Author Topic: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?  (Read 25099 times)

GU

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #150 on: March 20, 2017, 05:57:30 PM »
OP here.  I've already welcomed a right-wing counterpart thread.  Have at it.  And if you read through this (admittedly) very long thread, nearly all the comments have been respectful. 

In case you're wondering, I would guess that hypocrisy is pretty evenly distributed between Left and Right.

If that's true, why not title the thread "Are Mustacians Hypocrites?"  Why specify only left (or only right, for that matter)?  Do you feel that left wing hypocrisy is somehow worse than right wing hypocrisy?

Mostly because I wasn't able to come up with reasons--during the admittedly short time I thought about it--for why Mustachianism is incompatible with right-wing views.  As I noted, I think there are plenty of hypocrites on the Right, but being Mustachian seems compatible with being right-wing.  It would be interesting to hear arguments for why right-wing Mustachians are hypocritical. 

Johnez

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #151 on: March 20, 2017, 11:05:53 PM »
Seems some mustachians are a bit sensitive. Calling a group of people hypocritical is miles away from calling them idiots. It's a shame the PC police can't let a decent discussion go on without raising the "I'm offended!" flag....

EnjoyIt

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #152 on: March 20, 2017, 11:53:10 PM »
I find the PC police comical, looking for any little thing and call out shenanigans.  PC police is a way to stifle free speech.  We are having a very reasonable discussion.  No need to get the cops involved.

I am not a republican, I am fiscally conservative though and will defend my views.
-Right wing is against big government but your Mustachian lifestyle relies on all sorts of government programs: roads, the existence of qualified retirement plans, social security, obamacare, etc
-Right wing is against high taxes but again you benefit from all those government programs
-Right wing is against immigration but how many of you are immigrants or want to take advantage of other county's residency policies (ex pats)
-Right wing bans travel from certain countries, but you travel
-Right wing supports conservative christian values, but how many of you tithe (some, but not all)
-etc

1) Government programs:  I save in a way that will not require social security.  I do not expect it and do not plan for it.  If it comes I will take it because I payed into it, but would rather have paid less (to help cover some of the destitute seniors) and get nothing at all. If my taxes were lower and there were no 401k I would be thrilled with that.  Infrastructure and defense is the core responsibility of the government and what our taxes should go to. And lastly I am not a fan of Obamacare.

2) I am against increasing taxes.  I think our government has way too much waste and a spending problem rather than an income problem.  Clean up government and make it more efficient before even thinking about taking another percent of my hard work.

3) I am not against immigration especially being an immigrant myself.  I am against allowing criminals into this country.  In reality our country has a very rigorous 18-24 month refugee acceptance program.  Those people are vetted very well in my opinion.  Maybe there is room for improvement, but I do not know the process well enough to give suggestions.  I do have a problem allowing in people who believe homosexuality is punishable by death, that women have no freedom and can be killed for adultery or for even being raped.  I strongly have a problem when people think that insulting Islam is punishable by violence.  I can't imagine a single person conservative or liberal who would want anyone like that living next door and neither do I and therefor agree with a strong vetting process.  I am not against legal immigration of people into this country.

4) Banning travel yet I travel: I honestly don't see the comparison. People who believe that Sharia Law should be the law of the land also believe in some very hateful criminal behavior as well. After all, it is part of Sharia Law. I have no criminal intent or beliefs and therefor pose no risk to others. I can and will travel at will.

5) I do not support conservative Christian values.  I believe religion is a form of brainwashing to gain control, power and money. I have no intent in donating to any religious organization.

The reality is I am not right wing.  I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I think people have the right to do whatever they want to themselves as long as they do not hurt others.  That includes, Abortion, drugs, sexual preferences, genital mutilation, or whatever else they fancy on themselves. I am a proponent of free speech, even speech that makes fun of or insults other groups.  I have the right to speak and other have the right to walk away and not listen. 

My biggest issue with our government is that the left thinks we need to tax people more to help out others and I think there is no limit to how much people want and will take for help therefor there is no limit to taxation.  We need to draw a line as a society.  If we want everyone to have access to healthcare, then make it more affordable.  If a person can't afford premium healthcare, then it will be rationed out based on severity of illness.  People will need to wait in lines, when admitted they should not have private rooms, they should not get the newest or latest drugs but choose more cost effective therapies that have similar outcomes.  If we want to eliminate poverty we should help the mentally ill better.  Maybe empty out all those jails of non violent drug offenses and use the money to fund mental health clinics and hospitals instead.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #153 on: March 21, 2017, 03:29:21 AM »
Seems some mustachians are a bit sensitive. Calling a group of people hypocritical is miles away from calling them idiots. It's a shame the PC police can't let a decent discussion go on without raising the "I'm offended!" flag....
Calling out people's cognitive dissonance is a pretty effective way to elicit a defensive response. It's a common, natural human reaction, but it can be overcome with practice.

TPGW

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #154 on: March 21, 2017, 05:56:40 AM »
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Calling out people's cognitive dissonance is a pretty effective way to elicit a defensive response.

Ha, indeed.  I think we all need to get practicing. 

47%MMM

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #155 on: March 21, 2017, 07:23:56 AM »

As for consumption taxes, again, I've seen tons of data showing that the poorest 1/5 of Americans spend something like 90-95% of their money on taxable goods and services, so sales taxes, rent taxes, vehicle license taxes, property taxes, etc are all taxes that they are paying. 


Virtually all the states exempt rent, groceries, prescription drugs, and medical services from sales tax.  Many states also exempt clothing from sales tax.  How could the poor spend 90% - 95% on taxable goods?  If you don't own property you don't pay property tax.  I've never heard of a rent tax--please give me an example of a state that taxes residential rent payments.  The poor certainly pay taxes, but I don't think your assertions are quite correct.

I agree with you that groceries, prescription drugs, and medical services are usually exempt but as a landlord, I can assure you that tenants are paying property taxes. The amount is just baked into their rent so they don't see it but they are paying it.

financepatriot@gmail.com

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #156 on: March 21, 2017, 08:11:46 AM »
You can't judge a book by its cover.  I ride my bike to work, does this make me a leftist tree hugger?  I just planted a free tree in my yard, and if I got more free one's from my son's school, I would plant those as well.  I love trees, but mature ones sure take a while.

Does this tell you how I vote?  My utility bills are bare bones because we use our heat and AC sparingly.  I am at work right now so our HVAC units are both off right now completely. 

So this perhaps is a chicken and egg argument.  MMM probably attracts left leaning readers.  That is fine, we all can take what we want from it. 

My own personal philosophy is you work in the hand you were dealt with.  I didn't create this system, and my perfect world would probably be closer to Pre-China Hong Kong.  However, I happily live here, as an adult and by my own free will.  Given my US citizenship, many in the world would love to have the luxury of the work opportunities I have.  So I try not complain, and try to outsmart the system instead.  It is what it is. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #157 on: March 21, 2017, 08:39:33 AM »
OP here.  I've already welcomed a right-wing counterpart thread.  Have at it.  And if you read through this (admittedly) very long thread, nearly all the comments have been respectful. 

In case you're wondering, I would guess that hypocrisy is pretty evenly distributed between Left and Right.

If that's true, why not title the thread "Are Mustacians Hypocrites?"  Why specify only left (or only right, for that matter)?  Do you feel that left wing hypocrisy is somehow worse than right wing hypocrisy?

Mostly because I wasn't able to come up with reasons--during the admittedly short time I thought about it--for why Mustachianism is incompatible with right-wing views.  As I noted, I think there are plenty of hypocrites on the Right, but being Mustachian seems compatible with being right-wing.  It would be interesting to hear arguments for why right-wing Mustachians are hypocritical.

I've read every article on Mr Money Moustache, and I don't think Mustachianism is right-wing at all.  Mustachianism is anti-political except for the single issue of environmentalism / better urban planning.  And the right-wing is working to gut the EPA right now.  I don't recall this site ever having articles about "mustachianism is anti-abortion", "mustachianians like guns".  The guy is Canadian for Christ sakes.

Unless you think that the central philosophy of being right wing is being self sufficient and working independently to achieve your goals and all left wing people would rather the government take care of everything and provide universal basic income and free college, etc. for all citizens.  Just know that I am a moderate democrat and don't think that philosophy represents all left-wing people, but more the fringe liberal left.
I think it was pointed out that even though many mustachians, including Pete claim to support the environment, they also celebrate and support activities that needlessly ruin it, such as regular international flights to tourist destinations, building brand new houses, etc. etc.

TPGW

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #158 on: March 21, 2017, 09:37:24 AM »
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including Pete claim to support the environment, they also celebrate and support activities that needlessly ruin it

I think this one is more complicated than that. MMM and others here would advocate for reducing your carbon footprint and overall impact on the environment.  It's hard to quantify, but the general principal might be: try to cause less environmental damage than the average American.  I don't think the philosophy is to never negatively affect the environment. 

A lot of people here are riding their bikes frequently, rarely using a car, and living in a modest sized house.  Even if they then fly a little more frequently than average, I'd say their net environmental impact is still far less than the average American.  In this situation people are living by their principals. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 10:06:40 AM by TPGW »

Metric Mouse

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2017, 09:53:06 AM »
I don't agree that people that aspire to retire early travel on planes more than the general population does.  The typical American flies on a plane often, because we are wealthy enough to go on vacations wherever, travel for work, etc.  Mustachians that are accumulating for retirement are probably rationing their expensive vacation budgets to exotic locales and doing more staycations.  Early retirees on a fixed income don't have the money to fly around the world, don't travel for work, and do more slow traveling.
Mustachians wouldn't need to travel more than average; they would need to care about the environment more than average, which you stated above was a tenet of mustachinism - 'environmentalism/urban planning'. Since at almost any level air travel is incredibly damaging to the environment and almost exclusively a luxury that is unneeded for quality of life, anyone who claims to honestly care about the environment while simultaneously utilizing air travel could be considered to be performing actions inconsistent with their stated views, especially if they travel more as a retiree than they did while working, (which many on this forum do) though this is not necessary. Slow travelling is just as damaging, if one takes a plane to get to where they are slow travelling.

GU

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #160 on: March 21, 2017, 10:47:21 AM »
OP here.  I've already welcomed a right-wing counterpart thread.  Have at it.  And if you read through this (admittedly) very long thread, nearly all the comments have been respectful. 

In case you're wondering, I would guess that hypocrisy is pretty evenly distributed between Left and Right.

If that's true, why not title the thread "Are Mustacians Hypocrites?"  Why specify only left (or only right, for that matter)?  Do you feel that left wing hypocrisy is somehow worse than right wing hypocrisy?

Mostly because I wasn't able to come up with reasons--during the admittedly short time I thought about it--for why Mustachianism is incompatible with right-wing views.  As I noted, I think there are plenty of hypocrites on the Right, but being Mustachian seems compatible with being right-wing.  It would be interesting to hear arguments for why right-wing Mustachians are hypocritical.

I've read every article on Mr Money Moustache, and I don't think Mustachianism is right-wing at all.  Mustachianism is anti-political except for the single issue of environmentalism / better urban planning.  And the right-wing is working to gut the EPA right now.  I don't recall this site ever having articles about "mustachianism is anti-abortion", "mustachianians like guns".  The guy is Canadian for Christ sakes.

Unless you think that the central philosophy of being right wing is being self sufficient and working independently to achieve your goals and all left wing people would rather the government take care of everything and provide universal basic income and free college, etc. for all citizens.  Just know that I am a moderate democrat and don't think that philosophy represents all left-wing people, but more the fringe liberal left.
I think it was pointed out that even though many mustachians, including Pete claim to support the environment, they also celebrate and support activities that needlessly ruin it, such as regular international flights to tourist destinations, building brand new houses, etc. etc.

I don't agree that people that aspire to retire early travel on planes more than the general population does.  The typical American flies on a plane often, because we are wealthy enough to go on vacations wherever, travel for work, etc.  Mustachians that are accumulating for retirement are probably rationing their expensive vacation budgets to exotic locales and doing more staycations.  Early retirees on a fixed income don't have the money to fly around the world, don't travel for work, and do more slow traveling.

I don't think it's correct to say that the typical American flies on a plane often.  In 2015, only 45% of Americans flew somewhere (domestic or international).  And I would guess that for many of those people, they only took one flight the whole year.  In 2015, 19% of Americans had never taken a commercial flight in their liveshttps://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed/2016/04/14/americans-love-to-fly-they-also-complain-about-it-a-lot-but-probably-less-than-you-think/#5b8aa1446423  A relatively small percentage of people do the vast majority of the flying.  Most Americans don't even have a passport (about 36% have one).

GU

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2017, 10:53:20 AM »
MetricMouse has already handled this point, but just to clarify even further, I never stated that Mustachianism is a right-wing philosophy (or a left-wing philosophy).  I believe Mustachianism as preached by MMM is apolitical. The OP suggests that there are some aspects of Mustachianism that conflict with common left-wing views.  But that point is not meant to imply that Mustachianism is right-wing. 

bacchi

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #162 on: March 21, 2017, 10:53:45 AM »
Quote
including Pete claim to support the environment, they also celebrate and support activities that needlessly ruin it

I think this one is more complicated than that. MMM and others here would advocate for reducing your carbon footprint and overall impact on the environment.  It's hard to quantify, but the general principal might be: try to cause less environmental damage than the average American.  I don't think the philosophy is to never negatively affect the environment. 

A lot of people here are riding their bikes frequently, rarely using a car, and living in a modest sized house.  Even if they then fly a little more frequently than average, I'd say their net environmental impact is still far less than the average American.  In this situation people are living by their principals.

Exactly. If the definition is to "care about the environment more than average," (see above by MM) that can be easily met by driving very little, which is 4-5 tons of CO2/year, flying ~twice from JFK-LHR, and living in a smaller house than average. As CO2 is fungible, this doesn't have to be a guessing game or a blame game.

Gondolin

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #163 on: March 21, 2017, 12:45:32 PM »
Quote
especially if they travel more as a retiree than they did while working, (which many on this forum do) though this is not necessary.

While *technically* correct, it's awfully hard to care about +1-2 extra flights I *might* make in retirement when my employer consumes hundreds of seats per day for business purposes.

Can't seem to find any hard data on the breakout between business / leisure / commercial freight / military as percentages of total air traffic.

tyort1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #164 on: March 21, 2017, 01:56:35 PM »
I'm going to fly to visit family in Germany whether I'm an MMMer or not.  So that is a given impact that is not going to change.  But driving less, being more energy efficient with my home, living in a modest size home, all these things do, in fact, reduce my carbon footprint. 

Without MMM, I'd take the flights, PLUS living in a big house, PLUS run the AC and heater like crazy, PLUS drive around tons in my car, etc....

So, for me, doing MMM doesn't lead to perfection, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than it was before.

stoaX

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #165 on: March 21, 2017, 02:37:58 PM »
I'm going to fly to visit family in Germany whether I'm an MMMer or not.  So that is a given impact that is not going to change.  But driving less, being more energy efficient with my home, living in a modest size home, all these things do, in fact, reduce my carbon footprint. 

Without MMM, I'd take the flights, PLUS living in a big house, PLUS run the AC and heater like crazy, PLUS drive around tons in my car, etc....

So, for me, doing MMM doesn't lead to perfection, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than it was before.

Well said.   And true in more ways than just environmentally. 

Telecaster

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #166 on: March 21, 2017, 03:05:27 PM »

I think it was pointed out that even though many mustachians, including Pete claim to support the environment, they also celebrate and support activities that needlessly ruin it, such as regular international flights to tourist destinations, building brand new houses, etc. etc.

I haven't heard Pete or anyone else say humans should have zero impact on the environment. 

RangerOne

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #167 on: March 21, 2017, 04:06:57 PM »
I find the PC police comical, looking for any little thing and call out shenanigans.  PC police is a way to stifle free speech.  We are having a very reasonable discussion.  No need to get the cops involved.

I am not a republican, I am fiscally conservative though and will defend my views.
-Right wing is against big government but your Mustachian lifestyle relies on all sorts of government programs: roads, the existence of qualified retirement plans, social security, obamacare, etc
-Right wing is against high taxes but again you benefit from all those government programs
-Right wing is against immigration but how many of you are immigrants or want to take advantage of other county's residency policies (ex pats)
-Right wing bans travel from certain countries, but you travel
-Right wing supports conservative christian values, but how many of you tithe (some, but not all)
-etc

1) Government programs:  I save in a way that will not require social security.  I do not expect it and do not plan for it.  If it comes I will take it because I payed into it, but would rather have paid less (to help cover some of the destitute seniors) and get nothing at all. If my taxes were lower and there were no 401k I would be thrilled with that.  Infrastructure and defense is the core responsibility of the government and what our taxes should go to. And lastly I am not a fan of Obamacare.

2) I am against increasing taxes.  I think our government has way too much waste and a spending problem rather than an income problem.  Clean up government and make it more efficient before even thinking about taking another percent of my hard work.

3) I am not against immigration especially being an immigrant myself.  I am against allowing criminals into this country.  In reality our country has a very rigorous 18-24 month refugee acceptance program.  Those people are vetted very well in my opinion.  Maybe there is room for improvement, but I do not know the process well enough to give suggestions.  I do have a problem allowing in people who believe homosexuality is punishable by death, that women have no freedom and can be killed for adultery or for even being raped.  I strongly have a problem when people think that insulting Islam is punishable by violence.  I can't imagine a single person conservative or liberal who would want anyone like that living next door and neither do I and therefor agree with a strong vetting process.  I am not against legal immigration of people into this country.

4) Banning travel yet I travel: I honestly don't see the comparison. People who believe that Sharia Law should be the law of the land also believe in some very hateful criminal behavior as well. After all, it is part of Sharia Law. I have no criminal intent or beliefs and therefor pose no risk to others. I can and will travel at will.

5) I do not support conservative Christian values.  I believe religion is a form of brainwashing to gain control, power and money. I have no intent in donating to any religious organization.

The reality is I am not right wing.  I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I think people have the right to do whatever they want to themselves as long as they do not hurt others.  That includes, Abortion, drugs, sexual preferences, genital mutilation, or whatever else they fancy on themselves. I am a proponent of free speech, even speech that makes fun of or insults other groups.  I have the right to speak and other have the right to walk away and not listen. 

My biggest issue with our government is that the left thinks we need to tax people more to help out others and I think there is no limit to how much people want and will take for help therefor there is no limit to taxation.  We need to draw a line as a society.  If we want everyone to have access to healthcare, then make it more affordable.  If a person can't afford premium healthcare, then it will be rationed out based on severity of illness.  People will need to wait in lines, when admitted they should not have private rooms, they should not get the newest or latest drugs but choose more cost effective therapies that have similar outcomes.  If we want to eliminate poverty we should help the mentally ill better.  Maybe empty out all those jails of non violent drug offenses and use the money to fund mental health clinics and hospitals instead.

I don't think the opinions you expressed here are uncommon on this site and I agree with most of them even though I would say I lean more liberal than libertarian as to how small I think the government needs to get.

You express one sentiment in particular that I think is prevalent on this site and it also speaks to why we aren't typically hardcore Democrat to the point of being reliant on their social programs. That is, most of us believe in saving as much as possible and investing to hedge our bets. We welcome government assistance to live better but we plan as if it won't be there, because well it might not. It is only prudent to plan for the worst case that social security is destroyed and the government mails out final checks to everyone and calls it a day.

I would guess at some point the more liberal voices on this site became most prominent. And the deeply religious Republican conservatives avoid many political discussions for fear of getting flamed. The libertarian minded people end up speaking up for the conservative viewpoint because they share more common ground and can generally avoid the most emotionally touchy issues.

RangerOne

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #168 on: March 21, 2017, 04:15:17 PM »
In this case I think it is foolish to take the thread title as offensive given the nature of the discussion that followed. I would say it was just proactive enough to where it could go either way. But clearly the OP's initial discussion did not appear trollish or derogatory.

It is not an unreasonable question to ask though it does speak to the strength of the narrative that the Republican's and conservatives have woven that they are the voice of the "self made man".

And that the Democrats are all about big government and letting leaches take the easy way out.

If any thing this site should stand as some proof that good, fiscally intelligent, hard working people can fairly utilize a more socially liberal system of government without being leaches or feeling victimized by taxes and government overreached.

Hargrove

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #169 on: March 21, 2017, 05:19:22 PM »
In this case I think it is foolish to take the thread title as offensive given the nature of the discussion that followed.

Those two things are completely unrelated.

Quote
And the deeply religious Republican conservatives almost everyone avoid(s) many political discussions for fear of getting flamed.

The bigger point:

Quote
So, for me, doing MMM doesn't lead to perfection, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than it was before.

Absolutely. Nothing leads to perfection. There isn't a perfect system or a perfect adherent to a system. We're people. If we had a perfect system, we'd mess it up anyway. Even when the goal is perfection, throwing out "anything short of" perfection is usually a terrible waste. Aim for the stars and at least you'll hit the moon.

Gin1984

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #170 on: March 22, 2017, 06:13:32 AM »
In this case I think it is foolish to take the thread title as offensive given the nature of the discussion that followed. I would say it was just proactive enough to where it could go either way. But clearly the OP's initial discussion did not appear trollish or derogatory.

It is not an unreasonable question to ask though it does speak to the strength of the narrative that the Republican's and conservatives have woven that they are the voice of the "self made man".

And that the Democrats are all about big government and letting leaches take the easy way out.

If any thing this site should stand as some proof that good, fiscally intelligent, hard working people can fairly utilize a more socially liberal system of government without being leaches or feeling victimized by taxes and government overreached.
You mean the lies that the GOP has tried for years to get people to believe, that are not true.  Most members of GOP are not self-made and most liberal states give more to the federal government than they take. 

hoping2retire35

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #171 on: March 22, 2017, 09:54:25 AM »
People above are offering straw men among others. To just say you are better than before is good for you, but that is not what the OP asked.

If you are an individual who promotes stricter environmental controls and greater governmental imposed social justice; then is it is hypocritical to retire (stop working/contributing to societies needs) and fly to distant locals(burning tons of fossil fuels) all they while putting a Bernie sign in your front yard (so you can look at it as you contemplate life or just netflix from your living room), or a sierra club sticker on your Samsonite luggage you will be hauling on your next trip to asia.

bacchi

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #172 on: March 22, 2017, 10:19:25 AM »
People above are offering straw men among others. To just say you are better than before is good for you, but that is not what the OP asked.

If you are an individual who promotes stricter environmental controls and greater governmental imposed social justice; then is it is hypocritical to retire (stop working/contributing to societies needs) and fly to distant locals(burning tons of fossil fuels) all they while putting a Bernie sign in your front yard (so you can look at it as you contemplate life or just netflix from your living room), or a sierra club sticker on your Samsonite luggage you will be hauling on your next trip to asia.

No, it's not.

Hypocritical would be stating, "No one should EVER fly anywhere because of the environment!" and then getting into a plane to fly across the nation.
Hypocritical would be stating, "No one should commute in an SUV!" and then driving an SUV every day to work.
Hypocritical would be stating, "Only truly poor people should take SNAP!" and then applying because your income is low, though your assets reach $2MM.

No one is stating that; therefore, no one is being hypocritical. You're offering a straw man argument.


tyort1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #173 on: March 22, 2017, 10:28:25 AM »
People above are offering straw men among others. To just say you are better than before is good for you, but that is not what the OP asked.

If you are an individual who promotes stricter environmental controls and greater governmental imposed social justice; then is it is hypocritical to retire (stop working/contributing to societies needs) and fly to distant locals(burning tons of fossil fuels) all they while putting a Bernie sign in your front yard (so you can look at it as you contemplate life or just netflix from your living room), or a sierra club sticker on your Samsonite luggage you will be hauling on your next trip to asia.

If I don't put a Bernie sticker or Sierra Club sticker on my luggage, is it OK to fly then? 

I'd also point out that your argument applies to other things like driving a car, at all.  If you really, really don't want to be a hypocrite, then you should drive exactly never.  And you should never run electricity in your house either (although solar panel people might get a pass).  That's pretty extreme, but I don't think it's any more extreme than saying that a person should never fly anywhere either. 

Some of the people on the very, very, very far left might feel that way.  Most don't.  Putting forth the most extreme version of a belief and then castigating anyone that doesn't meet that standard is the very definition of a straw man argument. 

It would be similar to me saying "Are right wing mustacians hypocrites for accepting Social Security when they hit 65?"  Some people on the right have a problem with SS, but not all of them.  It's the same technique, and it's just as invalid here as it is with the original argument. 

Aelias

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #174 on: March 22, 2017, 10:34:36 AM »
If you are an individual who promotes stricter environmental controls and greater governmental imposed social justice; then is it is hypocritical to retire (stop working/contributing to societies needs) . . .

I think we need to decouple the assumption that "retirement" in the way it's typically discussed on this forum means people stop contributing to society's needs. 

This cannot be said loudly or often enough: the amount of money you make does not quantify your contribution to society!  In many cases, the two are inversely proportional.

Additionally, numerous people of all political stripes indicate that one of the things they want to do in retirement is volunteer and contribute more to their community.  I will say for myself that getting a volunteer / lower paid public interest job would definitely be contributing more to society than my current paid work.

tyort1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #175 on: March 22, 2017, 10:36:42 AM »
I would also like to point out that early retirees do not stop contributing to society - they generally have massive amounts of money that they keep invested in things like stocks.  That money funds the private sector.  So I may not work a job after I retire, but my nest egg continues to work hard to benefit society even when I don't go to work every day. 

hoping2retire35

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #176 on: March 22, 2017, 10:36:46 AM »
Well, this whole thread is a thought experiment and some of the posters above were ignoring the parameters. If on the one hand you will state that you are in favor of greater EPA control of the economy while simultaneously taking a flight to the other side of globe then you are demonstrating cognitive dissonance; aka being a hypocrite.

Make an attempt to justify it or just admit that you have flabby first world habits and are not very sincere when you say you care about the environment. Sure I would like for those things to happen everyone drive electric cars or no/very little car use even happened but I know what that costs in resources and civil liberties to get there, therefore I am unwilling to demonstrate support of such measures; I am consistent.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #177 on: March 22, 2017, 10:38:48 AM »
Saying you are invested in index funds, therefore helping society is bull. Now, if you quit your corporate job to start a business or volunteer or whatever, that is great. Just be mindful of whether you are replacing 40hrs/week/ or amount of work/contribution to society/community, etc.

bacchi

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #178 on: March 22, 2017, 10:51:27 AM »
It would be similar to me saying "Are right wing mustacians hypocrites for accepting Social Security when they hit 65?"  Some people on the right have a problem with SS, but not all of them.  It's the same technique, and it's just as invalid here as it is with the original argument.

Speaking of right wing hypocrisy, right wing Mustachians use 401ks and HSAs and IRAs. Those are Big Government programs, created by the nanny state!!111! It must be tough to be a right wing Mustachian with all of that cognitive dissonance. :(

TPGW

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #179 on: March 22, 2017, 11:07:40 AM »
Quote
If on the one hand you will state that you are in favor of greater EPA control of the economy while simultaneously taking a flight to the other side of globe then you are demonstrating cognitive dissonance

As others have already pointed out, favoring increased EPA activity is not equivalent to demanding that nobody harm the environment, in any way, ever.  One could take long flights but still have an environmental impact far below average by rarely driving or a whole host of other means.  There is no dissonance here. This lifestyle is consistent with the policy position that America should be lowering its environmental impact through government action.

Put another way: nobody is advocating that the EPA eliminate air travel.   

On the other hand, if a mustachian is driving an SUV, living in a giant house, and flying to Paris weekly, sure.  But I'm pretty sure very few on this board live that life.     


tyort1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #180 on: March 22, 2017, 11:18:15 AM »
Saying you are invested in index funds, therefore helping society is bull. Now, if you quit your corporate job to start a business or volunteer or whatever, that is great. Just be mindful of whether you are replacing 40hrs/week/ or amount of work/contribution to society/community, etc.

I think you underestimate how much invested wealth helps society.

Telecaster

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #181 on: March 22, 2017, 02:16:16 PM »
Well, this whole thread is a thought experiment and some of the posters above were ignoring the parameters. If on the one hand you will state that you are in favor of greater EPA control of the economy while simultaneously taking a flight to the other side of globe then you are demonstrating cognitive dissonance; aka being a hypocrite.

Is there some reason why you only make straw man arguments?   

Abe

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #182 on: March 22, 2017, 07:27:47 PM »
Only as much as right-wing Mustachians who eat anything made with corn are. Because big government subsidies, etc.

Like how I did that? Corn...straw? Straw man?



ctuser1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #183 on: May 29, 2019, 09:48:09 AM »
Thanks for the responses so far.  What actually prompted my post was this realization:  a person who ERs is likely to pay fairly high payroll and income taxes for 10–15 years, but will then pay almost zero income or payroll taxes the rest of their life (let's limit the discussion to federal income and payroll taxes, while admitting that most people will pay state/local sales tax and property tax during retirement). 

Public Finance economists have developed an elaborate way of judging tax policy called "optimal income tax theory."  This was developed by James Mirrlees, who won the Nobel prize for this work, and many other scholars. I haven't looked at this stuff for a while, but let me try to summarize. 

The problem:  how to maximize social utility (well-being) through the tax and transfer system while distorting economic decisions as little as possible ("efficient").  People are assumed to have a declining marginal utility for money, such that an extra dollar for Warren Buffet brings him a lot less utility than an extra dollar for a Somali peasant.  People are also assumed to have both different abilities (defined here to mean "ability to earn money in the labor market") and different income levels.  The tax instrument assumed to be available is essentially a wage tax; capital transactions are not part of the earliest models for simplicity.

With these assumptions and a few others, you can, through a model, mathematically define the utility functions of everyone, and how the tax-and-transfer system would impact that utility.  Solving the equation for how to maximize total utility is essentially an optimization problem (hence "optimal" income tax theory).

An interesting thing that comes out of this literature is that it would be great—if you are committed to maximizing utility at all costs—if we knew people's abilities, because if we did, we could just tax them based on ability, not on earned income. A tax on ability would be maximally efficient because it wouldn't lead to any disincentive to work the way that a tax on wages does, in the same way that a head tax is efficient.  But a tax on ability is better than a head tax, because it allows for differentiation in tax burdens that many consider fair, whereas under a head tax everyone pays the same.

People that earn significantly less than their ability implies are called "shirkers" in the literature.  They are seen as shirking their duty to earn money, which can then be taxed and redistributed to people with a higher marginal utility for a dollar.  Shirkers decrease total utility at the expense of less able people.  A Mustachian who retires early is the ultimate shirker under this worldview.  Mustachians are high ability people who drop out of the labor force and drastically reduce their lifetime tax burden, while often drastically increasing their lifetime consumption of public benefits. 

Personally I don't believe optimal income tax theory has much to offer real world policymakers, and I think many of its assumptions are unrealistic or at least incomplete.  It just struck me that Mustachians, shirkers that they are or aspire to be, are the optimal income tax theorists' worst nightmare!  But many prominent economists subscribe to the theory [see here for further reading:  https://eml.berkeley.edu/~saez/piketty-saezNBER12handbook.pdf].  I say vive les shirkers!

Resurrecting an old (but very interesting discussion).

I am not sure you are reading the economic theories with the proper frame of reference. The expression you used: "duty to earn money", I believe, shows where you are thinking incorrectly!!

First: You are talking about "money" as if that is something concrete with real "marginal utility" in itself.
Money is a notional construct. It's simply an abstract promise to give some share of the future economy when you choose to spend it!! It is worthless outside the context of the society that makes that promise. It has been that way since the first caveman used a piece of shiny gold nugget to buy a wild boar carcass. The shiny metal nugget he handed had no "real" value outside the societal context, especially when technology had not yet developed to figure out the teensy weensy bit of industrial uses of Gold that exists today!!

When the value of "money" is derived from society itself, and its future ability to produce economic value, it follows that the said "society" can choose how to allocate that share such as to optimize that future production and economic activity. Tools available to do so include:
1. Redistribution in various forms (a "progressive tax system, "tithe" that is a social norm to the point of being a tax etc.).
2. Inflation - a highly inefficient and regressive tool.

Bottomline: if you are a true libertarian, you would engage no economic activity other than bartering. Anything else derives it's value from society and subject to change based on collective thinking.

Coming back to the "duty" bit - nobody has any "duty". I doubt any peer reviewed economics literature ascribes such loaded meanings. Can you pleas show me?
I would work if the marginal utility of the hours I spend gives me something in return whose marginal utility is higher. If not, as Homo Economicus and a newly minted Mustachian, I won't!!

Other points:
1. Asking for reorganization of how the future value of "promises" handed out already is not same as, nor incompatible with, tax optimization.
2. Redistribution is not stealing - unless you are a true libertarian who relies 100% on bartering and don't depend on society for anything. If you derived value from society, it follows you should pay for the maintenance costs of the said "society". When and if a billionaire complains about his 15% and lower tax rate, ask him exactly how much did he benefit from the social constructs like property rights, police, military etc.
3. Data seems to show that the American left wing politicians are far more fiscally responsible than the right wing. Simply look at the budget deficit numbers from the Republican vs Dem admins and you will see what I mean. Right-wing, starting with Nixon, invented the post-truth politics where we are supposed to focus on what they say, not what they do!!
4. Conserving the environment is not a liberal cause. Conserving is a conservative cause!! The politician with the biggest contribution to conservation in the US was a conservative - Teddy Roosevelt. Of course - we are not talking about the post-truth "conservative"s.

Not only do I not think that the liberal leaning Mustachians are NOT hypocrites, it seems self evident to me that any Mustachian who does not identify with the big-tent "liberal" policies in today's US politics are hypocrites!!

partgypsy

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #184 on: May 29, 2019, 12:20:56 PM »
I'm having cognitive dissonance, that self-reliance and being a hard worker and taking advantage of the economic opportunities of the US is somehow a Republican thing? When did this happen?
I mean it seems pretty common sense, that one can be hard working, self-reliant while AT THE SAME TIME would like the government or society to provide basic safety nets for those who are children, elderly, ill, or otherwise unable help themselves? And I don't care how "self-reliant" you are, if you as an individual gets cancer or some other serious health problem, you are not able to do surgery on yourself or pay out of pocket sans insurance to have your condition treated, unless you want to go back 100 years medical treatment-wise.

My Dad is a veteran, self-made man, businessman, pulled himself up by his bootstraps. Two times had devastating personal business losses but refused to declare bankruptcy (in one case worked 10 years to pay back his debts). He also believes people have the right to join a union, march for their rights, and everyone should have access to affordable healthcare. There is no dichotomy, hypocrisy, unless you think caring for those who need help, means you think everyone is helpless.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 12:24:57 PM by partgypsy »

Kris

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #185 on: May 29, 2019, 01:59:08 PM »
I'm having cognitive dissonance, that self-reliance and being a hard worker and taking advantage of the economic opportunities of the US is somehow a Republican thing? When did this happen?
I mean it seems pretty common sense, that one can be hard working, self-reliant while AT THE SAME TIME would like the government or society to provide basic safety nets for those who are children, elderly, ill, or otherwise unable help themselves?

Exactly so.

I have always been self-reliant, a hard worker, and have taken advantage of the economic opportunities of the US. At the same time, I would very much like the government/society to provide safety nets for the people in my extended family who struggle to help themselves -- almost all of whom are Republicans, by the way.

partgypsy

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #186 on: May 29, 2019, 02:17:00 PM »
I'm having cognitive dissonance, that self-reliance and being a hard worker and taking advantage of the economic opportunities of the US is somehow a Republican thing? When did this happen?
I mean it seems pretty common sense, that one can be hard working, self-reliant while AT THE SAME TIME would like the government or society to provide basic safety nets for those who are children, elderly, ill, or otherwise unable help themselves?

Exactly so.

I have always been self-reliant, a hard worker, and have taken advantage of the economic opportunities of the US. At the same time, I would very much like the government/society to provide safety nets for the people in my extended family who struggle to help themselves -- almost all of whom are Republicans, by the way.

I always thought this was ironic, that states that receive the most government benefits and welfare, are Red states. 

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 02:20:25 PM by partgypsy »

tyort1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #187 on: May 29, 2019, 02:51:42 PM »
I do think that Mustacians are able to recognize that our economic system is just that, a system.  A system that we can learn about and optimize our efforts to be successful within. I think that's a intelligence thing, not a 'left' or 'right' thing.

On the other hand, I think that the left is much more likely to see the system as an actual system, and recognize that any system is imperfect and can be improved upon.  Hence the desire for more re-distribution and being OK with programs that promote the common good.  So the overlap I see with MMM is not political.  The overlap is the ability to think in terms of systems and within terms of optimizing systems. 

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #188 on: May 29, 2019, 03:10:11 PM »
The idea of taxing someone based on their ability rather than their output seems coercive.  Just because I'm making big money working 60hr weeks(as an example) doesn't mean I should be taxed at that level my whole life, or be expected to produce at that level my whole life.

Adam Zapple

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #189 on: May 30, 2019, 04:18:44 AM »
I'm having cognitive dissonance, that self-reliance and being a hard worker and taking advantage of the economic opportunities of the US is somehow a Republican thing? When did this happen?
I mean it seems pretty common sense, that one can be hard working, self-reliant while AT THE SAME TIME would like the government or society to provide basic safety nets for those who are children, elderly, ill, or otherwise unable help themselves?

Exactly so.

I have always been self-reliant, a hard worker, and have taken advantage of the economic opportunities of the US. At the same time, I would very much like the government/society to provide safety nets for the people in my extended family who struggle to help themselves -- almost all of whom are Republicans, by the way.

I always thought this was ironic, that states that receive the most government benefits and welfare, are Red states. 

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/

I always want to see a breakdown of voting by individuals in these states.  Like how do those who received benefits vote vs those who don't.

I think the biggest hypocrisy within the whole MMM philosophy is that you can claim to be an environmentalist while simultaneously investing in large corporations which are the biggest polluters on the planet.

ctuser1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #190 on: May 30, 2019, 05:37:43 AM »
I always want to see a breakdown of voting by individuals in these states.  Like how do those who received benefits vote vs those who don't.

Isn't that a red herring?

For the purpose of argument, let's assume that the welfare recipient's vote "liberal". This is likely true for states like Alabama where that population is mostly "minority", but likely not true for Appalachia regions - i.e. a mixed result if any. It's based on anecdotes, I have no data on this and would stand corrected if anyone has any better data.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume 100% of the welfare recipients in these "republican states" vote democrat.

Do you think that the administration - mostly right wing - and the majority population in these states - again mostly right wing - for the past few decades, and their Jim Crow policies have some blame for failing to develop their economy over the decades such that they have to depend on handouts from the "northern" states?

Rhetorical question - do "state rights" apply in reverse? Are there any "state responsibilities" also? Or are these concepts and arguments useful only where they are convenient?

Note: I do NOT think this post-truth behavior is even a republican or conservative thing. Lincoln (and indeed any other republican right up to the middle of 20th century) would likely have considered Nixon's cynical "southern strategy" a blasphemy. I'm not sure he would also have approved Reagan's "welfare queen" scare - the subject of which, by the way, was a white woman made to look black in the pictures. Reagan used this to dog-whistle "welfare dependent blacks are coming to steal your welfare money" without saying it in so many words.

I think the biggest hypocrisy within the whole MMM philosophy is that you can claim to be an environmentalist while simultaneously investing in large corporations which are the biggest polluters on the planet.

This is a good point to ponder.
Do you know of any good environment friendly way to invest?

I just joined the forum (mostly for reading) a few days ago and can stake no "ownership" of it's philosophy or message. But I doubt anyone is making any absolute claims about zero carbon footprint. Only the Sith deal in absolutes!!

the_gastropod

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #191 on: May 30, 2019, 05:47:12 AM »
I think the biggest hypocrisy within the whole MMM philosophy is that you can claim to be an environmentalist while simultaneously investing in large corporations which are the biggest polluters on the planet.

While this is obviously fair game, I think the fascination with the ~100 corporations responsible for pollution thing is a bit overstated. These companies (mostly oil/gas companies) aren’t just polluting for the fun of it. They’re selling gasoline to people, who burn it, turning it into CO2 and a few other nasty pollutants.

One can make a far greater environmental impact by focusing on their consumption than worrying too much about their handful of shares in oil companies they have via an index fund. That’s not to say you can’t do both, but I’m not sure the latter warrants the time necessary to rid yourself of all polluters.

DadJokes

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #192 on: May 30, 2019, 06:01:34 AM »
Reviving a two-year-old post as your first post on the forum is peculiar.

But I'm mostly just posting to follow.

ctuser1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #193 on: May 30, 2019, 06:22:25 AM »
Reviving a two-year-old post as your first post on the forum is peculiar.

Apologies if it broke any forum rules. I was just reading up on the best of mmm thread (fascinating read) and found this specific thread referenced from one of the quotes quite captivating.
I'd request the moderators to take any corrective actions necessary if it broke any forum rules.

In the way of introducing (since the topic of "first post" came about) - I've been a semi-silent reader of Bogleheads for many years, from before the Great Recession, and follow the LBYM to the core. You guys seem to take it to whole another level though. I see that I waste a lot after stumbling across this forum a few months ago. I've got the investment end covered, but hoping to learn more on the mustachian end of the things and get better.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 06:24:11 AM by ctuser1 »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #194 on: May 30, 2019, 06:56:11 AM »
I think the biggest hypocrisy within the whole MMM philosophy is that you can claim to be an environmentalist while simultaneously investing in large corporations which are the biggest polluters on the planet.

While this is obviously fair game, I think the fascination with the ~100 corporations responsible for pollution thing is a bit overstated. These companies (mostly oil/gas companies) aren’t just polluting for the fun of it. They’re selling gasoline to people, who burn it, turning it into CO2 and a few other nasty pollutants.

One can make a far greater environmental impact by focusing on their consumption than worrying too much about their handful of shares in oil companies they have via an index fund. That’s not to say you can’t do both, but I’m not sure the latter warrants the time necessary to rid yourself of all polluters.

Those 100 companies are leveraging their economies of scale to stay on top, and they're certainly not going out of their way to track or monitor their environmental impact to the same degree.  Survivor's dilemma exists in these companies, and an executive chasing a quarterly bonus doesn't want personal obstacles that might yield for the community.

Poor red states are interesting, and maybe they are strongly libertarian or anti-tax, which could explain part of it.  Or the more moral conservative ideas might be the appeal.  I've been listening to Sowell's book "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" and it's been a fascinating read; I had no idea how segregated the cultures are in the US between south and north.  (He outlines that much of the tragedy of black emancipation is actually rooted in poor cultural influence from Southern whites, rather than being rooted specifically in racism).

Buffalo Chip

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #195 on: May 30, 2019, 02:22:34 PM »
Interesting thread. In response to the OPs question, we’re all hypocrites in some way. Saul Alinsky became famous using the tactic of forcing the opposition to live up to their own book of rules/conduct. None of us live up to our personal code at all times and all circumstances. We should try of course, but expecting perfection out of people is a sure path to disappointment.

As to what is truly ”Mustachian” about these political issues, I guess I’m looking for the Mustachian traits of knowing the rules. exacting attention to detail, the reliance on mathematical facts, and the willingness to see things as they are rather than what we wish them to be.

The problem with politics, at least at the average persons level, is that the ROI stinks on ice. And mathematically, you can’t make a plausible argument that participating in politics makes any sense. I get that there is a quasi religious view that we MUST vote, we MUST participate because our voice matters! Or something like that. But when you analyze it from the perspective of what X output do I receive for my Y input of time and resources, you find that X output is paltry to nonexistent.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #196 on: May 30, 2019, 03:17:50 PM »
Interesting thread. In response to the OPs question, we’re all hypocrites in some way. Saul Alinsky became famous using the tactic of forcing the opposition to live up to their own book of rules/conduct. None of us live up to our personal code at all times and all circumstances. We should try of course, but expecting perfection out of people is a sure path to disappointment.

As to what is truly ”Mustachian” about these political issues, I guess I’m looking for the Mustachian traits of knowing the rules. exacting attention to detail, the reliance on mathematical facts, and the willingness to see things as they are rather than what we wish them to be.

The problem with politics, at least at the average persons level, is that the ROI stinks on ice. And mathematically, you can’t make a plausible argument that participating in politics makes any sense. I get that there is a quasi religious view that we MUST vote, we MUST participate because our voice matters! Or something like that. But when you analyze it from the perspective of what X output do I receive for my Y input of time and resources, you find that X output is paltry to nonexistent.
Reliance on mathematical facts doesn't tell you how to coexist morally across time.  Politics are usually about compromises, so the "battle", so to speak, will never end.

ctuser1

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #197 on: May 30, 2019, 05:28:52 PM »
Interesting thread. In response to the OPs question, we’re all hypocrites in some way.

This is more true than most people realize. In fact, with certain very defensible assumptions - this is a mathematical truth!!

If we assume:
1. Ideology = a "Formal System", as per Modern Algebra and Computer Science.
2. Ideology is defined by a set of assumptions (axioms as per CS/Modern Algebra) and rules of inferences.

Then - per Godel's Incompleteness theorem (super simplified) - that system is always incomplete, in that it can never solve all questions/problems that cn be posed within it!!

The theorem sounds complicated, but it's proof is so simple it was a part of a 2XX math course I took in undergrad. The proof usually involves using a mathematical technique known as diagonalization.

Let this sync in a bit!! No ideology, assuming it is codified as a set of assumptions and rules that are consistent etc.etc, can ever answer all problems you can throw at it!!

I found this mathematical theorem to be one of the most profound ever I've encountered!!

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #198 on: May 30, 2019, 05:43:01 PM »
" If you derived value from society, it follows you should pay for the maintenance costs of the said "society". "

I agree with the above, but it doesn't follow that progressive taxation is necessarily required for this. Imagine a society costs $100 to run and there are 10 people. One way to distribute the maintenance costs is just to make everyone pay $10. Now this would never work in the real world because one person earns $50 and the others earn $3 so can't afford the $10 outlay. But my point is that it is quite possible to argue that maintenance costs ought not to be progressively levied. We don't make the winning team or winning athlete pay a greater entrance fee or stadium fee than the losers, do we?

If a successful person grew up in the same school district and same neighbourhood as an unsuccessful person why should the former pay more just because she grabbed the opportunity and the latter didn't?

partgypsy

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Re: Are left-wing Mustachians hypocrites?
« Reply #199 on: May 30, 2019, 06:22:11 PM »
Interesting thread. In response to the OPs question, we’re all hypocrites in some way. Saul Alinsky became famous using the tactic of forcing the opposition to live up to their own book of rules/conduct. None of us live up to our personal code at all times and all circumstances. We should try of course, but expecting perfection out of people is a sure path to disappointment.

As to what is truly ”Mustachian” about these political issues, I guess I’m looking for the Mustachian traits of knowing the rules. exacting attention to detail, the reliance on mathematical facts, and the willingness to see things as they are rather than what we wish them to be.

The problem with politics, at least at the average persons level, is that the ROI stinks on ice. And mathematically, you can’t make a plausible argument that participating in politics makes any sense. I get that there is a quasi religious view that we MUST vote, we MUST participate because our voice matters! Or something like that. But when you analyze it from the perspective of what X output do I receive for my Y input of time and resources, you find that X output is paltry to nonexistent.
That's not necessarily true, both socially and politically, on the local level. Plus how much time does it take to read up on local candidates and vote every 2 years? I'm not thinking it's that big of an investment compared to being able to participate in a democracy. There are some interests who are very invested in the majority of Americans tuning out and being apathetic. Think about that.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 06:24:32 PM by partgypsy »