Are women done with men?

[nereo]

Also curious what counts as a made bed.
And… definitely spend less time organizing the house for the parents than I would for a non related guest. My parents have known me my whole life… who am I kidding?

Also also - I absolutely hate tightly tucked in sheets. Makes me feel like I’m in a full body straight jacket, and it hurts my toes. So nope, not doing the “bounce a quarter off the bed” big…

[reeshau]

Also also - I absolutely hate tightly tucked in sheets. Makes me feel like I’m in a full body straight jacket, and it hurts my toes. So nope, not doing the “bounce a quarter off the bed” big…

I'm 6'8". I have had exactly one bed where my feet didn't hang off the end.  (Surprise at an AirBnB.  Nice, but not worth custom sheets to have my own)  A serious pet peeve is the hotel standard of tucked-in sheets.  Of course I understand why they do it, but if I roll in tired, get in bed, and encounter it, then I have to get up and fix it, or rip them from the inside out.  And then, it's easy to realize there are no fitted sheets at hotels, so the sheets become a real mess by morning.

[partgypsy]

I also hate the tucked in sheets straightjacket feeling! My ideal is: beating sweeping the the bottom sheet, then pillows, top sheet, then quilt/comforter/blanket. Top 2 layers not tucked in but everything perpendicular and lined up correctly. My Dad DID demonstrate how to make a bed where everything was tucked in. But then I said, ok, what happens when you get in bed? When he realized you then have to untuck everything, didn't have to make it that way anymore. Only 2 pillows per bed, and a folded up extra blanket at the foot of the bed.

[RetiredAt63]

My Mom taught us the super tucked in bed sheets and my homemaking badge in Girl Guides reinforced it.  No way, I would like my ankles to function in the morning.  So the top sheet is tucked in very loosely when I first make the bed, and after that it adjusts to what my feet want.

I have never understood the decorative pillow craze, what do you do with them when you want to sleep?  Growing up in the 50s there were no pillow shams, there was a bedspread that was long enough that it went over the pillows with enough extra fabric to tuck under them.  Tidy, looked nice, and was easy to just fold the bedspread down at bed time.

Sample shown below.  See how the spread is tucked under the pillows?   Looks nice, no fuss.

[oldladystache]

Making the bed is something that never has existed in my home. I was a little embarrassed when a nice lady asked my 4 year old son if he had made his bed. His answer? No, my mom bought it.

[Metalcat]

Making the bed is something that never has existed in my home. I was a little embarrassed when a nice lady asked my 4 year old son if he had made his bed. His answer? No, my mom bought it.

Why would anyone be embracing by such an amazing answer??

[oldladystache]

Making the bed is something that never has existed in my home. I was a little embarrassed when a nice lady asked my 4 year old son if he had made his bed. His answer? No, my mom bought it.

Why would anyone be embracing by such an amazing answer??

It was just that the ladies seemed to be the type that wouldn't consider leaving a bed unmade, or makeup not done.  It showed me as a person who didn't meet their standards. I was just a little embarrassed but internally quite amused. Since then I've had fun sharing the story with friends.

[LennStar]

Yes, amazing answer.

For me making the bed means:

A) In the morning when I get up I throw the upper part o the blanket down the bed (so the "sweaty side" points outwards). That is no problem because I intentionally bought a bed with relativly high wooden ends. Saves about 100€ in heating per winter.

B) Sometime suring the day I will take the lower end, shake the blanket hard two or three times, and then throw it on the bed, sometimes turning it around and sometimes throwing the lower part upwards.

As a result every part of the bed gets aired out for hours every few days.

[GuitarStv]

If I'm feeling fancy, in the morning I just push all the blankets under our dresser so there's nothing taking up floorspace.  Making the bed for me usually means I pull everything out and then yank the sheet up over my body after laying down on the floor.

[spartana]

If I'm feeling fancy, in the morning I just push all the blankets under our dresser so there's nothing taking up floorspace.  Making the bed for me usually means I pull everything out and then yank the sheet up over my body after laying down on the floor.

You don't have to make your bed but you do have to sweep your floor ;-). I don't sleep under my bedding but usually sleep on top of it. Im a serious tosser and Turner and sleeping under covers make me feel claustrophobic. Easy that way when sleeping with someone else as it less disruptive to them.  When I sleep under the covers it looks like a bunch of crazed monkeys had a party in the bed.

[Morning Glory]

I have a kid who routinely pulls the whole mattress to the floor,  takes the sheet off, and sleeps on a pile of stuffies on top of that. Other times he will skip the mattress and just use the stuffie pile,  or recline the mattress perpendicular to the bed like a big chair facing the window. I know he's not simply falling out of bed because he has all the pillows and blankets under him.

My other kid must have every inch of bed covered by the blanket.  Go figure.

Strangely enough,  making the bed is the one chore my husband will do without being asked. He is tall so risks uncovered feet if the blanket isn't straight,  whereas I can pull part of the top sheet over myself and call it a day.

[dividendman]

If I'm feeling fancy, in the morning I just push all the blankets under our dresser so there's nothing taking up floorspace.  Making the bed for me usually means I pull everything out and then yank the sheet up over my body after laying down on the floor.

You don't have to make your bed but you do have to sweep your floor ;-). I don't sleep under my bedding but usually sleep on top of it. Im a serious tosser and Turner and sleeping under covers make me feel claustrophobic. Easy that way when sleeping with someone else as it less disruptive to them.  When I sleep under the covers it looks like a bunch of crazed monkeys had a party in the bed.

Momma called the doctor and the doctor said, "No more monkeys jumping on the bed!"

[spartana]

If I'm feeling fancy, in the morning I just push all the blankets under our dresser so there's nothing taking up floorspace.  Making the bed for me usually means I pull everything out and then yank the sheet up over my body after laying down on the floor.

You don't have to make your bed but you do have to sweep your floor ;-). I don't sleep under my bedding but usually sleep on top of it. Im a serious tosser and Turner and sleeping under covers make me feel claustrophobic. Easy that way when sleeping with someone else as it less disruptive to them.  When I sleep under the covers it looks like a bunch of crazed monkeys had a party in the bed.

Momma called the doctor and the doctor said, "No more monkeys jumping on the bed!"

LOL! That song came into my head too. The funny part is I have no kids so where did I learn it?

[dividendman]

If I'm feeling fancy, in the morning I just push all the blankets under our dresser so there's nothing taking up floorspace.  Making the bed for me usually means I pull everything out and then yank the sheet up over my body after laying down on the floor.

You don't have to make your bed but you do have to sweep your floor ;-). I don't sleep under my bedding but usually sleep on top of it. Im a serious tosser and Turner and sleeping under covers make me feel claustrophobic. Easy that way when sleeping with someone else as it less disruptive to them.  When I sleep under the covers it looks like a bunch of crazed monkeys had a party in the bed.

Momma called the doctor and the doctor said, "No more monkeys jumping on the bed!"

LOL! That song came into my head too. The funny part is I have no kids so where did I learn it?

You may not have any, but you were a kid once!

[Morning Glory]

If I'm feeling fancy, in the morning I just push all the blankets under our dresser so there's nothing taking up floorspace.  Making the bed for me usually means I pull everything out and then yank the sheet up over my body after laying down on the floor.

You don't have to make your bed but you do have to sweep your floor ;-). I don't sleep under my bedding but usually sleep on top of it. Im a serious tosser and Turner and sleeping under covers make me feel claustrophobic. Easy that way when sleeping with someone else as it less disruptive to them.  When I sleep under the covers it looks like a bunch of crazed monkeys had a party in the bed.

Momma called the doctor and the doctor said, "No more monkeys jumping on the bed!"

LOL! That song came into my head too. The funny part is I have no kids so where did I learn it?

You may not have any, but you were a kid once!

I think it's penguins now, or maybe just various animals. Pretty sure I heard my kid saying "no more penguins jumping on the bed".

[Sailor Sam]

Beds don't need to be made.

+1. just a waste of time.

You blaspheme!

[GuitarStv]

Beds don't need to be made.

+1. just a waste of time.

You blaspheme!

Bed is made:

[Psychstache]

Beds don't need to be made.

+1. just a waste of time.

You blaspheme!

I don't think this is a conversation that can be had between civilian and military folk.

[Sailor Sam]

I spent 17 years earning the big bed!

But I do sometimes sleep on the floor next to it, because it makes my back hurt. But then I have to actually stand up in a sleepy panic when the phone rings, instead of just picking it up in a sleepy panic from the bed. It’s a vexation.

[GuitarStv]

But I do sometimes sleep on the floor next to it, because it makes my back hurt.

Yes, this encapsulates the idiocy of beds rather neatly.

Like wearing a necktie, nobody can really remember when or why it started but it's been in fashion for so long that comfort and sense be damned - you're gonna have to own a necktie if you're a man.

[spartana]

Beds don't need to be made.

+1. just a waste of time.

You blaspheme!

I don't think this is a conversation that can be had between civilian and military folk.

Or Officers and enlisted ;-)

[jrhampt]

But I do sometimes sleep on the floor next to it, because it makes my back hurt.

Yes, this encapsulates the idiocy of beds rather neatly.

Like wearing a necktie, nobody can really remember when or why it started but it's been in fashion for so long that comfort and sense be damned - you're gonna have to own a necktie if you're a man.

This just means you have a bad mattress.  My mattress loves me very much.

[GuitarStv]

But I do sometimes sleep on the floor next to it, because it makes my back hurt.

Yes, this encapsulates the idiocy of beds rather neatly.

Like wearing a necktie, nobody can really remember when or why it started but it's been in fashion for so long that comfort and sense be damned - you're gonna have to own a necktie if you're a man.

This just means you have a bad mattress.  My mattress loves me very much.

I have a great mattress!  Wall to wall and came free with the house.

[jrhampt]

Hmm.  Well, I also work from bed.  My mattress is a very important part of my office.  So since I spend 16 or so hours most days in it, I like a super plush mattress that doesn’t hurt my elbows, for instance.

[sonofsven]

But I do sometimes sleep on the floor next to it, because it makes my back hurt.

Yes, this encapsulates the idiocy of beds rather neatly.

Like wearing a necktie, nobody can really remember when or why it started but it's been in fashion for so long that comfort and sense be damned - you're gonna have to own a necktie if you're a man.

If you get old and beat down enough you'll find the top reason for a bed is getting out of bed using gravity.

[partgypsy]

Hmm.  Well, I also work from bed.  My mattress is a very important part of my office.  So since I spend 16 or so hours most days in it, I like a super plush mattress that doesn’t hurt my elbows, for instance.

. Um that could be taken the wrong way. Or maybe not?

[jrhampt]

Ha, no.  I assure you I have a very respectable job but my back likes me to work in a reclining position.  So I have done so ever since an injury about 15 years ago.  Super plush.  Very loving.

[Kris]

Ha, no.  I assure you I have a very respectable job but my back likes me to work in a reclining position.  So I have done so ever since an injury about 15 years ago.  Super plush.  Very loving.

Do you find your sleep is disrupted because of this? We hear so much about only sleeping and ****ing in your bed as important “sleep hygiene.”

[jrhampt]

Nope; I sleep great.  I close up my laptop promptly at just about the same time every afternoon and mostly do not think about work at all until the next morning.

[Kris]

Nope; I sleep great.  I close up my laptop promptly at just about the same time every afternoon and mostly do not think about work at all until the next morning.

That’s great. I only sleep and the other thing in my bed, but honestly that’s more because of our house layout and because my husband doesn’t like reading in bed. So I don’t really have any recent experience of this one way or another.

[Metalcat]

Ha, no.  I assure you I have a very respectable job but my back likes me to work in a reclining position.  So I have done so ever since an injury about 15 years ago.  Super plush.  Very loving.

Same, I also work from bed in one of my houses, in the other I have a dedicated work lounger.

I always chuckle at GuitarStv's insistence that people don't need beds. I don't doubt that *he* doesn't, but it's an entertainingly ableist thing to say.

I also have no issues sleeping. As you said, the laptop is for work, it's off when in done work, like clockwork. Totally different headspace.

[AlanStache]

I honestly can imagine actually doing work or computer stuff in my bedroom.  The 100% extend of my screen time in the bed room is limited to setting my alarm.  I dont read, dont hang out dont do anything in there but speed, store my cloths and fornicate.  There really is nothing in the bedroom but clothes storage and a bed (no TV).  I have tried napping on the floor but that did not work - way to hard. 

[nereo]

I honestly can imagine actually doing work or computer stuff in my bedroom.  The 100% extend of my screen time in the bed room is limited to setting my alarm.  I dont read, dont hang out dont do anything in there but speed, store my cloths and fornicate.  There really is nothing in the bedroom but clothes storage and a bed (no TV).  I have tried napping on the floor but that did not work - way to hard.

…doin’ speed in the bedroom while imagining doing some work. I don’t judge…

[Metalcat]

I honestly can imagine actually doing work or computer stuff in my bedroom.  The 100% extend of my screen time in the bed room is limited to setting my alarm.  I dont read, dont hang out dont do anything in there but speed, store my cloths and fornicate.  There really is nothing in the bedroom but clothes storage and a bed (no TV).  I have tried napping on the floor but that did not work - way to hard.

Okay...so you're not a disabled person who needs to work from bed. I love that for you.

But weird flex in response to not one but two disabled people indicating that we work from bed because we have to.

I mean, you might as well tell me that you can't imagine using crutches to go for a hike because all you use are your legs.

[MoseyingAlong]

I honestly can imagine actually doing work or computer stuff in my bedroom.  The 100% extend of my screen time in the bed room is limited to setting my alarm.  I dont read, dont hang out dont do anything in there but speed, store my cloths and fornicate.  There really is nothing in the bedroom but clothes storage and a bed (no TV).  I have tried napping on the floor but that did not work - way to hard.

Okay...so you're not a disabled person who needs to work from bed. I love that for you.

But weird flex in response to not one but two disabled people indicating that we work from bed because we have to.

I mean, you might as well tell me that you can't imagine using crutches to go for a hike because all you use are your legs.

Not everything is a flex or reaction to you. It seemed to me the prior poster was just sharing their personal view/experience on the topic.

[AlanStache]

I honestly can imagine actually doing work or computer stuff in my bedroom.  The 100% extend of my screen time in the bed room is limited to setting my alarm.  I dont read, dont hang out dont do anything in there but speed, store my cloths and fornicate.  There really is nothing in the bedroom but clothes storage and a bed (no TV).  I have tried napping on the floor but that did not work - way to hard.

Okay...so you're not a disabled person who needs to work from bed. I love that for you.

But weird flex in response to not one but two disabled people indicating that we work from bed because we have to.

I mean, you might as well tell me that you can't imagine using crutches to go for a hike because all you use are your legs.

Not everything is a flex or reaction to you. It seemed to me the prior poster was just sharing their personal view/experience on the topic.

Yes thank you MoseyingAlong, was not directed at MC or anyone in particular.  I read a thread where people were discussing the bedroom environment and posted about mine. 

Nareo - not helping.  I am dyslexic and have struggled with proofreading (among other things related to writing) all my life.  If I did as you did in a verbal conversation by pointing a mistake out for comic effect when someone misspoke I would be considered an ass, but somehow in writing it is OK?  I have never got that double standard so screw you.

I understand some people enjoy writing or language arts and have chosen to make it a career or hobby, I would not take offense if in a thread discussing professional roles someone posted that they write and edit novels.

[merula]

The problem with ableism, along with a lot of isms including sexism, that in today's world we don't hear "women need to just listen to men" or "why can't we just institutionalize them" as much as we hear "if women don't put aside their ridiculous demands, it'll spell the end of humanity" and "everyone should do the things I think are best regardless of the way their body works".

That is sexism and ableism. Even if you don't mean it "like that" and even if you "didn't think about [women's need for equal partners]/[disability adaptations]" when you said it.

[nereo]

Nareo - not helping.  I am dyslexic and have struggled with proofreading (among other things related to writing) all my life.  If I did as you did in a verbal conversation by pointing a mistake out for comic effect when someone misspoke I would be considered an ass, but somehow in writing it is OK?  I have never got that double standard so screw you.

I would like to apologize to you @AlanStache.  I was trying to be silly and was reading responses where we had gone from "are women done with men" to discussions about fornication and who makes their bed (or even sleeps in one).  Clearly I missed the mark with my comment.

[GuitarStv]

I think that big bed has gotten to the lot of you.

[AlanStache]

Nareo - not helping.  I am dyslexic and have struggled with proofreading (among other things related to writing) all my life.  If I did as you did in a verbal conversation by pointing a mistake out for comic effect when someone misspoke I would be considered an ass, but somehow in writing it is OK?  I have never got that double standard so screw you.

I would like to apologize to you @AlanStache.  I was trying to be silly and was reading responses where we had gone from "are women done with men" to discussions about fornication and who makes their bed (or even sleeps in one).  Clearly I missed the mark with my comment.

accepted - thanks. 

[Metalcat]

I honestly can imagine actually doing work or computer stuff in my bedroom.  The 100% extend of my screen time in the bed room is limited to setting my alarm.  I dont read, dont hang out dont do anything in there but speed, store my cloths and fornicate.  There really is nothing in the bedroom but clothes storage and a bed (no TV).  I have tried napping on the floor but that did not work - way to hard.

Okay...so you're not a disabled person who needs to work from bed. I love that for you.

But weird flex in response to not one but two disabled people indicating that we work from bed because we have to.

I mean, you might as well tell me that you can't imagine using crutches to go for a hike because all you use are your legs.

Not everything is a flex or reaction to you. It seemed to me the prior poster was just sharing their personal view/experience on the topic.

To me, if any disabled people shares their personal stories of how their disability needs to be accommodated and someone immediately replies with "I can't imagine doing that" and shares how they live differently because they're not disabled that way, that's going to get a raised eyebrow from me.

I get that it wasn't intentional, but disabled folks are relentlessly hit day in and day out with unintentionally ableist comments.

AlanStache himself just got hit with an ableist joke and made a comment and got an apology from nereo, but somehow I'm unreasonable for the same thing???

[AlanStache]

Am sorry MC, I did not look or think of the timing between my reply and your post.  Logged into the forums for the for the first time in a bit, scanned over the dozen updates in this thread, only sort of reading them, then posted - did not look at the date/time of posts.  Correct no insult was intended.  In my casual scanning of the posts I did not really absorb that you work from bed because of the disability. 

[Metalcat]

Am sorry MC, I did not look or think of the timing between my reply and your post.  Logged into the forums for the for the first time in a bit, scanned over the dozen updates in this thread, only sort of reading them, then posted - did not look at the date/time of posts.  Correct no insult was intended.  In my casual scanning of the posts I did not really absorb that you work from bed because of the disability.

No worries, I wasn't super butthurt to begin with, my response was more meant to be teasing than anything else.

If I'm upset, it's really, really obvious, I'm about the least subtle human alive.

[aasdfadsf]

Okay, I'm going to say this just not having read the thread but only replying to the OP:

1. Men and women are never going to get tired of having sex with each other. That's obviously not the issue.

2. The real problem in Korea, other East Asian countries, and also most Western nations is overwork.

3. We, as mustachians, must understand that what we stand for is that too much work is bad. It drives people nuts. Work exists only to accomplish goals.

4. As such, there needs to be a cultural change such that having a family should never be considered a goal that is secondary to work. If it's not for you that's fine, but work-culture should be re-organized such that the things that really matter should come first. Everything we're arguing about, everything we think that matters, is that you aren't your fucking job.   

Okay, this is not an original observation. But still. Korea and Japan have TFRs under 1.0, this is not a matter of people not liking sex. That cannot be the explanation.

[YttriumNitrate]

2. The real problem in Korea, other East Asian countries, and also most Western nations is overwork.

If that were the case, I would expect there be to be a correlation between a country's average number of hours worked and the fertility rate, but just doing a spot check I'm not really seeing it.

[twinstudy]

Okay, I'm going to say this just not having read the thread but only replying to the OP:

1. Men and women are never going to get tired of having sex with each other. That's obviously not the issue.

2. The real problem in Korea, other East Asian countries, and also most Western nations is overwork.

3. We, as mustachians, must understand that what we stand for is that too much work is bad. It drives people nuts. Work exists only to accomplish goals.

4. As such, there needs to be a cultural change such that having a family should never be considered a goal that is secondary to work. If it's not for you that's fine, but work-culture should be re-organized such that the things that really matter should come first. Everything we're arguing about, everything we think that matters, is that you aren't your fucking job.   

Okay, this is not an original observation. But still. Korea and Japan have TFRs under 1.0, this is not a matter of people not liking sex. That cannot be the explanation.

There is no rule that 'family has to come first' [in this context, family specifically meaning child-rearing]. For many, that will be their credo - but it shouldn't be a policy goal. Some people really like work, and they should be allowed to indulge in that. Others may have no passion for work but may also not want children, for whatever reason. That should be normalised. Attempting to structure all of society around the needs of people with children is discriminatory for those who choose to not have or who cannot have children.

I do think too much work is bad, but it's an individual choice - same as having a family.

[RetiredAt63]

It's not like everyone married and had children in previous times.  If we look at Western Europe in medieval times, if you didn't feel a vocation for family life you had a vocation for religious life.  Monks and nuns didn't have kids, they basically devoted their lives to the "work" of being a monastic.  In upper class families with 3 sons, one inherited, one went to the military, and one went to the clergy.  And older people also sometimes went into a religious community as a form of retirement.

Also, I read once somewhere that except for the nobility, people generally didn't get married young.  Men needed to be well enough established to support a family (a farm, a trade) and women had to amass a dowry.*  If I remember correctly men were marrying in their late 20s to 30s and women were marrying in their mid twenties.

And even in more recent times there were people who didn't marry - they were the youngest child and looked after their aging parents, or the oldest son stayed to work on the farm and inherit it, or whatever.  Look at Anne of Green Gables, and Matthew and Marilla Cuthbert.

This marry and have children early and often is a product of the late 40s and 50s, after WWII.  https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037156/crude-birth-rate-us-1800-2020/  Otherwise the birthrate has been steadily dropping since 1800 - as child mortality decreased the push to have several children in the hope that a few would survive lessened.


*As someone who took up the fibre arts in retirement, and has found out just how much time and work goes into making fabric without industrial age equipment, I can understand that it would take years to amass the linens needed for a household.   Remember that for Vikings to go viking in their longships, they needed boats that had sails.  More resources/time/labour went into making the sails than making the boat.

[Metalcat]

Okay, I'm going to say this just not having read the thread but only replying to the OP:

1. Men and women are never going to get tired of having sex with each other. That's obviously not the issue.

2. The real problem in Korea, other East Asian countries, and also most Western nations is overwork.

3. We, as mustachians, must understand that what we stand for is that too much work is bad. It drives people nuts. Work exists only to accomplish goals.

4. As such, there needs to be a cultural change such that having a family should never be considered a goal that is secondary to work. If it's not for you that's fine, but work-culture should be re-organized such that the things that really matter should come first. Everything we're arguing about, everything we think that matters, is that you aren't your fucking job.   

Okay, this is not an original observation. But still. Korea and Japan have TFRs under 1.0, this is not a matter of people not liking sex. That cannot be the explanation.

There is no rule that 'family has to come first' [in this context, family specifically meaning child-rearing]. For many, that will be their credo - but it shouldn't be a policy goal. Some people really like work, and they should be allowed to indulge in that. Others may have no passion for work but may also not want children, for whatever reason. That should be normalised. Attempting to structure all of society around the needs of people with children is discriminatory for those who choose to not have or who cannot have children.

I do think too much work is bad, but it's an individual choice - same as having a family.

As a child free person, I actually disagree. I firmly believe that we need policies that support families and children. We really, really need healthy families and the countries that have a lot of policies to support them tend to have better outcomes overall.

I may not have children, but I was a child.

Countries with robust supports for families have much better economic mobility as well, so if what we want is to support individual goals, having better policies for families is actually the way to go. In places with minimal family supports, people are A LOT more dependent on supports from family, which essentially predestines a lot of folks to their outcomes.

So if you want a society where individuals have more freedom and flexibility to choose their professional outcomes, it's statistically better to be born in a place where parents are heavily supported.

It's important to think of family supporting policies as being *for* people who have children, and more as policies for supporting the development of children, which impacts absolutely everyone, universally, making them the fairest policies that exist.

[RetiredAt63]

As a child free person, I actually disagree. I firmly believe that we need policies that support families and children. We really, really need healthy families and the countries that have a lot of policies to support them tend to have better outcomes overall.

I may not have children, but I was a child.

Countries with robust supports for families have much better economic mobility as well, so if what we want is to support individual goals, having better policies for families is actually the way to go. In places with minimal family supports, people are A LOT more dependent on supports from family, which essentially predestines a lot of folks to their outcomes.

So if you want a society where individuals have more freedom and flexibility to choose their professional outcomes, it's statistically better to be born in a place where parents are heavily supported.

It's important to think of family supporting policies as being *for* people who have children, and more as policies for supporting the development of children, which impacts absolutely everyone, universally, making them the fairest policies that exist.

Yes.  Our children are our future, literally.  This is also why modern societies support free universal education, so that we have an educated population.

When Quebec started their $5/day daycare program, they found that young women went back into the workforce more after having a baby, because once their maternity leave was over they had a good place for the child.  They were not staying home, or (as I heard from colleagues) they were not stuck with leaving the toddlers with a mother-in-law who was not who they would have left them with if they had choices.  Quebec found the day-care subsidy actually made the province money, the cost was more than offset by the increased tax revenue from 2 working spouses.  So very much a win-win solution.

Universal health care is also very important for families, because the care is there for sick children.  And the mothers, since pregnancy and childbirth are potentially fatal.  I'm hoping our federal government, which has finally started including dental care in this, expands it to all children as fast as possible. 

[nereo]

As a child free person, I actually disagree. I firmly believe that we need policies that support families and children. We really, really need healthy families and the countries that have a lot of policies to support them tend to have better outcomes overall.

I may not have children, but I was a child.

Countries with robust supports for families have much better economic mobility as well, so if what we want is to support individual goals, having better policies for families is actually the way to go. In places with minimal family supports, people are A LOT more dependent on supports from family, which essentially predestines a lot of folks to their outcomes.

So if you want a society where individuals have more freedom and flexibility to choose their professional outcomes, it's statistically better to be born in a place where parents are heavily supported.

It's important to think of family supporting policies as being *for* people who have children, and more as policies for supporting the development of children, which impacts absolutely everyone, universally, making them the fairest policies that exist.

Yes.  Our children are our future, literally.  This is also why modern societies support free universal education, so that we have an educated population.

When Quebec started their $5/day daycare program, they found that young women went back into the workforce more after having a baby, because once their maternity leave was over they had a good place for the child.  They were not staying home, or (as I heard from colleagues) they were not stuck with leaving the toddlers with a mother-in-law who was not who they would have left them with if they had choices.  Quebec found the day-care subsidy actually made the province money, the cost was more than offset by the increased tax revenue from 2 working spouses.  So very much a win-win solution.

Universal health care is also very important for families, because the care is there for sick children.  And the mothers, since pregnancy and childbirth are potentially fatal.  I'm hoping our federal government, which has finally started including dental care in this, expands it to all children as fast as possible. 

As a couple who lived in Quebec and had a child “later” in life, one thing that’s irritating the both of us is the rhetoric that surrounds having children in the US

One phrase is how it’s “okay” to not have children because some people just “never meet the right person”.

Another is “you can still have a full life without children” (emphasis on ‘still’). Alongside that are more talk about how “blended families” are important “too”.

Both sentiments start from this idea that the correct, optimal path is to find your heterosexual life partner, get married and have children, raised in the patriarchal nuclear-family blueprint. Any deviation from that and our terminology is still implying that something went wrong, either personally or through a series of unfortunate events. Never married? It’s because you didn’t meet “the right” person. Blended family? Well they are the result of a failure, and now everyone is trying to make the best of what’s assumed to be a terrible beginning. Never had kids? Again, an unfortunate cosmic blunder where you simply didn’t meet the right person, or had the financial capacity at that key time, or you are just reproductively handicapped. Not your fault, really, but it’s assumed that you haven’t met your full potential, especially as a female.

Every single phrase we seem to use to talk about the non married and the non procreated seems to be rooted in this belief that those are the default pathways.