Author Topic: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....  (Read 7648 times)

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« on: August 22, 2020, 02:02:11 PM »
and opposing your party's intent to disenfranchise voters and sabotage the election?

Listen, I understand you prefer the political positions that the Republican party and I don't fault you for that. Reasonable people can have differences in opinion about how things should be run. However, I defy any reasonable person to try to justify the blatant election fraud being perpetrated by Trump and DeJoy. I defy you to justify how you can support a political party that is using its power to destroy the foundations of our republic to stay in power.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7335
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2020, 02:37:50 PM »
^^^ And there you have the li(n)e they’ve been fed to justify it.

:eye roll:

Warlord1986

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1967
  • Age: 37
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2020, 02:47:56 PM »
You're missing plenty. The reason the USPS has financial difficulties is because they had to pre-pay their retirement accounts for 75 years. This was required by Congress in 2006.

The USPS not only delivers mail in votes, but medication, retail goods, and regular mail. People like my elderly parents get their medicine through the mail, mom and pop shops have had to move to online shopping and shipping goods due to Corona, and many elderly and rural citizens don't have the internet and rely on the mail to send birthday cards to their grandkids. Removing this service is, at best, short sighted and stupid. At worst it is evil.

DeJoy got the job of postmaster because of his donations to the Trump campaign. He is now doing everything he can to subvert the vote and ensure his boss stays in power. It is no coincidence that hours were cut and sorting machines done away with just when there's a crisis that requires many Americans to vote by mail. This is a direct assault on voting rights. Anyone who supports it or tries to pooh-pooh it away should be ashamed.

One more thing: how is removing mail sorting machines supposed to save money?

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2020, 03:27:41 PM »
You're missing plenty. The reason the USPS has financial difficulties is because they had to pre-pay their retirement accounts for 75 years. This was required by Congress in 2006.

[snip]

One more thing: how is removing mail sorting machines supposed to save money?

Bingo! No other Company in the world is forced to do this. It’s stupid. e.g if the USPS hires an 18 year old they have to fund the LIFETIME pension contributions for this worker up front.

Also yeah... deautomating mail sorting is supposed to make the system more efficient? LOL.

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2020, 04:12:18 PM »
The USPS controversy seems like a conspiracy being pushed with little to back it. USPS has been having financial difficulties for years (The Government Accountability Office warned in May that the post office's business model is "not financially sustainable" after it lost $78 billion since 2007.).


As already mentioned, the USPS has financial problems almost entirely due to idiotic law regarding pensions.

Moreover, the post office is a public service not a for profit business. There is exactly zero reason it should be expected to be profitable. No other public service is.

DeJoy has a criminal conflict of interest, he is a major shareholder of UPS. He's a snake in the hen house put in place to destroy the USPS both for election sabotage and his own personal gain.

Quote
DeJoy is making cuts where he is allowed to. He has cut hours and removed mail sorting machines. Despite many people mailing in votes this November and the cuts, the volume will still be within a reasonable amount for USPS.

DeJoy is not allowed to change what is causing the most financial problems without congressional approval. And the bailouts have not helped them.

Is there something I'm missing?

Trump literally stood up and said his goal is to prevent the USPS from getting aid so that mail in voting won't work. Literally that is what he said. He's not even trying to hide it.

How can you support that?

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11477
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2020, 04:50:57 PM »
Reasonable people can have differences in opinion about how things should be run.

However, I defy any reasonable person to try to justify the blatant election fraud being perpetrated by Trump and DeJoy.
What election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

As for mail-in ballots, we received as many applications for people no longer living here as for valid residents.  Reasonable people understand that doesn't open the door wide to fraud, but could also acknowledge that it increases the possibility.

I do agree with your "reasonable people can have differences in opinion...." :)

Warlord1986

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1967
  • Age: 37
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2020, 05:00:16 PM »
The goal posts are not being moved. Tampering with the Post Office creates and exacerbates a variety of problems. Making it difficult to vote using the lie of voter fraud (for which there is no evidence) is only one such problem. There might be less mail, but there is still mail, and disrupting the flow of it when so many are dependent on it for a variety of reasons is foul.

Let's assume that such a 'long range plan' just coincidentally was implemented during an election year. A time when more people are doing more business and transactions by post is a good opportunity and a good justification to postpone implementing such a plan. "We're going to postpone changes due to Covid-19" has worked for a lot of government institutions.

Overtime hours were restored after people got mad. The sorting machines are still gone. I haven't heard anything about DeJoy trying to change the 2006 law. He doesn't want to. The fewer people vote, the better it is for him and his boss.

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2020, 05:28:27 PM »
Reasonable people can have differences in opinion about how things should be run.

However, I defy any reasonable person to try to justify the blatant election fraud being perpetrated by Trump and DeJoy.
What election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

The only way republicans are competitive these days is due to voter suppression efforts. For example, the farcical primaries where 90% of voting locations were closed on election day. To win the presidency, one generally only needs a slight nudge in their direction in a few key places. See 2016 where Trump was beaten by millions in the popular vote but won the EC based on a few thousand votes in a couple of states.

Even today with miserable polling numbers, all Trump needs is that nudge. A nudge that can easily be achieved by sabotaging the mail system in a year where many want to vote by mail, with the overwhelming majority of those wanting to use vote by mail being from the left side of the isle.

Again, this isn't some conspiracy theory crackpottery, this is Trump's stated intent.

How can you support that?

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11477
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2020, 06:15:12 PM »
Reasonable people can have differences in opinion about how things should be run.

However, I defy any reasonable person to try to justify the blatant election fraud being perpetrated by Trump and DeJoy.
What election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

The only way republicans are competitive these days is due to voter suppression efforts. For example, the farcical primaries where 90% of voting locations were closed on election day. To win the presidency, one generally only needs a slight nudge in their direction in a few key places. See 2016 where Trump was beaten by millions in the popular vote but won the EC based on a few thousand votes in a couple of states.

Even today with miserable polling numbers, all Trump needs is that nudge. A nudge that can easily be achieved by sabotaging the mail system in a year where many want to vote by mail, with the overwhelming majority of those wanting to use vote by mail being from the left side of the isle.

Again, this isn't some conspiracy theory crackpottery, this is Trump's stated intent.

How can you support that?
Because, what election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

As for mail-in ballots, we received as many applications for people no longer living here as for valid residents.  Reasonable people understand that doesn't open the door wide to fraud, but could also acknowledge that it increases the possibility.

I do agree with your "reasonable people can have differences in opinion...." :)  Can you see how a reasonable person could look at things this way?

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 895
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2020, 06:19:48 PM »
Whether or not it should be profitable, it is currently having serious financial problems.

I'm curious about what you see as "financial problems". I'm more curious as to how the USPS can have financial problems, but other public services cannot. The National Park Service, for example, runs at a "loss". It greatly benefits the surrounding tourism (just like the USPS greatly benefits us businesses). But in and of itself, it does not generate enough income to cover expenses. Same for most government services. Whether or not you think all of these services is needed is a different (libertarian) story, but complaining about their lack of profitability should not be on the table for reasonable discussion. The government is not in the business of making money. That's for the private sector.

The postal service, while seemingly in the same ballpark as UPS or DHL or whatnot, is a different service. USPS mailboxes are federally protected property. USPS mail is secure in ways that cannot be done by a private service. Taxes, voting, deeds, etc. are all important to have done on a public scale by a public service.

Now, for the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that DeJoy is actually acting in good faith. Let's say that most of the moves he's making are good financial decisions and are good for the long term efficiency of the Post Office. Why on earth would he start mucking around three months before the projected largest mail-in vote that our country is coming up on? What on earth is so important to change that it couldn't wait a few months? This is the hardest part for me to buy. This is what I think should be the canary in the coal mine for those who are suspicious of the people complaining. There seems to be a lot of issues happening with the USPS that were just so gosh darn unnecessary. He should have known that he'd be in the spotlight for messing with the system. It was already in the news before the changes were made. How can someone acting in good faith defend that!?

If you are a business and you are coming up on holiday season, you don't start shuffling around all of your procedures and making major changes to operations before the waves hit. You wait until after holiday season so that you can work through the kinks and make sure that your employees and changes to have unforeseen effects. If I'm going to print out a large document, I don't buy a new printer and try to install it the night before my presentation. I use the old printer that might have some issues and prints slow, but at least I know how to use it. Then I buy a new printer after the presentation.

If DeJoy wanted to show that he really was trying to make a better USPS for the country and the Republicans were really trying to work toward an honest election, their actions are not showing it. They are showing quite the opposite. I think to show a gesture of goodwill, they could handle this situation better. Make the most secure, best possible mail-in election system that they can to show that they can handle being honest, then dismantle the USPS later. I don't care. But to do it before the election is absolutely disgraceful.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11477
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2020, 07:48:36 PM »
Why on earth would he start mucking around three months before the projected largest mail-in vote that our country is coming up on?
According to https://www.uspsoig.gov/sites/default/files/document-library-files/2016/DR-AR-16-007.pdf, "Nationally the number of collection boxes declined by more than 12,000 in the past 5 years."

In short, collection box number reduction has been ongoing for many years, not just recently.

The sorting machine issue is less clear.  At face value it seems odd to take those machines out of service, but there could be non-nefarious reasons (moving, not removing; end of useful life; boneheaded decision; etc.).

Warlord1986

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1967
  • Age: 37
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2020, 09:17:52 PM »
The goal posts are not being moved. Tampering with the Post Office creates and exacerbates a variety of problems. Making it difficult to vote using the lie of voter fraud (for which there is no evidence) is only one such problem. There might be less mail, but there is still mail, and disrupting the flow of it when so many are dependent on it for a variety of reasons is foul.

Let's assume that such a 'long range plan' just coincidentally was implemented during an election year. A time when more people are doing more business and transactions by post is a good opportunity and a good justification to postpone implementing such a plan. "We're going to postpone changes due to Covid-19" has worked for a lot of government institutions.
"In 2018, for instance, the agency decommissioned about 3 percent of its Delivery Bar Code Sorters, or 125 machines. In 2019, it was 5 percent, or 186 machines. The 671 on this year’s list amounted to about 13 percent."
http://archive.is/1zcec

2020 has the highest percentage of decommissioning, but decommissioning a large amount of machines isn't unprecedented.

Overtime hours were restored after people got mad. The sorting machines are still gone. I haven't heard anything about DeJoy trying to change the 2006 law. He doesn't want to. The fewer people vote, the better it is for him and his boss.

DeJoy's opinion about the 2006 law is irrelevant. Only congress can change it.

The percentage of how many machines they removed is irrelevant to my point. DeJoy could have justifiably said that unforeseen circumstances meant the wisest course of action would be to postpone implementing this long range plan. Instead he ramped up implementation and jumped from 5% removal to 13%, just when the private sector and the citizenry really needed those sorting machines.

DeJoy is the Postmaster General. If he wanted to bring order the Post Office's chaos, working with Congress to strike the 2006 law down would have been the way to do it. Instead, he tried to suppress the vote.

I can't decide if you're a troll, or if you really are so horrible that the suppression of the vote is nbd to you. Either way, it's tedious and pathetic. This is my last contribution the discussion. The OP's question was answered. Republicans consistently refuse to do the decent thing. This debacle is one more example of that.

partgypsy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5207
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2020, 09:51:45 PM »
Dejoy said ok, he would stop any changes until after the election. But that is not true. Employees have reported many mail sorting machines being disassembled since then.. Someone I know took a photo in Raleigh NC showing that a row of mailboxes were removed, this happened after that announcement. And yes there is very much a concern about mail in and absentee ballots, with the USPS announcing itself, that ballots may not be delivered in time, and ballots no longer delivered as first class mail. Basically everything that dejoy has done already, is crippling and hamstring the USPS, at a time when Americans depend on the
mail more than ever, and the general election may hinge on it. There is a clear party difference in who intends to vote by mail, with registered Republicans more likely to say they intend to vote in person. That is why this is happening.  httpss://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wral.com/white-house-chief-of-staff-pledges-usps-wont-dismantle-sorting-machines-between-now-and-election-day/19238162/%3fversion=amp
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 10:13:38 PM by partgypsy »

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2020, 10:01:23 PM »
Reasonable people can have differences in opinion about how things should be run.

However, I defy any reasonable person to try to justify the blatant election fraud being perpetrated by Trump and DeJoy.
What election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

The only way republicans are competitive these days is due to voter suppression efforts. For example, the farcical primaries where 90% of voting locations were closed on election day. To win the presidency, one generally only needs a slight nudge in their direction in a few key places. See 2016 where Trump was beaten by millions in the popular vote but won the EC based on a few thousand votes in a couple of states.

Even today with miserable polling numbers, all Trump needs is that nudge. A nudge that can easily be achieved by sabotaging the mail system in a year where many want to vote by mail, with the overwhelming majority of those wanting to use vote by mail being from the left side of the isle.

Again, this isn't some conspiracy theory crackpottery, this is Trump's stated intent.

How can you support that?
Because, what election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

As for mail-in ballots, we received as many applications for people no longer living here as for valid residents.  Reasonable people understand that doesn't open the door wide to fraud, but could also acknowledge that it increases the possibility.

I do agree with your "reasonable people can have differences in opinion...." :)  Can you see how a reasonable person could look at things this way?

If you're just going to repeat yourself and not actually address what I say, then don't waste your time typing.

partgypsy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5207
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2020, 10:04:20 PM »
At the very least, can't Republicans agree that any cost savings measures, should be secondary to maintaining or even improving the USPS ability to handle a historic election where people are relying on the USPS to vote? If anything more should be done to make sure everyone can vote this year rather than: reducing hours open, locations to drop off mail, and general capacity to pick up, sort, and deliver the mail?

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2020, 10:10:27 PM »

DeJoy causing election fraud doesn't follow from him having a conflict of interest.

I wasn't trying to say his conflict of interest indicates fraud. I'm saying his conflict of interest speaks strongly against the claim that he is working to fix or save the USPS.

Quote

Trump literally stood up and said his goal is to prevent the USPS from getting aid so that mail in voting won't work. Literally that is what he said. He's not even trying to hide it.

How can you support that?

Strawman.


It's not at all a strawman. Trump literally said: "Now, they need that money in order to make the post office work, so it can take all of these millions and millions of ballots ...  ‘Now, if we don’t make a deal, that means they don’t get the money. That means they can’t have universal mail-in voting, they just can’t have it.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-seeks-to-starve-post-office-to-limit-mail-in-voting

He's very specifically saying he wants to prevent people from voting by mail.

If you vote for Trump and to keep the republicans in power, you are supporting that.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11477
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2020, 10:14:08 PM »
Reasonable people can have differences in opinion about how things should be run.

However, I defy any reasonable person to try to justify the blatant election fraud being perpetrated by Trump and DeJoy.
What election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

The only way republicans are competitive these days is due to voter suppression efforts. For example, the farcical primaries where 90% of voting locations were closed on election day. To win the presidency, one generally only needs a slight nudge in their direction in a few key places. See 2016 where Trump was beaten by millions in the popular vote but won the EC based on a few thousand votes in a couple of states.

Even today with miserable polling numbers, all Trump needs is that nudge. A nudge that can easily be achieved by sabotaging the mail system in a year where many want to vote by mail, with the overwhelming majority of those wanting to use vote by mail being from the left side of the isle.

Again, this isn't some conspiracy theory crackpottery, this is Trump's stated intent.

How can you support that?
Because, what election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

As for mail-in ballots, we received as many applications for people no longer living here as for valid residents.  Reasonable people understand that doesn't open the door wide to fraud, but could also acknowledge that it increases the possibility.

I do agree with your "reasonable people can have differences in opinion...." :)  Can you see how a reasonable person could look at things this way?

If you're just going to repeat yourself and not actually address what I say, then don't waste your time typing.
My thought exactly.  You didn't address my comments, so I was giving you a second chance.

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2020, 10:16:09 PM »
Whether or not it should be profitable, it is currently having serious financial problems.

I'm curious about what you see as "financial problems". I'm more curious as to how the USPS can have financial problems, but other public services cannot.
USPS is expected to be self-sustaining. It's budget doesn't come from taxes collected.
"The Postal Service is a self-funding entity. We pay for our operations entirely through the sale of postal products and services and do not receive tax revenue to support our business."
https://about.usps.com/news/testimony/2017/pr17_pmg0207.htm


It doesn't matter that the current arrangement for the post office is for it to try to be self sustaining. It's quite literally mandated in the Constitution and should be funded and managed as necessary to to fulfill its purpose.

Quote
Now, for the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that DeJoy is actually acting in good faith. Let's say that most of the moves he's making are good financial decisions and are good for the long term efficiency of the Post Office. Why on earth would he start mucking around three months before the projected largest mail-in vote that our country is coming up on? What on earth is so important to change that it couldn't wait a few months?
It doesn't follow that DeJoy not having good foresight means he is conducting election fraud.

[/quote]

LMAO. He got called on it, and then _lied to congress_ saying that he would halt the changes. Any leeway he might have had to say "I was doing what I thought was right" evaporated with that lie.

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2020, 10:18:55 PM »
Reasonable people can have differences in opinion about how things should be run.

However, I defy any reasonable person to try to justify the blatant election fraud being perpetrated by Trump and DeJoy.
What election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

The only way republicans are competitive these days is due to voter suppression efforts. For example, the farcical primaries where 90% of voting locations were closed on election day. To win the presidency, one generally only needs a slight nudge in their direction in a few key places. See 2016 where Trump was beaten by millions in the popular vote but won the EC based on a few thousand votes in a couple of states.

Even today with miserable polling numbers, all Trump needs is that nudge. A nudge that can easily be achieved by sabotaging the mail system in a year where many want to vote by mail, with the overwhelming majority of those wanting to use vote by mail being from the left side of the isle.

Again, this isn't some conspiracy theory crackpottery, this is Trump's stated intent.

How can you support that?
Because, what election fraud?  Election day is over two months away.  That gives voters - and the USPS - plenty of time to handle proper votes.  If anything, one can reasonably say that warning people not to rely on dropping a ballot in the mail shortly before the election is a public service, and certainly not "election fraud."

As for mail-in ballots, we received as many applications for people no longer living here as for valid residents.  Reasonable people understand that doesn't open the door wide to fraud, but could also acknowledge that it increases the possibility.

I do agree with your "reasonable people can have differences in opinion...." :)  Can you see how a reasonable person could look at things this way?

If you're just going to repeat yourself and not actually address what I say, then don't waste your time typing.
My thought exactly.  You didn't address my comments, so I was giving you a second chance.

You don't consider voter suppression a form of fraud? Is that what you are trying to say?

Again, Trump literally said he goal is to suppress the vote by preventing mail in ballots.

Do you support that?

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11477
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2020, 10:45:41 PM »
You don't consider voter suppression a form of fraud? Is that what you are trying to say?

Again, Trump literally said he goal is to suppress the vote by preventing mail in ballots.
See the quote in Trump admits he's blocking USPS funding:
Quote
But if you don’t get those two items, that means you can’t have universal mail-in voting. Because they’re not equipped to have it. And you see how bad it’s been with this Carolyn Maloney scam. She scammed her way into an election she probably lost. But they said mail-in ballots, its all mixed up. Paterson, New Jersey, same thing. Yesterday Virginia, 500,000 applications for ballots got sent to everybody, nobody even knows. Got sent to dogs. Got sent to dead people. Nobody has no idea what happened. They said, Oh we made a mistake, I’m sorry. Five hundred thousand ballots sent in Virginia. How do you feel about Virginia going in there when you have 500,000 phony ballot applicants? And this is all over.

One person could interpret that as "suppress the vote."  Another person could interpret that as "don't do something that will likely have problematic results."

So no, he did not "literally" say "suppress the vote" (at least not in that quote).

States such as Oregon that have been doing mail-in voting for years (e.g., see State of Oregon: Voting - Voting in Oregon) may be past the start-up woes that often plaque new large systems.  States that would be trying this for the first time - perhaps not.

Thus if one thinks that a significant upheaval in long-established voting practices just might lead to problems in the upcoming election, and you have input such as Fauci says there is 'no reason' Americans can't vote in person in November, a reasonable person could conclude something other than what you have.

partgypsy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5207
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2020, 04:57:08 PM »
What is true is that he has worked for and currently has interests in companies who would benefit if the USPS is hampered or considered less reliable, timely etc. It's a direct conflict of interest. If the USPS does worse, he makes money. That alone should have been reason enough for h not to hold this job.

scottish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2716
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2020, 05:09:42 PM »
Oh come on.  Trump does stuff like that all the time.   It's the new normal.   If it's good for Trump, it's good for deJoy.

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 895
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2020, 05:41:13 AM »
Whether or not it should be profitable, it is currently having serious financial problems.

I'm curious about what you see as "financial problems". I'm more curious as to how the USPS can have financial problems, but other public services cannot.
USPS is expected to be self-sustaining. It's budget doesn't come from taxes collected.
"The Postal Service is a self-funding entity. We pay for our operations entirely through the sale of postal products and services and do not receive tax revenue to support our business."
https://about.usps.com/news/testimony/2017/pr17_pmg0207.htm

Quote
It doesn't matter that the current arrangement for the post office is for it to try to be self sustaining. It's quite literally mandated in the Constitution and should be funded and managed as necessary to to fulfill its purpose.

If USPS should be self-sustaining or not is a different discussion.
Quote
Quote

Please elaborate on how this is a different discussion from the point that the USPS is in financial trouble.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2020, 07:32:38 AM »
I think it shows how much the world has changed that statements of policy by our President are treated as "strawmen" and dismissed by his supporters, who wonder what the big deal is.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1531
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2020, 09:46:13 AM »
I think it shows how much the world has changed that statements of policy by our President are treated as "strawmen" and dismissed by his supporters, who wonder what the big deal is.

Steve Bannon would always deal with the inconvenience of Trump's indefensible statements by saying "You gotta distinguish between the signal and the noise."

Once you adopt this paradigm, you can effectively project any of your interests onto anyone provided they say enough ambiguous things. Kind of nice having the power to determine which things a person means and which things they don't really mean.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7056
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2020, 10:43:31 AM »
I think it shows how much the world has changed that statements of policy by our President are treated as "strawmen" and dismissed by his supporters, who wonder what the big deal is.

Steve Bannon would always deal with the inconvenience of Trump's indefensible statements by saying "You gotta distinguish between the signal and the noise."

Once you adopt this paradigm, you can effectively project any of your interests onto anyone provided they say enough ambiguous things. Kind of nice having the power to determine which things a person means and which things they don't really mean.

This explains QAnon too.

Psychstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2020, 10:52:06 AM »
I think it shows how much the world has changed that statements of policy by our President are treated as "strawmen" and dismissed by his supporters, who wonder what the big deal is.

Steve Bannon would always deal with the inconvenience of Trump's indefensible statements by saying "You gotta distinguish between the signal and the noise."

Once you adopt this paradigm, you can effectively project any of your interests onto anyone provided they say enough ambiguous things. Kind of nice having the power to determine which things a person means and which things they don't really mean.

This explains QAnon too.

I remember listening to an author of a book years ago. I can't recall the name but the premise of the book was that in each chapter, the author reviewed and deconstructed a myth/lore/legend/hoax in each chapter. One chapter on psychics, one of Sasquatch, one of the Loch Ness Monster, etc. The most fascinating to me was when the author talked about how, almost universally, people who approached him about the book said the same thing: "Thanks for writing this, it is such a great way to dispel all that nonsense out there, but you were totally wrong about chapter [whichever one dispels the myth they like and agree with] and here's why:" then they would go off on all the nonsense they believed despite their complete comfort with accepting his use of the same logic and analysis in all of the rest of the book. Really eye opening in people's ability to compartmentalize and rationalize.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2020, 11:09:55 AM »
@bloodaxe , that does clarify things. It sounds as though you're arguing for something other than diminishing the quality and promptness of US postal service.

But we do still have to live in a world in which the Chief Executive of Federal Power makes statements like this. And it's the same world in which that same person has an uncanny ability to warp and modify the playing field of any political issue with these chaotic admissions.

Perhaps a better approach is for us to all start with what we believed in the world in which the Trump position was unknown.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2020, 11:30:56 AM »
@bloodaxe , that does clarify things. It sounds as though you're arguing for something other than diminishing the quality and promptness of US postal service.

But we do still have to live in a world in which the Chief Executive of Federal Power makes statements like this. And it's the same world in which that same person has an uncanny ability to warp and modify the playing field of any political issue with these chaotic admissions.

Perhaps a better approach is for us to all start with what we believed in the world in which the Trump position was unknown.

This is what I said initially:

Quote
The USPS controversy seems like a conspiracy being pushed with little to back it. USPS has been having financial difficulties for years (The Government Accountability Office warned in May that the post office's business model is "not financially sustainable" after it lost $78 billion since 2007.).

DeJoy is making cuts where he is allowed to. He has cut hours and removed mail sorting machines. Despite many people mailing in votes this November and the cuts, the volume will still be within a reasonable amount for USPS.

DeJoy is not allowed to change what is causing the most financial problems without congressional approval. And the bailouts have not helped them.

I have yet to see how there is strong evidence of a conspiracy by DeJoy to commit election fraud.

Knowingly putting myself in a position of conflict of interest can get me fired!!

Does/should different standards of ethics apply to ‘more equal’ people like DeJoy??

Note: it was his choice (it should not have been, it should have been forced as a condition of employment) to NOT divest from his UPS stake.


ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2020, 11:42:54 AM »
Knowingly putting myself in a position of conflict of interest can get me fired!!

Does/should different standards of ethics apply to ‘more equal’ people like DeJoy??

Note: it was his choice (it should not have been, it should have been forced as a condition of employment) to NOT divest from his UPS stake.

It doesn't follow that DeJoy having a conflict of interest means he is committing election fraud.

But it does indicate he is intentionally violating his duties in the office!!

If he immediately took action to mitigate this conflict of interest after this became widely known (who knows, he was appointed by Trump, so maybe he was simply clueless before what conflict of interest means) by either resigning or divesting his ownership of UPS - then only his judgement/competence would be in question. The fact that he has not done so brings his intent in question.

At least that is the standard I would stare at, as a lowly code monkey at a bank, if I was ever suspected of insider trading. Are "more equal" people like DeJoy subject to different standards?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 11:46:12 AM by ctuser1 »

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20746
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2020, 11:49:42 AM »
So basically Trump appointed someone who would be happy to weaken the USPS, not someone who would work to make it better.  Dejoy benefits financially from an inefficient postal service, Trump benefits because mail-in voting is harmed.  And both have demonstrated they totally don't care about conflict of interest.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2020, 12:06:45 PM »
Knowingly putting myself in a position of conflict of interest can get me fired!!

Does/should different standards of ethics apply to ‘more equal’ people like DeJoy??

Note: it was his choice (it should not have been, it should have been forced as a condition of employment) to NOT divest from his UPS stake.

It doesn't follow that DeJoy having a conflict of interest means he is committing election fraud.

But it does indicate he is intentionally violating his duties in the office!!

If he immediately took action to mitigate this conflict of interest after this became widely known (who knows, he was appointed by Trump, so maybe he was simply clueless before what conflict of interest means) by either resigning or divesting his ownership of UPS - then only his judgement/competence would be in question. The fact that he has not done so brings his intent in question.

At least that is the standard I would stare at, as a lowly code monkey at a bank, if I was ever suspected of insider trading. Are "more equal" people like DeJoy subject to different standards?

Again, having a conflict of interest is not the same as committing election fraud. No matter the reason for his conflict of interest.

Did you see anything in my posts about election fraud, yet?

Do we agree that there is conclusive evidence of DeJoy's incompetence (for having the conflict of interest when taking office) AND malfeasance (for not having taking care of the said conflict of interest at the first opportunity) is well-established at this point.

By implication, the malfeasance of all Republican politicians who defend the said incompetence AND malfeasance is also established beyond any reasonable doubt. Isn't it??

Or, are you arguing that some "more equal" people deserve special treatment?

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2020, 01:31:07 PM »
It's not clear cut, when looking at opinions by legal and ethical experts.

His XPO stock is ok with USPS legal counsel, as long as he recuses himself during potential conflicts of interest:

"Decisions regarding XPO contracts are made at much lower levels in the organization. If, however, an issue relating to XPO came before Postmaster General DeJoy, he would be obligated to recuse himself or, if recusal were not practicable, the Ethics Office would require divestiture. To date, no such issue has arisen."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/politics/postal-service-dejoy-conflicts-amazon-trades-xpo-stake/index.html

It seems like he is OK to have these investments as long as he recuses himself or divests when a conflict of interest arises:

"The Postal Service does not require the Postmaster General to divest any particular assets. Rather, the Postmaster General may be required to divest an asset if a conflict of interest arises, and the Postal Service determines that his participation in the matter is so crucial that he may not disqualify himself"

"The postmaster general is not required to divest of all of his assets in these kinds of investments. However, he needs to steer clear of decisions that would materially benefit the companies he is invested in. He should recuse himself from such decisions if it even comes close to that line”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fact-check-postmaster-general-louis-dejoy-invested-competitors/5550480002/

However, even if he was not allowed to have these investments, I'm not sure how that would show he is committing election fraud.

The other two questions aren't related to the thread topic.

Does he have a clear cut responsibility to avoid conflicts of interest? Or does his responsibility end with the opinion of some ethics guy somewhere, who likely reports to him or are influenced by him or Trump?

[For reference, I do, as a lowly code monkey at a bank. Anybody in any "regulated position" does! I likely won't be fired for first such offense if it was a genuine mistake, but patterns or continuations can lead to firing and prosecution.]

UPS will become more valuable if USPS becomes less reliable. He has the power to make USPS less reliable. Is that a clear enough conflict of interest?

Is it possible for him to recuse himself of his ability to make USPS less reliable while he is a postmaster general?

Did he remove himself of such capability in his capacity of postmaster general, or remove the conflict of interest in his ownership of UPS?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 01:35:10 PM by ctuser1 »

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2020, 02:20:45 PM »
So basically Trump appointed someone who would be happy to weaken the USPS, not someone who would work to make it better.  Dejoy benefits financially from an inefficient postal service, Trump benefits because mail-in voting is harmed.  And both have demonstrated they totally don't care about conflict of interest.
Yep! All under the guise of "the USPS is struggling financially so we must weaken it further."

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20746
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2020, 02:30:21 PM »
So basically Trump appointed someone who would be happy to weaken the USPS, not someone who would work to make it better.  Dejoy benefits financially from an inefficient postal service, Trump benefits because mail-in voting is harmed.  And both have demonstrated they totally don't care about conflict of interest.
Yep! All under the guise of "the USPS is struggling financially so we must weaken it further."

Glad I got the essentials.

Canada Post is operating at pre-Christmas levels.  There would be marches on Parliament Hill if there were service cuts.  I see so many people on Ravelry complaining about the USPS slow order delivery that it is obvious that parcel delivery is already damaged.

sixwings

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 534
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2020, 02:40:54 PM »
After reading the first page I think the answer to this thread is "no, there are not."

It seems they would rather use the not-supported-by-evidence voter fraud to create voter suppression and are quite happy to do that.

In general I think the expectation is to never expect Trump fans/Republicans to do the right thing, they don't have a sense of right/wrong/decency anymore.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2020, 02:54:36 PM »

UPS will become more valuable if USPS becomes less reliable. He has the power to make USPS less reliable. Is that a clear enough conflict of interest?

His UPS shares were sold: "he sold off UPS class B shares in that value range on June 24."

I looked for a document showing his investments, but couldn't find one. One might have to submit a FOIA document to actually see them. All I can find are news articles talking about them.

https://factcheck.thedispatch.com/p/does-the-postmaster-general-have

Ok. So that factcheck seems to mention he sold UPS but still owns between $30M-$70M in XPO logistics "other assets" - whatever that may mean.
Do we agree that the fact he had not divested of this position before taking appointment is a problem?

Is it possible for him to recuse himself of his ability to make USPS less reliable while he is a postmaster general?

I don't see why not.

You mean he can recuse himself from running USPS? Any form of "running" = influencing how USPS performs, including the ability to sabotage it, isn't it?

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2020, 03:23:54 PM »
Everyone employed by public and private industries has the ability to sabotage something. Just because DeJoy has the ability to cause fraud doesn't mean he is. For example, you may have the ability to do something nefarious to your bank's server, but it doesn't mean you will.
Exactly.
People in higher positions, of course, have higher abilities to do so. Because of this, the norm is for them to divest from conflicts of interest.
e.g. Bush (who was independently wealthy, unlike Obama), and all other relevant presidents had set up blind trusts.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/15/ronald-reagan-did-it-george-h-w-bush-did-it-bill-clinton-did-it-george-w-bush-did-it-donald-trump-wont-do-it/

We do know Trump does not believe in doing the right thing (reference: the article above, and many other details you can google up). We also do know DOJ won't prosecute him as a matter of policy.

Questions for this topic is, does DeJoy and the wider republicans defending him believe in doing the right thing? Did he do the right thing by keeping his XPO conflict of interest alive?

The only assets listed are Amazon and XPO, which is a USPS contractor. He could have other conflicts of interest. I would prefer to see a document listing his investments to be sure. But again, I can't find one available.

Amazon uses USPS for 40% of their shipping so it wouldn't benefit them if USPS performance went down. I don't see how XPO would benefit from USPS doing worse in performance. There could be a conflict of interest if USPS creates a request for proposal and XPO is a bidder. But if DeJoy recuses himself from the situation, I don't see a problem.

Have you ever worked in a regulated position? Or know someone who has?
I'm guessing no, from the above.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2020, 04:17:11 PM »
Everyone employed by public and private industries has the ability to sabotage something. Just because DeJoy has the ability to cause fraud doesn't mean he is. For example, you may have the ability to do something nefarious to your bank's server, but it doesn't mean you will.
Did he do the right thing by keeping his XPO conflict of interest alive?

In previous posts, we found that USPS legal counsel and outside government ethics experts found this fine as long as he recuses himself correctly. Other outside government ethics experts don't find this fine.

I don't know anything about XPO and how serious the chance of a conflict of interest being present is. So I have to appeal to authority: maybe.

Now, finally I got it!!

Republicans are doing the right thing because republican-appointed-experts (the same ones that okay'ed Trump's no-blind-trusts-who-cares-about-ethics setup) are saying they are doing the right thing.

Thanks for explaining.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 04:27:13 PM by ctuser1 »

js82

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2020, 04:55:30 PM »
Focusing exclusively on the USPS ignores the broader context: We're having an election.  In the middle of a Pandemic.  There a bunch of ways to make this election safer:

1. Add more polling places: This reduces the number of people per polling place, amount of time standing in line, and therefore the total infection risk.

2. Early voting for a week before the election, everywhere:  This spreads voting across a period of time, reducing people density, and therefore total infection risk.

3. Expand mail-in-voting: Self-explanatory.  Avoids face-to-face exposure.

If you don't like mail-in voting, there are a bunch of ways to make the election much safer, many of which don't involve mail-in voting.  But this isn't what's being done.

If there were truly valid concerns about voter fraud, we'd have politicians pushing for policies that keep us safe(r) while still mitigating their alleged concerns, not sticking their heads in the sand and pretend that the pandemic isn't happening.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20746
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2020, 06:46:28 PM »
Everyone employed by public and private industries has the ability to sabotage something. Just because DeJoy has the ability to cause fraud doesn't mean he is. For example, you may have the ability to do something nefarious to your bank's server, but it doesn't mean you will.
Did he do the right thing by keeping his XPO conflict of interest alive?

In previous posts, we found that USPS legal counsel and outside government ethics experts found this fine as long as he recuses himself correctly. Other outside government ethics experts don't find this fine.

I don't know anything about XPO and how serious the chance of a conflict of interest being present is. So I have to appeal to authority: maybe.

Now, finally I got it!!

Republicans are doing the right thing because republican-appointed-experts (the same ones that okay'ed Trump's no-blind-trusts-who-cares-about-ethics setup) are saying they are doing the right thing.

Thanks for explaining.

More Furtive Fallacy.

Also, this still isn't related to DeJoy committing election fraud. His investments are separate from this.

Is the point really him committing election fraud or not?  Isn't the point that election results are being coerced/manipulated by not implementing any of js82's suggestions plus making mail-in voting very unreliable?

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2020, 06:49:26 AM »
The overtime was restored until after the election.
Changes were made to policies that affect overtime. Those changes have not been reversed. Only a verbal commitment was made to make no further changes to affect overtime. The damage has already been done. 

Quote
The mail sorters can't be recomissioned, but most or all of them were going to be removed before DeJoy was appointed.
Absolutely they can. Well the ones that weren't permanently dismantled certainly could be.  In fact DeJoy said he would be recommission machines, in congressional testimony, if they received $1bn from the federal government. In 2018 the agency decommissioned 125 machines. In 2019 it was 186 machines. This year it was 671. See any discrepancies? The notice to dismantle this many machines was not sent out and received untl mid-June. DeJoy was in fact Postmaster General at that time and is ultimately responsible for the removal of all machines. 

Quote
Because of this, I don' find it convincing that there is a conspiracy to commit election fraud.
Trump disagrees with you. DeJoy doesn't have to be directly committing election fraud. He is complicit.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 10:33:38 AM by MasterStache »

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2020, 07:18:38 AM »
Everyone employed by public and private industries has the ability to sabotage something. Just because DeJoy has the ability to cause fraud doesn't mean he is. For example, you may have the ability to do something nefarious to your bank's server, but it doesn't mean you will.
Did he do the right thing by keeping his XPO conflict of interest alive?

In previous posts, we found that USPS legal counsel and outside government ethics experts found this fine as long as he recuses himself correctly. Other outside government ethics experts don't find this fine.

I don't know anything about XPO and how serious the chance of a conflict of interest being present is. So I have to appeal to authority: maybe.

Now, finally I got it!!

Republicans are doing the right thing because republican-appointed-experts (the same ones that okay'ed Trump's no-blind-trusts-who-cares-about-ethics setup) are saying they are doing the right thing.

Thanks for explaining.

More Furtive Fallacy.

Also, this still isn't related to DeJoy committing election fraud. His investments are separate from this.

What the fuck is a furtive fallacy?

Greystache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 593
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2020, 08:43:00 AM »
The Republicans have invested heavily in a strategy of voter suppression, especially in the south. Examples include reducing the number of polling places in democrat majority districts and making it harder for college students to vote on campus. Vote by mail negates much of that strategy. It would could cause the republicans to lose closely contested districts or at least force them to spend more money fighting for what used to be a safe district. The Trump administration is fighting to hold on to their voter suppression strategy by casting doubt about mail in voting instead of making sure it is effective efficient. If Russia's goal is to shake America's faith in its democratic system, Putin must be coming in his pants right now.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1531
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2020, 09:23:07 AM »

More Furtive Fallacy.

Also, this still isn't related to DeJoy committing election fraud. His investments are separate from this.

What the fuck is a furtive fallacy?

Funnily enough, some of the worst offending furtive fallacies begin with the familiar prelude "A lot of people are saying..."

sixwings

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 534
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2020, 09:42:03 AM »
The Republicans have invested heavily in a strategy of voter suppression, especially in the south. Examples include reducing the number of polling places in democrat majority districts and making it harder for college students to vote on campus. Vote by mail negates much of that strategy. It would could cause the republicans to lose closely contested districts or at least force them to spend more money fighting for what used to be a safe district. The Trump administration is fighting to hold on to their voter suppression strategy by casting doubt about mail in voting instead of making sure it is effective efficient. If Russia's goal is to shake America's faith in its democratic system, Putin must be coming in his pants right now.

Don't forget strict voter ID laws followed by closing DMVs in black neighborhoods (that got reversed after it was found to disproportionately impact black people).

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1531
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2020, 12:39:00 PM »
There could be a conflict of interest if USPS creates a request for proposal and XPO is a bidder. But if DeJoy recuses himself from the situation, I don't see a problem.

Except that his subordinates are well aware their boss would have a clear favorite and it would not be unreasonable to assume they have incentive to choose XPO to curry favor with DeJoy.


PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2020, 12:45:17 PM »
Is there something I'm missing?

My packages from Los Angeles, CA to Portland, OR that used to take three days now take nine, and suddenly get routed through Texas?

I'll never vote for another Republican for as long as I live (and I used to frequently as an avid shooter, but that was before they showed themselves to be the party of obstructionists during the Obama years). You can have a different opinion on the direction to take the country, as long as that direction isn't obstruction and decay.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 12:47:58 PM by PDXTabs »

Malloy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 403
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2020, 07:25:08 PM »
The USPS controversy seems like a conspiracy being pushed with little to back it. USPS has been having financial difficulties for years (The Government Accountability Office warned in May that the post office's business model is "not financially sustainable" after it lost $78 billion since 2007.).

DeJoy is making cuts where he is allowed to. He has cut hours and removed mail sorting machines. Despite many people mailing in votes this November and the cuts, the volume will still be within a reasonable amount for USPS.

DeJoy is not allowed to change what is causing the most financial problems without congressional approval. And the bailouts have not helped them.

Is there something I'm missing?

Why is removing AND DESTROYING mail sorting machines a cost savings measure?  Some of those machines are brand new.  Why not just turn them off if they don't need them?   This part of your "eh, it's all fine" argument seems suspect. 

I haven't seen any sources that the level of 2020 removals, nearly triple last years removals and more than 4x the 2018 removals, is necessary or any reasonable explanation as to why trashing machines that presumably save human labor is a cost savings measure. 

I think the answer to the question is that Republicans who still support Trump don't give a crap what he does or why he does it as long as he wins.  The mental gymnastics we've seen are a poor substitute for having a summer olympics.

Malloy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 403
Re: Any Republicans out there doing the right thing....
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2020, 08:08:49 PM »

The removal of machines saving money has already been addressed in this thread. The consolidation process saves USPS hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

If USPS is not getting a large traffic volume, it doesn't matter how much time it saves. It could be losing money if volumes are smaller than what is necessary to get a return on investment.  Since 2001, the amount of mail handled has been decreasing. The amount now is nearly half of what it was in 2001.

I don't support trump. Can you think of another reason why one doesn't believe in this conspiracy theory?

But how does "consolidation" lead to removal of mail sorting machines?  What's the link between the removal of these particular machines and consolidation?   I read the link you provided, and it did not discuss mail sorting machines.  Can you explain how the mail sorting machines are involved in consolidation? I'm wondering what I'm missing.  Why trash a brand new mail sorting machine?  Why destroy the machines?  These seem to be unusual actions, and I am not sure how consolidation is a catch all explanation.