Are women done with men?

[waltworks]

To be fair, I've been the only dude in a group project situation (in graduate school!) and ended up doing most of the work.

It's not (IMO) particularly a gender thing when we're talking about the FIRE crowd. Nobody here would accept getting a crap grade when they could take over the project and make it good.

-W

[GuitarStv]

Earlier in the thread there are several posts referring to males who watch tiktok, porn and play video games as "losers" just getting their dopamine hits... I'm curious as to why these are "loser" activities and what are the "winner" activities for these folks?

These are all non-productive and anti-social activities.

Video games are fine in small doses, but there are enough people who have problems with mild to serious addiction related to them that they can't really be thought of as completely benign.  There's evidence that porn usage is bad for both men and women due to the unrealistic depictions of sex, women and women's roles, addiction again (seems to be largely a problem for men), and desensitization leading to difficulty maintaining healthy sexual relationships.  Again, in small doses probably not a huge problem, but difficult to sell as something truly great.  Ignoring the Chinese problem (jury's out on how significant a problem that is - seems to range from minor to serious) but the app is directly linked to shorter attention spans, security vulnerabilities, and a whole variety of worrisome content that is pushed by it's algorithms to users (like all forms of social media).

I'd argue that these are all loser activities, and that 'winner' activities tend to be more productive.  Exercising to improve your body, reading/learning about something to improve your mind, becoming more socially active would be a few examples.

[Captain FIRE]

I'll give the counterviewpoint. I was thrilled in college when I had group members pulling their weight. I was amazed at how great group work could be when that happened. (FWIW, that was also terrible experiences at the same time, because when group projects fail afterwards, you know how much better it can be.)

Up until that point, yeah I did far more than my share. Not sure it was gender related though. (I'm female.) Other people just didn't care much or enough. Anyways I think both things can be true - mustachians probably did more than their fair share throughout schooling and such, and women generally get left doing than their share.

[waltworks]

Yes, to be clear, I think women in general get asked to do more than their share of work, especially domestic work, and especially the sort of planning/organizing/making sure everyone has food for lunch kind of stuff that many men manage to take for granted as if having enough bread for everyone's sandwich happens by happy accident.

My quibble is with the anecdotes, because the MMM forum is not even vaguely representative of the real world. All of us are goal-oriented nerds, so when something like having to do most of the work on a group project happens to us, it means absolutely nothing except that we're type-A nerds and mostly everyone else is not.

In terms of kids (remember, elementary school) who I think to myself, "This kid is going to invent something cool or be operating on me someday or something", there's not much correlation with gender. It's the, "This kid is going to be a competent middle manager at the bank and make a decent living" level where there are just no boys that seem like they're going to be able to manage it, and lots of girls.

Then when you get to the sort of hopeless cases (which is a terrible thing to say about elementary school kids but any honest teacher will tell you that for a lot of them, the die is cast already at that age), it's majority boys.

-W

[LennStar]

I would guess almost everyone on this forum (male and female) was the member in their group project that just did all the work and got mad at the freeloaders. Low-achieving freeloaders aren't exactly the type to strive for FIRE.

Second this statement....

Yeah. One reason I hated group projects im school. The other was that they would all... let's call it socializing so much before anything started.

And it was certainly the girl groups that started faster. So much for "girls just talk".

[Ron Scott]

Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement

South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex. South Korea’s total fertility rate has plummeted to one of the lowest in the world, with the average woman now having just 0.7 children.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

____

What I  read in this post and the forum overall is general agreement with the thesis in Kristof’s article.

Marriage, sex, and family are products of an earlier, darker age.

Is this incorrect?

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Ron Scott - I posted 4 articles on conscientiousness to refute your claim it was just one study.  You can also find more on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientiousness

[reeshau]

I'm currently in a female-dominated grad school program and I still do the bulk of the group work because I have no patience or interest in managing my classmates, but it's like pulling teeth to get them to let me do it. The difference from my male-dominated program days is stark.

So, they want to learn, too?  Sounds like you have a bad habit to unlearn.

I imagine, given your past posts about your professional experience, that a lot of it is individual work.  But learning and working in a group dynamic is itself a valuable skill to learn.  (Here, talking about what might be a positive group dynamic, as opposed to coping with a toxic one.  Might not feel as efficient as working alone, but with potentially better results)

In my professional history in IT, there is almost nothing done individually.  If the group doesn't work, you're sunk.  This can also involve leadership rejecting people who don't get that.  Even if they are good at what they do.

[LennStar]

Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement

South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex. South Korea’s total fertility rate has plummeted to one of the lowest in the world, with the average woman now having just 0.7 children.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

____

What I  read in this post and the forum overall is general agreement with the thesis in Kristof’s article.

Marriage, sex, and family are products of an earlier, darker age.

Is this incorrect?

I won't subsribe to "darker", but yes.
A life-term 1:1 relation with economocial (co)dependence seems to be either out of favor (for both boys and girls) or viewed strongly favorable upon in a certain group.
It is the same left/right polarisation going on in this specific topic. It's no coincidence that right extremists are going the "homeland and marriage" route.

[Metalcat]

I'm currently in a female-dominated grad school program and I still do the bulk of the group work because I have no patience or interest in managing my classmates, but it's like pulling teeth to get them to let me do it. The difference from my male-dominated program days is stark.

So, they want to learn, too?  Sounds like you have a bad habit to unlearn.

I imagine, given your past posts about your professional experience, that a lot of it is individual work.  But learning and working in a group dynamic is itself a valuable skill to learn.  (Here, talking about what might be a positive group dynamic, as opposed to coping with a toxic one.  Might not feel as efficient as working alone, but with potentially better results)

In my professional history in IT, there is almost nothing done individually.  If the group doesn't work, you're sunk.  This can also involve leadership rejecting people who don't get that.  Even if they are good at what they do.

FTR, the anecdote was never to show anything good about me. I have absolutely been a dick to my current classmates and would never claim that I wasn't. It was only to contrast the experience of being in a male-dominated program vs a female-dominated program.

But no, none of my professional experience has ever been individual work and I used to get paid to teach business owners how to build healthy cohesive teams. I'm not a fucking dick in those contexts though.

[LaineyAZ]

I think the modern world is going through a big cultural transition and men, especially in the Western world, have not been happy that the cultural and status benefits they've enjoyed for hundreds of years is evaporating.

If you read about or talk to average women age 70+, oh boy, the shit they had to put up with every single day. 
As we know, women re-entered the paid work force in droves starting in the 1970s but then, even up to now, were still expected to handle the majority of child care, housework, cooking, etc.  The fact that, 50 years later, we're still seeing so many men balk at doing their fair share and complain about even being asked ("you're nagging me..") means this transition is still not going well.
Moral is It's Good To Be King.    No wonder everyone is just done.

[Ron Scott]

Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement

South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex. South Korea’s total fertility rate has plummeted to one of the lowest in the world, with the average woman now having just 0.7 children.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

____

What I  read in this post and the forum overall is general agreement with the thesis in Kristof’s article.

Marriage, sex, and family are products of an earlier, darker age.

Is this incorrect?

I won't subsribe to "darker", but yes.
A life-term 1:1 relation with economocial (co)dependence seems to be either out of favor (for both boys and girls) or viewed strongly favorable upon in a certain group.
It is the same left/right polarisation going on in this specific topic. It's no coincidence that right extremists are going the "homeland and marriage" route.

I hear on TV a lot of talk about the left-right thing, especially from the right…like they “own the family” or something. Couldn’t be stupider, but that kind of thing has been selling well to their base for decades.

Out in the real world, I see more of a divide between age groups, but even that’s not really descriptive. Sometimes I think the most significant change began among men who had a hard time launching a career after the recession. Some just gave up in general after the disillusionment of having done the right thing with college etc., and not getting the promised rewards. I don’t like the direction they took, but I really feel for them. And of course the women in this cohort are WTF about it; certainly understandable. I could be wrong…

[rocketpj]

My 'hack' back in college to get motivated group project partners was to sign up for the first presentation date and ask around if anyone else wanted to get it done early.  100% guaranteed slacker repellent.  It also helped with the 'not having everything come due the same week' challenge.

My post-secondary experience was a bit different because I went into it after a few years of working on offshore fish boats and in forestry in Northern Canada.  So pretty much all of school felt like a fun holiday where I got to do interesting things and had incredible amounts of spare time.  In contrast to all my classmates, who were in a constant state of panic.

Gender wise my female classmates were by far the most hard working and intelligent (on average) and most of the people I became friends with were women as a result.  Possibly also because I was living with my future wife already and not angling to get involved with them as well.

[Metalcat]

My 'hack' back in college to get motivated group project partners was to sign up for the first presentation date and ask around if anyone else wanted to get it done early.  100% guaranteed slacker repellent.  It also helped with the 'not having everything come due the same week' challenge.

My post-secondary experience was a bit different because I went into it after a few years of working on offshore fish boats and in forestry in Northern Canada.  So pretty much all of school felt like a fun holiday where I got to do interesting things and had incredible amounts of spare time.  In contrast to all my classmates, who were in a constant state of panic.

Gender wise my female classmates were by far the most hard working and intelligent (on average) and most of the people I became friends with were women as a result.  Possibly also because I was living with my future wife already and not angling to get involved with them as well.

In my current program this is a major motivation for doing the bulk of the work. My classmates are high strung, perfectionists, but they don't start their major projects until the week they're due.

I'm not about that life so I just show up to the first meeting with 80% of the work done and say "here, do whatever you want with this, and leave me alone."

Perfectionist procrastinators drive me nuts, but that's actually a symptom of perfectionism. The pressure they put on themselves is so overwhelming that it's hard to even start a project, and they need the pressure of a deadline to motivate them to work as hard as they push themselves to.

That's actually the worst part about perfectionism is that the worse it gets over time, the less the person actually performs at an elite level. The huge difference between perfectionism and a healthy pursuit of excellent is that the former performs far worse than the latter.

And that's usually the point that I start working with clients, they're so far past the point of optimal performance and their burning out like crazy because they're pushing themselves so hard for increasingly diminished returns.

This is why I'm so passionate about combatting perfectionism in women, because in the end you have a poor performer with shit mental and physical health. Perfectionism has no benefit, only a transient illusion of benefit.

[Tyson]

Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement

South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex. South Korea’s total fertility rate has plummeted to one of the lowest in the world, with the average woman now having just 0.7 children.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

____

What I  read in this post and the forum overall is general agreement with the thesis in Kristof’s article.

Marriage, sex, and family are products of an earlier, darker age.

Is this incorrect?

I won't subsribe to "darker", but yes.
A life-term 1:1 relation with economocial (co)dependence seems to be either out of favor (for both boys and girls) or viewed strongly favorable upon in a certain group.
It is the same left/right polarisation going on in this specific topic. It's no coincidence that right extremists are going the "homeland and marriage" route.

I hear on TV a lot of talk about the left-right thing, especially from the right…like they “own the family” or something. Couldn’t be stupider, but that kind of thing has been selling well to their base for decades.

Out in the real world, I see more of a divide between age groups, but even that’s not really descriptive. Sometimes I think the most significant change began among men who had a hard time launching a career after the recession. Some just gave up in general after the disillusionment of having done the right thing with college etc., and not getting the promised rewards. I don’t like the direction they took, but I really feel for them. And of course the women in this cohort are WTF about it; certainly understandable. I could be wrong…

It seems clear that women are taking over the high paying jobs and careers.  It's already started and I think it will accelerate over the next 10 years. 

I wonder if this means we'll have more men being the stay at home parent.  I mean, it makes sense.  If the woman is the high earner and stronger career prospects, she should work more and the man should work less. 

Interesting times.

[Metalcat]

Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement

South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex. South Korea’s total fertility rate has plummeted to one of the lowest in the world, with the average woman now having just 0.7 children.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

____

What I  read in this post and the forum overall is general agreement with the thesis in Kristof’s article.

Marriage, sex, and family are products of an earlier, darker age.

Is this incorrect?

I won't subsribe to "darker", but yes.
A life-term 1:1 relation with economocial (co)dependence seems to be either out of favor (for both boys and girls) or viewed strongly favorable upon in a certain group.
It is the same left/right polarisation going on in this specific topic. It's no coincidence that right extremists are going the "homeland and marriage" route.

I hear on TV a lot of talk about the left-right thing, especially from the right…like they “own the family” or something. Couldn’t be stupider, but that kind of thing has been selling well to their base for decades.

Out in the real world, I see more of a divide between age groups, but even that’s not really descriptive. Sometimes I think the most significant change began among men who had a hard time launching a career after the recession. Some just gave up in general after the disillusionment of having done the right thing with college etc., and not getting the promised rewards. I don’t like the direction they took, but I really feel for them. And of course the women in this cohort are WTF about it; certainly understandable. I could be wrong…

It seems clear that women are taking over the high paying jobs and careers.  It's already started and I think it will accelerate over the next 10 years. 

I wonder if this means we'll have more men being the stay at home parent.  I mean, it makes sense.  If the woman is the high earner and stronger career prospects, she should work more and the man should work less. 

Interesting times.

Many of the high earning women I worked with had stay at home husbands, it wasn't at all unusual.

[Ron Scott]

Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement

South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex. South Korea’s total fertility rate has plummeted to one of the lowest in the world, with the average woman now having just 0.7 children.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

____

What I  read in this post and the forum overall is general agreement with the thesis in Kristof’s article.

Marriage, sex, and family are products of an earlier, darker age.

Is this incorrect?

I won't subsribe to "darker", but yes.
A life-term 1:1 relation with economocial (co)dependence seems to be either out of favor (for both boys and girls) or viewed strongly favorable upon in a certain group.
It is the same left/right polarisation going on in this specific topic. It's no coincidence that right extremists are going the "homeland and marriage" route.

I hear on TV a lot of talk about the left-right thing, especially from the right…like they “own the family” or something. Couldn’t be stupider, but that kind of thing has been selling well to their base for decades.

Out in the real world, I see more of a divide between age groups, but even that’s not really descriptive. Sometimes I think the most significant change began among men who had a hard time launching a career after the recession. Some just gave up in general after the disillusionment of having done the right thing with college etc., and not getting the promised rewards. I don’t like the direction they took, but I really feel for them. And of course the women in this cohort are WTF about it; certainly understandable. I could be wrong…

It seems clear that women are taking over the high paying jobs and careers.  It's already started and I think it will accelerate over the next 10 years. 

I wonder if this means we'll have more men being the stay at home parent.  I mean, it makes sense.  If the woman is the high earner and stronger career prospects, she should work more and the man should work less. 

Interesting times.

I think women might be in a better position than men in assessing their position on SAHM vs. career. Keep in mind this is a generalized view and individuals will differ. But men are still expected by peers, family, and many prospective spouses to be breadwinners, while we’re in a period in which the expectations on women are looser…allowing a choice that wasn’t the norm. It’s a good place to be…long time coming.

[Just Joe]

My 'hack' back in college to get motivated group project partners was to sign up for the first presentation date and ask around if anyone else wanted to get it done early.  100% guaranteed slacker repellent.  It also helped with the 'not having everything come due the same week' challenge.

My post-secondary experience was a bit different because I went into it after a few years of working on offshore fish boats and in forestry in Northern Canada.  So pretty much all of school felt like a fun holiday where I got to do interesting things and had incredible amounts of spare time.  In contrast to all my classmates, who were in a constant state of panic.

Gender wise my female classmates were by far the most hard working and intelligent (on average) and most of the people I became friends with were women as a result.  Possibly also because I was living with my future wife already and not angling to get involved with them as well.

I have a similar story after a military enlistment and already married while getting my degree. 

[Villanelle]

Based on my observations (which I readily acknowledge are not a representative sample of life), it seems to me like SAHD's do more than the working mom's as far as household stuff.  But SAHM's do an even larger share.  The working moms still pick up a significant amount of the household and child-related chores, even though the SAH parent does more than they do.  The working dads, as a generalization, seem to do relatively little at home, with the SAH parent doing nearly all of it.  Their job is  the employment, and mom's job is house and kids. The working moms I know with a SAH partner could all name their kid's pediatrician and know where the office is.  They know the name of the kid's BFF and and the BFF's parent(s).  They attend IEP meetings and scrub toilets.  Certainly, the SAHD does more chores than the mom, but the mom is involved.  So many working dad's I know (even when there's also a working mom, in some cases) have no idea about a lot of this stuff. 

It doesn't seem to me like the division of labor between SAH vs. working parent is the same when the genders of who is in which role are switched.  (I'm excluding same-sex couples from the conversation, since I'm talking about gender's affect on the split of responsibilities, but I'm not ignoring the fact that they exist.)

[GuitarStv]

If women are more conscientious in their work, I think that would track.

[JJ-]

Based on my observations (which I readily acknowledge are not a representative sample of life), it seems to me like SAHD's do more than the working mom's as far as household stuff.  But SAHM's do an even larger share.  The working moms still pick up a significant amount of the household and child-related chores, even though the SAH parent does more than they do.  The working dads, as a generalization, seem to do relatively little at home, with the SAH parent doing nearly all of it.  Their job is  the employment, and mom's job is house and kids. The working moms I know with a SAH partner could all name their kid's pediatrician and know where the office is.  They know the name of the kid's BFF and and the BFF's parent(s).  They attend IEP meetings and scrub toilets.  Certainly, the SAHD does more chores than the mom, but the mom is involved.  So many working dad's I know (even when there's also a working mom, in some cases) have no idea about a lot of this stuff. 

It doesn't seem to me like the division of labor between SAH vs. working parent is the same when the genders of who is in which role are switched.  (I'm excluding same-sex couples from the conversation, since I'm talking about gender's affect on the split of responsibilities, but I'm not ignoring the fact that they exist.)

DW categorize life obligations into four quadrants: Work, house care (maintenance), child rearing duties (doctors, school pickups), and household operations (chores, meals, etc).

DW works full time and does half of household ops, I work part time and do most of kid stuff, house care, and the other half of household ops.

There are some things that it's just easier for DW to do on the kid front... Like clothing swaps. It's socializing time for her and her friends.

But generally, in our social circles, the dad's are working and about work work work not family stuff. I have met very few engaged dads, even fewer that I click with, and when I have met those that I click with I sink my claws into them and force them to be my friend. I tolerate the others when DW is friends with the moms, or when our kids want a playdate and their mom sends their dad my way with them.

DW is best friends with 3 SAHMs at varying levels of the definition (irony we talk about a lot with her working FT), and your observations jive with their habits too.

[curious_george]

Based on my observations (which I readily acknowledge are not a representative sample of life), it seems to me like SAHD's do more than the working mom's as far as household stuff.  But SAHM's do an even larger share.  The working moms still pick up a significant amount of the household and child-related chores, even though the SAH parent does more than they do.  The working dads, as a generalization, seem to do relatively little at home, with the SAH parent doing nearly all of it.  Their job is  the employment, and mom's job is house and kids. The working moms I know with a SAH partner could all name their kid's pediatrician and know where the office is.  They know the name of the kid's BFF and and the BFF's parent(s).  They attend IEP meetings and scrub toilets.  Certainly, the SAHD does more chores than the mom, but the mom is involved.  So many working dad's I know (even when there's also a working mom, in some cases) have no idea about a lot of this stuff. 

It doesn't seem to me like the division of labor between SAH vs. working parent is the same when the genders of who is in which role are switched.  (I'm excluding same-sex couples from the conversation, since I'm talking about gender's affect on the split of responsibilities, but I'm not ignoring the fact that they exist.)

I think this is generally accurate, but I have also seen tons of exceptions to these generalizations, especially in cases where a man has more empathy and sympathy and compassion for other people, attributes that have historically been more attributed to women..

I think the general solution to this is to teach men - or perhaps find a man - that has both a mixture of traditionally feminine and masculine qualities, and who understands when it is appropriate to use both.

A man who both takes his children to the doctor and takes care of them when they are sick, but who also can rebuild a car engine and change a tire, and who isn't afraid to go fight snakes or intruders and do security related tasks.

Encouraging men to be more in touch with their feelings and go to therapy might be a good step, but also doing things like not making fun of men for experiencing emotions or attacking their ego, etc, might be useful as well.

I have been in plenty of situations where both men and women have made fun of a man because he has feelings, which just encourages a man to repress his feelings over time, and lose important qualities like sympathy, empathy, compassion, and so on, which are really useful for raising children.

It would probably also be useful to let go of the whole idea of masculinity, and the association of certain tasks with certain genders. I feel like some men are afraid of doing laundry or and taking their kids to the doctor because they are scared other men will judge this as being less masculine and they will risk social rejection as a result.

Social rejection, and rejection in general, is a deep fear a lot of men have. So if we could collectively stop believing in the general idea that some tasks are masculin or feminine in nature, and that a man's ego and social acceptance depends on him doing masculine tasks and masculine things, that would be great.

[former player]

Yes, patriarchy hurts men too, just not as much and as obviously as it hurts women.

[Villanelle]

Based on my observations (which I readily acknowledge are not a representative sample of life), it seems to me like SAHD's do more than the working mom's as far as household stuff.  But SAHM's do an even larger share.  The working moms still pick up a significant amount of the household and child-related chores, even though the SAH parent does more than they do.  The working dads, as a generalization, seem to do relatively little at home, with the SAH parent doing nearly all of it.  Their job is  the employment, and mom's job is house and kids. The working moms I know with a SAH partner could all name their kid's pediatrician and know where the office is.  They know the name of the kid's BFF and and the BFF's parent(s).  They attend IEP meetings and scrub toilets.  Certainly, the SAHD does more chores than the mom, but the mom is involved.  So many working dad's I know (even when there's also a working mom, in some cases) have no idea about a lot of this stuff. 

It doesn't seem to me like the division of labor between SAH vs. working parent is the same when the genders of who is in which role are switched.  (I'm excluding same-sex couples from the conversation, since I'm talking about gender's affect on the split of responsibilities, but I'm not ignoring the fact that they exist.)

I think this is generally accurate, but I have also seen tons of exceptions to these generalizations, especially in cases where a man has more empathy and sympathy and compassion for other people, attributes that have historically been more attributed to women..

I think the general solution to this is to teach men - or perhaps find a man - that has both a mixture of traditionally feminine and masculine qualities, and who understands when it is appropriate to use both.

A man who both takes his children to the doctor and takes care of them when they are sick, but who also can rebuild a car engine and change a tire, and who isn't afraid to go fight snakes or intruders and do security related tasks.

Encouraging men to be more in touch with their feelings and go to therapy might be a good step, but also doing things like not making fun of men for experiencing emotions or attacking their ego, etc, might be useful as well.

I have been in plenty of situations where both men and women have made fun of a man because he has feelings, which just encourages a man to repress his feelings over time, and lose important qualities like sympathy, empathy, compassion, and so on, which are really useful for raising children.

It would probably also be useful to let go of the whole idea of masculinity, and the association of certain tasks with certain genders. I feel like some men are afraid of doing laundry or and taking their kids to the doctor because they are scared other men will judge this as being less masculine and they will risk social rejection as a result.

Social rejection, and rejection in general, is a deep fear a lot of men have. So if we could collectively stop believing in the general idea that some tasks are masculin or feminine in nature, and that a man's ego and social acceptance depends on him doing masculine tasks and masculine things, that would be great.

One of my dearest friends is the insect-dispatcher in her relationship.  When we were in Japan and I had a spider on my glass door, I called her.  I'll deal with some critters on my own, but this guy was so large and beefy that when he walked on the glass, his legs clicked.  *shudder*.  Her husband is NOT a fan of creepy crawlies, so she is called when there's a bug that is bugging the household. 

I do find that when men pitch in with the household, it is frequently with the traditionally masculine tasks.  They catch the bugs, they take out the trash, they mow the lawn, they change the light bulbs and get the car's oil changed.  (Plenty of exceptions in all directions, of course.)  But because traditionally men "worked", and women took care of the house, if one weights the traditionally feminine house and life and child tasks against the traditionally masculine ones, it's not even close.  But I think the division allows many men to think they are contributing about equally.  They feel they are doing "their half", when really they are doing "their much, much shorter list". 

[wenchsenior]

I do find it interesting how early upbringing affects what we associate with gendered roles.

I never associated 'bug' or snake handling (both of which I did/do on the regular from an early age) with gender at all. I didn't associate sports that way either,  nor particular classes (STEM vs humanities), nor housecleaning, nor cooking. And I went to college for not only a STEM degree, but one that required lots of 'rough and tumble' outdoor stuff. When I entered college this degree had traditionally been dominated by white males, and that shifted notably (along with many other college degrees) starting in the '90s.

But I definitely always associated childcare/interest in babies as being a female thing (one that I didn't really share, so I felt 'weird' about that), and doing things like house-related upkeep and construction, mowing the yard, and working on cars as very stereotypically male and thus I never bothered to learn some of those until I made the conscious choice to much later in life.

All of this was presumably just based on what I saw modeled by parents and other adults around me when I was young. 

[curious_george]

Based on my observations (which I readily acknowledge are not a representative sample of life), it seems to me like SAHD's do more than the working mom's as far as household stuff.  But SAHM's do an even larger share.  The working moms still pick up a significant amount of the household and child-related chores, even though the SAH parent does more than they do.  The working dads, as a generalization, seem to do relatively little at home, with the SAH parent doing nearly all of it.  Their job is  the employment, and mom's job is house and kids. The working moms I know with a SAH partner could all name their kid's pediatrician and know where the office is.  They know the name of the kid's BFF and and the BFF's parent(s).  They attend IEP meetings and scrub toilets.  Certainly, the SAHD does more chores than the mom, but the mom is involved.  So many working dad's I know (even when there's also a working mom, in some cases) have no idea about a lot of this stuff. 

It doesn't seem to me like the division of labor between SAH vs. working parent is the same when the genders of who is in which role are switched.  (I'm excluding same-sex couples from the conversation, since I'm talking about gender's affect on the split of responsibilities, but I'm not ignoring the fact that they exist.)

I think this is generally accurate, but I have also seen tons of exceptions to these generalizations, especially in cases where a man has more empathy and sympathy and compassion for other people, attributes that have historically been more attributed to women..

I think the general solution to this is to teach men - or perhaps find a man - that has both a mixture of traditionally feminine and masculine qualities, and who understands when it is appropriate to use both.

A man who both takes his children to the doctor and takes care of them when they are sick, but who also can rebuild a car engine and change a tire, and who isn't afraid to go fight snakes or intruders and do security related tasks.

Encouraging men to be more in touch with their feelings and go to therapy might be a good step, but also doing things like not making fun of men for experiencing emotions or attacking their ego, etc, might be useful as well.

I have been in plenty of situations where both men and women have made fun of a man because he has feelings, which just encourages a man to repress his feelings over time, and lose important qualities like sympathy, empathy, compassion, and so on, which are really useful for raising children.

It would probably also be useful to let go of the whole idea of masculinity, and the association of certain tasks with certain genders. I feel like some men are afraid of doing laundry or and taking their kids to the doctor because they are scared other men will judge this as being less masculine and they will risk social rejection as a result.

Social rejection, and rejection in general, is a deep fear a lot of men have. So if we could collectively stop believing in the general idea that some tasks are masculin or feminine in nature, and that a man's ego and social acceptance depends on him doing masculine tasks and masculine things, that would be great.

One of my dearest friends is the insect-dispatcher in her relationship.  When we were in Japan and I had a spider on my glass door, I called her.  I'll deal with some critters on my own, but this guy was so large and beefy that when he walked on the glass, his legs clicked.  *shudder*.  Her husband is NOT a fan of creepy crawlies, so she is called when there's a bug that is bugging the household. 

I do find that when men pitch in with the household, it is frequently with the traditionally masculine tasks.  They catch the bugs, they take out the trash, they mow the lawn, they change the light bulbs and get the car's oil changed.  (Plenty of exceptions in all directions, of course.)  But because traditionally men "worked", and women took care of the house, if one weights the traditionally feminine house and life and child tasks against the traditionally masculine ones, it's not even close.  But I think the division allows many men to think they are contributing about equally.  They feel they are doing "their half", when really they are doing "their much, much shorter list".

I agree with the overall argument you have presented in this thread, which is basically that women handle the majority of the labor and do significantly more labor, in general, than men do in today's society. Or at least that is how I understand your argument.

How would you solve this problem though?

My basic argument is that I feel like the best way forward is to have men handle a more equal split of the childcare and housework with women.

In order to accomplish this we basically have to dismantle the whole patriarchy system and change how we define what an ideal man is.

Women went to college and went to work in huge numbers in the past several decades, so much so that women outnumber men now in college graduates, and I think will eventually outearn men as well, on average.

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

[merula]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

[Villanelle]

Based on my observations (which I readily acknowledge are not a representative sample of life), it seems to me like SAHD's do more than the working mom's as far as household stuff.  But SAHM's do an even larger share.  The working moms still pick up a significant amount of the household and child-related chores, even though the SAH parent does more than they do.  The working dads, as a generalization, seem to do relatively little at home, with the SAH parent doing nearly all of it.  Their job is  the employment, and mom's job is house and kids. The working moms I know with a SAH partner could all name their kid's pediatrician and know where the office is.  They know the name of the kid's BFF and and the BFF's parent(s).  They attend IEP meetings and scrub toilets.  Certainly, the SAHD does more chores than the mom, but the mom is involved.  So many working dad's I know (even when there's also a working mom, in some cases) have no idea about a lot of this stuff. 

It doesn't seem to me like the division of labor between SAH vs. working parent is the same when the genders of who is in which role are switched.  (I'm excluding same-sex couples from the conversation, since I'm talking about gender's affect on the split of responsibilities, but I'm not ignoring the fact that they exist.)

I think this is generally accurate, but I have also seen tons of exceptions to these generalizations, especially in cases where a man has more empathy and sympathy and compassion for other people, attributes that have historically been more attributed to women..

I think the general solution to this is to teach men - or perhaps find a man - that has both a mixture of traditionally feminine and masculine qualities, and who understands when it is appropriate to use both.

A man who both takes his children to the doctor and takes care of them when they are sick, but who also can rebuild a car engine and change a tire, and who isn't afraid to go fight snakes or intruders and do security related tasks.

Encouraging men to be more in touch with their feelings and go to therapy might be a good step, but also doing things like not making fun of men for experiencing emotions or attacking their ego, etc, might be useful as well.

I have been in plenty of situations where both men and women have made fun of a man because he has feelings, which just encourages a man to repress his feelings over time, and lose important qualities like sympathy, empathy, compassion, and so on, which are really useful for raising children.

It would probably also be useful to let go of the whole idea of masculinity, and the association of certain tasks with certain genders. I feel like some men are afraid of doing laundry or and taking their kids to the doctor because they are scared other men will judge this as being less masculine and they will risk social rejection as a result.

Social rejection, and rejection in general, is a deep fear a lot of men have. So if we could collectively stop believing in the general idea that some tasks are masculin or feminine in nature, and that a man's ego and social acceptance depends on him doing masculine tasks and masculine things, that would be great.

One of my dearest friends is the insect-dispatcher in her relationship.  When we were in Japan and I had a spider on my glass door, I called her.  I'll deal with some critters on my own, but this guy was so large and beefy that when he walked on the glass, his legs clicked.  *shudder*.  Her husband is NOT a fan of creepy crawlies, so she is called when there's a bug that is bugging the household. 

I do find that when men pitch in with the household, it is frequently with the traditionally masculine tasks.  They catch the bugs, they take out the trash, they mow the lawn, they change the light bulbs and get the car's oil changed.  (Plenty of exceptions in all directions, of course.)  But because traditionally men "worked", and women took care of the house, if one weights the traditionally feminine house and life and child tasks against the traditionally masculine ones, it's not even close.  But I think the division allows many men to think they are contributing about equally.  They feel they are doing "their half", when really they are doing "their much, much shorter list".

I agree with the overall argument you have presented in this thread, which is basically that women handle the majority of the labor and do significantly more labor, in general, than men do in today's society. Or at least that is how I understand your argument.

How would you solve this problem though?

My basic argument is that I feel like the best way forward is to have men handle a more equal split of the childcare and housework with women.

In order to accomplish this we basically have to dismantle the whole patriarchy system and change how we define what an ideal man is.

Women went to college and went to work in huge numbers in the past several decades, so much so that women outnumber men now in college graduates, and I think will eventually outearn men as well, on average.

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

This.  Or perhaps more to the point, "men need to step up to the plate if they want to have long-term romantic partners and women who are willing to bare their children and help raise them". 

When women don't need men to provide financially, men need to bring something else to the table.  Romantic love is nice, but to most people, it's not worth taking on significantly more household and emotional labor, plus also potentially losing financial progress as well (if she makes more than a potential partner).  "I'll love you forever and ever" isn't enough for many women.  So they will find men who have more than that to bring to the table.  That could be money, or it could be a willingness to be the primary child-minder and house-engineer.  Or perhaps some other structure or contribution.

Now, if a man is content to stay single, or to only partner with women who make much less than them (therefore making the man's contribution the more typical "I bring home the paycheck" situation), or to partner with the decreasing number of women who don't demand or expect more from them, cool.  Don't change anything, brother.  But if a man wants to increase his chances of finding a long-term partner, increase his chances of having kids, and/or increase his chances of partnering with these women with great careers, then yeah, the things that traditionally worked for men probably aren't going to cut it in many/most cases. 

[Tyson]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

[GuitarStv]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

There are chores that are culturally unimportant for men that are important for women.  Stuff like remembering birthdays.  How do you classify that when it's only important to one person in the relationship?

[merula]

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

(1) It's not just the physical chores, it's the mental load of remembering what chores need to be done and when and how. This is why "I'll do whatever you want, just make me a list" is a problem. See also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AKXDw8KThs. But this is part of the problem, and there's a capitalist solution: https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards

(2) There's plenty of work in a marriage that isn't a "chore", like being present for the kids and each other, keeping the romance going, or maintaining broader family connections that are considered women's work because of the stereotypes around women being naturally better carers.

[Tyson]

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

(1) It's not just the physical chores, it's the mental load of remembering what chores need to be done and when and how. This is why "I'll do whatever you want, just make me a list" is a problem. See also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AKXDw8KThs. But this is part of the problem, and there's a capitalist solution: https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards

(2) There's plenty of work in a marriage that isn't a "chore", like being present for the kids and each other, keeping the romance going, or maintaining broader family connections that are considered women's work because of the stereotypes around women being naturally better carers.

Yes, you're exactly right.  I said a list of chores but maybe calling it something like 'list of responsibilities' would be better. 

If there is something that requires time/thought/effort, it should be on the list.  I think these things must be made explicit.  If they are explicit, then they can be dealt with, fairly.

[Metalcat]

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

(1) It's not just the physical chores, it's the mental load of remembering what chores need to be done and when and how. This is why "I'll do whatever you want, just make me a list" is a problem. See also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AKXDw8KThs. But this is part of the problem, and there's a capitalist solution: https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards

(2) There's plenty of work in a marriage that isn't a "chore", like being present for the kids and each other, keeping the romance going, or maintaining broader family connections that are considered women's work because of the stereotypes around women being naturally better carers.

Yes, you're exactly right.  I said a list of chores but maybe calling it something like 'list of responsibilities' would be better. 

If there is something that requires time/thought/effort, it should be on the list.  I think these things must be made explicit.  If they are explicit, then they can be dealt with, fairly.

It's difficult though, even making it explicit, if one party has never really done that work and doesn't really see a lot of value in it, then it's very difficult to divide tasks evenly if there isn't thorough agreement as to the weight and importance of different tasks.

I do couples counselling, and if it was as easy as making a list and splitting it evenly, couple's counselling wouldn't exist.

[jeninco]

To be fair, I've been the only dude in a group project situation (in graduate school!) and ended up doing most of the work.

It's not (IMO) particularly a gender thing when we're talking about the FIRE crowd. Nobody here would accept getting a crap grade when they could take over the project and make it good.

-W

Yeah, our younger son was in a project class in his first semester of EE, and he singlehandedly did probably 90% of the work. Including bringing the project home (he's about 3 miles away, but living at school) to finish in our shop space when his group put something in backwards and fried half the wiring the night before the presentation...

I don't think it's entirely gendered, is what I'm saying. (But probably partway...)

[Tyson]

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

(1) It's not just the physical chores, it's the mental load of remembering what chores need to be done and when and how. This is why "I'll do whatever you want, just make me a list" is a problem. See also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AKXDw8KThs. But this is part of the problem, and there's a capitalist solution: https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards

(2) There's plenty of work in a marriage that isn't a "chore", like being present for the kids and each other, keeping the romance going, or maintaining broader family connections that are considered women's work because of the stereotypes around women being naturally better carers.

Yes, you're exactly right.  I said a list of chores but maybe calling it something like 'list of responsibilities' would be better. 

If there is something that requires time/thought/effort, it should be on the list.  I think these things must be made explicit.  If they are explicit, then they can be dealt with, fairly.

It's difficult though, even making it explicit, if one party has never really done that work and doesn't really see a lot of value in it, then it's very difficult to divide tasks evenly if there isn't thorough agreement as to the weight and importance of different tasks.

I do couples counselling, and if it was as easy as making a list and splitting it evenly, couple's counselling wouldn't exist.

Oh of course it's never that easy and certainly I don't see it as a cure-all.  But I do think it's a good place to start.  Because unstated assumptions are premeditated resentments. 

Another thing that might be useful would be to rotate through all the items on the list.  That way each person can experience for themselves how difficult, or how easy, each item on the list really is. 

I am making one assumption, and that's that each person engages with this in an honest manner. 

ETA:  Or, do you think it's a bad idea, period?  And if so, why?

[Metalcat]

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

(1) It's not just the physical chores, it's the mental load of remembering what chores need to be done and when and how. This is why "I'll do whatever you want, just make me a list" is a problem. See also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AKXDw8KThs. But this is part of the problem, and there's a capitalist solution: https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards

(2) There's plenty of work in a marriage that isn't a "chore", like being present for the kids and each other, keeping the romance going, or maintaining broader family connections that are considered women's work because of the stereotypes around women being naturally better carers.

Yes, you're exactly right.  I said a list of chores but maybe calling it something like 'list of responsibilities' would be better. 

If there is something that requires time/thought/effort, it should be on the list.  I think these things must be made explicit.  If they are explicit, then they can be dealt with, fairly.

It's difficult though, even making it explicit, if one party has never really done that work and doesn't really see a lot of value in it, then it's very difficult to divide tasks evenly if there isn't thorough agreement as to the weight and importance of different tasks.

I do couples counselling, and if it was as easy as making a list and splitting it evenly, couple's counselling wouldn't exist.

Oh of course it's never that easy and certainly I don't see it as a cure-all.  But I do think it's a good place to start.  Because unstated assumptions are premeditated resentments. 

Another thing that might be useful would be to rotate through all the items on the list.  That way each person can experience for themselves how difficult, or how easy, each item on the list really is. 

I am making one assumption, and that's that each person engages with this in an honest manner. 

ETA:  Or, do you think it's a bad idea, period?  And if so, why?

Nono, I don't think it's at all a bad idea in general, it can be a very helpful exercise. But the way you stated it implied that it's simple to just list tasks and divide them evenly, when it is far more complex than that.

It's shockingly difficult to even get a couple to align in terms of what basic mutual respect looks like, much less what an equitable division of visible and invisible labour looks like.

Remember, if your relationship has healthy respect and an equitable division, it's hard to even imagine what a dysfunctional relationship even struggles with.

Many, many, MANY marriages are not operating from a place of functional dignity and respect.

And yes, I have clients who if I proposed that they start with trying to write lists, it would end in substantial harm. So in some cases, yes, it is a terrible idea.

[Tyson]

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

(1) It's not just the physical chores, it's the mental load of remembering what chores need to be done and when and how. This is why "I'll do whatever you want, just make me a list" is a problem. See also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AKXDw8KThs. But this is part of the problem, and there's a capitalist solution: https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards

(2) There's plenty of work in a marriage that isn't a "chore", like being present for the kids and each other, keeping the romance going, or maintaining broader family connections that are considered women's work because of the stereotypes around women being naturally better carers.

Yes, you're exactly right.  I said a list of chores but maybe calling it something like 'list of responsibilities' would be better. 

If there is something that requires time/thought/effort, it should be on the list.  I think these things must be made explicit.  If they are explicit, then they can be dealt with, fairly.

It's difficult though, even making it explicit, if one party has never really done that work and doesn't really see a lot of value in it, then it's very difficult to divide tasks evenly if there isn't thorough agreement as to the weight and importance of different tasks.

I do couples counselling, and if it was as easy as making a list and splitting it evenly, couple's counselling wouldn't exist.

Oh of course it's never that easy and certainly I don't see it as a cure-all.  But I do think it's a good place to start.  Because unstated assumptions are premeditated resentments. 

Another thing that might be useful would be to rotate through all the items on the list.  That way each person can experience for themselves how difficult, or how easy, each item on the list really is. 

I am making one assumption, and that's that each person engages with this in an honest manner. 

ETA:  Or, do you think it's a bad idea, period?  And if so, why?

Nono, I don't think it's at all a bad idea in general, it can be a very helpful exercise. But the way you stated it implied that it's simple to just list tasks and divide them evenly, when it is far more complex than that.

It's shockingly difficult to even get a couple to align in terms of what basic mutual respect looks like, much less what an equitable division of visible and invisible labour looks like.

Remember, if your relationship has healthy respect and an equitable division, it's hard to even imagine what a dysfunctional relationship even struggles with.

Many, many, MANY marriages are not operating from a place of functional dignity and respect.

And yes, I have clients who if I proposed that they start with trying to write lists, it would end in substantial harm. So in some cases, yes, it is a terrible idea.

Well, I have a failed marriage, so I'm probably not the person to take advice from, lol. 

Even when I was married, I never had any hangups about chores being gendered in any way.  Now that we split time with our son 50/50, I do 100% of all the responsibilities every time he's with me (we switch at the end of every week). 

Speaking only for myself, it's really not that hard.  In fact in some ways it might be easier now because I can focus on my son completely and not have to spend any emotional energy on my ex.  Back when we were married there was a lot more drama. 

I've been single for the last 6 years mostly because I wanted to focus on being a good dad to my son. 

I wish more men were put into positions where they had to learn to do 100% of everything on their own.  I think it would strip away a lot of the gender nonsense from their thinking. 

[economista]

I do find it interesting how early upbringing affects what we associate with gendered roles.

We are having an interesting mini social experiment in our house with this. My husband is blind so he can't do a lot of the traditional "male" things like building things or driving the car. My daughters are 3 and 4 and they basically call all men "daddies" and all women "mommies" but they have a very skewed idea of what should be a mom or dad responsibility because of how we do things in our house. A few months ago we were driving in the car and D1 said "mom - look! There is a daddy driving that car! Daddies aren't allowed to drive cars" which led to a discussion about how her daddy isn't allowed to drive cars because he can't see, but other men are allowed to drive cars. They have also said that when they grow up they will be mommies and drive cars and they will marry daddies whose job it is to take care of the kids while they go to work each day.

Another one is using tools and building things/doing house maintenance/etc. My husband can't build things because he can't see things like nail/screw holes, etc so I do all of those things. One day at their aunt's house they saw an HGTV show where a guy was using tools and D1 started to get upset that the guy was breaking the rules and daddies aren't supposed to use tools. So funny. We had another discussion about that situation as well. (fwiw, D1 has autism and she does tend to have very black and white thinking and she is very cued in to routine/rules/roles/etc. which is driving some of her reactions).

[Metalcat]

I do find it interesting how early upbringing affects what we associate with gendered roles.

We are having an interesting mini social experiment in our house with this. My husband is blind so he can't do a lot of the traditional "male" things like building things or driving the car. My daughters are 3 and 4 and they basically call all men "daddies" and all women "mommies" but they have a very skewed idea of what should be a mom or dad responsibility because of how we do things in our house. A few months ago we were driving in the car and D1 said "mom - look! There is a daddy driving that car! Daddies aren't allowed to drive cars" which led to a discussion about how her daddy isn't allowed to drive cars because he can't see, but other men are allowed to drive cars. They have also said that when they grow up they will be mommies and drive cars and they will marry daddies whose job it is to take care of the kids while they go to work each day.

Another one is using tools and building things/doing house maintenance/etc. My husband can't build things because he can't see things like nail/screw holes, etc so I do all of those things. One day at their aunt's house they saw an HGTV show where a guy was using tools and D1 started to get upset that the guy was breaking the rules and daddies aren't supposed to use tools. So funny. We had another discussion about that situation as well. (fwiw, D1 has autism and she does tend to have very black and white thinking and she is very cued in to routine/rules/roles/etc. which is driving some of her reactions).

I was raised with largely reversed gender roles and that has repeated in my marriage. My husband even has my last name.

[Villanelle]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

I think in many cases, men are so far removed from the goings on of a household that they don't understand the time suck of certain things. I think even women who are doing the work sometimes aren't aware that these tasks are actual tasks and they add up.  So if you make a list of chores and divide them evenly (or evenly based on non-employed hours, or some other method both parties deem fair), you are missing a lot of things.  "Shop for Christmas presents for the kids, shop for gifts for family members, wrap gifts" probably isn't on that chore list, but it's a lot of work, and that's before you add the emotional labor of "be the one who remembers it's BIL or mom's birthday".  Taking kid to regular (and emergent) doctor's appointments probably doesn't make the list.  Researching to find a tutor when junior is struggling from math isn't on the list.  Planning the vacation, researching hotels, comparing prices on tour packages, seeing what resorts have kids activities, etc... not on the list. Nor is remember to buy sunscreen before they leave for the trip, ensuring passports for the family are not expired, buying the only motion sickness pills that don't make Timmy sick but keep him from barfing on the plane, having Sally try on her swimsuit and buying a new one when it's clear she's outgrown last year's... 

I think these are the tasks that end up making women (not exclusively, but as a generalization) overwhelmed, and that often go unnoticed by partners.  It's not "I'll clean the toilets if you mop the floors."   You weren't addressing me when you asked the question in a later post about whether making the list and splittng it is a bad idea.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bad idea, but I can see how it could be detrimental because when, "help Timmy with science project" and "find out what Susie wants for Christmas and then scour the world for the last remaining one of those" isn't on the list, things look fair when they aren't.  If the list isn't at least close to comprehensive, it can give a false sense of what each party is actually doing and how "fair" the split is.  And the list is likely to be very far from comprehensive because so much of this isn't stuff most parties think about.

Semi-related:  DH just had a big work milestone with an associated reception  I was helping him think through things (and we were the official hosts), but much of the execution--but not all--was being done by the work admin people.  And I was stressed.  "Do they have coolers for the drinks?  is someone buying ice that morning to put in those coolers?"  These are the types of things that are easy to forget, especially when this is a side project for someone, and that person may have never actually planned an event.  And DH said, "no one is going to judge us if it ends up that the drinks are warm because there's no ice."  And I responded that they wouldn't judge him, but yeah, some people probably would judge me.  The answer is the same for if people show up to a dinner party and the house is a mess, there are dust bunnies under the kitchen table, no one offers them water, and there's nothing for the vegetarian guest to eat.  Subconsciously (or perhaps consciously), people think, "why didn't she have a meat-free option for Jane" or "gee, you'd think she might have straightened up before we came".  So it's easy for a man to be cavalier of the house isn't perfect before company comes, or to dismiss these things, or to feel somewhat resentful that he's being asked to corral dust bunnies pre-party, because he think's a few dust tumbleweeds are NDB.  Because he doesn't experience those things the way she may.  It's not tht she cares more, or at least not *just* that she cares more. It's that those dust bunnies have a different impact on her than they do on him.  Or the warm beverages, or  the missed mother-in-law's birthday.  And who do the bored children on vacation whine to when it turns out the kids' club sucks and there's nothing for them to do?  It's easy for dad to say, "let them figure out out" because the kids aren't tugging on his swimsuit when he's trying to read on the beach.

 (Yes, lots of generalizations here, to illustrate points.)

[Log]

…Romantic love is nice, but to most people, it's not worth taking on significantly more household and emotional labor, plus also potentially losing financial progress as well (if she makes more than a potential partner)…

You’re not wrong that this is how “most people” think these days, but I think it’s a pretty horrendous indictment of where our individualistic/narcissistic culture is at.

We’re all choosing between the problems of community and the problems of isolation—there are going to be problems either way. But the idea that love is too much of inconvenience to be worth it is not a conclusion I’m content to shrug my shoulders about. I like to be optimistic about things, but if we don’t fix that, we’re fucked.

[waltworks]

Yes, I think the actual issue here is that some of us (myself included) think that atomized narcissistic attitudes/society are inherently bad and we as a society have to do something (ie ban the internet for kids), and others think that if people are choosing what they want, that's fine.

There are legitimate arguments to be made for both sides.

-W

[Tyson]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

I think in many cases, men are so far removed from the goings on of a household that they don't understand the time suck of certain things. I think even women who are doing the work sometimes aren't aware that these tasks are actual tasks and they add up.  So if you make a list of chores and divide them evenly (or evenly based on non-employed hours, or some other method both parties deem fair), you are missing a lot of things.  "Shop for Christmas presents for the kids, shop for gifts for family members, wrap gifts" probably isn't on that chore list, but it's a lot of work, and that's before you add the emotional labor of "be the one who remembers it's BIL or mom's birthday".  Taking kid to regular (and emergent) doctor's appointments probably doesn't make the list.  Researching to find a tutor when junior is struggling from math isn't on the list.  Planning the vacation, researching hotels, comparing prices on tour packages, seeing what resorts have kids activities, etc... not on the list. Nor is remember to buy sunscreen before they leave for the trip, ensuring passports for the family are not expired, buying the only motion sickness pills that don't make Timmy sick but keep him from barfing on the plane, having Sally try on her swimsuit and buying a new one when it's clear she's outgrown last year's... 

I think these are the tasks that end up making women (not exclusively, but as a generalization) overwhelmed, and that often go unnoticed by partners.  It's not "I'll clean the toilets if you mop the floors."   You weren't addressing me when you asked the question in a later post about whether making the list and splittng it is a bad idea.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bad idea, but I can see how it could be detrimental because when, "help Timmy with science project" and "find out what Susie wants for Christmas and then scour the world for the last remaining one of those" isn't on the list, things look fair when they aren't.  If the list isn't at least close to comprehensive, it can give a false sense of what each party is actually doing and how "fair" the split is.  And the list is likely to be very far from comprehensive because so much of this isn't stuff most parties think about.

Semi-related:  DH just had a big work milestone with an associated reception  I was helping him think through things (and we were the official hosts), but much of the execution--but not all--was being done by the work admin people.  And I was stressed.  "Do they have coolers for the drinks?  is someone buying ice that morning to put in those coolers?"  These are the types of things that are easy to forget, especially when this is a side project for someone, and that person may have never actually planned an event.  And DH said, "no one is going to judge us if it ends up that the drinks are warm because there's no ice."  And I responded that they wouldn't judge him, but yeah, some people probably would judge me.  The answer is the same for if people show up to a dinner party and the house is a mess, there are dust bunnies under the kitchen table, no one offers them water, and there's nothing for the vegetarian guest to eat.  Subconsciously (or perhaps consciously), people think, "why didn't she have a meat-free option for Jane" or "gee, you'd think she might have straightened up before we came".  So it's easy for a man to be cavalier of the house isn't perfect before company comes, or to dismiss these things, or to feel somewhat resentful that he's being asked to corral dust bunnies pre-party, because he think's a few dust tumbleweeds are NDB.  Because he doesn't experience those things the way she may.  It's not tht she cares more, or at least not *just* that she cares more. It's that those dust bunnies have a different impact on her than they do on him.  Or the warm beverages, or  the missed mother-in-law's birthday.  And who do the bored children on vacation whine to when it turns out the kids' club sucks and there's nothing for them to do?  It's easy for dad to say, "let them figure out out" because the kids aren't tugging on his swimsuit when he's trying to read on the beach.

 (Yes, lots of generalizations here, to illustrate points.)

Hey, I'm glad we're continuing the conversation and things are still civil.  It's a difficult topic and I'm glad we can discuss it with good intentions. 

I absolutely agree with the dynamic you've laid out (and others have mentioned in this thread, too).  There's the explicit list of responsibilities and then there's a whole lot of other unspoken/unstated stuff that just gets lumped onto the woman's part without discussion or acknowledgement. 

What if we added those things to the list, as they came up?  I keep coming back to the list because I think often times men are just dullards when it comes to this stuff.  They need to see it in writing to really get it.

As long as both parties are acting in good faith, I think men can be made to see that they have these blind spots.  But only if you hit them over the head with it.  Like "Look honey, here's 3 things you do and 5, 10, 15 things that I do". 

[Villanelle]

…Romantic love is nice, but to most people, it's not worth taking on significantly more household and emotional labor, plus also potentially losing financial progress as well (if she makes more than a potential partner)…

You’re not wrong that this is how “most people” think these days, but I think it’s a pretty horrendous indictment of where our individualistic/narcissistic culture is at.

We’re all choosing between the problems of community and the problems of isolation—there are going to be problems either way. But the idea that love is too much of inconvenience to be worth it is not a conclusion I’m content to shrug my shoulders about. I like to be optimistic about things, but if we don’t fix that, we’re fucked.

It's not the love that is the inconvenience.  It's getting a second full-time job at 40+ hours a week. How is that narcissistic?  And people can still date, have friendships, and engage in other social activities if they don't couple-up, so they don't have to be isolated just because they don't marry or get into a serious relationship. 

[LaineyAZ]

Don't forget the ever-popular "your standards are different than mine so if it means that much to you then you should do it." 

If your partner is content with cleaning the bathroom once every few months vs. a weekly cleaning, then it's easy for them to shrug and say they just don't care.  If you insist, then the resentment builds. 
I've seen this scenario many, many times.

[former player]

…Romantic love is nice, but to most people, it's not worth taking on significantly more household and emotional labor, plus also potentially losing financial progress as well (if she makes more than a potential partner)…

You’re not wrong that this is how “most people” think these days, but I think it’s a pretty horrendous indictment of where our individualistic/narcissistic culture is at.

We’re all choosing between the problems of community and the problems of isolation—there are going to be problems either way. But the idea that love is too much of inconvenience to be worth it is not a conclusion I’m content to shrug my shoulders about. I like to be optimistic about things, but if we don’t fix that, we’re fucked.

I think it's less that love is an inconvenience and more that being married to someone who doesn't pull equal weight in the relationship drags you down, and too many women of "marriageable age" have seen their mothers in the next generation up working full time and bringing in a similar income to their husbands while also doing most of the child rearing and most of the household tasks.  And quite often while this was going on seen the husband sod off to be with a younger version of the mother, too.

[SunnyDays]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

I think in many cases, men are so far removed from the goings on of a household that they don't understand the time suck of certain things. I think even women who are doing the work sometimes aren't aware that these tasks are actual tasks and they add up.  So if you make a list of chores and divide them evenly (or evenly based on non-employed hours, or some other method both parties deem fair), you are missing a lot of things.  "Shop for Christmas presents for the kids, shop for gifts for family members, wrap gifts" probably isn't on that chore list, but it's a lot of work, and that's before you add the emotional labor of "be the one who remembers it's BIL or mom's birthday".  Taking kid to regular (and emergent) doctor's appointments probably doesn't make the list.  Researching to find a tutor when junior is struggling from math isn't on the list.  Planning the vacation, researching hotels, comparing prices on tour packages, seeing what resorts have kids activities, etc... not on the list. Nor is remember to buy sunscreen before they leave for the trip, ensuring passports for the family are not expired, buying the only motion sickness pills that don't make Timmy sick but keep him from barfing on the plane, having Sally try on her swimsuit and buying a new one when it's clear she's outgrown last year's... 

I think these are the tasks that end up making women (not exclusively, but as a generalization) overwhelmed, and that often go unnoticed by partners.  It's not "I'll clean the toilets if you mop the floors."   You weren't addressing me when you asked the question in a later post about whether making the list and splittng it is a bad idea.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bad idea, but I can see how it could be detrimental because when, "help Timmy with science project" and "find out what Susie wants for Christmas and then scour the world for the last remaining one of those" isn't on the list, things look fair when they aren't.  If the list isn't at least close to comprehensive, it can give a false sense of what each party is actually doing and how "fair" the split is.  And the list is likely to be very far from comprehensive because so much of this isn't stuff most parties think about.

Semi-related:  DH just had a big work milestone with an associated reception  I was helping him think through things (and we were the official hosts), but much of the execution--but not all--was being done by the work admin people.  And I was stressed.  "Do they have coolers for the drinks?  is someone buying ice that morning to put in those coolers?"  These are the types of things that are easy to forget, especially when this is a side project for someone, and that person may have never actually planned an event.  And DH said, "no one is going to judge us if it ends up that the drinks are warm because there's no ice."  And I responded that they wouldn't judge him, but yeah, some people probably would judge me.  The answer is the same for if people show up to a dinner party and the house is a mess, there are dust bunnies under the kitchen table, no one offers them water, and there's nothing for the vegetarian guest to eat.  Subconsciously (or perhaps consciously), people think, "why didn't she have a meat-free option for Jane" or "gee, you'd think she might have straightened up before we came".  So it's easy for a man to be cavalier of the house isn't perfect before company comes, or to dismiss these things, or to feel somewhat resentful that he's being asked to corral dust bunnies pre-party, because he think's a few dust tumbleweeds are NDB.  Because he doesn't experience those things the way she may.  It's not tht she cares more, or at least not *just* that she cares more. It's that those dust bunnies have a different impact on her than they do on him.  Or the warm beverages, or  the missed mother-in-law's birthday.  And who do the bored children on vacation whine to when it turns out the kids' club sucks and there's nothing for them to do?  It's easy for dad to say, "let them figure out out" because the kids aren't tugging on his swimsuit when he's trying to read on the beach.

 (Yes, lots of generalizations here, to illustrate points.)

Hey, I'm glad we're continuing the conversation and things are still civil.  It's a difficult topic and I'm glad we can discuss it with good intentions. 

I absolutely agree with the dynamic you've laid out (and others have mentioned in this thread, too).  There's the explicit list of responsibilities and then there's a whole lot of other unspoken/unstated stuff that just gets lumped onto the woman's part without discussion or acknowledgement. 

What if we added those things to the list, as they came up?  I keep coming back to the list because I think often times men are just dullards when it comes to this stuff.  They need to see it in writing to really get it.

As long as both parties are acting in good faith, I think men can be made to see that they have these blind spots.  But only if you hit them over the head with it.  Like "Look honey, here's 3 things you do and 5, 10, 15 things that I do". 

So then the onus is on the woman to be explicit about about every step and detail required in every activity so that the man will understand what needs to be done?  Isn’t this exactly the issue, that even in trying to even up the gender responsibilities, that women have to take on yet more?  The list would be miles long before every little thing involved in every activity is accounted for.  Hence why women say “never mind, I’ll just do it myself,” and men can remain blissfully oblivious.

[Tyson]

How would you solve this problem though?

Men never made the same increase in labor commitments in relationships in terms of childcare and housework and increasingly can't even financially support a family by themselves either.

My basic argument is that men need to step up to the plate, and failing to do so they will increasingly find themselves without a romantic partner as women increasingly (and very understandably) decide they are done with men in general.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed the solution. It's listening to women and adapting masculinity to the modern world.

Women are either forgoing hetero relationships or deliberately looking for male partners who will share evenly, and some butthurt boys on the internet think the solution is "manlier" men rather than listening to women. The competition isn't alpha bros, it's the peace women feel alone.

I think a lot of problems could be solved by simply making a list of ALL household chores and dividing them up evenly.  Obviously if one person works more hours than the other, the list would adapt to that. 

Why is this so hard for people?

I think in many cases, men are so far removed from the goings on of a household that they don't understand the time suck of certain things. I think even women who are doing the work sometimes aren't aware that these tasks are actual tasks and they add up.  So if you make a list of chores and divide them evenly (or evenly based on non-employed hours, or some other method both parties deem fair), you are missing a lot of things.  "Shop for Christmas presents for the kids, shop for gifts for family members, wrap gifts" probably isn't on that chore list, but it's a lot of work, and that's before you add the emotional labor of "be the one who remembers it's BIL or mom's birthday".  Taking kid to regular (and emergent) doctor's appointments probably doesn't make the list.  Researching to find a tutor when junior is struggling from math isn't on the list.  Planning the vacation, researching hotels, comparing prices on tour packages, seeing what resorts have kids activities, etc... not on the list. Nor is remember to buy sunscreen before they leave for the trip, ensuring passports for the family are not expired, buying the only motion sickness pills that don't make Timmy sick but keep him from barfing on the plane, having Sally try on her swimsuit and buying a new one when it's clear she's outgrown last year's... 

I think these are the tasks that end up making women (not exclusively, but as a generalization) overwhelmed, and that often go unnoticed by partners.  It's not "I'll clean the toilets if you mop the floors."   You weren't addressing me when you asked the question in a later post about whether making the list and splittng it is a bad idea.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bad idea, but I can see how it could be detrimental because when, "help Timmy with science project" and "find out what Susie wants for Christmas and then scour the world for the last remaining one of those" isn't on the list, things look fair when they aren't.  If the list isn't at least close to comprehensive, it can give a false sense of what each party is actually doing and how "fair" the split is.  And the list is likely to be very far from comprehensive because so much of this isn't stuff most parties think about.

Semi-related:  DH just had a big work milestone with an associated reception  I was helping him think through things (and we were the official hosts), but much of the execution--but not all--was being done by the work admin people.  And I was stressed.  "Do they have coolers for the drinks?  is someone buying ice that morning to put in those coolers?"  These are the types of things that are easy to forget, especially when this is a side project for someone, and that person may have never actually planned an event.  And DH said, "no one is going to judge us if it ends up that the drinks are warm because there's no ice."  And I responded that they wouldn't judge him, but yeah, some people probably would judge me.  The answer is the same for if people show up to a dinner party and the house is a mess, there are dust bunnies under the kitchen table, no one offers them water, and there's nothing for the vegetarian guest to eat.  Subconsciously (or perhaps consciously), people think, "why didn't she have a meat-free option for Jane" or "gee, you'd think she might have straightened up before we came".  So it's easy for a man to be cavalier of the house isn't perfect before company comes, or to dismiss these things, or to feel somewhat resentful that he's being asked to corral dust bunnies pre-party, because he think's a few dust tumbleweeds are NDB.  Because he doesn't experience those things the way she may.  It's not tht she cares more, or at least not *just* that she cares more. It's that those dust bunnies have a different impact on her than they do on him.  Or the warm beverages, or  the missed mother-in-law's birthday.  And who do the bored children on vacation whine to when it turns out the kids' club sucks and there's nothing for them to do?  It's easy for dad to say, "let them figure out out" because the kids aren't tugging on his swimsuit when he's trying to read on the beach.

 (Yes, lots of generalizations here, to illustrate points.)

Hey, I'm glad we're continuing the conversation and things are still civil.  It's a difficult topic and I'm glad we can discuss it with good intentions. 

I absolutely agree with the dynamic you've laid out (and others have mentioned in this thread, too).  There's the explicit list of responsibilities and then there's a whole lot of other unspoken/unstated stuff that just gets lumped onto the woman's part without discussion or acknowledgement. 

What if we added those things to the list, as they came up?  I keep coming back to the list because I think often times men are just dullards when it comes to this stuff.  They need to see it in writing to really get it.

As long as both parties are acting in good faith, I think men can be made to see that they have these blind spots.  But only if you hit them over the head with it.  Like "Look honey, here's 3 things you do and 5, 10, 15 things that I do". 

So then the onus is on the woman to be explicit about about every step and detail required in every activity so that the man will understand what needs to be done?  Isn’t this exactly the issue, that even in trying to even up the gender responsibilities, that women have to take on yet more?  The list would be miles long before every little thing involved in every activity is accounted for.  Hence why women say “never mind, I’ll just do it myself,” and men can remain blissfully oblivious.

Then what's a better approach?  I think we all agree that women do more than men and men are often blind to that.  What can be done to make men more aware?

[rocketpj]

There is a communication issue that is hard to resolve in any relationship.  It took a decade (and is still ongoing) for my spouse and I to really think about how the household work is divided. 

For 20 years I did 100% of the financial stuff.  Not because my wife wouldn't or couldn't, but because I preferred to know what was happening and she didn't care as much.  I also do about 98% of home maintenance, because I have the skills and interest and she emphatically has neither.  There are other things that she does much more than I, most notably in the last 10 years that includes earning money.

So, if it's Saturday and I spend 4 hours repairing some drywall and painting in our front entrance, then take one of our kids to one of their activities.  Meanwhile spouse does some cleaning and takes the other kid somewhere as well.  Then one of us cooks dinner (we both like to cook and do it pretty evenly).  Wife later expresses resentment that I didn't do any cleaning, I have feelings that my few hours of work on the house doesn't 'count'. 

That's the sort of perception and communication issue that took us years to fully resolve, and it's an ongoing thing.  Every couple eventually - with work and communication - settles on a division of labour that works for both people.  It is not easy.  My wife doesn't really think about home maintenance unless things get really bad.  I am a bit more 'mess tolerant' than her, though I do like the main areas to be tidy and clean and do plenty.

I suspect that a lot of people have never learned how to do that kind of communication without conflict.  It is essential for a long relationship to survive, because festering resentment is only going to build up to a breakdown.

[Frugal Lizard]

@rocketpj - Could some of the resentment stem from home cleaning being a chore that neither of you enjoys? I categorize home maintenance jobs in the "it lasts / shows" while cleaning and laundry are just as necessary but in a household with more than one person evidence of the task being recently completed is barely noticeable. In four days there is a lot more laundry, beds are no longer fresh and the high traffic floors have bits along the edges. It is difficult to find any joy in "not clean but not a pigsty."