Are women done with men?

[Metalcat]

Yeah, we've discussed the pros and cons of outsourcing domestic labour here for years. MMM even wrote a blog post about it.

A good number of folks here outsource a lot of domestic labour, myself included. Neither DH or I have cooked anything except fresh-caught cod since last winter.

[merula]

The question to think about is this: what skills do you want them to possess before they move away for college? Ours, in addition to general cleaning outlined above, helped wash up after meals, helped with some yard work, occasionally helped with laundry (I know this is a thing people argue about, but with four of us we typically had one hot, one medium, and one cold load per week, so they all got done together). We made sure they could cook at least basic healthy meals, and were able to do other general house maintenance work, but basically once we all spent an hour or so one weekend morning cleaning up our shared living spaces (and planning meals, and getting food) the house was in acceptable shape for the week.

+1

My Mom raised four boys who could do laundry and cook, among other things.  Her method on food was pretty sly: ahe said we could cook or do dishes, she didn't care.  We all chose the same thing.

We tell DS our job as parents is to get him ready to be an adult, so we add things for him to do when we see he can handle it, on the way to being able to do it all.  (Often explained in response to cries of "That's not fair!" when a new responsibility shows up.

I also tell my kids this all the time. Along with the stories about the college roommates we had who had no housework skills at all.... the best one is the 20 y/o who broke up with his GF while she was in the middle of washing his sheets, and then proceeded to sleep on a pile of dirty laundry on a bare mattress for four months.

He's now 40 and a well-functioning adult, but it was harder for him to get there than it should've been.

[Just Joe]

Best example ever:
Empty litterbox.
Scrub litterbox.
Dry litterbox.
Refill litterbox.
WHILE you are pouring the clean litter in, the cat comes and uses the box.

Our cats are inside/outside b/c rural. Yet, they prefer the litterbox over the yard or woods. Go figure...

[Just Joe]

Ah, but the mower won't start, and the garage door fell off its track. The toilet runs all day and night and well it looks like something is jamming the In-Sink-Erator. There's a flood in the basement and I swear....I think I hear something running in-between the walls at night. Yes, it was pretty good for guys back in the day, granted, but it wasn't exactly as sweet as it may have appeared. Brazing copper pipes in a 100 deg attic or getting a good jolt of 115 VAC while trying to fix a mis-wired outlet just doesn't get much press.

IDK a lot of that stuff was handled by repair people while the husband was probably at work. And not all men know how to do that kind of stuff. But that stuff, while it can be a lot, is often the one-off repair that doesn't ever have to be done again - and which is often fun and less repetitive drudge work. I like that kind of stuff and am a big DIY person but once done, it's done...usually.

Agreed. When that one-off stuff happens, I can make the choice to fix it myself or hire it out. And then it's done. (Not to mention that when hiring it out, it often becomes the woman's job to call the repair person...)

Yes, I was that hired repair guy, and it was almost always the wife and I that were communicating and collaborating on the repairs and remodels.
Very often, the husband would display a low level of animosity. It was as if they felt their manhood was being questioned by hiring me to fix stuff on their house.
Meanwhile, they're making big bucks working for Nike or whatever, working a lot, flying to conferences, trying to do "guy stuff" occasionally; they really had no time to do this work, but culturally maybe, they thought they should. I got a lot of mileage out of the "when a man says he'll get something done you don't need to remind him every six months!" joke.

Also, much of the work I ran across that was done by homeowners, both men and women, was sub-standard. Of course, if someone did know how to do good work then they probably wouldn't call me in the first place.
It was usually engineers that could do quality work, but they went about in such a crazy (to me, who grew up in the trades) way it was funny.

You guys must have come from rich families.  My dad fixed everything on his own, regardless of size of job or whether or not he knew how.  And as soon as I was eight I helped him fix everything.  Torture at the time, but I think it really helped me be much handier long term.

You guys are describing my 2024... Really DW and I collaborate on everything pretty well but there are still tasks that only she does and tasks only I do. Its a loose agreement that she doesn't want to mow or service the cars and I don't want to do some of the inside tasks. 

For example this weekend I have three vehicles that need to be serviced for example (EV, ICEV and lawn tractor). Unless I put that off again.

[Just Joe]

I’ve renovated 3 homes to various degrees and on each the majority of my time has been to correct stuff that was “good enough” for whoever did the work last but didn’t care much about the longevity or future owner.

You would laugh to hear my son in law swearing at the previous owner of their house.  Lots of corners were cut.   ;-)

Yeah most of our projects have been correcting the "good enough" PO choices. Dang. I know the PO and what he does for a living. I hope he isn't like this professionally. That said even hiring a project out you need to be aware of "best practices" b/c the trades person can also be lousy.

[Morning Glory]

The question to think about is this: what skills do you want them to possess before they move away for college? Ours, in addition to general cleaning outlined above, helped wash up after meals, helped with some yard work, occasionally helped with laundry (I know this is a thing people argue about, but with four of us we typically had one hot, one medium, and one cold load per week, so they all got done together). We made sure they could cook at least basic healthy meals, and were able to do other general house maintenance work, but basically once we all spent an hour or so one weekend morning cleaning up our shared living spaces (and planning meals, and getting food) the house was in acceptable shape for the week.

+1

My Mom raised four boys who could do laundry and cook, among other things.  Her method on food was pretty sly: ahe said we could cook or do dishes, she didn't care.  We all chose the same thing.

We tell DS our job as parents is to get him ready to be an adult, so we add things for him to do when we see he can handle it, on the way to being able to do it all.  (Often explained in response to cries of "That's not fair!" when a new responsibility shows up.

I use similar language with my son when it's time for him to take new responsibilities as well (vacuuming,  making simple meals, cleaning the bathroom,  etc). Now he is trying to get me to buy him his own tiny house for the backyard so he can "practice taking care of the house like an adult ". He is 9.

[jeninco]

The question to think about is this: what skills do you want them to possess before they move away for college? Ours, in addition to general cleaning outlined above, helped wash up after meals, helped with some yard work, occasionally helped with laundry (I know this is a thing people argue about, but with four of us we typically had one hot, one medium, and one cold load per week, so they all got done together). We made sure they could cook at least basic healthy meals, and were able to do other general house maintenance work, but basically once we all spent an hour or so one weekend morning cleaning up our shared living spaces (and planning meals, and getting food) the house was in acceptable shape for the week.

+1

My Mom raised four boys who could do laundry and cook, among other things.  Her method on food was pretty sly: ahe said we could cook or do dishes, she didn't care.  We all chose the same thing.

We tell DS our job as parents is to get him ready to be an adult, so we add things for him to do when we see he can handle it, on the way to being able to do it all.  (Often explained in response to cries of "That's not fair!" when a new responsibility shows up.

I use similar language with my son when it's time for him to take new responsibilities as well (vacuuming,  making simple meals, cleaning the bathroom,  etc). Now he is trying to get me to buy him his own tiny house for the backyard so he can "practice taking care of the house like an adult ". He is 9.

He could start by taking care of the one he's living in: y'all can alternate weeks!

[spartana]

The question to think about is this: what skills do you want them to possess before they move away for college? Ours, in addition to general cleaning outlined above, helped wash up after meals, helped with some yard work, occasionally helped with laundry (I know this is a thing people argue about, but with four of us we typically had one hot, one medium, and one cold load per week, so they all got done together). We made sure they could cook at least basic healthy meals, and were able to do other general house maintenance work, but basically once we all spent an hour or so one weekend morning cleaning up our shared living spaces (and planning meals, and getting food) the house was in acceptable shape for the week.

+1

My Mom raised four boys who could do laundry and cook, among other things.  Her method on food was pretty sly: ahe said we could cook or do dishes, she didn't care.  We all chose the same thing.

We tell DS our job as parents is to get him ready to be an adult, so we add things for him to do when we see he can handle it, on the way to being able to do it all.  (Often explained in response to cries of "That's not fair!" when a new responsibility shows up.

I use similar language with my son when it's time for him to take new responsibilities as well (vacuuming,  making simple meals, cleaning the bathroom,  etc). Now he is trying to get me to buy him his own tiny house for the backyard so he can "practice taking care of the house like an adult ". He is 9.

He could build it himself! Learn some skills along the way. Then, once finished and decorated, he can invite his family and friends over for a home cooked meal! I think I'd love a kid like that.

[Morning Glory]

The question to think about is this: what skills do you want them to possess before they move away for college? Ours, in addition to general cleaning outlined above, helped wash up after meals, helped with some yard work, occasionally helped with laundry (I know this is a thing people argue about, but with four of us we typically had one hot, one medium, and one cold load per week, so they all got done together). We made sure they could cook at least basic healthy meals, and were able to do other general house maintenance work, but basically once we all spent an hour or so one weekend morning cleaning up our shared living spaces (and planning meals, and getting food) the house was in acceptable shape for the week.

+1

My Mom raised four boys who could do laundry and cook, among other things.  Her method on food was pretty sly: ahe said we could cook or do dishes, she didn't care.  We all chose the same thing.

We tell DS our job as parents is to get him ready to be an adult, so we add things for him to do when we see he can handle it, on the way to being able to do it all.  (Often explained in response to cries of "That's not fair!" when a new responsibility shows up.

I use similar language with my son when it's time for him to take new responsibilities as well (vacuuming,  making simple meals, cleaning the bathroom,  etc). Now he is trying to get me to buy him his own tiny house for the backyard so he can "practice taking care of the house like an adult ". He is 9.

He could build it himself! Learn some skills along the way. Then, once finished and decorated, he can invite his family and friends over for a home cooked meal! I think I'd love a kid like that.

He likes to bake too!
He's trying to convince me that prefab is cheaper though. Quoted me actual numbers that he saw in some youtube but I haven't fact checked them.

[Just Joe]

I told our eldest offspring that they and I would start helping DW by making dinner a couple of nights per week. Many of my evenings are DIY projects but when I'm caught up - why not?

DW smiled her little Mona Lisa smile b/c she knows how well this new "edict" will likely play out.

[Sandi_k]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

[spartana]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

Not to speak for @Just Joe but upthread he said he does a larger bulk of the other household chores (many traditional male chores) alone and that's how they split things. So if he "normally" fixes the cars it wouldn't be unusually for his DW to say "I'm helping my hubby work on the cars". I don't split choresmyself but I know it's common for many couples to do that.

[VanillaGorilla]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

This is such an interesting response - because it's exactly what I would always have expected.

I was raised in a household with very traditional 1950's style gender roles. Stay at home child rearing mother, provider father. My parents split very contentiously when I was in my late teens and I swore that I would only have equitable modern relationships.

So I dated a girl who ran her own business, was at the very top of her professional field, considered herself a fairly ardent feminist, and generally was very competent and very progressive. We got married.

Imagine my surprise when our default household behavior leaned toward traditional gender roles. We split cooking and cleaning and laundry fairly equally but she was not about to touch any tools. Any home improvement, automotive, finance, tax, or manual labor projects were left by default to me. We've had many conversations about this, but the idea of strict equity is not natural to her. It's been a bit of a challenge.

If we're lucky enough to have a family we'll see how child rearing duties play out.

I suppose in today's world gender roles are something of a free for all, and predicting what any given individual considers reasonable or healthy is extremely difficult. Sure makes it more challenging to navigate the world.

[Ron Scott]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

This is such an interesting response - because it's exactly what I would always have expected.

I was raised in a household with very traditional 1950's style gender roles. Stay at home child rearing mother, provider father. My parents split very contentiously when I was in my late teens and I swore that I would only have equitable modern relationships.

So I dated a girl who ran her own business, was at the very top of her professional field, considered herself a fairly ardent feminist, and generally was very competent and very progressive. We got married.

Imagine my surprise when our default household behavior leaned toward traditional gender roles. We split cooking and cleaning and laundry fairly equally but she was not about to touch any tools. Any home improvement, automotive, finance, tax, or manual labor projects were left by default to me. We've had many conversations about this, but the idea of strict equity is not natural to her. It's been a bit of a challenge.

If we're lucky enough to have a family we'll see how child rearing duties play out.

I suppose in today's world gender roles are something of a free for all, and predicting what any given individual considers reasonable or healthy is extremely difficult. Sure makes it more challenging to navigate the world.

Did we somehow start defining “equality” in a marriage by whether each specific household job was alternately assigned to the husband and wife?

[spartana]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

This is such an interesting response - because it's exactly what I would always have expected.

I was raised in a household with very traditional 1950's style gender roles. Stay at home child rearing mother, provider father. My parents split very contentiously when I was in my late teens and I swore that I would only have equitable modern relationships.

So I dated a girl who ran her own business, was at the very top of her professional field, considered herself a fairly ardent feminist, and generally was very competent and very progressive. We got married.

Imagine my surprise when our default household behavior leaned toward traditional gender roles. We split cooking and cleaning and laundry fairly equally but she was not about to touch any tools. Any home improvement, automotive, finance, tax, or manual labor projects were left by default to me. We've had many conversations about this, but the idea of strict equity is not natural to her. It's been a bit of a challenge.

If we're lucky enough to have a family we'll see how child rearing duties play out.

I suppose in today's world gender roles are something of a free for all, and predicting what any given individual considers reasonable or healthy is extremely difficult. Sure makes it more challenging to navigate the world.

A lot of it is just being comfortable and confident in your skills. Many women didn't grow up learning the traditionally male DYI skills so aren't as confident when doing those things.  Or they've been taught that,  besides gardening, getting dirty and disheveled by working on cars or houses isn't feminine and you'll be seen as unattractive or masculine.   There's also a steeper learning curve if you've never done those things or handled tools or power tools until you are older. That's changing of course and parents are teaching their daughters more traditionally male  DIY skills just as they are teaching their sons more traditionally female DIY skills. But unless you've done that stuff a lot it takes time to learn so sometimes easier to let someone else handle it.

[Frugal Lizard]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

This is such an interesting response - because it's exactly what I would always have expected.

I was raised in a household with very traditional 1950's style gender roles. Stay at home child rearing mother, provider father. My parents split very contentiously when I was in my late teens and I swore that I would only have equitable modern relationships.

So I dated a girl who ran her own business, was at the very top of her professional field, considered herself a fairly ardent feminist, and generally was very competent and very progressive. We got married.

Imagine my surprise when our default household behavior leaned toward traditional gender roles. We split cooking and cleaning and laundry fairly equally but she was not about to touch any tools. Any home improvement, automotive, finance, tax, or manual labor projects were left by default to me. We've had many conversations about this, but the idea of strict equity is not natural to her. It's been a bit of a challenge.

If we're lucky enough to have a family we'll see how child rearing duties play out.

I suppose in today's world gender roles are something of a free for all, and predicting what any given individual considers reasonable or healthy is extremely difficult. Sure makes it more challenging to navigate the world.

A lot of it is just being comfortable and confident in your skills. Many women didn't grow up learning the traditionally male DYI skills so aren't as confident when doing those things.  Or they've been taught that,  besides gardening, getting dirty and disheveled by working on cars or houses isn't feminine and you'll be seen as unattractive or masculine.   There's also a steeper learning curve if you've never done those things or handled tools or power tools until you are older. That's changing of course and parents are teaching their daughters more traditionally male  DIY skills just as they are teaching their sons more traditionally female DIY skills. But unless you've done that stuff a lot it takes time to learn so sometimes easier to let someone else handle it.

What I have struggled with is the muscle to do a lot of the DIY stuff. I was a small very slight person. I could not apply drywall compound over my shoulders for any more than five minutes. How many screws have I stripped because I couldn't apply enough weight on the drill? Heck, painting a ceiling was too taxing. Doing this stuff as a weekend warrior did not build strength, it wrecked me for the week.

I am proud to say I am no longer a slight person. And I can do a lot of physical DIY stuff. But my expertise and interest lies within cooking and gardening and food preservation. I enjoy using a sewing machine. I dislike the noise of power tools.

After 27 years of marriage we have a pretty traditional division of household chores with some exceptions. When we have to hire out expertise with tools we don't have, I do the research and the employing. And anything to do with building envelopes, interior design and drainage is in my project management portfolio. DH does all finance stuff. It stresses me out and he enjoys it. We share parenting equally - especially now that offspring are adults.

[wenchsenior]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

This is such an interesting response - because it's exactly what I would always have expected.

I was raised in a household with very traditional 1950's style gender roles. Stay at home child rearing mother, provider father. My parents split very contentiously when I was in my late teens and I swore that I would only have equitable modern relationships.

So I dated a girl who ran her own business, was at the very top of her professional field, considered herself a fairly ardent feminist, and generally was very competent and very progressive. We got married.

Imagine my surprise when our default household behavior leaned toward traditional gender roles. We split cooking and cleaning and laundry fairly equally but she was not about to touch any tools. Any home improvement, automotive, finance, tax, or manual labor projects were left by default to me. We've had many conversations about this, but the idea of strict equity is not natural to her. It's been a bit of a challenge.

If we're lucky enough to have a family we'll see how child rearing duties play out.

I suppose in today's world gender roles are something of a free for all, and predicting what any given individual considers reasonable or healthy is extremely difficult. Sure makes it more challenging to navigate the world.

A lot of it is just being comfortable and confident in your skills. Many women didn't grow up learning the traditionally male DYI skills so aren't as confident when doing those things.  Or they've been taught that,  besides gardening, getting dirty and disheveled by working on cars or houses isn't feminine and you'll be seen as unattractive or masculine.   There's also a steeper learning curve if you've never done those things or handled tools or power tools until you are older. That's changing of course and parents are teaching their daughters more traditionally male  DIY skills just as they are teaching their sons more traditionally female DIY skills. But unless you've done that stuff a lot it takes time to learn so sometimes easier to let someone else handle it.

What I have struggled with is the muscle to do a lot of the DIY stuff. I was a small very slight person. I could not apply drywall compound over my shoulders for any more than five minutes. How many screws have I stripped because I couldn't apply enough weight on the drill? Heck, painting a ceiling was too taxing. Doing this stuff as a weekend warrior did not build strength, it wrecked me for the week.

I am proud to say I am no longer a slight person. And I can do a lot of physical DIY stuff. But my expertise and interest lies within cooking and gardening and food preservation. I enjoy using a sewing machine. I dislike the noise of power tools.

After 27 years of marriage we have a pretty traditional division of household chores with some exceptions. When we have to hire out expertise with tools we don't have, I do the research and the employing. And anything to do with building envelopes, interior design and drainage is in my project management portfolio. DH does all finance stuff. It stresses me out and he enjoys it. We share parenting equally - especially now that offspring are adults.

As a fellow twig person, this is relatable.

[Ron Scott]

You know what an equal sharing of household tasks is? It’s whatever the 2 of them agree it is.

[Sandi_k]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

This is such an interesting response - because it's exactly what I would always have expected.

I was raised in a household with very traditional 1950's style gender roles. Stay at home child rearing mother, provider father. My parents split very contentiously when I was in my late teens and I swore that I would only have equitable modern relationships.

So I dated a girl who ran her own business, was at the very top of her professional field, considered herself a fairly ardent feminist, and generally was very competent and very progressive. We got married.

Imagine my surprise when our default household behavior leaned toward traditional gender roles. We split cooking and cleaning and laundry fairly equally but she was not about to touch any tools. Any home improvement, automotive, finance, tax, or manual labor projects were left by default to me. We've had many conversations about this, but the idea of strict equity is not natural to her. It's been a bit of a challenge.

If we're lucky enough to have a family we'll see how child rearing duties play out.

I suppose in today's world gender roles are something of a free for all, and predicting what any given individual considers reasonable or healthy is extremely difficult. Sure makes it more challenging to navigate the world.

A lot of it is just being comfortable and confident in your skills. Many women didn't grow up learning the traditionally male DYI skills so aren't as confident when doing those things.  Or they've been taught that,  besides gardening, getting dirty and disheveled by working on cars or houses isn't feminine and you'll be seen as unattractive or masculine.   There's also a steeper learning curve if you've never done those things or handled tools or power tools until you are older. That's changing of course and parents are teaching their daughters more traditionally male  DIY skills just as they are teaching their sons more traditionally female DIY skills. But unless you've done that stuff a lot it takes time to learn so sometimes easier to let someone else handle it.

Which is why I commented only on the cooking aspect. Most Michelin star restaurants have a male chef. Cooking is only focused on women when it doesn't make money. ;)

We have a pretty traditional split as well - but we can both crossover when the household needs it. I have changed the oil on DH's car before, when he was over-committed. And he now cooks much more than he used to.

My point is that labeling any household CHORE (not task, chore, that must be done repeatedly) as something with which one HELPS is a problematic viewpoint. I am glad to hear that the OP has talked about taking on more of the chores than expressed in the post I highlighted.

I do think it's worth discussing and paying attention to the framing, especially if you're in the dating world, and not yet committed.

[dividendman]

You know what an equal sharing of household tasks is? It’s whatever the 2 of them agree it is.

What? Just because we agree 1+1=3 doesn't make it 3...

[RetiredAt63]

You know what an equal sharing of household tasks is? It’s whatever the 2 of them agree it is.

What? Just because we agree 1+1=3 doesn't make it 3...

I've come to realize that things are basically even when both have equal amounts of truly free time.  I don't mean free time as in doing a hobby in between managing all the other things going on, or doing something while also doing household planning in one's head, I mean that the activity could be done an hour's drive away and the distance would have no effect.

I think this may be why a lot of people don't like golf (or other time-consuming sports - running?) - if one spouse is at the golf course and the other is keeping the home fires burning, then the golfing spouse has about 5 hours of totally free time.  And if it is on the weekend, and the other spouse is having to do all the chores that need weekends to be done, then it is really a double whammy, the golfer has free time on the labour of the other spouse.  Of course, if the at-home spouse also has a 5 hour chunk of truly free time while the golfing spouse is carrying the full load, then it evens out.  But this rarely seems to be the case.

[spartana]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

This is such an interesting response - because it's exactly what I would always have expected.

I was raised in a household with very traditional 1950's style gender roles. Stay at home child rearing mother, provider father. My parents split very contentiously when I was in my late teens and I swore that I would only have equitable modern relationships.

So I dated a girl who ran her own business, was at the very top of her professional field, considered herself a fairly ardent feminist, and generally was very competent and very progressive. We got married.

Imagine my surprise when our default household behavior leaned toward traditional gender roles. We split cooking and cleaning and laundry fairly equally but she was not about to touch any tools. Any home improvement, automotive, finance, tax, or manual labor projects were left by default to me. We've had many conversations about this, but the idea of strict equity is not natural to her. It's been a bit of a challenge.

If we're lucky enough to have a family we'll see how child rearing duties play out.

I suppose in today's world gender roles are something of a free for all, and predicting what any given individual considers reasonable or healthy is extremely difficult. Sure makes it more challenging to navigate the world.

A lot of it is just being comfortable and confident in your skills. Many women didn't grow up learning the traditionally male DYI skills so aren't as confident when doing those things.  Or they've been taught that,  besides gardening, getting dirty and disheveled by working on cars or houses isn't feminine and you'll be seen as unattractive or masculine.   There's also a steeper learning curve if you've never done those things or handled tools or power tools until you are older. That's changing of course and parents are teaching their daughters more traditionally male  DIY skills just as they are teaching their sons more traditionally female DIY skills. But unless you've done that stuff a lot it takes time to learn so sometimes easier to let someone else handle it.

What I have struggled with is the muscle to do a lot of the DIY stuff. I was a small very slight person. I could not apply drywall compound over my shoulders for any more than five minutes. How many screws have I stripped because I couldn't apply enough weight on the drill? Heck, painting a ceiling was too taxing. Doing this stuff as a weekend warrior did not build strength, it wrecked me for the week.

I am proud to say I am no longer a slight person. And I can do a lot of physical DIY stuff. But my expertise and interest lies within cooking and gardening and food preservation. I enjoy using a sewing machine. I dislike the noise of power tools.

After 27 years of marriage we have a pretty traditional division of household chores with some exceptions. When we have to hire out expertise with tools we don't have, I do the research and the employing. And anything to do with building envelopes, interior design and drainage is in my project management portfolio. DH does all finance stuff. It stresses me out and he enjoys it. We share parenting equally - especially now that offspring are adults.

As a fellow twig person, this is relatable.

Hey I'm a twig person! Just more like Bruce Lee or Sarah Conner in T2 kind of a twig person who looks like a twig but really isn't. We're just bendy and whippy lol. Plus Im tall which is helpful.

But yes I agree that not having the strength to do big heavy jobs as a girl or woman makes it more difficult. However MOST things of a mechanical or building nature don't require much strength and learning how to use tools can really make things easy. Most do require some skill but easily learned skills for the most part.

[Metalcat]

As a fellow twig person, this is relatable.

Hey I'm a twig person! Just more like Bruce Lee or Sarah Conner in T2 kind of a twig person who looks like a twig but really isn't. We're just bendy and snippy lol.

But yes I agree that not having the strength to do big heavy jobs as a girl or woman makes it more difficult. However MOST things of a mechanical or building nature don't require much strength and learning how to use tools can really make things easy. Most do require some skill but easily learned skills for the most part.
[/quote]

I'm not a twig person, just a very physically limited person and until I lost my ability to bend and kneel, I did a ton of DIY. I updated 3 homes while on crutches and barely able to walk.

That said, now that I've lost so much strength in my right leg and lost grip strength in both hands, it's really fucking hard to get any leverage for tasks that require force. But that's a level of weakness well beyond just being a small person.

Not being able to bend and kneel is a killer though. DIY home stuff just sounds miserable to me now whereas it used to sound fun. I had to fuss with the hoses on the toilets recently and just that alone caused an enormous amount of screaming and swearing from frustration. Lol.

So yeah, DIY while you can folks!

[Log]

I think the notion that “traditional” division of labor is regressive and bad and evil is partially based in a denial that men and women, on average, have different interests and inclinations. Even when deliberately kept away from social conditioning and external influences, little boys prefer to play with trucks and little girls prefer to play with dolls. This holds true even when parents actively try to get their girl to play with trucks or their boy to play with dolls.

I seem to recall also hearing the notion that couples who divide labor based on kinds of tasks are happier than those who try to split each task evenly. Because we perceive the labor we do more vividly than the labor someone else does, everyone always thinks they do >50%. I don’t mean to deny on an individual basis that lots of men are failing to pull their weight, but in the aggregate, it seems quite possible that a lot of women are in a negative echo chamber about how men are useless, and are overly validating each other in this particular cognitive bias.

Agreeing on a division of labor makes it unambiguous when someone is failing to do their task, whereas splitting tasks will always lead to resentment over the perception that the other person is failing to pull their weight.

[Ron Scott]

You know what an equal sharing of household tasks is? It’s whatever the 2 of them agree it is.

What? Just because we agree 1+1=3 doesn't make it 3...

I've come to realize that things are basically even when both have equal amounts of truly free time.  I don't mean free time as in doing a hobby in between managing all the other things going on, or doing something while also doing household planning in one's head, I mean that the activity could be done an hour's drive away and the distance would have no effect.

I think this may be why a lot of people don't like golf (or other time-consuming sports - running?) - if one spouse is at the golf course and the other is keeping the home fires burning, then the golfing spouse has about 5 hours of totally free time.  And if it is on the weekend, and the other spouse is having to do all the chores that need weekends to be done, then it is really a double whammy, the golfer has free time on the labour of the other spouse.  Of course, if the at-home spouse also has a 5 hour chunk of truly free time while the golfing spouse is carrying the full load, then it evens out.  But this rarely seems to be the case.

OK then.

It looks like even when a couple agrees they’re sharing the common work equally, they can be wrong and one of them is suffering based on the judgements of outsiders.

If someone thinks they’re happily married they probably aren’t thinking straight because others know better. Got it.

[reeshau]

I do think that whatever balance is achieved, is the private business of those involved.  Just like having kids or not, choice of religion, or not, career choices, housing choices, family involvement, vacations, and everything else.

But that's not to say we aren't programmed from the get-go into certain standards.  And not just by parents.  We have a good friend, a female in a STEM career, who opened my eyes to how much our elementary schools reinforce these norms, even while having formal programs to so the opposite.  It comes habitually to the language teachers use when talking about childrens' future; in the books that are displayed and kids are steered toward; and a hundred other ways.  It is quite frustrating for her when people are mindlessly defaulting to these cultural norms.  As a guy in STEM, I can barely imagine what it would be like to have to fight through that on top of being teased as a "geek."

I just know I'm absolutely rubbish at laundry.  Sweaters get shrunk.  Bras go in the dryer.  Disaster happens.  I'm a jeans (shorts, in Texas) and T-shirt guy.  I learned to handle that.  The rest is somehow encrypted, and I don't have the key.

Cooking is a different matter.  I have a lot of interest in it, and, apparently, I'm not so bad at it.  And, hallelujah for smokers!  We're in the middle of BBQ heaven, and when we sit down for a meal somewhere, I think "how would I do this"?

I can be a messy chef,  but DW and DS let me run amok, because we all enjoy the output.

I am also definitely in charge of "removal of vermin from the house," by order of Herself.  Although, I now have two feline assistants in that department, again.  I just have to interrupt their fun to make sure their toy isn't stingy, poisonous, or something we would rather grant amnesty to and escort outside.

Garbage is definitely granted to me, too, although DS is the appointed assistant.  As supervisor, it seems my job is mainly to be whined at during the process.

[RetiredAt63]

You know what an equal sharing of household tasks is? It’s whatever the 2 of them agree it is.

What? Just because we agree 1+1=3 doesn't make it 3...

I've come to realize that things are basically even when both have equal amounts of truly free time.  I don't mean free time as in doing a hobby in between managing all the other things going on, or doing something while also doing household planning in one's head, I mean that the activity could be done an hour's drive away and the distance would have no effect.

I think this may be why a lot of people don't like golf (or other time-consuming sports - running?) - if one spouse is at the golf course and the other is keeping the home fires burning, then the golfing spouse has about 5 hours of totally free time.  And if it is on the weekend, and the other spouse is having to do all the chores that need weekends to be done, then it is really a double whammy, the golfer has free time on the labour of the other spouse.  Of course, if the at-home spouse also has a 5 hour chunk of truly free time while the golfing spouse is carrying the full load, then it evens out.  But this rarely seems to be the case.

OK then.

It looks like even when a couple agrees they’re sharing the common work equally, they can be wrong and one of them is suffering based on the judgements of outsiders.

If someone thinks they’re happily married they probably aren’t thinking straight because others know better. Got it.

I think maybe you missed my point?  They can be massively traditional in how they split things, but if both have equal amounts of free time they are doing fine. Sadly traditionally, they way it often works is that she is an an "on call as needed" role more often, so she doesn't get the breaks as much.

Plus some things have changed for the worse. When I  was little, once dinner was over and the dishes were done the kitchen was closed,  no-one ate or drank anything until breakfast.    This was true for most people.  Now with the constant snacking the kitchen never stays truly clean.  Plus a freshly clean house was more respected.  Actual respect for the physical aspects of housework seems to have gone down even as we have less time to do it.

[dividendman]

You know what an equal sharing of household tasks is? It’s whatever the 2 of them agree it is.

What? Just because we agree 1+1=3 doesn't make it 3...

I've come to realize that things are basically even when both have equal amounts of truly free time.  I don't mean free time as in doing a hobby in between managing all the other things going on, or doing something while also doing household planning in one's head, I mean that the activity could be done an hour's drive away and the distance would have no effect.

I think this may be why a lot of people don't like golf (or other time-consuming sports - running?) - if one spouse is at the golf course and the other is keeping the home fires burning, then the golfing spouse has about 5 hours of totally free time.  And if it is on the weekend, and the other spouse is having to do all the chores that need weekends to be done, then it is really a double whammy, the golfer has free time on the labour of the other spouse.  Of course, if the at-home spouse also has a 5 hour chunk of truly free time while the golfing spouse is carrying the full load, then it evens out.  But this rarely seems to be the case.

OK then.

It looks like even when a couple agrees they’re sharing the common work equally, they can be wrong and one of them is suffering based on the judgements of outsiders.

If someone thinks they’re happily married they probably aren’t thinking straight because others know better. Got it.

OK then.

It looks like even if someone is in an abusive relationship it's fine if they're fine with it because screw what outsiders think. I'm sure all those women in the middle east who can't leave their homes think it's normal and are "happy" with it, but if they think they're happily married then they're thinking straight because others don't know better. Got it.

[reeshau]

It looks like even if someone is in an abusive relationship it's fine if they're fine with it because screw what outsiders think. I'm sure all those women in the middle east who can't leave their homes think it's normal and are "happy" with it, but if they think they're happily married then they're thinking straight because others don't know better. Got it.

I think it's a step too far to associate your first and second sentence.  I frankly agree with your dislike of the traditional Muslim arrangement, and wouldn't want it for my daughter.  But to say "I have the right way for you!" Is a very imperialist and chauvenist thing to do, without understanding their wishes.

Being in IT, I have come to know a lot of Indian people.  And while it's not universal, many who are quite modern and Western still go for arranged marriages.  I, and I'm guessing you, would put that in the category of "can't leave the house."  A burden on children, and particularly daughters.  They, though, explained it to me as relying on their family to find a good mate, rather than leave it to our "meat market" dating culture, and the risks and high divorce rate that brings.  I am glad they were so open about their thoughts on what could be expected to be a sensitive topic.

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

[Just Joe]

OK, my blood sugar is a little low, but why would you phrase it as "helping" your DW by taking on dinner? That's a pernicious viewpoint.

Instead, you are all citizens and occupants of the house, and all of you are required to participate in the common activities to maintain a home, and feed its residents. Regardless of gender.

Not to speak for @Just Joe but upthread he said he does a larger bulk of the other household chores (many traditional male chores) alone and that's how they split things. So if he "normally" fixes the cars it wouldn't be unusually for his DW to say "I'm helping my hubby work on the cars". I don't split choresmyself but I know it's common for many couples to do that.

Thanks. DW does what DW wants and needs to do. I help her when she wants it or needs it. She helps me when I need or want it. We DIY alot around here and both of us have our specialties. This isn't about traditional gender roles. This is about doing what works for us. She is a hard worker.

Offspring#1 needs the experience for all the MMM reasons - cheaper than eating out single/couple/family, healthier, can help dating (you can learn alot about your SO when you see how they approach house keeping and vice versa.

[nereo]

It looks like even when a couple agrees they’re sharing the common work equally, they can be wrong and one of them is suffering based on the judgements of outsiders.

If someone thinks they’re happily married they probably aren’t thinking straight because others know better. Got it.

It sounds like you meant this as sarcasm, but it does highlight how our societal expectations feeds into what is considered "equitable"

Perhaps an example will help you understand: For years now I have been continuously complimented by random strangers for taking my daughter to school orientation or school shopping or dance lessons.  Often it's things like: "how nice to see a father be so involved".  I don't believe anyone has ever once said something similar to my wife for doing the same thing.  There's a patriarchal expectation that child-care is by default the mothers in a heterosexual marriage. My wife has been scolded by others whenever our kid is less than perfect in public - me, not so much

This expectation filters down to us, often subconsciously. If I'm doing 50% of all the school pickups, bed-times, dance recitals and teacher-conferences I feel like I'm doing a lot, and my wife feels like she's being a negligent mother.  What we expect - even from ourselves - is divergent from an equal share of the load.

Such is the danger of societal expectations.  It's the same coin that forces women to work much harder at the same job to be considered an equal parter compared to their male counterparts.  Even when a person is very aware that it exists it is still incredibly easy to be influenced by societal expectations (i.e. biases).

[dividendman]

It looks like even if someone is in an abusive relationship it's fine if they're fine with it because screw what outsiders think. I'm sure all those women in the middle east who can't leave their homes think it's normal and are "happy" with it, but if they think they're happily married then they're thinking straight because others don't know better. Got it.

I think it's a step too far to associate your first and second sentence.  I frankly agree with your dislike of the traditional Muslim arrangement, and wouldn't want it for my daughter.  But to say "I have the right way for you!" Is a very imperialist and chauvenist thing to do, without understanding their wishes.

Being in IT, I have come to know a lot of Indian people.  And while it's not universal, many who are quite modern and Western still go for arranged marriages.  I, and I'm guessing you, would put that in the category of "can't leave the house."  A burden on children, and particularly daughters.  They, though, explained it to me as relying on their family to find a good mate, rather than leave it to our "meat market" dating culture, and the risks and high divorce rate that brings.  I am glad they were so open about their thoughts on what could be expected to be a sensitive topic.

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I think India has many "good" places for women, like the educated IT folks, and lots of bad places. I was more referring to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan and the like where women have to walk behind men, can't leave their homes (literally) without a male relative escort and must be covered head to toe, and, you know, get stoned to death for getting raped. Things like that. Many of these women don't think their circumstance is bad because they have no frame of reference.

I don't think it's chauvenist or imperial. Western culture, as it exists today, is superior for women's quality of life compared to the middle east and India (though India is not a majority Muslim country or in the middle east, so I'm not sure how that example is pertinent to what I said).

I don't care how anyone finds a mate as long as it's consensual on an equal playing field.

BTW I have walked many miles in those shoes. They are shitty shoes that I wouldn't wish on anybody.

[Just Joe]

DW and I may be a little older than some of you. She does what she can, I do what I can - and if we can't do something together, we'll hire or barter to get it done.

DW has been a tough lady over the years helping or leading the way on some big projects. Our task division looks quite old fashioned one week and the next it doesn't.

[iris lily]

You know what an equal sharing of household tasks is? It’s whatever the 2 of them agree it is.

What? Just because we agree 1+1=3 doesn't make it 3...

I've come to realize that things are basically even when both have equal amounts of truly free time.  I don't mean free time as in doing a hobby in between managing all the other things going on, or doing something while also doing household planning in one's head, I mean that the activity could be done an hour's drive away and the distance would have no effect.

I think this may be why a lot of people don't like golf (or other time-consuming sports - running?) - if one spouse is at the golf course and the other is keeping the home fires burning, then the golfing spouse has about 5 hours of totally free time.  And if it is on the weekend, and the other spouse is having to do all the chores that need weekends to be done, then it is really a double whammy, the golfer has free time on the labour of the other spouse.  Of course, if the at-home spouse also has a 5 hour chunk of truly free time while the golfing spouse is carrying the full load, then it evens out.  But this rarely seems to be the case.

OK then.

It looks like even when a couple agrees they’re sharing the common work equally, they can be wrong and one of them is suffering based on the judgements of outsiders.

If someone thinks they’re happily married they probably aren’t thinking straight because others know better. Got it.

OK then.

It looks like even if someone is in an abusive relationship it's fine if they're fine with it because screw what outsiders think. I'm sure all those women in the middle east who can't leave their homes think it's normal and are "happy" with it, but if they think they're happily married then they're thinking straight because others don't know better. Got it.

Well, there *is* inherent conflict between society’s view of a “good life well lived” and individual choice.

Since I usually come down strongly on the side of individual rights and individual responsibility as I watch the debates about, for instance since you brought it up, Muslim garb for women. I have watched debates where women who wear headgear cling to it while other people earnestly try to convince them their garb is a tool of the patriarchy. Not unique to Muslim culture, true also in other conservative religions and cults.

In society we have to do our best to make sure that individuals reliably have the information they need to live their life they want to live, and to see that they’re not being coerced.
 And then we need to let them live it.

[spartana]

As a fellow twig person, this is relatable.

Hey I'm a twig person! Just more like Bruce Lee or Sarah Conner in T2 kind of a twig person who looks like a twig but really isn't. We're just bendy and snippy lol.

But yes I agree that not having the strength to do big heavy jobs as a girl or woman makes it more difficult. However MOST things of a mechanical or building nature don't require much strength and learning how to use tools can really make things easy. Most do require some skill but easily learned skills for the most part.

I'm not a twig person, just a very physically limited person and until I lost my ability to bend and kneel, I did a ton of DIY. I updated 3 homes while on crutches and barely able to walk.

That said, now that I've lost so much strength in my right leg and lost grip strength in both hands, it's really fucking hard to get any leverage for tasks that require force. But that's a level of weakness well beyond just being a small person.

Not being able to bend and kneel is a killer though. DIY home stuff just sounds miserable to me now whereas it used to sound fun. I had to fuss with the hoses on the toilets recently and just that alone caused an enormous amount of screaming and swearing from frustration. Lol.

So yeah, DIY while you can folks!


[/quote] Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.

[Metalcat]

As a fellow twig person, this is relatable.

Hey I'm a twig person! Just more like Bruce Lee or Sarah Conner in T2 kind of a twig person who looks like a twig but really isn't. We're just bendy and snippy lol.

But yes I agree that not having the strength to do big heavy jobs as a girl or woman makes it more difficult. However MOST things of a mechanical or building nature don't require much strength and learning how to use tools can really make things easy. Most do require some skill but easily learned skills for the most part.

I'm not a twig person, just a very physically limited person and until I lost my ability to bend and kneel, I did a ton of DIY. I updated 3 homes while on crutches and barely able to walk.

That said, now that I've lost so much strength in my right leg and lost grip strength in both hands, it's really fucking hard to get any leverage for tasks that require force. But that's a level of weakness well beyond just being a small person.

Not being able to bend and kneel is a killer though. DIY home stuff just sounds miserable to me now whereas it used to sound fun. I had to fuss with the hoses on the toilets recently and just that alone caused an enormous amount of screaming and swearing from frustration. Lol.

So yeah, DIY while you can folks!

[/quote]

Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.
[/quote]

Yes, I'm agreeing with you. That even as a weak and disabled person, I was still able to DIY. It took so much damage that I was severely hobbled for me to stop.

So if a fairly small, but not "twig" woman on crutches with a fucked up spine can DIY a lot of stuff, I'm sure even the "twig" women can for the most part.

[Just Joe]

Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.

And on projects with stuck fasteners - enough leverage makes any person "Superman". Experience teaches a person where to use it and where not to. ;)

I had to disassemble a FWD hub on our "big car". Extensions, cheater bar, long breaker bar, etc. Even so everything flexed alot before the fastener gave up. Beware potential energy. Cheap breaker bar from the auto parts store did it's job and survived!

[RetiredAt63]

Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.

And on projects with stuck fasteners - enough leverage makes any person "Superman". Experience teaches a person where to use it and where not to. ;)

I had to disassemble a FWD hub on our "big car". Extensions, cheater bar, long breaker bar, etc. Even so everything flexed alot before the fastener gave up. Beware potential energy. Cheap breaker bar from the auto parts store did it's job and survived!

Proper tools are so important.  A lot of drills,for example, are just too big for most women to hold safely.   I love my little battery-powered Ryobi because it is such a comfortable handle for my hand.  I have to admit, now that I am a condo renter, my main use for a drill is winding bobbins. But that saves my hands a lot of stress so it is still a win.

[spartana]

Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.

And on projects with stuck fasteners - enough leverage makes any person "Superman". Experience teaches a person where to use it and where not to. ;)

I had to disassemble a FWD hub on our "big car". Extensions, cheater bar, long breaker bar, etc. Even so everything flexed alot before the fastener gave up. Beware potential energy. Cheap breaker bar from the auto parts store did it's job and survived!

That's where the experience part comes in. Both you and I are gear heads and have been working on stuff, often big stuff, (both personally and professionally) since we were kids. So we know how to defeat most things that require strength (says she of the 6 foot breaker bar and 6 foot torque wrench). But sadly many women haven't been taught all those little tricks and so try to rely on brute strength alone which is hard to do. So might not ever feel comfortable doing things like that. Plus it's all kind of icky and dirty too so not a lot of desire to do that kind of thing. I definitely get that! But they are nice skills and knowledge to have even if someone doesn't want to do them.

And what @RetiredAt63 says. I have dainty little hands and dealing with some tools can be a PITA. Although having long skinny arms and dainty hands has help when the beef cake guys drop tools or nuts and bolts down in the engine compartment and can't get them without tearing half the engine apart :-).

[Metalcat]

Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.

And on projects with stuck fasteners - enough leverage makes any person "Superman". Experience teaches a person where to use it and where not to. ;)

I had to disassemble a FWD hub on our "big car". Extensions, cheater bar, long breaker bar, etc. Even so everything flexed alot before the fastener gave up. Beware potential energy. Cheap breaker bar from the auto parts store did it's job and survived!

Proper tools are so important.  A lot of drills,for example, are just too big for most women to hold safely.   I love my little battery-powered Ryobi because it is such a comfortable handle for my hand.  I have to admit, now that I am a condo renter, my main use for a drill is winding bobbins. But that saves my hands a lot of stress so it is still a win.

So so true.
I have little drills at the city condo and a big, honkin' drill at the rural house, and my little hands DO NOT like the big drill one little bit. It's too big, it's way too heavy, and I find it hard to control it with a lot of precision.

Even with my loss of grip strength, I can manage the little drill. I didn't even realize it would be such an issue when I ordered a drill off of Amazon. I guess I've always bought drills in person and just gravitated towards the smaller ones that fit my hands, because I've never had a drill that I hated before.

[RetiredAt63]

It's all ergonomics.  The traditional men's tools don't fit us.  We need tools that fit us.  Otherwise we feel awkward and tired and unsafe, and don't keep doing something because it is all negative feedback.

We shouldn't be surprised.  Kitchen designers talk about ideal counter height, and how it needs to be modified if someone is extra tall or short. 

Look at all the complaints women have about car shoulder belts - I know I will break a collarbone with my seat belt if I am ever in an accident.  The two women I personally know who were in bad accidents both had broken collarbones.  Seat belts are not designed for us.  They are designed for a man, most likely a taller man.

I see it in the craft community all the time - we know that our different bodies need different tools.  People discuss loom proportions - where is the breast beam, how much do they have to stretch to throw the shuttle or press the treadles.  There is an old work related injury called weaver's bottom (Ischial Bursitis).  Spinners talk about treadle position and orifice height.    Knitters talk about materials the knitting needles are made of, and how sharp the points are (different pointiness for different stitches), and how to hold the needles and throw the yarn.

This is why Invisible Women (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachian-book-club/invisible-women-by-caroline-criado-perez/) is such a valuable book, by the way.  It points out the reason for all the "why don't I fit in the world" reality so many women have.  We don't fit because physically it isn't made to fit us.

[kenner]

It's all ergonomics.  The traditional men's tools don't fit us.  We need tools that fit us.  Otherwise we feel awkward and tired and unsafe, and don't keep doing something because it is all negative feedback.

The most useful gift I got when I bought my place was a toolkit from my father with ~3/4 sized tools.  I forget what it was actually called (it wasn't officially 3/4, but that's a fair estimate of the sizing of everything included as opposed to hardware-store-standard), and the ease of use between those and the mishmash of things I'd picked up across apartments was pretty startling.  And then one of my neighbors was over to help with a two person kitchen job and started complaining about how hard my tools were to use and it was kind of...yeah, dude.  You're just shy of a foot taller than I am and used to the world being made for you and people like me being the ones who have to adapt.  It pretty clearly wasn't something he'd ever considered.

[Ron Scott]

People should buy tools they can use. Living with hand-me-downs and whatever’s in the house is not the way to go.

Concurrently, people should understand how to do various house tasks, and develop skill around the use of tools. A lot of this is not intuitive.

[RetiredAt63]

People should buy tools they can use. Living with hand-me-downs and whatever’s in the house is not the way to go.

Concurrently, people should understand how to do various house tasks, and develop skill around the use of tools. A lot of this is not intuitive.

People need to be able to buy usable tools. 20 years ago I couldn't find a drill that was comfortable.  Now I can.

I'm still waiting for a car's seat belt to fit properly.  I may be dead of old age before that happens.

People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

YouTube is a boon.  I just stumbled on a video on how to adjust the rate at which a door opener closes a door.  I didn't know they are adjustable so I never tried to adjust the one at my condo.

It would be nice if Canada were truly metric so I would only have to buy one set of tools.  But we get so much of our building materials from the US that I have 2 sets of everything,  1 metric and one Imperial.   More money, more storage space, sigh.  Not feasible for people short on money and/or space.

[Sailor Sam]

Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.

And on projects with stuck fasteners - enough leverage makes any person "Superman". Experience teaches a person where to use it and where not to. ;)

I had to disassemble a FWD hub on our "big car". Extensions, cheater bar, long breaker bar, etc. Even so everything flexed alot before the fastener gave up. Beware potential energy. Cheap breaker bar from the auto parts store did it's job and survived!

That's where the experience part comes in. Both you and I are gear heads and have been working on stuff, often big stuff, (both personally and professionally) since we were kids. So we know how to defeat most things that require strength (says she of the 6 foot breaker bar and 6 foot torque wrench). But sadly many women haven't been taught all those little tricks and so try to rely on brute strength alone which is hard to do. So might not ever feel comfortable doing things like that. Plus it's all kind of icky and dirty too so not a lot of desire to do that kind of thing. I definitely get that! But they are nice skills and knowledge to have even if someone doesn't want to do them.

And what @RetiredAt63 says. I have dainty little hands and dealing with some tools can be a PITA. Although having long skinny arms and dainty hands has help when the beef cake guys drop tools or nuts and bolts down in the engine compartment and can't get them without tearing half the engine apart :-).

Give me a long enough lever, and I can move that entire bitch of an engine block with my tiny, ineffectual little fists!

[AlanStache]

As for things sized to the person, yeah, my current stove fume hood is about at eye level, biggest F-ing PIA in the entire home.  "Why yes I would love to worry about poking my eye out everytime I cook something."  Not sure I really want to spend money on moving it up 8" but that might have an actual impact on my quality of life.  Years back I was not interested in buying a place because the kitchen had a ceiling that was like 6'6" - standing in it I felt I needed to duck down even with it inches above my head. 

The other day I had to tell someone how to use a garden hose.  They are early/mid 20's and could have easily have lived their entire lives in apartments or not otherwise needed to use one before.  We all don't know how to do some "simple/common" things, I would try to only judge people who refuse to learn. 

[MustacheAndaHalf]

People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

It's also easy to take everything for granted in the U.S., by not reflecting on progress there which is absent in many Asian countries (Japan and South Korea, for example).  South Korea retains a traditional view of women doing all housework, while simultaneously being so expensive both spouses need to work.  There's a reason they have the lowest fertility rate in the world.

[RetiredAt63]

People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

It's also easy to take everything for granted in the U.S., by not reflecting on progress there which is absent in many Asian countries (Japan and South Korea, for example).  South Korea retains a traditional view of women doing all housework, while simultaneously being so expensive both spouses need to work.  There's a reason they have the lowest fertility rate in the world.

I wasn't actually talking about nominal size, since that varies so much, I was talking actual size.

I see it all the time because I have long feet.   For everything but dress shoes I shop in the men's section. Shoe store size selection doesn't match the actual size distribution of women's feet. 

[MustacheAndaHalf]

People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

It's also easy to take everything for granted in the U.S., by not reflecting on progress there which is absent in many Asian countries (Japan and South Korea, for example).  South Korea retains a traditional view of women doing all housework, while simultaneously being so expensive both spouses need to work.  There's a reason they have the lowest fertility rate in the world.

I wasn't actually talking about nominal size, since that varies so much, I was talking actual size.

I see it all the time because I have long feet.   For everything but dress shoes I shop in the men's section. Shoe store size selection doesn't match the actual size distribution of women's feet.

"No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big"
I've repeatedly bought men's shoes in Asia, which go up to 11.4" size.  Same with shirts and shorts.

[Ron Scott]

People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

It's also easy to take everything for granted in the U.S., by not reflecting on progress there which is absent in many Asian countries (Japan and South Korea, for example).  South Korea retains a traditional view of women doing all housework, while simultaneously being so expensive both spouses need to work.  There's a reason they have the lowest fertility rate in the world.

I wasn't actually talking about nominal size, since that varies so much, I was talking actual size.

I see it all the time because I have long feet.   For everything but dress shoes I shop in the men's section. Shoe store size selection doesn't match the actual size distribution of women's feet.

"No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big"
I've repeatedly bought men's shoes in Asia, which go up to 11.4" size.  Same with shirts and shorts.

We’re talking about products that are produced and sold in market economies. Niches in sizes, etc. that can be profitably sold are exploited pretty quickly and the market accommodates it. If producers don’t see a profitable market they will not fund production for it.

Is there a solution I’m missing?