Author Topic: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand  (Read 40129 times)

sol

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anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« on: November 11, 2016, 01:30:59 PM »
Curtailing immigration was the central theme of Trump's campaign.  He specifically blamed immigration for economic hardship in some parts of the country, and I just don't get it.  I'm hoping someone can explain it for me in a way that makes sense.

I don't mean to discredit the economic concerns of rural Americans.  If you live in a town that used to thrive because of a factory or a mill that is closed, that sucks for you.  But it's not brown people who did that, it's white people.  Specifically, it's rich white male baby boomers who did that.  Our economy is basically determined by the interplay of government regulations and private corporations.  Over the past 20 years, the rich white male boomer CEOs of the largest US companies have made decisions that are profitable to them because of regulations enacted by the rich white male boomer politicans.  And I'm not even blaming any particular party for that, Clinton and GWB and Trump were all born in 1946.

But Trump tapped into that simmering economic malaise and then inexplicably tied it to brown people.  It may just be coincidental that the US citizens most hurt by the rise of global capitalism are the same US citizens who also hold racist and protectionist views, but it's definitely not a coincidence that Trump capitalized by tying the two together.  He deliberately stoked American racism as the cause of America's economic problems.

That's a bullshit way to win office.  That's classic "blame-the-Jews" style campaigning, singling out a specific ethnic group as the scapegoat for all of your country'es economic problems, and it's just as wrong today as it was when Germany tried it.  If you want to improve the economy, blame those rich white male baby boomers and force changes in government or changes in corporations.  I'm not sure how a border wall is going to help with this problem.

Quite the contrary, actually, I think we NEED immigrants.  Those people buy goods and pay taxes.  US population growth would be negative if we didn't have immigration, and it's basically impossible to hit our targeted economic growth rates if we have a shrinking population.  Ask Japan how that worked out for them.  If you don't like illegal immigrants, but recognize the need for immigration to support our growing economy, why not just make them all legal?  The alternative is that all those rural white voters better start cranking out babies a whole hell of a lot faster than they have been.

From where I'm sitting out here on the liberal left coast, the Republican opposition to immigration just looks like racism against brown people.  Immigration is what made America great in the first place, and it's a necessary part of our future.  It's how your family and my family got here.  We need people willing to work hard to build our country up, and all of this talk of building walls to fix our economy seems exactly backwards.  I agree the economy could use some fixing, but shutting out immigrants seems like the least helpful way to go about it.

So if you're an ardent Trump supporter who felt a wave of warm fuzzy feelings every time Trump said something like "They're taking our jobs" then I'd love to hear your position on this topic in more detail.  Did a Mexican person outsource your company to India?  Did a Mexican move your factory out of Detroit?  Did a Mexican person repeal the Glass-Steagall act, or make mortgages too easy to get, or invade a middle eastern country?  I think there is plenty of blame to go around for why the US economy is not as strong as it could be, but none of it seems to fall to brown people.  So why all the love for that big beautiful border wall?

Chris22

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2016, 01:36:35 PM »
Illegal immigration is bad.

Not immigration. 

chesebert

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2016, 01:39:31 PM »
Illegal immigration is bad.

Not immigration.
Second

sol

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2016, 01:40:06 PM »
Illegal immigration is bad.

Not immigration.

Can you explain to me why it's bad if they are illegal?

Would you feel the same way if Congress changed the rules to grant a legal path to citizenship for anybody who wanted to come here?  Like if they just made all of the illegal ones legal, would they still be bad?

I mean marijuana is illegal too, is that what makes it bad?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 01:41:51 PM by sol »

2Birds1Stone

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2016, 01:40:41 PM »
Illegal immigration is bad.

Not immigration.

Third

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2016, 01:44:29 PM »
Can you explain to me why it's bad if they are illegal?

Are you serious? Yes, I think you are. My goodness...some people have no clue.

sol

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2016, 01:44:41 PM »
Third

Okay, that's three of you who have said it's bad because it's illegal, but none of you have addressed any of my questions.  Is it only bad because it's illegal, or is there some other reason it's bad? 

Because we could make it legal pretty easily, by changing the law.  Lots of things are illegal that probably shouldn't be, and lots of things that are clearly bad aren't illegal.  Whether or not something is legal seems to have very little bearing on whether or not it is good or bad.

In this case, you seem to be saying that immigration is good.  So you recognize the need for US population growth and you value the contributions of people who come to America seeking freedom and opportunity.  And yet, somehow, you suddenly don't want population growth and you don't want their contributions if they stay here in violation of a tourist visa? 

I'm not trying to be dense, honest.  I'm trying to understand why so many people blame immigrants for our economic woes, that from my perspective were caused by white people and could be helped by more brown people. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 01:48:06 PM by sol »

Chris22

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2016, 01:46:18 PM »
Illegal immigration is bad.

Not immigration.

Can you explain to me why it's bad if they are illegal?

Sure, aside from just flouting our laws, it generally means they are not going to be able to conduct business in the US because of lack of SSN, documentation, etc.  They will have a hard time securing housing, so they generally live very densely in places not designed to support it, thus overburdening surrounding resources (ie schools).  And on and on and on. 

It also means that we don't have secure borders which makes it difficult to keep contraband, bad guys, etc out.  And it puts the illegals themselves at risk of fraud by coyote, etc.

Quote
Would you feel the same way if Congress changed the rules to grant a legal path to citizenship for anybody who wanted to come here?  Like if they just made all of the illegal ones legal, would they still be bad?

Yes and no.  I am in favor of dramatically revamping the immigration plan to allow more people in with the caveat that they need to be more or less self-sufficient upon arrival with enough cash reserves, etc to care for themselves.  They should not be able to move to the US and immediately become a drain on our resources and social services; they need to have a job or means of supporting themselves and should not be able to access free social services for X years from their date of entry.

Chris22

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2016, 01:47:15 PM »
Third

Okay, that's three of you who have said it's bad because it's illegal, but none of you have addressed any of my questions.  Is it only bad because it's illegal, or is there some other reason it's bad? 

Dude, you gave us 4 minutes from asking the question to asking why it wasn't answered. 

2Birds1Stone

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2016, 01:49:54 PM »
To clarify, I am not a republican and my family immigrated here legally.



attackgnome

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2016, 01:50:56 PM »
Third

Okay, that's three of you who have said it's bad because it's illegal, but none of you have addressed any of my questions.  Is it only bad because it's illegal, or is there some other reason it's bad? 

Because we could make it legal pretty easily, by changing the law.  Lots of things are illegal that probably shouldn't be, and lots of things that are clearly bad aren't illegal.  Whether or not something is legal seems to have very little bearing on whehter or not it is good or bad.

I'm an open borders, free movement of people and goods sort of person. I think the root of the problem lies in our horrible immigration laws. That being said.....

I can see these poster's concern. People here illegally at one point willfully decided to ignore the laws of the country, and that attitude towards our nation's laws does not inspire confidence in their respect for the rule of law.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2016, 01:55:42 PM »
Illegal immigration is bad.

Not immigration.

Can you explain to me why it's bad if they are illegal?

Would you feel the same way if Congress changed the rules to grant a legal path to citizenship for anybody who wanted to come here?  Like if they just made all of the illegal ones legal, would they still be bad?

I mean marijuana is illegal too, is that what makes it bad?

My family came here legally, we pay taxes, we pay for health insurance, and we are now all citizens.

Illegal immigrants very often work off the books, often get taken advantage of by employers, do not have insurance, and pay little/no taxes.

The idea of seeing my paychecks chopped by 30% to pay my fair share of the social/public programs I use and someone else who entered this country illegally and paying nothing into a system that is often abused just doesn't sit well with me.

I'm all for immigration, and I believe the laws SHOULD be changed. Immigrants are hard workers, and I don't have anything against anyone trying to create a better life for themselves and their families.

Growing up in NYC I saw both sides of the undocumented immigration argument play out. Honest people who escaped places like Cuba and really had no choice but to make it work, and others who simply abused the system while collecting a paycheck off the books and exploiting every loophole possible.

I have a family member who was injured in a car accident, getting hit by an uninsured/undocumented immigrant. I don't feel this person should be allowed to stay in a country and live off of others work.

sol

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2016, 01:58:46 PM »
Dude, you gave us 4 minutes from asking the question to asking why it wasn't answered.

Take all the time you need.  I thought three respondees was enough that I could ask for further clarification.

Sure, aside from just flouting our laws, it generally means they are not going to be able to conduct business in the US because of lack of SSN, documentation, etc.

I think most liberals would heartily agree with you on this point.  Illegal immigrants definitely have a harder time being successful in America for the exact reasons you've identified.  But the liberal's solution is to remove those barriers to help those people succeed, not turn the people away.  Let them, work, legally.  Let them pay taxes and buy property and raise families and become Americans.  Let the economy grow.

Quote
It also means that we don't have secure borders which makes it difficult to keep contraband, bad guys, etc out.

This one I don't understand yet.  Illegal immigrants rarely get here by hopping a fence, they come here legally, with visas, and then try to work instead of returning to their former country (e.g. Melania Trump).  If you want to secure the borders against contraband, stricter immigration laws are totally irrelevant. 

I can see how the two could be conflated.  The simplistic analysis is that if people are making it into the country without legal permission, then maybe illicit goods are too.  The fact that people and goods come to America by entirely different routes is a subtlety that is easily lost at a rally where people are holding up signs and chanting.

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Yes and no.  I am in favor of dramatically revamping the immigration plan to allow more people in with the caveat that they need to be more or less self-sufficient upon arrival with enough cash reserves, etc to care for themselves.

Is this the plan you think Trump supports?  Anyone can come here if they have cash on hand and can support themselves?  Because that's not the impression I've been getting at all.  I've been hearing about armed men rounding up hard-working and financially solvent workers who support families and who came here seeking freedom and opportunity, and sending them away at gunpoint.  That doesn't sound like the land of the free, to me, that sounds like an alt-right nightmare scenario.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 03:27:33 PM by sol »

Milizard

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2016, 02:08:46 PM »
It's hard to feel generous, when you are struggling yourself.  It's hard not to feel resentment in that situation, when you are sharing very limited resources with a large group that you feel don't belong.


For the record, I'm not a Republican, and rarely vote for them--this election included.  My parents were both legal immigrants.  I am able to overlook some illegal immigration, but I strongly dislike the extent of it, as well as the boldness of demands for support of illegals.

Lagom

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2016, 02:15:18 PM »
Illegal immigration is rather like the mythical welfare queen when it comes to boogeymen of the right. It's relatively more of a "problem," I suppose, but as Sol mentions, immigration is absolutely critical to our continued economic growth. Ways to do so legally are not up to the task of properly regulating the necessary influx.

Also, it's disingenuous to claim that you want to prevent illegal immigrants from being taken advantage of by coyotes or otherwise experiencing hardship. If anything, increased border security forces them into even more desperate and dangerous situations:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/25/us/devastating-picture-of-immigrants-dead-in-arizona-desert.html

Jack

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2016, 02:18:00 PM »
Can you explain to me why it's bad if they are illegal?

Sure, aside from just flouting our laws, it generally means they are not going to be able to conduct business in the US because of lack of SSN, documentation, etc.  They will have a hard time securing housing, so they generally live very densely in places not designed to support it, thus overburdening surrounding resources (ie schools).  And on and on and on. 

Got any reasons that couldn't be rendered moot by the stroke of a lawmaker's pen?

It also means that we don't have secure borders which makes it difficult to keep contraband, bad guys, etc out.  And it puts the illegals themselves at risk of fraud by coyote, etc.

If legal immigration were easy, only contraband and "bad guys" would try to cross the border illegally. Therefore, they'd stand out a lot more and be easier -- not harder -- to catch.

They should not be able to move to the US and immediately become a drain on our resources and social services; they need to have a job or means of supporting themselves and should not be able to access free social services for X years from their date of entry.

You just said above that they can't conduct business because of lack of documentation. Guess what: accessing social services requires documentation too! So which is it? You don't get to blatantly contradict yourself like that and maintain any sort of credibility.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 02:31:51 PM by Jack »

tct

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2016, 02:18:05 PM »
You tied economic woes with attitudes on immigration more than once. My stance on illegal immigration has nothing to do with economic woes. My economic situation is quite nice. I oppose illegal immigration because I want respect for the rule of  law followed by everyone, regardless of their color of skin.

As for your suggestion on making all immigration legal. I agree with the previous poster that immigrants should come and be self sufficient. And I do believe in some limits, to allow the melting pot effect.

Now question for you. Why do many/most always assume those who don't want illegal immigration are racist?

sol

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2016, 02:43:11 PM »
You tied economic woes with attitudes on immigration more than once.

To be clear, it was the incoming Republican President who tied economic woes to immigration, and I tried to point out why I don't think that makes any sense at all.  He deliberately chose a "blame the minority" campaign to appeal to rural white Americans who have otherwise legitimate economic concerns.  You don't make America great by stoking racism and bigotry for political effect.  Especially when that racism and bigotry is totally unrelated to the economic message you're trying to sell.

But like I said up top, in American there is significant overlap between people who hold racist views and people who have benefited the least from the global economy.  Manufacturing jobs were shipped overseas (by white dudes, not by immigrants) because US laws (also enacted by white dudes, not by immigrants) made it profitable to do so.  So why is Trump blaming immigrants for this problem?

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I oppose illegal immigration because I want respect for the rule of  law followed by everyone, regardless of their color of skin.

Isn't that sort of like saying you oppose gay marriage because you want the same marriage laws to apply to straight people and to gay people?  The current law deliberately targets immigrants only.  It's not somehow more fair to demand that they be disadvantaged in a way that you are not.  You didn't have to flee a drug cartel or a brutal dictatorship, so you're fine with punishing people who did?

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As for your suggestion on making all immigration legal. I agree with the previous poster that immigrants should come and be self sufficient.

So do you (or anyone else here) support deporting illegal immigrants who came here seeking freedom and opportunity, and succeeded in finding work and becoming self sufficient?  Because it sure looks like Trump does.

How long should a person have to become self sufficient, and how long should they have to stay that way before becoming American citizens?  Do they need to be MMM level self sufficient or ERE level self sufficient or Donald Trump level self sufficient?  Most American immigrants (like my ancestors) came here and promptly moved into ethnically segregated slums, remember?

I'm fine with a time limit under which new immigrants (legal or otherwise) cannot access social services.  We already have that here.  The problem is that some social services are needed to help people become self-sufficient.  They need transitional language services.  They need a place to live while depleting their savings and trying to find work.  They need paperwork that allows them to work and pay taxes.  They need bank accounts to store the money they earn. 

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Now question for you. Why do many/most always assume those who don't want illegal immigration are racist?

I tried to address this in my first post.  It looks racist because it is targeting minority communities.  We all seem to recognize that immigration is a vital part of America's future, but some of us seem to object to immigrants who are brown but not to immigrants who are white.  No one is talking about deporting people back to France, and I can guarantee you there are illegal French immigrants living among us for the exact same reasons there are illegal Mexican immigrants living among us.

And Trump made it look even MORE racist, when he specifically blamed brown people for the economic problems that were clearly caused by white people.  He appealed to rural voter's latent bigotry to turn out their votes.  It was Nixon's southern-strategy all over again, and apparently it works better in 2016 than it did in 1968.

sol

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2016, 02:49:29 PM »
We already have big problems with entitlement programs and with our ability (or lack thereof) to keep the programs going.  On top of all that, why make the problem worse?

I think most people agree that the easiest way to fix our entitlement programs is to have MORE PEOPLE paying in.  We need more young workers paying OASDI taxes to subsidize all of those old rich white male baby boomers who are draining the system.  The easiest way to get more young workers is to let people come here and work legally.

Increasing immigration is the way to SAVE entitlements, not a threat to entitlements.

TexasRunner

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2016, 02:50:13 PM »
They should not be able to move to the US and immediately become a drain on our resources and social services; they need to have a job or means of supporting themselves and should not be able to access free social services for X years from their date of entry.

You just said above that they can't conduct business because of lack of documentation. Guess what: accessing social services requires documentation too! So which is it? You don't get to blatantly contradict yourself like that and maintain any sort of credibility.

This isn't entirely true...  In little mexico in my town, there are pamphlets and advice in the supermarkets on how to get food stamps and medicaid while illegal.  I will try to find a photo for you.

There is also a billboard about getting car insurance that says:  No license, No problem!  (Hint: they sell you ghost insurance that vanishes when someone tries to collect).

I have six different friends (and dozens of acquaintances) whom I have personally witnessed getting chewed up by the immigration system.  It needs an overhaul.  Honestly it should have happened years ago, but that doesn't excuse the problems arising from illegal immigrants right now.  If we can secure our border, I feel it will be the first step towards fixing the rest of the program.

Just out of curiosity, have you looked at Canada's immigration policies?  Are they racist too?  What about any other developed country?

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2016, 02:53:10 PM »

I'm an open borders, free movement of people and goods sort of person. I think the root of the problem lies in our horrible immigration laws. That being said.....

I can see these poster's concern. People here illegally at one point willfully decided to ignore the laws of the country, and that attitude towards our nation's laws does not inspire confidence in their respect for the rule of law.
Emphasis mine.  For the posters who want to "deport them all"- what about those who DIDN'T willfully ignore the laws of the country?  Many "illegals" came here as children; often young enough they had no idea what was happening, but even if they were adolescents, they had no say in the decision. Why should they be deported from their home to a land they know nothing about?

I think it is a very hard thing to figure out. I think immigration SHOULD be legal, but I also don't believe in punishing children (or adults now if the action took place before they had anything to do with it).

I don't think we should have open borders, but we need to find a way to balance the issue. Are there any countries with open borders? We looked at moving to Canada, and it is extremely difficult; we weren't even looking at citizenship, just residency. Where is it easy to move to?

CNM

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2016, 02:59:35 PM »
The idea that "illegal immigrants" don't pay taxes is not accurate.  They do.  In fact, an argument can be made that they should be REIMBURSED as they are not able to receive the benefits of their tax contributions.  (ie. Medicare/Medicaid, social security, welfare, food stamps). 

Here's a USA Today article: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-01/study-undocumented-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes

And, regarding the argument that "illegals" are not contributing their fair share for public schools, that is also wrong.  School funding in the US is primarily determined by a district's property taxes.  Whether a person owns or rents, their payments are going in to the school system.


Chris22

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2016, 03:00:35 PM »
You just said above that they can't conduct business because of lack of documentation. Guess what: accessing social services requires documentation too! So which is it? You don't get to blatantly contradict yourself like that and maintain any sort of credibility.

They can't conduct legitimate business, but there is other business that they can conduct that doesn't require much documentation, or if it does, by the time it's found lacking it's too late. 

Taking advantage of public schools and emergency rooms are two that spring to mind.  Believe the public school often only requires an address, and if you find a landlord willing to look the other way, voila.

Chris22

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2016, 03:01:56 PM »
Is this the plan you think Trump supports?  Anyone can come here if they have cash on hand and can support themselves?  Because that's not the impression I've been getting at all.  I've been hearing about armed men rounding up hard-working and financially solvent workers who support families and who came here seeking freedom and opportunity, and sending them away at gunpoint.  That doesn't sound like the land of the free, to me, that sounds like an alt-right nightmare scenario.

I have no idea.  I have no idea what Trump supports.  I didn't vote for Trump.  I do know that he is willing to admit that illegal immigration is a problem, instead of using Hillary's tactic where she pretends that people discussing illegal immigration omit the first word and are incredible racists.

Chris22

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2016, 03:04:41 PM »
And, regarding the argument that "illegals" are not contributing their fair share for public schools, that is also wrong.  School funding in the US is primarily determined by a district's property taxes.  Whether a person owns or rents, their payments are going in to the school system.

Yes but what often happens is that a house intended for a normal size family ends up with multiple illegal families occupying it, so rather than sending 1-2-3 kids to school, it sends 3-4x that many.  And those kids are often the ones that speak little/no English and end up being an incredible drain on the school system, requiring much more attention that detracts from the overall resources available.

CNM

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2016, 03:05:15 PM »

This isn't entirely true...  In little mexico in my town, there are pamphlets and advice in the supermarkets on how to get food stamps and medicaid while illegal.  I will try to find a photo for you.

There is also a billboard about getting car insurance that says:  No license, No problem!  (Hint: they sell you ghost insurance that vanishes when someone tries to collect).


It is true that certain states will allow persons state benefits (not federal) regardless of their immigration status.  That may be what you're talking about. 

Your statement about car insurance is interesting.  Seems like the best idea would be to allow undocumented immigrants the ability to purchase insurance and get a drivers' license.  That would solve 2 problems: (1) having illegals "float under the radar" and be unidentified persons and (2) allowing all persons to get the benefits of paid for insurance.

tct

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2016, 03:07:24 PM »
Sol, you have a lot to say and make a lot of points. I'm kind of simple, and my head hurts just thinking of addressing everything you just said. You asked why some of us are anti-immigrant. I just wanted to help answer your question. I think there are many reasons why different people oppose illegal immigration. I for the most part just want respect for the rule of law. I don't care if you're French, Mexican, etc..

chesebert

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2016, 03:08:25 PM »
Straight from Obama's administration:

Illegal Alien
Also known as an "Undocumented Alien," is an alien who has entered the United States illegally and is deportable if apprehended, or an alien who entered the United States legally but who has fallen "out of status" and is deportable.

Can't we all just enforce the god damn law.

sol

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2016, 03:14:58 PM »
instead of using Hillary's tactic where she pretends that people discussing illegal immigration omit the first word and are incredible racists.

This has come up several times now so I don't think it's an accidental misunderstanding.  Democrats are not racist for pointing out that Trump blamed brown people for problems caused by white people.  He clearly race-baited the entire election.  Is our memory so short that we've already forgotten?  Hell, even Paul Ryan called him the "textbook definition of a racist" after Trump claimed that a person (in this case a judge) was unable to do his job because of his ethnic background.

Don't pretend Democrats were making this stuff up.  There is video tape.  I think the Republicans are starting at a clear disadvantage, if they're going to try to make the case that their policies are not racist when their leader is so clearly a racist.  Or at least plays one on tv.

Chris22

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2016, 03:18:05 PM »
instead of using Hillary's tactic where she pretends that people discussing illegal immigration omit the first word and are incredible racists.

This has come up several times now so I don't think it's an accidental misunderstanding.  Democrats are not racist for pointing out that Trump blamed brown people for problems caused by white people.  He clearly race-baited the entire election.  Is our memory so short that we've already forgotten?  Hell, even Paul Ryan called him the "textbook definition of a racist" after Trump claimed that a person (in this case a judge) was unable to do his job because of his ethnic background.

Don't pretend Democrats were making this stuff up.  There is video tape.  I think the Republicans are starting at a clear disadvantage, if they're going to try to make the case that their policies are not racist when their leader is so clearly a racist.  Or at least plays one on tv.


Long before Trump ever talked about running it was popular for Democrats to pretend "anti-illegal immigration" was the same as "anti-immigration" or "anti-Mexican."  This isn't new, and it's a separate issue from the fact that Trump said some pretty terrible things about Mexicans.  But even then, I think when he was talking about Mexican rapists and murderers, he specifically meant illegals, given that incident in CA with the woman who was killed by the illegal.

Jack

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2016, 03:20:26 PM »
You just said above that they can't conduct business because of lack of documentation. Guess what: accessing social services requires documentation too! So which is it? You don't get to blatantly contradict yourself like that and maintain any sort of credibility.

They can't conduct legitimate business, but there is other business that they can conduct that doesn't require much documentation, or if it does, by the time it's found lacking it's too late. 

Taking advantage of public schools and emergency rooms are two that spring to mind.  Believe the public school often only requires an address, and if you find a landlord willing to look the other way, voila.

As the post directly above yours pointed out, the landlord is paying the property tax (which pays for the schools) and passing that cost along in the rent. That means the illegal immigrant is paying for the schools just as legitimately as everyone else.

Emergency room care is a real problem, I'll grant, but it's not anywhere near a large enough one to justify all the expense -- and all the hate -- Republicans are directing at illegal immigration. You've got to do better than just that.

More to the point, you ignored the real issue: if the problem is documentation, then we could insta-solve it by simply giving them documentation!

sol

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2016, 03:23:23 PM »
Straight from Obama's administration:

Illegal Alien
Also known as an "Undocumented Alien," is an alien who has entered the United States illegally and is deportable if apprehended, or an alien who entered the United States legally but who has fallen "out of status" and is deportable.

Can't we all just enforce the god damn law.

I assume you're aware that Obama's administration deported more illegal immigrants than any other President in history.   He's been enforcing that law more than anyone else.   http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

You want more enforcement than that?

Proud Foot

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2016, 03:25:01 PM »
I believe you can be against illegal immigration and not be anti-immigration.  I do think things need to change so it is easier for them to go through the process to come here legally so they can come here and be able to fully participate in our society.  I don't think the ones currently here illegally should be deported but I don't believe in straight up amnesty and making them legal residents/citizens. There needs to be a way they can begin the process of becoming legal without having to leave the country and trying to get back in.  If they are here committing crimes then go ahead and kick them out.

To clarify, I am not a republican and my family immigrated here legally.

Thanks for saying this 2B1S.  I have been curious during all of the amnesty talks what the opinions are of immigrants who came here legally.

Chris22

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2016, 03:25:47 PM »
You just said above that they can't conduct business because of lack of documentation. Guess what: accessing social services requires documentation too! So which is it? You don't get to blatantly contradict yourself like that and maintain any sort of credibility.

They can't conduct legitimate business, but there is other business that they can conduct that doesn't require much documentation, or if it does, by the time it's found lacking it's too late. 

Taking advantage of public schools and emergency rooms are two that spring to mind.  Believe the public school often only requires an address, and if you find a landlord willing to look the other way, voila.

As the post directly above yours pointed out, the landlord is paying the property tax (which pays for the schools) and passing that cost along in the rent. That means the illegal immigrant is paying for the schools just as legitimately as everyone else.

Correct, however they are often living illegally in houses that are not zoned for as many people as live there.  If resources are structured on a specific zoned density, and you wildly exceed that density, you'll overwhelm the resources.  And we're not talking about the odd idiot family that has 15 kids (though if that was prevalent it would have the same effect); we're talking about illegals which tend to do this on a much larger scale.

Quote
Emergency room care is a real problem, I'll grant, but it's not anywhere near a large enough one to justify all the expense -- and all the hate -- Republicans are directing at illegal immigration. You've got to do better than just that.

No I don't.

Quote
More to the point, you ignored the real issue: if the problem is documentation, then we could insta-solve it by simply giving them documentation!

If the problem is people don't have enough money, then we could insta-solve it by simply giving them money!  Clearly that would cause lots of its own problems yes?  Same here. 

Johnez

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2016, 03:29:34 PM »
Illegal immigration is bad.

Not immigration.

Can you explain to me why it's bad if they are illegal?

Would you feel the same way if Congress changed the rules to grant a legal path to citizenship for anybody who wanted to come here?  Like if they just made all of the illegal ones legal, would they still be bad?

I mean marijuana is illegal too, is that what makes it bad?

Lots of reasons:

Criminals
Drugs
Terrorists
Human trafficking

This is a country with borders. The borders, like the membrane of a cell let what's good in, and keeps the bad out. Too much of anything is bad as well, concentrated, isolated groups have a harder time assimilating. Assimilation is an important step toward success and avoiding pit falls (unemployment, crime, gangs, etc.) For example of problems that stem from these issues, go check out the violence in Los Angeles and Santa Ana right now. Other places like the ghettoes in France filling with Muslims give another dimension to the argument that too many of the same group of people simply present problems. Unchecked immigration and/or illegal immigration is bad for the country, bad for the immigrants that are here or are coming, and doesn't solve any problems.

I get that the people that hate illegal immigration are often racist, xenophobic, or bigoted-but regardless of how SOME people pushing for reform think or act, this IS a problem, and it does need sorting out.

A queation-how does unchecked immigration, or illegal immigration benefit the nation or immigrants themselves?

Spitfire

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2016, 03:29:47 PM »
I've been hearing about armed men rounding up hard-working and financially solvent workers who support families and who came here seeking freedom and opportunity, and sending them away at gunpoint. 

That's just fear mongering. His priority is to get the criminals out. He wants to get the "hard workers" documented. What he is against is a blanket amnesty that will include keeping the illegal immigrant criminals in the country. The bad hombres.   

dogboyslim

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2016, 03:31:10 PM »
To be clear, it was the incoming Republican President who tied economic woes to illegal immigration, and I tried to point out why I don't think that makes any sense at all. 

I listened to what Trump said.  He referred to illegal immigration.  I still didn't vote for him for a host of reasons, but if you are going to complain, get it right.

My understanding of the problem is thus:  Corporations want free trade.  Free trade means companies can outsource to countries where they don't have worker protections.  low-skill jobs go overseas.  Workers are used to having nice safe jobs that pay reasonably well, so going out in a field at minimum wage is unappealing and so they look for a while for something better but can't find it and quit looking.  Migrant workers come in, many illegally here, and start taking the jobs, and they are perceived as using the social services that the former workers see as being paid for by their taxes.  They conclude that their taxes are so high because they have to pay for the migrant workers who are here illegally, and since taxes are a major expense item, they are the cause of the economic woes, aka higher taxes.

Now enter Trump's message.  Your jobs got shipped overseas to be done by low skill folks at below minimum wages because of crappy trade deals like NAFTA.  Then illegals come here and work under the table for lower than minimum wage and are a drain on social services all while not paying taxes.

Translation of Trumps message to these rural folks:

I'll renegotiate NAFTA et/al::Corporations won't find advantage in offshoring jobs, low-skill decent middle class jobs will return.
I'll remove the current illegals::The drain on social services will decline, so the tax burden will be lower and I'll be better off.
We'll build a wall::All the drug trade and violence will be reduced, and the illegal alien criminal population will drop.

These three represent the reason most of my R blue collar friends voted trump.  Not one of them sees this message as racist.  I see it as perhaps misguided, but I don't see it as racist either.  The supreme court nominations are why most of my well educated R friends voted trump.  That didn't seem racist either.

astvilla

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2016, 03:41:15 PM »
Curtailing immigration was the central theme of Trump's campaign.  He specifically blamed immigration for economic hardship in some parts of the country, and I just don't get it.  I'm hoping someone can explain it for me in a way that makes sense.

I don't mean to discredit the economic concerns of rural Americans.  If you live in a town that used to thrive because of a factory or a mill that is closed, that sucks for you.  But it's not brown people who did that, it's white people.  Specifically, it's rich white male baby boomers who did that.  Our economy is basically determined by the interplay of government regulations and private corporations.  Over the past 20 years, the rich white male boomer CEOs of the largest US companies have made decisions that are profitable to them because of regulations enacted by the rich white male boomer politicans.  And I'm not even blaming any particular party for that, Clinton and GWB and Trump were all born in 1946.

But Trump tapped into that simmering economic malaise and then inexplicably tied it to brown people.  It may just be coincidental that the US citizens most hurt by the rise of global capitalism are the same US citizens who also hold racist and protectionist views, but it's definitely not a coincidence that Trump capitalized by tying the two together.  He deliberately stoked American racism as the cause of America's economic problems.

That's a bullshit way to win office.  That's classic "blame-the-Jews" style campaigning, singling out a specific ethnic group as the scapegoat for all of your country'es economic problems, and it's just as wrong today as it was when Germany tried it.  If you want to improve the economy, blame those rich white male baby boomers and force changes in government or changes in corporations.  I'm not sure how a border wall is going to help with this problem.

Quite the contrary, actually, I think we NEED immigrants.  Those people buy goods and pay taxes.  US population growth would be negative if we didn't have immigration, and it's basically impossible to hit our targeted economic growth rates if we have a shrinking population.  Ask Japan how that worked out for them.  If you don't like illegal immigrants, but recognize the need for immigration to support our growing economy, why not just make them all legal?  The alternative is that all those rural white voters better start cranking out babies a whole hell of a lot faster than they have been.

From where I'm sitting out here on the liberal left coast, the Republican opposition to immigration just looks like racism against brown people.  Immigration is what made America great in the first place, and it's a necessary part of our future.  It's how your family and my family got here.  We need people willing to work hard to build our country up, and all of this talk of building walls to fix our economy seems exactly backwards.  I agree the economy could use some fixing, but shutting out immigrants seems like the least helpful way to go about it.

So if you're an ardent Trump supporter who felt a wave of warm fuzzy feelings every time Trump said something like "They're taking our jobs" then I'd love to hear your position on this topic in more detail.  Did a Mexican person outsource your company to India?  Did a Mexican move your factory out of Detroit?  Did a Mexican person repeal the Glass-Steagall act, or make mortgages too easy to get, or invade a middle eastern country?  I think there is plenty of blame to go around for why the US economy is not as strong as it could be, but none of it seems to fall to brown people.  So why all the love for that big beautiful border wall?

Well first immigration today is different than immigration decades/centuries ago.  Back then, America didn't have 50 states, immigrants were mostly white and there was racism back then too (think Chinese Exclusion Act, Japanese internment).  America then was being built. 

You also have to question if growing population is always a good thing.  Can it just go up infinitely forever?  Having 3 kids today is considered selfish. 

I've seen immigration hurt more than help.  Though Trump voters are more concerned with illegal immigrants, and rightly so because of the rich white masters exploiting them to kick out lazy "white trash deplorables", I know H1B's taking jobs away from American citizens or general outsourcing (even Disney).  Although H1B's work hard, good employees, they are exploited to live 3-4 in a room like a dorm, it's quite bad, and a system designed to avoid hiring American citizens, which helps create a bad overall economic climate for Americans.  That's why FB, Google, Microsoft want more H1B's and exploit it.  I know an engineer who complains how there's too many engineers now.  Opportunity isn't as plentiful with a lot of new immigrants competing.

Globalization also plays a role.  And immigrants today don't integrate as well.  They form small enclaves, isolate themselves, and have their own rules.  Technology plays a role in that.  WHen my parents came over 35 years ago, you got news from home by mail, you made 1 phone call a year back home, no Chinese newspapers, no Chinese anything, you were FORCED to learn English, integrate, watch American movies, eat American food, there wasn't a choice.  Today with technology, skype, internet, immigrants can make their own mini-China/India/Mexico/Middle East/Portugal/Korea, etc and isolate themselves.  You don't even need to know English anymore as Spanish is available everywhere.  They don't always respect rule of law and don't always talk to white people.  Basically, white people feel left out wah. Americans just want immigrants to respect rule of law and procedure, not sure that's a bad thing.  Oh and smile, say hello, be polite, don't spit on the floor, don't shoot/massacre others, don't crash planes into buildings, and make America your home.  Citizenship means America is your home, it's your country.  Many newer immigrants have closer ties to homeland than immigrants before and see citizenship as a right to work, not home.  Though this is a global thing overall with human migrations.  I fault technology as part of the reason for this division and separation of ethnic groups.

Northwestie

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2016, 03:42:34 PM »
If the Trump message was that surgically clean I might believe the defense.  But it wasn't.   Do I need to put together the list of his vile language against minorities, immigrants, women, the disabled, etc.?  Maybe there is a subgroup of Trump supporters who never heard these pronouncements (I doubt it) or chose to ignore it (likely) - -but then there is the other subgroup who just ate it up, fired up with really ugly chants and t-shirts, and now feel emboldened.

The most discouraging thing to me was the vile language he used along with scapegoating.  It wasn't even a dog whistle - it was loud and clear.  And yet - so many chose to ignore it.  He is not a man of upstanding character.

Yea, yea.  I know.  Hillary was a player and many didn't like her for this.  I get it.  But the insulting language put forth by Trump has no place in civil discourse.  We'll see if this new threshold now becomes the ceiling instead of the floor.

Jack

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2016, 03:44:06 PM »
Correct, however they are often living illegally in houses that are not zoned for as many people as live there.

And whose fault is that? The answer is that it's the city's fault for failing to enforce the zoning code or the landlord's fault for ignoring the zoning code at least as much as it is the immigrants'.

Your arguments are still weak. Try again.

human

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2016, 03:48:51 PM »
"Can you explain to me why it's bad if they are illegal?"

Immigration should generally be mutually beneficial to the immigrant and the country (with some exceptions e.g. humanitarian reasons).

Pretty much all developed countries control immigration.  Illegal immigration is unchecked immigration.

Legal immigration allows us to:
Verify the immigrant is not a criminal or an enemy of our country (some 9/11 terrorists were illegal immigrants)

See if their skills match a need/job whether it be engineering/farming/hospitality/etc.

Fairness - it is unfair to send someone home who wants to enter/stay legally when another ignores the rules.

Control the overall numbers - we don't want to over stress our country's established infrastructure.  We probably shouldn't let in many more people beyond what we can support with our economy/jobs.

Anyone who 'hops the fence' or violates their visa becomes a problem due to one or more reasons listed above.

Wow, that is a surprising bit of ignorance. None of the hijackers were actually illegal, they all some sort of visa-document allowing them.

Now I suppose someone could say that this fact should lead to immigration reform but everyone seems more focused on illegal (in bold caps) immigration.

StreetCat

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2016, 04:11:17 PM »
I think most people agree that the easiest way to fix our entitlement programs is to have MORE PEOPLE paying in.  We need more young workers paying OASDI taxes to subsidize all of those old rich white male baby boomers who are draining the system.  The easiest way to get more young workers is to let people come here and work legally.

Increasing immigration is the way to SAVE entitlements, not a threat to entitlements.
What you said is true if those younger people are paying a lot of money into the system.  It's not applicable to illegal immigrants, most of whom are not high wage earners.  That's why it makes sense to have a well thought out immigration policy which allows skill labor immigration instead of legalizing all illegal immigrants.

You cannot save the entitlement programs by having millions of minimum wage workers paying low amounts of tax into the system.  Even if the entitlement programs get inflows for the time being, when those younger workers get old and then become a drain on the system, who will pay for them?

human

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2016, 04:42:19 PM »
You want get rid of illegal immigration? Go after the businesses that employ them, oh wait that would ruin the economy and businesses wouldn't survive without them. You could also create a living wage.

dividendman

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2016, 04:52:14 PM »
TL:DR - 1) People think, including many legal immigrants, that coming in illegally is unfair, 2) People are against legal immigration because they think it negatively affects them economically 3) Immigrant communities become large enough that they don't, or are perceived to not, adopt the values of America (liberal democratic values).

Sol, let me take a swing at this although I'm not anti-immigrant or a Republican.

I think, if the facts are to be absorbed, it is a massive positive having legal immigration of skilled folks in industries that need the labor. It is also a massive positive advantage in unskilled industries that need work - but generally you can fill unskilled labor with your own population.

I'm from Canada (an ex pat on the west cost of the US now), and in Canada, we are dutifully increasing *legal* immigration of people in various industries and skill-sets, as well as families and investors. This has happened with both Conservative and Liberal governments.

(2) Why is immigration so beneficial to societies (especially skilled immigration)? The simple answer is that some other country paid for the expensive part of these people (paid for their upbringing and early education and usually heavily subsidizes their higher education) and now that they are in the workforce, the country they immigrate TO gets to reap all of the tax benefits and skills.

In fact, Canada has been admonished by the Haitian government several times because we "steal" the people they spend money in educating. To a lesser extent, Canada begs it's doctors not to go to the States for money.

(1) I think, generally, unskilled immigration is more of a toss-up in how beneficial it is. Why? Because instead of importing legal or illegal unskilled labor what should happen is that the wages of these jobs should rise until legal immigrants or natives, will do them and the commensurate cost of goods should also rise. This will necessarily lead to either government subsidies of food and more progressive tax policies lest everyone at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder starve.

Now that we've established that immigration is basically good (especially skilled immigration) let's figure out why people don't like it.

Illegal immigration has been covered. I agree that people should not immigrate illegally. From a fairness perspective I can see people saying: I had to wait in line, as did many others, and they should do. From an economic perspective, going back to (1) above, I think that it ending illegal immigration will either force more progressive policies, more legal immigration, or both so I'm all for ending it.

Now, for legal immigration, I think the vast majority of the country is for it, and maybe even for it in larger numbers. But the people who aren't have this basic argument: Why don't we take care of our own people first before letting others in? They don't understand (2) above in that the more legal (especially skilled) immigrants you get, the more you're essentially taking the tax dollars of other countries. I don't get how people miss this.

The Asian American unemployment rate in 2016 is 4.0 % and these folks disproportionately come here via skilled immigration (compared to 4.4% unemployment for whites, 8.5% for blacks and 5.8% for Hispanic - who are more likely to be born here, I couldn't find the first generation immigrant unemployment breakdown by race, but it's VERY low, meaning they aren't using government handouts to the degree that native born folks are, so having the immigrant here is doubly beneficial). This is according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm

Finally, I think people look at that lack of assimilation in some societies and don't like it. I am also against it. I don't like that once immigrant populations get large enough many of them wall themselves off in their own communities creating a divide. I would love it if the immigration policy somehow forced new immigrants not to just go to Chinatown or Indiatown or whatever and instead mix in with the American culture and adopt liberal democratic values. This is a hard policy to implement though, and I think these divides do end up hurting the country and also the perception that immigrants want to change the values of the country rather than adapt to them.

So, that's my guess for why they think the way they do.


StreetCat

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2016, 05:05:26 PM »
From a fairness perspective I can see people saying: I had to wait in line, as did many others, and they should do.
I was a legal immigrant in the US before I became a naturalized citizen.  And I don't think that people should have to wait in line just because I did.

If we can figure out a way for people to skip the line and still contribute to the well being of the nation while not causing adverse effects, then I'm all for it.

The problem I have is that uncontrolled illegal immigration doesn't make sense to me in terms of economics and law and order.

tonysemail

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2016, 05:54:59 PM »
there's a political reason, which is that you want your voting bloc / ethnicity to retain a majority of votes.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2016, 01:11:50 PM »
Is this true?


Crushtheturtle

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2016, 01:28:17 PM »
What are "brown people"?  If I stay too long at the beach tomorrow will I become one?

In the country where I live the only penalty for over-staying a tourist visa is a small fine payable upon return following your next exit from the country. Skin shade is not an issue.

I can't see any reason not to allow freedom of migration of people to anywhere on our planet.

Do my tax dollars go to propping them up on the social safety net? That might be a reason.

daverobev

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2016, 01:43:40 PM »
Is this true?

Depends. Marry a Canadian, it's easy. Have a degree in a certain field etc etc, it's easy (bonus points if you speak French as well as English). There is a points system for general immigration. Canada is certainly one of the easier Western countries to come to.

daverobev

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Re: anti-immigrant Republicans, please help me understand
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2016, 01:58:59 PM »
Non-American, non-Republican (I guess no non-Americans are republican, heh). I'll give some thoughts. I had a good debate with a friend about this kind of stuff a couple of years back.

My friend is of the idealogical opinion that migration should be unlimited. And while I agree with that in theory (in a perfect world), we all know it's impossible - if the West opened its borders tomorrow, everything would collapse because it would be inundated.

The biggest problem I see is that, like exporting your manufacturing to China (where pollution is high because standards are low, and quality tends to be lower because people only compare on price), you export a lot of the costs of educating people. Western countries DO 'cherry pick', and it basically means that the best and brightest all over the world leave whatever country, and go to (Canada, the US, UK, etc). That is terribly unfair, and it holds those countries back.

In terms of *illegal* immigration - of course you should be deported. 100%. The problem is if you do NOT, you are seen as a soft touch. Look at Germany - they said, oh, yeah, we'll take lots of immigrants and suddenly - as if by magic! - a metric fuckton of migrants appeared. Overwhelming small cities' infrastructure and generally pissing a load of people off. Now, pissing people off isn't the problem - but overloading services, ghettoisation, spikes in crime - that's bad. It breaks down the fabric of society. And that is LEGAL migration.

If it's illegal but people do it anyway, the law is broken. You have to uphold the law, or what's the point? Either retract the law, or amend it and enforce it. Else it just makes a mockery of the system. And then the papers do sob stories when someone's been living illegally for 15, 20 years... Yeah. It's shit, and sad, and horrible to be deported after you have actually made your home somewhere. No doubt about it. But you had NO RIGHT to be there.

It is for the government to work out what to do with those people. Amnesty? Cool. Deport? Cool. That doesn't matter - but making the circle whole does.

Illegal immigrants are a massive problem - they pull down wages. Fat white people don't want to clean toilets, they'd rather get benefits - that's a problem. It's a three way problem - the illegal doing the work for dirt cheap, the lazy person, and the company/government for not doing the legal thing.

So here's the thing - in Canada, there was a "Temporary Foreign Worker" program. When companies "couldn't" find an employee to sell coffee at Tim's, they just apply to bring in a Philippino worker. Um. That's not capitalism. The company should just offer higher wages, and charge more for the coffee to support it. If you have to, pay someone $30 an hour to sell coffee! If that's what it takes! Unless there are literally no unemployed people within 30 miles (or whatever - I mean, at $30 an hour, loads of people would move, right?).

I am anti migration when it has a detrimental effect on the country losing the migrant ('stealing' doctors and nurses - train your bloody own! Literally, instead of cramming too much shit in, and having not enough students, how about, oh, free education, increasing the number of positions?). I'm anti when there are local workers available, but need $20 an hour not $10 because they have a family to support. Other than that, migrate away - legally.