Author Topic: America on the precipice: What are you doing?  (Read 16606 times)

mm1970

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2021, 05:09:07 PM »
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.

I think if you've made an honest effort to communicate with them, and understand why they hold different views than you do, it's fine to avoid contact. But I think as a society, we've pretty much failed to properly communicate for the last few decades, and simply started shouting at each other because taking an empathetic approach to civil disagreement and trying to understand a different viewpoint is a lot more work than just shouting.
The people that stormed the Capitol saw themselves as patriots defending their democracy from traitors. You see yourself as a patriot defending your democracy from traitors. Everybody thinks they're the good guy.
Reconciliation doesn't fall solely on the shoulders of the people who were right about Trump's cruelty and fascist tendencies from the beginning.

Even after insurrectionists were wound up by Trump, broke into the Capitol, and killed people, congress reconvened and over 100 congressmen voted to disenfranchise tens of millions of votes and overturn the results of a legitimate election in order to cater to Trump's baseless tin foil conspiracy theories.

Their constituents can, at any point, start pressuring those congressmen to admit fault and change course.

This.  As an example, I have a cousin-through-marriage who married a big Trumper.  Several months ago, we got into it on FB on our aunt's page.  I pointed out that he really DOESN'T understand how his aunt feels, and her positions - and that's partly because he hasn't TRIED.  (She's gay, she's lived all over.  He's white, middle class, in lives in our very white home town.)

He attacked me with "oh, poor baby have I hurt your feelings."  My response was less than nice with "oh please, I'm 50 years old and was in the military, you can't hurt my feelings because I literally don't give a shit what you think."  (He's maybe 30 years old.  It's my much younger cousin.)

Within a day his wife was all boo-hooing on FB about how people keep "attacking" her husband and if you don't like them, then just unfriend us.  So...I did.  I mean, if that's what you want, fine with me!

Well apparently yesterday, she posted in the private family group how people are "attacking" her husband and she loves us and doesn't feel mean towards us for our beliefs and we need to respect hers!  So, I went to her public fb page, didn't see anything, and then went to his.  Well, he posts a lot of the horrible things that you'd expect from a trump supporter and I saw our aunts and uncles interacting with him and his opinions...quite respectfully.  And he basically "yelled" in return, as much as you can yell on facebook.

So, respectfully questioning your opinions is attacking?  Well fuck that.  I have no need to keep these nutcases in my life (I mean, I already unfriended her and we live on opposite coasts anyway.  And I have like 70 cousins anyway.)

CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2021, 05:45:08 PM »

..... a terrorist attack--violence aimed at causing a desired political outcome...

Also the BLM protests in Seattle were to raise awareness of the racist policing we have here, inform voters, and propose policy for lawmakers.... 
 I won't call BLM protestors "traitors and terrorists."

@CodingHare Thanks for your post. It helped explain some of what I've thought of as a disconnect.
Would you expand on this?
 
Are you saying the BLM protests were "aimed at causing a desired political outcome" but were not planned to be violent and that is why you won't call them terrorists?

That makes sense to me but then I struggle with thinking that some (a minuscule minority maybe) of the BLM protestors were planning violence to ensure attention was paid. So maybe a few were terrorists?

I know quite a truck drivers were afraid to drive thru big cities for fear of the violence taking place. Do you distinguish that violence as a side effect, not an intention?

I understand if you don't want to get into it here but your post is enlightening.

Sure, happy to!  I guess we go back to definitions.  Both protests and terrorism try to effect change, often political.  Protests don't say, Do what we want or we will hang you.  They are saying, this group of people are unhappy and want x.  We will vote for x, we will disrupt people's lives and cost money (via blocking roads and the like) to make sure people are listening to us.  Often protests happen when lobbying through normal channels fails.  A small protest might be ignored.  A large one commands attention.

Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence.  Bomb the Pentagon so they can't organize strikes in the Middle East against insurgents, to use 9/11 as an example.  Threaten to hang Pence if he doesn't overthrow the vote of the people.


That's why I characterize BLM and the Capitol riots differently.

Ednt: Missed the question about your truck driver's example, hazard of replying on mobile.  I guess to me, I draw the line between inconveniencing society and harming its members.  So I don't think individuals should ever face violence against their person, and the ideal purpose of law enforcement is to prevent that.  On the flip side, in America money talks.  Block a highway and impct shipments?  No people harmed and not listening to the issue costs society in a real way.  I think racial justice and the murders of innocent people merit that level of reaction.

IIRC, at least in Seattle the protestors explicitly let ambulences and fire trucks through.

Sorry if that was a ramble, I had an upfront view last year and thought a lot about what the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor marches meant in terms of economic impact locally, and how the events were heavily spun my national media.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 09:50:10 PM by CodingHare »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2021, 06:13:43 PM »
I guess I just see the breakdown of law & order as a bad thing, regardless of how it happens. After Minneapolis cops murdered George Floyd we had protests in something like 100+ cities but only in a few of them did we see law & order truly break down. In those places (the CHAZ is an example) it is very much comparable to the nutjobs that managed to get a breakdown of law & order in the capital as well.

It's not going to last long though. Joe Biden has made it clear that although he's seeking healing and an advancement of progressive ideals, he's absolutely a president of law & order. Look at the mayor of Portland. After literally having rioters drive him out of his own home, he got re-elected on the promise that he'll take a tougher stand against rioters than his opponent and that's what we've seen in Portland now. The pendulum swings. It swung hard against law & order this summer and we're going to see it swing back hard towards law & order under Biden. There will be peace because it's the only way to move forward.

I heard Portland's  mayor bluntly state  his new, hard-line  policy; he didn't mince words.

I will  not go so far as to say that the protracted looting/vandalism/arson and other criminality in Portland and other cities "set the table" for the insurrectionists' storming of the Capitol building.

  The laxity on the part of  governors, mayors, and other officials  protracted the lawlessness in Portland and elsewhere so I think  the insurrectionists' awareness  of it may have influenced their behavior.

The law teaches by  its application AND  inapplication.


Abe

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2021, 08:54:52 PM »
To clarify - people who have crazy beliefs with no basis on reality and blindly support a lunatic are “idiots”. People who then attack others to get said beliefs accepted by a government and over-rule that government’s standard process of representation are “terrorists”. If some people shoot up a courthouse or burned down businesses in an attempt to force people into accepting their beliefs and over-ruling lawfully created justice systems, they are also “terrorists”. If they do it by electing lawmakers who reform the justice system, they are “good citizens”. The lunatics are not good citizens because they are trying to overthrow the rights of other citizens, so even if they elect lawmakers who suggest violating the constitution and disenfranchising millions of people is OK, they are still “bad citizens”.

All of the above is irrelevant except for the violence part, which should be prosecuted. I do agree that a bunch of my fellow citizens are gullible. They are also adults and need to accept some responsibility. More to others’ point, yelling at gullible people that they are dopes will not make them agree with you. Making their society not suck will. Economic initiatives that they will probably whine about yet hypocritically accept for themselves tends to work, because over time the whining decreases as their lives suck less. Eventually it may be even worth living in reality instead of a loser-filled internet barn of wannabe terorrists. This will likely work for both sides of the political spectrum, avoids ascribing degrees of fault/shame, and as this forum’s existence notes: everyone likes more money. Maybe not for their neighbor, but definitely for themselves.

Yes it’s not fair, but life isn’t. We spend lots of money on conveniences, and a big thing that makes a stable country convenient is not getting shot up by some moron at the store because he read the inter webs in a Monster-fueled all-nighter. If he had a job to go to, maybe he’d not do that.

Other than that I don’t have any ideas. Not going to legitimize crazy nonsense by pretending it’s anything other than crazy nonsense. That doesn’t mean we can’t throw the non-violent people a bone. As much as it sucks, we have to be the better people always, because two belligerent factions don’t make a stable country.  Refer to Jesus and all that stuff he said. Think of your children. Not mine, because we can easily peace out if this country can’t hold it together (parents did that when I was a kid, so think of it as a family tradition).

Ok, done ranting. Had to get that off my chest.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 09:06:59 PM by Abe »

Paper Chaser

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #104 on: January 12, 2021, 03:54:16 AM »
As much as it sucks, we have to be the better people always, because two belligerent factions don’t make a stable country.  Refer to Jesus and all that stuff he said.

If I were going to summarize my posts in this thread, I think it would be similar to what you've posted here Abe. I know there aren't a ton of religious people that post here, but regardless of how religious a person is/isn't, I think most people agree that "The Golden Rule" is a pretty worthy objective for how we interact with others. That's what I'm going to focus on moving forward. When the opportunity comes for me to take action and vote, I'll do that as well but until then it's "love thy neighbor" stuff for me. It takes both sides working together (Not sure why people seem to think that anyone is suggesting one side compromise while the other doesn't), or we end up in an arms race.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2021, 04:06:43 AM »
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.

I think if you've made an honest effort to communicate with them, and understand why they hold different views than you do, it's fine to avoid contact. But I think as a society, we've pretty much failed to properly communicate for the last few decades, and simply started shouting at each other because taking an empathetic approach to civil disagreement and trying to understand a different viewpoint is a lot more work than just shouting.
The people that stormed the Capitol saw themselves as patriots defending their democracy from traitors. You see yourself as a patriot defending your democracy from traitors. Everybody thinks they're the good guy.
Reconciliation doesn't fall solely on the shoulders of the people who were right about Trump's cruelty and fascist tendencies from the beginning.

Even after insurrectionists were wound up by Trump, broke into the Capitol, and killed people, congress reconvened and over 100 congressmen voted to disenfranchise tens of millions of votes and overturn the results of a legitimate election in order to cater to Trump's baseless tin foil conspiracy theories.

Their constituents can, at any point, start pressuring those congressmen to admit fault and change course.

This.  As an example, I have a cousin-through-marriage who married a big Trumper.  Several months ago, we got into it on FB on our aunt's page.  I pointed out that he really DOESN'T understand how his aunt feels, and her positions - and that's partly because he hasn't TRIED.  (She's gay, she's lived all over.  He's white, middle class, in lives in our very white home town.)

He attacked me with "oh, poor baby have I hurt your feelings."  My response was less than nice with "oh please, I'm 50 years old and was in the military, you can't hurt my feelings because I literally don't give a shit what you think."  (He's maybe 30 years old.  It's my much younger cousin.)

Within a day his wife was all boo-hooing on FB about how people keep "attacking" her husband and if you don't like them, then just unfriend us.  So...I did.  I mean, if that's what you want, fine with me!

Well apparently yesterday, she posted in the private family group how people are "attacking" her husband and she loves us and doesn't feel mean towards us for our beliefs and we need to respect hers!  So, I went to her public fb page, didn't see anything, and then went to his.  Well, he posts a lot of the horrible things that you'd expect from a trump supporter and I saw our aunts and uncles interacting with him and his opinions...quite respectfully.  And he basically "yelled" in return, as much as you can yell on facebook.

So, respectfully questioning your opinions is attacking?  Well fuck that.  I have no need to keep these nutcases in my life (I mean, I already unfriended her and we live on opposite coasts anyway.  And I have like 70 cousins anyway.)

Part of it is social media.  I know through my job many people who lean more like Trumpers while I’m a centrist  politically for the most part and on the left in what is currently going on.  I’m not friends with any of them on social media.  I can have a conversation with them that brings in politics and we do fine and can remain civil.  I believe it’s because we are actually face to face and can see both the spoken and body language of the person.  We can also literally walk away (which you can’t on social media) which allows the parties to not escalate.  Plus what had caused us to stop and walk away isn’t written down somewhere so we don’t keep getting whatever ticked us off brought back up because somebody else commented.

With family, there is only one I dropped from FB and I dropped her before 2016.  There are others that I only interact with on a limited basis.  FB’s algorithm no longer shows me much of them, I see way more from the disapproving cats group.


chemistk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #106 on: January 12, 2021, 05:50:04 AM »
I asked this question to my therapist months ago, "what's the line? when people are rounded up into box cars?"

extreme but it poses a question, where's the line where people cut ties? For me it was Weds 6th after years of struggling to find that line.

If that happens, I am at peace with my Maker.

Otherwise, life moves forward.

I was bullied for a significant portion of elementary/middle school. The single most important thing I learned and the same thing that I have been teaching our oldest child now that he's in Kindergarten, is that bullies can only be bullies if you let them.

When you don't give them what they want, whatever it is, you take all their power away from them. If I am shot point blank, in the back, or through my bedroom window because I chose not to give these people the attention they crave, then see my first sentence in this reply.

These people are bullies. They crave attention because they're angry about things that other people aren't and they're taking it out in the way they think will rile up those they hate the most. It's the same reason one of my bullies told me my Mom died in a car crash during class when I was 9. It was the same reason I was pushed off the playground when I was 10. It was the same reason I was kicked when I was crying over another name calling.

Perhaps this reaction is viewed as cowardly. I know and am at peace with the fact that it's not.

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #107 on: January 12, 2021, 06:48:37 AM »

..... a terrorist attack--violence aimed at causing a desired political outcome...

Also the BLM protests in Seattle were to raise awareness of the racist policing we have here, inform voters, and propose policy for lawmakers.... 
 I won't call BLM protestors "traitors and terrorists."

@CodingHare Thanks for your post. It helped explain some of what I've thought of as a disconnect.
Would you expand on this?
 
Are you saying the BLM protests were "aimed at causing a desired political outcome" but were not planned to be violent and that is why you won't call them terrorists?

That makes sense to me but then I struggle with thinking that some (a minuscule minority maybe) of the BLM protestors were planning violence to ensure attention was paid. So maybe a few were terrorists?

I know quite a truck drivers were afraid to drive thru big cities for fear of the violence taking place. Do you distinguish that violence as a side effect, not an intention?

I understand if you don't want to get into it here but your post is enlightening.

Sure, happy to!  I guess we go back to definitions.  Both protests and terrorism try to effect change, often political.  Protests don't say, Do what we want or we will hang you.  They are saying, this group of people are unhappy and want x.  We will vote for x, we will disrupt people's lives and cost money (via blocking roads and the like) to make sure people are listening to us.  Often protests happen when lobbying through normal channels fails.  A small protest might be ignored.  A large one commands attention.

Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence.  Bomb the Pentagon so they can't organize strikes in the Middle East against insurgents, to use 9/11 as an example.  Threaten to hang Pence if he doesn't overthrow the vote of the people.


That's why I characterize BLM and the Capitol riots differently.

Ednt: Missed the question about your truck driver's example, hazard of replying on mobile.  I guess to me, I draw the line between inconveniencing society and harming its members.  So I don't think individuals should ever face violence against their person, and the ideal purpose of law enforcement is to prevent that.  On the flip side, in America money talks.  Block a highway and impct shipments?  No people harmed and not listening to the issue costs society in a real way.  I think racial justice and the murders of innocent people merit that level of reaction.

IIRC, at least in Seattle the protestors explicitly let ambulences and fire trucks through.

Sorry if that was a ramble, I had an upfront view last year and thought a lot about what the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor marches meant in terms of economic impact locally, and how the events were heavily spun my national media.

@CodingHare Thank you for the explanation of the differences you see.  Please allow me to push back a little. 

In the BLM protests, most people were peaceful and were legitimately there to draw attention to a problem so that our society could change for the better.  I totally get that and agree that in large part the intentions were good.  But, there were groups of people who perpetrated violence/vandalism and/or were holding signs or chanting "No Justice, No Peace" or "Know Justice, Know Peace".  I take that to mean that they will continue to prevent peace until there is justice.  That seems a lot like your definition of terrorism "Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence". 

In the capitol protests, most of the people were peaceful and were there because they legitimately believe that the election was stolen (they may be wrong but they have the right to a peaceful protest).  A small percentage of them turned violent and did terrible acts of terrorism.  Condemn the terrorists, prosecute them, throw the book at them.  I will be right there with you.  Just don't lump all conservatives in with them. 

jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #108 on: January 12, 2021, 06:55:44 AM »
Stop comparing BLM to traitors. This is a false equivalency, god.

1. BLM was for a legit cause that had some buildings damaged
2. The 6th was a conspiracy theory built on lies of a fraudulent election that had plans of executing members of congress to overthrow the gov't, with the help of some in law enforcement

they are NOT the same

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2021, 07:23:12 AM »
Stop comparing BLM to traitors. This is a false equivalency, god.

1. BLM was for a legit cause that had some buildings damaged
2. The 6th was a conspiracy theory built on lies of a fraudulent election that had plans of executing members of congress to overthrow the gov't, with the help of some in law enforcement

they are NOT the same

Nobody is comparing BLM (the bigger movement with good intentions) to the terrorists on the 6th.  Some of us are comparing the people who used violence for an end during the BLM riots and the people who used violence for an end on the 6th.  I consider them both terrorists and don't understand why there is so much more outcry against one than the other.  Also, people were injured and killed during the BLM protests, it wasn't just "some buildings damaged"  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/dallas-police-shooting.html

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2021, 07:32:05 AM »
1. BLM was for a legit cause that had some buildings damaged
2. The 6th was a conspiracy theory built on lies of a fraudulent election that had plans of executing members of congress to overthrow the gov't, with the help of some in law enforcement

they are NOT the same

While I agree that the two events were not the same, allow me to suggest that frame the difference being that the Floyd protests were for "a legit cause" (e.g. one that you agree with), is not a productive way to advance the discussion.

While I understand that this is not your intention, it ends up sounding like you have a problem with the occupation of the capitol because it was done in the name of a cause you do not support, rather than because occupying the capitol in order to try to overturn the results of democratic elections is unacceptable regardless of the cause the occupiers support.

People who disagree politically can agree that some tactics or actions are out of bounds regardless of the cause. Once you bring whether you agree with the position behind the tactics or action to the equation things rapidly degenerate to "the ends justify the means" and terrorism and treason become whatever the current party in power doesn't want people doing.

As someone who has spent the last four years in a country run by a government I fundamentally disagree with on a whole host of issues, I'd really rather we didn't go down that road in this country (more than we already have).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 07:34:16 AM by maizefolk »

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2021, 07:47:17 AM »
Nobody is comparing BLM (the bigger movement with good intentions) to the terrorists on the 6th.  Some of us are comparing the people who used violence for an end during the BLM riots and the people who used violence for an end on the 6th.  I consider them both terrorists and don't understand why there is so much more outcry against one than the other.  Also, people were injured and killed during the BLM protests, it wasn't just "some buildings damaged"  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/dallas-police-shooting.html

ericrugiero, my view is that the biggest difference between the two is that violence specifically directed at people by some attendee of the BLM protests seemed to mostly be not pre-meditated (and so not aimed at achieving political ends) but the result of putting lots of angry young people together in an environment where the rule of law wasn't being enforced, whereas the occupation of the capitol appears to have involved more planning and organization.

In our society, the same crime is almost always worse when it is premeditated. If two people commit murder, one getting in a fight at a bar and breaking their opponent's neck, and one person plans for weeks where and when they can shoot a person who they don't like, the latter generally receives a harsher sentence than the former.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 08:14:13 AM by maizefolk »

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2021, 07:59:03 AM »
Nobody is comparing BLM (the bigger movement with good intentions) to the terrorists on the 6th.  Some of us are comparing the people who used violence for an end during the BLM riots and the people who used violence for an end on the 6th.  I consider them both terrorists and don't understand why there is so much more outcry against one than the other.  Also, people were injured and killed during the BLM protests, it wasn't just "some buildings damaged"  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/dallas-police-shooting.html

ericrugiero, my view is that the biggest difference between the two is that violence specifically directed at people by some attendee of the BLM protests seemed to mostly be not pre-meditated (and so not aimed at achieving political ends) but the result of putting lots of angry young people together in an environment where the rule of law wasn't being enforces, whereas the occupation of the capitol appears to have involved more planning and organization.

In our society, the same crime is almost always worse when it is premeditated. If two people commit murder, one getting in a fight at a bar and breaking their opponent's neck, and one person plans for weeks where and when they can shoot a person who they don't like, the latter generally receives a harsher sentence than the former.

This makes sense and I hadn't thought of it that way.  Thanks

I also like your post above about the importance of separating the discussion of "legit cause" vs the specific actions which are not OK no matter what the cause is.  We should all be able to agree that some actions are not OK no matter what cause the people are supporting.   

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2021, 08:04:01 AM »
I take "no justice, no peace" to mean that we're going to be out here loud and marching until there is justice.

I also think people who burn down Targets under the cover of a BLM protest suck. Are they as bad as the Capitol rioters? It's hard to tell. The Capitol rioters fought cops and killed one. And we're probably lucky they didn't kill elected officials.

Either way though, they're both bad.

The way to stop violence at BLM protests is,

1. Marchers police each other. They mostly do this. There's lots of great video of this happening from over the Summer and over 90% of protests were peaceful.
2. Cops stop killing unarmed black people.
3. More equitable treatment overall. i.e., if you go to a good school or have a good job or live in a nice home, you're probably less likely to feel like burning your city down.

The way to stop the violence at the Capitol was much simpler: Trump concedes on November 7th, when it was clear he would lose the election. No lies about election integrity. No cowardly congresspeople enabling him.

This is what makes the comparison fall flat IMO. Racial equity is a real issue. Election integrity is a made up issue.

CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2021, 08:24:59 AM »
@CodingHare Thank you for the explanation of the differences you see.  Please allow me to push back a little. 

In the BLM protests, most people were peaceful and were legitimately there to draw attention to a problem so that our society could change for the better.  I totally get that and agree that in large part the intentions were good.  But, there were groups of people who perpetrated violence/vandalism and/or were holding signs or chanting "No Justice, No Peace" or "Know Justice, Know Peace".  I take that to mean that they will continue to prevent peace until there is justice.  That seems a lot like your definition of terrorism "Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence". 

In the capitol protests, most of the people were peaceful and were there because they legitimately believe that the election was stolen (they may be wrong but they have the right to a peaceful protest).  A small percentage of them turned violent and did terrible acts of terrorism.  Condemn the terrorists, prosecute them, throw the book at them.  I will be right there with you.  Just don't lump all conservatives in with them.

I think others have beaten the dead horse on why BLM vs the Capitol riots are different.  I just wanted to respond to lumping all conservatives in with them, since I think maybe that is at the heart of why not condemning both groups might feel unfair.

I do not think every single person at DC on the 5th was a traitor and a terrorist personally.  I do not think all conservatives are traitors and terrorists.  What I know is that the following conservative leadership in particular whipped up the lies that lead to the 5th:

  • Trump
  • Cruz
  • Hawley
  • 139 House GOP members who voted to object to the electors from Arizona and/or Pennsylvania after the riots, despite seeing the same evidence of no election fraud as the rest of us.

So the people I think are traitors (and I use that word to mean traitors to the democratic process our country is founded on) are up above.  The terrorists are the people who broke into the capital building.  I'm seeing some on the right call out this behavior (Mitt Romney and Arnold Schwarzenegger, in particular.)  I think in the interests of unity, bipartisanship, and empathy, conservatives need to clean out their own trash.  I want to see official censure.  I want to see bipartisan impeachment.  I don't want consequences for insurrection at the capital and lying to court your base to be a left versus right issue.  We'll see how that pans out over the next few days.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #115 on: January 12, 2021, 08:25:52 AM »
I am scared to death. I know enough about the runup to the Nazis and other nasty things in history. I don't know what I can do though. My husband thinks I am being foolish.  I've had a rough year.

 I don't think it would help to hoard things or change my asset allocation. I keep a pretty low profile and only talk politics with certain close friends, never on social media.  The area where I live is fairly buttoned up. We had a very peaceful BLM protest in June.

 I/ my family wouldn't be a first target by a long shot, but I worry about friends who would. I have British citizenship but it's not much better there right now.

I don't watch the news too closely. I keep an eye on the headlines and my dad sends me an article sometimes. I don't watch video news at all because seeing Trump is an anxiety trigger for me.

I am not religious but I am praying in my foxhole for a peaceful next ten days. Maybe even an impeachment.
BiB (I added the bold): for sure we have 99 problems here in the UK but insurrection plotted by our elected leaders isn't one of them.

ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2021, 08:27:41 AM »
This is what makes the comparison fall flat IMO. Racial equity is a real issue. Election integrity is a made up issue.

There's still enough voter suppression laws and policies on the book in many states. So maybe there are some ways to channel the "election integrity" discussion to make sure that a "downtown Atlanta black single mom" has the same access to voting as a rural farmer, and of course to make sure nobody else can vote in her name. :-D

Perhaps some sort of amendment to the federal voter rights laws that state "Any valid citizen of the US, who is resident in a specific state should not be turned away from voting either absentee or in-person, and should have a voting booth present within X minutes on foot. The burden of proof is on the state officials to prove he is not eligible as long as the voter in question can provide basic information (SSN, Address etc)".   
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 08:36:27 AM by ctuser1 »

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2021, 08:34:25 AM »
This is what makes the comparison fall flat IMO. Racial equity is a real issue. Election integrity is a made up issue.

There's still enough voter suppression laws and policies on the book in many states. So maybe there are some ways to channel the "election integrity" discussion to make sure that a "downtown Atlanta black single mom" has the same access to voting as a rural farmer, and of course to make sure nobody else can vote in her name. :-D

I am of course, incredibly sympathetic to issues like that. But for as wild as this election was with COVID, it seems like it was about as secure as it ever was. So I'm reticent to even indulge questions about integrity (even to try to expand access and up voter participation) because it's a dangerous road to go down when there's just no evidence.

My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Cool Friend

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2021, 08:39:30 AM »
1. BLM was for a legit cause that had some buildings damaged
2. The 6th was a conspiracy theory built on lies of a fraudulent election that had plans of executing members of congress to overthrow the gov't, with the help of some in law enforcement

they are NOT the same

While I agree that the two events were not the same, allow me to suggest that frame the difference being that the Floyd protests were for "a legit cause" (e.g. one that you agree with), is not a productive way to advance the discussion.

While I understand that this is not your intention, it ends up sounding like you have a problem with the occupation of the capitol because it was done in the name of a cause you do not support, rather than because occupying the capitol in order to try to overturn the results of democratic elections is unacceptable regardless of the cause the occupiers support.

People who disagree politically can agree that some tactics or actions are out of bounds regardless of the cause. Once you bring whether you agree with the position behind the tactics or action to the equation things rapidly degenerate to "the ends justify the means" and terrorism and treason become whatever the current party in power doesn't want people doing.

As someone who has spent the last four years in a country run by a government I fundamentally disagree with on a whole host of issues, I'd really rather we didn't go down that road in this country (more than we already have).

jehovasfitness: one is legitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable reality, and the other is illegitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable lies.
maizefolk: wow so one is illegitimate simply because you disagree with it??



ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2021, 08:39:34 AM »
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" gang are getting with de-platforming. I hope it extends all the way to RNC being de-platformed.

More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince a small fraction of crazies to become less crazy.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 08:43:19 AM by ctuser1 »

jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2021, 08:40:36 AM »
@CodingHare Thank you for the explanation of the differences you see.  Please allow me to push back a little. 

In the BLM protests, most people were peaceful and were legitimately there to draw attention to a problem so that our society could change for the better.  I totally get that and agree that in large part the intentions were good.  But, there were groups of people who perpetrated violence/vandalism and/or were holding signs or chanting "No Justice, No Peace" or "Know Justice, Know Peace".  I take that to mean that they will continue to prevent peace until there is justice.  That seems a lot like your definition of terrorism "Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence". 

In the capitol protests, most of the people were peaceful and were there because they legitimately believe that the election was stolen (they may be wrong but they have the right to a peaceful protest).  A small percentage of them turned violent and did terrible acts of terrorism.  Condemn the terrorists, prosecute them, throw the book at them.  I will be right there with you.  Just don't lump all conservatives in with them.

I think others have beaten the dead horse on why BLM vs the Capitol riots are different.  I just wanted to respond to lumping all conservatives in with them, since I think maybe that is at the heart of why not condemning both groups might feel unfair.

I do not think every single person at DC on the 5th was a traitor and a terrorist personally.  I do not think all conservatives are traitors and terrorists.  What I know is that the following conservative leadership in particular whipped up the lies that lead to the 5th:

  • Trump
  • Cruz
  • Hawley
  • 139 House GOP members who voted to object to the electors from Arizona and/or Pennsylvania after the riots, despite seeing the same evidence of no election fraud as the rest of us.

So the people I think are traitors (and I use that word to mean traitors to the democratic process our country is founded on) are up above.  The terrorists are the people who broke into the capital building.  I'm seeing some on the right call out this behavior (Mitt Romney and Arnold Schwarzenegger, in particular.)  I think in the interests of unity, bipartisanship, and empathy, conservatives need to clean out their own trash.  I want to see official censure.  I want to see bipartisan impeachment.  I don't want consequences for insurrection at the capital and lying to court your base to be a left versus right issue.  We'll see how that pans out over the next few days.

100%

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2021, 08:43:25 AM »
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2021, 08:49:29 AM »
jehovasfitness: one is legitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable reality, and the other is illegitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable lies.
maizefolk: wow so one is illegitimate simply because you disagree with it??

@Cool Friend  hat is a mischaracterization of my post, which you quoted alongside this statement.

If you're prefer the TL;DR version:

The illegitimacy or legitimacy of a cause shouldn't have to be a factor in condemning the occupation of the capitol building. That action, in of itself, is and should be out of bounds.

Politically, focusing on the tactic being out of bounds gets something like 7/8 americans to agree with you (making it easier to impose consequences on those responsible).

If you focus on whether or not they both agree with the justifications for the black lives matters protests AND disagree with the justifications given for storming the capitol you end up with a lot less and make it more likely people like Cruz and Hawley get off scot-free.

ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2021, 08:54:41 AM »
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2021, 08:57:37 AM »
jehovasfitness: one is legitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable reality, and the other is illegitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable lies.
maizefolk: wow so one is illegitimate simply because you disagree with it??

@Cool Friend  hat is a mischaracterization of my post, which you quoted alongside this statement.

If you're prefer the TL;DR version:

The illegitimacy or legitimacy of a cause shouldn't have to be a factor in condemning the occupation of the capitol building. That action, in of itself, is and should be out of bounds.

Politically, focusing on the tactic being out of bounds gets something like 7/8 americans to agree with you (making it easier to impose consequences on those responsible).

If you focus on whether or not they both agree with the justifications for the black lives matters protests AND disagree with the justifications given for storming the capitol you end up with a lot less and make it more likely people like Cruz and Hawley get off scot-free.

I actually disagree. If the election had actually been stolen, then we no longer live in a legitimate or functional democracy and violent revolution is probably justified.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2021, 09:01:26 AM »
I actually disagree. If the election had actually been stolen, then we no longer live in a legitimate or functional democracy and violent revolution is probably justified.

Fair enough. In that case I agree you have no choice but to argue that the occupation of the capital was wrong only because the cause the occupiers were acting in support of is wrong.

It's a tougher row to hoe, but it is the option open to you. Good luck!

Cool Friend

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2021, 09:04:11 AM »
jehovasfitness: one is legitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable reality, and the other is illegitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable lies.
maizefolk: wow so one is illegitimate simply because you disagree with it??

@Cool Friend  hat is a mischaracterization of my post, which you quoted alongside this statement.

If you're prefer the TL;DR version:

The illegitimacy or legitimacy of a cause shouldn't have to be a factor in condemning the occupation of the capitol building. That action, in of itself, is and should be out of bounds.

Politically, focusing on the tactic being out of bounds gets something like 7/8 americans to agree with you (making it easier to impose consequences on those responsible).

If you focus on whether or not they both agree with the justifications for the black lives matters protests AND disagree with the justifications given for storming the capitol you end up with a lot less and make it more likely people like Cruz and Hawley get off scot-free.

You mischaracterized jehovaswitness post by presuming "legit" meant "agreed on," giving the belief in the verifiable lie that the election was stolen from Trump an unmerited respectability.

As Mathlete pointed out, unfortunately the legitimacy of that belief is very important to the people who believe it.

Nobody is focusing on the above underlined because the BLM protests (or riots, if that's how you see them) are totally irrelevant to the topic.

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2021, 09:20:40 AM »
I actually disagree. If the election had actually been stolen, then we no longer live in a legitimate or functional democracy and violent revolution is probably justified.

Fair enough. In that case I agree you have no choice but to argue that the occupation of the capital was wrong only because the cause the occupiers were acting in support of is wrong.

It's a tougher row to hoe, but it is the option open to you. Good luck!

We live in a country that fetishizes merchants and landowners from the 1700s who rioted and threw tea in a harbor and then took up arms against the government over governing and tax disputes. We live in a country that is armed to the teeth under the justification that weapons are needed to rise up against a tyrannical government.

I don't think it's a tough argument to make at all. For Americans, this is what is expected of them in the face of a subversion of the will of the people.

I can blame them for being incredibly stupid and emotionally leveraged. And I do. I can want them held legally accountable for bashing Officer Sicknick's head in. And I do. But I think most of the blame should go higher.

Just a random statement from one of over 100 congressmen who supported this nonsense. On Jan 4th;

Quote
January 6th is fast approaching, the future of this Republic hinges on the actions of a solitary few.

Get ready, the fate of a nation rests on our shoulders, yours and mine. Let’s show Washington that our backbones are made of steel and titanium.

It’s time to fight.

When the context is accusations of a stolen election, and the audience is Americans, an occupation of the Capitol is exactly what this is asking for.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2021, 09:32:24 AM »
You mischaracterized jehovaswitness post by presuming "legit" meant "agreed on," giving the belief in the verifiable lie that the election was stolen from Trump an unmerited respectability.

No. I said that jehovasfitness23 agreed with the BLM protests (based on him or her described them as legit). <-- note "fitness" not "witness."

I said the legitimacy of the cause people use to justify occupying the capitol shouldn't matter, the action should be off bounds regardless. In conversations with people on the right where the BLM protests come up, I have explicitly said that if protestors supporting that cause broke into the capitol and occupied it, that would also be wrong, and the people who did it (and the people who encouraged it) should be arrested and held accountable. But they didn't do that, so let's focus on holding accountable the people who did. And you know what? ... it works. The whole side tangent about BLM goes away and we can focus on what actually did happen and what should be done about it.

I also, in a separate post admittedly, articulated why I don't think even the violence that occurred during some of those protests should be -- or are being -- considered comparable to what happened in DC on Wednesday. I've given my view that "the people who broke into congress should be arrested, given trials, convicted (which should be quite easy with the wealth of evidence they themselves collected, streamed, and posted) and sent to prison. The leaders in congress (people like Hawley and Cruz) should be expelled."


Quote

Nobody is focusing on the above underlined because the BLM protests (or riots, if that's how you see them) are totally irrelevant to the topic.

From the underlined it sounds like you are perceiving me as a right winger. For what it is worth, based on polling, election outcomes vs my own voting history, and personal observations my own guess is I'm somewhere around the 65th to 70th percentile for liberalness in our country. But obviously you can come to your own conclusions.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2021, 09:42:46 AM »


 I know there aren't a ton of religious people that post here, but regardless of how religious a person is/isn't, I think most people agree that "The Golden Rule" is a pretty worthy objective for how we interact with others.

I enthusiastically agree.

The incorporation  of  The Golden Rule  in the secular sphere consists of institutions of justice that seek equitable treatment of all who come before them.

CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #130 on: January 12, 2021, 09:46:37 AM »
maizefolk, I actually feel like this might be a great example of talking past each other?  I actually think we have a lot of common ground.

* We agree that violence isn't good for our democracy
* We agree that the perpetrators at the capitol need to be held accountable
* We agree that shootings that happen at any protest are bad and need to be prosecuted

Sometimes internet threads like this, it's easy to focus on what we disagree on.  Certainly, it's a big concern of mine that BLM and the Capital riots not be falsely equivocated.  My reason for worrying about it is that police response to BLM, even the peaceful protestors doing everything right, was to teargas and rubber bullet them.  Meanwhile they opened the barricades for the right wing protestors at the capital.  That is why equivalence feels dangerous to me--because enforcement of these two protest groups is NOT equal.

But overall, it seems to me like we agree more than we disagree.

Cool Friend

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #131 on: January 12, 2021, 09:51:00 AM »
You mischaracterized jehovaswitness post by presuming "legit" meant "agreed on," giving the belief in the verifiable lie that the election was stolen from Trump an unmerited respectability.

No. I said that jehovasfitness23 agreed with the BLM protests (based on him or her described them as legit). <-- note "fitness" not "witness."



It makes no difference. The legitimacy of either does not hinge on their support/agreement.

Quote
I said the legitimacy of the cause people use to justify occupying the capitol shouldn't matter, the action should be off bounds regardless.

Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it does. You're not going to convince the people who stormed the Capitol or approve of doing so that it's off bounds. It already happened, remember? They did it. It was on January 6th. Remember? And they're organizing to do it again. In light of of the lies they bought into, it is justifiable resistance. You're not going to convince them that it's wrong to take back the government from a hostile power that illegally stole an election from the President. Because that's what they believe and what you have to contend with.

Quote
From the underlined it sounds like you are perceiving me as a right winger.

Another false presumption. "If" was not a word I put in there for fun.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #132 on: January 12, 2021, 09:58:29 AM »
Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it does. You're not going to convince the people who stormed the Capitol or approve of doing so that it's off bounds. It already happened, remember? They did it. It was on January 6th. Remember? And they're organizing to do it again. In light of of the lies they bought into, it is justifiable resistance. You're not going to convince them that it's wrong to take back the government from a hostile power that illegally stole an election from the President. Because that's what they believe and what you have to contend with.

No, but I'm having a fair bit of success at convincing people who otherwise support Trump that they don't support the people who stormed the capitol and that those who did, and those who encouraged it should be held accountable.

From the folks posting on this thread, it sounds like people who argue from the point of view that it was wrong because the cause behind it was wrong (rather than because the action was wrong) are having less success. But that is indeed an assumption on my part. Are you having much success at convincing people (edit: who didn't already vote for Biden) using that strategy?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 10:04:20 AM by maizefolk »

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #133 on: January 12, 2021, 10:05:56 AM »
Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it does. You're not going to convince the people who stormed the Capitol or approve of doing so that it's off bounds. It already happened, remember? They did it. It was on January 6th. Remember? And they're organizing to do it again. In light of of the lies they bought into, it is justifiable resistance. You're not going to convince them that it's wrong to take back the government from a hostile power that illegally stole an election from the President. Because that's what they believe and what you have to contend with.

No, but I'm having a fair bit of success at convincing people who otherwise support Trump that they don't support the people who stormed the capitol and that those who did, and those who encouraged it should be held accountable.

From the folks posting on this thread, it sounds like people who argue from the point of view that it was wrong because the cause behind it was wrong (rather than because the action was wrong) are having less success. But that is indeed an assumption on my part. Are you having much success at convincing people (edit: who didn't already vote for Biden) using that strategy?

Good on you. But this is just smoothing things over.

If the lies aren't also acknowledged as wrong, all we've done is set a precedent. One crisis of democracy and one dead cop every four years is totally acceptable now.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #134 on: January 12, 2021, 10:07:43 AM »
Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it does. You're not going to convince the people who stormed the Capitol or approve of doing so that it's off bounds. It already happened, remember? They did it. It was on January 6th. Remember? And they're organizing to do it again. In light of of the lies they bought into, it is justifiable resistance. You're not going to convince them that it's wrong to take back the government from a hostile power that illegally stole an election from the President. Because that's what they believe and what you have to contend with.

No, but I'm having a fair bit of success at convincing people who otherwise support Trump that they don't support the people who stormed the capitol and that those who did, and those who encouraged it should be held accountable.

From the folks posting on this thread, it sounds like people who argue from the point of view that it was wrong because the cause behind it was wrong (rather than because the action was wrong) are having less success. But that is indeed an assumption on my part. Are you having much success at convincing people (edit: who didn't already vote for Biden) using that strategy?

Supporting Trump led to this. They were warned for 4 yrs, of course they agree with it, they're just too chickenshit to admit to it. They sat idly by for 4 yrs slowly letting it all lead to it b/c they silently watched it all unfold.

At least 45% of republicans agree with it. That's a massive and sad amount, but not shocking

CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #135 on: January 12, 2021, 10:13:54 AM »
No, but I'm having a fair bit of success at convincing people who otherwise support Trump that they don't support the people who stormed the capitol and that those who did, and those who encouraged it should be held accountable.

That's good!  Being able to accept actions as wrong regardless of side is a good step for those people.  Thanks for doing that work.

From the folks posting on this thread, it sounds like people who argue from the point of view that it was wrong because the cause behind it was wrong (rather than because the action was wrong) are having less success. But that is indeed an assumption on my part. Are you having much success at convincing people using that strategy?
Given that the only Trump supporter in my family/friend group's response to gently questioning the validity of the election fraud claims was to yell, "I LOVE TRUMP, 4 MORE YEARS", no, not really.  When asking questions (not jumping to accusations) is taken as a personal attack, dialogue is dead.

I live in Western WA, so the number of Trump supporters I encounter is very low.  My parents are conservative, but neither of them voted for Trump and have been horrified through all of his Presidency.  They are Mitt Romney conservatives, who I disagree with but can have some discussion with.

I've had good success calling the election fraud claims baseless lies based on the evidence.   The line I've seen is this: People interested in dialogue based on verifiable facts respond to sourcing the many Republican nominated judges who found no evidence of election fraud across several states.  People who are emotionally attached to Trump get angry when facts are presented.  They are the ones saying the people at the capitol were actually antifa plants to make conservatives look bad.  They may condemn the violence, but they refuse to say that their side is responsible for it or even did it.

Those people, I have no idea how to make inroads with.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #136 on: January 12, 2021, 10:16:34 AM »
If the lies aren't also acknowledged as wrong, all we've done is set a precedent. One crisis of democracy and one dead cop every four years is totally acceptable now.

I agree. But if there aren't consequences for the people who provoked the crisis that lead to the deaths. (And I count the blame for Howard Liebengood's death in addition to Brian Sicknick's) we've set an even worse precedent:

That you can attempt to overthrow the outcome of an election, and either it works or it doesn't and you can go on about your life, wait, and try again in four years.

At least 45% of republicans agree with it. That's a massive and sad amount, but not shocking

Where are you seeing 45%? The number I found was 18% of republicans.  Source: https://thehill.com/homenews/news/533452-poll-18-percent-of-republicans-support-capitol-riots

CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #137 on: January 12, 2021, 10:18:02 AM »
Does the "off topic" section not exist anymore?

It does seem like most of this thread is now focused on arguing over how to classify what happened.  90% arguing, 10% what we are doing.  A small microcosm of the human condition?  ;)  Anyway, it does seem like it now belongs in Off Topic.

former player

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #138 on: January 12, 2021, 10:21:28 AM »
@maizefolk

I'm impressed with how you've tackled this thread.

I don't have much to add outside that kudos. Focussing on moving past the Us vs Them argument is a noble cause, and one I wish more people would try and tackle. The divisiveness of always identifying an Other to hate and blame seems lost on way too many people, and the admittedly harder steps it takes to empathize with "them" in any avenue should be applauded.

If anyone knows for sure they are 100% right about something then they should have a good footing to understand how frustrated the other side is when they think they're 100% right. The world works in shades of grey, not absolutes.

Caveat for those that need it: The attack on the capital was insane, wrong and unprecedented. I am Canadian so have less invested in the exact topic but know that from the outside lots of the world is lumping America into its own "Them" category, which includes everyone there... Seems a bit unfair no?
I agree with a lot of this, but I am 100% sure that Trump lost an honestly held election and then he and some ambitious and weak-willed politician lied about it to millions of poor fools in order to incite insurrection.  I'm not seeing the shades of grey on that one.

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #139 on: January 12, 2021, 10:24:53 AM »
Personally, I think it’s okay for communities to occasionally talk about stuff other than payoff vs mortgage or VTI vs VOO.


CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #140 on: January 12, 2021, 10:29:14 AM »
Personally, I think it’s okay for communities to occasionally talk about stuff other than payoff vs mortgage or VTI vs VOO.

I agree.  It's precisely because I respect this community and find a lot of thoughtful posters here that I've engaged here on this topic (as well as the payoffs and Gauntlet threads.)  There's lots of good ideas here, and the general idea that intelligent people can never hope to agree on politics and shouldn't discuss them for politeness's sake has done a lot of damage to our discourse.  My understanding of the forum norms was that political content does get moved to Off Topic.  But that's a mods decision, not mine.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #141 on: January 12, 2021, 10:30:13 AM »
Personally, I think it’s okay for communities to occasionally talk about stuff other than payoff vs mortgage or VTI vs VOO.

Yes, but that's why we have the off topic section. FWIW, I agree the thread should probably move there at this point. Which is too bad, I was really interested in the original premise, although I acknowledge contributing substantially to the derailment.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #142 on: January 12, 2021, 10:31:27 AM »
If the lies aren't also acknowledged as wrong, all we've done is set a precedent. One crisis of democracy and one dead cop every four years is totally acceptable now.

I agree. But if there aren't consequences for the people who provoked the crisis that lead to the deaths. (And I count the blame for Howard Liebengood's death in addition to Brian Sicknick's) we've set an even worse precedent:

That you can attempt to overthrow the outcome of an election, and either it works or it doesn't and you can go on about your life, wait, and try again in four years.

At least 45% of republicans agree with it. That's a massive and sad amount, but not shocking

Where are you seeing 45%? The number I found was 18% of republicans.  Source: https://thehill.com/homenews/news/533452-poll-18-percent-of-republicans-support-capitol-riots

the hill piece should read 18% of all or something like that

https://www.news10.com/news/us-capitol-coverage/poll-one-fifth-of-voters-almost-half-of-republicans-agree-with-storming-of-us-capitol/

that also tracks with this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/02/majority-of-republicans-believe-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-partly-or-mostly-true-survey-finds/

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #143 on: January 12, 2021, 10:32:51 AM »



I actually disagree. If the election had actually been stolen, then we no longer live in a legitimate or functional democracy and violent revolution is probably justified.


Politics is a  rife with corruption because politics  and its practitioners are intrinsically Machiavellian.

 Understanding this, a stolen election alone would not suffice for me to justify violent revolution.

Only if Judge Kozinski's doomsday contingency eventuated, "where all other rights have failed," would I advocate and participate  in violent revolution.


Silveira v. Lockyer (2003)

The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed — where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once. Judge Kozinski (Dissent)

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #144 on: January 12, 2021, 10:41:19 AM »
the hill piece should read 18% of all or something like that

https://www.news10.com/news/us-capitol-coverage/poll-one-fifth-of-voters-almost-half-of-republicans-agree-with-storming-of-us-capitol/

that also tracks with this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/02/majority-of-republicans-believe-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-partly-or-mostly-true-survey-finds/

I don't think it can be mistake in the sentence. The same number is present, using different words, at the original source: http://maristpoll.marist.edu/pbs-newshour-marist-poll-results-analysis-insurrection-at-the-capitol/#sthash.AYe9ptLF.dpbs

"Most Americans 88% either oppose or strongly oppose Wednesday's insurgency. Partisan consensus exists. Though, 18% of the GOP say they support the riots."

If 18% of all americans supported the insurgency, it wouldn't be possible for 88% of all americans to oppose or strongly oppose it.

Here is how the question was worded:

"Trump supporters broke into the U.S. Capitol to disrupt the process of certifying the results of the presidential election that showed Joe Biden won. From what you've read or heard, do you strongly support, support, oppose, or strongly oppose the actions of the Trump supporters who broke into the U.S. Capitol?"

96% of democrats, 86% of independents and 80% of republicans answered oppose or strongly oppose. (It's on page 10 of the PDF report).

Edit: After reading through the link you posted, the higher percent of total voters approving (21\%) traces back to a YouGov poll which is based on online responses. Marist/PBS has historically been much better at predicting the outcomes of elections than YouGov. It's up to you whether you feel that same accuracy translates into accuracy for more opinion based polls like this one.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 10:54:59 AM by maizefolk »

FrugalToque

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #145 on: January 12, 2021, 10:42:44 AM »
Re: discussing the Jan 6th insurrection and trying to decide whether or not it was terrorism.

Like Chomsky, I'm going to use the US definition of terrorism: violence or the threat of violence against civilians for the purpose of changing political views.

When you blow up the WTC becuase you don't like U.S. foreign policy, you're killing civilians to change politics -> terrorism
When you blow up the USS Cole for the same reason -> act of war (those aren't civilans)

I don't know that attacking the Capitol with the recorded, stated intent to "Hang Mike Pence", capture others with plastic handcuffs and execute/ransom them, is precisely terrorism.  Do top politicians count as "civilians" in the sense we mean it?  It's more accurately insurrection and/or an act of war.

Note that it gets you on the same No-Fly List, though.

As for BLM. That's a protest movement.  Is it violent?  Violence was involved but it's always a question of who started it.  Was it using violence, explicitly, for the purpose of effecting political change?  In the same way that the Jan 6th insurrection planned to hang Mike Pence?  Not really.  There's the vague connection between, "Hey, if you'd stop murdering black people over a bag of skittles, maybe we won't burn down so many department stores."  But the movement doesn't use that in some kind of manifesto, published on the Internet, like the insurrectionists do.

My reaction to BLM is, "It's unforunate that violence is involved, but the primary issue is centuries of mistreating African Americans."

My reaction to the Capitol insurrection is, "These people are a bunch of white supremacists who are clearly misinformed, willfully and aggressively ignorant, and were allowed to do horribly violent things that anyone in the BLM movement would have been murdered for before they even got into the Capitol building."

I can't see equating them.  The BLM people are factually correct about mistreatment.  The Trump supporters are factually incorrect and wave racist symbols around.  Pretending that we can divide or equate them by assigning/not-assigning them the label "terrorist" is probably missing a lot of facts in order to assign labels.

Labels, I've been reliably told, are the opposite of understanding.

My purpose is understanding (that and making sure white supremacists and other assholes don't use this forum for their views.)

Toque.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #146 on: January 12, 2021, 11:15:39 AM »
@maizefolk

I'm impressed with how you've tackled this thread.

I don't have much to add outside that kudos. Focussing on moving past the Us vs Them argument is a noble cause, and one I wish more people would try and tackle. The divisiveness of always identifying an Other to hate and blame seems lost on way too many people, and the admittedly harder steps it takes to empathize with "them" in any avenue should be applauded.

If anyone knows for sure they are 100% right about something then they should have a good footing to understand how frustrated the other side is when they think they're 100% right. The world works in shades of grey, not absolutes.

Caveat for those that need it: The attack on the capital was insane, wrong and unprecedented. I am Canadian so have less invested in the exact topic but know that from the outside lots of the world is lumping America into its own "Them" category, which includes everyone there... Seems a bit unfair no?
I agree with a lot of this, but I am 100% sure that Trump lost an honestly held election and then he and some ambitious and weak-willed politician lied about it to millions of poor fools in order to incite insurrection.  I'm not seeing the shades of grey on that one.

I agree.

The people who stormed the capital were led there by lies and deceit they should have seen it coming. The shades get added when people start expanding that out to everyone at Trumps rally, then to everyone that voted Trump, then to every Republican. Creating groups to hate causes more division, but because it's the simplest way to tackle a topic and feel good (I'm right, and they're wrong) it's hard to move past.

Not a reply to you: I recommend anyone that repeatedly thinks that they are more learned and have read way more about a topic without having even asked others how much they have to take a good look at how radicalized they sound. "I know more so your opinion doesn't matter" is a feeble argument. We know you agree with yourself, but justifying that your opinion is the only one that deserves any light is kind of how this mess got started.

seattlecyclone

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #147 on: January 12, 2021, 11:47:26 AM »
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.


This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #148 on: January 12, 2021, 11:57:08 AM »
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.


This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.
Given the rabid search by Republicans for evidence of fraud in the 2020 Presidential election and its complete and utter failure, #2 has already been achieved.

FrugalToque

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #149 on: January 12, 2021, 12:03:25 PM »
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.


This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.
Given the rabid search by Republicans for evidence of fraud in the 2020 Presidential election and its complete and utter failure, #2 has already been achieved.
Yeah, how many hundreds of thousands of people - maybe millions - have been unable to vote because they're supposedly worried about the 4 or 5 people who stole their grandmother's mail-in ballot or whatever?  It's getting a little silly, tbh.