Scandinavian countries and would pretty much vanish in the US if we had similar social programs.    It has already vanished at the welfare level and the rules of the ACA are accelerating the demise of marriage at the next level.

Conspiracy theory: Gay Marriage was passed by SCOTUS to save the institution of marriage because not enough people were getting married so they opened the floodgates to allow more. (not making fun of your post, I just laughed to myself when this popped into my head)

milesdividendmd

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2015, 12:08:44 AM »

50% of people cheat in a marriage.  40% of marriages end in divorce.  Most people don't even bother getting married anymore.  Single people make up a larger percentage of the adult population.  Marriage is pretty much dead in many Scandinavian countries and would pretty much vanish in the US if we had similar social programs.    It has already vanished at the welfare level and the rules of the ACA are accelerating the demise of marriage at the next level.

The rising divorce rate is mostly just a function of increased economic opportunity for women. So it's not a bad thing at all.

A bad marriage preserved is no treasure.

As the product of a bad marriage and the lucky participant in a great one I am all for marriage, and divorce.



forummm

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2015, 07:07:40 AM »

50% of people cheat in a marriage.  40% of marriages end in divorce.  Most people don't even bother getting married anymore.  Single people make up a larger percentage of the adult population.  Marriage is pretty much dead in many Scandinavian countries and would pretty much vanish in the US if we had similar social programs.    It has already vanished at the welfare level and the rules of the ACA are accelerating the demise of marriage at the next level.

The rising divorce rate is mostly just a function of increased economic opportunity for women. So it's not a bad thing at all.

A bad marriage preserved is no treasure.

As the product of a bad marriage and the lucky participant in a great one I am all for marriage, and divorce.

I never understand why people think that high marriage rates are important. Politicians in particular say this a lot--which means people think it's important. It's definitely harder in the US to raise kids if you're a single parent. But if you have a partner who's helping out or even living with you helping out, it's no different than a marriage. One of the more damaging things that can happen to a child than having two parents at home that should not be together. That often can manifest in violence and in the child learning the wrong lessons on how to treat others. We shouldn't encourage people to be married if they wouldn't otherwise choose that path for themselves.

Spork

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2015, 07:45:10 AM »
It seems to me that it would take a special kind of idiot to sign up using your real name on a site like that.

How many of the "smart ones" happened to have a credit card under a false name to pay the fees?  Surely, the payment information was hacked too.

Yes, according to Brian Krebs, it was.  In fact, AM had some some "pay an extra fee and we will forget you forever" thing.  Reportedly that one fee netted them $1.7M last year.   ...And the credit card data was hacked and the folks that paid that extra cash were also exposed.

Personally, I'm not particularly a fan of almost any of the various hackers with some sort of self-stated social mission.    Sure, the cheaters on the site were clearly doing something I disagree with.  But I don't necessarily think that blackmailing the co-conspirator is a reasonable course of action here.  I am really not an "end justifies the means" kind of guy.

midweststache

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2015, 07:51:27 AM »
50% of people cheat in a marriage.  40% of marriages end in divorce.  Most people don't even bother getting married anymore.  Single people make up a larger percentage of the adult population.  Marriage is pretty much dead in many Scandinavian countries and would pretty much vanish in the US if we had similar social programs. It has already vanished at the welfare level and the rules of the ACA are accelerating the demise of marriage at the next level.

I will also say that DH and I would've been very happy in a committed, unmarried relationship for the rest of our lives but, among other issues, we will likely be in the marriage bonus for the rest of our lives. So are there economic incentives for some NOT to get married? Yup. Are there economic incentives TO get married? Yup (see: military couples who have a quick JOP wedding before one gets shipped overseas). I'm not advocating for people to jump into marriage, but rather that when marriage is tied to economic benefits for some communities it will continue to be prevalent.
 
re: porn. I also think there is a very gendered divide in porn. It's expected of men (see: every old teenage movie where a guy hides porno mags under his mattress). Moreover, I think masturbation is particularly tied to male experience (see: the comment in Bridesmaids where the woman breaks a towel she found). Inversely, women are socialized to be 1) ashamed of their bodies and 2) only sexual in a physical/dress sense, rather than in an actual physical/action sense (see: Madonna/whore dichotomy). Thus, much of the shame around porn has to do with the way, GENERALLY, people are socialized.*

*I do not ascribe to these ideals, nor am I anti-porn; this is more an observation of Midwestern culture. Anecdotally, I was raised in the Midwest in a way that very much aligned with the above, and it took a lot of reading/conversations/personal growth to get past my own hang ups. My marriage is better for it, and my sense of self-worth is better for it.

cacaoheart

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2015, 08:14:44 AM »
What about people who are in open relationships, so their partner knows about it, but they don't want everyone in their social circle to know because of moral judgment? I think that's between the married couple. If they are OK with it, that's not my business.

Most of the people that I know in open relationships are on OKCupid. They're probably more likely to be noticed by intolerant neighbors on a site like Ashley Madison ;-)

Kitsune

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2015, 10:17:53 AM »

Quote
re: porn. I also think there is a very gendered divide in porn. It's expected of men (see: every old teenage movie where a guy hides porno mags under his mattress). Moreover, I think masturbation is particularly tied to male experience (see: the comment in Bridesmaids where the woman breaks a towel she found). Inversely, women are socialized to be 1) ashamed of their bodies and 2) only sexual in a physical/dress sense, rather than in an actual physical/action sense (see: Madonna/whore dichotomy). Thus, much of the shame around porn has to do with the way, GENERALLY, people are socialized.*

Counter-anecdote: I'm in an urban area that is profoundly non-religious. My friends and i share poem recommendations, share toy recommendations, and generally have no shame about it. And yeah, my husband knows (and is cool with it). About half of my friends are in open relationships (and on okcupid or tinder). The general reaction to the Ashley Madison thing is "cheating douchebags get what's coming to them". Its not about rhe sex, it's about the betrayal and lying.

Exhale

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2015, 05:19:42 PM »
Has anyone else listen to Esther Perel's "Rethinking Infidelity" TED Talk?

Description:
Infidelity is the ultimate betrayal. But does it have to be? Relationship therapist Esther Perel examines why people cheat, and unpacks why affairs are so traumatic: because they threaten our emotional security. In infidelity, she sees something unexpected — an expression of longing and loss.

https://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_rethinking_infidelity_a_talk_for_anyone_who_has_ever_loved?language=en

MLKnits

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2015, 09:33:25 AM »
If any of the advertising was targeted towards open relationships and swinging couples I'd agree with you.  However, that's not their target demographic at all based on ads. . .

Yup, at the very least they're certainly selling themselves purely as for secret infidelities, rather than for open relationships or other arrangements. I would agree with the post above that it's not a venue I ever hear of being used by the people in my circles who have non-monogamous relationships.

That said, I'm not blanket anti-infidelity; I think there are many times when the marriage/family are simply more important than sexual fidelity (though negotiating an open relationship is obviously vastly preferable if possible).

In particular, I think the sheer numbers here are worth noting. This isn't something that's remotely rare, so treating it like "those terrible people" instead of "possibly every other person you know, at some point in their lives" (North American stats are usually in the 40-60% range) is probably not getting to the heart of the issue--it just lets us feel superior.

Hang on.  How are you placing the value and importance of your family and marriage ahead of your own selfish desires by fucking someone who isn't your wife in secret?  I'm not seeing it from here . . .

The sheer numbers of people cheating don't make me feel superior, just very sad that so many are so miserable and have given up on the possibility of fixing their relationship problem.

No, I meant that there's a lot of reasons why keeping the marriage and family together are a better response to cheating than "auto-divorce" would be.

However, I do think it can go the other way, in some circumstances. A spouse with disabilities who's financially dependent on you but cannot or does not want to ever have sex with you again, for instance--I don't have a huge problem with that person choosing to stay married but also to have a discreet affair. Or for that matter a spouse who's an amazing parent and best friend but has no interest in ever having sex again; it might be better to have some (again, discreet) encounters if it allows the family to stay together.

The assumption that leaving is always better isn't, I think, one that we should cling to--and I say that as a divorce lawyer! Divorce is bad for children, it's financially devastating for most people, and a lot of people would rather stay together if they felt they had any social room to do so after cheating. But we put an expectation on them to get out, and shame people who don't (say, Hillary Clinton).

Again, obviously, open relationships are better. But lots of things are better than breaking up an otherwise functional and supportive family, even if that means forgiving mistakes OR pursuing discreet options rather than going for the next forty years without sex (which we really can't devalue; sex is a powerful and driving force for pretty much all living beings, and just saying 'don't be selfish' isn't going to stop people from wanting it intensely).

ETA: people often assume that cheating is a symptom of a bad marriage; I'm not sure that's true. It's perhaps a symptom of a bad sex life, or of any of lots of other things, but good-in-many-ways marriages can still have problems in their less-perfect parts. Every relationship has compromises and imperfections.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 09:39:43 AM by MLKnits »

Chris22

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2015, 10:51:11 AM »
If any of the advertising was targeted towards open relationships and swinging couples I'd agree with you.  However, that's not their target demographic at all based on ads. . .

Yup, at the very least they're certainly selling themselves purely as for secret infidelities, rather than for open relationships or other arrangements. I would agree with the post above that it's not a venue I ever hear of being used by the people in my circles who have non-monogamous relationships.

That said, I'm not blanket anti-infidelity; I think there are many times when the marriage/family are simply more important than sexual fidelity (though negotiating an open relationship is obviously vastly preferable if possible).

In particular, I think the sheer numbers here are worth noting. This isn't something that's remotely rare, so treating it like "those terrible people" instead of "possibly every other person you know, at some point in their lives" (North American stats are usually in the 40-60% range) is probably not getting to the heart of the issue--it just lets us feel superior.

Hang on.  How are you placing the value and importance of your family and marriage ahead of your own selfish desires by fucking someone who isn't your wife in secret?  I'm not seeing it from here . . .

The sheer numbers of people cheating don't make me feel superior, just very sad that so many are so miserable and have given up on the possibility of fixing their relationship problem.

No, I meant that there's a lot of reasons why keeping the marriage and family together are a better response to cheating than "auto-divorce" would be.

However, I do think it can go the other way, in some circumstances. A spouse with disabilities who's financially dependent on you but cannot or does not want to ever have sex with you again, for instance--I don't have a huge problem with that person choosing to stay married but also to have a discreet affair. Or for that matter a spouse who's an amazing parent and best friend but has no interest in ever having sex again; it might be better to have some (again, discreet) encounters if it allows the family to stay together.

The assumption that leaving is always better isn't, I think, one that we should cling to--and I say that as a divorce lawyer! Divorce is bad for children, it's financially devastating for most people, and a lot of people would rather stay together if they felt they had any social room to do so after cheating. But we put an expectation on them to get out, and shame people who don't (say, Hillary Clinton).

Again, obviously, open relationships are better. But lots of things are better than breaking up an otherwise functional and supportive family, even if that means forgiving mistakes OR pursuing discreet options rather than going for the next forty years without sex (which we really can't devalue; sex is a powerful and driving force for pretty much all living beings, and just saying 'don't be selfish' isn't going to stop people from wanting it intensely).

ETA: people often assume that cheating is a symptom of a bad marriage; I'm not sure that's true. It's perhaps a symptom of a bad sex life, or of any of lots of other things, but good-in-many-ways marriages can still have problems in their less-perfect parts. Every relationship has compromises and imperfections.

Indeed.  I know of a couple, married 35+ years, the female is not interested in sex any more and hasn't been for a long time.  Likely due to minor medical issues as well as an extremely low level of fitness.  The male on the other hand is in excellent shape for his age and has a fairly significant sex drive still.  Once their children were grown and out of the house, he desired a physical relationship and decided to leave his wife.  Knowing both of them well, it truly was a matter of 50/50 share of blame as far as the marriage no longer working.  However, being a close knit group, this hit the family (inc. the adult children) pretty hard.  Lots of fighting, awkwardness at holidays, and just generally no fun for anyone.  I truly think that in this situation, it would have been better for the husband to go off and have a discreet affair.  He travels frequently for business, so no one would be checking up on him, no one would have to know, and quite frankly, no one would have cared as long as it was kept discreet.  OTOH, the divorce caused a lot of pain, anguish, and cost a lot of money due to separating substantial assets.  My understanding is that the reason there was a divorce was due to religious counsel against infidelity.  Quite frankly, I think it's bullshit, and an affair would have been a lot easier for everyone involved. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2015, 11:05:52 AM »
If any of the advertising was targeted towards open relationships and swinging couples I'd agree with you.  However, that's not their target demographic at all based on ads. . .

Yup, at the very least they're certainly selling themselves purely as for secret infidelities, rather than for open relationships or other arrangements. I would agree with the post above that it's not a venue I ever hear of being used by the people in my circles who have non-monogamous relationships.

That said, I'm not blanket anti-infidelity; I think there are many times when the marriage/family are simply more important than sexual fidelity (though negotiating an open relationship is obviously vastly preferable if possible).

In particular, I think the sheer numbers here are worth noting. This isn't something that's remotely rare, so treating it like "those terrible people" instead of "possibly every other person you know, at some point in their lives" (North American stats are usually in the 40-60% range) is probably not getting to the heart of the issue--it just lets us feel superior.

Hang on.  How are you placing the value and importance of your family and marriage ahead of your own selfish desires by fucking someone who isn't your wife in secret?  I'm not seeing it from here . . .

The sheer numbers of people cheating don't make me feel superior, just very sad that so many are so miserable and have given up on the possibility of fixing their relationship problem.

No, I meant that there's a lot of reasons why keeping the marriage and family together are a better response to cheating than "auto-divorce" would be.

However, I do think it can go the other way, in some circumstances. A spouse with disabilities who's financially dependent on you but cannot or does not want to ever have sex with you again, for instance--I don't have a huge problem with that person choosing to stay married but also to have a discreet affair. Or for that matter a spouse who's an amazing parent and best friend but has no interest in ever having sex again; it might be better to have some (again, discreet) encounters if it allows the family to stay together.

The assumption that leaving is always better isn't, I think, one that we should cling to--and I say that as a divorce lawyer! Divorce is bad for children, it's financially devastating for most people, and a lot of people would rather stay together if they felt they had any social room to do so after cheating. But we put an expectation on them to get out, and shame people who don't (say, Hillary Clinton).

Again, obviously, open relationships are better. But lots of things are better than breaking up an otherwise functional and supportive family, even if that means forgiving mistakes OR pursuing discreet options rather than going for the next forty years without sex (which we really can't devalue; sex is a powerful and driving force for pretty much all living beings, and just saying 'don't be selfish' isn't going to stop people from wanting it intensely).

ETA: people often assume that cheating is a symptom of a bad marriage; I'm not sure that's true. It's perhaps a symptom of a bad sex life, or of any of lots of other things, but good-in-many-ways marriages can still have problems in their less-perfect parts. Every relationship has compromises and imperfections.

Indeed.  I know of a couple, married 35+ years, the female is not interested in sex any more and hasn't been for a long time.  Likely due to minor medical issues as well as an extremely low level of fitness.  The male on the other hand is in excellent shape for his age and has a fairly significant sex drive still.  Once their children were grown and out of the house, he desired a physical relationship and decided to leave his wife.  Knowing both of them well, it truly was a matter of 50/50 share of blame as far as the marriage no longer working.  However, being a close knit group, this hit the family (inc. the adult children) pretty hard.  Lots of fighting, awkwardness at holidays, and just generally no fun for anyone.  I truly think that in this situation, it would have been better for the husband to go off and have a discreet affair.  He travels frequently for business, so no one would be checking up on him, no one would have to know, and quite frankly, no one would have cared as long as it was kept discreet.  OTOH, the divorce caused a lot of pain, anguish, and cost a lot of money due to separating substantial assets.  My understanding is that the reason there was a divorce was due to religious counsel against infidelity.  Quite frankly, I think it's bullshit, and an affair would have been a lot easier for everyone involved.

I still haven't heard a reason that would preclude talking this over with your spouse first.  The betrayal and secrecy of the act is much worse than the infidelity.  If you want to fuck around, fine . . . but have the balls to make your decision known to your partner and deal with the consequences of your actions.

Chris22

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2015, 11:35:02 AM »
If any of the advertising was targeted towards open relationships and swinging couples I'd agree with you.  However, that's not their target demographic at all based on ads. . .

Yup, at the very least they're certainly selling themselves purely as for secret infidelities, rather than for open relationships or other arrangements. I would agree with the post above that it's not a venue I ever hear of being used by the people in my circles who have non-monogamous relationships.

That said, I'm not blanket anti-infidelity; I think there are many times when the marriage/family are simply more important than sexual fidelity (though negotiating an open relationship is obviously vastly preferable if possible).

In particular, I think the sheer numbers here are worth noting. This isn't something that's remotely rare, so treating it like "those terrible people" instead of "possibly every other person you know, at some point in their lives" (North American stats are usually in the 40-60% range) is probably not getting to the heart of the issue--it just lets us feel superior.

Hang on.  How are you placing the value and importance of your family and marriage ahead of your own selfish desires by fucking someone who isn't your wife in secret?  I'm not seeing it from here . . .

The sheer numbers of people cheating don't make me feel superior, just very sad that so many are so miserable and have given up on the possibility of fixing their relationship problem.

No, I meant that there's a lot of reasons why keeping the marriage and family together are a better response to cheating than "auto-divorce" would be.

However, I do think it can go the other way, in some circumstances. A spouse with disabilities who's financially dependent on you but cannot or does not want to ever have sex with you again, for instance--I don't have a huge problem with that person choosing to stay married but also to have a discreet affair. Or for that matter a spouse who's an amazing parent and best friend but has no interest in ever having sex again; it might be better to have some (again, discreet) encounters if it allows the family to stay together.

The assumption that leaving is always better isn't, I think, one that we should cling to--and I say that as a divorce lawyer! Divorce is bad for children, it's financially devastating for most people, and a lot of people would rather stay together if they felt they had any social room to do so after cheating. But we put an expectation on them to get out, and shame people who don't (say, Hillary Clinton).

Again, obviously, open relationships are better. But lots of things are better than breaking up an otherwise functional and supportive family, even if that means forgiving mistakes OR pursuing discreet options rather than going for the next forty years without sex (which we really can't devalue; sex is a powerful and driving force for pretty much all living beings, and just saying 'don't be selfish' isn't going to stop people from wanting it intensely).

ETA: people often assume that cheating is a symptom of a bad marriage; I'm not sure that's true. It's perhaps a symptom of a bad sex life, or of any of lots of other things, but good-in-many-ways marriages can still have problems in their less-perfect parts. Every relationship has compromises and imperfections.

Indeed.  I know of a couple, married 35+ years, the female is not interested in sex any more and hasn't been for a long time.  Likely due to minor medical issues as well as an extremely low level of fitness.  The male on the other hand is in excellent shape for his age and has a fairly significant sex drive still.  Once their children were grown and out of the house, he desired a physical relationship and decided to leave his wife.  Knowing both of them well, it truly was a matter of 50/50 share of blame as far as the marriage no longer working.  However, being a close knit group, this hit the family (inc. the adult children) pretty hard.  Lots of fighting, awkwardness at holidays, and just generally no fun for anyone.  I truly think that in this situation, it would have been better for the husband to go off and have a discreet affair.  He travels frequently for business, so no one would be checking up on him, no one would have to know, and quite frankly, no one would have cared as long as it was kept discreet.  OTOH, the divorce caused a lot of pain, anguish, and cost a lot of money due to separating substantial assets.  My understanding is that the reason there was a divorce was due to religious counsel against infidelity.  Quite frankly, I think it's bullshit, and an affair would have been a lot easier for everyone involved.

I still haven't heard a reason that would preclude talking this over with your spouse first.  The betrayal and secrecy of the act is much worse than the infidelity.  If you want to fuck around, fine . . . but have the balls to make your decision known to your partner and deal with the consequences of your actions.

I would assume, at least in the case I referenced, that the overall topic (lack of a sexual relationship) has been discussed and it was "agree to disagree".  From there, I think there's a large part of "do what you need to but I don't want to have to know about it."  I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.  That's not how it would work in MY relationship (where both partners are happy and reasonably fulfilled and any cheating would purely be selfishness and lack of control) but I'm not ready to say that what works for my wife and I make sense for everyone.

Spitfire

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2015, 10:27:51 AM »
I find the idea of that website horrible and would laugh if they do release the information. Divorce lawyers must be following this news like personal injury lawyers follow an ambulance. 

forummm

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2015, 10:51:15 AM »

Spork

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2015, 05:37:13 PM »
I find the idea of that website horrible and would laugh if they do release the information. Divorce lawyers must be following this news like personal injury lawyers follow an ambulance.

So... hold on there.

Yeah, the concept is a little icky.  But they were not doing anything illegal.  I think you or I could come up with 100 companies pretty quickly that did things we didn't particularly agree with.  But that doesn't mean we should be all smug and giggly when they're open for attack.  Protecting the rights of those you don't agree with is pretty important in a free society. 

And getting mad at AM is like getting mad at "the other woman/man".  The "other woman" didn't break any promises.  She didn't really do anything wrong.  It's the spouse that is potentially breaking promises here.

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2015, 05:54:33 PM »
The "other woman" didn't break any promises.  She didn't really do anything wrong.  It's the spouse that is potentially breaking promises here.

I might argue that point.  The getaway driver for a bank robbery still goes to jail, even if he drove perfectly legally.  Something about aiding and abetting.

If you believe that martial infidelity is morally wrong, then isn't anyone who facilitates it, like a website, also complicit?

Hell, people got all bent out of shape over Swiss banks taking money from Nazis, even though the Swiss didn't do anything wrong other than continue business as usual.  I don't think it's hard to see why people are condemning Ashley Madison.

Now if you want to make the case that martial infidelity isn't necessarily morally wrong, that's a different story.  If you absolve the cheaters you absolve everyone else too.  Except the hackers, they clearly broke a real law.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!