Author Topic: American Empire Ending  (Read 8774 times)

chevy1956

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2021, 03:55:30 PM »
More and more it is looking to be the dawning of the age of China, I am not sure that is good for anyone living in the western world.

China's evil, totalitarian, Communist regime  is inimical to human liberty.

America is going to the dogs. I can't stand the racist Trump populist culture that has been pushed within America. China is even worse. At least enough people woke up and voted out the crazy. That option doesn't exist in China.

pecunia

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2021, 04:31:08 PM »
Now let's see - What caused some of the other countries to go down hill?

Here's what Wikipedia said about Argentina, a country that was very rich in past times.

Beginning in the 1930s, however, the Argentine economy deteriorated notably.[3] The single most important factor in this decline has been political instability since 1930, when a military junta took power, ending seven decades of civilian constitutional government.[5] In macroeconomic terms, Argentina was one of the most stable and conservative countries until the Great Depression, after which it turned into one of the most unstable.[6] Despite this, up until 1962 the Argentine per capita GDP was higher than that of Austria, Italy, Japan and of its former colonial master, Spain.[7] Successive governments from the 1930s to the 1970s pursued a strategy of import substitution to achieve industrial self-sufficiency, but the government's encouragement of industrial growth diverted investment from agricultural production, which fell dramatically

Military Junta - Looks like something to watch out for.  I guess if people do something like storm the capital, then we gotta watch out.

I'm thinking the US can get into bad trouble if you follow the wrong money path.  US used to be a net exporter and not so much of an importer.  Now it's flipped.  I can't see doing that forever.  The money is going out.  Looks like they really bumped up the money supply last year too.  Not to good to print more than you have or you end up like the Weimar Republic and  we may have the equivalent of Zimbabwe's trillion dollar bill. 

Some countries that never seem to have their act together are run by crooks, men with no honor.  They say what they need to to be elected and then proceed to do very well for themselves.  I guess not too much really changes for the voters.  This actually sounds kind of familiar.  Both parties really, but I'm thinking more Republican right now after the Georgia Senate runoff.

One of the things that has really helped America along is that education has been provided.  People don't seem to think public education is so important any more.  They make it really hard for people to go to school beyond high school.  Education is an investment in the country's future.  It's one where you need to keep investing or the results will no longer be there.  People can't do productive stuff if they don't know how and have no opportunity to find out how.

Let's look at successful countries.  Everybody seems to be working at some sort of productive activity.  They don't waste their most important resource, their people.  Here in the US there seems to be a different idea about this.  However, they are happy to have you take your stuff and live in a car.

Seems like if the people were more healthy, they would be more productive too.  Isn't the health care thing just common sense for good business?  If it was really available to people, I'll bet we would have all sorts of productivity gains.

I don't really like the idea of living in an empire.  Empires are all wound up about military stuff.  They are more like Sparta than Athens.  I think we should be encouraging innovation and production rather than the military thing.  If these swords are beat into plowshares, we can raise food to sell.  The brain power dedicated to making weapons of mass destruction can be devoted to making stuff that the people of the whole world can use.  For example making safe small nuclear power plants to solve global warming.  I think Russia and China would probably welcome it if we had some good stuff to sell that they could use.

Maybe if the empire ended and we really got into being a trading republic instead, we would be better off.

TrMama

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2021, 06:20:10 PM »

1. Abolish the electorial college and replace it with a popular vote.

2. End the two-party system. Typically the democracies with more than two political parties do better and represent their citizens better. My own country (Denmark) has around 10 political parties going from the far left to the far right. So everybody can find a political that suits their tastes and cooperation between parties is 100% required to pass any laws.

I agree with the problems, but I disagree with your solutions.

1) There is good reason to keep the electoral college. It is necessary to keep 50 states united and represented. There is a lot of history on why it was created and what it meant for the union. What needs to be fixed is the balance of electoral votes (more in line with how it was originally founded). And more importantly, fix the gerrymandering of the districts. Both of these would be relatively easy. Popular vote would release a whole new can of worms.

2) Two party system is a mathematical end result of "first past the post" voting. We will not end the two party system until you stop the FPTP voting structure. I would support something like ranked choice voting instead.

The bottom line is that you need to interpret the US more like the EU and less like Denmark. It is too big to manage in a democratic way like you would a single EU country. Now, if we were authoritarian, it would be a different story!

The bolded above is incorrect. Canada also has a FPTP system at both the provincial and federal levels but still easily manages to support multiple parties. There are 5 major federal parties and each province has 2-4 parties.

As for the original question, of course the US is not ending. It's still a rich, powerful country with a large population. However, I'd argue that on the international level the US has lost some credibility as a global leader.

PDXTabs

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2021, 07:06:15 PM »
Do you see yourself moving abroad once FIRED to escape the collapse  ?

Yup, my short list of possible locations includes:
  • Portugal
  • Scotland (I already have the right passport)
  • Albania
  • Chile
  • Uruguay
  • Colombia
  • Nicaragua
  • Mexico
  • Ukraine
  • Paraguay
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 01:55:41 PM by PDXTabs »

StashingAway

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2021, 06:41:13 AM »
The history of the electoral college and how it played a part in forming the United States is quite interesting. I don't have the ability to summarize it well in a forum format, but quite literally the US would not exist without it (it was a prime mover in getting the smaller colonies on board with joining the larger ones). Overall, I still think it is a great concept, it just needs to be adjusted to fit modern population dynamics. When it was made, the disparity between rural and city voting weight was relatively minor.

We know the reason the Electoral College exists because the writers of the Constitution explained their reasoning in the Federalist Papers, and this is not correct. "To give small states a voice and prevent them from being overwhelmed by the larger states" is the reason the Senate has two senators per state regardless of size.

The Electoral College exists because the founders mistrusted the average lowly uneducated commoner with the weighty task of choosing a president. Also in 1787 there was simply no feasible way to run an election / campaign across ALL 13 STATES!!!!!1! But they didn't just want politicians to be able to pick one either.

So instead they introduced a middleman: people directly elect educated elites from their district who they know and trust to be capable of representing their interests and are actually capable of making educated decisions, and those Electors spend several days riding their horses over to New York City (later Philadelphia) to meet the candidates and eventually vote on which one they wanted.

Quote
It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.

A role which has been made entirely moot by technological advancement and all the states deciding to move to a system where people vote for which president they want and then the state selects Electors who will vote for that president. The Electoral College is a vestige of history, and serves no purpose today except to occasionally accidentally deny the will of the people.

And as a side note, I want to give an example of why you cannot compare Germany to the US:





Furthermore, Germany has been dealing with their own brand of idealistic nationalism (same with the UK) and aren't exactly trending toward moderation.

I didn't intend to say that the US is exactly like the EU, or even close to it. And I certainly think we should strive for what EU countries offer in the form of social services. I'm not trying to defend it, I'm only trying to be realistic about what can and should be done, as well as be cautious about throwing away the baby with the bathwater. I think most of the problems we are facing currently have to do with social media.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 06:47:30 AM by StashingAway »

sherr

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2021, 08:09:06 AM »
And as a side note, I want to give an example of why you cannot compare Germany to the US:

I think you replied to the wrong person? I never said the US wasn't like the EU, I was just correcting your incorrect assertion that the point of the Electoral College was to give small states a voice. That was never the intent, Congress is intended to balance the will of the people (House) with the will of the States (Senate). The Electoral College exists for two reasons:

1) Because in 1787 most people were almost completely uneducated (as we would define it) and the founders didn't trust them to do a good job directly choose a president. They thought that that ability should be restricted to educated elites who would do a better job than the common rabble.
2) Because waging a country-wide campaign across all 13 states was a completely impractical in 1787. There simply was not enough time for the candidates to ride their horses all around and tell people what they stood for and kiss babies and whatever, and even if they tried there would be no way to know that they weren't telling the people in Virginia X and the people in North Carolina the opposite. A national campaign at the time would have been entirely reliant on the editorializing of your local newspaper, which does not lead to people making an educated decision.

The electoral college has no modern point and is an accident of history. Any attempt to frame it as "protecting the small states" is a back-rationalization to explain why it should keep on denying the will of the people in your team's favor (not saying you're doing this, but maybe the people who've told you that are). There's no guarantee at all that it will over-weight the opinion of the less-populous states, it just happens to at this point in history. If Texas flips to leaning Democratic for example then it would suddenly start over-weighting the opinion of the large states.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 08:24:34 AM by sherr »

Metta

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2021, 08:12:31 AM »
As always, I wonder  where “abroad” people think  they will move? Will Canada take all of us?

Exactly.

J Boogie

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2021, 09:50:02 AM »

The electoral college has no modern point and is an accident of history. Any attempt to frame it as "protecting the small states" is a back-rationalization to explain why it should keep on denying the will of the people in your team's favor (not saying you're doing this, but maybe the people who've told you that are). There's no guarantee at all that it will over-weight the opinion of the less-populous states, it just happens to at this point in history. If Texas flips to leaning Democratic for example then it would suddenly start over-weighting the opinion of the large states.

Since Texas has been voting roughly 1.3% on average more democratic every 4 years for the past couple decades, it stands to reason that we're roughly 3 contests away from a Texas flip if demographic trends continue.

Naturally parties can evolve and dynamic candidates can make different appeals but overall I think we'll see the republicans start to warm up to the idea of getting rid of the electoral college - that or they'll just focus campaigns intensely on suburban TX.

As rural areas stagnate economically and fall behind, we'll also see intensifying competition for the suburban vote, which I don't think will necessarily be a bad thing as suburban voters tend to be fairly reasonable. I think we'll look back on the electoral college as having provided the rural American right a far longer window of opportunity to wield influence than otherwise, but a window that closed nonetheless.

RetiredAt63

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2021, 09:51:57 AM »
As always, I wonder  where “abroad” people think  they will move? Will Canada take all of us?

Exactly.

Americans I know who have moved to Canada have said it was a long and rigourous process.  It is a points system.  Good luck.


PDXTabs

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2021, 10:13:00 AM »
As always, I wonder  where “abroad” people think  they will move? Will Canada take all of us?

Exactly.

Portugal, Albania, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, and half of the Caribbean will all happily take FIRE folks with appropriate investments. Those are just off the top my head, I'm sure that there are more.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 10:22:11 AM by PDXTabs »

StashingAway

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2021, 10:49:48 AM »
I think you replied to the wrong person?

Indeed I did.

Regardless, I'm not sold that the electoral college is an accident of history and therefore should be tossed. Or, rather, I'm not sold that it wasn't functional beyond technological limitations.

The only way the larger colonies could get the smaller ones on board was to give them representation on the courts. The USA quite literally wouldn't exist without this concession. I, for one, do not want New York City and LA and handful of cities to elect the most powerful position of the Executive branch. One of the foundations of modern government is to not let the powerful overrun the weak.

One way around this would be to significantly reduce the size of the national government. Another way is to re-structure the electoral college to have similar proportions of the 13 colonies (this would bring it closer to a popular vote).

It's not a hill I would die on; I could be wrong about this. But I am hesitant to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

sherr

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2021, 11:08:05 AM »
Regardless, I'm not sold that the electoral college is an accident of history and therefore should be tossed. Or, rather, I'm not sold that it wasn't functional beyond technological limitations.

If you want to provide evidence that the EC was a concession to get small states on board, then, you know, feel free to do it. Without that I'd say the Federalist 68 speaks for itself.

iris lily

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2021, 11:34:49 AM »
As always, I wonder  where “abroad” people think  they will move? Will Canada take all of us?

Exactly.

Portugal, Albania, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, and half of the Caribbean will all happily take FIRE folks with appropriate investments. Those are just off the top my head, I'm sure that there are more.

Of course, FIRE is key. Even Canada had/has a program to let you in if you bring enough financial resources with you.

But is the OP FIRED? I didn’t check. People tossing out the idea of going abroad to live is just not realistic.
 

PDXTabs

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2021, 11:39:01 AM »
But is the OP FIRED? I didn’t check. People tossing out the idea of going abroad to live is just not realistic.

I suppose that depends what line of work you are in. Portugal, Paraguay, Mexico, and Albania will happily let you come in pre-FIRE. For a small investment add Panama, Nicaragua, and maybe (depending on your definition of small) Colombia to that list. Panama is actually very attractive legal and tax wise depending on your line of work.

EDITed to add - and that doesn't even cover the EU Blue Card which some of us qualify for.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 11:40:50 AM by PDXTabs »

Metta

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2021, 11:43:06 AM »
As always, I wonder  where “abroad” people think  they will move? Will Canada take all of us?

Exactly.

Portugal, Albania, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, and half of the Caribbean will all happily take FIRE folks with appropriate investments. Those are just off the top my head, I'm sure that there are more.

Of course, FIRE is key. Even Canada had/has a program to let you in if you bring enough financial resources with you.

But is the OP FIRED? I didn’t check. People tossing out the idea of going abroad to live is just not realistic.

Yes, this is what I meant when I said exactly. It was to agree with your point.

J Boogie

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2021, 12:46:50 PM »
Nicaragua

Apologies if you were simply suggesting a few places that accept US expats, but a person would have to be suffering from mental illness to arrive at the conclusion that Nicaragua would offer superior stability, protection of rights/assets, or safety/security when compared to the US.

I spent a decent amount of time in Nicaragua during those underemployed years following the great recession, thinking of spending an early retirement there later down the road. However the unrest that began in 2018 was enough to convince to forget about any more visits, much less expatriating myself there.

PDXTabs

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2021, 01:41:38 PM »
Nicaragua

Apologies if you were simply suggesting a few places that accept US expats, but a person would have to be suffering from mental illness to arrive at the conclusion that Nicaragua would offer superior stability, protection of rights/assets, or safety/security when compared to the US.

I spent a decent amount of time in Nicaragua during those underemployed years following the great recession, thinking of spending an early retirement there later down the road. However the unrest that began in 2018 was enough to convince to forget about any more visits, much less expatriating myself there.

They certainly have some problems, and I would not put all my eggs in Nicaragua. But they have a lot of economic upside, where as the US has very little economic upside AFAICT.

Along those lines there is nothing stopping you from investing in Portugal, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, and a bunch or eastern Europe all at the same time while leaving some assets in the USA.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 01:51:07 PM by PDXTabs »

J Boogie

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2021, 03:19:39 PM »
Nicaragua

Apologies if you were simply suggesting a few places that accept US expats, but a person would have to be suffering from mental illness to arrive at the conclusion that Nicaragua would offer superior stability, protection of rights/assets, or safety/security when compared to the US.

I spent a decent amount of time in Nicaragua during those underemployed years following the great recession, thinking of spending an early retirement there later down the road. However the unrest that began in 2018 was enough to convince to forget about any more visits, much less expatriating myself there.

They certainly have some problems, and I would not put all my eggs in Nicaragua. But they have a lot of economic upside, where as the US has very little economic upside AFAICT.

Along those lines there is nothing stopping you from investing in Portugal, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, and a bunch or eastern Europe all at the same time while leaving some assets in the USA.

I guess I am referring mostly to the egg of your person, and the asset being the nest :)

I have heard good things about Portugal and love the climate and architecture, so that'd probably be near the top of my list.

the_gastropod

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2021, 03:52:51 PM »
I think you replied to the wrong person?
I, for one, do not want New York City and LA and handful of cities to elect the most powerful position of the Executive branch. One of the foundations of modern government is to not let the powerful overrun the weak.

This always cracks me up (about as much as it frustrates me). Nobody wants people who aren’t them to decide things on their behalf. That, I get. But do you think people in NYC and LA and a handful of other cities enjoy their votes counting for less? Are we less citizens of the US than people living in Wyoming and Nebraska? Yet every branch of government gives residents of unpopulated states significantly more representation than populated ones.

And, indeed, one purpose of government is to balance majority rule with not trampling minorities’ rights. The irony is the electoral college does exactly the opposite—it results in white voters getting more voting power than non-white voters. And as urbanization of the country continues, this problem only gets worse.

It also serves to ignore minority voters in their own states. There were more Trump voters in California than in Texas. There were more Biden voters in Texas than in New York. There were more Trump voters in New York than Ohio. We don’t think about it, because we just paint these states 100% red or 100% blue, and move on.

ctuser1

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2021, 04:34:04 PM »
I think you replied to the wrong person?
I, for one, do not want New York City and LA and handful of cities to elect the most powerful position of the Executive branch. One of the foundations of modern government is to not let the powerful overrun the weak.

This always cracks me up (about as much as it frustrates me). Nobody wants people who aren’t them to decide things on their behalf. That, I get. But do you think people in NYC and LA and a handful of other cities enjoy their votes counting for less? Are we less citizens of the US than people living in Wyoming and Nebraska? Yet every branch of government gives residents of unpopulated states significantly more representation than populated ones.

And, indeed, one purpose of government is to balance majority rule with not trampling minorities’ rights. The irony is the electoral college does exactly the opposite—it results in white voters getting more voting power than non-white voters. And as urbanization of the country continues, this problem only gets worse.

It also serves to ignore minority voters in their own states. There were more Trump voters in California than in Texas. There were more Biden voters in Texas than in New York. There were more Trump voters in New York than Ohio. We don’t think about it, because we just paint these states 100% red or 100% blue, and move on.

You don't get it, do you?

Only Trump supporting white rural rednecks are "real" Americans. You are a "coastal elite", a pretend, fake American.

It obviously follows your vote should count for less.

What about this simple logic do you not get??

OtherJen

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2021, 04:49:51 PM »
I think you replied to the wrong person?
I, for one, do not want New York City and LA and handful of cities to elect the most powerful position of the Executive branch. One of the foundations of modern government is to not let the powerful overrun the weak.

This always cracks me up (about as much as it frustrates me). Nobody wants people who aren’t them to decide things on their behalf. That, I get. But do you think people in NYC and LA and a handful of other cities enjoy their votes counting for less? Are we less citizens of the US than people living in Wyoming and Nebraska? Yet every branch of government gives residents of unpopulated states significantly more representation than populated ones.

And, indeed, one purpose of government is to balance majority rule with not trampling minorities’ rights. The irony is the electoral college does exactly the opposite—it results in white voters getting more voting power than non-white voters. And as urbanization of the country continues, this problem only gets worse.

It also serves to ignore minority voters in their own states. There were more Trump voters in California than in Texas. There were more Biden voters in Texas than in New York. There were more Trump voters in New York than Ohio. We don’t think about it, because we just paint these states 100% red or 100% blue, and move on.

THANK YOU for this excellent explanation of the problem with the Electoral College. Getting rid of it altogether will be long hassle (doesn't mean it shouldn't be done), but in the meantime, why aren't all states required to adhere to the same standards for this nationwide election? Maine and Nebraska assign their EC votes proportionally. All others are winner-take-all. Following the lead of those two states would move us closer to fair representation.

The presidential election in general is ridiculous. The primary is a disaster. Every other race for local, state, and federal offices has a primary in August. I do not understand the lack of standardization for the one race that is truly nationwide.

PDXTabs

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2021, 05:14:08 PM »
I have heard good things about Portugal and love the climate and architecture, so that'd probably be near the top of my list.

There is a reason that it is #1 on my list, but I'm watching developments in Albania to see if that changes.

RetiredAt63

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2021, 05:17:15 PM »
The US federal election system is a remnant of an earlier time, and no one wants to take the responsibility of fixing the system.

I totally get this.  We have the same problem in miniature.  24 Sussex Drive is the official PM's residence (equivalent of the White House, or 10 Downing Street), but no-one wants to spend the money to maintain it, it has become a political football.  It is really public property but because the PM lives there it somehow isn't?  So it need massive renovations, because neither party has been willing to fix it, and the PM is presently living in a cottage on the grounds of Rideau Hall, where the Governor General lives.  I know I said it was a problem in miniature, at least Americans look after the White House. 

Both are total insanity, just at different levels.  And both have no easy fix.

On a more serious note, lots of countries have functioning electoral systems that make it easy for citizens to vote.  The ones I can think of off the top of my head are all Parliamentary systems, but I am sure there are others.  Is it American exceptionalism that prevents Americans from even thinking that they could learn from other countries on how to set up a better system?

StashingAway

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2021, 05:55:39 PM »

This always cracks me up (about as much as it frustrates me). Nobody wants people who aren’t them to decide things on their behalf. That, I get. But do you think people in NYC and LA and a handful of other cities enjoy their votes counting for less? Are we less citizens of the US than people living in Wyoming and Nebraska? Yet every branch of government gives residents of unpopulated states significantly more representation than populated ones.

You aren't effing paying attention to my discussion. Bolded the part where I already conceded this point. I already said that the representation weight was skewed too much. And yet you throw it at me like I disagree. NOPE. I agree with this.

If you think you're frustrated, then you might have a taste for how I feel. I give up. Perhaps try re-stating my point back to me. I sincerely doubt that you can.

StashingAway

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2021, 05:58:19 PM »
And, indeed, one purpose of government is to balance majority rule with not trampling minorities’ rights. The irony is the electoral college does exactly the opposite—it results in white voters getting more voting power than non-white voters. And as urbanization of the country continues, this problem only gets worse.

You're combining two different definitions of "minority" here.

OtherJen

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2021, 06:03:21 PM »
And, indeed, one purpose of government is to balance majority rule with not trampling minorities’ rights. The irony is the electoral college does exactly the opposite—it results in white voters getting more voting power than non-white voters. And as urbanization of the country continues, this problem only gets worse.

You're combining two different definitions of "minority" here.

If you're gonna rant, at least get the quotes right.

the_gastropod

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2021, 06:06:43 PM »

You aren't effing paying attention to my discussion. Bolded the part where I already conceded this point. I already said that the representation weight was skewed too much. And yet you throw it at me like I disagree. NOPE. I agree with this.

If you think you're frustrated, then you might have a taste for how I feel. I give up. Perhaps try re-stating my point back to me. I sincerely doubt that you can.

That escalated quickly...

But I believe your point is: unpopulated states like Nebraska, Vermont, Wyoming, etc. have no incentive to “play ball” as part of the US unless they get a signal boost by giving their residents more per-capita representation than big states. Is that about right?

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2021, 06:10:07 PM »

This always cracks me up (about as much as it frustrates me). Nobody wants people who aren’t them to decide things on their behalf. That, I get. But do you think people in NYC and LA and a handful of other cities enjoy their votes counting for less? Are we less citizens of the US than people living in Wyoming and Nebraska? Yet every branch of government gives residents of unpopulated states significantly more representation than populated ones.

You aren't effing paying attention to my discussion. Bolded the part where I already conceded this point. I already said that the representation weight was skewed too much. And yet you throw it at me like I disagree. NOPE. I agree with this.

If you think you're frustrated, then you might have a taste for how I feel. I give up. Perhaps try re-stating my point back to me. I sincerely doubt that you can.

Kindly direct this to the correct poster.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2021, 06:47:51 PM »


I do not understand the lack of standardization for the one race that is truly nationwide.

In a word, the reason is federalism.

RetiredAt63

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2021, 07:03:09 PM »
Question.  When your founders were setting things up, were there clear parties?  Because if yes, all they did was the same as you have now, elect a bunch of people to select someone from a voted for party.  Which means they got to choose whomever they thought was the best man from the party they were elected to select from, but couldn't select someone from the other parties.  But they could at least pick from a group.  If there were no parties then they could select anyone.  Either way possibly  more workable than what you have now.

Our big issue is the built in conflict between one person being at the same time both a legislator and a member of the executive branch, I.e. a cabinet minister.  Early on someone named to cabinet had to resign their seat and run in a by-election, because that was not what their constituents had elected them to do.  Now people are delighted to have their MP in cabinet.

Any system has its good and bad points, the trick is to promote the best aspects of the setup you have and minimise the bad points.  Sigh, hard to do.


bmjohnson35

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2021, 08:11:23 PM »
Questions for Pomegranate12: 

Why do you think other places are better?
How much have you travelled? Every country has its advantages/disadvantages.....utopia doesn't exist. 
The US had some unprecedented advantages following WWII.  That was 75 yrs ago.  Is it reasonable to expect the US to remain the top empire forever?  No one stays at the top forever.
Is the U.S.perfect? Of course it isn't, but what country is? It seems a bit premature to claim we are completely falling apart.

pecunia

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2021, 09:43:13 PM »
Questions for Pomegranate12: 

- SNIP -
Is the U.S.perfect? Of course it isn't, but what country is? It seems a bit premature to claim we are completely falling apart.

Right!  And,....why do we need an empire?  I guess the US spends as much as the next 12 countries combined on defense.  Does Luxembourg have an empire?  They seem to do pretty well for themselves. 

Michael in ABQ

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2021, 09:48:07 PM »
Questions for Pomegranate12: 

- SNIP -
Is the U.S.perfect? Of course it isn't, but what country is? It seems a bit premature to claim we are completely falling apart.

Right!  And,....why do we need an empire?  I guess the US spends as much as the next 12 countries combined on defense.  Does Luxembourg have an empire?  They seem to do pretty well for themselves.

This is one of those oft-repeated lines that ignores some important factors - i.e. how much of our defense spending is personnel costs (roughly half of that ~$700 billion) and how much more US Servicemembers are paid compared to say China or Russia. If you adjust for purchasing power parity the amount China is spending compared to the US becomes much closer.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/05/us-defense-budget-not-that-much-bigger-than-china-russia-gen-milley/

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2021, 11:02:24 PM »
All empires have to end and if the US crumbles it might make for some interesting financial developments which might be beneficial in a roundabout way.

GuitarStv

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #84 on: January 13, 2021, 07:31:29 AM »
Questions for Pomegranate12: 

- SNIP -
Is the U.S.perfect? Of course it isn't, but what country is? It seems a bit premature to claim we are completely falling apart.

Right!  And,....why do we need an empire?  I guess the US spends as much as the next 12 countries combined on defense.  Does Luxembourg have an empire?  They seem to do pretty well for themselves.

This is one of those oft-repeated lines that ignores some important factors - i.e. how much of our defense spending is personnel costs (roughly half of that ~$700 billion) and how much more US Servicemembers are paid compared to say China or Russia. If you adjust for purchasing power parity the amount China is spending compared to the US becomes much closer.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/05/us-defense-budget-not-that-much-bigger-than-china-russia-gen-milley/

What the heck?  'Adjusted for purchasing power'?  That makes no sense at all to do when comparing national expenditures.  Adjusted for purchasing power, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are both nicer places to live than New Zealand, France, and Belgium.  What a bizarre way to look at things.

bigblock440

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #85 on: January 13, 2021, 07:40:33 AM »
Questions for Pomegranate12: 

Why do you think other places are better?
How much have you travelled? Every country has its advantages/disadvantages.....utopia doesn't exist. 
The US had some unprecedented advantages following WWII.  That was 75 yrs ago.  Is it reasonable to expect the US to remain the top empire forever?  No one stays at the top forever.
Is the U.S.perfect? Of course it isn't, but what country is? It seems a bit premature to claim we are completely falling apart.

OP's not going to answer, it's been moved to off-topic and they don't have 100 posts.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #86 on: January 13, 2021, 08:59:48 AM »
Questions for Pomegranate12: 

- SNIP -
Is the U.S.perfect? Of course it isn't, but what country is? It seems a bit premature to claim we are completely falling apart.

Right!  And,....why do we need an empire?  I guess the US spends as much as the next 12 countries combined on defense.  Does Luxembourg have an empire?  They seem to do pretty well for themselves.

This is one of those oft-repeated lines that ignores some important factors - i.e. how much of our defense spending is personnel costs (roughly half of that ~$700 billion) and how much more US Servicemembers are paid compared to say China or Russia. If you adjust for purchasing power parity the amount China is spending compared to the US becomes much closer.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/05/us-defense-budget-not-that-much-bigger-than-china-russia-gen-milley/

What the heck?  'Adjusted for purchasing power'?  That makes no sense at all to do when comparing national expenditures.  Adjusted for purchasing power, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are both nicer places to live than New Zealand, France, and Belgium.  What a bizarre way to look at things.

https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/why-russian-military-expenditure-is-much-higher-than-commonly-understood-as-is-chinas/

Quote
the use of market exchange rates grossly understates the real volume of Russian military expenditure (and that of other countries with smaller per-capita incomes, like China). Instead, any analysis of comparative military expenditure should be based on the use of purchasing power parity (PPP) exchange rates rather than market exchange rates. This alternative method takes differences in costs between countries into account. As we demonstrate, despite some shortcomings, PPP is a much more methodologically robust and defensible method of comparing defense spending across countries than the method of comparing spending using the market exchange rates that are commonly used by think tanks and academics. Using PPP, one finds that Russia’s effective military expenditure actually ranged between $150 billion and $180 billion annually over the last five years. That figure is conservative; taking into account hidden or obfuscated military expenditure, Russia may well come in at around $200 billion.

Quote
The most appropriate method for taking differences in relative costs across countries into account is, therefore, to use a PPP exchange rate. Today the International Monetary Fund calculates an implied PPP exchange rate of 23.4 rubles to the dollar. Given that the actual market exchange rate is 65 rubles to the dollar, this would suggest that the value of economic activity in Russia is over two and a half times larger than implied by the prevailing market exchange rate.

As a Captain in the Army I am paid over $100k a year - plus retirement and medical benefits that will be paid out for decades to come. A Russian Captain will be paid around $15k, plus presumably some benefits like food and housing. So call it $25k total to be generous. So if the Russian military spends $60 billion on defense but their personnel costs are on average say 1/4 of the US, don't you think that skews the numbers when people claim the US spends 10x more on defense than Russia or spends more than the next 10-12 countries combined? A typical truck used in the military might cost $300-400k. I'm guessing an equivalent Russian truck with approximately the same capabilities will cost a fraction of that because at every level of production their labor costs are lower. So it is not an apples to apples comparison, especially when there are rarely market-based prices for things like missiles, tanks, cruisers, etc. It's not like comparing the cost of a gallon of a roll of copper wire or a barrel of oil.

pecunia

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #87 on: January 13, 2021, 01:11:09 PM »
I'll just ask the question.  Does the US really need all the military that it has?  It seems like they've been fighting in Afghanistan forever.  They talk about terrorist threats and show us pictures of some rocky places where the people eek out a living as goat herders and such.  To be honest with you, I'm more concerned with the crazy MAGA guys than the goat herders.

Does the US really need to be an empire?

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2021, 01:32:39 PM »
Questions for Pomegranate12: 

- SNIP -
Is the U.S.perfect? Of course it isn't, but what country is? It seems a bit premature to claim we are completely falling apart.

Right!  And,....why do we need an empire?  I guess the US spends as much as the next 12 countries combined on defense.  Does Luxembourg have an empire?  They seem to do pretty well for themselves.

This is one of those oft-repeated lines that ignores some important factors - i.e. how much of our defense spending is personnel costs (roughly half of that ~$700 billion) and how much more US Servicemembers are paid compared to say China or Russia. If you adjust for purchasing power parity the amount China is spending compared to the US becomes much closer.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/05/us-defense-budget-not-that-much-bigger-than-china-russia-gen-milley/

What the heck?  'Adjusted for purchasing power'?  That makes no sense at all to do when comparing national expenditures.  Adjusted for purchasing power, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are both nicer places to live than New Zealand, France, and Belgium.  What a bizarre way to look at things.

https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/why-russian-military-expenditure-is-much-higher-than-commonly-understood-as-is-chinas/

Quote
the use of market exchange rates grossly understates the real volume of Russian military expenditure (and that of other countries with smaller per-capita incomes, like China). Instead, any analysis of comparative military expenditure should be based on the use of purchasing power parity (PPP) exchange rates rather than market exchange rates. This alternative method takes differences in costs between countries into account. As we demonstrate, despite some shortcomings, PPP is a much more methodologically robust and defensible method of comparing defense spending across countries than the method of comparing spending using the market exchange rates that are commonly used by think tanks and academics. Using PPP, one finds that Russia’s effective military expenditure actually ranged between $150 billion and $180 billion annually over the last five years. That figure is conservative; taking into account hidden or obfuscated military expenditure, Russia may well come in at around $200 billion.

Quote
The most appropriate method for taking differences in relative costs across countries into account is, therefore, to use a PPP exchange rate. Today the International Monetary Fund calculates an implied PPP exchange rate of 23.4 rubles to the dollar. Given that the actual market exchange rate is 65 rubles to the dollar, this would suggest that the value of economic activity in Russia is over two and a half times larger than implied by the prevailing market exchange rate.

As a Captain in the Army I am paid over $100k a year - plus retirement and medical benefits that will be paid out for decades to come. A Russian Captain will be paid around $15k, plus presumably some benefits like food and housing. So call it $25k total to be generous. So if the Russian military spends $60 billion on defense but their personnel costs are on average say 1/4 of the US, don't you think that skews the numbers when people claim the US spends 10x more on defense than Russia or spends more than the next 10-12 countries combined? A typical truck used in the military might cost $300-400k. I'm guessing an equivalent Russian truck with approximately the same capabilities will cost a fraction of that because at every level of production their labor costs are lower. So it is not an apples to apples comparison, especially when there are rarely market-based prices for things like missiles, tanks, cruisers, etc. It's not like comparing the cost of a gallon of a roll of copper wire or a barrel of oil.

I understand your point . . . you're arguing that it costs more to pay US soldiers than Russian soldiers.  I understand that argument.  I just don't think it makes any sense.

Quote
To put it simply, calculating Russian military expenditure based on purchasing power means that the United States spends only about four times more than Russia on defense, rather than ten times more when using market exchange rates.

4x using purchasing power or 10x using real figures . . . both seem like an awful lot of money to be spending.

There are ridiculous and costly expenses with no value added that you seem to be ignoring.  How much of that cash has been spent by the US government on personnel and maintenance costs to keep the illegal Guantanamo Bay torture facilities running?  How much money would be saved by merely following international law?

J Boogie

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #89 on: January 13, 2021, 02:57:37 PM »
I'll just ask the question.  Does the US really need all the military that it has?  It seems like they've been fighting in Afghanistan forever.  They talk about terrorist threats and show us pictures of some rocky places where the people eek out a living as goat herders and such.  To be honest with you, I'm more concerned with the crazy MAGA guys than the goat herders.

Does the US really need to be an empire?

No, we don't. In the wake of WWII this all made sense as our policing the world served us in keeping international trade routes open and safe. We were able to import what we couldn't make, sell what we could, and our dominant position increased.

Things are different now and inertia explains the vast majority of our military spending. It was once said there is nothing so permanent as a temporary government program. What bureaucrats will lead the presentation about how their budget is 5x too big, and they should be let go immediately? And when an idiot reality TV host turned Republican president finally gives us a chance to reverse course, the boy who cried wolf effect keeps us from embracing any of his ideas as most of them are dumb, unethical, or both. And so we've glorified the bureaucrat so viciously slandered as a deep state actor.

It's kind of a missed opportunity. I think a D president would face too much blowback from the hawkish right (a coalition that magically seems to grow exponentially if a D is the president). Trump would've faced some neocon resistance but ultimately he could've made military footprint contraction a priority and could've set the precedent that Biden would have had to fight to reverse. It's far easier to let everything stay the same than to have to make the case for each and every military base we operate across the globe.


Michael in ABQ

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #90 on: January 13, 2021, 04:44:51 PM »

I understand your point . . . you're arguing that it costs more to pay US soldiers than Russian soldiers.  I understand that argument.  I just don't think it makes any sense.

Quote
To put it simply, calculating Russian military expenditure based on purchasing power means that the United States spends only about four times more than Russia on defense, rather than ten times more when using market exchange rates.

4x using purchasing power or 10x using real figures . . . both seem like an awful lot of money to be spending.

There are ridiculous and costly expenses with no value added that you seem to be ignoring.  How much of that cash has been spent by the US government on personnel and maintenance costs to keep the illegal Guantanamo Bay torture facilities running?  How much money would be saved by merely following international law?

Well since the DoD pays my salary I am a bit biased. However, I've seen first hand the fraud, waste, and abuse. The DoD is by no means efficient in spending that ~$700 billion. Everyone wants a piece of the pie and even for a well-meaning contractor to work with the government involves a lot of bureaucracy that drives up their costs. For the ones who are perfectly happy to screw over the government, it's far worse. I see costs for equipment or construction projects that should be criminal. Or contractors who fail at their job and still get paid, or even get bonuses. There's lots of systems in place to stop these things, but a few percent here, and a few percent there can end up being millions or billions of dollars.

The whole Guantanamo Bay mission is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. Tens of millions per year maybe. Those Soldiers would be paid regardless of whether they're guarding prisoners there or stationed somewhere in the US. The only difference is feeding and housing them costs a bit more while deployed. The facilities themselves were probably fairly expensive to build since they probably had to bring in all the construction material and labor from the U.S.


At the end of the day could the US get by with say half as much defense spending? Probably. It would mean a significant downsizing and cutting a lot of weapons systems. Maybe it would mean Russia decides to bite off more of Ukraine, or China takes over some more islands since they have less to fear from a US response. It's one of those things that's hard to put a price on. Lots of people inside and outside the US complain about us being the world's policeman, but what if there were no police? Would that be better for global geopolitical stability?

Sid Hoffman

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #91 on: January 13, 2021, 08:34:29 PM »
Portugal, Albania, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, and half of the Caribbean will all happily take FIRE folks with appropriate investments. Those are just off the top my head, I'm sure that there are more.

A few of those aren't exactly countries known for being safe, governmentally stable, and with non-corrupt governments. Somebody leaving a wealthy and safe part of Vermont to live in Nicaragua because they think the US is politically unstable and unsafe may not experience the outcome they were hoping for. Good luck to them though. To each their own.

GuitarStv

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2021, 06:27:44 AM »

I understand your point . . . you're arguing that it costs more to pay US soldiers than Russian soldiers.  I understand that argument.  I just don't think it makes any sense.

Quote
To put it simply, calculating Russian military expenditure based on purchasing power means that the United States spends only about four times more than Russia on defense, rather than ten times more when using market exchange rates.

4x using purchasing power or 10x using real figures . . . both seem like an awful lot of money to be spending.

There are ridiculous and costly expenses with no value added that you seem to be ignoring.  How much of that cash has been spent by the US government on personnel and maintenance costs to keep the illegal Guantanamo Bay torture facilities running?  How much money would be saved by merely following international law?

Well since the DoD pays my salary I am a bit biased. However, I've seen first hand the fraud, waste, and abuse. The DoD is by no means efficient in spending that ~$700 billion. Everyone wants a piece of the pie and even for a well-meaning contractor to work with the government involves a lot of bureaucracy that drives up their costs. For the ones who are perfectly happy to screw over the government, it's far worse. I see costs for equipment or construction projects that should be criminal. Or contractors who fail at their job and still get paid, or even get bonuses. There's lots of systems in place to stop these things, but a few percent here, and a few percent there can end up being millions or billions of dollars.

The whole Guantanamo Bay mission is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. Tens of millions per year maybe. Those Soldiers would be paid regardless of whether they're guarding prisoners there or stationed somewhere in the US. The only difference is feeding and housing them costs a bit more while deployed. The facilities themselves were probably fairly expensive to build since they probably had to bring in all the construction material and labor from the U.S.


At the end of the day could the US get by with say half as much defense spending? Probably. It would mean a significant downsizing and cutting a lot of weapons systems. Maybe it would mean Russia decides to bite off more of Ukraine, or China takes over some more islands since they have less to fear from a US response. It's one of those things that's hard to put a price on. Lots of people inside and outside the US complain about us being the world's policeman, but what if there were no police? Would that be better for global geopolitical stability?

The US has always used it's army to protect US interests and political goals.

So what are some recent 'police' actions?

Iraq.  Got rid of Saddam Hussein (yay!) . . . but didn't have any plan for how to return the area to stability afterwards, so the US was directly responsible for the rise of ISIS (which was almost heavily run by ex-Saddam's Iraq military men).  As a good police officer, the US military happily raped and tortured prisoners in it's care - with tacit approval from every level and ultimately no real accountability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse).  There were also methodical murders of civilians by US marines when faced by total lack of resistance - followed by no accountability by the military (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre).  There was the widespread use of internationally illegal chemical weapons by US forces on civilian populations for which nobody has ever been held accountable (https://www.newsweek.com/why-united-nations-not-investigating-alleged-white-phosphorus-attacks-1468042).  Bombing of civilians and then attmepts to cover up the atrocity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukaradeeb_wedding_party_massacre).  Then there was the massacre by US paid mercenaries - for which no ultimate penalty was ever paid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre#Criminal_charges).

Afghanistan.  Let's see . . . we've got illegal use of internationally banned chemical weapons against civilians (https://www.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-39498520090508?edition-redirect=in),  US support of child rapists and punishment of military personnel who voice concern (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html), more kidnapping torture and rape by US military (https://www.hrw.org/report/2004/03/07/enduring-freedom/abuses-us-forces-afghanistan).

Lists and lists of this stuff can be made going all the way back to WWII.  The US military is at best a corrupt and evil police officer - one who takes bribes for his family, abuses his power, takes prisoners without trial or even cause, often rapes and murders those prisoners, and answers to no-one.

As far as actual police actions?  The fully and ridiculously funded US military didn't do a damned thing when Russia blatantly invaded and annexed the Ukraine.  China is happily building advance military bases all over the place while thumbing their nose while the US military looks on and does nothing.  Historically, it seems that US military response is only really taken when it comes to poorer countries unable to fight back - not big threats.  What worse outcome are you expecting with slightly less military funding?



Please understand that I'm not attacking you personally Michael . . . but the organization you work for condones and rewards crimes against humanity, going out of it's way to protect monsters.  It's hard to get on board with that.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:18:38 PM by GuitarStv »

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2021, 10:28:04 AM »
Question.  When your founders were setting things up, were there clear parties?

Not really. The founders actually hated the idea of political parties, and wrote the Constitution under the assumption that everyone in government from the president to the Congress to the electoral college would be a free agent thinking for himself outside of organized "factions." They even wrote it so the guy who came in second place in the electoral vote would be vice president. This assumption of no political parties was rather naďve, disproven a few years into the republic when the first set of parties cropped up. They did change the vice president thing after a few times the vice president and president from opposing parties absolutely despised each other, but other reforms to better account for the existence of parties in the electoral system (such as proportional representation in the House) have not been implemented.

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2021, 10:32:08 AM »
At the end of the day could the US get by with say half as much defense spending? Probably. It would mean a significant downsizing and cutting a lot of weapons systems. Maybe it would mean Russia decides to bite off more of Ukraine, or China takes over some more islands since they have less to fear from a US response. It's one of those things that's hard to put a price on. Lots of people inside and outside the US complain about us being the world's policeman, but what if there were no police? Would that be better for global geopolitical stability?

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the deafening sound of us completely ignoring our obligation to defend Ukraine and letting Russia carve it up. WTF is the point of having the world's largest military if we don't use it?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:36:39 AM by PDXTabs »

pecunia

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2021, 11:27:21 AM »
At the end of the day could the US get by with say half as much defense spending? Probably. It would mean a significant downsizing and cutting a lot of weapons systems. Maybe it would mean Russia decides to bite off more of Ukraine, or China takes over some more islands since they have less to fear from a US response. It's one of those things that's hard to put a price on. Lots of people inside and outside the US complain about us being the world's policeman, but what if there were no police? Would that be better for global geopolitical stability?

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the deafening sound of us completely ignoring our obligation to defend Ukraine and letting Russia carve it up. WTF is the point of having the world's largest military if we don't use it?

Folks always use the excuse that it is a deterrent.  Military force is only to be used as a final resort.

RetiredAt63

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2021, 11:37:51 AM »
Question.  When your founders were setting things up, were there clear parties?

Not really. The founders actually hated the idea of political parties, and wrote the Constitution under the assumption that everyone in government from the president to the Congress to the electoral college would be a free agent thinking for himself outside of organized "factions." They even wrote it so the guy who came in second place in the electoral vote would be vice president. This assumption of no political parties was rather naďve, disproven a few years into the republic when the first set of parties cropped up. They did change the vice president thing after a few times the vice president and president from opposing parties absolutely despised each other, but other reforms to better account for the existence of parties in the electoral system (such as proportional representation in the House) have not been implemented.

That explains a lot.  They were being a bit idealistic, since there were lots of examples of factions and political parties in their time.  We had political parties from the get-go, our whole system assumes political parties.  The only place we didn't was in municipal politics, and now there are some parties, or maybe coalitions might be a better word, in municipal politics.

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2021, 11:41:51 AM »
The military is also a giant government employment program. It provides opportunities for people (usually low income/education people) to enter a stable government job, build some skills, be employed, etc. Once they leave the military they have other opportunities available to them. If you cut military spending those kinds of opportunities need to be created elsewhere. It's not just about policing the world. It's a jobs program that provides a path for low income/education people to move out of poverty. Whether it's the most efficient, or a good way to do that is debatable, but it's not like the government can just cut military spending and not replace it with another direct jobs program.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 02:12:37 PM by sixwings »

wenchsenior

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2021, 12:11:56 PM »
The military is also a giant government employment program. It provides opportunities for people (usually low income/education people) to enter a stable government job, build some skills, be employed, etc. Once they leave the military they have other opportunities available to them. If you cut military spending those kinds of opportunities need to be created elsewhere. It's not just about policing the world.

That is a great point.  It was my husband's leg up out of poverty and a family/social culture that didn't value education/often didn't even finish high school, remains stuck in poverty and addiction cycles.  He assumed growing up he'd be a blue collar labor or service worker, or a cop. And he was, for a few years, but after the army he wanted to go to college, and ended up with a very successful career in the sciences. It's highly unlikely he would ever have begun to aspire to anything that required a college degree, let alone 3 degrees and a post doc, without the army to boost him out of his socio-cultural circle.

jinga nation

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Re: American Empire Ending
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2021, 02:55:56 PM »
It's getting worse though everyday at this rate I give it 5 years

You seriously think Joe Biden will single-handedly destroy America almost entirely in his first term alone? I don't think that is realistic. Pessimism sells and bad news increases social media engagement. This means news is engineered to make you angry and hopeless for two purposes: to increase social media engagement and thus raise the amount of money Google, Facebook, and Twitter make from selling online ads (the only way those companies really make money) but also cause you to self-soothe and spend your way to happiness. This is a win-win for the aforementioned companies. You increase their ad rates and money while also buying the products you see advertised, thus giving more money to those companies to spend on ads.

The thing is that the public is starting to catch on to all of this. I for one deleted all my social media accounts several years ago and I certainly wasn't even the first among my friends and family to do so. Discussion forums are really a lot better because you can't pick and choose what you want to see the way social media is engineered to only show you what you want to see. Social media just increases division. If anything, discussion forums promote community and cooperation because if somebody wants to actually make good use of a forum, they need to learn, listen, and understand opposing viewpoints and provide factual reasons why to have a differing viewpoint. You can't just hit "block" and never see that person or topic ever again the way you can on social media.

No, I think this is a turning point and things get better from here. It doesn't even matter if the US is a cultural superpower anymore and if the US & EU both become economic slaves to China. Neither the US or EU is ever going to bow to China's culture, even if we accept their lordship for all manufactured goods. Between having free speech or having the strongest economy, I'm certain we'll choose free speech and weak economies rather than letting China take over all culture and communication in every nation of the world. Just as the UKs empire ended in the 20th century and the USAs ends in the 21st, so too will China's empire end soon as well. As for when and how, who knows, but free speech has historically always won, all throughout human history. Thus China is on the wrong side of history for this battle.

There's a ton of optimism and can-do attitude still left in the USA despite what @Pomegranate12 may be getting on left/right-wing news media.

It is the darkest before dawn.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 03:00:06 PM by jinga nation »