Author Topic: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge  (Read 6744 times)

PDXTabs

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Tennessee is about to become the first U.S. state to make it a felony to camp on local public property such as parks - AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge

The irony being that if you don't have anywhere to sleep the state will give you a place to sleep and provide meals and health care while they are at it.

I don't know what to write about this country anymore.

LennStar

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2022, 02:34:17 AM »
There is a war by the Rich against the Poor, and the Rich is winning.

Warren Buffet knows about long term trends. Should have listened to him.

TempusFugit

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2022, 12:52:11 PM »
It probably goes too far, but on the other hand one need only look to what has happened in other places where the government has allowed the tent city problem to become a crisis in order to understand why people may support these kinds of laws.

First, lets clarify that ‘homeless’ is a bit of an anodyne term for what is really more about mental illness and or drug abuse.  There are exceptions, to be sure, but the vast vast majority of what we call homeless people are really drug addicted crazy people.   Homeless encampments are really open air drug dens. 

The dismantling of mental hospitals undertaken with such gusto in the latter part of the 20th century has left us with no place to put people who are dangers to themselves and others.  We can’t throw away the rights of all the regular folks to safely walk the streets of their cities just to accommodate the crazies. There aren’t any simple answers but we need to talk honestly about what it really is rather than perpetuating this myth of the ‘down on their luck’ homeless. 

I’m sure there are plenty of stories about the single mom who lost her job and had to leave an abusive spouse, etc, etc.  Those people are not a significant percentage of what we’re talking about.  Pretending that these cases of victims of circumstance, ‘there but for the grace of God’ types are representative of the homeless population is just doublespeak. 

Re-open the mental hospitals and re-introduce involuntary commitment.  It sounds cruel, but how is that not better for someone who is unable to care for themselves? It’s better for them and its better for society.

seattlecyclone

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2022, 02:11:35 PM »
First, lets clarify that ‘homeless’ is a bit of an anodyne term for what is really more about mental illness and or drug abuse.  There are exceptions, to be sure, but the vast vast majority of what we call homeless people are really drug addicted crazy people.   Homeless encampments are really open air drug dens. 

This is not even remotely true. The data shows that homelessness is predominantly a housing affordability problem. The places with the highest rates of homelessness are also the places with the highest rents. This is no coincidence. If what we knew as homelessness was really just about mental illness and addiction, we'd see more uniform rates of homelessness across the nation, because addiction and mental illness know no geographic boundaries. The difference of course is that in places where housing is cheaper it's easier for people suffering from a wide variety of problems to find homes despite whatever else may be going on in their lives.

Now, I'm not saying that addiction and mental illness are uncommon among the homeless population; they are not. However it's simply false to say that people who don't suffer from these things are a small minority amongst the homeless population. The thing homeless people all have in common is not that they're mentally ill or addicted to drugs, it's that they don't have enough money to afford rent in their location. Mental conditions are just one of many, many common reasons why this can happen to a person.

TempusFugit

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2022, 02:51:00 PM »
I believe it is very much true.  Cost of housing is not the main driver of “homelessness.” That’s the line that progressives have been peddling for decades.  Perhaps it is well intentioned but it has been destructive to our cities.

Michael Shellenberger Has been researching and writing about homelessness for years.  His substack is here
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/archive?sort=new

I think it requires willful blindness to not recognize the role of mental illness and even more importantly drug addiction as the primary drivers of homelessness. I am not advocating that we should ignore the issue and just hide the people but rather that we cannot begin to solve the problem so long as we refuse to accept what the root causes are. 


seattlecyclone

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2022, 05:50:22 PM »
The root cause is that housing is more expensive than a lot of people can afford. Can mental illness or addiction be a barrier to earning enough money to afford rent? Sure, absolutely! Should there be more state-funded treatment for people suffering from these things, and should that treatment be mandatory in more cases where a person may not be in a position to recognize they have a problem? I'd say yes to both. All that said, I think you're deluding yourself if you expect homelessness to mostly disappear if we implemented these reforms.

fuzzy math

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2022, 06:05:00 PM »
First, lets clarify that ‘homeless’ is a bit of an anodyne term for what is really more about mental illness and or drug abuse.  There are exceptions, to be sure, but the vast vast majority of what we call homeless people are really drug addicted crazy people.   Homeless encampments are really open air drug dens. 

This is not even remotely true. The data shows that homelessness is predominantly a housing affordability problem. The places with the highest rates of homelessness are also the places with the highest rents. This is no coincidence. If what we knew as homelessness was really just about mental illness and addiction, we'd see more uniform rates of homelessness across the nation, because addiction and mental illness know no geographic boundaries. The difference of course is that in places where housing is cheaper it's easier for people suffering from a wide variety of problems to find homes despite whatever else may be going on in their lives.

Now, I'm not saying that addiction and mental illness are uncommon among the homeless population; they are not. However it's simply false to say that people who don't suffer from these things are a small minority amongst the homeless population. The thing homeless people all have in common is not that they're mentally ill or addicted to drugs, it's that they don't have enough money to afford rent in their location. Mental conditions are just one of many, many common reasons why this can happen to a person.

Correlation is not causation.

1) The top counties all have temperate weather. Its much easier to be homeless in a location where you don't have to worry about freezing or dying of heat stroke

2) People ARE LITERALLY PUT ON A BUS to clear unwanted homeless from cities https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvg7ba/instead-of-helping-homeless-people-cities-are-bussing-them-out-of-town

3) Those top receiving cities develop more in depth programs for homeless people, and thus it becomes a destination for the homeless

Sibley

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2022, 07:24:09 PM »
Based on my entirely nonscientific survey of selected homeless people in Chicago prior to Covid, there's both. You have people who lose their jobs for whatever reason, then lose their housing and end up on the streets. Those people don't typically stay on the streets long term though. They're able to get their lives back on track so they're not homeless. Those people need affordable housing and a helping hand to get over the hump.

The people who are on the streets long term or repeated are generally mentally ill, and thus can't get their lives together. Those people need long term mental health treatment and stability, so that they either are able to get their lives on track and keep it that way, or so that people who's illness can't be adequately treated aren't on the street.

Shame on Tennessee, shame on all the other states and cities who could be really making a positive difference but instead are choosing to be assholes.

seattlecyclone

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2022, 07:59:13 PM »
Correlation is not causation.

1) The top counties all have temperate weather. Its much easier to be homeless in a location where you don't have to worry about freezing or dying of heat stroke



Ah, yes. New York City and Washington DC and Boston are such popular destinations for beach vacations in February. I see your point. Totally understandable that people would choose to be homeless there at a rate something like 8x higher than in frigid Miami.

Quote
2) People ARE LITERALLY PUT ON A BUS to clear unwanted homeless from cities https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvg7ba/instead-of-helping-homeless-people-cities-are-bussing-them-out-of-town

That article talks about programs where cities with high rates of homelessness (San Francisco, New York, Seattle, and Portland are mentioned) have programs to send people out of town if they say they have some family they can stay with there. If low-homelessness cities are randomly sending people to high-homelessness cities when they have no roots there, that's despicable. If that is the case this article shows the buses run both ways at least.

Quote
3) Those top receiving cities develop more in depth programs for homeless people, and thus it becomes a destination for the homeless

I can tell you as a resident of one of these high-homelessness cities that your odds of receiving real help here aren't great. We have thousands of people sleeping in tents, none of whom have any real hope of finding long-term housing anytime soon. Whatever our so-called "in depth programs" entail, they aren't nearly up to the task.

PDXTabs

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2022, 01:37:14 AM »
It probably goes too far, but on the other hand one need only look to what has happened in other places where the government has allowed the tent city problem to become a crisis in order to understand why people may support these kinds of laws.

Why should the punishment for camping on public property be a felony conviction and up to six years housed in a prison? You don't have a house, so you get to go to the big house? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to house more people. I'm not sure it needs to be in prison.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 01:39:31 AM by PDXTabs »

LennStar

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2022, 01:59:39 AM »
Prison is also way more expensive.

I believe it is very much true.  Cost of housing is not the main driver of “homelessness.” That’s the line that progressives have been peddling for decades.  Perhaps it is well intentioned but it has been destructive to our cities.

Michael Shellenberger Has been researching and writing about homelessness for years.  His substack is here
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/archive?sort=new

I think it requires willful blindness to not recognize the role of mental illness and even more importantly drug addiction as the primary drivers of homelessness. I am not advocating that we should ignore the issue and just hide the people but rather that we cannot begin to solve the problem so long as we refuse to accept what the root causes are.

Causation and causality.

Homelessness is the number 1 factor for drug abuse and mental illness.

No, I have no proof, because I don't know the numbers out of my head, it's only in every study I read about. It may not be number 1, maybe "only" number 3.
But fact is that homelessness is in the overwhelming majority caused by people not able to afford, and since they have no home, they cannot start to afford. Bank account without adress? Tough luck. Looking good to get a job when you slept in a tent for weeks? lol. And so on.
There is nothing worse for a whole range of problems than being without a home. In countries where this is taken seriously, the rate of homeless people is at least 10 times lower. Are only Americans drug addicted lunatics?


----

An aside about lunatics: I read yesterday it's okay in Texas to have 20 guns, but having more than 5 dildos is a felony.
Somehow that feels the same sort of doing it the wrong way as homelessness.

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2022, 05:10:44 AM »
It probably goes too far, but on the other hand one need only look to what has happened in other places where the government has allowed the tent city problem to become a crisis in order to understand why people may support these kinds of laws.

Why should the punishment for camping on public property be a felony conviction and up to six years housed in a prison? You don't have a house, so you get to go to the big house? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to house more people. I'm not sure it needs to be in prison.

It's an attempt by power hungry officials to strip voting rights from poor people and any activists who might engage in civil disobedience., because gerrymandering just isn't enough sometimes. I wonder if this also might be part of a push to keep prison beds full so they don't lose funding/body count for redistricting purposes.

You guys probably know this already, but prisoners not only can't vote, but also get counted in the district of the prison, not where they lived before. This is great for Republicans as many prisons are in mostly white rural districts and Prisoners are typically from ethnically diverse liberal cities. There is also a huge industry around prisons and there are those who benefit from more people being locked up, as unethical as that sounds.

Shane

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2022, 05:52:12 AM »
It's possible for more than one thing to be true at the same time. Mental illness is a major driver of homelessness and, also, mentally ill people who happen to live in HCOL areas struggle more than healthy people to pay their rent and make ends meet, so end up homeless at higher rates. It's also true that mentally-ill, homeless people often migrate from rural areas into cities, because that's where services are located. Want to get free pizza served by the Hare Krishnas in the park on Saturday afternoons? Want free soup served outside the Methodist Church on Wednesday evenings? Want your daily methadone fix? Homeless people generally have to be in cities to receive those types of services. Since they generally don't have cars and it would be too far to walk back and forth, many end up stuck in cities, even if they would actually prefer to go back home to the small town or countryside, where they're 'from'.

The PBS documentary The Definition of Insanity was pretty good. It highlights a Dade County program trying to divert mentally ill people from the criminal justice system.

fuzzy math

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2022, 08:26:21 AM »
Correlation is not causation.

1) The top counties all have temperate weather. Its much easier to be homeless in a location where you don't have to worry about freezing or dying of heat stroke


Ah, yes. New York CITY and Washington DC and Boston CITY are such popular destinations for beach vacations in February. I see your point. Totally understandable that people would choose to be homeless there at a rate something like 8x higher than in frigid Miami.


Its OK that you completely misread that.

Also, homeless people do find enough money to buy their own bus tickets. And a lot of them choose to go to cities where being homeless isn't illegal. Again, note the top cities and counties have laws allowing tents. New York doesn't have a tent issue because they have enough infrastructure that a vast majority of their people get sheltered at night. In Miami, Atlanta etc its illegal to live in a tent.

I actually used to volunteer making food for the homeless in my smaller city and a huge portion of the long term homeless (not short term, fleeing abuse etc) are addicted to drugs or have severe mental health issues. The shelter had a bunch of security processes in place about who was allowed there each night. The least stable people were frequently denied and either didn't want to be told to go there or stopped bothering trying to go there. The most unstable you cant even offer a plate of food to in the park.  These are the people for whom affordable housing will have very little affect in improving their lives.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-10-07/homeless-population-mental-illness-disability

The Times, however, found that about 67% had either a mental illness or a substance abuse disorder. Individually, substance abuse affects 46% of those living on the streets — more than three times the rate previously reported — and mental illness, including post-traumatic stress disorder, affects 51% of those living on the streets, according to the analysis.


Also why doesn't Hawaii top the list when they have the highest housing COL in the country? Why does Baltimore have higher rates than Chicago when its more expensive to live in Chicago? Why is St Louis, with one of the cheapest costs of housing of any large city in the country, above ANY city on this list?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 09:05:54 AM by fuzzy math »

TempusFugit

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2022, 09:48:11 AM »
Whichever side you come down on I think we all agree that it is a huge and growing problem.  The fact is that spending to address this issue has risen dramatically in the areas where the problem is only getting worse and worse, so perhaps the things that are being done are not helping and are in fact exacerbating the issue. 
Tolerance of open drug use seems to be a common theme.  I can see how a police officer may not feel very motivated to risk being stabbed by some meth head just to arrest them and see them released again within hours. 
I can also believe without much strain that government programs quickly develop into little fiefdoms that people want to protect and to grow.  The interests of the bureaucracy very soon deviate from the interests of the supposed constituents.

Psychstache

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2022, 10:08:01 AM »
Whichever side you come down on I think we all agree that it is a huge and growing problem.  The fact is that spending to address this issue has risen dramatically in the areas where the problem is only getting worse and worse, so perhaps the things that are being done are not helping and are in fact exacerbating the issue. 
Tolerance of open drug use seems to be a common theme.  I can see how a police officer may not feel very motivated to risk being stabbed by some meth head just to arrest them and see them released again within hours. 
I can also believe without much strain that government programs quickly develop into little fiefdoms that people want to protect and to grow.  The interests of the bureaucracy very soon deviate from the interests of the supposed constituents.
Seems that way to whom? You make a lot claims with little to no evidence to support them.

TempusFugit

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Kris

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2022, 10:56:58 AM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

bacchi

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2022, 11:03:02 AM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

PDXTabs

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2022, 11:23:44 AM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

IDK, as a Portland liberal watching progressives ruin my city I kind of want to read it. But I'm not sure what that has to do with criminalizing homelessness.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 11:25:23 AM by PDXTabs »

seattlecyclone

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2022, 11:25:50 AM »
Correlation is not causation.

1) The top counties all have temperate weather. Its much easier to be homeless in a location where you don't have to worry about freezing or dying of heat stroke


Ah, yes. New York CITY and Washington DC and Boston CITY are such popular destinations for beach vacations in February. I see your point. Totally understandable that people would choose to be homeless there at a rate something like 8x higher than in frigid Miami.


Its OK that you completely misread that.

What are you getting at? The distinction between cities and counties in that graphic is rather arbitrary. Maybe that's just what level of government happens to organize the homeless count in that area? Anyway, NYC is five counties put together, DC is typically treated as a county equivalent for statistical purposes, and Boston contains 85% of the population of its county so even if the other municipalities have zero homeless people that county would still have a rate of around 7.5 per thousand. That's seven very non-temperate counties toward the very top of the list. I'm still not seeing evidence that weather has much of anything to do with it.

Quote
Also, homeless people do find enough money to buy their own bus tickets. And a lot of them choose to go to cities where being homeless isn't illegal. Again, note the top cities and counties have laws allowing tents. New York doesn't have a tent issue because they have enough infrastructure that a vast majority of their people get sheltered at night. In Miami, Atlanta etc its illegal to live in a tent.

Where exactly do you think tent encampments are legal? I can tell you that we have not repealed our anti-camping ordinances in Seattle. There is precedent from the 9th Circuit that cities are not to prosecute people for sleeping outside if there is insufficient indoor shelter, but that doesn't stop the cops from conducting "sweeps" where they go through and throw away everyone's tents and other possessions at whichever encampments have gotten the most complaints from neighbors recently.

Quote
I actually used to volunteer making food for the homeless in my smaller city and a huge portion of the long term homeless (not short term, fleeing abuse etc) are addicted to drugs or have severe mental health issues. The shelter had a bunch of security processes in place about who was allowed there each night. The least stable people were frequently denied and either didn't want to be told to go there or stopped bothering trying to go there. The most unstable you cant even offer a plate of food to in the park.  These are the people for whom affordable housing will have very little affect in improving their lives.

Have you heard of a concept called "supportive housing"? The idea is you don't just hand someone keys to an apartment and wish them luck. That obviously wouldn't work. Instead you provide on-site support to help people with their issues. Turns out that people are often in a lot better head space to work on their underlying problems when they have a roof over their head and food in their belly.

Quote
Also why doesn't Hawaii top the list when they have the highest housing COL in the country?

I have no idea why Hawaii isn't listed on this particular graphic. Their government estimate is that about 15,000 people are homeless in the state, which is roughly 10 per 1,000 population.

Quote
Why does Baltimore have higher rates than Chicago when its more expensive to live in Chicago? Why is St Louis, with one of the cheapest costs of housing of any large city in the country, above ANY city on this list?

I don't know. The correlation between rent and homeless rate isn't perfect, but it is strong. There are clearly other reasons why certain areas differ from the trend line in one way or another, and they should be studied better.

TempusFugit

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2022, 12:47:51 PM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

I can understand that. Similarly, I don’t trust any research paper coming from a Berkeley California university.  I kind of think progressives are ruining cities, but I haven’t read his book.   

TempusFugit

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2022, 12:57:09 PM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

Here’s another book that you might find less suspicious.  I haven’t read it, so I don’t know how much weight he gives to the various factors, but he evidently doesn’t buy the argument that it is primarily cost of housing.

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674405967

“ America’s foremost analyst of social problems. Jencks examines the standard explanations and finds that the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill, the invention of crack cocaine, rising joblessness among men, declining marriage rates, cuts in welfare benefits, and the destruction of skid row have all played a role. Changes in the housing market have had less impact than many claim, however, and real federal housing subsidies actually doubled during the 1980s.”


Christopher Jencks is John D. MacArthur Professor of Sociology and Urban Affairs at Northwestern University.

seattlecyclone

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2022, 07:15:46 PM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

Here’s another book that you might find less suspicious.  I haven’t read it, so I don’t know how much weight he gives to the various factors, but he evidently doesn’t buy the argument that it is primarily cost of housing.

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674405967

“ America’s foremost analyst of social problems. Jencks examines the standard explanations and finds that the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill, the invention of crack cocaine, rising joblessness among men, declining marriage rates, cuts in welfare benefits, and the destruction of skid row have all played a role. Changes in the housing market have had less impact than many claim, however, and real federal housing subsidies actually doubled during the 1980s.”


Christopher Jencks is John D. MacArthur Professor of Sociology and Urban Affairs at Northwestern University.

That book is 27 years old. House prices have gone up more than a little bit since the Clinton administration.

ixtap

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2022, 08:01:39 PM »
This is very Victorian. Next we will have make work houses...

Just Joe

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2022, 08:55:50 PM »
Why should the punishment for camping on public property be a felony conviction and up to six years housed in a prison? You don't have a house, so you get to go to the big house? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to house more people. I'm not sure it needs to be in prison.

But those for profit prisons need the business! Doesn't TN have for profit prisons?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 09:05:39 PM by Just Joe »

fuzzy math

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2022, 09:19:36 AM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

Are people though?
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-population-decline-us-census-data-17203868.php

shureShote

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2022, 09:39:46 AM »

Here’s another book that you might find less suspicious.  I haven’t read it, so I don’t know how much weight he gives to the various factors, but he evidently doesn’t buy the argument that it is primarily cost of housing.

Just wanted to give you a thumbs up for your posts here. You are trying to engage with some of the folks here who are what they claim to despise.


Homelessness is surely yet another very difficult issue to work through. Putting laws on the books that tap dance around the issue and provide a way to backdoor some sweeps of symptoms feels wrong. But the US is pretty weak these days, so might not be surprising.

bacchi

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2022, 10:03:33 AM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

Are people though?
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-population-decline-us-census-data-17203868.php

Now try Seattle or Portland or Austin or Denver.

Morning Glory

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2022, 10:16:12 AM »
Why should the punishment for camping on public property be a felony conviction and up to six years housed in a prison? You don't have a house, so you get to go to the big house? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to house more people. I'm not sure it needs to be in prison.

But those for profit prisons need the business! Doesn't TN have for profit prisons?

I thought those were abolished but that might have just been at the federal level. Even state run ones have a lot of privatization for things like foodservice and communications though, so people are profiting at the expense of those less fortunate. Then there are small towns who are economically dependent on prisons and tend to vote republican.  Lots of perverse incentives. Yuck.

fuzzy math

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2022, 10:27:52 AM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

Are people though?
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-population-decline-us-census-data-17203868.php

Now try Seattle or Portland or Austin or Denver.

LOLZ u still wrong

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/while-seattles-population-declined-another-king-county-city-saw-fastest-growth-in-wa/

Seattle’s drop in population was relatively small. Many of our “peer” cities had even larger declines, including Portland, Denver,Boston and Washington, D.C. And San Francisco was in a league of its own, losing an astonishing 6.4% of its population (a decline of close to 50,000 people). New York had the biggest numeric loss at 305,000.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 10:29:59 AM by fuzzy math »

waltworks

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2022, 10:28:45 AM »
I've worked at homeless shelters (in Boulder) and also run a food pantry which serves a lot of the same population (in Utah).

Here's the thing, everyone is right (and wrong).

Many/most chronic homeless are indeed addicts and/or mentally ill. You can have a long debate about the direction of causation, but that's the reality. There are a few single moms down on their luck and such, but for the folks who have some ability to function, it's not super hard to leverage the resources to get life back on track. These people are typically only homeless for a little while.

Punitive policies typically aren't very effective.

Providing more resources typically isn't very effective either.

People (even very liberal people) are really not big fans of homeless encampments if they actually experience them on a daily basis/live near them. They are dangerous, dirty, and disruptive to the lives of anyone living in proximity. And cheaper housing is not going to help any of them, really. Cheaper housing will help the folks living 10 to an apartment with the adults working 2 low end jobs, which is a good thing. But those folks don't end up homeless.

So there's no quick and painless solution, no matter how much someone on the right or the left claims there is.

My personal opinion is that harm mitigation (keep encampments in areas where they're not too disruptive to the general public, help out those who are able/willing to seek help, etc) is the only really useful strategy in the short term. For violent/dangerous folks, prison is probably the only real option.

In the long term, we should just stop being cheap and fund social services (early childhood education/preschool, national healthcare system of some kind, etc) that will allow more people to realize their potential and not end up homeless in the first place. But that will take 20 years to have a meaningful effect, so we probably won't do it, because, like I said, we're cheapskates as a society.

-W


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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2022, 10:38:18 AM »
I've worked at homeless shelters (in Boulder) and also run a food pantry which serves a lot of the same population (in Utah).

Here's the thing, everyone is right (and wrong).

Many/most chronic homeless are indeed addicts and/or mentally ill. You can have a long debate about the direction of causation, but that's the reality. There are a few single moms down on their luck and such, but for the folks who have some ability to function, it's not super hard to leverage the resources to get life back on track. These people are typically only homeless for a little while.

Punitive policies typically aren't very effective.

Providing more resources typically isn't very effective either.

People (even very liberal people) are really not big fans of homeless encampments if they actually experience them on a daily basis/live near them. They are dangerous, dirty, and disruptive to the lives of anyone living in proximity. And cheaper housing is not going to help any of them, really. Cheaper housing will help the folks living 10 to an apartment with the adults working 2 low end jobs, which is a good thing. But those folks don't end up homeless.

So there's no quick and painless solution, no matter how much someone on the right or the left claims there is.

My personal opinion is that harm mitigation (keep encampments in areas where they're not too disruptive to the general public, help out those who are able/willing to seek help, etc) is the only really useful strategy in the short term. For violent/dangerous folks, prison is probably the only real option.

In the long term, we should just stop being cheap and fund social services (early childhood education/preschool, national healthcare system of some kind, etc) that will allow more people to realize their potential and not end up homeless in the first place. But that will take 20 years to have a meaningful effect, so we probably won't do it, because, like I said, we're cheapskates as a society.

-W

Well said.

stoaX

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2022, 10:43:48 AM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

Here’s another book that you might find less suspicious.  I haven’t read it, so I don’t know how much weight he gives to the various factors, but he evidently doesn’t buy the argument that it is primarily cost of housing.

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674405967

“ America’s foremost analyst of social problems. Jencks examines the standard explanations and finds that the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill, the invention of crack cocaine, rising joblessness among men, declining marriage rates, cuts in welfare benefits, and the destruction of skid row have all played a role. Changes in the housing market have had less impact than many claim, however, and real federal housing subsidies actually doubled during the 1980s.”


Christopher Jencks is John D. MacArthur Professor of Sociology and Urban Affairs at Northwestern University.

I would add that Sam Quinones's book "The Least Among Us" is quite insightful and quite readable. As a real, old school journalist it's not readily apparent where he stands politically. If I had to guess, I would say centrist Democrat.

TempusFugit

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2022, 10:52:20 AM »
Good post @waltworks.   

I don’t know if there is any good survey of the homeless to put ballpark percentages on the categories and perhaps it differs from place to place, but I think it would be instructive for policymakers. 

As you note, and consistent with what I’ve heard in podcasts, etc, the ‘normal’ people who may have a brief time of homelessness are generally able to take advantage of the various programs and resources and are able to transition back into normal housing fairly quickly, as we would hope. 

The drug addicted group and the mentally ill groups (with lots of overlap, I’m sure) are much harder to del with, as many of them have families that *could* have provided support but have given up due to the inherent problems dealing with drug addicts and mentally ill persons. Even ‘giving’ people in these categories free housing is all but sure to fail as they will be as incorrigible in state housing as they have proven to be with their families.

As to longer term programs or policies, I’m just not sure that there is any realistic solution for having some small percentage of people who simply cannot operate as independent agents in society.  I don’t think this is a problem that can be solved with more pre-K.  We can’t fix everything. We have to contain and mitigate damage as best we can. People should not have to walk over used drug needles and human feces or be accosted by deranged meth heads just to get to work or to use the sidewalks and streets that their tax dollars have funded. 

At some point, society has to protect itself from the elements within it that have proven to be unmanageable.  That’s the kind of policy that prompted this thread.  Allowing people to start homeless encampments just anyplace they please is not compatible with the kind of society that the vast majority of us want to live in. 

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2022, 11:37:09 AM »
To reply to one specific part of this discussion without opening the whole can of worms: I think it’s kind of a red herring to concentrate on whether homeless people are mentally ill or not, because the entire field of mental health seems to be under-going a reckoning of how much their diagnostic categories have any validity at all, and how much these illnesses are nature vs nurture. I think most people would start to come across as a little unhinged after a few months of chronic sleep deprivation, and being ignored or treated like garbage by every person they try to interact with.

If they’re mentally ill, their only shot of improving their condition is if some of their basic human needs start being met. If they’re not mentally ill, their only shot of improving their condition is if some of their basic human needs start being met.

But yes, as @waltworks says, we would ideally start investing in long-term interventions like childhood poverty reduction, affordable mental healthcare, and better education. I think increased access to birth control (including abortions) would make a meaningful difference as well. How many of these homeless people were born into a situation where the parents did not want or were not ready for children? (Like the hypothesis popularized in Freakonomics that Roe V Wade in the ‘70s was a major driver of the sharp reduction of crime in the ‘90s.)

bacchi

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2022, 12:05:56 PM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

Are people though?
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-population-decline-us-census-data-17203868.php

Now try Seattle or Portland or Austin or Denver.

LOLZ u still wrong

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/while-seattles-population-declined-another-king-county-city-saw-fastest-growth-in-wa/

Seattle’s drop in population was relatively small. Many of our “peer” cities had even larger declines, including Portland, Denver,Boston and Washington, D.C. And San Francisco was in a league of its own, losing an astonishing 6.4% of its population (a decline of close to 50,000 people). New York had the biggest numeric loss at 305,000.

You're cherry picking.

Quote from: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/while-seattles-population-declined-another-king-county-city-saw-fastest-growth-in-wa/
It shows that from July 1, 2020, to July 1, 2021, at the peak of the pandemic, Seattle had a net loss of nearly 4,300 people, which represents a decline of 0.6%.

You're claiming that the Seattle population declined between 6/20-7/21 because of progressive policies? You seriously can't think of another reason for a decline during that time period?

Even in 2021, more people moved to Seattle than left.**

How about...

Seattle is so unpopular that housing prices are rapidly increasing.




* https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/seattlecitywashington,US/PST045221
** https://seattlecitygis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/c8cfcb827e564623a6fa3af6360141fe


LennStar

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2022, 12:19:04 PM »
(Like the hypothesis popularized in Freakonomics that Roe V Wade in the ‘70s was a major driver of the sharp reduction of crime in the ‘90s.)

I would put my money on leaded fuel though, because we know that stuff is causing behavior problems and the reduction is consistant globeally.

fuzzy math

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2022, 12:26:52 PM »
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-2-minute-20-second-video-that

Somehow, a guy who wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities doesn’t feel like the best source of well-researched, unbiased information…

Progressive cities are so ruined that everyone is moving to them.

Are people though?
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-population-decline-us-census-data-17203868.php

Now try Seattle or Portland or Austin or Denver.

LOLZ u still wrong

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/while-seattles-population-declined-another-king-county-city-saw-fastest-growth-in-wa/

Seattle’s drop in population was relatively small. Many of our “peer” cities had even larger declines, including Portland, Denver,Boston and Washington, D.C. And San Francisco was in a league of its own, losing an astonishing 6.4% of its population (a decline of close to 50,000 people). New York had the biggest numeric loss at 305,000.

You're cherry picking.

Quote from: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/while-seattles-population-declined-another-king-county-city-saw-fastest-growth-in-wa/
It shows that from July 1, 2020, to July 1, 2021, at the peak of the pandemic, Seattle had a net loss of nearly 4,300 people, which represents a decline of 0.6%.

You're claiming that the Seattle population declined between 6/20-7/21 because of progressive policies? You seriously can't think of another reason for a decline during that time period?

Even in 2021, more people moved to Seattle than left.**

How about...

Seattle is so unpopular that housing prices are rapidly increasing.




* https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/seattlecitywashington,US/PST045221
** https://seattlecitygis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/c8cfcb827e564623a6fa3af6360141fe

You're cherry picking. Housing prices in the midwest and south are also increasing.

You also can't deny that we simply don't have information about the permanent effects of the pandemic and subsequent work from home explosion. People no longer have to live in Seattle or San Fran to work in tech. Those numbers will take years to materialize.
 
In the meantime though, that article did have another piece of data which you may have missed.

In the period from 2019 to 2020, 15 of the largest U.S. cities lost population.

So its not so simple as to say that the pandemic was the start of that migration.

Kris

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2022, 12:57:12 PM »
(Like the hypothesis popularized in Freakonomics that Roe V Wade in the ‘70s was a major driver of the sharp reduction of crime in the ‘90s.)

I would put my money on leaded fuel though, because we know that stuff is causing behavior problems and the reduction is consistant globeally.

There was just a Freakonomics Podcast episode about this research and updates about it.

 https://www.stitcher.com/show/freakonomics-radio/episode/384-abortion-and-crime-revisited-200144512

One of the points made in the show was that, of course, very few effects in the real world have a single, direct cause. Which is part of what makes enacting policy — and having decent discussions or debates about controversial topics — difficult.


PDXTabs

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2022, 03:36:48 PM »
Providing more resources typically isn't very effective either.

People (even very liberal people) are really not big fans of homeless encampments if they actually experience them on a daily basis/live near them. They are dangerous, dirty, and disruptive to the lives of anyone living in proximity. And cheaper housing is not going to help any of them, really.

And why should liberals like dirty dangerous encampments? That doesn't sound very humane. I'm curious what your take on free housing to house the homeless is? Depending on who you ask it would be cheaper than the status quo when you add up all of the costs.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 03:38:40 PM by PDXTabs »

waltworks

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2022, 05:52:47 PM »
And why should liberals like dirty dangerous encampments? That doesn't sound very humane. I'm curious what your take on free housing to house the homeless is? Depending on who you ask it would be cheaper than the status quo when you add up all of the costs.

This was (and probably still is) done in Boulder - there is a program that provides free housing but requires that you participate in some job training/drug treatment and not commit any crimes. It's not super hard to get into (or wasn't 20 years ago when I was involved with the program peripherally) but as a general rule it's just skimming off the folks who basically have/can get their shit together, or else an endless cycle of people getting in, getting in a drunken fight, and getting thrown back out. It has not made a dent in the population of homeless people in Boulder, which has grown tremendously in that time (try taking your kids to hang out by the creek at the library...)

The thing that I think people don't get is that sort of basic executive functions that you and I take for granted are just not present in a lot of these folks. They're not dumb, but they are incredibly impulsive, distractible, and can't follow through on even the simplest of commitments (ie, show up not drunk at this place at 10am on Tuesday). They also cannot deal with social interaction in any kind of healthy or sustainable way, which is one of the big reasons they can't fall back on family support.

You can make these people's lives better in a variety of ways (basic healthcare, helping with safer drug use, etc) but free housing isn't going to change their lives much and many of them don't even desire housing or stability in the way you or I do. Due to genetics, bad childhood experiences/trauma, and/or factors later in adult life, they're just broken. Not always beyond repair, but quite often. You have to start from the understanding that you can only mitigate the harm they do to themselves and try to prevent them from harming others. That's about it.

For those who are interested, there's lot of research about preschool. The big knock against it is usually that the academic (ie, test scores) advantage fades after a few years. The big plus, though, is that it really improves social function/ability to finish tasks/graduation from high school. Lacking those traits is often a quick path to homelessness, so it seems worth trying if we're serious about solving this problem in the long run.

-W
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 06:05:20 PM by waltworks »

Shane

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2022, 08:07:39 PM »
Dr. Gabor Mate's book, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, was really interesting and relevant, I think, to the current discussion.

Quote
From bestselling author Gabor Maté, the essential resource for understanding the roots and behaviors of addiction--now with an added introduction by the author.

Based on Gabor Maté’s two decades of experience as a medical doctor and his groundbreaking work with the severely addicted on Vancouver’s skid row, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts radically reenvisions this much misunderstood field by taking a holistic approach. Dr. Maté presents addiction not as a discrete phenomenon confined to an unfortunate or weak-willed few, but as a continuum that runs throughout (and perhaps underpins) our society; not a medical "condition" distinct from the lives it affects, rather the result of a complex interplay among personal history, emotional, and neurological development, brain chemistry, and the drugs (and behaviors) of addiction. Simplifying a wide array of brain and addiction research findings from around the globe, the book avoids glib self-help remedies, instead promoting a thorough and compassionate self-understanding as the first key to healing and wellness.

In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts argues persuasively against contemporary health, social, and criminal justice policies toward addiction and those impacted by it. The mix of personal stories—including the author’s candid discussion of his own "high-status" addictive tendencies—and science with positive solutions makes the book equally useful for lay readers and professionals.

roomtempmayo

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2022, 11:00:09 AM »
And why should liberals like dirty dangerous encampments? That doesn't sound very humane. I'm curious what your take on free housing to house the homeless is? Depending on who you ask it would be cheaper than the status quo when you add up all of the costs.

This was (and probably still is) done in Boulder - there is a program that provides free housing but requires that you participate in some job training/drug treatment and not commit any crimes. It's not super hard to get into (or wasn't 20 years ago when I was involved with the program peripherally) but as a general rule it's just skimming off the folks who basically have/can get their shit together, or else an endless cycle of people getting in, getting in a drunken fight, and getting thrown back out.

Same issue here.  My city has a surplus of shelter beds, and yet as soon as there isn't snow on the ground tent cities start popping up.

Where I think my fellow lefties often go wrong on the housing issue is believing in the potential of every person to become a productive member of society if given the right conditions.  I've never seen much of any evidence that someone who has been chronically homeless will change their behavior if their circumstances are changed in a reliable manner that could underpin a scalable policy.

The closest I've seen to something like a solution has been to create private efficiency rooms/apartments with as few rules as possible and let people stay for free indefinitely.  The most successful models I've seen have been run by and for indigenous people groups, which have a fixed membership.  It's not a model that really works at the city or state level because (as discussed above) homelessness is a national collective action problem.

If we all decided, at the federal level, to fund private, dignified housing indefinitely with few or no strings attached for about 1/500 people, I suspect we could make street homelessness incredibly rare very quickly.  And until we do that, I doubt much will change.  Tennessee and states like it will continue to push their homeless out, while California and states like it will continue to take them in and spend ever more to just try to maintain the status quo.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2022, 11:15:13 AM »
This is not even remotely true. The data shows that homelessness is predominantly a housing affordability problem. The places with the highest rates of homelessness are also the places with the highest rents. This is no coincidence. If what we knew as homelessness was really just about mental illness and addiction, we'd see more uniform rates of homelessness across the nation, because addiction and mental illness know no geographic boundaries.

It looks like you are combining sheltered and un-sheltered homelessness which are two very different beasts. Sheltered homelessness is more of a housing affordability issue while un-sheltered homelessness tends to be more of a mental issue/addiction issue.
https://abc7.com/ucla-study-homelessness-trauma-homeless-health-problem/5602130/

Just Joe

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2022, 11:50:43 AM »
Why should the punishment for camping on public property be a felony conviction and up to six years housed in a prison? You don't have a house, so you get to go to the big house? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to house more people. I'm not sure it needs to be in prison.

But those for profit prisons need the business! Doesn't TN have for profit prisons?

I thought those were abolished but that might have just been at the federal level. Even state run ones have a lot of privatization for things like foodservice and communications though, so people are profiting at the expense of those less fortunate. Then there are small towns who are economically dependent on prisons and tend to vote republican.  Lots of perverse incentives. Yuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoreCivic

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2022, 12:28:18 PM »
This is not even remotely true. The data shows that homelessness is predominantly a housing affordability problem. The places with the highest rates of homelessness are also the places with the highest rents. This is no coincidence. If what we knew as homelessness was really just about mental illness and addiction, we'd see more uniform rates of homelessness across the nation, because addiction and mental illness know no geographic boundaries.

It looks like you are combining sheltered and un-sheltered homelessness which are two very different beasts. Sheltered homelessness is more of a housing affordability issue while un-sheltered homelessness tends to be more of a mental issue/addiction issue.
https://abc7.com/ucla-study-homelessness-trauma-homeless-health-problem/5602130/

My understanding is that most shelters require that a person not be actively under the influence of drugs to sleep there; is it any wonder that the homeless folks with substance abuse issues don't end up in shelters very often? Similarly if someone has a mental illness that sometimes prevents them from behaving in a safe and orderly manner, should we be surprised that they might be asked to leave shelters, and would give up on trying after a while? Would "unsheltered homelessness" be much of a thing if the shelters were equipped to serve all potential clients instead of making people leave their issues at the door?

I stand by what I've said before: the reason people are homeless is because they can't afford a home. Mental illness and substance abuse are certainly common reasons for this. Better treatment options for people suffering from these things would be great! Having that in place would likely reduce the homelessness rate quite a bit, but all the other reasons people might not be able to pay rent would persist. Regardless, charging people with felonies for being too poor for a home and unable to use a shelter for whatever reason is cruel.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2022, 02:10:16 PM »
I had an aunt that spent a good portion of her life homeless in San Francisco - by choice. She was bipolar and ended up dying a few years ago in her 50s from what was basically an infection. She was given a place to live for free many times but still choose the street. She received a daily allowance of about $20 (not sure if it was a city, state or federal program) and used it to buy a little food and some meth.

I remember her being around when I was younger, and she would sometimes live with my grandma or one of her siblings but eventually always choose to go back to the streets of San Francisco. There was a period where she was on medication, but she would eventually choose to stop taking it. She had a family that tried for basically her entire life to help her but short of committing her to an institutional setting, there was no way to make sure she would take her medication - and little hope she would be a functional member of society.

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2022, 02:38:38 PM »
I've definitely seen the homeless problem in Albuquerque explode in the last few years. It used to be confined mostly to downtown with some people panhandling at major intersections and along freeway offramps. Now there are tents all along the freeway in the areas that are mostly owned by the city/county/state - since there's little or no incentive to remove them as there would be on private property. Some have been completely taken over by homeless camps. No sane person would go into them now.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1047147,-106.6457626,3a,75y,320.75h,88.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skywjgUk35vdlmvfHyD0DdQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DkywjgUk35vdlmvfHyD0DdQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D48.851585%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Here's a Google Streetview of one from January 2022. There are probably about 50 tents in sight. You can look back over the years and see that there might have been a few homeless people hanging out there and some people enjoying the park, now it's a public nuisance. I do wonder if there's some group giving away tents because it used to be rare to see a tent around the city. Now there are probably hundreds.

Several years ago I appraised a small city-owned park (less than half an acre). The city tried (unsuccessfully) to sell it as it had just become a haven for homeless people and no one else could use it. A local police officer I know said that park was one of his favorite hunting grounds as he could always find someone with an outstanding felony warrant. Now it sits surrounded by a chain link fence.


I'm not sure what the solution(s) are, but clearly having a tent city in the middle of a public park is not desirable for anyone - except maybe the homeless industrial complex.

TempusFugit

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Re: AP: With public camping a felony, Tennessee homeless seek refuge
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2022, 04:37:57 PM »

...
I stand by what I've said before: the reason people are homeless is because they can't afford a home. Mental illness and substance abuse are certainly common reasons for this... 


Seems to me that is really stretching the 'affordability' cause.  I would again say that even providing free homes to people with these issues would not work.  The root cause is not financial.  At some point we would just be enabling people to continue destroying themselves. 


"...if the shelters were equipped to serve all potential clients..." 

Sounds a lot like a mental institution, which is what I said originally was lacking as a solution to this issue.   "Serving" crazed drug addicts requires a degree of force. It requires separation from non-crazed, non-drug addled people.  That's just another way of describing either jail or a mental institution.