Author Topic: Are social conservatives always wrong?  (Read 25104 times)

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #300 on: July 07, 2019, 03:47:52 PM »
Basic biology and reproduction is fine, but I think what conservatives fear are the things that go far beyond that.
Like what?

Non-reproductive stimulation, explicit use of birth control methods, gender identity studies and pro-gay lessons.  Basic biology is OK.  When it gets both edgy and political, it's a harder sell because it has the potential to interfere with the family's values and religion.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 03:50:11 PM by KBecks »

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #301 on: July 07, 2019, 04:26:35 PM »
Why is teaching birth control use verboten?  Especially given that teaching this is proven to reduce teen pregnancy compared to abstinence only education, I'd figure that conservatives would want this.  Since you don't I have to ask - why do you want to continue dong something known to increase teen pregnancy out of wedlock?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #302 on: July 07, 2019, 07:13:49 PM »
Why is teaching birth control use verboten?  Especially given that teaching this is proven to reduce teen pregnancy compared to abstinence only education, I'd figure that conservatives would want this.  Since you don't I have to ask - why do you want to continue dong something known to increase teen pregnancy out of wedlock?

When I was first teaching (mid-70s) my most popular class was the female reproductive system (note this was vertebrate physiology, not human physiology).  I learned to plan for really short lectures, because all the girls had masses of questions at the end of class.

But really, the time to teach the basics is just before puberty hits, because at that point it is interesting but academic, their hormones have not kicked in.

And I know an anecdote is not data, but my room-mate when I gave birth to DD (late 1980s) was a teenager who had not had any sex ed classes, came from a very strict religious background as did her boyfriend, and I think she got pregnant the first or second time they had sex - they had no clue what they were doing.  They got married, but they were only 17 or 18, just finished high school (grade 11 in Quebec then) and were about to start CEGEP.  She was putting it off for a year but I have no idea if she ever got back to school, or what he ended up doing in the way of a job, and how the marriage did. So many strikes against them.

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #303 on: July 07, 2019, 08:22:30 PM »
Why is teaching birth control use verboten?  Especially given that teaching this is proven to reduce teen pregnancy compared to abstinence only education, I'd figure that conservatives would want this.  Since you don't I have to ask - why do you want to continue dong something known to increase teen pregnancy out of wedlock?

To me, general birth control as a brief overview, along with information about abstinence (the only 100% effective method), is acceptable.  But not passing out condoms, application instructions, dental dams, creative ways to get off without risking pregnancy, etc. etc. etc. is over the top. Basic info about STDs is acceptable.  So the basics.  No one is going to come out of public education as as an expert on human sexuality, there should be some level of innocence maintained.  Informed, yes, over exposed, no. And always with parental consent, parents informed about the specific content and parental opt-outs available for their minor children.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 08:25:25 PM by KBecks »

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #304 on: July 08, 2019, 01:10:33 AM »
I think I was four years old when I first saw a ram mount a sheep (and about the same age when I was forced to cut a lamb's throat - I cried). Being able to keep sexual activity obscure is a strictly urban phenomenon. Which is funny, since so many social conservatives favour speak so fondly of Ye Olden Days On The Farm when men were men and women knew their place and all that bollocks. Like the progressives talking about the conditions of the farm animals, their ignorance of reality is embarrassing.

You can teach the mechanics of things without teaching whether those things are morally right or wrong.

This is why ideology is stupid. I mean that in the literal sense of stupid, being unable to absorb information. Ideology says we should do X or not do Y regardless of whether it works. Failing to teach children about sex, and teaching merely abstinence and not teaching about contraception, leads to higher rates of unplanned and teenaged pregnancies than teaching them about sex and contraception.

It's like the lefties denying physiology and the righties denying climate science, you can spend a lot of time sticking your fingers in your ears going "la la la I can't hear you!" yet reality marches on.

Social conservatives are not always wrong. Progressives are not always right. It's just that progressivism is fairly noisy at the moment so it's not socially acceptable to laugh at it. If social media had existed in the US in the 1980s then anybody mocking Christianity would have got into the same drama that someone mocking LGBT/etc gets into now.

I laugh at conservatism and progressivism, because both of them ignore reality when reality is inconvenient. They'd both rather be right than successful.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #305 on: July 08, 2019, 05:09:02 AM »
^^I agree with you but am confused about one thing - you wrote  "It's like the lefties denying physiology".  What physiology are they denying?

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #306 on: July 08, 2019, 05:13:27 AM »
I'm confused why people keep bringing up 'progressivism' in a discussion about social conservatism and social liberalism.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #307 on: July 08, 2019, 06:44:21 AM »
I'm confused why people keep bringing up 'progressivism' in a discussion about social conservatism and social liberalism.

Maybe every time someone does that, a reply needs to be

progressivism=/= liberalism           ?

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #308 on: July 08, 2019, 07:04:51 AM »
Why is teaching birth control use verboten?  Especially given that teaching this is proven to reduce teen pregnancy compared to abstinence only education, I'd figure that conservatives would want this.  Since you don't I have to ask - why do you want to continue dong something known to increase teen pregnancy out of wedlock?

To me, general birth control as a brief overview, along with information about abstinence (the only 100% effective method), is acceptable. 

I'm a little confused about this comment.  If the mechanics of reproduction have been taught, there's no need to mention abstinence at all, is there?  Failing to introduce sperm to an ovum will never result in pregnancy.  Those 12 words cover the topic in it's entirety.

I'm also confused by the statement that abstinence is a 100% effective method.  It's demonstrably not.  Abstinence only education has been demonstrated as the least effective method of preventing teen pregnancy.


But not passing out condoms, application instructions, dental dams, creative ways to get off without risking pregnancy, etc. etc. etc. is over the top. Basic info about STDs is acceptable.  So the basics.  No one is going to come out of public education as as an expert on human sexuality, there should be some level of innocence maintained.  Informed, yes, over exposed, no. And always with parental consent, parents informed about the specific content and parental opt-outs available for their minor children.

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #309 on: July 08, 2019, 07:06:56 AM »
I'm confused why people keep bringing up 'progressivism' in a discussion about social conservatism and social liberalism.
Because progressives are usually on the left.  Leaning authoritarian. 

As another example, look at intersectionality.  The authoritarian left got mad that non-disabled actors or non-gay actors were playing disabled characters or gay characters. 

They don't like cultural appropriation, which smells an awful lot like the puritanism of the right.

They want to ban people like Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson from speaking.  They set off fire alarms, release stink bombs, etc. 

See Antifa.  I don't think Andy Ngo would describe his recent brain hemorrhage as an indication of inclusivity.

This comes from an authoritarian "inclusive" mindset.  It's left wing and very not libertarian.

The resistance that I see from the right regarding sex ed is mostly about transgender theory that's not assessing its own risks appropriately.  Some children are transgender.  Some children are confused or in a transitional state, but not actually transgender.  We should be very careful with this, especially when it leads to elective sterilization.

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #310 on: July 08, 2019, 07:48:51 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #311 on: July 08, 2019, 07:52:54 AM »
I'm confused why people keep bringing up 'progressivism' in a discussion about social conservatism and social liberalism.
Because progressives are usually on the left.  Leaning authoritarian. 

As another example, look at intersectionality.  The authoritarian left got mad that non-disabled actors or non-gay actors were playing disabled characters or gay characters. 

They don't like cultural appropriation, which smells an awful lot like the puritanism of the right.

They want to ban people like Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson from speaking.  They set off fire alarms, release stink bombs, etc. 

See Antifa.  I don't think Andy Ngo would describe his recent brain hemorrhage as an indication of inclusivity.

This comes from an authoritarian "inclusive" mindset.  It's left wing and very not libertarian.

The resistance that I see from the right regarding sex ed is mostly about transgender theory that's not assessing its own risks appropriately.  Some children are transgender.  Some children are confused or in a transitional state, but not actually transgender.  We should be very careful with this, especially when it leads to elective sterilization.

+1.  I was offended (but didn't say anything) when my nephew's parents started telling him that he was gay.  When he was around 8-10 years.  (Note, I do not know my nephew's sexual preference at this time, at age 14.) That is wrong and inappropriate for an adult to tell a child their orientation, particularly for a child who is not yet past puberty. Why label a child or even joke about a child's future sexual preference?

There are extreme people (parents and doctors) who are doing gender reassignments on kids before puberty, before the kid has the legal ability to consent.  They say it's important to do it before puberty.  Puberty-suppression, drugs. I think that making a life-altering decision for a child at an early age is 100% wrong.  To me, it's very California-crazy vs. my Midwestern sensibilities.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 07:55:35 AM by KBecks »

FrugalToque

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #312 on: July 08, 2019, 07:59:19 AM »
To me, general birth control as a brief overview, along with information about abstinence (the only 100% effective method), is acceptable.  But not passing out condoms, application instructions, dental dams, creative ways to get off without risking pregnancy, etc. etc. etc. is over the top. Basic info about STDs is acceptable.  So the basics.  No one is going to come out of public education as as an expert on human sexuality, there should be some level of innocence maintained.  Informed, yes, over exposed, no. And always with parental consent, parents informed about the specific content and parental opt-outs available for their minor children.
To be honest, I've always gotten angry at those charts that show abstinence as 100% effective.  Yes, used properly, it's pretty much impossible to get pregnant without penetration.  But that leads people to think teaching abstinence is 100% effective, and it's clearly the least effective form of birth control education.

They have these charts in doctors' offices that show ten or twelve different b.c. methods, from the pill and condoms all the way down to spermicide and (always at the bottom) abstinence.
The chart has two columns, one for "perfect use" and one for "actual use", with the percentage effectiveness of each method.
For instance, condoms are 97% effective when used properly, but only 92% in actuality, because humans suck at birth control.
In the abstinence row, it says "100%" for perfect use and under "actual use", they leave it blank, or put "N/A".  I think that's bullshit and incredibly misleading.
If you rely on abstinence to keep teenagers from getting pregnant, the result you get is neither "100%" nor "N/A".

Toque.

JGS1980

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #313 on: July 08, 2019, 08:00:49 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.


What’s more expensive?
1. Provide free condoms
2. Provide 18 years of childcare for the child of someone who could not afford (or was unwilling) to buy Condoms.

The data is pretty clear on this one.

The point here is to do WHAT WORKS, not to impose a value judgement on teenagers who haven’t really thought things through yet. Don’t you remember being a teenager?

FrugalToque

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #314 on: July 08, 2019, 08:01:06 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.


There are, what, seven billion plus people in this world?  We obviously suck at abstinence.  You might want to factor that in to your social engineering.

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #315 on: July 08, 2019, 08:04:49 AM »
Don’t you remember being a teenager?

I was a nerd.  Still am.  Life was easy.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #316 on: July 08, 2019, 08:08:27 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.


There are, what, seven billion plus people in this world?  We obviously suck at abstinence.  You might want to factor that in to your social engineering.
1. Harm reduction has its risks, see all the needles in San Francisco.
2. Overpopulation is more complicated, and might have more to do with families in developing nations favoring sons, among other things:  the situation in India.
https://youtu.be/Uf60UQFBX8o
3.  Not all teens that have sex are using condoms or not using them because they don't know about them.

I have a friend that had an abortion when his girlfriend was 17.  They were using the pullout "method".

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #317 on: July 08, 2019, 08:09:50 AM »
This is where parents have a lot of different viewpoints, and all parents should be respected. Some parents will throw their underage kids beer parties and co-ed sleepovers and think it's cute.  Some parents will basically encourage their kids to be sexual they are old enough to handle the responsibility.  Some parents think there is no responsibility. 

But not all parents are like that, and not all parents raise their kids to be sexually active before adulthood.

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #318 on: July 08, 2019, 08:11:07 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.


There are, what, seven billion plus people in this world?  We obviously suck at abstinence.  You might want to factor that in to your social engineering.
1. Harm reduction has its risks, see all the needles in San Francisco.
2. Overpopulation is more complicated, and might have more to do with families in developing nations favoring sons, among other things:  the situation in India.
https://youtu.be/Uf60UQFBX8o
3.  Not all teens that have sex are using condoms or not using them because they don't know about them.

I have a friend that had an abortion when his girlfriend was 17.  They were using the pullout "method".

Withdrawal is definitely not abstinence, btw.

Davnasty

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #319 on: July 08, 2019, 08:18:16 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?
Not all teens have sex.

Irrelevant

Quote
Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.

Except it's not so easy for everyone. Some kids are embarrassed to buy condoms or maybe they're afraid of being "caught" by their parents. Not to mention kids just don't plan ahead. The more easily accessible they are, the more likely they are to be used.

Quote
If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

Do you honestly believe this statement is going to be the deciding factor for a teenager who wants to and has the opportunity to have sex?

Also, none of your response answered GuitarStv's question. The one reasonable response I can think of is that providing condoms is a way of saying it's ok and normal to have sex at that age. I'm not making that argument because I don't know exactly what the big picture outcome of providing condoms is, but at least it would be a logical argument.

FrugalToque

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #320 on: July 08, 2019, 08:19:33 AM »
Because progressives are usually on the left.  Leaning authoritarian. 
We may have a disagreement here on what "authoritarian" means.
I use it to mean, "wants to make laws about human behaviour".
Authoritarians on the right want to outlaw abortion, birth control, dildos, enforce church attendance and institutionalize gay conversion therapy etc.
Authoritarians on the left want to outlaw plastic bags, high pollution vehicles while illegalizing gay conversion.

Quote
As another example, look at intersectionality.  The authoritarian left got mad that non-disabled actors or non-gay actors were playing disabled characters or gay characters. 

They don't like cultural appropriation, which smells an awful lot like the puritanism of the right.
Those aren't examples of authoritarianism.  You can protest bad behaviour without wanting to make laws about it.  The bounds of what cultural appropriation is aren't universally agreed upon.  Blackface: bad.  Dressing up as "Mexican" for Hallowe'en: bad. Non-Japanese person teaching karate or non-Indian person teaching yoga after having been certified: unclear.

Quote
They want to ban people like Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson from speaking.  They set off fire alarms, release stink bombs, etc. 
Protesting is not banning.  Only a very small number of people actually want these douchebags banned.  Most of us on the left would let them speak and argue with them.  There is a point, once we're into swastikas and such, that we would all agree to just ban the person.

Quote
See Antifa.  I don't think Andy Ngo would describe his recent brain hemorrhage as an indication of inclusivity.
Not sure who this is.

Quote
This comes from an authoritarian "inclusive" mindset.  It's left wing and very not libertarian.
Yep.  The progressives used an authoritarianism "inclusive" mindset to include black people as non-slave citizens.
Later, there was the Civil Rights Act, which required Americans to treat black people like human beings.  It kinda worked and almost nobody but outright racists thinks it was bad.  So "yay" for "authoritarian inclusivity."
Later, our authoritarianism forced everyone to include gay people as eligible for marriage.
We're very bossy about inclusivity.

Quote
The resistance that I see from the right regarding sex ed is mostly about transgender theory that's not assessing its own risks appropriately.  Some children are transgender.  Some children are confused or in a transitional state, but not actually transgender.  We should be very careful with this, especially when it leads to elective sterilization.
The resistance I saw from the right on sex ed was not like this.
a) they lied that Kindergarten kids were being taught anal sex
b) they didn't want public schools teaching anything about birth control
c) they made a big deal about the Premier of Ontario being a lesbian
d) some complaints about transgender theory
e) "I don't want my kid being taught he can't make fun of Sally because she has two Moms!"

The authoritarianism of the left (putting aside the rules about pollution for now) is about teaching people not to be mean to anyone who is different.  No, you can't pick on the gay kid, or the kid with gay parents.  You can't pick on the boy who likes to wear pink or the girl who prefers the short hair cut.  We're not letting you do that.  That's our authoritarian streak.

Toque.

Jim Fiction

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #321 on: July 08, 2019, 08:26:58 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?
Not all teens have sex.

Irrelevant

Quote
Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.

Except it's not so easy for everyone. Some kids are embarrassed to buy condoms or maybe they're afraid of being "caught" by their parents. Not to mention kids just don't plan ahead. The more easily accessible they are, the more likely they are to be used.

Quote
If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

Do you honestly believe this statement is going to be the deciding factor for a teenager who wants to and has the opportunity to have sex?

Also, none of your response answered GuitarStv's question. The one reasonable response I can think of is that providing condoms is a way of saying it's ok and normal to have sex at that age. I'm not making that argument because I don't know exactly what the big picture outcome of providing condoms is, but at least it would be a logical argument.

To add on, sometimes its not as simple as "going to Target". Maybe there isn't a Target (or equivalent) nearby. Plus condoms do cost money, which a teenager may or may not have. Some places ask for I.D. when purchasing condoms, etc... So access isn't as easy as KBecks makes it out to be.

FrugalToque

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #322 on: July 08, 2019, 08:29:29 AM »
Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

There are, what, seven billion plus people in this world?  We obviously suck at abstinence.  You might want to factor that in to your social engineering.
1. Harm reduction has its risks, see all the needles in San Francisco.
2. Overpopulation is more complicated, and might have more to do with families in developing nations favoring sons, among other things:  the situation in India.
https://youtu.be/Uf60UQFBX8o
3.  Not all teens that have sex are using condoms or not using them because they don't know about them.

I have a friend that had an abortion when his girlfriend was 17.  They were using the pullout "method".

Except the stats on "harm reduction" for sexuality are clear on the fact that it does work.  States that used "abstinence only" education have much, much higher teen pregnancy rates than state that use proper sex ed.  The states that use good sex ed?  They also have teenagers who wait longer for their first penetrative sexual encounter.  These are only correlations, but they are very strong correlations.  It makes sense that giving teenagers accurate information allows them to make better decisions.

Of course, overpopulation is complicated.  It's about poverty and infant mortality and lack of female freedom.  But it's also about our inability to be good at abstinence.

Yes, teenagers make bad choices.  Our job is to give them all the information and resources, to get them to prepare themselves, so they make better choices.

Not sure what your anecdote is intended to convey.  Anyone using withdrawal as birth control is clearly uneducated.

Toque.

Jim Fiction

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #323 on: July 08, 2019, 08:33:52 AM »
Quote
See Antifa.  I don't think Andy Ngo would describe his recent brain hemorrhage as an indication of inclusivity.
Not sure who this is.


You aren't missing much:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/3/20677645/antifa-portland-andy-ngo-proud-boys

Kris

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #324 on: July 08, 2019, 08:35:20 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.  If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

LOL yeah. That'll stop 'em.

Jim Fiction

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #325 on: July 08, 2019, 08:37:16 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.  If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

LOL yeah. That'll stop 'em.

Maybe we should require mustachianism be taught in schools, that way teens could afford to have sex.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #326 on: July 08, 2019, 08:50:15 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

You didn't address my question in your response.

Why do you support an action proven to increase teen pregnancies?

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #327 on: July 08, 2019, 09:02:49 AM »
I support sterilizing both males and females until they reach age 21 and pass a drug test plus take a mandatory parenting class.

Wonder where on the political spectrum that places me...

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #328 on: July 08, 2019, 09:29:29 AM »
I'm confused why people keep bringing up 'progressivism' in a discussion about social conservatism and social liberalism.
Because progressives are usually on the left.  Leaning authoritarian. 

OK, but we weren't talking about left/right (which can mean an awful lot of different things to different people).  We were talking about social conservatism vs social liberalism.


As another example, look at intersectionality.  The authoritarian left got mad that non-disabled actors or non-gay actors were playing disabled characters or gay characters. 

This is a weird thing to get upset about.  (FWIW, I agree that it's a bit ridiculous.)  But did this 'authoritarianism' lead to a ban on actors playing gay or disabled people?  From what I'm aware it's largely a non-issue.  People who walk regularly play people in wheelchairs.  People who are straight regularly play people who are gay.


They don't like cultural appropriation, which smells an awful lot like the puritanism of the right.

Agreed.  But again . . . tempest in a teapot.  Cultural appropriation happens all the time.  It's incredibly rare that any impediment to it has come up.  Contrast this with teaching children abstinence instead of proper sex ed.  This reliably and measurably increases teen pregnancy.  It's not rare at all.  I feel like you're trying to make two things that are not at all equal, seem equal here.


They want to ban people like Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson from speaking.  They set off fire alarms, release stink bombs, etc. 

I already addressed this upthread.  There's nothing wrong with lobbying a person who owns a platform to remove speakers you consider objectionable from that platform.  That's using the same free speech that the objectionable speaker is using.

Setting off fire alarms, releasing stink bombs is way over the line though.  That's edging into coercive / terrorist action, and should be condemned.


See Antifa.  I don't think Andy Ngo would describe his recent brain hemorrhage as an indication of inclusivity.

This comes from an authoritarian "inclusive" mindset.  It's left wing and very not libertarian.

Antifa is not representative of social liberalism.  They are left wing extremists.  Again, contrast with mainstream social conservatives.  The ones who want to prevent education in schools that reduces teen pregnancy.


The resistance that I see from the right regarding sex ed is mostly about transgender theory that's not assessing its own risks appropriately.  Some children are transgender.  Some children are confused or in a transitional state, but not actually transgender.  We should be very careful with this, especially when it leads to elective sterilization.

Really?  In this thread we've got people advocating for proven poor education that leads to higher teen pregnancies in the name of social conservatism.  Nothing to do with transgender anything.

But, since you brought it up, what do you think is better for a child in a confused/transitional state?  To openly discuss the spectrum of human sexuality exists, so that they know that these feelings are natural and normal and can make up their own mind . . . or to pretend it doesn't exist and leave the children confused?

DadJokes

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #329 on: July 08, 2019, 09:29:43 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

You didn't address my question in your response.

Why do you support an action proven to increase teen pregnancies?

I grew up in a Catholic household in a very Catholic part of the country. Here is the thinking that seemed prevalent to me:

Even though statistics say that teaching teenagers how to practice safe sex will reduce both teen pregnancies and the spread of STDs, to do so would be to condone sinning. Pre-marital sex is a sin, and nothing can be taught that would even remotely indicate that practicing it is okay.

Naturally, that area is near the top of the country in both teen pregnancies and STDs.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #330 on: July 08, 2019, 09:42:24 AM »

Again, I'm not sure I understand a resistance to passing out condoms.  We know that teens will have sex.  We know that if access to birth control is difficult for them to get, they will have unprotected sex.  We know that unprotected teen sex leads to teen pregnancy.

What you advocate will cause an increase in teen pregnancies.  Why do you want this?

Not all teens have sex.  Teens who have sex can easily go to Target and get their own condoms.   If you can't afford condoms, perhaps you can't afford to have sex.

You didn't address my question in your response.

Why do you support an action proven to increase teen pregnancies?

I grew up in a Catholic household in a very Catholic part of the country. Here is the thinking that seemed prevalent to me:

Even though statistics say that teaching teenagers how to practice safe sex will reduce both teen pregnancies and the spread of STDs, to do so would be to condone sinning. Pre-marital sex is a sin, and nothing can be taught that would even remotely indicate that practicing it is okay.

Naturally, that area is near the top of the country in both teen pregnancies and STDs.


This is the punishment narrative though.

Handing out condoms is not remotely the same as condoning sex.  But it does reduce the 'punishment' of pregnancy.

We know that kids will have sex.  We can provide them with condoms so that their sex will result in far fewer teen pregnancies and abortions.  But we won't do that because the teen pregnancy and abortion is being thought of as punishment for the sin of sex.  This punishment can then what, serve as a deterrent to others?  (Even though this deterrent demonstrably doesn't work.)

That's pretty gross reasoning, but at least it explains why social conservatives act to increase teen pregnancy.

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #331 on: July 08, 2019, 09:59:41 AM »
I guess I am an idealist.  The healthiest sex is in a committed, loving relationship, and sexual experimentation before a person is ready can be emotionally and physically unhealthy.  Expecting boys or girls to have sex early is detrimental to their well-being.

I am more concerned with anything that promotes that kids should be having sex or that society expects them to, or promotes sexual activities when sex is not the business of children.  Schools are for studying.  Sex ed is about learning to make emotionally and physically healthy choices, and having a clear understanding of the human body and how kids mature into adults.

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #332 on: July 08, 2019, 10:02:18 AM »

Setting off fire alarms, releasing stink bombs is way over the line though.  That's edging into coercive / terrorist action, and should be condemned.


Condemned *and* prosecuted.

sherr

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #333 on: July 08, 2019, 11:21:18 AM »
I guess I am an idealist.  The healthiest sex is in a committed, loving relationship, and sexual experimentation before a person is ready can be emotionally and physically unhealthy.  Expecting boys or girls to have sex early is detrimental to their well-being.

I am more concerned with anything that promotes that kids should be having sex or that society expects them to, or promotes sexual activities when sex is not the business of children.  Schools are for studying.  Sex ed is about learning to make emotionally and physically healthy choices, and having a clear understanding of the human body and how kids mature into adults.

Sex education neither "expects" nor "promotes" nor "encourages" sex. It "educates" you about it, nothing more.

This is a basically the difference between conservatives and non-conservatives on this issue. Every anti-sex-ed conservative I've ever talked to gets their wires crossed about it and cannot get beyond the belief that "education is promotion!"
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 11:23:01 AM by sherr »

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #334 on: July 08, 2019, 11:27:03 AM »
The healthiest sex is in a committed, loving relationship, and sexual experimentation before a person is ready can be emotionally and physically unhealthy.  Expecting boys or girls to have sex early is detrimental to their well-being.

Agree completely.


I am more concerned with anything that promotes that kids should be having sex or that society expects them to, or promotes sexual activities when sex is not the business of children.  Schools are for studying.

This is where the problem arises.  I don't expect kids to have sex or experiment with sex.  I have data that tells me a certain (pretty large) percentage of the population will though.  I don't want to promote sexual activities in children.  I do want children who are already having sex to do so without being forced to deal with a choice of getting pregnant or dealing with an abortion.


Sex ed is about learning to make emotionally and physically healthy choices, and having a clear understanding of the human body and how kids mature into adults.

Sounds good to me.  But (for example) how do you propose that a gay child should learn to make emotionally and physically healthy choices without ever having a discussion of gay sex, and the ways to have gay sex safely?



But also, I feel like you haven't answered my question.  Why do you support an action proven to increase teen pregnancies?  Is your answer that you do so because you're an idealist rather than a realist?

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #335 on: July 08, 2019, 11:29:29 AM »

Setting off fire alarms, releasing stink bombs is way over the line though.  That's edging into coercive / terrorist action, and should be condemned.


Condemned *and* prosecuted.

I mean, I'm not sure exactly what the prosecution for stink bombs usually is . . . but yeah.  Of course they should be.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #336 on: July 08, 2019, 11:49:37 AM »
I can't deal with the nested quotes on mobile, so I'll have limited responses for now.

"OK, but we weren't talking about left/right (which can mean an awful lot of different things to different people).  We were talking about social conservatism vs social liberalism."

Saying that social conservatives are always wrong is similar to saying that social liberals are always right.  I'm using the authoritarian lefties as a contrast to the authoritarian right.  Both of these groups have their pathologies.  Social conservatives that are libertarian are not always wrong.

And left/right do not mean many different things.  They have typical tendencies that are well known.  The libertarian axis is separated from left/right.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #337 on: July 08, 2019, 11:55:30 AM »
Because progressives are usually on the left.  Leaning authoritarian. 
We may have a disagreement here on what "authoritarian" means.
I use it to mean, "wants to make laws about human behaviour".
Authoritarians on the right want to outlaw abortion, birth control, dildos, enforce church attendance and institutionalize gay conversion therapy etc.
Authoritarians on the left want to outlaw plastic bags, high pollution vehicles while illegalizing gay conversion.

Quote
As another example, look at intersectionality.  The authoritarian left got mad that non-disabled actors or non-gay actors were playing disabled characters or gay characters. 

They don't like cultural appropriation, which smells an awful lot like the puritanism of the right.
Those aren't examples of authoritarianism.  You can protest bad behaviour without wanting to make laws about it.  The bounds of what cultural appropriation is aren't universally agreed upon.  Blackface: bad.  Dressing up as "Mexican" for Hallowe'en: bad. Non-Japanese person teaching karate or non-Indian person teaching yoga after having been certified: unclear.

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They want to ban people like Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson from speaking.  They set off fire alarms, release stink bombs, etc. 
Protesting is not banning.  Only a very small number of people actually want these douchebags banned.  Most of us on the left would let them speak and argue with them.  There is a point, once we're into swastikas and such, that we would all agree to just ban the person.

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See Antifa.  I don't think Andy Ngo would describe his recent brain hemorrhage as an indication of inclusivity.
Not sure who this is.

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This comes from an authoritarian "inclusive" mindset.  It's left wing and very not libertarian.
Yep.  The progressives used an authoritarianism "inclusive" mindset to include black people as non-slave citizens.
Later, there was the Civil Rights Act, which required Americans to treat black people like human beings.  It kinda worked and almost nobody but outright racists thinks it was bad.  So "yay" for "authoritarian inclusivity."
Later, our authoritarianism forced everyone to include gay people as eligible for marriage.
We're very bossy about inclusivity.

Quote
The resistance that I see from the right regarding sex ed is mostly about transgender theory that's not assessing its own risks appropriately.  Some children are transgender.  Some children are confused or in a transitional state, but not actually transgender.  We should be very careful with this, especially when it leads to elective sterilization.
The resistance I saw from the right on sex ed was not like this.
a) they lied that Kindergarten kids were being taught anal sex
b) they didn't want public schools teaching anything about birth control
c) they made a big deal about the Premier of Ontario being a lesbian
d) some complaints about transgender theory
e) "I don't want my kid being taught he can't make fun of Sally because she has two Moms!"

The authoritarianism of the left (putting aside the rules about pollution for now) is about teaching people not to be mean to anyone who is different.  No, you can't pick on the gay kid, or the kid with gay parents.  You can't pick on the boy who likes to wear pink or the girl who prefers the short hair cut.  We're not letting you do that.  That's our authoritarian streak.

Toque.

Authoritarians on the left killed the kulaks by the millions.
 They scream people down and incite anarchist violence, like antifa.  They are eager to paint people like Shapiro as Nazis.  They bring garrottes to Jordan Peterson protests and smash old, historical university windows.  They try to lock conservatives in a room with a chain, they hit people with bike locks, they affect organizations like Google who have been shown to have a left wing bias as per Veritas Videos.

Those people are the chaos of the left and they are also dangerous.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #338 on: July 08, 2019, 12:05:29 PM »
I can't deal with the nested quotes on mobile, so I'll have limited responses for now.

"OK, but we weren't talking about left/right (which can mean an awful lot of different things to different people).  We were talking about social conservatism vs social liberalism."

Saying that social conservatives are always wrong is similar to saying that social liberals are always right.  I'm using the authoritarian lefties as a contrast to the authoritarian right.  Both of these groups have their pathologies.  Social conservatives that are libertarian are not always wrong.

And left/right do not mean many different things.  They have typical tendencies that are well known.  The libertarian axis is separated from left/right.

Social conservatives can always be wrong without social liberals always being right.  One does not follow logically from the other.  While they disagree on social issues, there can be overlap between the groups on economic and political issues.

You've claimed that left/right do not mean different things.  Can you summarize what you believe they mean in the context of your post?

What is the 'libertarian axis' you're referring to?

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #339 on: July 08, 2019, 12:11:08 PM »

Sex ed is about learning to make emotionally and physically healthy choices, and having a clear understanding of the human body and how kids mature into adults.

Sounds good to me.  But (for example) how do you propose that a gay child should learn to make emotionally and physically healthy choices without ever having a discussion of gay sex, and the ways to have gay sex safely?



But also, I feel like you haven't answered my question.  Why do you support an action proven to increase teen pregnancies?  Is your answer that you do so because you're an idealist rather than a realist?

Regarding where you learn to have safe sex, and thinking about it more, it seems more appropriate to have those conversations with the family physician, and parents.  Basic science and reproductive health in schools sure, but personal particulars with the family doctor.
I have not finished thinking through the rest of it yet.

KBecks

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #340 on: July 08, 2019, 12:13:17 PM »

Setting off fire alarms, releasing stink bombs is way over the line though.  That's edging into coercive / terrorist action, and should be condemned.


Condemned *and* prosecuted.

I mean, I'm not sure exactly what the prosecution for stink bombs usually is . . . but yeah.  Of course they should be.

I think it would fall under a disorderly conduct type ticket.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #341 on: July 08, 2019, 12:34:16 PM »
Social conservatives can always be wrong without social liberals always being right.  One does not follow logically from the other.  While they disagree on social issues, there can be overlap between the groups on economic and political issues.
My point is that neither case is particularly likely.  And I have made a case in this thread that some social conservative ideas are useful and some social liberal ones are not. 

 
Quote
You've claimed that left/right do not mean different things.  Can you summarize what you believe they mean in the context of your post?
I said they don't mean MANY different things.  Since you said that left/right mean different things to different people.  I do not agree with this; the differences are well known and well distinguished.

What is the 'libertarian axis' you're referring to?
[/quote]

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #342 on: July 08, 2019, 12:35:23 PM »
The libertarian axis is what I posted a few posts back, that left/right is a separate axis from authoritarian/libertarian.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #343 on: July 08, 2019, 12:41:48 PM »

Sex ed is about learning to make emotionally and physically healthy choices, and having a clear understanding of the human body and how kids mature into adults.

Sounds good to me.  But (for example) how do you propose that a gay child should learn to make emotionally and physically healthy choices without ever having a discussion of gay sex, and the ways to have gay sex safely?



But also, I feel like you haven't answered my question.  Why do you support an action proven to increase teen pregnancies?  Is your answer that you do so because you're an idealist rather than a realist?

Regarding where you learn to have safe sex, and thinking about it more, it seems more appropriate to have those conversations with the family physician, and parents.  Basic science and reproductive health in schools sure, but personal particulars with the family doctor.
I have not finished thinking through the rest of it yet.



Not everyone has a family physician*.  Even the ones that do, often do not have the ability to simply call up and make an appointment with a doctor.  Not everyone's parents are supportive of their children having sex.  Not everyone's parents are supportive of their children being gay, and even the ones who are likely do not have experience with gay sex.  Even if they do, not all parents are comfortable talking about this information with their children.

All together, this indicates that a large number of people will simply not be taught to make emotionally and physically healthy choices by your plan.  So, again . . . it seems that what you want to do will result in failure to achieve the stated goals.  Why then, do you think this is a better plan than education through schools?




(* Frankly, there are some huge issues with the idea of foisting the responsibility of educating a child about sex onto a doctor.  It's a tremendous waste of their time, radically more expensive, and not something that doctors are trained to do.)

iris lily

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #344 on: July 08, 2019, 01:31:30 PM »
Look I am all for most all info being available  to kids and pre teens and teens as interests them.

But if you all don't hear your self righteous value laden opinions in this thread, that is part of the problem. My kid, my choice.Your kid, your choice and lay on your values all you like.

What values, you ask?
If you all think that my teenager cannot  control himself, my teenager needs facts prior to  that puberty of his/hers that renders his/her brain all crazy-like,  my teenager must have condoms shoved into his/her  hands...etc...then I say you do not know my theoretical teenager. These things may or may not be true, and to varying degrees.But you dont know.

I agree with this if you allow me to add a word or two : [good] Sex education neither "expects" nor "promotes" nor "encourages" sex. It "educates" you [well] about it, nothing more (where “well” and “good” include curriculum  individually tailored to the minor.) i have nothing against that.

And for the record, I would likely think is fine for my (theoretical) child to attend these public school information sessions because even if not exactly the right information at exactly the right time, my kid will be well adjusted enough to take what is useful and leave the rest. Then I would, at home, supplement what is needed.

Some real facts about teenage pregnancy is that many teen choose it. Or at least, they are not proactive in preventing it. They very well know what causes pregnancy. They have access to birth  control. But they choose to have a baby because babies are the norm at home, those are the values of their family and culture. The book that really opened my eyes to this and one I mention often is “Promises I Can Keep” about teenage single mothers in the urban underclass. Those values spread ipwards into middle-class land. Not good.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 01:34:24 PM by iris lily »

GuitarStv

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #345 on: July 08, 2019, 02:04:48 PM »
Look I am all for most all info being available  to kids and pre teens and teens as interests them.

But if you all don't hear your self righteous value laden opinions in this thread, that is part of the problem. My kid, my choice.Your kid, your choice and lay on your values all you like.

If you all think that my teenager cannot  control himself, my teenager needs facts prior to  that puberty of his/hers that renders his/her brain all crazy-like,  my teenager must have condoms shoved into his/her  hands...etc...then I say you do not know my theoretical teenager. These things may or may not be true, and to varying degrees.But you dont know.

Sex ed in schools typically is provided with the option for parents to opt their kids out, right?  Nobody is shoving anything in anyone's faces.

Nobody is saying anything about your teenager - as you mentioned, we don't know your kid.  That's why, if you want to keep your kid from learning about sex in school (for whatever reason) you have that option.

What you shouldn't be able to do is prevent other children from getting this education.  Because you don't know them.

iris lily

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #346 on: July 08, 2019, 02:13:52 PM »
Look I am all for most all info being available  to kids and pre teens and teens as interests them.

But if you all don't hear your self righteous value laden opinions in this thread, that is part of the problem. My kid, my choice.Your kid, your choice and lay on your values all you like.

If you all think that my teenager cannot  control himself, my teenager needs facts prior to  that puberty of his/hers that renders his/her brain all crazy-like,  my teenager must have condoms shoved into his/her  hands...etc...then I say you do not know my theoretical teenager. These things may or may not be true, and to varying degrees.But you dont know.

Sex ed in schools typically is provided with the option for parents to opt their kids out, right?  Nobody is shoving anything in anyone's faces.

If that is the standard thing, ok. I will take your word for it.

Quote

What you shouldn't be able to do is prevent other children from getting this education.  Because you don't know them.

Yes,, that is a good point. This education will be fine for some kids, not so much perhaps for a few others, but those latter ones are not the problem of my immediate sphere of responsibility.


jeninco

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #347 on: July 08, 2019, 04:14:44 PM »
As someone with actual teenagers in actual school (in a state where the health curriculum, including sex ed, is pretty comprehensive) I have some thoughts about this.

My observation is that teenagers seem to fall (at least in this matter) into two buckets: the "not going to have sex in high school" bucket, and the "hell yeah!" bucket. I was in bucket 1.  MrInCO was in bucket 2. We have one teenage son in each bucket.  This is not because our values changed mid-child-rearing, it's because they're different people. I've also noticed that adults who themselves were in bucket 1 have a hard time imagining that some kids would legitimately be in bucket 2, and can be pretty judgy about it.

After quite a bit of thought about this, and nonjudgmental discussion with a surprising number of people in real life, who grew up all over the US and various other parts of the world, I've about decided that "know your own kid" should be a guiding principle.

But also that ALL kids should be educated about the basics of how sex works, what the more common variations are (i.e. gay/straight/??), why what they see online is unreal, and, yes, how to apply a condom. With practice (on a broomstick, duh): no condom is going to apply itself, and it's fairly important that it be used correctly, whenever it is that you use it. Also discussion about respecting other people's desires, being able to communicate clearly, and the advantages of various types of birth control, including abstinence.

Because even if you're in bucket 1, your kid may not be -- and even if s/he is now, at some point sex and desire are likely to happen, and having some basic knowledge is never a bad thing.

And FYI, condoms in person at drugstores cost about an hour's work (or more) at tipped minimum wage per package of 3 - 6. If you're a high school student, that's a meaningful amount, and you still have to walk in , take it off the shelf, (or ask for it, if it's behind the counter), pay the cashier... if you're living in a place where that's going to get back to your disapproving parents, that's a big deal for a teenager. (I happen to think that if you can't go to the store and buy your own you shouldn't be having sex, but I don't deeply disapprove, so my kids don't have that fear.)

If the overarching concern is to prevent unwanted and teen pregnancies and STDs, condoms should be readily available, and everyone should know how to use them. It's another kind of harm reduction: you can continue the conversation about values, but meanwhile STDs aren't being spread, and pregnancies aren't occurring. And, seriously, preventing people who are not you from accessing reliable birth control is just another way of controlling young people, and female people.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #348 on: July 08, 2019, 05:50:55 PM »
^^I agree with you but am confused about one thing - you wrote  "It's like the lefties denying physiology".  What physiology are they denying?
Gender.


However, progressive denial of physiological science has less consequences for the world than conservative denial of climate science.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 05:59:43 PM by Kyle Schuant »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are social conservatives always wrong?
« Reply #349 on: July 08, 2019, 06:03:26 PM »
^^I agree with you but am confused about one thing - you wrote  "It's like the lefties denying physiology".  What physiology are they denying?
Gender.


However, progressive denial of physiological science has less consequences for the world than conservative denial of climate science.
Your sick gains with the barbell aren't socially constructed?