The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Parisian on December 27, 2014, 12:42:42 PM
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I am not sure it's the right forum where to post this question, but I am eager to find out if there are other childfree by choice people of MMM ? Especially women? It's a highly unusual choice where I live, so I am always happy to exchange views with like-minded folks.
Yep. I'm 60 years old and have the number of children I wanted: 0.
No regrets.
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Yep. Growing up with siblings much younger than me gave me the opportunity to see how difficult a job parenting really is. Also if I did have children I would feel guilty droping them off at daycare; the other option would be to stay at home. I love my job and I do not think I would be happy being a homemaker. I love my life just the way it is and I was lucky enough to meet a like minded man.
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Both of us are genetic-offspring-free, however, we are both interested in fostering older children/teens, ever since we heard some statistic about the number of children in our community who are thrown out of their homes because they are gay/lesbian/trans, or pregnant. That though will need to wait until we are finically comfortable.
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We are likely CBC. We love children, but mostly love that they belong to someone else. We're millenials but raised in an area where you marry straight out of highschool and pop out a kid or three immediately, so we get a lot of "you'll change your mind." The worst is when people assume because we don't hate all children that we must secretly want to breed/adopt a whole house full of our own.
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58, no kids, no regrets. I knew when I was 14 that I did not want kids. I have 3 stepdaughters, 3 nephews, a niece, and 2 goddaughters as well as their numerous offspring. No lack of kids in my life. I love them all. I am always happy to see them and am equally happy when they go home, leaving me and DH alone with the cats. My stepdaughters joke about my complete lack of maternal instincts. So true. I am the crazy aunt to all of them, a role I was born to play.
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*waves hello*
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58, no kids, no regrets. I knew when I was 14 that I did not want kids. I have 3 stepdaughters, 3 nephews, a niece, and 2 goddaughters as well as their numerous offspring. No lack of kids in my life. I love them all. I am always happy to see them and am equally happy when they go home, leaving me and DH alone with the cats. My stepdaughters joke about my complete lack of maternal instincts. So true. I am the crazy aunt to all of them, a role I was born to play.
Haha, we may be related! I also have no maternal instinct, and knew in my early teens that I didn't ever want kids -- my dad and stepmom had a baby when I was 13, and another when I was 15, and the crib was in my bedroom. Nope nope nope. Not for me.
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No kids for me. I just want to be the eccentric rich aunt :D
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We are child-free by choice. I'm also known variously as "the fun aunt" and "the crazy aunt". My husband, on the other hand, has been serious since childhood and is not known as the crazy uncle. I suppose that's good. :)
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Similar to others I decided at 14 I didn't want kids. I'm the oldest of five and when my parents had the last one when I was 14 I was done with that nonsense.
As I got older I became more interesting in parenting, but have maintained my severe aversion to biological reproduction (I'm female) so had my tubes tied one month after my wedding when I was 31. I'm possibly interested in fostering/adoption, but my husband would have to be totally onboard with that as well, and his current job situation would make kids difficult, so likely I'll just be an aunt forever. I'll find other ways to help out younger people.
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I am! My husband and I have been married 12 years and we've never second guessed the choice. Other people finally started accepting it at about year 10 of marriage.
I'm trying to convince him to get a vasectomy - but so far he just scrunches up his face and makes frightened noises at the mere mention. What a pussy.
I'm not even in the "fun aunt" category. I really generally dislike children. I try to fake it and be kind to them though - it's not their fault that they're kids. My husband is much better with kids than I am, but only really warms to them as fellow humans after they reach the age of 15 or so.
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I'm in this club. I too am the "fun-crazy aunt" and step-mom by choice! I have dogs to "mother". I can't screw them up too badly.
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56 and childless by choice. My sister is nine years younger than me and I raised her and then had to take care of various family members. I was 17 when I decided to get a degree in Engineering as I wanted a career that paid well and would be interesting. I also knew I didn't have the stamina to work full time and take care of kids and a house. I have had the opportunity to travel all over the world and live in EU. I haven't missed having kids. I have a lot of younger friends who have kids and when I am old and senile I'll get them to run me around places. When I talk about retiring in 4 yrs at work my peers (who would also like to retire) just shake their heads as they are in the middle of paying college costs for their kids and their retirement funds are woefully underfunded even though they make six figure salaries and in most cases have a spouse who works full time as well.
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Yup, me too. I'm 45, never wanted kids, never had any. Married at 40, to a man with one adult child and no interest in any more (yay!). We have a good life.
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Yep. Another childfree couple here, by choice.
Whatever the genetic thing is that makes people like/want to have babies/children, we're missing it.
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Childfree by choice here, too. I knew early on I didn't want kids. People would give me baby dolls for gifts and I was like "What do I do with this?" I never changed that opinion. Friends and relatives insist on handing me their babies to coo over and I'm still going, "What do I do with this?"
Nope. I have no biological clock and I don't really even like kids. I put up with my nieces and nephews, but I just don't "get" kids at all.
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I am! My husband and I have been married 12 years and we've never second guessed the choice. Other people finally started accepting it at about year 10 of marriage.
I'm trying to convince him to get a vasectomy - but so far he just scrunches up his face and makes frightened noises at the mere mention. What a pussy.
I'm not even in the "fun aunt" category. I really generally dislike children. I try to fake it and be kind to them though - it's not their fault that they're kids. My husband is much better with kids than I am, but only really warms to them as fellow humans after they reach the age of 15 or so.
This.
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Married, no children. I made that decision when I was in high school and have never changed my mind. I'm so introverted that a child would leave me just mentally exhausted all the time.
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Yep, another childfree couple! Sterilization is the best birth control!
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When people ask if we have kids, I always answer..."No, we've been very careful."
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I am! My husband and I have been married 12 years and we've never second guessed the choice. Other people finally started accepting it at about year 10 of marriage.
I'm trying to convince him to get a vasectomy - but so far he just scrunches up his face and makes frightened noises at the mere mention. What a pussy.
I'm not even in the "fun aunt" category. I really generally dislike children. I try to fake it and be kind to them though - it's not their fault that they're kids. My husband is much better with kids than I am, but only really warms to them as fellow humans after they reach the age of 15 or so.
Hilarious! love this post :)
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We're also child free by choice. I'm 45, Mr. cthoops is 55, no kids for either of us and zero regrets.
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When people ask if we have kids, I always answer..."No, we've been very careful."
Will have to use that line sometime ;)
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30 and Childfree by choice. Not very uncommon where I am from. Partner is older than I am and I can use him as an excuse :)
I am in an office with five other women, another one of them (31 or 32?) has a similar attitude.
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Child-free by choice here: never had the urge and never regretted it.
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Yup, me too. I have some adorable nieces and nephews, I hope to be their loving aunt for a long time. But that's it.
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Another childfree, 33, hubby is 31 and got the vasectomy ( I think he was 28 at the time) when I started showing him the surgery options for women. I did consider the Essure but was worried at the time as it was a new procedure and the women procedures are less effective than the vasectomy for men. However, it was my first choice if I was the one to get sterilized.
I like kids ages 2 and up in person but I have no interest in hearing about them despite having some mother friends whose lives revolve around their kids. I grin and bear it. I also helped my mom take care of other people's kids from a young age and then on my own as a teenager so I have done my time.
Hubby had no urge to breed, I figured I would have either a kid or a husband so when I got the husband, I was comfortable not having any more people in my immediate household. Strong introvert here hence one other person is fine, two is a bit much. We both have bad genetics so figured if we changed our minds later, adoption is still a better choice.
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I have never wanted kids. I had a serious relationship with a dude from South America several years ago (I think it's mandatory there to have kids haha) and I caved and said I'd have one, but then we broke up and now I'm single and able to honor my true desire to be childfree by choice forever. It's not unusual in my circles. I do also see the opposite now as well -- single women my age/income choosing to have children on their own. Any choice is valid, I just don't feel it's for me.
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We are also a childfree couple by choice. Children are too expensive and we would no longer be able to live life as we see fit if we had them. Our lives would become taking care of them 24/7. We would much rather enjoy taking trips and having quiet time for ourselves.
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Add me as another member of the club. I too knew from an early age that I didn't want kids. I was born in a rural, somewhat backward area and the career path for girls was: go to high school (graduation optional), marry a guy ASAP. He'd get a job in the local factory, you'd buy a double-wide trailer and then you'd start producing kids. It was a generational trap that I had no intention of staying around for. At 18, diploma in hand, I broke my boyfriend's heart and left town to get some further education. I couldn't afford to graduate, as I could see that student loans were yet another trap. But I got enough of an education that I was employable. Not high-income employable but a darn sight better than a local factory job. When I went back home 5 years later my old classmates wouldn't talk to me. One of them said "You're so sure you're better than we are!" I looked at her back as she walked away and said to myself. "You're damn right about that."
It's coming up on my 35 year high school reunion and I have no intention of ever going back.
My husband, for his own reasons is also CFBC. It's worked out fine.
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Hello! One more CF by choice right here. I never had the desire to have children of my own; I'm almost 50 now and have absolutely no regrets. When people ask me why I don't have kids I tell them I have 23 nieces and nephews, 14 of whom are great-nieces an nephews. Having all of those children in my life is quite enough thank you.
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No kids for me. I just want to be the eccentric rich aunt :D
Exactly!
:D
When I was in high school I thought I'd want kids eventually. I think it was because that was what I was supposed to want according to culture. But it never happened and the older I get the less I want to have them. Since I was 18 I always said maybe I'd want to have kids in another 5 years... but not yet. By the time I hit 30 I started to rethink the idea completely since I had no real desire for kids. Then I used to worry I'd eventually regret not having kids when I was older. Now that's no longer a concern. :)
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When people ask if we have kids, I always answer..."No, we've been very careful."
Not bad. I usually go with "I'm too young to have kids. In a few years, I'll be too old. I think it's going to work out great."
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Wife of 7 months (together 8.5 years) and I do not want children, so we're childfree as well. At 25, we're still not quite ready to make me sterile, as we still make the occasional "if we have kids..." statement. There were a lot of those made while we were dating, but she's an aunt to 13, 2 of which she spent the first couple months with (temporarily lived with her sister), making her hesitant to have kids of her own, and babies scare me with their seemingly random screaming and endless poop streams. Some part of me still feels like I won't be complete / live a full life if we don't have kids, but perhaps that will change; it's the romantic idea of having children, while my rational side keeps telling me it's a bad idea.
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"But you can still adopt!!!"... ;)
I like to finish that sentence with "... From the pound."
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I'm only 22, but my significant other and I are on the same page with regard to being child-free.
I've volunteered with underprivileged and disabled children and found it very rewarding. Hopefully when we settle down somewhere we can find a Boys and Girls Club or something to give back one way or another, but we're pretty convinced that we don't want kids of our own.
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Another CFBCer here! Nearing 40 and not a moment of regret or wavering.
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Not a woman... but wife and I are in the club. We've been married 20 years now. No regrets.
I'm trying to convince him to get a vasectomy - but so far he just scrunches up his face and makes frightened noises at the mere mention. What a pussy.
Tell him I said it is no big deal. 5 minutes from "Hello Dr. How are you?" to "If there is any discomfort, use ice and ibuprofen."
I did it at about 23 years old.
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Not a woman... but wife and I are in the club. We've been married 20 years now. No regrets.
I'm trying to convince him to get a vasectomy - but so far he just scrunches up his face and makes frightened noises at the mere mention. What a pussy.
Tell him I said it is no big deal. 5 minutes from "Hello Dr. How are you?" to "If there is any discomfort, use ice and ibuprofen."
I did it at about 23 years old.
I've known of a lot of guys that had it done young, but my SIL could not find a doctor that would tie her tubes at 24 because she "might change her mind". She already had one kid and he was bad enough. Heck of a double standard there
On an unrelated note, my nephew is the best form of birth control ever
It isn't necessarily a double standard. This can be true for vasectomies, too.
When I had mine (almost 30 years ago) I had to shop around. I then had to sign a long paper that explained in great detail that this should not be considered reversible and that I understood AND THEN my wife had to go in and sign a very similar form. Under no circumstances would he have done the procedure if I was single or if my wife wasn't in on it.
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Not a woman... but wife and I are in the club. We've been married 20 years now. No regrets.
I'm trying to convince him to get a vasectomy - but so far he just scrunches up his face and makes frightened noises at the mere mention. What a pussy.
Tell him I said it is no big deal. 5 minutes from "Hello Dr. How are you?" to "If there is any discomfort, use ice and ibuprofen."
I did it at about 23 years old.
I've known of a lot of guys that had it done young, but my SIL could not find a doctor that would tie her tubes at 24 because she "might change her mind". She already had one kid and he was bad enough. Heck of a double standard there
On an unrelated note, my nephew is the best form of birth control ever
I got my tubal at age 27, but I think it helped that I had a regular primary care doc for several years and warmed her up to the idea. I started telling her at 24 that I didn't want kids, and when we ruled out an IUD at age 27 I told her I was ready for the snip. She called the surgeon personally and told him that I was a good candidate. When I met him, he said "Age has nothing to do with it. Some people know what they want at 20. Others are doing it for the wrong reasons at 40."
10 years later, no regrets. Adoption is our theoretical escape-hatch if we change our mind, but as the years go by we feel even more secure in our decision, not less secure.
SIS
DH was nervous about vasectomy, so I volunteered to do the tubal. I know people say it's a bigger deal for women, and it is, but I found it pretty painless. One day off work, sore for a couple days but no worse than cramps.
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I never made a conscious decision not to have kids. I don't mind kids and I enjoy babies. However, there was never a time in my life when having a kid seemed like a good idea. Most of the time it would have been a disaster. So I never got around to having them. Now I'm too old. Oh, well! My life is good!
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Not a woman... but wife and I are in the club. We've been married 20 years now. No regrets.
I'm trying to convince him to get a vasectomy - but so far he just scrunches up his face and makes frightened noises at the mere mention. What a pussy.
Tell him I said it is no big deal. 5 minutes from "Hello Dr. How are you?" to "If there is any discomfort, use ice and ibuprofen."
I did it at about 23 years old.
I've known of a lot of guys that had it done young, but my SIL could not find a doctor that would tie her tubes at 24 because she "might change her mind". She already had one kid and he was bad enough. Heck of a double standard there
On an unrelated note, my nephew is the best form of birth control ever
I had a tubal at 21, but you have to be INCREDIBLY stubborn and persistent to make that happen - I'm closer to a donkey than anyone I know for stubbornness, and it still took 4 years to find someone to do it. I understand why they do it, but geez...
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I never wanted children until later in my 20s. Now my only real regret in life is that I did not have more.
I do support strongly personal choice. I myself was never so adamant about "no kids" that I would have sought sterilization - after all birth control is readily available.
For those that have deeply held beliefs it probably should be an option earlier provided there are some standardized checks and balances and there should be equal access for men and women imo.
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Add me to the list (and my husband!). I'm 36 and got sterilized late 2014. Took a long time to find a surgeon that would even talk to me about it. When I did get to see him he was great and completely understood me (he was a bit taken aback though when I said I knew since I was about 11 that I wasn't going to have kids). Had a bilateral salpingectomy, for two reasons - zero failure rate (1 in 400 tubal ligations fail) and reduced risk of ovarian cancer (new research published last year).
I could no longer take hormonal birth control and my husband was unable to have a vasectomy (he has an issue that makes it a complicated surgery), so we needed something fail-safe. Previously we'd used more than one birth control method.... failure was never an option for me (it also surprised my surgeon that at my age I'd never had a pregnancy scare).
I dislike babies vehemently, don't find them remotely cute. Children of an age where they have a decent personality and bowel control are a different matter. I even borrow my friends kids for fun days out and get along with them really well. Actually, since I've been sterilized, I feel more free to express this and interact with kids, since people are less likely to tell me how wonderful I am with children, how I really should have them and how I'll change my mind.
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Don't have children b/c "everyone else in our area has them"
However, I wonder why you're asking this question on a forum?
You'll NEVER EVER regret having a child. You may regret remaining childless?
This quote was taken from my nephew's father's FB page. He didn't become a Dad until well into his 40's when MY sister 'mistakenly' became pregnant with his child. After the birth he wrote:
"A child fills a hole in your heart you never knew existed."
I was truly touched.
P.S. My beautiful, spunky, lively, ADORABLE, nephew is now 7. :)
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You'll NEVER EVER regret having a child. You may regret remaining childless?
Hmmm. Why post that in this thread?
Far too damaging psychologically to a child to say "I wish I'd never had you", so quite a few people have the decency not to admit that their child was unwanted. (Also, probably quite a few are not willing to admit to the world that they've been suckered.) Some reluctant parents will even step up to the plate and do a decent job of parenting. But the proportion of men (and some women) who have children and then walk away from the child, from their parenting role, and from their financial responsibilities is enormous. You think there's no regrets from the parents who left? You think there's no regrets from some of the parents who stayed? I call bullshit.
Also, getting "mistakenly" pregnant, or being got "mistakenly" pregnant, no matter the outcome, is a shitty way to bring a new person into the world, no matter how awesome that person is.
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CFBC here. I'm a teacher, and while I enjoy kids, I can't imagine going home to more of them after work.
How many of you made the decision before your current relationship vs. after? I've never wanted kids, and when I met my boyfriend (of 6 years) he'd already had 2 (yes, two) vasectomies, so it was never an issue we had to navigate.
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You'll NEVER EVER regret having a child. You may regret remaining childless?
Maybe no one's trusted you enough to tell you that they regret their children. I know at least three people who regret having children (which is a different thing from not loving your children). It's not the kind of thing you say to your child, or to a stranger, or to a sanctimonious asshat.
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What a great thread! It's interesting to see how many of us had similar experiences/conclusions. I was 10 and 12 years older than my younger siblings and helped raise them through high school ("parent" teacher conferences, the works). I also babysat for the neighborhood and was a nanny. I love children and especially love my role as the fun aunt, but I've known since I was 11 that I didn't want to have children or be a full-time mother. I get a lot of flak about it from friends/family, but I know myself and love my life. SO has his own reasons, but we've been on the same page since we were friends. I'll likely always volunteer/spend time with children, but CFBC is right for me.
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You'll NEVER EVER regret having a child. You may regret remaining childless?
Maybe no one's trusted you enough to tell you that they regret their children. I know at least three people who regret having children (which is a different thing from not loving your children). It's not the kind of thing you say to your child, or to a stranger, or to a sanctimonious asshat.
Just came in to say exactly this!!
I know quite a few people who regret having kids! So many that I am more often warned not to have kids unless I'm very sure I want them, than I am to be pressured and questioned why I don't have any kids yet.
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Married, child free by choice, can't type more right now as we are going snowmobiling and don't need to wait on a babysitter :-)
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How many of you made the decision before your current relationship vs. after?
I married my husband at age 20. At that point, I knew that I didn't want children, but was young enough that it hadn't really become a hard and fast decision. Up until that point, I would say things like "I don't think I want kids" and I would hear "Oh, you'll change your mind! Wait til you turn 30/meet the right guy/have a pregnancy scare/hold one/blah blah blah!" I heard so many times that I would change my mind that I thought maybe they were right.
Even so, early in our relationship, I know I had enough of a discussion about our mutual ambivalence that my pre-husband and I discussed whether we would have an abortion if there was an unplanned pregnancy (there never was).
When we got married, DH wasn't sure and I know that I told him that if he really wanted a kid, I would have one (and only one), but that he would have to accept that the brunt of childcare responsibilities. I told him, for example, that if he wanted a stay at home parent for his child, it was going to him or a nanny. While I was sure I would love our child - I'm not the warm, nurturing mothering type.
So every year we would have a general discussion about it and then say, "Well, not right now. Let's talk about it next year." We kept looking for that "hole" that people say children will fill - and we never found it. Eventually our annual conversation came around and our ambivalence had solidified into a decision not to have children. Now we have an annual discussion about sterilization.
It's been interesting how other people have changed the tone of their conversation with us, too. We don't hear people say, "You'll never regret having children!" so often anymore. Now men tell my husband, "You'll never regret getting a vasectomy!" And as others have mentioned, I sometimes feel like a priest taking confession: "I love my children, but..."
"... I only had them because it was so important to parents/grandparents."
"... I only had them because my spouse wanted them."
"... I wish I had waited/had fewer."
"... Thank god I got a vasectomy after that last one."
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It's been interesting how other people have changed the tone of their conversation with us, too. We don't hear people say, "You'll never regret having children!" so often anymore. Now men tell my husband, "You'll never regret getting a vasectomy!" And as others have mentioned, I sometimes feel like a priest taking confession: "I love my children, but..."
"... I only had them because it was so important to parents/grandparents."
"... I only had them because my spouse wanted them."
"... I wish I had waited/had fewer."
"... Thank god I got a vasectomy after that last one."
truth! i guess people told me i'd change my mind up until i was around 20 ... then it became obvious that i was a big weirdo and they gave up.
but one great thing about never having kids is that you never have to stay with someone for the kids. i have seen a couple of up-close and personal situations where people stay together for the kids and it is never pretty.
one of these situations was a couple who, after falling in love and marrying at record speed, quickly fell out of love as well. but by then they'd had three kids, all of whom have special needs, and they were stuck, oftentimes locked together in a cycle of mutual hatred and regret that was absolutely awful to witness.
the other was a on-again/off-again couple who had one child who was seven. their relationship was always tumultuous -- the dude honestly seems like a total dipshit (won't work and also tries to pull the traditional gender roles bullshit which is a hilariously bad combo). anyway ... it had taken her years to get him out of her house but still in their daughter's life, and they had an unsteady equilibrium. then they got drunk one night and had sex and she got pregnant, and decided to give him another chance for the kids' sake. now he's moved back in, is being a dipshit, actively making her life worse with these two kids instead of pitching in, and she's got to either just deal with it, or go through all the BS of getting his temper-tantruming ass out of her house again.
i never want to feel like i'm stuck with anyone. which to me at least is another compelling reason not to have kids.
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I never wanted children until later in my 20s. Now my only real regret in life is that I did not have more.
I don't see what point you are trying to make in a thread about who's childfree by choice on MMM.
I wouldn't think of posting on the infertility/miscarriage thread saying "Hi, I am happily childfre by choice and sterilized", it would be rude, insensitive and not relevant to the thread's subject.
If you have children are you prohibited from posting because of this? Who makes those rules? I don't see how a voluntary choice to not have children equates to a thread on involuntary infertility in any way shape or form.
I note you failed to quote the remainder of my post in your response. As you will note, my mind changed from being opposed to children to wanting them in my late 20s. I am not the only person out there who experienced this shift and maybe some people here will too. Others will not.
There are also a number of people who did go with sterilization and then regretted this choice later and the stats show it is higher for woman and men who were sterilized under 30:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10362150
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/permanent-sterilization-procedures-for-women-beyond-the-basics
https://www.bestvasectomy.com/vasectomy-regret-real-but-often-delayed-risk-of-vasectomy/
Given how much I've ended up loving having children and wishing I had had more, despite my earlier strongly-held beliefs, I think the possibility that regret could arise later and birth control might be a preferable option until past 30 for some should be considered and mentioned. Reversals are uncertain and expensive and are frequently requested operations.
And yes, I have read the recent article by the woman who was furious with her doctor for telling her she needed to wait until 30. I agree, the choice should be available.
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MOD NOTE: People with and without children are free to post in any thread, as long as they are following forum rules. There's no need to be rude to each other, even if you are at different stages of life or have different opinions about how best to live your own life. Let's have no more discussion of who is posting, but rather the content of their message. Thanks.
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I note you failed to quote the remainder of my post in your response. As you will note, my mind changed from being opposed to children to wanting them in my late 20s. I am not the only person out there who experienced this shift and maybe some people here will too. Others will not.
This is the difference between childfree and childless people. Childfree people know what they want in life and pursue it regarding kids, rather than flip-flopping. Even you said you weren't adamant enough about it to pursue sterilization, which is really the litmus test of whether someone wants kids or not.
There are also a number of people who did go with sterilization and then regretted this choice later and the stats show it is higher for woman and men who were sterilized under 30:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10362150
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/permanent-sterilization-procedures-for-women-beyond-the-basics
https://www.bestvasectomy.com/vasectomy-regret-real-but-often-delayed-risk-of-vasectomy/
Interestingly, the first one indicates almost the same level of regret between women under 30 who never had kids (6.3%) and women over 30 as a whole (5.9%). The "regret" problem is basically heavily women who already had a kid or two then decided they were done, rather than people who never wanted kids to begin with.
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I note you failed to quote the remainder of my post in your response. As you will note, my mind changed from being opposed to children to wanting them in my late 20s. I am not the only person out there who experienced this shift and maybe some people here will too. Others will not.
This is the difference between childfree and childless people. Childfree people know what they want in life and pursue it regarding kids, rather than flip-flopping. Even you said you weren't adamant enough about it to pursue sterilization, which is really the litmus test of whether someone wants kids or not.
There are also a number of people who did go with sterilization and then regretted this choice later and the stats show it is higher for woman and men who were sterilized under 30:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10362150
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/permanent-sterilization-procedures-for-women-beyond-the-basics
https://www.bestvasectomy.com/vasectomy-regret-real-but-often-delayed-risk-of-vasectomy/
Interestingly, the first one indicates almost the same level of regret between women under 30 who never had kids (6.3%) and women over 30 as a whole (5.9%). The "regret" problem is basically heavily women who already had a kid or two then decided they were done, rather than people who never wanted kids to begin with.
I think you are probably right about level of certainty Zikoris. You knew very early on that you definitely did not want children and pursued sterilization rigorously. I thought I didn't want children but was never so motivated as to pursue sterilization under 30. Someone with your level of motivation/certainty should have the option.
I'm not sure if I agree with the definition of "childfree" and "childless". There are cases of people who believed they were "childfree", went through sterilization and then regretted this choice and became "childless". This may have resulted in them spending a lot of money on reversal attempts. Women under 30 are about 8 times as likely to undergo a reversal than those underwent sterilization after 30. http://www.contraceptionjournal.org/article/S0010-7824(05)00314-8/abstract
I also am not sure I agree with your interpretation of the study. The first study shows much lower regret for those who never had children 14 years after the sterilization, but the cumulative probability of expressing regret during a follow-up interview within 14 years after tubal sterilization was 20.3% for women aged 30 or younger at the time of sterilization and 5.9% for women over age 30 at sterilization without separating out childless from those with children. I would suggest that decline in regret after 14 years partially represents a normal acceptance curve that comes with the end of biological possibility.
I'm not sure how accurate the vasectomy link is because there is no underlying data linked but it states:
"Although sterilization regret is not the most immediate risk of sterilization, it is the most common.
Large studies of female sterilization have demonstrated less than 4% of women will regret their sterilization in the first several years. With the passage of time, these same studies have demonstrated the percentage of women who regret their sterilization procedures will increase and as many as 30% will regret their tubal ligations.
It is estimated that up to 20% of men may regret their vasectomy procedures. Regret changes with time.
Regret can be transient and normal and regret can also be persistent and abnormal."
It may be a more economical and practical solution for a percentage of the population to wait and use birth control until they are out of the higher risk group if you believe in the stats.
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Don't have children b/c "everyone else in our area has them"
However, I wonder why you're asking this question on a forum?
You'll NEVER EVER regret having a child. You may regret remaining childless?
This quote was taken from my nephew's father's FB page. He didn't become a Dad until well into his 40's when MY sister 'mistakenly' became pregnant with his child. After the birth he wrote:
"A child fills a hole in your heart you never knew existed."
I was truly touched.
P.S. My beautiful, spunky, lively, ADORABLE, nephew is now 7. :)
I'm sorry that your life and your nephew's father's life had a hole and you weren't complete in and of yourself. That must have been difficult. I'm thankful I was never in that position. I don't have a hole in my heart or my life, and thus I don't need to reproduce to fill it. But I'm glad that it was an option for your Nephew's father, and that he made a choice that worked for him, just as I made a choice that worked for me. I respect his choice. I wish you respected mine, rather than insulting my by suggesting that my choice is likely to be regretted, while implying your's is somehow regret-proof. It isn't. Plenty of people regret having children.
I won't regret not having kids any more than you regret having them. What is I said, "I will NEVER EVER regret not having kids. You might regret having them"? You assume you know my mind and my life better than I do. You reality is not everyone's.
Your choices are yours and I respect them, and I respect you (as a random stranger) enough to not suggest that I know better than you do whether or not you'll regret something you've put thought into. Show me the same courtesy. Just because you are happy with your choice doesn't mean I'd be happy with your choice, too, any more than I could say that because not having kids has made me happy, it's the right choice for everyone.
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Discussions like these are always interesting to me. I appreciate the honesty I've seen here.
When my wife and I first met it did not take us long to realize that we had a very similar vision as to what our lives together would look like. Somehow, without even discussing it much, we both knew that having children was not the path we wanted. We have spent perhaps 10 minutes in our 10 year marriage pondering the merits/downsides to having them. It is just UNDERSTOOD between us.
It is only really around the Christmas season that my mind wonders what parenthood would be like - these are not regretful feelings necessarily... just whimsical thoughts about how our lives would be DIFFERENT. I am fairly confident that our lives WOULD NOT be better overall... just different.
To us, complete personal freedom to live our lives as we want is the most important thing. I think such thinking is what gets the "childless by choice" people the SELFISH label. I think it's just who we are. I do know that many parents of our age look at our life with poorly disguised envy. It is a wonderful lifestyle - one that we have carefully crafted. Kids would not be compatible with this.
We want to be able to skip down to Mexico for 3 months. We want to be able to launch our kayaks and camp out on different west coast islands for weeks on end. These are the types of experiences that we LIVE FOR. Some people choose to LIVE FOR their children and that is admirable - that is the life my sister has chosen. It's just not for us though.
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Yes, and you may not have retired as early!
I've never every thought of childfree people as selfish. Why in the world is it a selfish choice? It is a personal choice and one that has merit for many reasons. Not the least of which is that having children without really wanting to seems potentially disastrous.
Given my change in feelings I have thought that some of those that don't have children by choice may not be fully aware of how excellent it can be. Then again, others have posted that they have been envied by those who regret having children.
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If you have children are you prohibited from posting because of this? Who makes those rules?
...
As you will note, my mind changed from being opposed to children to wanting them in my late 20s. I am not the only person out there who experienced this shift and maybe some people here will too. Others will not.
There are also a number of people who did go with sterilization and then regretted this choice later and the stats show it is higher for woman and men who were sterilized under 30...
Given how much I've ended up loving having children and wishing I had had more, despite my earlier strongly-held beliefs, I think the possibility that regret could arise later and birth control might be a preferable option until past 30 for some should be considered and mentioned. Reversals are uncertain and expensive and are frequently requested operations.
I think that the reason you received such a negative reaction is that your opinion is a common one that childless-by-choice women hear. And while you mean well, it comes across as patronizing and infantilizing.
"Oh, you'll understand how wrong you are once you have some baybees!" "LOL - I felt that way when I was young too - once I grew up, I understood how empty my life was without children."
Even in posting the study that said that 20% of women who are sterilized under 30 express regret - you ignored what the results actually said. The study specifically notes that among women who never had children, only 6.3% expressed regret when they had been sterilized under 30. 94-95% of women who never had children never expressed any regret, regardless of the age that they sought sterilization. It turns out that these regretful women are mothers who wanted more children.
I am not commenting on the vasectomy link. It doesn't cite sources and it appears to exaggerate the level of regret among sterilized women, which casts doubt on that link as a source.
In essence, it seemed as though you were coming to this thread to argue "Women who love babies regret not having (more) babies, therefore, you too may regret not having babies (when you grow up and realize how much you love babies)." It came across as trolling - which I don't think was your intention. But it was taken that way.
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Even in posting the study that said that 20% of women who are sterilized under 30 express regret - you ignored what the results actually said. The study specifically notes that among women who never had children, only 6.3% expressed regret when they had been sterilized under 30. 94-95% of women who never had children never expressed any regret, regardless of the age that they sought sterilization. It turns out that these regretful women are mothers who wanted more children. ...
In essence, it seemed as though you were coming to this thread to argue "Women who love babies regret not having (more) babies, therefore, you too may regret not having babies (when you grow up and realize how much you love babies)." It came across as trolling - which I don't think was your intention. But it was taken that way.
Actually I do not believe sterilization study shows that only 6.3% of women who were sterilized under 30 and childless expressed regret. It showed that this percent expressed regret after 14 years. The rate for women with children was also much lower 14 years later. Likely in part because of acceptance and biological/aging limits.
The 20% rate of regret in the first 14 years was the combined childfree and women with children rate. There was also no separation of sterilization for medical reasons.
There would need to be separate study of childfree and under 30 sterilizations and voluntary (not medical) to have more accurate data. The rate of regret is likely lower than 20% for childfree. I just don't think there is good data on it. Canada is in process to develop clinical guidelines for young fe/male sterilization - none currently exist which is frustrating.
In the CREST study (referenced in the link), the 14-year cumulative probability of requesting reversal information was as high as 40.4% in women who underwent sterilization between ages 18 years and 24 years— almost four times higher than for women older than 30 years at the time of the procedure. Similarly, men who underwent vasectomy at young ages were more likely to have the procedure reversed than those who underwent vasectomy at older ages. http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Fulltext/2013/02000/Practice_Bulletin_No__133___Benefits_and_Risks_of.41.aspx
And I never said "when you grow up you will love babies". What I said was that I changed my mind in my later twenties and that there certainly is a percentage of those who go through sterilization at a young age because they don't want kids that will later regret it and try to reverse it. An expensive and stressful process. I don't know what separates out those who will change their mind from those who won't or even if it can be done. I think a set process with a checklist for self-identification would help but, ultimately, it is an individual's choice.
I'm not sure why those who are childfree and want to remain that way are offended. It is a statistic, not a belief. Being childfree and being sterilized are not synonymous.
It may be that my comments on changing my mind are simply unwelcome by those who do not have the same feelings. And I was childfree by choice until my later twenties by the definition - not childless. I certainly respect this choice but I also understand that the desire to have children can arise later in life for some.
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Discussions like these are always interesting to me. I appreciate the honesty I've seen here.
When my wife and I first met it did not take us long to realize that we had a very similar vision as to what our lives together would look like. Somehow, without even discussing it much, we both knew that having children was not the path we wanted. We have spent perhaps 10 minutes in our 10 year marriage pondering the merits/downsides to having them. It is just UNDERSTOOD between us.
It is only really around the Christmas season that my mind wonders what parenthood would be like - these are not regretful feelings necessarily... just whimsical thoughts about how our lives would be DIFFERENT. I am fairly confident that our lives WOULD NOT be better overall... just different.
To us, complete personal freedom to live our lives as we want is the most important thing. I think such thinking is what gets the "childless by choice" people the SELFISH label. I think it's just who we are. I do know that many parents of our age look at our life with poorly disguised envy. It is a wonderful lifestyle - one that we have carefully crafted. Kids would not be compatible with this.
We want to be able to skip down to Mexico for 3 months. We want to be able to launch our kayaks and camp out on different west coast islands for weeks on end. These are the types of experiences that we LIVE FOR. Some people choose to LIVE FOR their children and that is admirable - that is the life my sister has chosen. It's just not for us though.
This is more our situation I suppose. I would be a pretty awful mother. I am not sure I would trust me with a pet or a houseplant for that matter. But when houseplants wilt from lack of care, no one much minds except a few deeply compassionate plant people who take them off my hands. My husband raised his younger sister and has had enough of raising children (though he is much better with them than I am). Sometimes I contemplate what it would have been like to take the path that led to having children, but some of us were just not made to be good parents. I do like children in small doses, especially if they are reasonably smart and well-behaved, which my nieces and nephew always are. But enjoying other people's children on occasion is not the basis for planning a life around raising ones own.
Like others here, we've always pretty much known we didn't want children. My husband knew from his early teens and I did as well. He got a vasectomy in our twenties. In my late forties, I spent one year with terrible regrets but was glad to emerge from that year with a greater understanding of how lucky I was to have chosen as I did.
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I'm not sure why those who are childfree and want to remain that way are offended. It is a statistic, not a belief. Being childfree and being sterilized are not synonymous.
It may be that my comments on changing my mind are simply unwelcome by those who do not have the same feelings. And I was childfree by choice until my later twenties by the definition - not childless. I certainly respect this choice but I also understand that the desire to have children can arise later in life for some.
It's offensive because there's no such thing as "used to be childfree", any more than those people who claim they "used to be gay", or any number of things. You weren't childfree. You never were. You didn't know what you wanted. If you did, and it was NO KIDS, sterilization would have been an obvious thing to pursue.
"Childfree" does not mean you don't want kids now because you're focusing on your career or travel or whatever. It doesn't mean you don't want kids now because of your financial or life situation. It doesn't mean you don't want kids now because of your current partner, or lack of relationship. It means you've made the conscious choice to never have kids, generally involving sterilization. Period. There's no flip-flip "maybe I will, maybe I won't".
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You didn't know what you wanted. If you did, and it was NO KIDS, sterilization would have been an obvious thing to pursue.
I find this to be a surprising claim. Not everybody likes submitting to unnecessary medical procedures.
Additionally, if you don't plan to ever have sex, sterilisation offers no benefits except in the case of rape, which is a real threat, but not a threat that I would have have a medical procedure in anticipation of.
Furthermore, if you change your mind about wanting to raise children (and I'm not saying you will), you could still adopt. So sterilisation has not committed you to being childfree.
My point is that whether you undergo a medical procedure is a distinct issue from whether you are childfree.
Sure, there would be VERY few and far between exceptions - people who can't have surgery done for whatever reason (blood problems, reaction to anesthetic, etc), or people who would never have sex (what percentage of the population would that be?). But overall, as a childfree person who's done a lot of dating and had to weed out people who thought they were childfree but weren't actually, the most accurate way of telling someone's true feeling about kids is the sterilization question.
I do sympathize with childfree people who have tried to have the procedure done without success. But if someone hadn't even attempted yet called themselves childfree, I'd assume they were not.
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I find this extremely disturbing. You are saying that unless there is a medical reason that a person cannot submit to this surgery, they are not serious about their position. Basically, a person cannot be serious about their identity unless they "back it up" by risking their life on an unnecessary surgery.
There are no medical reasons why I cannot submit to some sterilisation procedure. But I'm not going to. I also never plan to have sex, but I'm not going to mutilate my genitals to "back that up". I find it very disturbing that you would even suggest that willingness to submit to a surgery is relevant to somebody's identity.
I'm not saying they have any sort of obligation to, I'm saying that the nature of being childfree leads a person to WANT sterilization. It's an easy and fast procedure with minimal recovery. Lifelong abstinence is not realistic or desirable for the vast majority of people, though it certainly is a viable alternative.
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I find this extremely disturbing. You are saying that unless there is a medical reason that a person cannot submit to this surgery, they are not serious about their position. Basically, a person cannot be serious about their identity unless they "back it up" by risking their life on an unnecessary surgery.
There are no medical reasons why I cannot submit to some sterilisation procedure. But I'm not going to. I also never plan to have sex, but I'm not going to mutilate my genitals to "back that up". I find it very disturbing that you would even suggest that willingness to submit to a surgery is relevant to somebody's identity.
I'm not saying they have any sort of obligation to, I'm saying that the nature of being childfree leads a person to WANT sterilization. It's an easy and fast procedure with minimal recovery. Lifelong abstinence is not realistic or desirable for the vast majority of people, though it certainly is a viable alternative.
All right.
I wonder, though, do you consider somebody who adopts children to be childfree?
It seems like most of the life decision around having children is really the raising of them -- that's a many-year commitment. The actual pregnancy and giving of birth is no easy task either, but it takes less than a total, compared to at least 16 or so years of daily involvement with the child once it is born.
So I would speculate that being childfree is really about not wanting to raise children, in addition to not wanting to give birth to them. Under that rubric, somebody who adopts a newborn and raises it through all stages of life is not childfree.
In some alternative reality where I was in a romantic relationship and wanted children, I'd probably want to adopt rather than creating my own because there are already so many children in need of loving families that it almost seems cruel to create more. I wonder if anybody else feels that way, and that is why they don't want to create biological children and so get sterilised, but they are still open to doing a good deed and raising some adopted children, or being foster parents or similar.
I think it's awesome when people adopt and I wish more people would go that route rather than have their own given how many kids are starving to death in the world, but a kid is a kid - adopters are not childfree.
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I find this whole discussion interesting - taking in all of the opinions on the child free by choice to the ones that regretted their earlier decision to be child free, etc. It's good when people have options....unless they don't as the child-free-not-by-choice, as me.
I started my life thinking I'd have children, until I found out as a teenager that I couldn't. I come from a culture where you are just "supposed" to have children. I knew people that didn't have children, but always thought it was because they were unmarriable, or someone who would have a child in the future (yes, this was my limited childhood thinking).
I was told by my mom to keep my infertility quiet, so it was quite devastating. I entered the dating world thinking every guy I would meet would obviously want children as I thought everyone felt this way. So it damaged certain relationships because I felt unsure to announce my child-free-not-by-choice status.
As I grew up, I started to see people adopting and hearing infertility talked about more openly. I still thought I was going to meet my dream guy and end up going through IVF or something to then have a baby. But I was having a pretty great life waiting for this to happen, so continued to put it on hold.
Then as I got even older (well I am still mid 40s) and I still hadn't met my dream guy, I met a lot of women that were active in sports that told me they were child-free-by-choice. These were women that were married or divorced or never married. It blew my mind! After talking with them about it, it actually helped me accept my infertility completely. I can have a complete and fulfilling life without children!
It was an emotional rollercoaster to go from someone who (obviously) wanted children, to being child-free-not-by-choice, to being child-free-by-choice (kind of because it's not really a choice but a full acceptance). I wish more people would talk more openly about this so that women like me could accept their fate sooner and live a more open life.
Accidentally, I have discovered that being child-free is very FIRE friendly.
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I'm not sure why those who are childfree and want to remain that way are offended. It is a statistic, not a belief. Being childfree and being sterilized are not synonymous.
It may be that my comments on changing my mind are simply unwelcome by those who do not have the same feelings. And I was childfree by choice until my later twenties by the definition - not childless. I certainly respect this choice but I also understand that the desire to have children can arise later in life for some.
It's offensive because there's no such thing as "used to be childfree", any more than those people who claim they "used to be gay", or any number of things. You weren't childfree. You never were. You didn't know what you wanted. If you did, and it was NO KIDS, sterilization would have been an obvious thing to pursue.
"Childfree" does not mean you don't want kids now because you're focusing on your career or travel or whatever. It doesn't mean you don't want kids now because of your financial or life situation. It doesn't mean you don't want kids now because of your current partner, or lack of relationship. It means you've made the conscious choice to never have kids, generally involving sterilization. Period. There's no flip-flip "maybe I will, maybe I won't".
I'm not sure what you are saying as you seem to have created your own definition. Your definition implies no possibility of changing your mind or making a different choice and, further, that sterilization might be proof of this. I did look up the definition and this is not what it is currently. Childfree covers those who choose not to have children. It does not mean a permanent orientation for everyone nor is desiring sterilization required.
I do believe there are innate differences in orientation towards having children, but, so far, childfree does not include an element of permanence or sterilization, but it does require voluntary choice. Maybe one day soon this will be defined or clarified - it probably should be if it is indeed a specific orientation/mindset that must contain an element of permanence.
As it is what you are saying is that I am not permitted to self-define as previously childfree, as in I had made a choice between the ages of 14 to 26 to never to have children, informed others and partners of this, and then changed my mind - even though this is what occurred and even though I fit the dictionary definition of childfree as a result.
This reminds me of people needing to label other people's sexual orientation into a category. The truth is that the lines are grey for many - some people are asexual or gay or bisexual or whatever - sometimes this changes - for example, someone without a marked preference might find a compatible partner of a specific gender and identify a specific way as a result. Some of us are not so definable.
I note that if an element of permanence is required you could truly never be labelled "childfree" until death. I would suggest that, at this point, it would be respectful to permit an individual to self-identify, just like with gender as the complicated interweavings of socialization, biology, and psychology do not always lend themselves to labelling by others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childfree
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/childfree
http://www.yourdictionary.com/childfree
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I understand some of your level of frustration in that the conversation veered off from a response to your original question and involved responses from people you did not want to hear from with views you may not share.
That is the way posts work on a public forum though. They often morph into other interesting discussions related to the original post and if it gets too off-topic the moderators will move that portion of the conversation to another thread. I can recall a number of posts that started out with a simple question and evolved into a discussion of the various issues related to the question. I generally learn a lot from them and appreciate the free speech and open discussion.
You'll probably feel quite frustrated if you try to control or limit the content of a post here. You can't and you don't have the right to limit free speech.
What you can do is appeal to a moderator to move a section of the discussion to its own thread if you feel strongly that it should not be part of the original topic. It may get you further than what you are doing, I'm not sure - they follow their own guidelines.
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This thread sure is something now. Sure is something.
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I'm not sure what you are saying as you seem to have created your own definition. Your definition implies no possibility of changing your mind or making a different choice and, further, that sterilization might be proof of this. I did look up the definition and this is not what it is currently. Childfree covers those who choose not to have children. It does not mean a permanent orientation for everyone nor is desiring sterilization required.
I do believe there are innate differences in orientation towards having children, but, so far, childfree does not include an element of permanence or sterilization, but it does require voluntary choice. Maybe one day soon this will be defined or clarified - it probably should be if it is indeed a specific orientation/mindset that must contain an element of permanence.
As it is what you are saying is that I am not permitted to self-define as previously childfree, as in I had made a choice between the ages of 14 to 26 to never to have children, informed others and partners of this, and then changed my mind - even though this is what occurred and even though I fit the dictionary definition of childfree as a result.
This reminds me of people needing to label other people's sexual orientation into a category. The truth is that the lines are grey for many - some people are asexual or gay or bisexual or whatever - sometimes this changes - for example, someone without a marked preference might find a compatible partner of a specific gender and identify a specific way as a result. Some of us are not so definable.
I note that if an element of permanence is required you could truly never be labelled "childfree" until death. I would suggest that, at this point, it would be respectful to permit an individual to self-identify, just like with gender as the complicated interweavings of socialization, biology, and psychology do not always lend themselves to labelling by others.
Maybe you're not familiar with the movement, but the ENTIRE PURPOSE of "Childfree", the reason it exists in the first place, is to differentiate us from the "I want kids but can't have them" and "I have no clue what I want" people.
It's really irritating to have people use the term incorrectly. Reminds me of people who are "vegetarian" but eat chicken, fish, and pork (the other white meat) - just represent yourself for what you are. There's a term for what you were, and it's "fence sitter". Not a bad thing, but not childfree.
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I'm not sure what you are saying as you seem to have created your own definition. Your definition implies no possibility of changing your mind or making a different choice and, further, that sterilization might be proof of this. I did look up the definition and this is not what it is currently. Childfree covers those who choose not to have children. It does not mean a permanent orientation for everyone nor is desiring sterilization required.
I do believe there are innate differences in orientation towards having children, but, so far, childfree does not include an element of permanence or sterilization, but it does require voluntary choice. Maybe one day soon this will be defined or clarified - it probably should be if it is indeed a specific orientation/mindset that must contain an element of permanence.
As it is what you are saying is that I am not permitted to self-define as previously childfree, as in I had made a choice between the ages of 14 to 26 to never to have children, informed others and partners of this, and then changed my mind - even though this is what occurred and even though I fit the dictionary definition of childfree as a result.
This reminds me of people needing to label other people's sexual orientation into a category. The truth is that the lines are grey for many - some people are asexual or gay or bisexual or whatever - sometimes this changes - for example, someone without a marked preference might find a compatible partner of a specific gender and identify a specific way as a result. Some of us are not so definable.
I note that if an element of permanence is required you could truly never be labelled "childfree" until death. I would suggest that, at this point, it would be respectful to permit an individual to self-identify, just like with gender as the complicated interweavings of socialization, biology, and psychology do not always lend themselves to labelling by others.
Maybe you're not familiar with the movement, but the ENTIRE PURPOSE of "Childfree", the reason it exists in the first place, is to differentiate us from the "I want kids but can't have them" and "I have no clue what I want" people.
It's really irritating to have people use the term incorrectly. Reminds me of people who are "vegetarian" but eat chicken, fish, and pork (the other white meat) - just represent yourself for what you are. There's a term for what you were, and it's "fence sitter". Not a bad thing, but not childfree.
I dunno about this. One can be childfree, that is adamantly against having children, and yet still change their mind later. That doesn't mean they don't know what they want, they do, just that their wants change. Just like an atheist can "find God"; it doesn't mean they weren't an atheist before, but they simply changed their mind.
(of course, this whole conversation is foam in a thread of introductions)
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I'm not sure what you are saying as you seem to have created your own definition. Your definition implies no possibility of changing your mind or making a different choice and, further, that sterilization might be proof of this. I did look up the definition and this is not what it is currently. Childfree covers those who choose not to have children. It does not mean a permanent orientation for everyone nor is desiring sterilization required.
I do believe there are innate differences in orientation towards having children, but, so far, childfree does not include an element of permanence or sterilization, but it does require voluntary choice. Maybe one day soon this will be defined or clarified - it probably should be if it is indeed a specific orientation/mindset that must contain an element of permanence.
As it is what you are saying is that I am not permitted to self-define as previously childfree, as in I had made a choice between the ages of 14 to 26 to never to have children, informed others and partners of this, and then changed my mind - even though this is what occurred and even though I fit the dictionary definition of childfree as a result.
This reminds me of people needing to label other people's sexual orientation into a category. The truth is that the lines are grey for many - some people are asexual or gay or bisexual or whatever - sometimes this changes - for example, someone without a marked preference might find a compatible partner of a specific gender and identify a specific way as a result. Some of us are not so definable.
I note that if an element of permanence is required you could truly never be labelled "childfree" until death. I would suggest that, at this point, it would be respectful to permit an individual to self-identify, just like with gender as the complicated interweavings of socialization, biology, and psychology do not always lend themselves to labelling by others.
Maybe you're not familiar with the movement, but the ENTIRE PURPOSE of "Childfree", the reason it exists in the first place, is to differentiate us from the "I want kids but can't have them" and "I have no clue what I want" people.
It's really irritating to have people use the term incorrectly. Reminds me of people who are "vegetarian" but eat chicken, fish, and pork (the other white meat) - just represent yourself for what you are. There's a term for what you were, and it's "fence sitter". Not a bad thing, but not childfree.
Except that I wasn't a "fence sitter". I get to define my experience, not you. I did not want children by choice.
Changing your mind is part of free will. And "the movement", like any movement, has a radical element that is required to spur needed social change imo. People who feel oppressed or discriminated against rise up in solidarity and push back with black and white fervor. Every movement in my lifetime has worked like this that I can recall - including feminism.
What you may not realize is that a dogmatic and radical approach to people who support your choices is alienating and obscures other's truths. There is oppression in every movement that requires you to fit within the rules.
In addition, those who are on the grey zone are excluded - those of us who may change are mind are "not part of the group". The "stats are all false and only relate to those who have already have children or who were really fence sitters all along". The truth is the stats are what they are: stats. Some who are sterilized will regret it. A minority, but they exist. Would you devalue their lived experience?
You may feel you are part of a "movement" that requires permanent choices and being pro-sterilization. My response is that you are part of a subgroup that does not own the definition of "childfree" and it feels like you are using your righteousness as a tool to control my reality.
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Um, I'm childfree and pretty adamantly so, and I've never once given serious thought to sterilization. I don't want to under go a no-insignificant medical procedure when there are plenty of other methods of preventing children.
I think the notion that one isn't serious about being CFCB if she isn't sterilized, or that we are somehow less committed, or whatever it is you are asserting, is pretty silly.
I don't want kids. I never have and I never will. I am childfree. My assumptive ability to conceive has nothing to do with that.
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This is starting to remind of the internet retirement police MMM posts about. I wanted to post but as the thread progressed, I felt more uncomfortable about it given some of the strong views expressed about what the criteria for child free by choice are and whether one might properly share thoughts on the topic if one has not been unwavering in one's choice. But then, I thought fuck it, if MMM is retired, then I am child free by choice.
For a long time, I adamantly and resolutely did not want children. When I was a teenager, I did think about getting sterilized but never shared that thought out loud, because I felt I would never be taken seriously.
I remained firm in my desire to NOT have children for some time, well into my 20s.
Then, late in my 20s, I thought I *did* want to have and raise a child (or children) with my partner at the time. But the timing was just never right between us. We broke up when I was in mid-30s and hadn't had children. And I did feel a loss at the time, thinking it was unlikely that I would be able to find a good relationship in which to have and raise a child.
Sure enough, I partnered up with a man much my senior. He didn't already have children and thought it was pretty late in the game to have some now. He might have indulged me in having a child if I'd insisted but, on a balance of probabilities, I have decided that I would rather not try to have a child than to try to do so. So I consider that a choice not to have children and therefore that I am child free by choice. I will be 40 this month so it is very, very likely that I will never have children.
So at this point in my life, I am comfortable with my choice not to have had children because I do think it was the overall best option for me. But I was not the only option I considered throughout my procreative years. I am somewhat different from the original poster and other here because I have pondered the option of having children more seriously than those who have known all along they didn't want any and remained unwavering in that knowledge but I nonetheless consider myself to have chosen not to have children (and, ergo, to be childfree by choice).
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I am also child-free and intend to remain so. I don't like children, never have, have zero maternal instinct. I always figured I would start wanting them when I got older but the opposite has happened - I dislike children more now than ever. That said, I love animals, so I am a typical crazy dog lady.
My ex wanted kids and I was never sure how we would handle the issue when the push comes to shove. Fortunately (?) we broke up for other reasons before that point. And I sighed with relief because it resolved my dilemma once and for all. I am quite happy to remain single and child-free... I have this conviction that most guys my age do want to have kids and it would be too difficult an issue to navigate, so admittedly I don't bother with dating etc.
Does anyone remember the movie Man Overboard with Goldie Hawn? That is my biggest nightmare - waking up one morning to find myself a mother of 2 or 3 kids. I had a nightmare once that I was pregnant... I woke up absolutely terrified - it's the fear of losing my freedom, I think. That, and the fear of having to listed to the fucking Dora the Explorer for the rest of my life like my childey friends.
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When people ask if we have kids, I always answer..."No, we've been very careful."
haha, totally stealing that.
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And fair comment is free speech and is not trolling.
There was no intention to offend, if you re-read my posts you may see that. Maybe not as you appear to be offended simply by having someone who is not child-free post here, which appears discriminatory on its face and is definitely exclusionary. The discussion arose from the comments and, in my view, was both relevant and informative - I learned some things from others, including Zikoris who I disagreed with on some points, which I appreciated.
Disagreement and differences should not require rejection. If you want a closed discussion that you control on this topic this is not the site for it.
You may wish to review the rules of this site which are:
"The overriding principle here on this site: Be a human being and treat others respectfully.
That includes, but is not limited to:
1. Don't be a jerk.
2. Attack an argument, not a person.
3. Your posts must not break any laws.
4. Be respectful of the site and other members.
5. No spam.
While we encourage open discourse, enforcement of the above rules will be done solely at the moderators' discretion. If you have any questions, feel free to PM a moderator."
Your remedy if you believe the behaviour to be "trolling" or contrary to the rules is to PM the moderator.
I would note that what you are doing in calling me a troll appears to be name-calling and a personal attack.
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You seem a bit over-focussed on my comments. You are reading an intention into my posts that simply does not exist, which is sometimes easy to do online. Perhaps if you stopped asking me questions the thread might naturally take a turn more to your liking.
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1. Don't be a jerk/
This.
I do agree with you that "child-free" does not require sterilisation. Your point is now on the record of this thread. I don't think you need to repeat it again.
I don't understand (but don't need you to try to explain) why you ever felt the need to tell your personal story about not being child-free in what was started, and I would have liked to have become, a safe space for the child-free (however defined). Nothing said here can "control your reality": you do not need to post on this thread to protect your personal right to procreate.
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Totoro, it seems like you're being antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic. And I'm confused why you keep referencing freedom of speech. I wasn't aware the government was trying to limit your speech in this thread.
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I'm not sure whether I should continue to reply or not but:
1. I was interested in the topic because I never wanted children and I strongly support this as a choice.
2. My feelings changed later in life in a manner I would not have predicted at 20.
3. I posted only in response to the comments on very early sterilization, not on being childfree.
4. Had I undergone early sterilization it would have been extremely expensive and difficult later. I quite likely would have regretted it for a period of time and spent money trying to fix it. I would have ended up happy without children too, but there would have been unnecessary angst and cost and I value the fact that I did not have to go through this.
5. My comments were never aimed at changing anyone's mind about being and remaining childfree, they were aimed at raising awareness of the possibility of later regret with early sterilization given my experience and the the stats that show this occurs at a statistically significant rate. My intention was to raise a real life example of the possibility that minds can change when decisions are made at a very young age while recognizing that, for the majority, this will not be the case. My concern was someone who was like me reading this thread at 20 and feeling encouraged to go ahead with a permanent decision. I believe this could occur.
6. Free speech was mentioned as I was told if I was not child-free I should not be here and that only people who wanted sterilization at an early age were really childfree and my former decision not to have children wasn't relevant. This set up a subsequent debate on that. Perhaps an attempt to censor would have been more a more accurate description.
To be clear, I support those who are childfree by choice and recognize it is a permanent choice for the majority of those who make the decision, and a vehement preference for many posting here.
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Childfree by choice. Want children less as I get older.
When I was younger I thought I'd want children, and I'm not sterilized, so many by some people's definitions I am childless as opposed to childfree. Don't know. Don't care. Not really a fan of labels.
Just wanted to say I appreciate this discussion and thank you totoro for your participation. I'm not sure why the others are finding your comments hostile, but I've learned a lot from the discussion.
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I didn't see that the majority were annoyed by you simply posting here. For me personally, it seemed that after your initial post, you were determined to "prove" to OP that most CFBC would regret it. That is, of course, a potential event, and it is natural to occasionally mourn the road not taken. When OP tried to explain that she had intended the thread to be a sort of meeting ground for the CFBC, you started quoting forum rules at her and it seemed very condescending from my point of view. I'm not the emperor of the internet, but but if I were in OP's place I would be very annoyed by the way you interacting.
I agree with you that medical sterilization is only loosely related to the overall discussion, and doesn't alone signal the decision to be CFBC.
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Does anyone remember the movie Man Overboard with Goldie Hawn? That is my biggest nightmare - waking up one morning to find myself a mother of 2 or 3 kids. I had a nightmare once that I was pregnant... I woke up absolutely terrified - it's the fear of losing my freedom, I think. That, and the fear of having to listed to the fucking Dora the Explorer for the rest of my life like my childey friends.
LOL! When I first saw it I remember wondering how people could possibly think that was a cute movie. The female lead was kidnapped, held under false pretenses, and manipulated into taking care of a pack of obnoxious kids. Yeah, that's "cute."
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I didn't see that the majority were annoyed by you simply posting here. For me personally, it seemed that after your initial post, you were determined to "prove" to OP that most CFBC would regret it. That is, of course, a potential event, and it is natural to occasionally mourn the road not taken. When OP tried to explain that she had intended the thread to be a sort of meeting ground for the CFBC, you started quoting forum rules at her and it seemed very condescending from my point of view. I'm not the emperor of the internet, but but if I were in OP's place I would be very annoyed by the way you interacting.
I agree with you that medical sterilization is only loosely related to the overall discussion, and doesn't alone signal the decision to be CFBC.
No. That was never my intention and nothing I posted stated or supported that "most CFBC will regret it". Nothing. in fact, the stats I posted support the opposite conclusion for the vast majority.
As far as quoting the forum rules, my intention there was not to be condescending but to let her know that she could contact a moderator but that calling me a troll was perhaps in breach of those rules.
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So, my husband is getting snipped soonish (most likely about a year out, but I'm researching ahead and I currently have an I.U.D.), and I'm pondering whether I should continue taking hormonal birth control or not. As far as I see it, there are some benefits (reduced risk of some cancers, reduced period associated nastiness, etc) and some draw backs (increased risk of some cancers, increased risk of deep vein thrombosis, etc). I don't personally want to get sterilized because I really don't like medical procedures and I don't see the need when my husband is getting snipped.
Has anybody had this choice? Any suggestions?
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I'm not sure whether I should continue to reply or not but:
1. I was interested in the topic because I never wanted children and I strongly support this as a choice.
2. My feelings changed later in life in a manner I would not have predicted at 20.
3. I posted only in response to the comments on very early sterilization, not on being childfree.
4. Had I undergone early sterilization it would have been extremely expensive and difficult later. I quite likely would have regretted it for a period of time and spent money trying to fix it. I would have ended up happy without children too, but there would have been unnecessary angst and cost and I value the fact that I did not have to go through this.
5. My comments were never aimed at changing anyone's mind about being and remaining childfree, they were aimed at raising awareness of the possibility of later regret with early sterilization given my experience and the the stats that show this occurs at a statistically significant rate. My intention was to raise a real life example of the possibility that minds can change when decisions are made at a very young age while recognizing that, for the majority, this will not be the case. My concern was someone who was like me reading this thread at 20 and feeling encouraged to go ahead with a permanent decision. I believe this could occur.
6. Free speech was mentioned as I was told if I was not child-free I should not be here and that only people who wanted sterilization at an early age were really childfree and my former decision not to have children wasn't relevant. This set up a subsequent debate on that. Perhaps an attempt to censor would have been more a more accurate description.
To be clear, I support those who are childfree by choice and recognize it is a permanent choice for the majority of those who make the decision, and a vehement preference for many posting here.
If I popped in to a "Let's discuss the great things about parenthood" thread to remind people that they might later regret choosing to have kids, how do you think that would be received? And would you maybe wonder why the heck I felt the need to post that? My concern would just be that someone at age 20 might make a permanent choice they might regret, so it would be okay, right?
That's that you've done here. I have no issues with a parent posting in this thread. But what you've posted is pretty off-putting.
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Probably getting the snip sometime this year. Probably not absolutely necessary because my wife knows her fertility cycle and tracks it scientifically with thermometer and a neat little chart... but still, our current methods restrict our "fun time" a little too much for our liking. I really don't want my wife having a risky procedures when a vasectomy is comparably simple - the thought of it still gives me the heebie jeebies though.
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If I popped in to a "Let's discuss the great things about parenthood" thread to remind people that they might later regret choosing to have kids, how do you think that would be received? And would you maybe wonder why the heck I felt the need to post that? My concern would just be that someone at age 20 might make a permanent choice they might regret, so it would be okay, right?
I personally would welcome your comments if you have relevant stats or if you had personally had a child and regretted the choice - and were respectful in your tone. The fact that your experience might have been different from mine does not make it less valuable.
My view is that parenting is also a choice and that people should think long and hard about it before making the decision. Even more, I believe there should be much more in the way of parenting education. There are many downsides to this choice.
There probably are quite a number of people who had children but really would have preferred to remain childfree. I'm pretty sure we all know some.
Had the option of remaining childfree or searching out a compatible partner been accepted by others or even raised as a positive and viable option, they may well have made other choices.
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Had the option of remaining childfree or searching out a compatible partner been accepted by others or even raised as a positive and viable option, they may well have made other choices.
+1
I mentioned my story before. If I would have seen childfree as a viable choice and accepted by society instead of constantly being asked when I was getting married and having kids, I would have had a much smoother ride through my teenage years and my 20s.
My niece has the same medical issue I do and she also found out as an early teenager. I've tried to tell her that adoption is an option, but that she should also consider being childfree as there are a lot of advantages.
I was the first in my family to encounter this infertility so it was a shock to me and took me a long time to accept. I figure it's my duty to help guide my niece on her options. She seems to be handling it a lot better than I did!
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So, my husband is getting snipped soonish (most likely about a year out, but I'm researching ahead and I currently have an I.U.D.), and I'm pondering whether I should continue taking hormonal birth control or not. As far as I see it, there are some benefits (reduced risk of some cancers, reduced period associated nastiness, etc) and some draw backs (increased risk of some cancers, increased risk of deep vein thrombosis, etc). I don't personally want to get sterilized because I really don't like medical procedures and I don't see the need when my husband is getting snipped.
Has anybody had this choice? Any suggestions?
I continued taking birth control for about a six months after my husband's vasectomy to ensure no accidental pregnancies. After that I didn't use it. If you plan to be polyamorous or plan to swing or something like that, you will, of course want to keep up with the birth control. Otherwise, why add the chemicals to your body if you don't need to? If you have painful periods or other medical problems that you are using birth control for, of course you should take it. Otherwise, why?
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So, my husband is getting snipped soonish (most likely about a year out, but I'm researching ahead and I currently have an I.U.D.), and I'm pondering whether I should continue taking hormonal birth control or not. As far as I see it, there are some benefits (reduced risk of some cancers, reduced period associated nastiness, etc) and some draw backs (increased risk of some cancers, increased risk of deep vein thrombosis, etc). I don't personally want to get sterilized because I really don't like medical procedures and I don't see the need when my husband is getting snipped.
Has anybody had this choice? Any suggestions?
I had to stop hormonal birth control, so went to be sterilised (husband couldn't have vasectomy). The were reasons for me stopping it, the first is I have a tumour in my leg which has affects the circulation there (increasing risk of blood clots), the second is I've been on it for more than 20 years, and recently I've noticed changes in mood and absence of a withdrawal bleed which I found unsettling.
The pro to stopping, well, obviously reduced risk of clots is high on the list. I also have noticed improved mood and an improved libido. As for cons, instead of 4 days of a light bleed I have 2 days of "oh my god" with some pain (very manageable) and 3 days of not much. My skin has gone to hell in my opinion (spots, but I'm wondering if that will balance out), but other people have said I look generally perkier. As for cancer, my end result would differ from yours, since I had my fallopian tubes removed I've drastically reduced the risk of ovarian cancer.
Just mentally though, I feel a bit better taking 1 less medication, having one less reason to go to a doctor and not messing around with my body in that fashion.
Don't know if that helps, but it's my 2 cents.
As for some of the other discussion on this thread, pretty much any conversation regarding being childfree is going to include someone who says they changed their mind, look how wonderful life is for them now and are we sure we're not missing out.
To me this is sometimes motivated by them not wanting other people to miss out on something good they've tried (reminds me of my Grandma "What do you mean you don't like broad beans?? You just haven't had them cooked well, you'd love them"), sometimes it's also motivated by them having made a different choice that they're still trying to justify to other people ("see, this is why I changed my mind, and I was right, so you should do it too"). Whatever the reason though, no matter how innocent and genuinely well meaning the person saying it is, when you've had your choice questioned for the thousandth time it can grate.
And sometimes a child-free persons reaction to this can seem out of proportion, but it can be a case of the straw breaking the camels back. I've been told I'll change my mind, I'm selfish, I'll never know *REAL* love unless I do, I'm evil (that was interesting), it'd be different if it was my own, I'm unnatural, I'll regret it, I'm missing out on the experience, I'll never know self-sacrifice, I'm not a real woman, I'm not achieving my true purpose, I'm failing the economy.... etc. So that one innocent comment comes in that particular context, where a childfree person having been attacked previously feels they have to be constantly on the defensive.
As for my personal definition of childfree, I don't include the necessity of surgery, but I'd say if hypothetically someone could give you a one off tablet that had no side effects but could guarantee you'd never conceive would you take it? If you could answer yes, that to me is childfree, anything else is a bit on the fence (my opinion only).
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MOD NOTE:
I thought I was clear earlier.
Late me state it again. Anyone is free to post their opinion in here. You are free to disagree with that opinion, politely. You are not free to continually, rudely, insist they have no right to an opinion.
This is especially true after a warning was issued by a moderator; temporary bans have been issued.
Please stop it, and get back on topic.
Thank you.
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I am single, female, and child free. I guess I always felt on the fringe, different, and couldn't ever see myself married and a mom. I think I would be a good mom, but instead got to be a pretty good aunt to several nieces and nephews. I also did a stint as a social worker, and worked primarily with kids.
I find that being single and child free at my age (early 50s) has its challenges, in that it's so "not normal". Hence, I still feel that I am on the fringe and different.
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Ninety Four, I also never saw myself as married or a mother. I never dreamt of the perfect wedding or picked out names for potential future children... yes, sometimes it feels like I was born without some crucial feminine gene...
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Glad to have the company, Pants. Thanks.
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Ninety Four, I also never saw myself as married or a mother. I never dreamt of the perfect wedding or picked out names for potential future children... yes, sometimes it feels like I was born without some crucial feminine gene...
I have some similarities here. I never saw myself as a mom or a wife. I never dreamed of a perfect wedding or wedding dress etc. In my 20's and 30's I struggled along in really bad relationships.
In my early 40's I decided I wanted a partner and fortunately, was finally healthy enough to make a good choice and so met my husband.
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Ninety Four, I also never saw myself as married or a mother. I never dreamt of the perfect wedding or picked out names for potential future children... yes, sometimes it feels like I was born without some crucial feminine gene...
It's funny that you say this, because I have heard a LOT of women say something similar. Which means to me that the idea of what "feminine" behavior is isn't encoded in genes at all -- it's a performative process that many of us feel like we don't/aren't able to conform to.
I think it's awesome that so many women no longer connect with these old ideas of what it means to be a woman. Those ideas need to change anyway! So let's change em.
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Childfree and plan to stay that way. I've never really liked kids or felt the need to have them. This week, I've been hanging out with my boyfriend's family for the holidays and his twin sister has a 4 month old. This has been the most consecutive time that I have spent around an infant, and I feel stronger than ever that I really don't want kids. I just don't feel that maternal instinct or whatever.
I'm only 24, and the pressure is already flowing in from family and friends about marriage and babies. No thanks.
It's nice to read about other's experiences who have chosen this lifestyle. I hope to be the "cool Aunt" someday. :)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx8S9AKb_oM
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Nice one Vern! Almost makes me want to book my vasectomy tomorrow!
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I'm not sure whether I should continue to reply or not but:
1. I was interested in the topic because I never wanted children and I strongly support this as a choice.
2. My feelings changed later in life in a manner I would not have predicted at 20.
3. I posted only in response to the comments on very early sterilization, not on being childfree.
4. Had I undergone early sterilization it would have been extremely expensive and difficult later. I quite likely would have regretted it for a period of time and spent money trying to fix it. I would have ended up happy without children too, but there would have been unnecessary angst and cost and I value the fact that I did not have to go through this.
5. My comments were never aimed at changing anyone's mind about being and remaining childfree, they were aimed at raising awareness of the possibility of later regret with early sterilization given my experience and the the stats that show this occurs at a statistically significant rate. My intention was to raise a real life example of the possibility that minds can change when decisions are made at a very young age while recognizing that, for the majority, this will not be the case. My concern was someone who was like me reading this thread at 20 and feeling encouraged to go ahead with a permanent decision. I believe this could occur.
6. Free speech was mentioned as I was told if I was not child-free I should not be here and that only people who wanted sterilization at an early age were really childfree and my former decision not to have children wasn't relevant. This set up a subsequent debate on that. Perhaps an attempt to censor would have been more a more accurate description.
To be clear, I support those who are childfree by choice and recognize it is a permanent choice for the majority of those who make the decision, and a vehement preference for many posting here.
If I popped in to a "Let's discuss the great things about parenthood" thread to remind people that they might later regret choosing to have kids, how do you think that would be received? And would you maybe wonder why the heck I felt the need to post that? My concern would just be that someone at age 20 might make a permanent choice they might regret, so it would be okay, right?
That's that you've done here. I have no issues with a parent posting in this thread. But what you've posted is pretty off-putting.
I actually think that would be a good thing - if it were one respectfully and with a "this has been my experience or my opinion". I would imagine that there are childless people that are on the fence regarding kids who would be reading that thread and it would be eye opening for them to hear some real life stories about people who haven't found having children to be "The Great and All Encompassing Joy" it's often made out to be. They may see that a childfree life can be just as rewarding as a childfilled one.
Posting that there are other choices is a good thing. Of course. That's different, to me, than telling people, in a thread meant for those who have made a choice, that they might regret their choice, and not acknowledging that any choice might later be regretted, thus imply that one choice is more risky or somehow lessor.
Totoro wasn't posting that s/he didn't have kids and regretted it. S/he wasn't sharing his experience at having made a choice and regretted it (which is not the same as changing one's mind and doing something different).
That's why I said I had no issue with parents posting here. Someone who wants to offer a perspective on what they've experienced is great. Expressing concern over the choice of others, based on nothing but one's own differing feelings, is what feels off-putting and condescending. "Oh, I'm so concerned for you that you are going to regret this."
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I'm surprised that so many people here have friends and family with children .I have lots of friends and family with no children it's not a big deal.
I suppose part of that is that we have a lot of gay friends. Also people without children tend to congregate in our neighborhood in an urban core where schools are not an issue
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I got married when I was 31 and Mr. Mandalay was 42. We were fairly sure we wanted kids, but as time went on we always found a reason to put it off, usually financial. About three years after we were married I saw down and really thought hard about the whole thing. Why did I want kids? Because that's what was expected of me? Because I really, really wanted to be a mother? And it turned out ... I didn't. I went to Mr. Mandalay and said "would it really bother you if I told you I don't want kids?" He was like OH THANK GOD and got snipped the following month.
For the record, I am childfree but Mr. Mandalay is not--he has an adult daughter from a previous marriage, but they have no relationship.
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There’s a lot of pros and cons to not having kids. And Even more pros and cons to having them!!
I totally understand and respect those who don’t have children. Unless they turn into sanctimonious pricks about being kid free. That I cannot abide. Mind you there’s plenty of parents who turn into sanctimonious pricks over their precious darlings as well.
And what is it with people who don’t have kids but then have a dog as a baby substitute and pamper it like it was a small spoilt child?? That I seriously don’t get.
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I think we all just have to do what we have to make our short lives AWESOME. For some, that means offspring. For others, like my wife and I, our IDEAL life does not include children of our own.
I shake my head when I see people get riled up on forums when this topic comes up. Perhaps it is based on envy of one group towards the other, I don't know... whatever it is, it disappoints me when I read it.
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I think we all just have to do what we have to make our short lives AWESOME. For some, that means offspring. For others, like my wife and I, our IDEAL life does not include children of our own.
I shake my head when I see people get riled up on forums when this topic comes up. Perhaps it is based on envy of one group towards the other, I don't know... whatever it is, it disappoints me when I read it.
Agreed. I don't understand why emotions run so high when it comes to having kids.
Do what makes you happy, have the maturity to listen to dissenting opinions, consider if those ideas have value to you and after, still go right ahead and do what makes you happy. No need for anyone to feel insulted by somebody who has a different viewpoint.
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We have no children by choice.
It's a huge part of the reason we are financially independent.
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We have no children by choice.
It's a huge part of the reason we are financially independent.
Probably our BIGGEST reason. Started a chain of financial events that helped us FIRE in a ten year whirlwind of saving and investing.
I don't feel any desire to boast about this to any parents who may be struggling with aspects of child rearing...I respect parents big time...just don't want to be one.
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Maybe you're not familiar with the movement, but the ENTIRE PURPOSE of "Childfree", the reason it exists in the first place, is to differentiate us from the "I want kids but can't have them" and "I have no clue what I want" people.
It's really irritating to have people use the term incorrectly. Reminds me of people who are "vegetarian" but eat chicken, fish, and pork (the other white meat) - just represent yourself for what you are. There's a term for what you were, and it's "fence sitter". Not a bad thing, but not childfree.
Married at 23 & 24, people stopped saying we'd change our minds when we were around 30. We didn't (and don't) want kids, and it seems like wanting them sure oughtta be a precondition of having them.
As far as being vegetarian goes - people very often say "you're vegetarian, right?" because they can't remember what I eat. Now instead of saying "I eat poultry and fish," I say "I don't eat four-legged animals." That seems to take hold a little better ;)
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Coming out of lurkdom to say my husband and I are childfree by choice. We married when I was 27 and he was 32. I had told him before we married that I didn't think I wanted kids. He said no problem, he just wanted to be with me (awwww!!!). I absolutely believe he would have had kids if he had of married someone else. He would be a great father too.
Around the time I turned 30 I was really giving it a lot of thought. Of course everyone around me seemed to be having kids and I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a mistake. I read lots of books and did some soul searching, but it just never felt right. My husband agrees with me. I am 38 and my husband is 43 now. We do occasionally talk about it especially as I'm getting older but it would have to be something that I woke up really really wanting and I just don't.
I do sometimes question myself, as I know several families that have great kids and are great parents. I know how much fulfillment the parents get out of parenting. I think my husband and I would be good parents. I do wonder what our elderly years might look like but as we know, there is no guarantee that kids would be there for you either.
By the way, I have a non-hormonal IUD that is good for 10 years. I wouldn't choose sterilization because I'm really uncomfortable with doctors/medical procedures, etc.
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My DH and I are child-free and happy with our decision. I switched from hormonal birth control to an IUD last year.
And what is it with people who don’t have kids but then have a dog as a baby substitute and pamper it like it was a small spoilt child?? That I seriously don’t get.
This is me. I don't really care if people "get" it. I love my dog.
My dog has her picture taken with Santa every year. She has a Halloween costume and went trick-or-treating last year. My schedule revolves around walks and dog parks. I know there are a lot of things that people would consider crazy, but I find completely normal now.
Good for you...I wouldn't care less what other people thought either.
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Well, dogs *are* much nicer than children. :P
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Childless by choice.
My mother still asks me who will look after me in my old age. I look at her. She tells me of friends whose children have stolen their money - one friend was diagnosed with dementia, the child sold the house and used up all the money on a trip to Europe (there must have been other things as the house was worth half a million), and then it was discovered that she didn't have dementia, but she had nowhere to live and no money! Not to mention the parents whose children never learn to be independent, and always expect more money from their parents.
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Yes, I also have never had the desire to have children . It's not too common where I live either & when I meet likeminded individuals, we to tend to bond over this. Later, when I settle down I would like some kitties to keep me and a SO company though .:)
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great idea for a post by the way. I got the impression most of the folks on here have children
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On happiness and being childfree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwQFSc9mHyA&feature=youtu.be&t=12m50s. I think I'll find my transcendent moments elsewhere.
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On happiness and being childfree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwQFSc9mHyA&feature=youtu.be&t=12m50s. I think I'll find my transcendent moments elsewhere.
Thank you for sharing!
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This is in response to those to believe a true "child-fee" person must want to be sterilized. No. Not at all. I am 31 and have never had the desire to have kids. I've been married and in other relationships that lasted several years. Neither of us wanted kids. Yet it has never crossed my mind to be sterilized. And I am sexually active.
I also don't think of myself as "child-free" or "childless". I am just me, an individual living life as I choose . And my life is very rich :)
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No kids for me. I just want to be the eccentric rich aunt :D
Exactly!
:D
When I was in high school I thought I'd want kids eventually. I think it was because that was what I was supposed to want according to culture. But it never happened and the older I get the less I want to have them. Since I was 18 I always said maybe I'd want to have kids in another 5 years... but not yet. By the time I hit 30 I started to rethink the idea completely since I had no real desire for kids. Then I used to worry I'd eventually regret not having kids when I was older. Now that's no longer a concern. :)
I'm leaning towards this camp. 29, and really thinking I just don't want kids. I like kids, but I really like giving them back to their parents. We'll see, but nothing's made me change my mind yet.
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Me.
I wanted children for about five minutes sometime in April, 2007.
I have never regretted the choice not to have kids.
I did, however, marry a man who has two daughters from a previous marriage. So, hey, bonus, in a way. I'm training for a triathlon with the older one at the moment.
I thank the fates that I live at a time that has allowed me to make the choices that are right for me. I occsionally get some judgment from others. But, you know what? Fuck people who need to pronounce their opinions about my life.
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I adore children and I desperately wanted kids but my dh did not. Now, years later, I feel such relief not to be dealing with all the issues of parenting. I see friends with adult kids who are draining their bank accounts, who are keeping them awake with worry due to mental illnesses, who are unable to get a job and live at home, etc. etc. etc.
To tell you the truth after years of feeling like I missed out on the greatest joy of my life it is nice to let that belief go and to feel some relief. I know that the money we have saved would have been decimated if we had had kids (because of our lifestyle until recently) and I know that the personal growth we have experienced would have been put on hold and our addictions would probably be running the house.
I say this not because I think having kids creates all of this for everyone, but because of our own set of issues. We have been able to spend time parenting ourselves, spend money seeing therapists and focus time on recovering from our childhood traumas to some degree because of not having kids.
Because I do not have teens right now I can devote more time to my elderly relatives without feeling torn and stressed. Once again not because it is a given that one cannot do both well, but because I get overwhelmed and crippled with anxiety very easily.
I would love to have grands, and hope to adopt some soon.
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Happily child free, 28 and SO 24. We are on the same page. We want to FIRE in ~12 years an travel the world extensively.
I will be a god father mid April of this year, and maybe my brother will have kids. I am totally fine being a cool uncle or god father but certainly do not want any of my own.
This may change one day, I am not one to say NEVER about anything.
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Another "childfree by choice" person here...as is my long term SO. We met in our 20's and neither of us had a desire for children...still feel that way in our 40's. Our decision was not based on financial reasons, just lack of interest in raising children.
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This is such an interesting thread! I wouldn't classify myself as child-free (though I definitely contemplated this when in HS). Pretty ambivalent about kids, but my husband wants them, so we've reached the mutual decision to have one (but that's at least 5+ years in the future - with caveat that you can't predict the future). I think I would have chosen not to have children under different circumstances. If my husband were to change his mind (which he already has, from wanting to have like 5 kids - that was a declaration that didn't have much thought behind it), I would be amenable to that. I think I'm less attached to the idea of family being the strongest bond, since I'm an immigrant with nobody but immediate family in this country (as far as family goes), so friends are hugely important to me and definitely more important for day-to-day well-being than family.
Have you guys found that being child-free is distributed equally across sexes? At my age (25) it seems like most of my female friends have given great though to whether to have kids, philosophically, with some subsequently not as into it, or definitely not wanting any. On the other hand, most of my male friends are interested in having kids at some point (but maybe that's a function of the cultural default + not giving it much thought?). Curious what others have observed at various ages.
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Yup, me. I'm 48, never wanted kids, have never regretted not having them.
Then I met my husband, who has two kids from his first marriage. So, now I'm a stepmom. Which has been mostly a good experience, so in a way I get the best of both worlds.
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Such an interesting thread. Disclaimer, I have one DD, born when I was 39, after getting married at 22. Just a little gap there. There was a lot of ambivalence, times when I wanted and he didn't, times when he wanted and I didn't, then we looked at our lives and both wanted and went for it. And retroactively I was so thankful for birth control - without it I would have had 10 children, I get pregnant so easily (only 2 months trying at 38). There are advantages and disadvantages to having one (I knew we were allowed just one, long before MMM posted). There are advantages and disadvantages to have them late (I was at least 10 years older than the mothers of my DD's friends). And there are advantages and disadvantages to never having them.
There are times I look at people with 3 or more and see how much that choice has affected their lives, and the planet, and wonder about their choice. But it is their choice. Some of them have commented on my only - but it was my choice, and she is a capable, social, accomplished adult. And did we get comments all those Dink years.
So, bravo to knowing yourselves well enough that you have made the right choice for you!
Dinarik, I think women think about it more because we are the ones doing the pregnancy and the ones more socially expected to make more changes in our lives re childcare. Not to mention the ticking clock. Men mostly don't realize that their ages can also affect the baby.
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Childfree by choice and so is my partner. We're 29 and 38. I never pictured myself having kids, although I can admit I occasionally daydream about how cute our children would look like and what an awesome father my partner would be. But it stops there, because it's not real life, and daily life with kids is not the life I want. I gladly embrace being an aunt and I think I'm a good role model for my nieces and nephews. I just don't wish to deal with parenting, but I can get involved another way, by being someone they can rely on or because I live a lifestyle that might inspire them when they get older.
I unfortunately faced harsh criticism a few times in my life because I said I didn't wish to have kids, and strangely enough it was mostly from men (telling me I'm selfish, I'm useless, my life is meaningless, I'm a cold-hearted b*tch, etc). From women, the comments I hear are almost exclusively about my age (you're young, you'll change your mind). Or they commiserate on how they used to say they didn't want kids when they were my age : in other words, they think not wanting kinds = being immature.
Thankfully, I've also discussed with many open-minded people who support our choice and fully accept the fact there are different paths to happiness and that being childfree can be one of them.
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Extremely happily child free.
Never wanted any, never will, and will never regret my decision (yes I am old enough to know that).
What I really hate are the comments on "it's such a waste that someone like you (good genes / healthy / smart / redhead) doesn't pass that along".
*grr* ... (deleted rant)
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Child free by choice and largely happy with the decision.
I have nephews I love dearly. I also enjoy friends' kids when I see them at church, at school, or in social settings. I would say I get a "kick" out of kids -- like when they say something funny, or when they do something new, or I sometimes find them fascinating to observe to see how their minds work and am in awe of the developing mind. Kids are fun to josh around with. But I realize that when I'm in these settings with them I'm mostly seeing the good parts. But it's nice to go home without them.
But, taking an intellectual fascination in something is quite different from parenting, and I realized that a long time ago. I'm sure some people think we're nuts, but they've stayed mum on the topic. We've not been pressured by our families. As I approach midlife I see how it has made a difference in how much we socialize and who with. It has made a huge difference in FI. It has allowed us freedom to travel and pursue things at midlife that others can't. I think I would have found parenting quite stressful.
Even most of my friends who have kids would say they can't really count on their kids taking care of them in old age. Some kids are not capable (for whatever reason). Or they live at a distance. Some kids are just assholes. (Some parents are too.) Things happen and you can't rely on it.
As in all things, what might be my bliss might be another's boredom. There are times I'm curious (again, kind of the "scientist" mentally) about what any kids my DH and I may have had might have looked like and what their personalities might have been... but I kind of put it up there with the other things you wonder about. What if I'd married the first guy? What if I'd moved to a different city? That sort of thing... The truth is -- as Cat Stevens once sang, "There are a million ways to be..."
Just don't ever say my husband and I aren't a "family." That gets under my skin. Last time I checked we're both children, aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers and cousins... so yes, we are part of a family.
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Even most of my friends who have kids would say they can't really count on their kids taking care of them in old age. Some kids are not capable (for whatever reason). Or they live at a distance. Some kids are just assholes. (Some parents are too.) Things happen and you can't rely on it.
I REALLY hate when someone says to me "but if you don't have kids who's going to take care of you when you get old?" My usual response is "why don't you go to a nursing home and ask the residents when was the last time they saw their kids?" My father deliberately moved to Florida to be close to my oldest sister (his favorite) in the certainty that she would take care of him. He didn't count on her going through a pretty nasty divorce and getting MS. Hello, nursing home.
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Both of us are genetic-offspring-free, however, we are both interested in fostering older children/teens, ever since we heard some statistic about the number of children in our community who are thrown out of their homes because they are gay/lesbian/trans, or pregnant. That though will need to wait until we are finically comfortable.
Similar here (although single). I don't want kids of my own, but fostering is definitely high on my list of possible post-ER plans, and the huge population of homeless queer kids is an issue very close to my heart.
Also, my work touches on aspects of the foster-care system, and I'd like to contribute to it more directly when I have the freedom to do so.
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I'm not saying they have any sort of obligation to, I'm saying that the nature of being childfree leads a person to WANT sterilization. It's an easy and fast procedure with minimal recovery. Lifelong abstinence is not realistic or desirable for the vast majority of people, though it certainly is a viable alternative.
Heteronormative much, yo? I personally practice the most reliable form of birth control: lesbianism.
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YMMV. I tried Lesbianism too. Now we have a little agent of chaos running around and terrorizing the dog.
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YMMV. I tried Lesbianism too. Now we have a little agent of chaos running around and terrorizing the dog.
Ha, okay, not ENTIRELY foolproof ;)
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The thing I'm genuinely curious about is why people consider being childfree as "selfish." I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't see the logic of that comment.
I've worked in childcare/youth services for many years, enjoy young people and respect parents enormously. What I've noticed is that most kids don't have enough non-parent adults in their life. I wish we had a culture/society that gave kids more access to healthy caring adults - it'd be a wonderful for kids (and parents too!).
Like getgoing and MLKnits, I plan use some of my time in FIRE to support foster kids, especially those who are aging out of the system (often long before they're ready to handle full independence). Here in pre-FIRE, I'm an involved auntie for my best friend and my brother - both single parents (one by choice and one a widower).
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The thing I'm genuinely curious about is why people consider being childfree as "selfish." I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't see the logic of that comment.
Having a kid is pretty phenomenally terrible by any objective measure. I mean, there are occasional good spots thrown in there now and again, but by and large it's more work, more stress, more sleepless nights, more worry, and takes more money. The childfree have decided to live a better life. Naturally, as parents we need to both make ourselves feel that we haven't made a huge mistake. The easiest way to do this is to attack people who have made a different decision. They anger us with their worry free faces, their ability to dine out, their lack of touching another persons poop on a daily basis. So we call them selfish. Please, you have so much. Give us that at least.
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The thing I'm genuinely curious about is why people consider being childfree as "selfish." I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't see the logic of that comment.
Having a kid is pretty phenomenally terrible by any objective measure. I mean, there are occasional good spots thrown in there now and again, but by and large it's more work, more stress, more sleepless nights, more worry, and takes more money. The childfree have decided to live a better life. Naturally, as parents we need to both make ourselves feel that we haven't made a huge mistake. The easiest way to do this is to attack people who have made a different decision. They anger us with their worry free faces, their ability to dine out, their lack of touching another persons poop on a daily basis. So we call them selfish. Please, you have so much. Give us that at least.
lol
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The thing I'm genuinely curious about is why people consider being childfree as "selfish." I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't see the logic of that comment.
Having a kid is pretty phenomenally terrible by any objective measure. I mean, there are occasional good spots thrown in there now and again, but by and large it's more work, more stress, more sleepless nights, more worry, and takes more money. The childfree have decided to live a better life. Naturally, as parents we need to both make ourselves feel that we haven't made a huge mistake. The easiest way to do this is to attack people who have made a different decision. They anger us with their worry free faces, their ability to dine out, their lack of touching another persons poop on a daily basis. So we call them selfish. Please, you have so much. Give us that at least.
Okay, this is a wonderful answer, and it made me laugh.
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The thing I'm genuinely curious about is why people consider being childfree as "selfish." I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't see the logic of that comment.
Having a kid is pretty phenomenally terrible by any objective measure. I mean, there are occasional good spots thrown in there now and again, but by and large it's more work, more stress, more sleepless nights, more worry, and takes more money. The childfree have decided to live a better life. Naturally, as parents we need to both make ourselves feel that we haven't made a huge mistake. The easiest way to do this is to attack people who have made a different decision. They anger us with their worry free faces, their ability to dine out, their lack of touching another persons poop on a daily basis. So we call them selfish. Please, you have so much. Give us that at least.
Okay, this is a wonderful answer, and it made me laugh.
+1!
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Having a kid is pretty phenomenally terrible by any objective measure. I mean, there are occasional good spots thrown in there now and again, but by and large it's more work, more stress, more sleepless nights, more worry, and takes more money. The childfree have decided to live a better life. Naturally, as parents we need to both make ourselves feel that we haven't made a huge mistake. The easiest way to do this is to attack people who have made a different decision. They anger us with their worry free faces, their ability to dine out, their lack of touching another persons poop on a daily basis. So we call them selfish. Please, you have so much. Give us that at least.
LOL
Now I'm going to remember this and involuntarily laugh out loud any time someone calls me selfish. :p
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Guitarstv - you are awesome! Thanks for this
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The thing I'm genuinely curious about is why people consider being childfree as "selfish." I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't see the logic of that comment.
I've worked in childcare/youth services for many years, enjoy young people and respect parents enormously. What I've noticed is that most kids don't have enough non-parent adults in their life. I wish we had a culture/society that gave kids more access to healthy caring adults - it'd be a wonderful for kids (and parents too!).
Like getgoing and MLKnits, I plan use some of my time in FIRE to support foster kids, especially those who are aging out of the system (often long before they're ready to handle full independence). Here in pre-FIRE, I'm an involved auntie for my best friend and my brother - both single parents (one by choice and one a widower).
I'll probably get creamed here in present company for answering, but this sounds like an honest question, so I'll try (despite the previous jokes). If someone gives a reason for not wanting children that focuses on me me me, then it sounds selfish. Go figure! If someone gives an answer that isn't focused completely on themselves, then IMO, it doesn't seem selfish.
IMO, selfish sounding: 1) I want to have complete freedom to do whatever the hell I want and a kid would interfere.
2) I don't want to have to support/consider other people.
IMO, not selfish sounding: 1) I have a calling to do x, and a kid would probably interfere, or it wouldn't be fair to the kid.
2) I don't feel capable of properly supporting/considering other people.
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The thing I'm genuinely curious about is why people consider being childfree as "selfish." I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't see the logic of that comment.
I've worked in childcare/youth services for many years, enjoy young people and respect parents enormously. What I've noticed is that most kids don't have enough non-parent adults in their life. I wish we had a culture/society that gave kids more access to healthy caring adults - it'd be a wonderful for kids (and parents too!).
Like getgoing and MLKnits, I plan use some of my time in FIRE to support foster kids, especially those who are aging out of the system (often long before they're ready to handle full independence). Here in pre-FIRE, I'm an involved auntie for my best friend and my brother - both single parents (one by choice and one a widower).
I'll probably get creamed here in present company for answering, but this sounds like an honest question, so I'll try (despite the previous jokes). If someone gives a reason for not wanting children that focuses on me me me, then it sounds selfish. Go figure! If someone gives an answer that isn't focused completely on themselves, then IMO, it doesn't seem selfish.
IMO, selfish sounding: 1) I want to have complete freedom to do whatever the hell I want and a kid would interfere.
2) I don't want to have to support/consider other people.
IMO, not selfish sounding: 1) I have a calling to do x, and a kid would probably interfere, or it wouldn't be fair to the kid.
2) I don't feel capable of properly supporting/considering other people.
On the other hand, it's impossible to justify having a child without using the words "I" or "we." "I wanted a baby." "We wanted to start a family." And everyone thinks that their child is going to be the president or Bill Gates when more often than not they'll be a corporate middle manager looking at spreadsheets all day.
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I'm not sure I understand why the first two are more selfish than the second. The CF person doesn't owe society a baby. The CF person doesn't owe anything to an unborn (hell, unconceived!) child.
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I think not having kids is no more or less selfish than having them. People tend to frame not having them as selfish, seemingly because it is a choice about the lifestyle one wants for him/herself. But of course, having a kid is the same thing. Most just fail to see that, in a likely attempt to validate their own choice. (Which Guitar touched on in such a great, funny way).
Either choice can be framed as selfish, or as simply self-aware. I really can't think of any argument that actually suggests that having them is in any way less selfish that having them. They are both choices about the best life one imagines for him/herself. I don't see that as any more selfish than on person deciding they want a dog, another a cat, a third a snake, and a fourth no pet at all. Or someone wanting a loft condo and someone else wanting a rural farmhouse. Just lifestyle choices, and generally value neutral. How you enact those choices might start to have moral values one way or the other, but the choices themselves don't.
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I think not having kids is no more or less selfish than having them. People tend to frame not having them as selfish, seemingly because it is a choice about the lifestyle one wants for him/herself. But of course, having a kid is the same thing. Most just fail to see that, in a likely attempt to validate their own choice. (Which Guitar touched on in such a great, funny way).
Either choice can be framed as selfish, or as simply self-aware. I really can't think of any argument that actually suggests that having them is in any way less selfish that having them. They are both choices about the best life one imagines for him/herself. I don't see that as any more selfish than on person deciding they want a dog, another a cat, a third a snake, and a fourth no pet at all. Or someone wanting a loft condo and someone else wanting a rural farmhouse. Just lifestyle choices, and generally value neutral. How you enact those choices might start to have moral values one way or the other, but the choices themselves don't.
How is "I've always imagined myself as a mother" (and similar explanations give for having kids--I think DH will be a great gather, I want to pass on our genes, having a large family is important to me, etc.) any less selfish than, "I like the freedom"? Of course it isn't, even if personal biases want to suggest otherwise.
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Never had an interest in marriage or kids. Child free here.
Mike
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The thing I'm genuinely curious about is why people consider being childfree as "selfish." I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't see the logic of that comment.
I've worked in childcare/youth services for many years, enjoy young people and respect parents enormously. What I've noticed is that most kids don't have enough non-parent adults in their life. I wish we had a culture/society that gave kids more access to healthy caring adults - it'd be a wonderful for kids (and parents too!).
Like getgoing and MLKnits, I plan use some of my time in FIRE to support foster kids, especially those who are aging out of the system (often long before they're ready to handle full independence). Here in pre-FIRE, I'm an involved auntie for my best friend and my brother - both single parents (one by choice and one a widower).
I'll probably get creamed here in present company for answering, but this sounds like an honest question, so I'll try (despite the previous jokes). If someone gives a reason for not wanting children that focuses on me me me, then it sounds selfish. Go figure! If someone gives an answer that isn't focused completely on themselves, then IMO, it doesn't seem selfish.
IMO, selfish sounding: 1) I want to have complete freedom to do whatever the hell I want and a kid would interfere.
2) I don't want to have to support/consider other people.
IMO, not selfish sounding: 1) I have a calling to do x, and a kid would probably interfere, or it wouldn't be fair to the kid.
2) I don't feel capable of properly supporting/considering other people.
On the other hand, it's impossible to justify having a child without using the words "I" or "we." "I wanted a baby." "We wanted to start a family." And everyone thinks that their child is going to be the president or Bill Gates when more often than not they'll be a corporate middle manager looking at spreadsheets all day.
It's a personal decision, so the focus on self is always there. The difference between the two, is one is solely focused on the self, while the other is focused on other things as well.
And really? To have value in the world, you have to be Bill Gates or the President? Really? That means none of us here matter.
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We are childfree by choice as well. Based on my upbringing and some cultural factors, I kind of struggled with the "decision," - maintaining for a long time that I was "50/50" about having kids. In reality, I just needed to give myself permission to (what I thought would) disappoint my folks. They ended up being so supportive. And I have 5 sisters and a brother having babies, so there are always kids around.
There is a book I read as I was mentally/emotionally working through it - Two is Enough. I love it because it has survey data and interviews from almost 200 couples about their decision process, life now, fears (if any), etc. I loved the different perspectives. The author divides the childfree up into 4 categories that I see represented throughout this thread: Early articulators (know early they never want to be a parent), Postponers (who keep putting it off, but ultimately decide they are happy without), Acquiescers (who were neutral, but defaulted to a partner's stance) and Undecided (those who To-Date are childfree by choice but openly state they may go either way in the future). The book is respectful of all and I loved it - not to mention I got to breathe a huge sigh of relief at the end feeling like I no longer "had to" have kids. It took me awhile to verbalize, but now I am happily and respectfully open about it with anyone who asks when the babies are coming. They aren't.
Edit to fix typos, though I surely left some.
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I think not having kids is no more or less selfish than having them. People tend to frame not having them as selfish, seemingly because it is a choice about the lifestyle one wants for him/herself. But of course, having a kid is the same thing. Most just fail to see that, in a likely attempt to validate their own choice. (Which Guitar touched on in such a great, funny way).
Either choice can be framed as selfish, or as simply self-aware. I really can't think of any argument that actually suggests that having them is in any way less selfish that having them. They are both choices about the best life one imagines for him/herself. I don't see that as any more selfish than on person deciding they want a dog, another a cat, a third a snake, and a fourth no pet at all. Or someone wanting a loft condo and someone else wanting a rural farmhouse. Just lifestyle choices, and generally value neutral. How you enact those choices might start to have moral values one way or the other, but the choices themselves don't.
How is "I've always imagined myself as a mother" (and similar explanations give for having kids--I think DH will be a great gather, I want to pass on our genes, having a large family is important to me, etc.) any less selfish than, "I like the freedom"? Of course it isn't, even if personal biases want to suggest otherwise.
+1
And another Childfree by Choice and extrovert here. What is it about age 14 and deciding that you do not want kids? It was around then that I decided no kids for me.
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I'll probably get creamed here in present company for answering, but this sounds like an honest question, so I'll try (despite the previous jokes). If someone gives a reason for not wanting children that focuses on me me me, then it sounds selfish. Go figure! If someone gives an answer that isn't focused completely on themselves, then IMO, it doesn't seem selfish.
IMO, selfish sounding: 1) I want to have complete freedom to do whatever the hell I want and a kid would interfere.
2) I don't want to have to support/consider other people.
IMO, not selfish sounding: 1) I have a calling to do x, and a kid would probably interfere, or it wouldn't be fair to the kid.
2) I don't feel capable of properly supporting/considering other people.
This is the thing I never quite get, though--surely you don't WANT people who don't want kids to have kids?
Isn't it the more selfless choice to say "man, I'd like my one short life on this earth to be about me" and then STICK to it, rather than going "wait, that's selfish, better get pregnant"? Surely it's much more selfish to have a child--a human being who depends completely upon you--unless you're really, really, really sure you both want that and can handle it?
Also, there are 7.5 billion of us, so I tend to think not having kids is pretty selfless from that perspective.
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I'll probably get creamed here in present company for answering, but this sounds like an honest question, so I'll try (despite the previous jokes). If someone gives a reason for not wanting children that focuses on me me me, then it sounds selfish. Go figure! If someone gives an answer that isn't focused completely on themselves, then IMO, it doesn't seem selfish.
IMO, selfish sounding: 1) I want to have complete freedom to do whatever the hell I want and a kid would interfere.
2) I don't want to have to support/consider other people.
IMO, not selfish sounding: 1) I have a calling to do x, and a kid would probably interfere, or it wouldn't be fair to the kid.
2) I don't feel capable of properly supporting/considering other people.
This is the thing I never quite get, though--surely you don't WANT people who don't want kids to have kids?
Isn't it the more selfless choice to say "man, I'd like my one short life on this earth to be about me" and then STICK to it, rather than going "wait, that's selfish, better get pregnant"? Surely it's much more selfish to have a child--a human being who depends completely upon you--unless you're really, really, really sure you both want that and can handle it?
Also, there are 7.5 billion of us, so I tend to think not having kids is pretty selfless from that perspective.
I was only addressing the question about why it may be viewed as selfish. A definition:
self·ish
ˈselfiSH/Submit
adjective
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
So, if the definition applies, then it's selfish. If the definition doesn't apply, then it's not. Now, whether considering being selfish is good or bad in regards to having children is a value judgment. However, once you start considering the welfare of the children in question, or of the planet, then the focus is shifting away from the self. Therefore, once you consider outside factors, it no longer qualifies as selfish. I'm not sure that you could say it's selfless, though, unless you are not considering the self at all in the decision.
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Also, there are 7.5 billion of us, so I tend to think not having kids is pretty selfless from that perspective.
I so agree with that comment.
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I'll probably get creamed here in present company for answering, but this sounds like an honest question, so I'll try (despite the previous jokes). If someone gives a reason for not wanting children that focuses on me me me, then it sounds selfish. Go figure! If someone gives an answer that isn't focused completely on themselves, then IMO, it doesn't seem selfish.
IMO, selfish sounding: 1) I want to have complete freedom to do whatever the hell I want and a kid would interfere.
2) I don't want to have to support/consider other people.
IMO, not selfish sounding: 1) I have a calling to do x, and a kid would probably interfere, or it wouldn't be fair to the kid.
2) I don't feel capable of properly supporting/considering other people.
This is the thing I never quite get, though--surely you don't WANT people who don't want kids to have kids?
Isn't it the more selfless choice to say "man, I'd like my one short life on this earth to be about me" and then STICK to it, rather than going "wait, that's selfish, better get pregnant"? Surely it's much more selfish to have a child--a human being who depends completely upon you--unless you're really, really, really sure you both want that and can handle it?
Also, there are 7.5 billion of us, so I tend to think not having kids is pretty selfless from that perspective.
I was only addressing the question about why it may be viewed as selfish. A definition:
self·ish
ˈselfiSH/Submit
adjective
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
So, if the definition applies, then it's selfish. If the definition doesn't apply, then it's not. Now, whether considering being selfish is good or bad in regards to having children is a value judgment. However, once you start considering the welfare of the children in question, or of the planet, then the focus is shifting away from the self. Therefore, once you consider outside factors, it no longer qualifies as selfish. I'm not sure that you could say it's selfless, though, unless you are not considering the self at all in the decision.
It sounds like you do have kids, yes? Why did you decide to have them? Do you consider your choice selfish (by your definition and application as above)?
Also, I disagree that the definition of selfish that you posted applies. Deciding not to have kids because you like freedom isn't lacking in consideration for others. It's a decision that doesn't really have anything to do with others. There aren't considerations that one is disregarding. Again, is it selfish to live in a loft condo because you find it aesthetically pleasing and good for your lifestyle? Not by most connotations of "selfish", I don't think. Because you aren't choosing the feelings of yourself over those of others. It's just that only the feelings of yourself matter in an especially significant way. By your interpretation, my decision to have oatmeal for breakfast was selfish because the only real criteria I used what that oatmeal sounded good to me. Because I didn't use the feelings of other to make my culinary decision, it was selfish? Of course not.
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Also, I disagree that the definition of selfish that you posted applies. Deciding not to have kids because you like freedom isn't lacking in consideration for others. It's a decision that doesn't really have anything to do with others. There aren't considerations that one is disregarding. Again, is it selfish to live in a loft condo because you find it aesthetically pleasing and good for your lifestyle? Not by most connotations of "selfish", I don't think. Because you aren't choosing the feelings of yourself over those of others. It's just that only the feelings of yourself matter in an especially significant way. By your interpretation, my decision to have oatmeal for breakfast was selfish because the only real criteria I used what that oatmeal sounded good to me. Because I didn't use the feelings of other to make my culinary decision, it was selfish? Of course not.
This is so well-put! I was struggling to articulate why I didn't think that was accurate, and you found the exact right words.
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Also, I disagree that the definition of selfish that you posted applies. Deciding not to have kids because you like freedom isn't lacking in consideration for others. It's a decision that doesn't really have anything to do with others. There aren't considerations that one is disregarding. Again, is it selfish to live in a loft condo because you find it aesthetically pleasing and good for your lifestyle? Not by most connotations of "selfish", I don't think. Because you aren't choosing the feelings of yourself over those of others. It's just that only the feelings of yourself matter in an especially significant way. By your interpretation, my decision to have oatmeal for breakfast was selfish because the only real criteria I used what that oatmeal sounded good to me. Because I didn't use the feelings of other to make my culinary decision, it was selfish? Of course not.
This is so well-put! I was struggling to articulate why I didn't think that was accurate, and you found the exact right words.
Yes, exactly.
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Yandz- thanks for mentioning the book, I will check it out.
Also, it is incredible to me that there is so much debate on the subject of a person choosing to not have kids! Really?! Whose business if a person chooses to not have kids. As far as I can see, this in no way would affect a person with children... Personally, my choice does not mean I'm against people having kids in general. Just it is not for me.
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Yandz- thanks for mentioning the book, I will check it out.
Also, it is incredible to me that there is so much debate on the subject of a person choosing to not have kids! Really?! Whose business if a person chooses to not have kids. As far as I can see, this in no way would affect a person with children... Personally, my choice does not mean I'm against people having kids in general. Just it is not for me.
Sure thing. I hope you like it.
I agree, there shouldn't be so much "right or wrong" to the debate and feel the same way that my decision has no impact on how I view others' decisions. I think it gets tricky because of assumptions - sometimes based off of experience even - that get extrapolated to assume everyone feels that way such that individual decisions feel like deep judgments. For every person with a child who has called me selfish or said I will never know what real love is, I assume there is another person without a child that called that parent thoughtless for overpopulating the earth. So I just keep my heart open and dialogue with other open hearts and keep my head down/mouth shut for the rest of it ;)
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You know, I actually began to lie about not wanting kids after receiving several negative comments from people, usually at work. ( "the meaning of life is having kids." "You must have an issue from your childhood you need to work out."...) . I began to smile and say " not yet." when asked if i have kids to avoid having to hear it. But I'm not going to do that anymore because its not something that needs to be hidden, actually a decision I'm very happy with.
Been very interesting reading this thread
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You know, I actually began to lie about not wanting kids after receiving several negative comments from people, usually at work. ( "the meaning of life is having kids." "You must have an issue from your childhood you need to work out."...) . I began to smile and say " not yet." when asked if i have kids to avoid having to hear it. But I'm not going to do that anymore because its not something that needs to be hidden, actually a decision I'm very happy with.
Been very interesting reading this thread
I used to say 'not yet', but now I'm old enough that the response to 'not yet' is 'well you aren't getting any younger'! I'm lucky enough to not get any brutally negative responses since I switched to 'not interested in having any kids'.
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I have, more than once, replied to someone judging me for not having kids, with: "You know, there are a lot of reasons why people don't have kids. Some of us have tragically lost a pregnancy or have tried desperately to have them, and your comments bring up unspeakable pain."
The babbled apologies and red faces were satisfying. I hope it made them think twice about asking people to justify their childlessness.
Not that that's true for me. But fuck people who need to assume things about others' choices.
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I have, more than once, replied to someone judging me for not having kids, with: "You know, there are a lot of reasons why people don't have kids. Some of us have tragically lost a pregnancy or have tried desperately to have them, and your comments bring up unspeakable pain."
The babbled apologies and red faces were satisfying. I hope it made them think twice about asking people to justify their childlessness.
Not that that's true for me. But fuck people who need to assume things about others' choices.
I know someone for whom that is true. You're right, every time someone mentions having kids it's like they stabbed her. Some people never figure it out though.
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Childfree by choice, but both of my ex-wives and many of my ex-GFs all wanted children. This always left me with the impression that I was in the minority, and that women wanted, on average, children more than men did.
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I have, more than once, replied to someone judging me for not having kids, with: "You know, there are a lot of reasons why people don't have kids. Some of us have tragically lost a pregnancy or have tried desperately to have them, and your comments bring up unspeakable pain."
The babbled apologies and red faces were satisfying. I hope it made them think twice about asking people to justify their childlessness.
Not that that's true for me. But fuck people who need to assume things about others' choices.
Holy man, I was bombarded last month when I went home to my small town for my brother's funeral. My parents, brothers, and even for the most part extended family haven't asked me about having kids in a very long time, but apparently my small town still thinks I need to get on that. I always read stories in threads such as this one and was thankful to not have to deal with those comments. But in the 6 days that I was there I was asked no less than 20 times if/when I was going to start having kids. At the time I wasn't in the right frame of mind to come up with any quick witted comments, I mostly just half smiled and said no thank you. Afterwards I thought about using something similar to the phrase Kris mentioned above. Maybe next time.
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I am in the middle of reading "Two is enough:A couples guide to living childless by choice" by Laura Scott (As recommended by a Mustachian upthread. thank you.) . I will say that I would love to read a book about or by childfree by choice people who are not partnered, if anyone has any suggestions. Thx.
There are a couple points I find interesting so far. One is the "Eighteen motive statements", which naturally I find myself comparing motives. Its something I've not thought about in too much depth, but I like a book that causes me to reflect a bit. My top four motives based on her questionnaire are the following: 1. I value freedom & independence. 2.I have no desire to have a child, no maternal instinct. 3. I want to accomplish/ experience things that would be difficult to do if I was a parent. 4. I want to focus my time and energy on my own interests needs and goals.
Scott also writes about the "four ways in which people come to remain childless by choice" . 1. early articulators. 2. postponers. 3. acquiescers .4. undecided. I also had never thought about this much, but realized I was an early articulator (closest of her few options). I never thought about being a mother, not even as a little girl. I played with dolls and played house (amoung a lot of other things..) but was always focused on being a teen with sisters (I have brothers) , friends, boyfriends, not a parental figure.. I recall telling my parents when I was 18 that I was never having kids. as an adult having had a (failed) marriage and other LTR's I feel strongly in my decision to not hav kids, and I this point only want to date those who feel the same way or who maybe already have kids but don't want more...
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Also, Scott had a interviewee who mentioned that the only downside to not having kids for her is the negative comments she gets from other people, and so far I have to agree.
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I found this list of books on the topic:
http://www.childfree.net/books.html
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Also, Scott had a interviewee who mentioned that the only downside to not having kids for her is the negative comments she gets from other people, and so far I have to agree.
We've been getting a lot of "you're next" from our neighbors because our next door neighbors just had a baby. We've been in our house for less than 6 months, so we don't really know how to respond. We make jokes about our poorly behaving dog, which would translate to horrible children.
Last night my husband asked me how many years we have to put up with people asking about when we're having kids. I guessed another 20 years (when we're in our 50s). Any thoughts from the rest of the thread? When did people stop asking you about kids?
Divorce helped (lol).
Seriously, though, When it stopped for me was when I got remarried to a guy who had two kids from a previous marriage. Because THEN, the "received wisdom" is that if you get pregnant, you're "taking away" from the children from the first marriage.
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Also, Scott had a interviewee who mentioned that the only downside to not having kids for her is the negative comments she gets from other people, and so far I have to agree.
We've been getting a lot of "you're next" from our neighbors because our next door neighbors just had a baby. We've been in our house for less than 6 months, so we don't really know how to respond. We make jokes about our poorly behaving dog, which would translate to horrible children.
Last night my husband asked me how many years we have to put up with people asking about when we're having kids. I guessed another 20 years (when we're in our 50s). Any thoughts from the rest of the thread? When did people stop asking you about kids?
I've only had two or three comments in the last year or so. To me that feels like it's stopped. I'm 36. I'm also not married and now that all my remaining siblings have kids the pressure is off me (not that my parents were ever very pushy about it). I think if I got married it might be different, at least for the first year or two.
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Also, Scott had a interviewee who mentioned that the only downside to not having kids for her is the negative comments she gets from other people, and so far I have to agree.
We've been getting a lot of "you're next" from our neighbors because our next door neighbors just had a baby. We've been in our house for less than 6 months, so we don't really know how to respond. We make jokes about our poorly behaving dog, which would translate to horrible children.
Last night my husband asked me how many years we have to put up with people asking about when we're having kids. I guessed another 20 years (when we're in our 50s). Any thoughts from the rest of the thread? When did people stop asking you about kids?
I've only had two or three comments in the last year or so. To me that feels like it's stopped. I'm 36. I'm also not married and now that all my remaining siblings have kids the pressure is off me (not that my parents were ever very pushy about it). I think if I got married it might be different, at least for the first year or two.
My family and in-laws aren't the problem. We've been very clear with our families that we're not interested in kids, and they haven't made any comments.
It's coworkers, neighbors, friends, and acquaintances. I find it hard to bite my tongue when I hear "you'll change your mind," "that's so selfish," or "aren't you worried your husband will leave you for a woman who wants kids?". I have a few friends that are desperate for me to have kids. They're so invested that it makes me uncomfortable. My husband jokes that our friends want us to be as miserable as they are. Lately our neighbors have been making comments too. To be fair, we haven't told our neighbors that we don't have kids on purpose. Maybe the comments will die down once we get to know people better.
That really sucks. What horrible and intrusive comments. I don't know my neighbors well enough, nor my coworkers. At my last job I knew my coworkers much better, but they'd only make comments about when I was going to move to Phoenix and marry my boyfriend (because in their minds they would already be gone south if given the opportunity, and everyone mistakenly things immigration is sooo easy if you just get married). Most of my friends are in their 20s and also do not have kids, many of them also claim to never want kids. Generally, I feel like I lucked out.
Occasionally I get comments from extended family, distant friends and acquaintances who I rarely see, or my ex-boyfriend's mom (apparently his new girlfriend gets it more than me and is just as irritated). Now that I'm thinking about it, at my brother's funeral a couple months ago, which was packed with people from my home town who I rarely see and barely know (but they all remember me somehow) I was bombarded by questions about when I was getting married and when I was having a baby. I'd forgotten all about that. Maybe I shut it out or have selective memory. (And one reallllly inappropriate comment about whether that piece of cake I was eating was part of my diet. I'd lost 65 pounds since I'd seen her last. You'd think a single piece of cake at my brother's funeral would have been permissible without snarky comment).
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Also, Scott had a interviewee who mentioned that the only downside to not having kids for her is the negative comments she gets from other people, and so far I have to agree.
We've been getting a lot of "you're next" from our neighbors because our next door neighbors just had a baby. We've been in our house for less than 6 months, so we don't really know how to respond. We make jokes about our poorly behaving dog, which would translate to horrible children.
Last night my husband asked me how many years we have to put up with people asking about when we're having kids. I guessed another 20 years (when we're in our 50s). Any thoughts from the rest of the thread? When did people stop asking you about kids?
I've only had two or three comments in the last year or so. To me that feels like it's stopped. I'm 36. I'm also not married and now that all my remaining siblings have kids the pressure is off me (not that my parents were ever very pushy about it). I think if I got married it might be different, at least for the first year or two.
My family and in-laws aren't the problem. We've been very clear with our families that we're not interested in kids, and they haven't made any comments.
It's coworkers, neighbors, friends, and acquaintances. I find it hard to bite my tongue when I hear "you'll change your mind," "that's so selfish," or "aren't you worried your husband will leave you for a woman who wants kids?". I have a few friends that are desperate for me to have kids. They're so invested that it makes me uncomfortable. My husband jokes that our friends want us to be as miserable as they are. Lately our neighbors have been making comments too. To be fair, we haven't told our neighbors that we don't have kids on purpose. Maybe the comments will die down once we get to know people better.
Try telling them that you are members of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement - http://www.vhemt.org/
Motto: May we live long and die out.
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DH and i are also childfree. Our parents luckily don't bother us too much about it, as our siblings have children. Whenever someone asks if I have kids, I put on a big smile and say "Nope!" They don't ask much follow up questions after that.
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<raises hand> Us too!
We're in our late 40's. Been together for 25+ years, both were CF pretty much as far back as we remember.
We had a tough time finding a doc to snip me at age 23, but eventually found a guy. BTW, sex was much better after snippage because we were both no longer worried about accidents. I think since we were young at the time, the worry was due to having spent the previous 6 years focused on not having an accident.
Some of our responses to THE question have been:
"We're gonna skip the parenting part and going straight to the fun part: being grandparents."
"We can't manage to feed ourselves on a regular schedule, so taking care of kids is right out."
"Thanks for your interest. Actually, I'm gonna try to get her knocked up tonight. Maybe you could coach us?"
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I recently used, "my house is so messy, if we had kids CPS would take them away. I don't have time to clean, much less to care for a baby."
I find that humor is a nice deflection, as it prevents the moment from feeling tense and yet also suggests I'm not really interested in having a meaningful conversation about the subject.
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Dunno what it is, but basically no one has ever given me shit about this, at least not beyond simply asking me if I have or want children. I say no, explain how that I come from a big family and have done my baby time, and then the subject is dropped.
I think the fact that I am generally a big weirdo helps on this. :)
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Dunno what it is, but basically no one has ever given me shit about this, at least not beyond simply asking me if I have or want children. I say no, explain how that I come from a big family and have done my baby time, and then the subject is dropped.
I think the fact that I am generally a big weirdo helps on this. :)
Just curious... are you married? Your user name is "Miss" so I am guessing maybe you aren't. If so, that may be a huge factor in why you don't get a lot of push on the subject.
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I'm 22 and will definitely never want or have kids. I want to be able to live my life on my terms: aka travel whenever/wherever I want, not be legally bound to a dependent for 18 years, etc. Also the idea of being pregnant has always freaked me out and I just find children
annoying exhausting. I've openly stated this my entire life (from age 10 onwards!) so my family at least has never really given me crap for it.
Being child-free by choice definitely helps to weed out potential future partners, that's for sure.
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<raises hand> Us too!
We're in our late 40's. Been together for 25+ years, both were CF pretty much as far back as we remember.
We had a tough time finding a doc to snip me at age 23, but eventually found a guy. BTW, sex was much better after snippage because we were both no longer worried about accidents. I think since we were young at the time, the worry was due to having spent the previous 6 years focused on not having an accident.
Some of our responses to THE question have been:
"We're gonna skip the parenting part and going straight to the fun part: being grandparents."
"We can't manage to feed ourselves on a regular schedule, so taking care of kids is right out."
"Thanks for your interest. Actually, I'm gonna try to get her knocked up tonight. Maybe you could coach us?"
Love these. My responses vary according to the way the question is asked, but here's a sample:
"I never had the urge, but if I did, I'd lie down until it went away."
"When someone asks me that question, what I hear is: 'Why don't you try going to prison for 18 years. You might like it.'"
"Because I'd be a terrible mother."
"As soon as someone tells me I have to do something, I can think of a hundred reasons not to do it."
"I'm too lazy and selfish."
"Isn't it great to live in an era of effective birth control?"
To my religious friends: "God said: 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.' Well, the earth is full."
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Instead of increasing regret as time moves along, I am feeling more and more certain that a child-free life was the right path for us. Wife concurs.
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I am child free but not by choice. It does cheer me up though to hear all these stories of the "road not taken"...
Its good to know about all the people out there enjoying a happy child free life because you never seem to hear about it. Its like we all don't exist!
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Dunno what it is, but basically no one has ever given me shit about this, at least not beyond simply asking me if I have or want children. I say no, explain how that I come from a big family and have done my baby time, and then the subject is dropped.
I think the fact that I am generally a big weirdo helps on this. :)
Just curious... are you married? Your user name is "Miss" so I am guessing maybe you aren't. If so, that may be a huge factor in why you don't get a lot of push on the subject.
I am married, but I didnt marry till I was 39 (we'd been together for 4 years by then).
Before that, maybe in my 20s, I got "oh you'll change your mind when you meet the right fellow" but of course that didn't happen. The right fellow for me doesn't want kids either. :)
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I am child free but not by choice. It does cheer me up though to hear all these stories of the "road not taken"...
Its good to know about all the people out there enjoying a happy child free life because you never seem to hear about it. Its like we all don't exist!
This is so true. I used to worry that maybe I would regret not having children when I'm much older. But the older I get the more I am sure I made the right decision. Or more accurately, the more I am glad a string of circumstances made that decision for me. It's really uplifting to hear stories from people who are enjoying the benefits of life without children, and do not have regrets.
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. Actually, since I've been sterilized, I feel more free to express this and interact with kids, since people are less likely to tell me how wonderful I am with children, how I really should have them and how I'll change my mind.
THIS. You almost feel like you have to be, "Ew CHILDREN!" Otherwise people see you be nice to one and they say you need to have one. So you overcompensate with the, "ICK! BABIES!" I love how people feel they get to express their opinions on your life choices all the time.
I did not want kids when I was younger, then I went through a brief period where I thought I might, but I realize that I don't want that commitment. I can barely care for myself and my dogs sometimes. And I'm 33 now. I had my annual recently and she asked if I wanted kids and I said, "Eh. I'm too old and tired." And she laughed at me. I feel like I am being responsible by not having them, although part of me really longs for that bonding and love. But I realize I only want the fun, loving parts. None of the crap parts, LOL!
Let the people who truly, clearly love them and want them have them.
Thank you so much for this discussion, even the parts that were heated and all over the place. It gave me a lot of food for thought. I'm realizing that I don't know exactly who I am in a lot of ways, that I still struggle with identity and acceptance. When I think of becoming a mother, I imagine myself as this type of person defined in a certain way. The idea of becoming part of a community, of finding a way of instantly bonding with other people, is what is attractive. Not necessarily the child. I have lots more thoughts to think.
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...I still struggle with identity and acceptance...The idea of becoming part of a community, of finding a way of instantly bonding with other people, is what is attractive.
I think you just described some of main reasons people have children: instant community, socially-lauded role and "meaning." A friend of mine just adopted a child because she and her husband wanted a feeling of meaning and belonging (their words). It was a surprise to us all because they'd never wanted a kid. I'm sure they'll be good parents, but worry that it's a lot for the kid to deliver (after all, kids tend to grow up and have lives separate from their parents).
I think that more people would opt to be child free if there were ways to have meaningful longterm relationships with kids. So much of our society is age segregated so contact across ages (with non-relatives) isn't the norm.
Anyway, I'm in my mid-40s and so glad that I've stayed childfree. I enjoy hanging with my nieces/nephews, but wouldn't want that all of the time.
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A friend of mine just adopted a child because she and her husband wanted a feeling of meaning and belonging (their words). It was a surprise to us all because they'd never wanted a kid. I'm sure they'll be good parents, but worry that it's a lot for the kid to deliver (after all, kids tend to grow up and have lives separate from their parents).
Yes, agreed.
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Yup. Then again, being a married lesbian couple we don't even need to be careful. :) Some lesbian/gay couples who want children may not think so, but we personally think it's a blessing. I do like children, but only from about 9 a.m. to 4 p.m., while I'm on the job (I'm an elementary school teacher). I cannot imagine coming home to more of them!
Never wanted them, never will. My wife luckily agrees wholeheartedly. Now to get on the same page about saving money...
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No children, sterilised at 34 because whilst I knew I did not want children, I also know that when something went wrong with contraceptives, I also could not opt for an abortion (not religious, but can't even swat a fly, strict vegetarian bordering on vegan).
I think having children has to start with wanting them. If that start is not there, why would I question that, or wonder about, or or even try to force myself into wanting them? If the initial desire, longing, want for children is not there, I see no reason to think any further about it.
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I have a kid so I cannot relate, but this article might be interesting to read for the rest of you. It is from Cracked.com titled 6 Weird lessons you learn when deciding not to have kids.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-weird-lessons-you-learn-when-deciding-to-not-have-kids/ (http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-weird-lessons-you-learn-when-deciding-to-not-have-kids/)
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I think having children has to start with wanting them. If that start is not there, why would I question that, or wonder about, or or even try to force myself into wanting them? If the initial desire, longing, want for children is not there, I see no reason to think any further about it.
That's it for me. I had an absence of wanting children, so why try to whip myself into a frenzy of wanting them?
I "want" pets, I have a yen for them, I enjoy them, I love them. So I recognize the yen, its just not for human babies.
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I think having children has to start with wanting them. If that start is not there, why would I question that, or wonder about, or or even try to force myself into wanting them? If the initial desire, longing, want for children is not there, I see no reason to think any further about it.
That's it for me. I had an absence of wanting children, so why try to whip myself into a frenzy of wanting them?
I "want" pets, I have a yen for them, I enjoy them, I love them. So I recognize the yen, its just not for human babies.
Yeah, me too. I want kittens and cats (self-limited to 2 though). Not interested in human babies so much, though I'm good with short doses.
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I think having children has to start with wanting them. If that start is not there, why would I question that, or wonder about, or or even try to force myself into wanting them? If the initial desire, longing, want for children is not there, I see no reason to think any further about it.
That's it for me. I had an absence of wanting children, so why try to whip myself into a frenzy of wanting them?
I "want" pets, I have a yen for them, I enjoy them, I love them. So I recognize the yen, its just not for human babies.
Last week, my stepdaughter had a baby. So, I'm now a grandma, without ever having kids myself.
Not having any maternal instinct for human babies, I am now having to do the appropriate things/make the appropriate noises of delight at my new grandson (who is cute and everything, for a baby, but you know...)
So, I decided I could "pass" by saying the same things I would say about a kitten (minus talking about fur, of course). E.g.: "Look at that little face!"
What cracks me up is, my husband figured out exactly what I was doing before I even told him. He knows me well.
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I think having children has to start with wanting them. If that start is not there, why would I question that, or wonder about, or or even try to force myself into wanting them? If the initial desire, longing, want for children is not there, I see no reason to think any further about it.
That's it for me. I had an absence of wanting children, so why try to whip myself into a frenzy of wanting them?
I "want" pets, I have a yen for them, I enjoy them, I love them. So I recognize the yen, its just not for human babies.
Last week, my stepdaughter had a baby. So, I'm now a grandma, without ever having kids myself.
Not having any maternal instinct for human babies, I am now having to do the appropriate things/make the appropriate noises of delight at my new grandson (who is cute and everything, for a baby, but you know...)
So, I decided I could "pass" by saying the same things I would say about a kitten (minus talking about fur, of course). E.g.: "Look at that little face!"
What cracks me up is, my husband figured out exactly what I was doing before I even told him. He knows me well.
I think newborns are boring and not cute. I like them at 8 months.
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I think having children has to start with wanting them. If that start is not there, why would I question that, or wonder about, or or even try to force myself into wanting them? If the initial desire, longing, want for children is not there, I see no reason to think any further about it.
That's it for me. I had an absence of wanting children, so why try to whip myself into a frenzy of wanting them?
I "want" pets, I have a yen for them, I enjoy them, I love them. So I recognize the yen, its just not for human babies.
Last week, my stepdaughter had a baby. So, I'm now a grandma, without ever having kids myself.
Not having any maternal instinct for human babies, I am now having to do the appropriate things/make the appropriate noises of delight at my new grandson (who is cute and everything, for a baby, but you know...)
So, I decided I could "pass" by saying the same things I would say about a kitten (minus talking about fur, of course). E.g.: "Look at that little face!"
What cracks me up is, my husband figured out exactly what I was doing before I even told him. He knows me well.
I think newborns are boring and not cute. I like them at 8 months.
Well, they don't do anything, don't interact with you at all, and require near 24/7 attention. Plus, they're usually weird colors and have squished faces/heads. They need some time to get interesting and cute.
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I think having children has to start with wanting them. If that start is not there, why would I question that, or wonder about, or or even try to force myself into wanting them? If the initial desire, longing, want for children is not there, I see no reason to think any further about it.
That's it for me. I had an absence of wanting children, so why try to whip myself into a frenzy of wanting them?
I "want" pets, I have a yen for them, I enjoy them, I love them. So I recognize the yen, its just not for human babies.
Yeah, me too. I want kittens and cats (self-limited to 2 though). Not interested in human babies so much, though I'm good with short doses.
I aspire to be a crazy cat lady one day. Just know kidding, but seriously will love to hav at least two maybe five. No animals for now tho, I'm too busy to hang out !
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I think having children has to start with wanting them. If that start is not there, why would I question that, or wonder about, or or even try to force myself into wanting them? If the initial desire, longing, want for children is not there, I see no reason to think any further about it.
That's it for me. I had an absence of wanting children, so why try to whip myself into a frenzy of wanting them?
I "want" pets, I have a yen for them, I enjoy them, I love them. So I recognize the yen, its just not for human babies.
Last week, my stepdaughter had a baby. So, I'm now a grandma, without ever having kids myself.
Not having any maternal instinct for human babies, I am now having to do the appropriate things/make the appropriate noises of delight at my new grandson (who is cute and everything, for a baby, but you know...)
So, I decided I could "pass" by saying the same things I would say about a kitten (minus talking about fur, of course). E.g.: "Look at that little face!"
What cracks me up is, my husband figured out exactly what I was doing before I even told him. He knows me well.
I once accidentally said, "Oh, hello Kitten-Head" to my niece. My husband just sat there smirking at me, because he knows that "Kitten-Head" is the nickname we used for one of our cats when we hadn't yet chosen a name. No one else seemed to notice.
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I'm very happily married and we are child-free by choice. I will be 40 next year and think not having children was one of the best decisions I've ever made.:)
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I've been childfree by choice for almost 34 years. I'm not sure if I will stick by this choice. Certainly I've done my share of stupid things when I was younger that could have created a child, but luckily being smart took hold fast.
Children seem great, but everyone I know is divorced - parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends. So it seems pretty damn stupid or a great jump to get married and have kids.
Even with all that, I'm very much open to the idea if the right situation came along and I'm always looking to see if that can happen.
So who knows?
If I could somehow pay a woman to have a baby with me and give up her rights to the child (no child support to her, I get full custody, she doesn't get to see the child) I would consider it.
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Children seem great, but everyone I know is divorced - parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends. So it seems pretty damn stupid or a great jump to get married and have kids.
In some ways, divorced parents who co-parent have it easier. They can trade the kids back and forth and can get some time to themselves. Of course, this only works if the two parties are amicable and willing to cooperate, and also live within close distances of each other.
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No kids for me. I just want to be the eccentric rich aunt :D
+1 - I am a eccentric aunt to my 3 nieces. (Rich part to come).
My husband and I both never wanted any kids. They're still time for us but we've sort of taken the "if it happens, it happens" stance. It hasn't happened yet, we're not too worried about it. :)
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In the small office where I work there are two women out on maternity leave and two more who are soon to follow. As a matter of fact one of them is well past her due date and looks like she could make a hospital run at any moment. So for a little over a year and a half much of the office conversation has involved in some way shape or form every detail you could imagine about pregnancy and babies. If I wasn't already so certain that I didn't want children I'm pretty darn sure now.
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In the small office where I work there are two women out on maternity leave and two more who are soon to follow. As a matter of fact one of them is well past her due date and looks like she could make a hospital run at any moment. So for a little over a year and a half much of the office conversation has involved in some way shape or form every detail you could imagine about pregnancy and babies. If I wasn't already so certain that I didn't want children I'm pretty darn sure now.
Hahaha, yup.I was already sure, but 4 babies hav been born in recent years at my small (beauty salon) place of business. They still say "you're next!!!". And I still say " nope".
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We are childfree by choice too, in our mid/late 40's now, together since our early 20's, and have never regretted our decision.
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Yep. I'm introverted and a relatively low-energy person to boot. I am in awe of how my friends manage to work full-time and raise a family without collapsing from the exhaustion of being constantly "on" for everyone else.
We've got a great life, just the two of us and the dogs. No regrets.
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I just got into this site and am a bit stunned by the activity. I realize this is an old thread but l am tooo lazy to start a new one, and it looks as though...
"Instead of propagating genes we are generating memes".
But seriously, l chose to be child free in my early 20's (vasectomy) for both the physical freedom and to avoid the financial responsibilities of being a parent.
BEST decision l ever made and l highly recommend childfreedom. If you do the math, it's obvious that you will achieve fire at a younger age. Then, if you want, go ahead and reproduce.
I recommend adopting because the world is overpopulated beyond sustainability.
my partner didn't want to adopt...which was ok with me because l still have the physical freedom to do what l want (geriatric mountaineering in Kyrgyzstan, etc.).
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Im female, married and 41. I’m deliriously happy we are barren, fruitless, selfish unnatural monsters 😀...
Actually I have heard some say that childhood trauma can lead a person to choose a child free life, and that may be true for us, both of us have a mentally ill parent... What are others’ thoughts on this?
Experiencing messed up parents can sometimes make a person say “I’m gonna do a better job when my day comes!” But for me it’s like *shudder* I never want to be responsible for that kind of trauma in another person.
In fact I look around and I also wonder if some people start families merely because they lack any strong creative passions and having children is the most primitive, default level of creative expression? Also some people want a mini me they can bully or project their fantasies onto. I see so many sad, confused little children. Many people don’t think too hard about the emotional nurturing required to be an ok parent. Isn’t it much more admirable to recognise that you may not be up to the task than to add more troubled children to the world?
Sorry if this sounds negative... I’ll try to reload my outrageous optimistic gun!
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Im female, married and 41. I’m deliriously happy we are barren, fruitless, selfish unnatural monsters 😀...
Actually I have heard some say that childhood trauma can lead a person to choose a child free life, and that may be true for us, both of us have a mentally ill parent... What are others’ thoughts on this?
Experiencing messed up parents can sometimes make a person say “I’m gonna do a better job when my day comes!” But for me it’s like *shudder* I never want to be responsible for that kind of trauma in another person.
In fact I look around and I also wonder if some people start families merely because they lack any strong creative passions and having children is the most primitive, default level of creative expression? Also some people want a mini me they can bully or project their fantasies onto. I see so many sad, confused little children. Many people don’t think too hard about the emotional nurturing required to be an ok parent. Isn’t it much more admirable to recognise that you may not be up to the task than to add more troubled children to the world?
Sorry if this sounds negative... I’ll try to reload my outrageous optimistic gun!
Without sharing too many details, I think you're on to something regarding not wanting children after a messed up childhood. Both husband and I each had one abusive and/or neglectful parent; in my case, said parent loved me but resented me, and I was well aware of it. I've never particularly wanted children in large part because I was afraid I'd end up resenting and emotionally abusing them.
We're in our early 40s. We enjoy our niece and nephew and our friends' kids but are increasingly glad not to have our own kids. I don't know if it's our temperaments, screwed up childhoods, or something else but very little about parenting is appealing to us.
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I really relate to your sentiments, OtherJen, thanks for sharing. I’m sorry that you were resented, that’s not a fun burden for a child to bear.
Growing up I expected one day this overwhelming biological urge would take over my mind, zombie-style, and I would suddenly change into a different person, someone ready to start a family... Never happened. My only fear is that the zombie thing might happen after it’s too late and I will look back with regret.
On further thought I recall different people who recommend having children and they seem to focus a lot on how fulfilling it was for them personally (“it fills all my holes”) but not necessarily on how their children are experiencing their parenting. In some cases I think of, these people have estranged children or complex multi-family/custody/divorce situations and I wonder if they are lacking in some level of awareness of others. This sounds judgy, but I do respect the fact that many parents deeply, unselfishly love their children and do a great job of parenting, I just feel that there is a lot of nuance in the whole “selfish childless person missing out” discussion.
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You guys had only ONE crazy parent!!!?
Well..." besides my dysfunctional family, l went to a dysfunctional high school and then had to earn a living within a dysfunctional society".
It is such a messed up world out there. ...and since we apparently haven't learned much from the 20th C, l would be surprised if homo sapiens makes it through the 21st.
( in case anyone hasn't heard, there is a mass extinction event underway. Coral reefs have been decimated in my lifetime...forget about the crazy politics and nuclear arsenals).
Hey, who got me started on this??? But remember, all health is dependent upon both genetics, and the environments in which we live (family, social, financial, ecological, etc.)
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Growing up I expected one day this overwhelming biological urge would take over my mind, zombie-style, and I would suddenly change into a different person, someone ready to start a family... Never happened.
Same here. I just assumed I'd get married, buy a house and have kids because that's what people do. I did the first two, but not the last.
No childhood trauma here, just inherent selfishness and anxiety/OCD that would not make me a good parent. I have never been good around children (ironic as my mother teaches young kids) and that natural motherly feeling just never came out in me. To top it off, my husband is 13 years older than me, and by the time we met he had already gone past his years of wanting children. He would have made a good dad though.
Do I regret it? I turn 40 next month and for me that's the final deadline on having children, so that's making me think about it more. I do see friends post on Facebook about their kids activities and part of me is sad I didn't get to experience it. But I also didn't get to experience the cost, heartache, frustration etc. that comes with being a parent. Overall there are more pros being childless for me.
I will second the comment about adoption though, especially as the idea of something growing inside me put me off more than anything else. We have plenty of children on this planet that need good homes, so why not help them instead of adding to the overpopulation.
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Growing up I expected one day this overwhelming biological urge would take over my mind, zombie-style, and I would suddenly change into a different person, someone ready to start a family... Never happened.
Same here. I just assumed I'd get married, buy a house and have kids because that's what people do. I did the first two, but not the last.
No childhood trauma here, just inherent selfishness and anxiety/OCD that would not make me a good parent. I have never been good around children (ironic as my mother teaches young kids) and that natural motherly feeling just never came out in me. To top it off, my husband is 13 years older than me, and by the time we met he had already gone past his years of wanting children. He would have made a good dad though.
Do I regret it? I turn 40 next month and for me that's the final deadline on having children, so that's making me think about it more. I do see friends post on Facebook about their kids activities and part of me is sad I didn't get to experience it. But I also didn't get to experience the cost, heartache, frustration etc. that comes with being a parent. Overall there are more pros being childless for me.
I will second the comment about adoption though, especially as the idea of something growing inside me put me off more than anything else. We have plenty of children on this planet that need good homes, so why not help them instead of adding to the overpopulation.
If it makes you feel any better, I had the same feelings around that time, for the same reasons. But I really hadn't ever wanted kids, so it was sort of just me being tortured by the idea that a door was closing. As I explained it to my husband at the time: there's a difference between choosing not to have kids, and no longer having the choice.
But ultimately, that's all I was mourning. I'm now almost 52, and no regrets about not having kids at all.
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In fact I look around and I also wonder if some people start families merely because they lack any strong creative passions and having children is the most primitive, default level of creative expression?
I think if you replace creative passion with meaningful way to live for others, then yes.
Happiness doesn't come from putting your unique mark on the world. It can, but only if that unique mark is beneficial to others.
Not everyone will be Dorothy Day or Mohammad Yunus, but many are capable of creating and raising happy healthy children or at least trying. Parenthood is for sure the most primitive default way for us humans to have something to live for beyond ourselves.
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If it makes you feel any better, I had the same feelings around that time, for the same reasons. But I really hadn't ever wanted kids, so it was sort of just me being tortured by the idea that a door was closing. As I explained it to my husband at the time: there's a difference between choosing not to have kids, and no longer having the choice.
But ultimately, that's all I was mourning. I'm now almost 52, and no regrets about not having kids at all.
That does make me feel better, thank you :) And you're right, there is a difference between having an option and not choosing it, versus not having the option at all. I guess it's like a safety net just in case you do wake up one day and suddenly want kids, the option is still there. Until it isn't.
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Im female, married and 41. I’m deliriously happy we are barren, fruitless, selfish unnatural monsters 😀...
Actually I have heard some say that childhood trauma can lead a person to choose a child free life, and that may be true for us, both of us have a mentally ill parent... What are others’ thoughts on this?
Experiencing messed up parents can sometimes make a person say “I’m gonna do a better job when my day comes!” But for me it’s like *shudder* I never want to be responsible for that kind of trauma in another person.
Sorry if this sounds negative... I’ll try to reload my outrageous optimistic gun!
I had some childhood trauma - raised in an alcoholic home - dad was the alcoholic. I really struggled as a child and a young person. And I never wanted to have kids either. I'm 54 years old now and don't regret it. I didn't think I'd be a good parent and didn't want a child to struggle the way I did as a youngster.
My life got better at the age of 27 when I ended up in Overeaters Anonymous. This is a 12-step program for people who have food issues - (I was a compulsive overeater from about the age of 11). Then at 39 after several years of really bad relationships I landed in Co-Dependents Anonymous which is a 12-step program for people who struggle with relationships. Two years after joining CoDA, I met my husband. He's wonderful and we've been together for about 12 years.
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My sister never wanted kids and my kids haven’t either. I think it’s a mistake to have them unless you really want them. My 2 step sons want to have kids so I may still get to be a grandma.
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In fact I look around and I also wonder if some people start families merely because they lack any strong creative passions and having children is the most primitive, default level of creative expression?
I think if you replace creative passion with meaningful way to live for others, then yes.
Happiness doesn't come from putting your unique mark on the world. It can, but only if that unique mark is beneficial to others.
Not everyone will be Dorothy Day or Mohammad Yunus, but many are capable of creating and raising happy healthy children or at least trying. Parenthood is for sure the most primitive default way for us humans to have something to live for beyond ourselves.
I welcome your thoughts. I agree that first and foremost we need to feel part of or believe in something bigger than ourselves. Having children definitely forces that awareness and engagement with something beyond ourselves. Hopefully!
But it’s interesting that you see creative expression as making some kind of mark or impression on the world. For me creative expression is its own reward. I cook or garden or play music for the sheer love of it, not to impress others. I’m happy if others enjoy this too but that is secondary for me.
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There is literally not a week that goes by where I don't at least once think "I'm so glad I don't have kids."
Everything from catching their colds to figuring out the right combo of love and discipline to having to finance them from birth through college. Not having money for fun trips. Having to work longer than I'd like. Blecchh.
Dogs are much easier.
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Just stumbled across this thread and it has been fun to read.
I am a 51 year old male (also single, never married) that made the child free decision many years ago. At about age 40 I decided to get a vasectomy - and I have never regretted that decision. Fortunately, I never "slipped one past the goalie" before the vasectomy. At my age now, women I date are also near my age, so their biology has pretty much taken and pregnancy worries out of the equation anyway.
What I have found really interesting over the years is the number of friends/co-workers, etc. that have commented on the how I "did it right" and their occasional envy at my lifestyle. I often think that people have children because it was something they were supposed to do. It was the next step on the checklist (college, get married, have kids) and they just seemed to do it because they were supposed to do it. While some friends are great parents and they clearly wanted to have children in their lives, it seems a bit sad to see people who were just checking off the box.
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Dogs are much easier.
This is true! We have 3 dogs that we call our children. They are getting older now and the vet bills are going up, but it's still a lot less than three children would have cost.
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Between childhood trauma and a dysfunctional family environment, I've always known I would be childfree by choice. I was another who felt resented by their mother, and was very aware of her jealousy even as a small child. She would always make comments like "I gave up my life to raise you, and I lost myself" etc...it was hard to feel like kids were wanted in her life, because she mostly focused on all the things she had to sacrifice once we came into the world. Once I was a teenager, and older, she seemed competitive with me, and when I would get an opportunity to do something, or have athletic success, it would always be about how "she never got the opportunity, or chance" or whatever...
Anyway, all of that to say I've always known that I would be childless, and a lot of it stems from never wanting to recreate that environment for a child. I'm not saying I would act in that way, but I wouldn't even want to risk the idea of feeling resentful, or like I missed out on something because I had children...I know how painful it was for me to hear/feel those sentiments from my mom, and it's affected me a lot now as an adult.
My other reasoning is really because I lived in a very sheltered, limited (by religion) upbringing, and only since I moved out, graduated college and moved as far away as possible have I felt like I'm becoming my own "real" person. There's so much of life I still want to experience, I'm overwhelmed by the possibilities and can't even imagine putting all of that on hold to create a new life that will be my sole focus for 18 years. I feel sad admitting this, but I was never happy, and never had fun as a kid. I always had this "weight of the world" feeling on my shoulders, even as young as 7 or 8. The first time I ever felt truly happy was learning to mountain bike at 21, and having SO much fun and realizing that I had found something that I was passionate and excited about. I called my mom and told her how much fun I had all weekend with friends, mountain biking and experiencing new things...and she said something like "it's good to have fun, but you're an adult, make sure you're focusing on being responsible." She couldn't (still can't) understand that I spend every weekend riding, camping, climbing mountains, skiing, doing all of these things that bring me immense joy in life. These experiences and passions are so fulfilling, and I feel so much joy that I didn't even realize was possible when I was a kid...it feels a little like making up for lost time growing up.
Anyway...that was a bit of rambling, but all that to say I'm childless by choice, and probably always will be. It's not the right choice for me, but I see so many of my friends becoming wonderful parents to these adorable little ones, and I appreciate that and respect that.
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Im female, married and 41. I’m deliriously happy we are barren, fruitless, selfish unnatural monsters 😀...
Actually I have heard some say that childhood trauma can lead a person to choose a child free life, and that may be true for us, both of us have a mentally ill parent... What are others’ thoughts on this?
Experiencing messed up parents can sometimes make a person say “I’m gonna do a better job when my day comes!” But for me it’s like *shudder* I never want to be responsible for that kind of trauma in another person.
In fact I look around and I also wonder if some people start families merely because they lack any strong creative passions and having children is the most primitive, default level of creative expression? Also some people want a mini me they can bully or project their fantasies onto. I see so many sad, confused little children. Many people don’t think too hard about the emotional nurturing required to be an ok parent. Isn’t it much more admirable to recognise that you may not be up to the task than to add more troubled children to the world?
Sorry if this sounds negative... I’ll try to reload my outrageous optimistic gun!
In my case, I think it is in some ways the opposite. I have an incredible set of parents (and a pretty delightful, though small, extended family). My family was hyper-functional, if there is such a thing. And they manage to maintain a healthy, loving relationship in addition to being kick-ass parents. But when I look at motherhood, I see the intense level of commitment and work and dedication that went it to it, and for me, all of that would eat up all the man joys I get out of life. I think I might be able to have a semi-satisfied life as a mediocre parent, but it I were to do parenting the way I think it should be done, I'd be miserable because it is such an all-consuming thing. Maybe "all consuming" isn't quite right because, as I said, my parents had hobbies and a relationship and a social life that didn't revolve around us. But there's no room for "today blows and I just want to sit quietly for a while". Or "I slept like shit so I am going to sleep in and not get up until noon". Or "Ohhhh! Cheap plane tickets to Vienna in two weeks!" Or "I don't want to spend every Sunday on the soccer/football/baseball field".
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Yes raising kids is a lot of work. When my 3 kids decided that they didn’t want kids I said you should only do it if you are prepared for a very long commitment that involves your life revolving around the kids needs. I can certainly understand why some people don’t want to have kids.
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I love being childfree and the hardest thing for me is even engaging with my nieces/nephews and friends' kids because I find it so uncomfortable and boring. I'm grateful that my close relatives and friends with kids don't live near me so I don't have to fake it often. This probably preserves my relationship with those friends and relatives better!
I've never been able to relate to kids, even when I was one myself. I didn't even like myself when I was a kid and couldn't wait to be an adult. I felt so trapped as a kid. There are a million reasons I'm glad to be childfree, from self-actualization to financial, to selfish reasons, but I don't even really get to those considerations given I have the equivalent to an allergic reaction to children.
I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
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I love being childfree and the hardest thing for me is even engaging with my nieces/nephews and friends' kids because I find it so uncomfortable and boring. I'm grateful that my close relatives and friends with kids don't live near me so I don't have to fake it often. This probably preserves my relationship with those friends and relatives better!
I've never been able to relate to kids, even when I was one myself. I didn't even like myself when I was a kid and couldn't wait to be an adult. I felt so trapped as a kid. There are a million reasons I'm glad to be childfree, from self-actualization to financial, to selfish reasons, but I don't even really get to those considerations given I have the equivalent to an allergic reaction to children.
I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
LOL -- I'm not too far off from you on this. I don't loathe children, but for the most part I don't enjoy being around them. Sometimes, I'll see a baby or a kid with his/her mother in front of me in a line at the store, and they'll do or say something cute, and I'll have an "aww!!!" reaction. But that's about it. It doesn't make me want one. It doesn't make me want to spend time with that kid, or any other kid.
But yeah, my feeling about kittens? Kind of the same as you.
I used to think of it as something I was "lacking." But honestly, I just think everyone's different. I refuse to feel less than or like I'm missing something, and that that makes me "abnormal" in some way. Honestly, if anything, what seems kind of abnormal is the lengths to which some people will go to to have children and mold their entire lives around them. But hey, that's just me.
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I love being childfree and the hardest thing for me is even engaging with my nieces/nephews and friends' kids because I find it so uncomfortable and boring. I'm grateful that my close relatives and friends with kids don't live near me so I don't have to fake it often. This probably preserves my relationship with those friends and relatives better!
I've never been able to relate to kids, even when I was one myself. I didn't even like myself when I was a kid and couldn't wait to be an adult. I felt so trapped as a kid. There are a million reasons I'm glad to be childfree, from self-actualization to financial, to selfish reasons, but I don't even really get to those considerations given I have the equivalent to an allergic reaction to children.
I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
LOL -- I'm not too far off from you on this. I don't loathe children, but for the most part I don't enjoy being around them. Sometimes, I'll see a baby or a kid with his/her mother in front of me in a line at the store, and they'll do or say something cute, and I'll have an "aww!!!" reaction. But that's about it. It doesn't make me want one. It doesn't make me want to spend time with that kid, or any other kid.
But yeah, my feeling about kittens? Kind of the same as you.
I used to think of it as something I was "lacking." But honestly, I just think everyone's different. I refuse to feel less than or like I'm missing something, and that that makes me "abnormal" in some way. Honestly, if anything, what seems kind of abnormal is the lengths to which some people will go to to have children and mold their entire lives around them. But hey, that's just me.
I do like many kids, but for limited periods of time and under controlled circumstances. I'm never the person who volunteers to babysit so that parents can get a night out. All my maternal instincts seem to have been directed toward animals.
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I've been CBC for my entire adult life and am now in my early 40s. My reasons for this are many and varied, and echo many of the preceding posts. That said, after some very tumultuous transitions in my life over the last few years (end of 10 year relationship, death of parent, destruction of most of the neighborhood I grew up in, a few other things), and entering a relationship with someone who was a fence sitter, I questioned a lot of things in my life including why I was CBC. Was it just because of a dysfunctional childhood? Was it entirely logical? Was I willing to give other things up to remain CBC? This was food for a lot of thought, and going through that decision, introspection, and consideration has been really useful. It has not changed my decision to be CBC. It has taken away a lot of the baggage that I have felt about it over the years as others I know have had kids and even made herculean efforts to have kids. I think that the decision to have kids is a huge responsibility, because it is the single biggest influence on that future-person's life both through the genetic lottery and for the environment they will grow up in.
I've had a few friends and acquaintances say on the side that they wish that they either wish they didn't have kids or not so many. I also have friends for whom being a parent is a wonderful and fulfilling part of their life. At the end of the day, I think that it falls on a spectrum, and that position on CBC can shift over time, as can the reasons and relation to being CBC shift over time. Reading the experiences in this thread has been useful for me (I've been following this thread since 2015), and quite a bit of it has resonated strongly for me.
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I love being childfree and the hardest thing for me is even engaging with my nieces/nephews and friends' kids because I find it so uncomfortable and boring. I'm grateful that my close relatives and friends with kids don't live near me so I don't have to fake it often. This probably preserves my relationship with those friends and relatives better!
I've never been able to relate to kids, even when I was one myself. I didn't even like myself when I was a kid and couldn't wait to be an adult. I felt so trapped as a kid. There are a million reasons I'm glad to be childfree, from self-actualization to financial, to selfish reasons, but I don't even really get to those considerations given I have the equivalent to an allergic reaction to children.
I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
LOL -- I'm not too far off from you on this. I don't loathe children, but for the most part I don't enjoy being around them. Sometimes, I'll see a baby or a kid with his/her mother in front of me in a line at the store, and they'll do or say something cute, and I'll have an "aww!!!" reaction. But that's about it. It doesn't make me want one. It doesn't make me want to spend time with that kid, or any other kid.
But yeah, my feeling about kittens? Kind of the same as you.
I used to think of it as something I was "lacking." But honestly, I just think everyone's different. I refuse to feel less than or like I'm missing something, and that that makes me "abnormal" in some way. Honestly, if anything, what seems kind of abnormal is the lengths to which some people will go to to have children and mold their entire lives around them. But hey, that's just me.
I echo all of this! (I find my dogs and cats way cuter than babies). I did go through several years in my mid-late 30s where I was questioning myself a lot. I finally realized I was just coming to terms with the fact that by choosing not to have kids I was A) giving up on the one thing that most women feel is the most important thing in their life and B) I would be missing out on all the "hallmark moments". You know the ones, the pictures of the kids around the Christmas tree, the first day of school or whatever. Once I realized that and allowed myself to feel uncomfortable (sad even) I've felt at peace with my decision. As with all choices in life, there is always a path not taken and things you miss out on.
For what its worth, I think I would be a really good mother but it would totally consume me.
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Married 17 yrs and no kids by choice.
Gotten some “you’re selfish” comments until we went to work at a non-profit serving at risk youth. That pretty much stopped the comments. Raised in religious families where go forth and multiply was taken very seriously. MIL said only having 2 kids was selfish, imagine me not wanting any?! The shame of it.
Kids love my DH and tolerate me. We work with them every day and are happy to walk away at the end if f the day.
Considered kids briefly but it never seemed right. No regrets. We like our life.
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I can't remember if I have posted here before or not- I was too lazy to click back to see how old the OG post was.
Hi! I'm childfree by choice! I'm divorced (I was only married for a few years when I was QUITE YOUNG and I've been divorced for 10 years) and 35 years old.
I have known since I was a child myself that I did not want to carry any children, and I was relatively certain that I didn't want to raise any either.
I have a cornucopia of reasons, but also some mild guilt because my brother and his wife want children SO BADLY but are unable to conceive thus far (and they are approaching their 40s) or afford IVF/Adoption. My parents will likely never be grandparents.
That's not my responsibility, but I am keenly aware of it. Many of my friends also have children and I can tell that they are slightly taken aback by my disinterest in babysitting or holding their kids, etc.
My main factors:
1. I do not make enough money and I am not in a romantic partnership (and unsure if I will be any time soon... I'm kind of a loner).
2. I do not like children- I don't enjoy being around them. Their voices are generally like nails on a chalkboard for me. I find them sticky, rude, and needy while I still understand and appreciate that they are just tiny humans trying to figure life out and deserving of love and patience.
3. I had an eating disorder as a child/teen and have just (at 35) started to level out in terms of body dysmorphia and self-love. I'm a total babe, and have finally come to see myself as such. I work hard at the gym, I eat food when I am hungry, I do the things I need to do to stay level at that.
Having a body that is pregnant would be very emotionally hard for me. I find other people carrying babies inside of them beautiful, I just know it would emotionally wreck me to have one inside my own body.
People remind me all the time (dead-eyed polite smile) that I'd be amazing at raising kids, and I agree... but that window is closing for me and I still feel no biological, emotional, or physical pull toward that.
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I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
I know what you mean. Also, I've been having a difficult time training my willful young horse to be polite when I handle her feet. Last night she was really testing my patience, nearly kicking me a few times, and I looked at her and thought "well, if she keeps this up, I can always sell her." I hear that is frowned upon when it's a human child.
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I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
I know what you mean. Also, I've been having a difficult time training my willful young horse to be polite when I handle her feet. Last night she was really testing my patience, nearly kicking me a few times, and I looked at her and thought "well, if she keeps this up, I can always sell her." I hear that is frowned upon when it's a human child.
Yeah, I think I said something about not being able to give back the human child when trying to explain to my mother why we are childfree. (She's fine with it and has never pressured me but doesn't understand because she always wanted at least one.)
Was it Nebraska that allowed parents to surrender their kids, no questions asked, for a brief time? And then they had to repeal the law because of the overwhelming response (including out-of-state parents and someone who dropped off nine kids)?
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I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
I know what you mean. Also, I've been having a difficult time training my willful young horse to be polite when I handle her feet. Last night she was really testing my patience, nearly kicking me a few times, and I looked at her and thought "well, if she keeps this up, I can always sell her." I hear that is frowned upon when it's a human child.
Yeah, I think I said something about not being able to give back the human child when trying to explain to my mother why we are childfree. (She's fine with it and has never pressured me but doesn't understand because she always wanted at least one.)
Was it Nebraska that allowed parents to surrender their kids, no questions asked, for a brief time? And then they had to repeal the law because of the overwhelming response (including out-of-state parents and someone who dropped off nine kids)?
I had no idea you COULDN’T surrender your children? Isn’t that what those safe drop off places are intended for?
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I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
I know what you mean. Also, I've been having a difficult time training my willful young horse to be polite when I handle her feet. Last night she was really testing my patience, nearly kicking me a few times, and I looked at her and thought "well, if she keeps this up, I can always sell her." I hear that is frowned upon when it's a human child.
Yeah, I think I said something about not being able to give back the human child when trying to explain to my mother why we are childfree. (She's fine with it and has never pressured me but doesn't understand because she always wanted at least one.)
Was it Nebraska that allowed parents to surrender their kids, no questions asked, for a brief time? And then they had to repeal the law because of the overwhelming response (including out-of-state parents and someone who dropped off nine kids)?
I had no idea you COULDN’T surrender your children? Isn’t that what those safe drop off places are intended for?
Yes, but states generally only allow the no-fault surrender of newborns. My own state only allows the surrender of newborns up to 3 days old. The Nebraska law, as originally written, allowed the surrender of any child younger than 18 years.
https://history.nebraska.gov/blog/safe-haven-law-2008 (https://history.nebraska.gov/blog/safe-haven-law-2008)
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I am 37, married, and childfree by choice. I have been getting an increasing amount of comments in the last couple years, from friends/relatives, that we are "doing it right" and "made the right choice" and that they envy our lifestyle and the luxurious amount of sleep/quiet/free time we have. Honestly money hardly ever comes up as a factor.
Among my peer group, there have been a lot of divorces in the last few years as well, all among couples with young children.
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Among my peer group, there have been a lot of divorces in the last few years as well, all among couples with young children.
I've noticed it too. Kid #3 seems to be the breaking point in a lot of marriages.
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Among my peer group, there have been a lot of divorces in the last few years as well, all among couples with young children.
I've noticed it too. Kid #3 seems to be the breaking point in a lot of marriages.
Is there a gap? Too many people think having a kid will fix something, for some I think they remember how happy they were when they were younger and associate the happiness with having their first kid, rather than recognizing their unhappiness is a result of losing touch with their spouse and possibly their social network.
What really gets me is that it seems only the most casual of acquaintances what to talk about my reproductive choices. I guess in their minds they come to "oh, let's ask about kids, that is a great conversation starter!"
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Among my peer group, there have been a lot of divorces in the last few years as well, all among couples with young children.
I've noticed it too. Kid #3 seems to be the breaking point in a lot of marriages.
Is there a gap? Too many people think having a kid will fix something, for some I think they remember how happy they were when they were younger and associate the happiness with having their first kid, rather than recognizing their unhappiness is a result of losing touch with their spouse and possibly their social network.
What really gets me is that it seems only the most casual of acquaintances what to talk about my reproductive choices. I guess in their minds they come to "oh, let's ask about kids, that is a great conversation starter!"
I definitely see a split between the conversation topics of gatherings where most people have kids, and the ones where most people don't. At the parties thrown by my husband's work friends (heavily leaning toward being married and having multiple kids), what their children are up to is the most frequent topic of conversation.
Among the people that we consider our closest friends (most of whom don't have kids), the most frequent topics of conversation are travel, food, the arts, current events, etc.
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Among my peer group, there have been a lot of divorces in the last few years as well, all among couples with young children.
I've noticed it too. Kid #3 seems to be the breaking point in a lot of marriages.
Is there a gap? Too many people think having a kid will fix something, for some I think they remember how happy they were when they were younger and associate the happiness with having their first kid, rather than recognizing their unhappiness is a result of losing touch with their spouse and possibly their social network.
I think so. In most of them, the first kid came within a year after the wedding, so the couple didn't even get a chance to establish themselves as a married couple before having to parent a newborn, and then the kids just kept coming every 2 or 3 years.
What really gets me is that it seems only the most casual of acquaintances what to talk about my reproductive choices. I guess in their minds they come to "oh, let's ask about kids, that is a great conversation starter!"
Yes. So much this. Or there's a complete unwillingness/inability to talk about ANYthing other than young children. My now infrequent and brief conversations with my college best friend are 15 minutes on the car speakerphone while she drives to daycare, and nearly the entire conversation is about her kids' daycare, illnesses, tantrums, neighborhood friends, etc. On the rare occasion that she asks about my life, I get about a sentence to talk before the conversation switches back to her kids or she gets to her destination and cuts me off. My friend has a really interesting high-level academic position and a fascinating personal background but has been completely swallowed by middle-class suburban mommy-ism.
I went shopping with them once and during a screaming, kicking, throwing meltdown by one of the toddlers in the middle of a store, said friend turned to me and said (completely unironically), "so when are you and [my husband] going to have one?" Haha, the First of Never.
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OMG, that has happened to my husband. He will just be staring in shock that this is how the little things act and someone will ask him when we are starting a family!
I have told him to tell people his wife is old. Not that it helps me. I like to shock people with "I'm in my late 40s!" And they just tell me about Janet Jackson.
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OMG, that has happened to my husband. He will just be staring in shock that this is how the little things act and someone will ask him when we are starting a family!
I have told him to tell people his wife is old. Not that it helps me. I like to shock people with "I'm in my late 40s!" And they just tell me about Janet Jackson.
I know you meant the pop singer, but this made me laugh since Ms. Jackson has posted in this thread.
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I don’t have kids and don’t plan to. 28F.
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Wow, can I just say thank you thank you thank you to everyone who's participated in this thread? I'm 32, and also childless by choice. Unless something big changes, I don't see myself having kids in the future. Pregnancy and childbirth terrify me, and although I enjoy kids, I'm really glad to hand them back to their parents after a night's babysitting. I know myself well enough to know I'd be utterly consumed by parenting -- and I don't want to be utterly consumed. I like myself as I am. I like my life.
I had absolutely zero desire for kids -- like, an anti-desire -- up through most of my 20s. Now that I'm in my 30s, I sometimes feel longing for the Kodak moments, as some have mentioned, or I long for that sort of instant closeness/community/meaning that people seem to get from kids. Sometimes I feel guilty because I'm an only child, and my refusal to have kids means my parents will never have grandkids (nor will my partner's parents, since he's an only, too). Overall, though, it's still pretty steadfast: I don't have any desire for children, just some of the community closeness that many people associate with children.
(And frankly, I find that I'm a lot more involved in my community than many people I know who do have children -- I can't imagine finding time to run two book clubs, or volunteer at the library, or anything like that if I had little ones to run around after.)
Just hearing from y'all about happiness despite longings like the above, or just the delightful kitten discussion here (me too, y'all, me too), really means a lot to me.
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Wow, can I just say thank you thank you thank you to everyone who's participated in this thread? I'm 32, and also childless by choice. Unless something big changes, I don't see myself having kids in the future. Pregnancy and childbirth terrify me, and although I enjoy kids, I'm really glad to hand them back to their parents after a night's babysitting. I know myself well enough to know I'd be utterly consumed by parenting -- and I don't want to be utterly consumed. I like myself as I am. I like my life.
I had absolutely zero desire for kids -- like, an anti-desire -- up through most of my 20s. Now that I'm in my 30s, I sometimes feel longing for the Kodak moments, as some have mentioned, or I long for that sort of instant closeness/community/meaning that people seem to get from kids. Sometimes I feel guilty because I'm an only child, and my refusal to have kids means my parents will never have grandkids (nor will my partner's parents, since he's an only, too). Overall, though, it's still pretty steadfast: I don't have any desire for children, just some of the community closeness that many people associate with children.
(And frankly, I find that I'm a lot more involved in my community than many people I know who do have children -- I can't imagine finding time to run two book clubs, or volunteer at the library, or anything like that if I had little ones to run around after.)
Just hearing from y'all about happiness despite longings like the above, or just the delightful kitten discussion here (me too, y'all, me too), really means a lot to me.
I had that guilt, as well.
But here's the thing: As an only child, you only have yourself to depend on.
It feels bad to feel like all the pressure is on you, but you have to live your life and do what is right for you.
I'm 52 now. No kids. So, so grateful that I never had them.
Cats, though. Love me some cats.
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I've been fostering kittens recently and burping them or helping them learn to use a litter box is so fun, and I love seeing them learn something new. And at those times, I'm like, "Hey, this is how most people feel about their kids! They are fascinated by them, like I'm fascinated by these kittens and it makes cleaning up the poop worth it!" But, as much as I can make that connection logically, I just don't feel it. I see my nephew learn something new and I'm like, "Yeah, basic human stuff here. Nice job, good for you." Ok, maybe not that mean, but I'm just not impressed or excited by it at all. It really is some weird gene I'm lacking, but so grateful to be lacking it.
I know what you mean. Also, I've been having a difficult time training my willful young horse to be polite when I handle her feet. Last night she was really testing my patience, nearly kicking me a few times, and I looked at her and thought "well, if she keeps this up, I can always sell her." I hear that is frowned upon when it's a human child.
Yeah, I think I said something about not being able to give back the human child when trying to explain to my mother why we are childfree. (She's fine with it and has never pressured me but doesn't understand because she always wanted at least one.)
Was it Nebraska that allowed parents to surrender their kids, no questions asked, for a brief time? And then they had to repeal the law because of the overwhelming response (including out-of-state parents and someone who dropped off nine kids)?
I had no idea you COULDN’T surrender your children? Isn’t that what those safe drop off places are intended for?
Yes, but states generally only allow the no-fault surrender of newborns. My own state only allows the surrender of newborns up to 3 days old. The Nebraska law, as originally written, allowed the surrender of any child younger than 18 years.
https://history.nebraska.gov/blog/safe-haven-law-2008 (https://history.nebraska.gov/blog/safe-haven-law-2008)
OH wow. I quite literally thought those were for any aged child up to 18. Shows what I know. Thanks for informing me.
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I have a fair number of facebook friends I needed to add for "political" reasons. And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
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I have a fair number of facebook friends I needed to add for "political" reasons. And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
Not long ago, articles flurried about social media discussing an a study that found that having children was one of the worst things for mental health, even worse than having your spouse die.
Parenting is not for the faint of heart.
I personally consider parenting a calling, which is why those who feel that calling have a hard time understanding those who don't.
Parenting doesn't provide net happiness or wellness, but it does provide enormous life satisfaction, according to research, because that's what they felt driven to do.
If a CF person does not feel the internal drive to have kids, then it's irrational for them to take on the personal suffering to have them.
I also don't think that CF people need to give any reasons for not wanting children, because the reasons TO have children aren't rational, so why on earth give rational reasons not to have them. It's nonsensical, and yet I see it all the time, and it often vaguely implies that our mechanisms are damaged or broken somehow, which isn't fair or valid.
For every rational reason not to have kids, there's countless people out there with the exact same circumstances who still choose to have kids anyway.
"I don't like kids"
"Neither did I until I had my own!"
"I had a rough childhood"
"So did I and it's made me a better parent!"
"I have health issues"
"I'm a quadriplegic with cancer and my children give me a will to live"
"I can't have kids"
"ADOPT!"
The logical reasons not to have children sound like nonsense to the people who want children because the reasons to want children aren't rational and they would almost all choose to have them anyway, regardless of the reasons not to.
I say: "I don't find the benefits of parenting very compelling. I understand them very well and understand why others would sacrifice anything for kids, it just doesn't appeal to me."
No matter what argument is made from the pro-kid folks, I just shrug and repeat "it just doesn't appeal to me". No justification given because no justification is needed.
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Malkynn - as a person with kids who is lurking here, your comment makes complete sense. Having kids isn't rational so rational arguments fall on deaf ears. I guess the only comparison I could make is religion.
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I have a fair number of facebook friends I needed to add for "political" reasons. And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
Not long ago, articles flurried about social media discussing an a study that found that having children was one of the worst things for mental health, even worse than having your spouse die.
Parenting is not for the faint of heart.
I personally consider parenting a calling, which is why those who feel that calling have a hard time understanding those who don't.
Parenting doesn't provide net happiness or wellness, but it does provide enormous life satisfaction, according to research, because that's what they felt driven to do.
If a CF person does not feel the internal drive to have kids, then it's irrational for them to take on the personal suffering to have them.
I also don't think that CF people need to give any reasons for not wanting children, because the reasons TO have children aren't rational, so why on earth give rational reasons not to have them. It's nonsensical, and yet I see it all the time, and it often vaguely implies that our mechanisms are damaged or broken somehow, which isn't fair or valid.
For every rational reason not to have kids, there's countless people out there with the exact same circumstances who still choose to have kids anyway.
"I don't like kids"
"Neither did I until I had my own!"
"I had a rough childhood"
"So did I and it's made me a better parent!"
"I have health issues"
"I'm a quadriplegic with cancer and my children give me a will to live"
"I can't have kids"
"ADOPT!"
The logical reasons not to have children sound like nonsense to the people who want children because the reasons to want children aren't rational and they would almost all choose to have them anyway, regardless of the reasons not to.
I say: "I don't find the benefits of parenting very compelling. I understand them very well and understand why others would sacrifice anything for kids, it just doesn't appeal to me."
No matter what argument is made from the pro-kid folks, I just shrug and repeat "it just doesn't appeal to me". No justification given because no justification is needed.
Agreed.
My gut reaction to the idea of having kids has always been, “Bleah. Sounds awful.”
But of course, one doesn’t want to say that to aperson who has kids, because it sounds rude. Even when they are rudely pressing you and trying to convince you to change your mind about becoming a parent.
So, “It just doesn’t appeal to me” is a much better, socially adept version of “Bleah.” :)
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I have a fair number of facebook friends I needed to add for "political" reasons. And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
Not long ago, articles flurried about social media discussing an a study that found that having children was one of the worst things for mental health, even worse than having your spouse die.
Parenting is not for the faint of heart.
I personally consider parenting a calling, which is why those who feel that calling have a hard time understanding those who don't.
Parenting doesn't provide net happiness or wellness, but it does provide enormous life satisfaction, according to research, because that's what they felt driven to do.
If a CF person does not feel the internal drive to have kids, then it's irrational for them to take on the personal suffering to have them.
I also don't think that CF people need to give any reasons for not wanting children, because the reasons TO have children aren't rational, so why on earth give rational reasons not to have them. It's nonsensical, and yet I see it all the time, and it often vaguely implies that our mechanisms are damaged or broken somehow, which isn't fair or valid.
For every rational reason not to have kids, there's countless people out there with the exact same circumstances who still choose to have kids anyway.
"I don't like kids"
"Neither did I until I had my own!"
"I had a rough childhood"
"So did I and it's made me a better parent!"
"I have health issues"
"I'm a quadriplegic with cancer and my children give me a will to live"
"I can't have kids"
"ADOPT!"
The logical reasons not to have children sound like nonsense to the people who want children because the reasons to want children aren't rational and they would almost all choose to have them anyway, regardless of the reasons not to.
I say: "I don't find the benefits of parenting very compelling. I understand them very well and understand why others would sacrifice anything for kids, it just doesn't appeal to me."
No matter what argument is made from the pro-kid folks, I just shrug and repeat "it just doesn't appeal to me". No justification given because no justification is needed.
This post is everything. Everything I feel about not having kids summed up perfectly. I particularly like your answer of "it just doesn't appeal to me." I will be using that one in the future.
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I have a fair number of facebook friends I needed to add for "political" reasons. And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
Not long ago, articles flurried about social media discussing an a study that found that having children was one of the worst things for mental health, even worse than having your spouse die.
Parenting is not for the faint of heart.
I personally consider parenting a calling, which is why those who feel that calling have a hard time understanding those who don't.
Parenting doesn't provide net happiness or wellness, but it does provide enormous life satisfaction, according to research, because that's what they felt driven to do.
If a CF person does not feel the internal drive to have kids, then it's irrational for them to take on the personal suffering to have them.
I also don't think that CF people need to give any reasons for not wanting children, because the reasons TO have children aren't rational, so why on earth give rational reasons not to have them. It's nonsensical, and yet I see it all the time, and it often vaguely implies that our mechanisms are damaged or broken somehow, which isn't fair or valid.
For every rational reason not to have kids, there's countless people out there with the exact same circumstances who still choose to have kids anyway.
"I don't like kids"
"Neither did I until I had my own!"
"I had a rough childhood"
"So did I and it's made me a better parent!"
"I have health issues"
"I'm a quadriplegic with cancer and my children give me a will to live"
"I can't have kids"
"ADOPT!"
The logical reasons not to have children sound like nonsense to the people who want children because the reasons to want children aren't rational and they would almost all choose to have them anyway, regardless of the reasons not to.
I say: "I don't find the benefits of parenting very compelling. I understand them very well and understand why others would sacrifice anything for kids, it just doesn't appeal to me."
No matter what argument is made from the pro-kid folks, I just shrug and repeat "it just doesn't appeal to me". No justification given because no justification is needed.
This post is everything. Everything I feel about not having kids summed up perfectly. I particularly like your answer of "it just doesn't appeal to me." I will be using that one in the future.
It works tremendously well.
The more reasons you give to unnecessarily explain the rationality of your personal preference, the more you actually justify that person arguing with you about your preferences.
It's pure nonsense.
I usually get a reply like
"How can you know until you try?"
And I say "trying just doesn't appeal to me"
They cannot debate with that. It's a dead end and the conversation is over, which is great, because it's not an interesting conversation.
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I have a fair number of facebook friends I needed to add for "political" reasons. And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
Not long ago, articles flurried about social media discussing an a study that found that having children was one of the worst things for mental health, even worse than having your spouse die.
Parenting is not for the faint of heart.
I personally consider parenting a calling, which is why those who feel that calling have a hard time understanding those who don't.
Parenting doesn't provide net happiness or wellness, but it does provide enormous life satisfaction, according to research, because that's what they felt driven to do.
If a CF person does not feel the internal drive to have kids, then it's irrational for them to take on the personal suffering to have them.
I also don't think that CF people need to give any reasons for not wanting children, because the reasons TO have children aren't rational, so why on earth give rational reasons not to have them. It's nonsensical, and yet I see it all the time, and it often vaguely implies that our mechanisms are damaged or broken somehow, which isn't fair or valid.
For every rational reason not to have kids, there's countless people out there with the exact same circumstances who still choose to have kids anyway.
"I don't like kids"
"Neither did I until I had my own!"
"I had a rough childhood"
"So did I and it's made me a better parent!"
"I have health issues"
"I'm a quadriplegic with cancer and my children give me a will to live"
"I can't have kids"
"ADOPT!"
The logical reasons not to have children sound like nonsense to the people who want children because the reasons to want children aren't rational and they would almost all choose to have them anyway, regardless of the reasons not to.
I say: "I don't find the benefits of parenting very compelling. I understand them very well and understand why others would sacrifice anything for kids, it just doesn't appeal to me."
No matter what argument is made from the pro-kid folks, I just shrug and repeat "it just doesn't appeal to me". No justification given because no justification is needed.
This post is everything. Everything I feel about not having kids summed up perfectly. I particularly like your answer of "it just doesn't appeal to me." I will be using that one in the future.
It works tremendously well.
The more reasons you give to unnecessarily explain the rationality of your personal preference, the more you actually justify that person arguing with you about your preferences.
It's pure nonsense.
I usually get a reply like
"How can you know until you try?"
And I say "trying just doesn't appeal to me"
They cannot debate with that. It's a dead end and the conversation is over, which is great, because it's not an interesting conversation.
Yep. That is awesome. Better than the way I have traditionally dealt with very persistent people who don't realize how flawed their trying to convince me to want children is.
"How do you know until you try?"
"Why are you trying to talk me out of my preferences?"
"I just... (stumble) I just think you might be missing out on something so great!"
"So, you think it's worth bringing a child into the world on the off chance that I might like it? What if i don't? You really think an innocent child deserves to have to suffer through life with a parent who doesn't even want it?"
That usually ends the conversation. Albeit a bit aggressively. But usually by that time I've stopped caring about being nice.
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Anything anyone has ever said to encourage someone to have kids has an answer provided by the Voluntary Human Extinction site -
http://www.vhemt.org/
I found it some years ago and it was like coming home.
And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
Given that this is a thread for the childless, these questions are rhetorical and I'm not expecting explanations. But I do want to say: what on earth are these moms doing to their kids that their kids don't let them pee alone? Up to what age do they tolerate this extraordinary behaviour? I'm not surprised they are miserable if they have been so incapable of training their kids from the very start in basic manners and life skills - they've set up some very bad expectations if they allow this. I suppose their inability to bring their kids up decently quite possibly also explains why so many kids are allowed to have and get away with temper tantrums in public.
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Anything anyone has ever said to encourage someone to have kids has an answer provided by the Voluntary Human Extinction site -
http://www.vhemt.org/
I found it some years ago and it was like coming home.
And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
Given that this is a thread for the childless, these questions are rhetorical and I'm not expecting explanations. But I do want to say: what on earth are these moms doing to their kids that their kids don't let them pee alone? Up to what age do they tolerate this extraordinary behaviour? I'm not surprised they are miserable if they have been so incapable of training their kids from the very start in basic manners and life skills - they've set up some very bad expectations if they allow this. I suppose their inability to bring their kids up decently quite possibly also explains why so many kids are allowed to have and get away with temper tantrums in public.
I find this unfair to parents.
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Anything anyone has ever said to encourage someone to have kids has an answer provided by the Voluntary Human Extinction site -
http://www.vhemt.org/
I found it some years ago and it was like coming home.
And it is staggering to me how much bitching SOOOO many of the moms do. They are exhausted. They do everything. They can't pee alone. They have lost their sense of self and purpose. They don't have time or energy to maintain their friendship. They have no money for anything. Posts, articles, shares--some of these women don't seem to have anything on their page except complaints about motherhood (or their marriage relationship within parenthood).
By and large, they sound pretty fucking miserable. NO. THANK YOU.
Given that this is a thread for the childless, these questions are rhetorical and I'm not expecting explanations. But I do want to say: what on earth are these moms doing to their kids that their kids don't let them pee alone? Up to what age do they tolerate this extraordinary behaviour? I'm not surprised they are miserable if they have been so incapable of training their kids from the very start in basic manners and life skills - they've set up some very bad expectations if they allow this. I suppose their inability to bring their kids up decently quite possibly also explains why so many kids are allowed to have and get away with temper tantrums in public.
You do realize that is unsafe to leave a mobile infant or toddler alone even for the amount if time it takes to pee? It is a bit of a transition from taking them into the bathroom with you to convincing them they should pretend like you don't exist while you are there.
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Exactly it is done for safety and they get used to it. By age 3 the kids understand some things moms like to do alone:))
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Anything anyone has ever said to encourage someone to have kids has an answer provided by the Voluntary Human Extinction site -
http://www.vhemt.org/
I found it some years ago and it was like coming home.
Thanks for that link.
There has been a time (when I was in my early thirties), when I felt the urge to get a child. DH and I decided not to have one. If I think back about at my arguments for getting a child back then, I realize most of them were indeed selfish. Like what I found on the website: shouldn't we spread our "intelligent" genes to a next generation. With the current state of the planet (pollution, climate changes and over population), I don't see a good reason to put a new human on this planet. I currently feel a bit sorry about young people who are born now. There are enough mouths to feed already.