Are women done with men?

[Metalcat]

There is a communication issue that is hard to resolve in any relationship.  It took a decade (and is still ongoing) for my spouse and I to really think about how the household work is divided. 

For 20 years I did 100% of the financial stuff.  Not because my wife wouldn't or couldn't, but because I preferred to know what was happening and she didn't care as much.  I also do about 98% of home maintenance, because I have the skills and interest and she emphatically has neither.  There are other things that she does much more than I, most notably in the last 10 years that includes earning money.

So, if it's Saturday and I spend 4 hours repairing some drywall and painting in our front entrance, then take one of our kids to one of their activities.  Meanwhile spouse does some cleaning and takes the other kid somewhere as well.  Then one of us cooks dinner (we both like to cook and do it pretty evenly).  Wife later expresses resentment that I didn't do any cleaning, I have feelings that my few hours of work on the house doesn't 'count'. 

That's the sort of perception and communication issue that took us years to fully resolve, and it's an ongoing thing.  Every couple eventually - with work and communication - settles on a division of labour that works for both people.  It is not easy.  My wife doesn't really think about home maintenance unless things get really bad.  I am a bit more 'mess tolerant' than her, though I do like the main areas to be tidy and clean and do plenty.

I suspect that a lot of people have never learned how to do that kind of communication without conflict.  It is essential for a long relationship to survive, because festering resentment is only going to build up to a breakdown.

But the problem is that they don't.

Resolving this issue is not a forgone conclusion for most couples who have conflict over it.

Unless what you mean is that with enough communication skills that couples *can* eventually resolve this conflict?? Not that all couples do eventually with enough effort?

Because it's not unusual for us therapists to fire couples from couples therapy because they literally cannot resolve conflict through communication, even with professional help. It's not infrequently the case that trying to communicate actually makes the problem rapidly worse.

[Tyson]

There is a communication issue that is hard to resolve in any relationship.  It took a decade (and is still ongoing) for my spouse and I to really think about how the household work is divided. 

For 20 years I did 100% of the financial stuff.  Not because my wife wouldn't or couldn't, but because I preferred to know what was happening and she didn't care as much.  I also do about 98% of home maintenance, because I have the skills and interest and she emphatically has neither.  There are other things that she does much more than I, most notably in the last 10 years that includes earning money.

So, if it's Saturday and I spend 4 hours repairing some drywall and painting in our front entrance, then take one of our kids to one of their activities.  Meanwhile spouse does some cleaning and takes the other kid somewhere as well.  Then one of us cooks dinner (we both like to cook and do it pretty evenly).  Wife later expresses resentment that I didn't do any cleaning, I have feelings that my few hours of work on the house doesn't 'count'. 

That's the sort of perception and communication issue that took us years to fully resolve, and it's an ongoing thing.  Every couple eventually - with work and communication - settles on a division of labour that works for both people.  It is not easy.  My wife doesn't really think about home maintenance unless things get really bad.  I am a bit more 'mess tolerant' than her, though I do like the main areas to be tidy and clean and do plenty.

I suspect that a lot of people have never learned how to do that kind of communication without conflict.  It is essential for a long relationship to survive, because festering resentment is only going to build up to a breakdown.

But the problem is that they don't.

Resolving this issue is not a forgone conclusion for most couples who have conflict over it.

Unless what you mean is that with enough communication skills that couples *can* eventually resolve this conflict?? Not that all couples do eventually with enough effort?

Because it's not unusual for us therapists to fire couples from couples therapy because they literally cannot resolve conflict through communication, even with professional help. It's not infrequently the case that trying to communicate actually makes the problem rapidly worse.

If things are that bad re: chores, it would probably make sense to outsource things like cleaning, yard work and home repair.  And then work on those feelings of resentment. 

Although I look at divorce statistics and 50% of marriages end in divorce.  Even the people that I know that manage to stay married: most are not exactly happy. 

Maybe as a species we're not really built for lifetime commitment to one person.  Maybe we're built for something more like serial monogamous relationships. 

[Villanelle]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

I think in many cases, men are so far removed from the goings on of a household that they don't understand the time suck of certain things. I think even women who are doing the work sometimes aren't aware that these tasks are actual tasks and they add up.  So if you make a list of chores and divide them evenly (or evenly based on non-employed hours, or some other method both parties deem fair), you are missing a lot of things.  "Shop for Christmas presents for the kids, shop for gifts for family members, wrap gifts" probably isn't on that chore list, but it's a lot of work, and that's before you add the emotional labor of "be the one who remembers it's BIL or mom's birthday".  Taking kid to regular (and emergent) doctor's appointments probably doesn't make the list.  Researching to find a tutor when junior is struggling from math isn't on the list.  Planning the vacation, researching hotels, comparing prices on tour packages, seeing what resorts have kids activities, etc... not on the list. Nor is remember to buy sunscreen before they leave for the trip, ensuring passports for the family are not expired, buying the only motion sickness pills that don't make Timmy sick but keep him from barfing on the plane, having Sally try on her swimsuit and buying a new one when it's clear she's outgrown last year's... 

I think these are the tasks that end up making women (not exclusively, but as a generalization) overwhelmed, and that often go unnoticed by partners.  It's not "I'll clean the toilets if you mop the floors."   You weren't addressing me when you asked the question in a later post about whether making the list and splittng it is a bad idea.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bad idea, but I can see how it could be detrimental because when, "help Timmy with science project" and "find out what Susie wants for Christmas and then scour the world for the last remaining one of those" isn't on the list, things look fair when they aren't.  If the list isn't at least close to comprehensive, it can give a false sense of what each party is actually doing and how "fair" the split is.  And the list is likely to be very far from comprehensive because so much of this isn't stuff most parties think about.

Semi-related:  DH just had a big work milestone with an associated reception  I was helping him think through things (and we were the official hosts), but much of the execution--but not all--was being done by the work admin people.  And I was stressed.  "Do they have coolers for the drinks?  is someone buying ice that morning to put in those coolers?"  These are the types of things that are easy to forget, especially when this is a side project for someone, and that person may have never actually planned an event.  And DH said, "no one is going to judge us if it ends up that the drinks are warm because there's no ice."  And I responded that they wouldn't judge him, but yeah, some people probably would judge me.  The answer is the same for if people show up to a dinner party and the house is a mess, there are dust bunnies under the kitchen table, no one offers them water, and there's nothing for the vegetarian guest to eat.  Subconsciously (or perhaps consciously), people think, "why didn't she have a meat-free option for Jane" or "gee, you'd think she might have straightened up before we came".  So it's easy for a man to be cavalier of the house isn't perfect before company comes, or to dismiss these things, or to feel somewhat resentful that he's being asked to corral dust bunnies pre-party, because he think's a few dust tumbleweeds are NDB.  Because he doesn't experience those things the way she may.  It's not tht she cares more, or at least not *just* that she cares more. It's that those dust bunnies have a different impact on her than they do on him.  Or the warm beverages, or  the missed mother-in-law's birthday.  And who do the bored children on vacation whine to when it turns out the kids' club sucks and there's nothing for them to do?  It's easy for dad to say, "let them figure out out" because the kids aren't tugging on his swimsuit when he's trying to read on the beach.

 (Yes, lots of generalizations here, to illustrate points.)

Hey, I'm glad we're continuing the conversation and things are still civil.  It's a difficult topic and I'm glad we can discuss it with good intentions. 

I absolutely agree with the dynamic you've laid out (and others have mentioned in this thread, too).  There's the explicit list of responsibilities and then there's a whole lot of other unspoken/unstated stuff that just gets lumped onto the woman's part without discussion or acknowledgement. 

What if we added those things to the list, as they came up?  I keep coming back to the list because I think often times men are just dullards when it comes to this stuff.  They need to see it in writing to really get it.

As long as both parties are acting in good faith, I think men can be made to see that they have these blind spots.  But only if you hit them over the head with it.  Like "Look honey, here's 3 things you do and 5, 10, 15 things that I do". 

So then the onus is on the woman to be explicit about about every step and detail required in every activity so that the man will understand what needs to be done?  Isn’t this exactly the issue, that even in trying to even up the gender responsibilities, that women have to take on yet more?  The list would be miles long before every little thing involved in every activity is accounted for.  Hence why women say “never mind, I’ll just do it myself,” and men can remain blissfully oblivious.

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

I think the better approach is that men who want partners just start doing more stuff.  Look at what your kid needs, and do it.  Or look at what your partner is doing, and ask if you can help, handle the rest of it, or take over the responsibility entirely.  And while she needs to be open to letting you do it the way you want to do it, if the task becomes yours, you need to listen if she explains why she does it a certain way or why certain elements are critical.  ("You" being global.)  Because it's not helping if you hand off "packing for the kids", wait until the last minute, and then realize that Sally's swimsuit doesn't ft and someone needs to run to Target because you leave tomorrow, when today was supposed to be spent doing something else.  Men often feel this kind of thing is controlling.  But when you are taking over tasks without the mental context, this is the kind of thing that happens.  And when you aren't used to being the one who deals with the fall out--oh no! the suit someone needs to wear tomorrow needs to be dry cleaned, so now we have to find a quick turn dry cleaner, and add pick up and drop off to the schedule!--then you miss a lot of the details. So you partner isn't being controlling when she tells you that you should lay out the kids outfits this week for Cousin Pat's wedding.  She's understanding the implications and possible complications.

So many times, I hear men say, "I don' offer to help because she doesn't like the way I do it," or versions of that.  And yeah, I think sometimes women do need to meet toward the middle with standards on how the house is kept, etc.  (though remember, people judge the woman when the house is messy, not the man, so it's a lot easier for him to say, "Oh, it's fine".)  But more often, her not liking the way he does it seems to me to be because the way he does it creates more work or more risk.  More work doing a last minute run to buy a swimsuit, or having to entertain the kids on vacation because the 'planner' didn't plan anything for the kids.  More risk because waiting until an hour before your leave for the wedding to pull out the kids' outfits means panicked calls to their similarly sized friends (whose #'s dad doesn't have) to try to find a pair of shoes that fit Timmy and a dress shirt without a stain.  So if she doesn't like the way you do it, sure, maybe that's her being a bit too rigid on the standards.  But maybe there's a reason for it.

And yeah, sometimes it becomes easier for her to just do it than to explain all this (try thinking through it yourself, please!), hound you about it, and then end up dealing with your annoyance at being hounded, and then dealing with the fall out when you didn't think to make sure everyone has the appropriate shoes.  (These are not real examples from my life; I don't even have kids.)

I think the term "weaponized incompetence" is over used and having an annoying moment right now.  And I don't think at lot of this is "weaponized" because it's not intentional.  He's not screwing up getting together the kids; clothes so he doesn't have to do it again.  But he's incompetent enough at it that it becomes harder to her to manage him through it than do it herself.  He need to try to be easier to manage (by thinking ahead, being open to the feedback, and listening).  And she needs to understand that yes, talking him through this takes longer and is frustrating, but that it's in investment in him being able to do it in the future, too.  And I think that's the part where I see a lot of women contribute to the situation.  They don't ant to spend 30 minutes "helping" him do a task they can do in 10, especially because they may not have an extra 20 minutes in their day.  So it's just, "nevermind; I'll do it".  Using the extra time now is in investment in leveling the playing field (or working field, I suppose) going forward. 

Also, men can more easily take on stuff that needs less thinking through.  Go scrub the toilet so your wife can pack for the kids, if that feel fair for her and is faster for everyone.

And yeah, just look around.  If your partner is working on house and life and kids stuff and you aren't, there's probably an imbalance.  Do something about it, and something specific, which is *not* asking, "can I help with something?".  It's standing up and saying, "Oh, I'll strip the beds you were abot to go up and do.  In fact, why don't I just make this my responsibility going forward. I'll do it every Tuesday after my pickleball game, if that works.  That way, I have a set day and routine, and you won't have to remind me that this is my chore now."

[Metalcat]

There is a communication issue that is hard to resolve in any relationship.  It took a decade (and is still ongoing) for my spouse and I to really think about how the household work is divided. 

For 20 years I did 100% of the financial stuff.  Not because my wife wouldn't or couldn't, but because I preferred to know what was happening and she didn't care as much.  I also do about 98% of home maintenance, because I have the skills and interest and she emphatically has neither.  There are other things that she does much more than I, most notably in the last 10 years that includes earning money.

So, if it's Saturday and I spend 4 hours repairing some drywall and painting in our front entrance, then take one of our kids to one of their activities.  Meanwhile spouse does some cleaning and takes the other kid somewhere as well.  Then one of us cooks dinner (we both like to cook and do it pretty evenly).  Wife later expresses resentment that I didn't do any cleaning, I have feelings that my few hours of work on the house doesn't 'count'. 

That's the sort of perception and communication issue that took us years to fully resolve, and it's an ongoing thing.  Every couple eventually - with work and communication - settles on a division of labour that works for both people.  It is not easy.  My wife doesn't really think about home maintenance unless things get really bad.  I am a bit more 'mess tolerant' than her, though I do like the main areas to be tidy and clean and do plenty.

I suspect that a lot of people have never learned how to do that kind of communication without conflict.  It is essential for a long relationship to survive, because festering resentment is only going to build up to a breakdown.

But the problem is that they don't.

Resolving this issue is not a forgone conclusion for most couples who have conflict over it.

Unless what you mean is that with enough communication skills that couples *can* eventually resolve this conflict?? Not that all couples do eventually with enough effort?

Because it's not unusual for us therapists to fire couples from couples therapy because they literally cannot resolve conflict through communication, even with professional help. It's not infrequently the case that trying to communicate actually makes the problem rapidly worse.

If things are that bad re: chores, it would probably make sense to outsource things like cleaning, yard work and home repair.  And then work on those feelings of resentment. 

Although I look at divorce statistics and 50% of marriages end in divorce.  Even the people that I know that manage to stay married: most are not exactly happy. 

Maybe as a species we're not really built for lifetime commitment to one person.  Maybe we're built for something more like serial monogamous relationships.

I suspect it's more that healthy marriages don't thrive within a patriarchal system.

Remember, the current form of western romantic marriage is actually quite a new concept, and one that was constructed.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I suspect that a lot of people have never learned how to do that kind of communication without conflict.  It is essential for a long relationship to survive, because festering resentment is only going to build up to a breakdown.

An experienced divorce lawyer, James Sexton, makes a similar point in YouTube interviews (and probably in his book, which I haven't read).  Many years ago divorce tried to establish fault - well, he cheated on her... okay, but she stopped sleeping with him... but he... but she.  The fault isn't really in those big events that show the marriage is already deeply troubled.  His claim is it starts much earlier, when small things that are valued do not get communicated... even once those small things start to go missing.

[Metalcat]

I suspect that a lot of people have never learned how to do that kind of communication without conflict.  It is essential for a long relationship to survive, because festering resentment is only going to build up to a breakdown.

An experienced divorce lawyer, James Sexton, makes a similar point in YouTube interviews (and probably in his book, which I haven't read).  Many years ago divorce tried to establish fault - well, he cheated on her... okay, but she stopped sleeping with him... but he... but she.  The fault isn't really in those big events that show the marriage is already deeply troubled.  His claim is it starts much earlier, when small things that are valued do not get communicated... even once those small things start to go missing.

Also let's clarify that there's nothing wrong with conflict, healthy conflict is essential to intimacy. The problem is our society pretty systematically conditions people to be terrified of conflict and therefore have little skill and experience engaging in it properly.

We exist within so much patriarchal hierarchy, we actually have incredibly few opportunities and models of productive conflict.

I was just talking to a client yesterday who was waving poetic about romantic movies and how she longs for something like that and I was like "bitch please, raise your damn expectations because rom coms are packed to the rafters with folks who have extremely unproductive and toxic conflict patterns."

I mean seriously, how many of these movies would be resolved by a 5 minute, frank conversation?? Most of them.

I've been training people for many years how to engage in productive conflict, it's like a fucking foreign language to most.

[Villanelle]

There is a communication issue that is hard to resolve in any relationship.  It took a decade (and is still ongoing) for my spouse and I to really think about how the household work is divided. 

For 20 years I did 100% of the financial stuff.  Not because my wife wouldn't or couldn't, but because I preferred to know what was happening and she didn't care as much.  I also do about 98% of home maintenance, because I have the skills and interest and she emphatically has neither.  There are other things that she does much more than I, most notably in the last 10 years that includes earning money.

So, if it's Saturday and I spend 4 hours repairing some drywall and painting in our front entrance, then take one of our kids to one of their activities.  Meanwhile spouse does some cleaning and takes the other kid somewhere as well.  Then one of us cooks dinner (we both like to cook and do it pretty evenly).  Wife later expresses resentment that I didn't do any cleaning, I have feelings that my few hours of work on the house doesn't 'count'. 

That's the sort of perception and communication issue that took us years to fully resolve, and it's an ongoing thing.  Every couple eventually - with work and communication - settles on a division of labour that works for both people.  It is not easy.  My wife doesn't really think about home maintenance unless things get really bad.  I am a bit more 'mess tolerant' than her, though I do like the main areas to be tidy and clean and do plenty.

I suspect that a lot of people have never learned how to do that kind of communication without conflict.  It is essential for a long relationship to survive, because festering resentment is only going to build up to a breakdown.

But the problem is that they don't.

Resolving this issue is not a forgone conclusion for most couples who have conflict over it.

Unless what you mean is that with enough communication skills that couples *can* eventually resolve this conflict?? Not that all couples do eventually with enough effort?

Because it's not unusual for us therapists to fire couples from couples therapy because they literally cannot resolve conflict through communication, even with professional help. It's not infrequently the case that trying to communicate actually makes the problem rapidly worse.

If things are that bad re: chores, it would probably make sense to outsource things like cleaning, yard work and home repair.  And then work on those feelings of resentment. 

Although I look at divorce statistics and 50% of marriages end in divorce.  Even the people that I know that manage to stay married: most are not exactly happy. 

Maybe as a species we're not really built for lifetime commitment to one person.  Maybe we're built for something more like serial monogamous relationships.

All of this sort of feels like there's no real solution for this stuff (or none other than outsourcing).  But the solution is that men startgoing what women have been doing. (And again, I feel the need to acknowledge I'm speaking in generalizations which I know aren't 100% accurate, all the time, for all people.)  If she can do 80% of this, then he can take on 20% more and make things a bit more equitable, without just hiring a cleaner.  (And by the way, I think for many/most people, it's the emotional and mental labor that's exhausting and for which they really need help, not the mopping of floors and cleaning of the oven.) 

And even in a serial monogamous relationship, there's the same issue.  Division of labor and unseen work.  Throwing up your hands and saying, "maybe we aren't built for this" seems like an excuse to not be more observant, be more thoughtful, try harder, and adapt. 

And it's the kind of thinking that leads back to the earlier part of this conversation, with women thinking it sounds easier and less stressful to just not be in a relationship or have kids.  Because men think it's somehow impossible to have a more equitable division of things.  If you "aren't built fo this", and you decide to leave it at that rather than exploring it a bit more, then cool, I guess.  But that's why women don't want "this" with you (global; men].  Because they want someone who sees that, in theory, men are just as capable of planning a family vacation, doing a great job, thinking through the details, putting out the few fires that can still happen even with good planning, and not making any of it their partner's problem, so she can just show up and enjoy a vacation.   And who then strives to make that happen.  Rather than saying he wasn't wired that way, or some vague dismissal.  None of this is hard, but it does require thinking ahead and seeing possible issues and outcomes.  Of course men are "built for that".  They do it at work and in their social lives and in all sorts of interactions.  They just have to decide it's worth it to actually concentrate and think critically and be thorough and thoughtful when planning that vacation, in the same way they are all those things when executing a work project. 

~~~
I feel pretty fortunate.  I have very little chore/responsibility-based tension with DH.  (Though I also think some of that is because we don't have kids.  And some is because I'm messy and have really low cleaning standards myself.)  We've never really had major relationship tension or drama about this stuff.  Once in a while, I get a little frustrated when he's choices end up making more work for me, but that's a pretty small thing and is in line with the kinds of frustrations that happen in a relationship, like him being frustrated that I leave dishes in the sink to "soak" and then never come back to finish.   Is our split 50/50?  No, but he works full time and I don't.  is it equitable?  meh, it's probably close enough. 

[GuitarStv]

Although I look at divorce statistics and 50% of marriages end in divorce.  Even the people that I know that manage to stay married: most are not exactly happy.

I know unhappy married couples, and plenty of people who have been divorced.  But I also know quite a few very happy married couples (and I'd count my own marriage in this pile).  Not sure the 'most are not exactly happy' characterization holds true.  From the studies I've seen this also holds true, married people pretty consistently report higher feelings of happiness than unmarried folks.

[Tyson]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

I think in many cases, men are so far removed from the goings on of a household that they don't understand the time suck of certain things. I think even women who are doing the work sometimes aren't aware that these tasks are actual tasks and they add up.  So if you make a list of chores and divide them evenly (or evenly based on non-employed hours, or some other method both parties deem fair), you are missing a lot of things.  "Shop for Christmas presents for the kids, shop for gifts for family members, wrap gifts" probably isn't on that chore list, but it's a lot of work, and that's before you add the emotional labor of "be the one who remembers it's BIL or mom's birthday".  Taking kid to regular (and emergent) doctor's appointments probably doesn't make the list.  Researching to find a tutor when junior is struggling from math isn't on the list.  Planning the vacation, researching hotels, comparing prices on tour packages, seeing what resorts have kids activities, etc... not on the list. Nor is remember to buy sunscreen before they leave for the trip, ensuring passports for the family are not expired, buying the only motion sickness pills that don't make Timmy sick but keep him from barfing on the plane, having Sally try on her swimsuit and buying a new one when it's clear she's outgrown last year's... 

I think these are the tasks that end up making women (not exclusively, but as a generalization) overwhelmed, and that often go unnoticed by partners.  It's not "I'll clean the toilets if you mop the floors."   You weren't addressing me when you asked the question in a later post about whether making the list and splittng it is a bad idea.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bad idea, but I can see how it could be detrimental because when, "help Timmy with science project" and "find out what Susie wants for Christmas and then scour the world for the last remaining one of those" isn't on the list, things look fair when they aren't.  If the list isn't at least close to comprehensive, it can give a false sense of what each party is actually doing and how "fair" the split is.  And the list is likely to be very far from comprehensive because so much of this isn't stuff most parties think about.

Semi-related:  DH just had a big work milestone with an associated reception  I was helping him think through things (and we were the official hosts), but much of the execution--but not all--was being done by the work admin people.  And I was stressed.  "Do they have coolers for the drinks?  is someone buying ice that morning to put in those coolers?"  These are the types of things that are easy to forget, especially when this is a side project for someone, and that person may have never actually planned an event.  And DH said, "no one is going to judge us if it ends up that the drinks are warm because there's no ice."  And I responded that they wouldn't judge him, but yeah, some people probably would judge me.  The answer is the same for if people show up to a dinner party and the house is a mess, there are dust bunnies under the kitchen table, no one offers them water, and there's nothing for the vegetarian guest to eat.  Subconsciously (or perhaps consciously), people think, "why didn't she have a meat-free option for Jane" or "gee, you'd think she might have straightened up before we came".  So it's easy for a man to be cavalier of the house isn't perfect before company comes, or to dismiss these things, or to feel somewhat resentful that he's being asked to corral dust bunnies pre-party, because he think's a few dust tumbleweeds are NDB.  Because he doesn't experience those things the way she may.  It's not tht she cares more, or at least not *just* that she cares more. It's that those dust bunnies have a different impact on her than they do on him.  Or the warm beverages, or  the missed mother-in-law's birthday.  And who do the bored children on vacation whine to when it turns out the kids' club sucks and there's nothing for them to do?  It's easy for dad to say, "let them figure out out" because the kids aren't tugging on his swimsuit when he's trying to read on the beach.

 (Yes, lots of generalizations here, to illustrate points.)

Hey, I'm glad we're continuing the conversation and things are still civil.  It's a difficult topic and I'm glad we can discuss it with good intentions. 

I absolutely agree with the dynamic you've laid out (and others have mentioned in this thread, too).  There's the explicit list of responsibilities and then there's a whole lot of other unspoken/unstated stuff that just gets lumped onto the woman's part without discussion or acknowledgement. 

What if we added those things to the list, as they came up?  I keep coming back to the list because I think often times men are just dullards when it comes to this stuff.  They need to see it in writing to really get it.

As long as both parties are acting in good faith, I think men can be made to see that they have these blind spots.  But only if you hit them over the head with it.  Like "Look honey, here's 3 things you do and 5, 10, 15 things that I do". 

So then the onus is on the woman to be explicit about about every step and detail required in every activity so that the man will understand what needs to be done?  Isn’t this exactly the issue, that even in trying to even up the gender responsibilities, that women have to take on yet more?  The list would be miles long before every little thing involved in every activity is accounted for.  Hence why women say “never mind, I’ll just do it myself,” and men can remain blissfully oblivious.

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

I think the better approach is that men who want partners just start doing more stuff.  Look at what your kid needs, and do it.  Or look at what your partner is doing, and ask if you can help, handle the rest of it, or take over the responsibility entirely.  And while she needs to be open to letting you do it the way you want to do it, if the task becomes yours, you need to listen if she explains why she does it a certain way or why certain elements are critical.  ("You" being global.)  Because it's not helping if you hand off "packing for the kids", wait until the last minute, and then realize that Sally's swimsuit doesn't ft and someone needs to run to Target because you leave tomorrow, when today was supposed to be spent doing something else.  Men often feel this kind of thing is controlling.  But when you are taking over tasks without the mental context, this is the kind of thing that happens.  And when you aren't used to being the one who deals with the fall out--oh no! the suit someone needs to wear tomorrow needs to be dry cleaned, so now we have to find a quick turn dry cleaner, and add pick up and drop off to the schedule!--then you miss a lot of the details. So you partner isn't being controlling when she tells you that you should lay out the kids outfits this week for Cousin Pat's wedding.  She's understanding the implications and possible complications.

So many times, I hear men say, "I don' offer to help because she doesn't like the way I do it," or versions of that.  And yeah, I think sometimes women do need to meet toward the middle with standards on how the house is kept, etc.  (though remember, people judge the woman when the house is messy, not the man, so it's a lot easier for him to say, "Oh, it's fine".)  But more often, her not liking the way he does it seems to me to be because the way he does it creates more work or more risk.  More work doing a last minute run to buy a swimsuit, or having to entertain the kids on vacation because the 'planner' didn't plan anything for the kids.  More risk because waiting until an hour before your leave for the wedding to pull out the kids' outfits means panicked calls to their similarly sized friends (whose #'s dad doesn't have) to try to find a pair of shoes that fit Timmy and a dress shirt without a stain.  So if she doesn't like the way you do it, sure, maybe that's her being a bit too rigid on the standards.  But maybe there's a reason for it.

And yeah, sometimes it becomes easier for her to just do it than to explain all this (try thinking through it yourself, please!), hound you about it, and then end up dealing with your annoyance at being hounded, and then dealing with the fall out when you didn't think to make sure everyone has the appropriate shoes.  (These are not real examples from my life; I don't even have kids.)

I think the term "weaponized incompetence" is over used and having an annoying moment right now.  And I don't think at lot of this is "weaponized" because it's not intentional.  He's not screwing up getting together the kids; clothes so he doesn't have to do it again.  But he's incompetent enough at it that it becomes harder to her to manage him through it than do it herself.  He need to try to be easier to manage (by thinking ahead, being open to the feedback, and listening).  And she needs to understand that yes, talking him through this takes longer and is frustrating, but that it's in investment in him being able to do it in the future, too.  And I think that's the part where I see a lot of women contribute to the situation.  They don't ant to spend 30 minutes "helping" him do a task they can do in 10, especially because they may not have an extra 20 minutes in their day.  So it's just, "nevermind; I'll do it".  Using the extra time now is in investment in leveling the playing field (or working field, I suppose) going forward. 

Also, men can more easily take on stuff that needs less thinking through.  Go scrub the toilet so your wife can pack for the kids, if that feel fair for her and is faster for everyone.

And yeah, just look around.  If your partner is working on house and life and kids stuff and you aren't, there's probably an imbalance.  Do something about it, and something specific, which is *not* asking, "can I help with something?".  It's standing up and saying, "Oh, I'll strip the beds you were abot to go up and do.  In fact, why don't I just make this my responsibility going forward. I'll do it every Tuesday after my pickleball game, if that works.  That way, I have a set day and routine, and you won't have to remind me that this is my chore now."

The man paying attention and taking on tasks I think that makes sense. 

It's interesting, as you were working through the examples, it reminded me of some of the places I used to work.  Everyone was in 'firefighting mode' because there were too many things on fire and not enough people to even deal with the front line work of getting the fires put out, and certainly not enough to work on fixing the actual causes of those fires. 

In that environment (everyone is stressed, everyone is time constrained), the most competent people took on the large majority of the workload because it was easier and faster to 'just do it' than to explain it to someone less competent. 

You mention this exact dynamic and I wonder if it is more prevalent nowadays when we have very much over-scheduled lives.  Wives don't have time to spend 30 minutes teaching a task to their husbands and thus are stuck doing the 10 minute task themselves, forever. 

Re: men's incompetence, it's just an excuse/act on the men's part, I think.  Because if their wife died, the man would be forced to take on ALL the household work and would quickly adapt to it.  He might stumble around a bit at first but he'd learn, he'd have to. 

[Metalcat]

Although I look at divorce statistics and 50% of marriages end in divorce.  Even the people that I know that manage to stay married: most are not exactly happy.

I know unhappy married couples, and plenty of people who have been divorced.  But I also know quite a few very happy married couples (and I'd count my own marriage in this pile).  Not sure the 'most are not exactly happy' characterization holds true.  From the studies I've seen this also holds true, married people pretty consistently report higher feelings of happiness than unmarried folks.

There's a bit of a selection bias at work there though, in a society that so heavily pressures people to pair up in marriage, the majority of folks who are single haven't historically been single by choice.

So any study that measures: folks who got what they aimed to get vs folks who didn't get what they aimed to get, is going to show higher self-reported happiness scores for the first group.

Also factor in that a lot of single people *were* married and experienced bad marriages, which is highly likely to lower happiness scores.

I personally very, very rarely meet couples whose marriages make me feel comfortable and at ease. Once you train yourself to recognize signs of contempt, marriages often look a lot uglier than they seem on the surface.

It's a bit like wearing They Live glasses.

ETA: I also find folks in healthy marriages radically overestimate how common happy marriages are. Because they have a hard time grasping how people even end up in them, it's seems irrational to them that they even exist in the first place. Like, sure, they know they exist, but only in theory, they have a really hard time grasping what it looks like for a toxic couple to fall in love, have a seemingly normal life, and just be a toxic sewage dump underneath.

[Tyson]

Although I look at divorce statistics and 50% of marriages end in divorce.  Even the people that I know that manage to stay married: most are not exactly happy.

I know unhappy married couples, and plenty of people who have been divorced.  But I also know quite a few very happy married couples (and I'd count my own marriage in this pile).  Not sure the 'most are not exactly happy' characterization holds true.  From the studies I've seen this also holds true, married people pretty consistently report higher feelings of happiness than unmarried folks.

There's a bit of a selection bias at work there though, in a society that so heavily pressures people to pair up in marriage, the majority of folks who are single haven't historically been single by choice.

So any study that measures: folks who got what they aimed to get vs folks who didn't get what they aimed to get, is going to show higher self-reported happiness scores for the first group.

Also factor in that a lot of single people *were* married and experienced bad marriages, which is highly likely to lower happiness scores.

I personally very, very rarely meet couples whose marriages make me feel comfortable and at ease. Once you train yourself to recognize signs of contempt, marriages often look a lot uglier than they seem on the surface.

It's a bit like wearing They Live glasses.

Yep that matches my experiences too.  I am an alcoholic (sober for a while now) and every week I go to group.  What I see quite often is that marriages are held together by alcohol.  And very often when one person stops drinking, the marriage falls apart.  Which was quite counter-intuitive for me because I assumed that when 1 person got healthy, it would lead to a happier relationship.  But that almost never happens.  Almost always it's the beginning of the end of the relationship.

[GuitarStv]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

[Tyson]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

The stats are pretty clear man.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  Of the 50% that make it, obviously they are not all happy.  Let's be generous and say half of those 'survivor' marraiges are actually happy. 

If being happy is the thing we're trying to get, then marriage has a 75% failure rate.  That's actually quite terrible.

And it's not like 2nd marriages fare any better.  Divorce rate of 2nd marriages is over 60%.  And for 3rd marriages, divorce rate is 73%. 

[PoutineLover]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

The stats are pretty clear man.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  Of the 50% that make it, obviously they are not all happy.  Let's be generous and say half of those 'survivor' marraiges are actually happy. 

If being happy is the thing we're trying to get, then marriage has a 75% failure rate.  That's actually quite terrible.

And it's not like 2nd marriages fare any better.  Divorce rate of 2nd marriages is over 60%.  And for 3rd marriages, divorce rate is 73%. 

I wonder if the higher rate of divorce is because people who have already divorced have a lower threshold for divorce, having already done it, or if they are less well suited for marriage in the first place, or something else.

I can't really talk yet because I've only been married a year (together for 7 though) but my marriage is happy and fairly equitable, although we definitely have a certain division of tasks that kind of naturally developed. We said when we first started living together that if it takes 100% of the effort to keep a household going, as long as we are each aiming for 60%, it'll get done. So we both try to do our share and pick up some extra slack and when one of us needs a break, the other can compensate, and overall I don't think that either of us feels like the other person is taking advantage or coasting.

I see a lot of less healthy relationships out there and I'm grateful to have a male partner who proactively does his share, but I also know that I selected for that, and wouldn't have (and didn't) marry someone who wasn't like that. So it's both that women need to have higher standards, and men need to step up (and not ask for handholding to do it).

[jeninco]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

100% agree here, but it has to be a partner who wants these things: to be an equal partner in a relationship, to honor and respect your wishes, to treat you as an actual whole human being who has agency and decides every day to stay with them. And the other way around: is this someone I want to support through good times and bad? (I'm pretty happily married, so my answer is "heck yeah!" But I met an awesome guy, who's been an amazing partner.)

[Kris]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

The stats are pretty clear man.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  Of the 50% that make it, obviously they are not all happy.  Let's be generous and say half of those 'survivor' marraiges are actually happy. 

If being happy is the thing we're trying to get, then marriage has a 75% failure rate.  That's actually quite terrible.

And it's not like 2nd marriages fare any better.  Divorce rate of 2nd marriages is over 60%.  And for 3rd marriages, divorce rate is 73%. 

I wonder if the higher rate of divorce is because people who have already divorced have a lower threshold for divorce, having already done it, or if they are less well suited for marriage in the first place, or something else.

I can't really talk yet because I've only been married a year (together for 7 though) but my marriage is happy and fairly equitable, although we definitely have a certain division of tasks that kind of naturally developed. We said when we first started living together that if it takes 100% of the effort to keep a household going, as long as we are each aiming for 60%, it'll get done. So we both try to do our share and pick up some extra slack and when one of us needs a break, the other can compensate, and overall I don't think that either of us feels like the other person is taking advantage or coasting.

I see a lot of less healthy relationships out there and I'm grateful to have a male partner who proactively does his share, but I also know that I selected for that, and wouldn't have (and didn't) marry someone who wasn't like that. So it's both that women need to have higher standards, and men need to step up (and not ask for handholding to do it).

I'm pretty sure some of it has to do with having children from previous marriages, and the stress of having ex-spouses in the mix affecting the dynamic.

[LennStar]

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

What is "clean"?

[Metalcat]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

Dude...you're generally pretty good at critical reasoning.

You just described a *healthy* marriage. We're not talking about healthy marriages.

[partgypsy]

As far as resolving things through verbal communication. Yes that's true. But also healthy and normal To know when to pick your battles, and not constantly fight over stuff that maybe is a difference in priorities. The problem is, people need to appreciate the other person, what they are doing and bringing to the table, show appreciation, and respect them. It's not usually, I need to help the kids with their homework and do all the phone calls. It's usually those big things (respect, appreciation, also communication) that are lacking. Anyways I've given this a lot of thought bc my marriage broke up. I didn't mind doing more in a number of areas. But doing them AND not feeling respected or appreciated was the kicker. As an example I did all the Xmas shopping even for his side, his gift for his mom on mother's day etc.  I didn't mind, maybe I even liked it. After we broke up, I was, I'm not buying gifts from you to your family anymore. After a couple years his family ended up completely changing the gift policy bc his inability to step up. 

[RetiredAt63]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

Dude...you're generally pretty good at critical reasoning.

You just described a *healthy* marriage. We're not talking about healthy marriages.

Exactly.  I'm divorced, lots of reasons.

One reason - One year I got stuck with the long form census, and part of it was how I spent my time.  Ex looked at it and said something along the lines of "you do all that?"  Which yes, I did.  It was invisible labour to him. But that didn't mean he stepped up to do more.

There is a whole meta thread on line somewhere about emotional labour.

But at this point I have a simpler measurement - do both partners have an equal amount of free time?  And I mean away from home (or home but not to be disturbed), no responsibilities, the other partner is keeping things going.  Not like one person is out of the house doing a hobby and the other is doing something that is a hobby but is on call (kids, putting the wash in the dryer, waiting for a repair person, etc.) - because that is not true free time. 

[Psychstache]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

The stats are pretty clear man.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  Of the 50% that make it, obviously they are not all happy.  Let's be generous and say half of those 'survivor' marraiges are actually happy. 

If being happy is the thing we're trying to get, then marriage has a 75% failure rate.  That's actually quite terrible.

And it's not like 2nd marriages fare any better.  Divorce rate of 2nd marriages is over 60%.  And for 3rd marriages, divorce rate is 73%.

FYI the often quoted 50% rate is for ALL marriages, since you are breaking it out. 1st marriages are estimated to have around a 40% divorce rate.

[Metalcat]

As far as resolving things through verbal communication. Yes that's true. But also healthy and normal To know when to pick your battles, and not constantly fight over stuff that maybe is a difference in priorities. The problem is, people need to appreciate the other person, what they are doing and bringing to the table, show appreciation, and respect them. It's not usually, I need to help the kids with their homework and do all the phone calls. It's usually those big things (respect, appreciation, also communication) that are the real issue.

I think folks are also really understanding how poorly many married couples actually know each other.

I'll put it in terms that MMM folks are more likely to resonate with.

It's not unusual for married couples to have never, ever talked about their finances. They make massive financial decisions together without having a fucking clue what their actual financial situation is, how much money the other has, what each others financial values and goals are. They just don't know massive ideological/structural/practical/emotional aspects of the person they share a life with.

This is not at all abnormal.

A lot of marriages depend on "falling into" gender roles for daily function, as someone else described above, instead of ever doing any real communication or critical analysis of their circumstances.

Many couples literally just don't really know each other very well and don't really have to the tools to do so either. Much less navigate complex interpersonal dynamics with advanced conflict skills.

[Villanelle]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

When people say the very common "marriage is hard" platitude, I don't dare disagree.  But honestly?  Mine isn't.  It was the first couple of years, when we were figuring out how to be a partnership, and also who we were.  (We maybe would have been better off waiting  couple years to marry.  We were pretty young--25/6.)  And our adaptation was made more difficult with a 9 month deployment right in the middle of us trying to establish our patterns and understanding of each other and marriage.  But after the first few years when we had settled in?  It's not hard. I won't say that it's effortless because that probably diminishes the choices we each make and our commitment to being good to each other.  But I don't think it's hard at all.

And I can't imagine what my life would be without DH as my partner.  I can't imagine having the same level of happiness, or the same level of quiet satisfaction. 

But I look at the marriages around me, many of which are 20+years old, and I see this in very few of them. It surprises me--though as often as it happens, it shouldn't--how often contempt drips into conversations about spouses.  I recall a friend, married about 20 years saying to me, "I wish my DH would just grow some balls and stand up to his mommy."  I think her complaints about his choices were perfectly valid--that shit would have annoyed me and I'd have probably vented about it.  But that language was so uncomfortable for me.  But that kind of thing happens pretty often.  I can't imagine ever speaking about DH that way. 

[Villanelle]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

The stats are pretty clear man.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  Of the 50% that make it, obviously they are not all happy.  Let's be generous and say half of those 'survivor' marraiges are actually happy. 

If being happy is the thing we're trying to get, then marriage has a 75% failure rate.  That's actually quite terrible.

And it's not like 2nd marriages fare any better.  Divorce rate of 2nd marriages is over 60%.  And for 3rd marriages, divorce rate is 73%.

I attribute some of this to people being bad pickers.  If you were bad at picking your first spouse, it makes sense that you are probably still bad at picking, when you choose your next spouse. 

[merula]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

I hope that your personal situation is just @Metalcat 's point that people in healthy marriages have a hard time understanding bad marriages.

My cynical take is that there are a lot more women than men who are willing and able to help their partner work through life's problems, and view their partner's success as their own. I don't count on my husband to help me with as much stuff as he counts on my help for, and that's despite him being a SAHD and me being the sole breadwinner. We have our own spheres to some extent, but it's still less mutual support than I would view as ideal. (Disability is a major complicating factor in our personal situation, though.)

I think there are a lot of bad hetero marriages where the man is perfectly happy with the status quo and the woman is floundering.

[Sibley]

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

Be a responsible adult and figure it out. Children aren't aware, children require lists and supervision and handholding. Adults don't.

Pay attention to the world around you, notice what needs to be done and do it.

[jrhampt]

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

Be a responsible adult and figure it out. Children aren't aware, children require lists and supervision and handholding. Adults don't.

Pay attention to the world around you, notice what needs to be done and do it.

The secret is that you have to CARE.  If you're in a job, do you only do the things you are explicitly told to do and nothing more?  Or do you have initiative?  Do you try to make things better and solve problems?  Do you notice when something needs to be done and volunteer to do it or anticipate that when a person asks for one thing, they actually need that thing plus a couple of other things?  If more men treated home more like they do their careers, they would be fine.  This is what adults do.

[wenchsenior]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

When people say the very common "marriage is hard" platitude, I don't dare disagree.  But honestly?  Mine isn't.  It was the first couple of years, when we were figuring out how to be a partnership, and also who we were.  (We maybe would have been better off waiting  couple years to marry.  We were pretty young--25/6.)  And our adaptation was made more difficult with a 9 month deployment right in the middle of us trying to establish our patterns and understanding of each other and marriage.  But after the first few years when we had settled in?  It's not hard. I won't say that it's effortless because that probably diminishes the choices we each make and our commitment to being good to each other.  But I don't think it's hard at all.

And I can't imagine what my life would be without DH as my partner.  I can't imagine having the same level of happiness, or the same level of quiet satisfaction. 

But I look at the marriages around me, many of which are 20+years old, and I see this in very few of them. It surprises me--though as often as it happens, it shouldn't--how often contempt drips into conversations about spouses.  I recall a friend, married about 20 years saying to me, "I wish my DH would just grow some balls and stand up to his mommy."  I think her complaints about his choices were perfectly valid--that shit would have annoyed me and I'd have probably vented about it.  But that language was so uncomfortable for me.  But that kind of thing happens pretty often.  I can't imagine ever speaking about DH that way.

I've had a similar situation, just really really happy in my long marriage (that isn't the same as not experiencing any very tough patches, there have been several).

But  I do think I overestimate how happy and well-functioning other peoples' partnerships might be. On the other hand, I also note that most of the people who I would categorize as having relationship troubles on a consistent basis just broke up and stayed single or went on to have much happier relationships. So maybe my sample just hasn't included many 'coupled but unhappy' people.

[GuitarStv]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

The stats are pretty clear man.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  Of the 50% that make it, obviously they are not all happy.  Let's be generous and say half of those 'survivor' marriages are actually happy. 

If being happy is the thing we're trying to get, then marriage has a 75% failure rate.  That's actually quite terrible.

And it's not like 2nd marriages fare any better.  Divorce rate of 2nd marriages is over 60%.  And for 3rd marriages, divorce rate is 73%.

I think you're missing at least one important piece from the above.  What percentage of single people are happy?

[Sibley]

Re: men's incompetence, it's just an excuse/act on the men's part, I think.  Because if their wife died, the man would be forced to take on ALL the household work and would quickly adapt to it.  He might stumble around a bit at first but he'd learn, he'd have to.

This is a real issue at times. If a spouse dies or become incapacitated it's not uncommon for the surviving spouse to really struggle with whatever their spouse had been doing. It's most obvious in the elderly. So, a man who's wife died and she always did the cooking and cleaning - him losing weight because he's not feeding himself well is a thing that really does happen. It's something that caretakers/family really do need to watch for, because those are tasks that might need to be picked up by others.

[Sibley]

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

Be a responsible adult and figure it out. Children aren't aware, children require lists and supervision and handholding. Adults don't.

Pay attention to the world around you, notice what needs to be done and do it.

The secret is that you have to CARE.  If you're in a job, do you only do the things you are explicitly told to do and nothing more?  Or do you have initiative?  Do you try to make things better and solve problems?  Do you notice when something needs to be done and volunteer to do it or anticipate that when a person asks for one thing, they actually need that thing plus a couple of other things?  If more men treated home more like they do their careers, they would be fine.  This is what adults do.

And if a man isn't willing care, then he can suffer the consequences of his not caring. Which may include women not being interested in a relationship with him.

[former player]

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

The stats are pretty clear man.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  Of the 50% that make it, obviously they are not all happy.  Let's be generous and say half of those 'survivor' marriages are actually happy. 

If being happy is the thing we're trying to get, then marriage has a 75% failure rate.  That's actually quite terrible.

And it's not like 2nd marriages fare any better.  Divorce rate of 2nd marriages is over 60%.  And for 3rd marriages, divorce rate is 73%.

I think you're missing at least one important piece from the above.  What percentage of single people are happy?

I have a lot of older women friends, most of whom are either widowed or divorced, all of whom say they are happy with their lives (subject to the usual physical niggles of getting older) and none of whom have any interest in remarrying,

[Tyson]

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

Be a responsible adult and figure it out. Children aren't aware, children require lists and supervision and handholding. Adults don't.

Pay attention to the world around you, notice what needs to be done and do it.

The secret is that you have to CARE.  If you're in a job, do you only do the things you are explicitly told to do and nothing more?  Or do you have initiative?  Do you try to make things better and solve problems?  Do you notice when something needs to be done and volunteer to do it or anticipate that when a person asks for one thing, they actually need that thing plus a couple of other things?  If more men treated home more like they do their careers, they would be fine.  This is what adults do.

And if a man isn't willing care, then he can suffer the consequences of his not caring. Which may include women not being interested in a relationship with him.

I guess my original question was more about "In a healthy relationship, where a man does care, but the woman feels unseen or unappreciated, what is the best way to address his blind spot"?

I dunno.  Having a partner who you can work through all of life's problems with rather than trying to go it your own.  Helping someone else to grow as they help you, and working for their success as well as your own.  Sharing in all your wins together.  I'm a pretty average guy and marriage brings so much happiness to my life, it's hard for me to buy the idea that having a happy marriage is super rare.

The stats are pretty clear man.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  Of the 50% that make it, obviously they are not all happy.  Let's be generous and say half of those 'survivor' marriages are actually happy. 

If being happy is the thing we're trying to get, then marriage has a 75% failure rate.  That's actually quite terrible.

And it's not like 2nd marriages fare any better.  Divorce rate of 2nd marriages is over 60%.  And for 3rd marriages, divorce rate is 73%.

I think you're missing at least one important piece from the above.  What percentage of single people are happy?

My wife left me for another guy after 23 years of marriage.  23 years of a reasonably happy marriage.  Completely blindsided me. 

Here on MMM we are all a bunch of systemic thinkers who constantly work on optimizing.  We think that if we just do all the right things, we can end up with a good outcome. 

I found out, up close and personal, it's possible to do everything right, and still lose. 

So, I just focus on being a good dad and I will never, ever entrust my heart to another woman, let alone get married again. 

I know that makes me sound bitter, but I'm really not.  Because after about 5 years of being divorced, I discovered that I really, really like being single.  I'm actually much happier now than I ever was before.

[Villanelle]

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

Be a responsible adult and figure it out. Children aren't aware, children require lists and supervision and handholding. Adults don't.

Pay attention to the world around you, notice what needs to be done and do it.

The secret is that you have to CARE.  If you're in a job, do you only do the things you are explicitly told to do and nothing more?  Or do you have initiative?  Do you try to make things better and solve problems?  Do you notice when something needs to be done and volunteer to do it or anticipate that when a person asks for one thing, they actually need that thing plus a couple of other things?  If more men treated home more like they do their careers, they would be fine.  This is what adults do.

And if a man isn't willing care, then he can suffer the consequences of his not caring. Which may include women not being interested in a relationship with him.

Yes.  This puts us right back into the conversation point of women being "done" with men, and men not being able to find partners.  It's either not that important to them to couple up (and/or have kids), or it is.  And if it is, then it should be important enough for them to actually be mindful, thoughtful, conscientious, forward-thinking adults.  So, if you want it, be/do better and more.  And if you don't want it that much, then acknowledge that you are making a choice.  Women are quitting on you; you are opting out of the pool of reasonably desirable partners for many women. 

Because none of this stuff are things that women are inherently more suited to do.  We aren't talking about growing a fetus or breastfeeding.  We are talking about thinking, when you plan an international trip 6 months out, whether the passports have sufficient time before expiry and noting when you are almost out of dish soap and writing grandma's birthday on the calendar (and setting an electronic reminder to ping a week before so you can buy a card and sent it, if that's how you acknowledge the occasion).  And it's about deciding to go to a pediatrician's appointment so you know their name and where they are located.  And about tracking the dog's vaccinations so you know when they are due, and scheduling the appointment to get the new ones *before* the old ones expire so they aren't booted out of daycare, with no alternative plan, creating an emergency.  None of these tasks are made more difficult by having a penis or a Y chromosome. 

And if you've opted out of most of this, you may think your spouse is okay with it, but there's a decent chance she's not.  So many men are "shocked and blindsided" when their female partners ask for a divorce.  They thought everything was fine, but beneath the water, their wive's duck feet were paddling a million miles an hour. And it's reach the point that while being a divorced parent is hard, they figure it's actually easier and better.  So your spouse may not be okay.  They've just stopped asking because it never worked, and you've made it so it's even more work for them to get help than just do it themselves. 

So even if you've found a partner, you still might want to think about opting into some of this stuff.  And doing so in a way that creates as little additional work for your partner as possible. 

Because again, I see a lot of men who get divorce "sprung" on them--often shortly after the kids leave the house or hit their more independent years.  And a fair number of those relationships might have been salvageable if the guys hadn't proudly said, "I emptied the dishwasher!" as though they deserved thanks for it.  There are a lot of shitty marriages out there, and I think a surprising number of them have one partner who has no idea their relationship is among those. 

(ETA: I typed this before the last post, even though it now seems like a response to that, or a dig, which it was not.  But it's a pretty interesting confluence of sentiments.)

[RetiredAt63]

Not aimed at Tyson either -  it's a standard story - a husband complains that his wife nags, the wife gives up, husband is happy when wife stops nagging, is blindsided when wife leaves - she tried to get through to him, she failed, she gave up, she left.

That was basically my story, Ex did all the standard stuff (one minor example - since when was it my job to take his car in for the tire change when I had already done my car?), I told him in many different ways that I was unhappy and things needed to change, nothing changed (or at least changed a bit for a little while and then back to status quo ante), I gave up and made plans, he was shocked, totally shocked, truly shocked, I tell you, when I left.


I do have some very happily married friends - when you see them together and then you see others, the bad marriages are pretty obvious.  And talking with friends, most women are so determined to have that happy marriage that they stay in the bad one much longer than they should.  I'm certainly guilty of that.

Being single is not always fun, but it sure beats being in a bad marriage.  Being alone is way better than lonely in a bad marriage.

[Tyson]

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

Be a responsible adult and figure it out. Children aren't aware, children require lists and supervision and handholding. Adults don't.

Pay attention to the world around you, notice what needs to be done and do it.

The secret is that you have to CARE.  If you're in a job, do you only do the things you are explicitly told to do and nothing more?  Or do you have initiative?  Do you try to make things better and solve problems?  Do you notice when something needs to be done and volunteer to do it or anticipate that when a person asks for one thing, they actually need that thing plus a couple of other things?  If more men treated home more like they do their careers, they would be fine.  This is what adults do.

And if a man isn't willing care, then he can suffer the consequences of his not caring. Which may include women not being interested in a relationship with him.

Yes.  This puts us right back into the conversation point of women being "done" with men, and men not being able to find partners.  It's either not that important to them to couple up (and/or have kids), or it is.  And if it is, then it should be important enough for them to actually be mindful, thoughtful, conscientious, forward-thinking adults.  So, if you want it, be/do better and more.  And if you don't want it that much, then acknowledge that you are making a choice.  Women are quitting on you; you are opting out of the pool of reasonably desirable partners for many women. 

Because none of this stuff are things that women are inherently more suited to do.  We aren't talking about growing a fetus or breastfeeding.  We are talking about thinking, when you plan an international trip 6 months out, whether the passports have sufficient time before expiry and noting when you are almost out of dish soap and writing grandma's birthday on the calendar (and setting an electronic reminder to ping a week before so you can buy a card and sent it, if that's how you acknowledge the occasion).  And it's about deciding to go to a pediatrician's appointment so you know their name and where they are located.  And about tracking the dog's vaccinations so you know when they are due, and scheduling the appointment to get the new ones *before* the old ones expire so they aren't booted out of daycare, with no alternative plan, creating an emergency.  None of these tasks are made more difficult by having a penis or a Y chromosome. 

And if you've opted out of most of this, you may think your spouse is okay with it, but there's a decent chance she's not.  So many men are "shocked and blindsided" when their female partners ask for a divorce.  They thought everything was fine, but beneath the water, their wive's duck feet were paddling a million miles an hour. And it's reach the point that while being a divorced parent is hard, they figure it's actually easier and better.  So your spouse may not be okay.  They've just stopped asking because it never worked, and you've made it so it's even more work for them to get help than just do it themselves. 

So even if you've found a partner, you still might want to think about opting into some of this stuff.  And doing so in a way that creates as little additional work for your partner as possible. 

Because again, I see a lot of men who get divorce "sprung" on them--often shortly after the kids leave the house or hit their more independent years.  And a fair number of those relationships might have been salvageable if the guys hadn't proudly said, "I emptied the dishwasher!" as though they deserved thanks for it.  There are a lot of shitty marriages out there, and I think a surprising number of them have one partner who has no idea their relationship is among those. 

(ETA: I typed this before the last post, even though it now seems like a response to that, or a dig, which it was not.  But it's a pretty interesting confluence of sentiments.)

Actually I think my marriage was a bit of an anomaly.  Mostly because I worked from home 100% of the time, so almost all household chores and childcare duties were things I did.  I mean, I was right there, all the time so it was just faster/easier for me to do all the household work.  Laundry?  Check.  Helping with homework?  Check.  House cleaning?  Check.  Putting things away and tidying up?  Check.  Planning vacations?  Check.  Shopping for food?  Check.  Cooking?  Check.  Doing all the birthday party stuff?  Check.  Work full time and being the higher earner?  Check.  Taking care of the dog full time?  Check.  Respect my partner?  Check.  Pay attention to her needs?  Check. 

I did all the things.  Still failed. 

I think a big part of the reason I thrived as a single dad is because I was already doing all the things.  Transitioning to doing all the things while single was no different than when I was doing all the things while married.  In some ways it was actually easier because now I'm only cleaning up after myself and my son (who I have 50% of the time). 

Really I think we just grew apart and there probably was no way to save the marriage.  Even though I tried my best to make it work, over a long period of time.  It was probably just doomed. 

[Sibley]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

[Tyson]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

Except in my case, she was the one the left the dishes by the sink.  And I cleaned them.  I was also the one that cooked the meal and I was also the one that shopped for the food and I was also the one that cleaned out the dishwasher the next day. 

[Metalcat]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

Except in my case, she was the one the left the dishes by the sink.  And I cleaned them.  I was also the one that cooked the meal and I was also the one that shopped for the food and I was also the one that cleaned out the dishwasher the next day.

I don't think anyone here is equipped to offer any explanation why your marriage didn't work out if you don't even know what caused the downfall.

But there are a hell of a lot more issues that can plague a marriage than just domestic labour division.

[Tyson]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

Except in my case, she was the one the left the dishes by the sink.  And I cleaned them.  I was also the one that cooked the meal and I was also the one that shopped for the food and I was also the one that cleaned out the dishwasher the next day.

I don't think anyone here is equipped to offer any explanation why your marriage didn't work out if you don't even know what caused the downfall.

But there are a hell of a lot more issues that can plague a marriage than just domestic labour division.

Yeah, it's been 6 years and really this is the first time I'm feeling comfortable talking about it at this depth.  Before it was just too fucking painful.  I think I'm at a point now where I can actually talk to her about it directly and maybe get some closure on this.

Also, I appreciate everyone's patience as I think through some of this stuff, here.

[Metalcat]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

Except in my case, she was the one the left the dishes by the sink.  And I cleaned them.  I was also the one that cooked the meal and I was also the one that shopped for the food and I was also the one that cleaned out the dishwasher the next day.

I don't think anyone here is equipped to offer any explanation why your marriage didn't work out if you don't even know what caused the downfall.

But there are a hell of a lot more issues that can plague a marriage than just domestic labour division.

Yeah, it's been 6 years and really this is the first time I'm feeling comfortable talking about it at this depth.  Before it was just too fucking painful.  I think I'm at a point now where I can actually talk to her about it directly and maybe get some closure on this.

Also, I appreciate everyone's patience as I think through some of this stuff, here.

My journal is a great place for folks to talk through emotional stuff. That's kind of what we do there. Feel free to join and a group of ultra insightful folks will be happy to talk through it with you.

[Sibley]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

Except in my case, she was the one the left the dishes by the sink.  And I cleaned them.  I was also the one that cooked the meal and I was also the one that shopped for the food and I was also the one that cleaned out the dishwasher the next day.

I suspect that you may not be the target audience for that article. FTR, I posted it because I thought it was relevant to the thread. I didn't post it to you specifically.

[Villanelle]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

Except in my case, she was the one the left the dishes by the sink.  And I cleaned them.  I was also the one that cooked the meal and I was also the one that shopped for the food and I was also the one that cleaned out the dishwasher the next day.

I'm speaking about generalities.  There are all sorts of good and bad relationships.  They fail and succeed and coast for many reasons.  What I'm saying may not apply to you and your situation.  If you've done some honest soul searching and this stuff doesn't resonate, great.  It's a general conversation about common patterns, not an evaluation of why ever--or your--relationship failed. 

~~~
I think the article about the glass is interesting.  I think there's a lot of truth there, but to he fair to the men, I do think a partner also needs to flex, and look at the bigger picture (which the writer's wife may well have done).

DH does this thing:  we keep dish towels hung on the handle of the oven.  When I dry my hands on them, I reach over, rub my hands around on the towel, and that's it.  He feels the need to take the towel off the handle.  Okay, fine, though a bit mystifying.  But he dries his hands, then flings the towel into a heap on the counter.

It's annoying.  It means when I reach for the towel with dripping hands, it's not there.  And I'm frequently picking up a crumpled heap of towel and rehanging it.  And it doesn't even need to be removed from its hanging space in the first place.  But if he does pull it off the handle, he could rehang it 6 seconds later when his hands are dry.  But nope: counter pile. 

I have worked not to frame this as disrespect.  And I remind myself that I leave dishes soaking, which irritates him, and it's not disrespect.  My role in the relationship is to rehang soggy kitchen towels, and his is to dump pots and bowls full of murky soak-water.  Neither of us relish these roles, but in a strange way, they are at the heart of our partnership. 

Now, the reframing is pretty easy because he does so many other amazing things, and all of those make it clear he respects me.  So the water glass by the sink, or the unhung towel, doesn't become an avatar for his lack of respect.  It's just a damn wet-towel. 

When there are enough good and great things, the small things don't take on these additional hidden meanings.  It's only when you're already feeling disrespected that you can't look past moist towel-piles and sink glasses, or that those things take on more significance. 

[partgypsy]

Ok, so I have a thing about linens. As a treat I buy myself nice dish towels. And they kept getting messed up. I even ended up making 2 bins, one of the nice, and one of the stained and saying if you need a rag, please use these! Don't use these! And both my ex husband, and the guy I saw for 6 years would take the first towel they saw to wipe up gross messes and spills ruining them. I'm not typically an upright person but this bothered me.

[Omy]

Not cool!

I couldn't figure out why all our dish towels had slices in them. Turns out DH was drying the good knives a bit vigorously. Hard to complain when he's washing and drying dishes...

[Captain FIRE]

And a fair number of those relationships might have been salvageable if the guys hadn't proudly said, "I emptied the dishwasher!" as though they deserved thanks for it.

Oh, this! Ok people covered a lot of the mental load well (though no one dropped this: https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ so I will, and here's one on the annoyance of the expectation that the woman will be the kin-keeper: https://www.scarymommy.com/parenting/kin-keeper-explained-tiktok). But this is so frustrating. You're in partnership, and it should not be "husbands helping their wives". (Worse is when the dad refers to watching his own kids as babysitting.) You praise 4 years for everything helpful they do, not create a one-direction praise channel for grown adults.

[Tyson]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

Except in my case, she was the one the left the dishes by the sink.  And I cleaned them.  I was also the one that cooked the meal and I was also the one that shopped for the food and I was also the one that cleaned out the dishwasher the next day.

I don't think anyone here is equipped to offer any explanation why your marriage didn't work out if you don't even know what caused the downfall.

But there are a hell of a lot more issues that can plague a marriage than just domestic labour division.

Yeah, it's been 6 years and really this is the first time I'm feeling comfortable talking about it at this depth.  Before it was just too fucking painful.  I think I'm at a point now where I can actually talk to her about it directly and maybe get some closure on this.

Also, I appreciate everyone's patience as I think through some of this stuff, here.

My journal is a great place for folks to talk through emotional stuff. That's kind of what we do there. Feel free to join and a group of ultra insightful folks will be happy to talk through it with you.

Thank you so much for the invite.  I did take a look and I almost posted there, it's pretty lively!  But I think I've realized that I need to do something much more difficult.  Start my own journal.  Which is actually terrifying to me.  Heh, maybe I'll make that the title. 

[Ron Scott]

Many years ago, maybe in the ‘90s, there was some good research on failed female-male relationships and divorce that showed sex, drugs/alcohol, and money problems to be at the heart of more than 90% of the breakups.

I wonder if this has changed.

[curious_george]

This is a classic article.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

There's others that are also very good, but in the moment this one came to mind and I could google it.

Except in my case, she was the one the left the dishes by the sink.  And I cleaned them.  I was also the one that cooked the meal and I was also the one that shopped for the food and I was also the one that cleaned out the dishwasher the next day.

I don't think anyone here is equipped to offer any explanation why your marriage didn't work out if you don't even know what caused the downfall.

But there are a hell of a lot more issues that can plague a marriage than just domestic labour division.

Yeah, it's been 6 years and really this is the first time I'm feeling comfortable talking about it at this depth.  Before it was just too fucking painful.  I think I'm at a point now where I can actually talk to her about it directly and maybe get some closure on this.

Also, I appreciate everyone's patience as I think through some of this stuff, here.

My journal is a great place for folks to talk through emotional stuff. That's kind of what we do there. Feel free to join and a group of ultra insightful folks will be happy to talk through it with you.

Thank you so much for the invite.  I did take a look and I almost posted there, it's pretty lively!  But I think I've realized that I need to do something much more difficult.  Start my own journal.  Which is actually terrifying to me.  Heh, maybe I'll make that the title.

You should do it!

Also just wanted to second that if you're not comfortable starting your own journal Metalcats journal is an awesome resource here to chat about feelings and things.

There are several men who talk about our feelings there also ( I am one of them) and it was...definitely uncomfortable for me at first.

You'll receive tons of insight and support from a lot of different people.

[former player]

Many years ago, maybe in the ‘90s, there was some good research on failed female-male relationships and divorce that showed sex, drugs/alcohol, and money problems to be at the heart of more than 90% of the breakups.

I wonder if this has changed.

You could add internet porn to that list now.