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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: caseywoolley on April 27, 2016, 09:56:13 AM

Title: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on April 27, 2016, 09:56:13 AM
Housing and transportation are about 50% of the average American's spending.  Mustachians sidestep some of these costs by being smarter about home size and car use despite the fact that suburbia and most cities are designed to prevent this.  Good neighborhoods often mandate larger homes with long commutes and most cities are designed for cars, not people.  Some cities are better than others but for the most part they're homogeneous "Exploding Volcanos of Wastefulness." 

Ditching city life has way too many tradeoffs to be worth it.  But what if we "ditched" the current city model?  Could a group of like minded Mustachians crowdfund their own super town with great amenities, walkability, and low cost of living?  What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: JustGettingStarted1980 on April 27, 2016, 10:24:12 AM
Sounds expensive :) 

Good thought experiment. But extremely difficult to do unless people were already retired and didn't need jobs, AND there was a uber-wealthy benefactor willing to contribute billions of start-up costs to build the infrastructure necessary for a modern town or city.

For example, sewers, sidewalks, roads, police stations, hospitals, fire stations, schools, libraries don't come cheap last time I checked, and I'd be unwilling to live in a place without these amenities.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on April 27, 2016, 11:13:56 AM
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/16/a-badass-utopia/
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Metric Mouse on April 27, 2016, 12:31:20 PM
Sounds expensive :) 

Good thought experiment. But extremely difficult to do unless people were already retired and didn't need jobs, AND there was a uber-wealthy benefactor willing to contribute billions of start-up costs to build the infrastructure necessary for a modern town or city.

For example, sewers, sidewalks, roads, police stations, hospitals, fire stations, schools, libraries don't come cheap last time I checked, and I'd be unwilling to live in a place without these amenities.

Wouldn't a true mustachian city be built by the residents DIY style?
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: hoping2retire35 on April 27, 2016, 02:14:31 PM
You would want a "ghost town" where a lot of infrastructure is already in place but the population is not using it. fairly small, capable of handling approximately ~10,000(good number to maintain flexibility and still get economies of scale). SoCal would be great but it is already taken and running out of water. next choice might be northern New Mexico, warm mild climate maybe with some slight elevation.

then the hard part; once the town has been chosen how do you have a gentleman's agreement that no one buys speculative lots.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: hoping2retire35 on April 27, 2016, 02:17:55 PM
got it.

we form a corporation, elect board member sell shares. the board selects the town(in secret) buys the available land/lots (then reveals the location) sell them and distributes revenue to shareholders, closes corporation.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on April 27, 2016, 03:09:19 PM
You would want a "ghost town" where a lot of infrastructure is already in place but the population is not using it. fairly small, capable of handling approximately ~10,000(good number to maintain flexibility and still get economies of scale). SoCal would be great but it is already taken and running out of water. next choice might be northern New Mexico, warm mild climate maybe with some slight elevation.

then the hard part; once the town has been chosen how do you have a gentleman's agreement that no one buys speculative lots.
I think you would want to build your own town, so you could make bike paths and footpaths instead of roads, require a permit to bring cars/equipment into the town, etc. have small lots and/or apartments so that people can live closer to each other and everything they need, etc. If you just wanted to live near other mustachians, move to longmont near MMM, I hear there's quite a few.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: hoping2retire35 on April 27, 2016, 03:24:23 PM
You would want a "ghost town" where a lot of infrastructure is already in place but the population is not using it. fairly small, capable of handling approximately ~10,000(good number to maintain flexibility and still get economies of scale). SoCal would be great but it is already taken and running out of water. next choice might be northern New Mexico, warm mild climate maybe with some slight elevation.

then the hard part; once the town has been chosen how do you have a gentleman's agreement that no one buys speculative lots.
I think you would want to build your own town, so you could make bike paths and footpaths instead of roads, require a permit to bring cars/equipment into the town, etc. have small lots and/or apartments so that people can live closer to each other and everything they need, etc. If you just wanted to live near other mustachians, move to longmont near MMM, I hear there's quite a few.
The difference between a bike lane and care lane is paint. the advantage of a "ghost town" is buildings, graded roads/paths, water and sewer lines already exist. there would need to be a lot of improvements, especially as you reached capacity but for the initial early adopters it would make things easier and cheaper and allow future improvements to be gradual while also not destroying previously undeveloped land.

it wouldn't have to be a ghost town in the sense the population has greatly decreased but could be a place where it never was populated as people/developers suspected.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on April 27, 2016, 03:27:26 PM
You would want a "ghost town" where a lot of infrastructure is already in place but the population is not using it. fairly small, capable of handling approximately ~10,000(good number to maintain flexibility and still get economies of scale). SoCal would be great but it is already taken and running out of water. next choice might be northern New Mexico, warm mild climate maybe with some slight elevation.

then the hard part; once the town has been chosen how do you have a gentleman's agreement that no one buys speculative lots.
I think you would want to build your own town, so you could make bike paths and footpaths instead of roads, require a permit to bring cars/equipment into the town, etc. have small lots and/or apartments so that people can live closer to each other and everything they need, etc. If you just wanted to live near other mustachians, move to longmont near MMM, I hear there's quite a few.
The difference between a bike lane and care lane is paint. the advantage of a "ghost town" is buildings, graded roads/paths, water and sewer lines already exist. there would need to be a lot of improvements, especially as you reached capacity but for the initial early adopters it would make things easier and cheaper and allow future improvements to be gradual while also not destroying previously undeveloped land.

it wouldn't have to be a ghost town in the sense the population has greatly decreased but could be a place where it never was populated as people/developers suspected.
If you choose an already existing place, then you will live near mustachians, but also near non-mustachians who already lived their. Many of the inefficiencies of normal cities will exist as well, probably huge lots that make biking places more dificult, etc.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: AZDude on April 27, 2016, 04:49:32 PM
https://arcosanti.org/
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on April 27, 2016, 07:25:17 PM
You would want a "ghost town" where a lot of infrastructure is already in place but the population is not using it. fairly small, capable of handling approximately ~10,000(good number to maintain flexibility and still get economies of scale). SoCal would be great but it is already taken and running out of water. next choice might be northern New Mexico, warm mild climate maybe with some slight elevation.

then the hard part; once the town has been chosen how do you have a gentleman's agreement that no one buys speculative lots.

My answer to the land speculation problem would be a Henry George land tax which is very mustachian in it's simplicity and efficiency: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2015/04/land-value-tax

The way I'd see it working in this situation would be a publicly held land trust and essentially a citizen's dividend from all land rents.  Speculation would then be impossible, sprawl eliminated, and all land would be put to it's most efficient use.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: hoping2retire35 on April 27, 2016, 08:25:05 PM
How is this different than property taxes now? Iirc Alaska is the only state that for the most part does not tax property. Most states have reduced rates for home owners who live on the premises. Farm land is often at a reduced rate ( if not the state governments would suddenly own 80% of all of their territory ASIs most farm land is not at it's maximum capacity.) propertytaxesthroughout mush of the US is a bought as high as markets can handle.

Even if you don't see property tax as theft doing what you say would not change development patterns that much since taxes are currently based on value. I think Portland or is one of the more famous cities to have a growth boundary and they are known to have problems.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Gone on April 28, 2016, 01:13:31 PM
Privately planned cities seem to rarely work. Cities aren't easy to make. Aside from actual problems of construction, any time a city is built around an ideology (good or bad), things tend to get wonky. Ask every libertarian utopia that's failed. Better to be involved in changing your current infrastructure than to Go Galt. Or at the very least, start on just the commune level and see if you can work your way up.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on April 28, 2016, 02:13:26 PM
Privately planned cities seem to rarely work. Cities aren't easy to make. Aside from actual problems of construction, any time a city is built around an ideology (good or bad), things tend to get wonky. Ask every libertarian utopia that's failed. Better to be involved in changing your current infrastructure than to Go Galt. Or at the very least, start on just the commune level and see if you can work your way up.
We're just dreaming here, we weren't planning on going out and building a city
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Allen Farlow on April 28, 2016, 07:42:09 PM
A recent article I read a few days ago which said states with zero income taxes had high sales taxes to replace that revenue.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/state-with-no-income-tax-better-or-worse-1.aspx (http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/state-with-no-income-tax-better-or-worse-1.aspx)

I think it would be interesting to start a small town where everyone works online in various niches, thus no need to drive anywhere for employment. It would, out of necessity, need to be built around a central shopping district within decent walking distance to reduce the need for motor vehicles.

And for Heaven's sake, the stores must accept PayPal!
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: bobechs on April 28, 2016, 08:36:20 PM
Military bases are planned communities where all infrastructure is integrated, an ideology governs its operation and often as not only limited accommodation to automobiles is built in.

Worldwide, and in the United States in particular, bases are often obsoleted and surplussed. That removes the ideological layer in one swoop.

But they are also highly desirable property plums for the local political-economic elite; no mustashcians need apply.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on April 29, 2016, 06:28:24 AM
A recent article I read a few days ago which said states with zero income taxes had high sales taxes to replace that revenue.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/state-with-no-income-tax-better-or-worse-1.aspx (http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/state-with-no-income-tax-better-or-worse-1.aspx)

I think it would be interesting to start a small town where everyone works online in various niches, thus no need to drive anywhere for employment. It would, out of necessity, need to be built around a central shopping district within decent walking distance to reduce the need for motor vehicles.

And for Heaven's sake, the stores must accept PayPal!

That's exactly my thinking.  Imagine a town of remote tech workers with shared work areas, shopping and amenities all in a walkable city.  And a lower cost of living to make those remote salaries go further.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on April 29, 2016, 07:13:35 AM
Sounds expensive :) 

Good thought experiment. But extremely difficult to do unless people were already retired and didn't need jobs, AND there was a uber-wealthy benefactor willing to contribute billions of start-up costs to build the infrastructure necessary for a modern town or city.

For example, sewers, sidewalks, roads, police stations, hospitals, fire stations, schools, libraries don't come cheap last time I checked, and I'd be unwilling to live in a place without these amenities.

If the average mustachian can live a middle class lifestyle at only 20-50% the cost of the average american, why not apply their creativity to building a city at a similar discount.  Would we really need the same bloated infrastructure everyone thinks is mandatory?  What about smart off grid housing?  And as someone else mentioned, remote workers would be the perfect early settlers to pump dollars into the local economy.

Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Allen Farlow on April 29, 2016, 07:54:00 AM
Which would be more preferable to you?

1. Housing separated from businesses, such as a central business area with housing dispersed around it.

2. A mix of housing and businesses, including housing above ground floor businesses.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: PursuingIndependence on April 29, 2016, 08:16:43 AM
This idea reminds me of a book I read a few years back, Walden II. A community was started based on simple living, self-sufficiency, and they built their own homes and all worked together. It was a pretty interesting concept. I remember thinking it would be cool to actually find a place like that. It is a little different in that in that book businesses were not really involved in their community and they were about hard work but enough to keep the community going while still enjoying life (I think it was a 4 hour work day?).
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: LennStar on April 29, 2016, 08:36:53 AM
Which would be more preferable to you?

1. Housing separated from businesses, such as a central business area with housing dispersed around it.

2. A mix of housing and businesses, including housing above ground floor businesses.
You are asking the wrong question, mainly by reducing the options.
First you can have both 1. and 2. in minimum distance.
I STRONGLY recommend everyone of you who is really interested in that topic to read this (and the there linked prior post)
http://urbankchoze.blogspot.nl/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html

by the way, Monasteries used to be mostly independend and often still try to do this. Of course you cant do your computer chips, but you can do a lot of stuff, especially if you are a community of intelligent, DIY prone people with lot of free time and basic financial resource already in place.

Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on April 29, 2016, 11:55:10 AM
I think if I were designing it, I'd want to build it around a small river, with river beaches on either side.
Lots of swimming, kayaking, rafting, floating, etc. can be done on the river
Have a huge park(probably a circle with a 2 mile diameter)  surrounded by apartments
Within the park have a few schools, a library, lots of sports fields(baseball fields, tennis courts, volleyball nets on river beaches, etc.), a few grocery stores,  a cafe, a health clinic and vet clinic(and be within a 1 hr drive of a bigger city with a hospital), a small fire department (which would also have ambulances that could rush you to the hospital in the bigger city), a small sheriffs office with 2-3 deputies (assuming we are our own county), outside the apartments we could have a golf course, bike trails (downhill etc.), Costco, county/town building, etc. things that we need/want occasionally, but not often enough to be in the park.
Ambulances, firetrucks, sherriffs vehicles, etc. are the only vehicles allowed in the park without a permit, all construction equipment etc. needs a permit, cars stay on other side of apartments. I'm guessing most people wouldn't own cars, some would own cars and use Turo or something similar to rent cars to whoever needs them when they aren't in use.
Apartments would be 200-1000 square feet each, the park could only support a small town, I'm not sure the exact amount but probably somewhere between 3,000-8,000 people, so we probably only need the apartments to be 3 story max apartments. If the town ended up being a big success, someone could use the knowledge learned from it to modify the design and make another one slightly up river
 I'd put in a Gen4 nuclear reactor just outside the town (they are testing many variations, we'd go for whichever makes the most sense), maybe this could be a main employer of the town, providing generation to ourselves and selling to surrounding areas as well.
Heres a very rough draft
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: HPstache on April 29, 2016, 12:00:46 PM
Frankly... it would probably become a pretty annoying place to live judging by the direction most of the topics go around here.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Metric Mouse on May 02, 2016, 04:38:43 AM
Frankly... it would probably become a pretty annoying place to live judging by the direction most of the topics go around here.

That would be people on the internet... Seems like the biggest issue people have with cities of any style is...other people.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 02, 2016, 06:16:56 AM
Sounds like a great idea in many ways, but any retail stores there would have a heck of a time surviving with so many cheapskates for customers.  The banks would go broke without suckers borrowing.  There wouldn't even be a Goodwill, because there'd be nothing worth donating after the MMM folks squeezed all the last drop of usefulness from everything.  You couldn't even sell mouse traps, because the mice would starve!  The only guy in town making any money from the locals would be selling bicycle tube patches, and maybe toilet paper....

The sketch above of the park on the river sounds nice, but I'd never consider living in an apartment.  I tried living in a small space, but hated it.  I need space for my stuff(tools & materials, and toys) & to work on projects.  I'd have gotten divorced a long time ago if we didn't have more sq feet. 

Sure we all could export our goods & services to non MMM areas, but we still wouldn't support a local economy that would be culturally interesting.  Restaurants, athletes, artists, and entertainers couldn't survive.  Costco & the library would be the local hot spots.  The park would be great on the sunny days, but where would we hang out the rest of the time? 

I'm sure a lot of this could be overcome, but it would take some serious thought & planning for us to learn to live without the "normal" wasteful culture that we are all used to exploiting.   
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 02, 2016, 09:34:19 AM
Sounds like a great idea in many ways, but any retail stores there would have a heck of a time surviving with so many cheapskates for customers.  The banks would go broke without suckers borrowing.  There wouldn't even be a Goodwill, because there'd be nothing worth donating after the MMM folks squeezed all the last drop of usefulness from everything.  You couldn't even sell mouse traps, because the mice would starve!  The only guy in town making any money from the locals would be selling bicycle tube patches, and maybe toilet paper....

The sketch above of the park on the river sounds nice, but I'd never consider living in an apartment.  I tried living in a small space, but hated it.  I need space for my stuff(tools & materials, and toys) & to work on projects.  I'd have gotten divorced a long time ago if we didn't have more sq feet. 

Sure we all could export our goods & services to non MMM areas, but we still wouldn't support a local economy that would be culturally interesting.  Restaurants, athletes, artists, and entertainers couldn't survive.  Costco & the library would be the local hot spots.  The park would be great on the sunny days, but where would we hang out the rest of the time? 

I'm sure a lot of this could be overcome, but it would take some serious thought & planning for us to learn to live without the "normal" wasteful culture that we are all used to exploiting.
Half the point of my design was to eliminate the need of cars where people do most of their living, if everyone lived in their own house, they would still want to drive everywhere as things would be a lot more spread out and farther away.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on May 03, 2016, 07:21:30 PM
Sounds like a great idea in many ways, but any retail stores there would have a heck of a time surviving with so many cheapskates for customers.  The banks would go broke without suckers borrowing.  There wouldn't even be a Goodwill, because there'd be nothing worth donating after the MMM folks squeezed all the last drop of usefulness from everything.  You couldn't even sell mouse traps, because the mice would starve!  The only guy in town making any money from the locals would be selling bicycle tube patches, and maybe toilet paper....

The sketch above of the park on the river sounds nice, but I'd never consider living in an apartment.  I tried living in a small space, but hated it.  I need space for my stuff(tools & materials, and toys) & to work on projects.  I'd have gotten divorced a long time ago if we didn't have more sq feet. 

Sure we all could export our goods & services to non MMM areas, but we still wouldn't support a local economy that would be culturally interesting.  Restaurants, athletes, artists, and entertainers couldn't survive.  Costco & the library would be the local hot spots.  The park would be great on the sunny days, but where would we hang out the rest of the time? 

I'm sure a lot of this could be overcome, but it would take some serious thought & planning for us to learn to live without the "normal" wasteful culture that we are all used to exploiting.

Costco and the library, it's so true!  And it would take a special breed of business to survive in a Mustachian city.  But seriously though, I refuse to believe that Mustachian's need the 'normal' wasteful economy.  A Mustachian city would be different, but much better than a normal city.  The economics would just be different.  For example, how much do athletes, artists, entertainers need to earn to follow their passions when a town is so efficient that the cost of living is practically zero?  More people could just do what they love.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on May 15, 2016, 07:25:00 AM
Arent the Amish communities already pretty mustachian?  Why reinvent the wheel.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: ohana on May 15, 2016, 08:10:29 AM
Strangely, this sounds a bit like my parents' retirement community -- small homes, bike lanes everywhere, grocery and restaurants you can bike or take your golf cart to, central "campus" with library, health center, classrooms, studios, theater.  The golf courses might be outside the mustachian way though!
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Metric Mouse on May 16, 2016, 04:50:39 AM
Arent the Amish communities already pretty mustachian?  Why reinvent the wheel.

I think their views on money and work are a bit different than the tenets of mustachianism. And all that farm land is very inefficient - it would be so far to bike around to get the grocery store to buy your organic produce. :P
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 16, 2016, 10:00:15 AM
Arent the Amish communities already pretty mustachian?  Why reinvent the wheel.

I think their views on money and work are a bit different than the tenets of mustachianism. And all that farm land is very inefficient - it would be so far to bike around to get the grocery store to buy your organic produce. :P
I wouldn't sell organic produce in my mustachian city.... but that's a discussion for a different thread
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on May 16, 2016, 02:24:33 PM
Sounds like a great idea in many ways, but any retail stores there would have a heck of a time surviving with so many cheapskates for customers.  The banks would go broke without suckers borrowing.  There wouldn't even be a Goodwill, because there'd be nothing worth donating after the MMM folks squeezed all the last drop of usefulness from everything.  You couldn't even sell mouse traps, because the mice would starve!  The only guy in town making any money from the locals would be selling bicycle tube patches, and maybe toilet paper....

The sketch above of the park on the river sounds nice, but I'd never consider living in an apartment.  I tried living in a small space, but hated it.  I need space for my stuff(tools & materials, and toys) & to work on projects.  I'd have gotten divorced a long time ago if we didn't have more sq feet. 

Sure we all could export our goods & services to non MMM areas, but we still wouldn't support a local economy that would be culturally interesting.  Restaurants, athletes, artists, and entertainers couldn't survive.  Costco & the library would be the local hot spots.  The park would be great on the sunny days, but where would we hang out the rest of the time? 

I'm sure a lot of this could be overcome, but it would take some serious thought & planning for us to learn to live without the "normal" wasteful culture that we are all used to exploiting.
Half the point of my design was to eliminate the need of cars where people do most of their living, if everyone lived in their own house, they would still want to drive everywhere as things would be a lot more spread out and farther away.

Transportation is a key point for cost savings individually and even more so collectively.  The best way I've seen to handle sprawl would be with a land value tax (LVT) and proper usage fees.  If done right, sprawl would be eliminated by the burden of it's own high costs.

"Estimates are that the typical driver pays only about a tenth of the true cost of his travel; society picks up the rest. This profuse subsidy paid to private automobile and truck transportation further encourages people to locate on sites at far greater distances from where they would choose than if they had to pay the full burden of that travel."

"the range of costs induced by spread-out development, . . [i.e.] houses built in sprawling developments, may cost 40 to 400 percent more to serve than if they were located close to major facilities, were clustered in continuous areas, and in corporate a variety of housing types."

Source: http://www.wealthandwant.com/docs/Batt_Nexus_TERLU.html
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: infogoon on May 24, 2016, 01:20:44 PM
I've thought about this when the yearly city foreclosure auction rolls around; there are parts of Buffalo (and other Rust Belt cities too, I'm sure) that are mostly abandoned; there might be three occupied houses on a street of thirty. It would be fun to buy up the housing stock for a few thousand dollars apiece with a group of likeminded citizens and rebuild the whole neighborhood at once.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Dancin'Dog on May 27, 2016, 07:44:04 PM
I've thought about this when the yearly city foreclosure auction rolls around; there are parts of Buffalo (and other Rust Belt cities too, I'm sure) that are mostly abandoned; there might be three occupied houses on a street of thirty. It would be fun to buy up the housing stock for a few thousand dollars apiece with a group of likeminded citizens and rebuild the whole neighborhood at once.

That's a great idea. 

It reminds me of a local old mill that a Turkish guy bought for peanuts.  I don't know the sq ft, but it's a huge building on 50 acres in downtown Mooresville, NC (about 30 min from Charlotte).  He paid $500K for it and has turned a lot of it into a big design/furniture outlet, a large brick oven pizza shop, and has covered the roof with solar panels to sell $130K of electricity to Duke Power per year.  I don't know what else he has planned for it.
The guy also purchased a couple of other old mills in SC and in GA.

I know he had to spend a lot on the old leaky roof, and the solar panels were costly, but the land alone would be worth more than $500K in the city limits of most any town. 

Perhaps the "Mustachian City" could be made easier by reusing old abandoned neighborhoods or manufacturing plants since the infrastructure is already in place and available at heavily discounted prices.



 
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: yuka on May 28, 2016, 12:40:17 AM
I feel like the ghost town people are mentioning exists, and it's Detroit.

The problem with building a proper town in the current day is that it's wildly disincentivized, meaning that developing a place correctly is much more expensive than doing it the way everyone else is doing it.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on May 28, 2016, 07:57:21 AM
My question is how much does infrastructure really cost?  This article mentions $500 to $750 per person per year: http://newclimateeconomy.net/content/release-urban-sprawl-costs-us-economy-more-1-trillion-year
It just seems like if an inefficient government gets it done at the current price with our own tax money couldn't private citizens and the free market do it better, faster and cheaper with smarter design and innovation?
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: LennStar on May 29, 2016, 01:08:49 PM
My question is how much does infrastructure really cost?  This article mentions $500 to $750 per person per year: http://newclimateeconomy.net/content/release-urban-sprawl-costs-us-economy-more-1-trillion-year
It just seems like if an inefficient government gets it done at the current price with our own tax money couldn't private citizens and the free market do it better, faster and cheaper with smarter design and innovation?
Yes!
Just change the
.gov to
.com
and everything is half price!

I would think it is a bit more pricey for low density. Even the higher 750 is quite low I think. Of course it depends what you count for infrastructure and what you build.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: infogoon on June 06, 2016, 09:07:14 AM
Related:

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/east-side/bangladeshis-transforming-buffalo-one-block-at-a-time-20151212
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on June 16, 2016, 04:30:52 PM
https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucdsclnk?sl=PEACH416004001
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Jeremy E. on June 16, 2016, 04:35:36 PM
You could buy your own community, and only sell houses to mustachians, might make a mustachian city
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: forummm on June 16, 2016, 05:34:54 PM
https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucdsclnk?sl=PEACH416004001

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/own-your-own-town/
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: hoping2retire35 on July 20, 2016, 07:29:16 AM
ok, I have been thinking about this some more. What do we really want?

available outdoor activities(nat'l parks, forests, etc) within reasonable distance.
environment where most of the year can be spent outside (enjoyably)
smaller, more affordable homes
Walkable.
how important to everyone is it to have their own yard. could you live without a yard if it meant a spacious condo? what type of storage does everyone need.
selection of goods and services.
centralized parks
high speed internet.
What else? What are the most important things?

Others have noted about having a more centralized plan around some business district or a park verus having a more mixed use plan. The difference between these two is growth. The centralized plan means growth has to be planned in large amounts at a time, as in a whole new centralized neighborhood adjacent to the first one. Fill that up to 80% then begin to plan the next one(it will be a weird few years if you are the firest resident living a partially developed area with your closest neighbor 2 miles away). Whereas the mixed-use blocks OTOH can be done incrementally, one after the other. If you are living or have a business on the newest block then no biggie, all the customers and stores are just across the street.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Papa Mustache on July 20, 2016, 08:19:14 AM
Housing and transportation are about 50% of the average American's spending.  Mustachians sidestep some of these costs by being smarter about home size and car use despite the fact that suburbia and most cities are designed to prevent this.  Good neighborhoods often mandate larger homes with long commutes and most cities are designed for cars, not people.  Some cities are better than others but for the most part they're homogeneous "Exploding Volcanos of Wastefulness." 

Ditching city life has way too many tradeoffs to be worth it.  But what if we "ditched" the current city model?  Could a group of like minded Mustachians crowdfund their own super town with great amenities, walkability, and low cost of living?  What are your thoughts?

We could call it "Galt's Gulch". ;)

Seriously, I like your idea. If it could happen.

http://www.thevillages.com

We thought that was pretty cool. All spread out for miles but at least the shopping was there, there was entertainment, clubs galore, and cart/bike paths everywhere. We have a friend that lives there.

DW & I would never fit into a place like that. Critters and workshop alone would prevent us from living there.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: YogiKitti on July 20, 2016, 10:39:27 PM
Google agrihood

I would love to live in a place like this. Within walking distance of things that I need, yet surrounded by nature. I am fine living in an apartment if there are community gardens. My current apartment view is a parking lot.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Kaspian on July 20, 2016, 11:57:23 PM
Pauline at "Reach Financial Independence," is actually building her own little Mustachian community.  Yeah, you have to "crowdfund" your own way in, no free ride.  But some of the lots are ony $7K.  Very affordable!  I'd buy one if I was already FIRE.

http://reachfinancialindependence.com/guatemala/ (http://reachfinancialindependence.com/guatemala/)
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: arebelspy on July 21, 2016, 02:58:10 AM
Following!

I'm very interested in the idea of a Mustachian community (to the point that we are probably moving to one for two months next summer to try it out and help plan permanent one(s)).

Pauline at "Reach Financial Independence," is actually building her own little Mustachian community.  Yeah, you have to "crowdfund" your own way in, no free ride.  But some of the lots are ony $7K.  Very affordable!  I'd buy one if I was already FIRE.

http://reachfinancialindependence.com/guatemala/ (http://reachfinancialindependence.com/guatemala/)

EDIT: Looks like she was the lady profiled here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/gal-retires-even-earlier-by-moving-to-guatemala/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/gal-retires-even-earlier-by-moving-to-guatemala/)

The idea sounds interesting.  Looks like this is the website for it: http://sanpedroitza.com/about/
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: pbkmaine on July 21, 2016, 03:43:14 AM
Let's see, which stores would do well? We'd need an Aldi, a bike shop - what else?
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Papa Mustache on July 21, 2016, 08:15:42 AM
used bookstore... farmer's market... old style hardware store for DIY projects and repairs...
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Kaspian on July 21, 2016, 10:39:13 AM

Pauline at "Reach Financial Independence," is actually building her own little Mustachian community.  Yeah, you have to "crowdfund" your own way in, no free ride.  But some of the lots are ony $7K.  Very affordable!  I'd buy one if I was already FIRE.

http://reachfinancialindependence.com/guatemala/ (http://reachfinancialindependence.com/guatemala/)

EDIT: Looks like she was the lady profiled here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/gal-retires-even-earlier-by-moving-to-guatemala/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/gal-retires-even-earlier-by-moving-to-guatemala/)

The idea sounds interesting.  Looks like this is the website for it: http://sanpedroitza.com/about/

Yep, I've been quietly following her blog (well written, frugal, and smart as fuck) and development project for a few years now.  If I was just a few years closer to FIRE, I'd be watching even closer and maybe even pulling the trigger on buying a chunk.  However, a part of me wishes it was a development on the ocean rather than a fresh water lake.  First, because I love the ocean.  Secondly, because alligators in fresh water. :(
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: dougules on July 21, 2016, 11:25:11 AM
If you did manage to make a Mustachian Utopia happen, then it would just succumb to gentrification.  People with money/debt to throw around would see how nice it was then move in and make prices go sky high.   Places built to human scale are cheaper to build than sprawl, but the demand far exceeds the supply.  That means prices for something cheap to build go through the roof. 

Plus building on greenfield land is a lot of the problem right now.  There are a lot of ways that existing sprawl can be retrofitted to be pretty nice.  It would be cheaper and more sustainable than building from scratch.  The problem is that the NIMBYs and the sidewalks-are-too-expensive-but-more-freeway-lanes-are-not people keep it from happening.  If you could find somewhere you could move in and convince/outvote people to do the retrofitting, then you'd be a lot better off then trying to put infrastructure in place out of nothing.  Of course then you'd face the above problem of gentrification. 



Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: hoping2retire35 on July 21, 2016, 11:39:13 AM
If you did manage to make a Mustachian Utopia happen, then it would just succumb to gentrification.  People with money/debt to throw around would see how nice it was then move in and make prices go sky high.   Places built to human scale are cheaper to build than sprawl, but the demand far exceeds the supply.  That means prices for something cheap to build go through the roof. 

Plus building on greenfield land is a lot of the problem right now.  There are a lot of ways that existing sprawl can be retrofitted to be pretty nice.  It would be cheaper and more sustainable than building from scratch.  The problem is that the NIMBYs and the sidewalks-are-too-expensive-but-more-freeway-lanes-are-not people keep it from happening.  If you could find somewhere you could move in and convince/outvote people to do the retrofitting, then you'd be a lot better off then trying to put infrastructure in place out of nothing.  Of course then you'd face the above problem of gentrification.
SEE ABOVE-ghosttownish

edit; bolded quote
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: arebelspy on July 21, 2016, 05:50:23 PM

Pauline at "Reach Financial Independence," is actually building her own little Mustachian community.  Yeah, you have to "crowdfund" your own way in, no free ride.  But some of the lots are ony $7K.  Very affordable!  I'd buy one if I was already FIRE.

http://reachfinancialindependence.com/guatemala/ (http://reachfinancialindependence.com/guatemala/)

EDIT: Looks like she was the lady profiled here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/gal-retires-even-earlier-by-moving-to-guatemala/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/gal-retires-even-earlier-by-moving-to-guatemala/)

The idea sounds interesting.  Looks like this is the website for it: http://sanpedroitza.com/about/

Yep, I've been quietly following her blog (well written, frugal, and smart as fuck) and development project for a few years now.  If I was just a few years closer to FIRE, I'd be watching even closer and maybe even pulling the trigger on buying a chunk.  However, a part of me wishes it was a development on the ocean rather than a fresh water lake.  First, because I love the ocean.  Secondly, because alligators in fresh water. :(

Some of the lots are 7k, but it looks like the best ones are taken.. and many of the more decent ones are 23k-ish.

And how much will everything else cost to build?  That's just the raw land.  Your all-in cost will be much more than that (at least 2-4x that).  So maybe 50-100k?  (Obviously less the more you DIY/are handy, but even materials and transport costs add up.)

It's interesting, but I don't know that it's optimal.

But convince me otherwise, cause I'd like to buy into something like this, I'm just not convinced (yet?) hers is the one. :)
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Papa Mustache on July 22, 2016, 09:01:39 AM
But who wants to live in Guatemala?

http://reachfinancialindependence.com/what-i-hate-about-guatemala/

I'd be more inclined to live in one of those sleepy little Italian villages all the youth are moving away from. Italy has it's problems too but I never felt at risk for my life there except dying by Fiat. Crazy drivers! (me too)
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Kaspian on July 22, 2016, 10:08:52 AM

It's interesting, but I don't know that it's optimal.

But convince me otherwise, cause I'd like to buy into something like this, I'm just not convinced (yet?) hers is the one. :)

I can't, dude.  I'm still far enough (6 years?) away from FIRE that I shouldn't even be looking at anything like that too seriously.  Like you, I'd also need to know carrying costs of things--like annual taxes, fees, water delivery, is it a septic system/outhouse, and yes--building costs.  Given a few more years (and a few more structures) I'm pretty sure she'll be on good terms with the best and most efficient local contractors.  But I like that it's a Mustachian idea--she hopes to have multiple gardens where people can share small crops and a few chickens while being eco-conscious (but not commune-hippy overboard).  Also, I guess (?), even for $7K I'd want to actually see it so as not to get stuck with an albatross.  A small lot might be ideal if biking to the beach was only 30 seconds or something.  A stay in a room at the AirBNB she runs on the property is only $38/night.  So, that's something I'm filing away  for possible future investigation.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: dougules on July 22, 2016, 10:30:15 AM
But who wants to live in Guatemala?

http://reachfinancialindependence.com/what-i-hate-about-guatemala/

I'd be more inclined to live in one of those sleepy little Italian villages all the youth are moving away from. Italy has it's problems too but I never felt at risk for my life there except dying by Fiat. Crazy drivers! (me too)

It sounds like she still likes Guatemala despite the problems it has.  And you're right that the guy with a taxi is generally more dangerous than the guy with a gun. 
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: arebelspy on July 22, 2016, 04:12:39 PM
I can't, dude.

Darn.  :)

Well keep me in the loop if you do investigate more!  Maybe moving there would speed up your FIRE time.  ;)
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on October 11, 2017, 05:37:46 AM
I know this thread died over a year ago but I still can't stop thinking about this topic.

I live in Round Rock, Texas.  Is there anyone in the Austin area that would be interested in brainstorming something like the Llano Exit Strategy - https://www.outsideonline.com/2054171/true-story-llano-tiny-home-exit-strategy
If done right you could bring the community and convenience of the city but have the simplicity and efficiency of a Mustachian car-less super utopia and near instant financial independence.

700 sq ft self sufficient, modular and expandable homes for under $25k:
https://fellowsblog.ted.com/how-to-build-your-own-starter-house-in-just-5-steps-for-25-000-861821051131

Large unrestricted acreage lots near cities with some potential "common area" structures already built:
https://www.austintexasresidence.com/homes/5317-Hupedo-Ranch-Rd/Spicewood/TX/78669/72766713/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/00-F-M-Rd-1431-Leander-TX-78641/2092574642_zpid/?fullpage=true
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10401-Wildwood-Hills-Ln-Austin-TX-78737/28609778_zpid/?fullpage=true

Let me know if you're interested.  I'd love to have some help crunching numbers and bringing my idealism more inline with reality.

Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: arebelspy on October 11, 2017, 08:39:56 AM
Let me know if you're interested.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/10osILvZ4ez7ws/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: GuitarStv on October 11, 2017, 09:17:30 AM
Let's see, which stores would do well? We'd need an Aldi, a bike shop - what else?

Bikes are very easy to fix on your own if you've got a little time and interest . . . and it's pretty close to impossible to match let alone beat the online prices at a brick and mortar store.  No freaking way would a bike shop survive in MMM city.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: arebelspy on October 11, 2017, 09:21:04 AM
Let's see, which stores would do well? We'd need an Aldi, a bike shop - what else?

Bikes are very easy to fix on your own if you've got a little time and interest . . . and it's pretty close to impossible to match let alone beat the online prices at a brick and mortar store.  No freaking way would a bike shop survive in MMM city.

A cosharing workspace with tools and such that had bike repair stuff (along with other tools for lending) would be good.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: bacchi on October 11, 2017, 09:39:51 AM
Seaside, FL is a New Urbanist community worth a study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaside,_Florida. With no need for fancy pants architects and 4000 square foot, which Seaside has, the prices should be lower. Of course, even an empty lot is almost a million.

I'd love to do something like this. The problem being, probably for most of us, is that I can't spend $250k to live in a crowdfunded MC and then have it go belly up. I couldn't recover from that (=back to work!). This is inherently the problem with co-housing, too -- if you buy in, it's tough to get out.

Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: SecondBreakfast on October 11, 2017, 09:40:17 AM
I don't think a city is something you can plan - any "planned" cities I've seen have been pretty horrible. You can probably tweak the by-laws to incentivise a certain style of development, but people will always look for creative way around your rules to follow their own incentives. And to be honest I don't see a lot of wealthy mustachians swallowing the style! High-density, mixed use walkable neighborhoods are attractive and efficient but demand that people be willing to share a lot of space, when the more common desire I've seen from FIRE folks is to own something spacious and personal (a small farm, some woodland etc.). I think you'd be in danger of people liking the idea of the dense, walkable town as their local centre, but not enough to live there. They'd look a couple of miles out for a nice patch of quieter land they could commute from. Ironically, I think you'd start off trying to build something new and efficient and end up with a shopping mall and a suburb.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: GuitarStv on October 11, 2017, 09:46:37 AM
Let's see, which stores would do well? We'd need an Aldi, a bike shop - what else?

Bikes are very easy to fix on your own if you've got a little time and interest . . . and it's pretty close to impossible to match let alone beat the online prices at a brick and mortar store.  No freaking way would a bike shop survive in MMM city.

A cosharing workspace with tools and such that had bike repair stuff (along with other tools for lending) would be good.

I agree comrade, we should share together with respect for the tools for the betterment of the proletariat.  My concern is that this is a tragedy of the commons waiting to happen.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: bacchi on October 11, 2017, 09:53:22 AM
I don't think a city is something you can plan - any "planned" cities I've seen have been pretty horrible. You can probably tweak the by-laws to incentivise a certain style of development, but people will always look for creative way around your rules to follow their own incentives. And to be honest I don't see a lot of wealthy mustachians swallowing the style! High-density, mixed use walkable neighborhoods are attractive and efficient but demand that people be willing to share a lot of space, when the more common desire I've seen from FIRE folks is to own something spacious and personal (a small farm, some woodland etc.). I think you'd be in danger of people liking the idea of the dense, walkable town as their local centre, but not enough to live there. They'd look a couple of miles out for a nice patch of quieter land they could commute from. Ironically, I think you'd start off trying to build something new and efficient and end up with a shopping mall and a suburb.

This is a problem with all cities. They're desirable enough to live near, for jobs and shopping and entertainment, but not desirable enough (for some) to live in and pay the taxes. This leads to eminent domain annexation to grow the city. In essence, the cities are trying to put the "moochers" on the tax rolls.

Modified versions of Seaside (New Urbanist design) do work, though they're more car-centric than Seaside. Watercolor, FL is an example and it sits next to Seaside. Celebration, FL is another example. Those are probably too sterile for the FIRE folks but the zoning and deed restrictions can be adjusted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/travel/escapes/seaside-at-25-troubles-in-paradise.html



Eta: I meant that cities annex their suburbs not take them over through eminent domain.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: SecondBreakfast on October 11, 2017, 10:08:08 AM
This is a problem with all cities. They're desirable enough to live near, for jobs and shopping and entertainment, but not desirable enough (for some) to live in and pay the taxes. This leads to eminent domain to grow the city. In essence, the cities are trying to put the "moochers" on the tax rolls.

This is part of why I think New Urbanism will ultimately fail as bad as Old Urbanism. The plan is still to build A Thing and keep it that way. The old way enforced that building had to be low and roads wide. The new way enforces that buildings can be slightly higher and roads slightly narrower. Both are attempting to maintain a certain style, feel, and type of person. But cities change. The poor area gentrifies, the rich one degrades, people move around, needs change. Until cities accept that things change over time and set the rules to work with it and allow it to happen smoothly then cities will stagnate and get trapped in endless cycles of revenue-seeking expansion.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: Prairie Stash on October 11, 2017, 10:24:14 AM
Problems include:
Pitiful Craigslist, MMM are the worst about selling great items for cheap.
Lack of side hustles doing easy jobs for lazy neighbours
Very low Gleaning potential, I get a lot of fruit from current neighbours
No second hand store since everything would be maintained forever or used till it no longer has any residual value

I lack all of you, its just that you all are too self sufficient. Maybe in retirement it would work, by then I won't care about all the side hustles.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: bacchi on October 11, 2017, 10:26:23 AM
This is a problem with all cities. They're desirable enough to live near, for jobs and shopping and entertainment, but not desirable enough (for some) to live in and pay the taxes. This leads to eminent domain to grow the city. In essence, the cities are trying to put the "moochers" on the tax rolls.

This is part of why I think New Urbanism will ultimately fail as bad as Old Urbanism. The plan is still to build A Thing and keep it that way. The old way enforced that building had to be low and roads wide. The new way enforces that buildings can be slightly higher and roads slightly narrower. Both are attempting to maintain a certain style, feel, and type of person. But cities change. The poor area gentrifies, the rich one degrades, people move around, needs change. Until cities accept that things change over time and set the rules to work with it and allow it to happen smoothly then cities will stagnate and get trapped in endless cycles of revenue-seeking expansion.

Perhaps. Do you have any ideas on how to make rules that allow change to happen smoothly? Any books to recommend?

Christopher Alexander in A Pattern Language suggests having "fingers" of rural land throughout an urban area, so that anyone isn't more than 30 minutes by bike from agriculture (his "city country fingers"). This would allow for those inclined to live out in the country with some land.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: GuitarStv on October 11, 2017, 11:05:10 AM
This moustachian community sounds like it's being designed to be low density.

Several high density buildings surrounded by greenspace would radically limit travel time for most things, be more environmentally friendly, and provide less space for people to hoard and more reason for people to partake in shared stuff (tool libraries, communal bike shops, etc.).  It's totally possible (although slightly more expensive up front) to build quiet, energy efficient mass housing.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on October 11, 2017, 12:18:28 PM
I hate to be the skeptic, but I doubt this would work. There are plenty of pleasant communities to live in that are high density. They are also quite expensive, because lots of people want to live there. There's nothing at all unique about Mustachians wanting to have walkable/bikeable neighborhoods.

Likely result? Gun to my head, I'd say it'd either become overrun with yuppies who bid up prices to crazy levels. Either that or you need some sort of handicap that makes it utterly unappealing, like banning cars entirely, or having no transportation connection to other major cities, or underfunding all sorts of public services (I imagine the least being the most likely to happen).


Personally I wouldn't mind living in a city, but I've looked into cities across the nation and the public schools are all ranked considerably worse than public schools in the higher income suburbs around said schools. I think I found one school district in Lincoln, NE that looked appealing. But then you're living in Nebraska.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: SecondBreakfast on October 11, 2017, 04:36:09 PM
Perhaps. Do you have any ideas on how to make rules that allow change to happen smoothly? Any books to recommend?

Christopher Alexander in A Pattern Language suggests having "fingers" of rural land throughout an urban area, so that anyone isn't more than 30 minutes by bike from agriculture (his "city country fingers"). This would allow for those inclined to live out in the country with some land.

I've not read as much on the subject as I'd like to but a real good (and pretty old now) book is The Life and Death of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs. Kind of depressing though since all the mistakes she highlights that waste money (and ruin lives too) just keep being repeated over and over again.

I'm unconvinced by any argument that blends urban and rural land. It's been tried before and it leads to deadzones, crime, blight etc. A city is a city. I don't think the trick is to blend open space in (tried by utopian architects in the early and mid 20th century) or to make it more like the country (tried by low-density postwar American cities like L.A), but to let it do the things a city is good at - high density, mixed use activity. Note that this doesn't forbid parks or greenspace in a city, they just have to work with the urban environment rather than be something completely different in the middle of it.
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on October 13, 2017, 02:55:15 PM
Quote
I don't think a city is something you can plan - any "planned" cities I've seen have been pretty horrible. You can probably tweak the by-laws to incentivise a certain style of development, but people will always look for creative way around your rules to follow their own incentives. And to be honest I don't see a lot of wealthy mustachians swallowing the style! High-density, mixed use walkable neighborhoods are attractive and efficient but demand that people be willing to share a lot of space, when the more common desire I've seen from FIRE folks is to own something spacious and personal (a small farm, some woodland etc.). I think you'd be in danger of people liking the idea of the dense, walkable town as their local centre, but not enough to live there. They'd look a couple of miles out for a nice patch of quieter land they could commute from. Ironically, I think you'd start off trying to build something new and efficient and end up with a shopping mall and a suburb.

I agree, city "planning" is horrible.  Applying top down, one size fits all strategies never works.  Cities are a living, breathing organism and should be allowed to grow naturally.  Any form of organization or planning should come from the bottom up.  That's why capitalism works so well.  It's democratic and non-coercive.

Cities should have the minimum amount of underlying rules to function and then be allowed to grow organically from there.  My interest would be in establishing an underlying framework (possibly blockchain based) for incentivizing and streamlining smart growth and efficient land use and removing monopolies, special privilege and as much top down regulation as possible from the equation. More specifically I'd like to use something similar to Geolibertarian land policies (but fully market based and distributed as a citizen's dividend rather than a tax) and liquid democracy to allow the community to evolve as freely and efficiently as possible with direct governance by the users.

A few potential tools might be:
https://aragon.one/
http://democracy.earth/
https://www.bancor.network/
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: caseywoolley on October 13, 2017, 03:08:15 PM
Quote
A cosharing workspace with tools and such that had bike repair stuff (along with other tools for lending) would be good.

I was thinking the same thing.  I envision having something like a "library" rental storage but for tools or any other infrequently used items.  Basically Uber for the stuff that clutters up homes.  You could even offer Uber like convenience if the "library" employed these little guys for delivery of smaller items: https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/18/postmates-and-doordash-are-testing-delivery-by-robot-with-starship-technologies/
Title: Re: A Crowdfunded Mustachian City
Post by: LennStar on October 14, 2017, 07:07:40 AM
I agree, city "planning" is horrible.  Applying top down, one size fits all strategies never works.
What you describe is not city planning. Not since about 50 years. Or at least should not and mostly isn't.

Quote
That's why capitalism works so well.
Not in city planning. Because if capitalism does it you end up without sewerage (sometimes even in the rental houses the capitalists build), parks, doctors or anything else that does not make the highest profit.
You can see countless examples of that in the "developing countries".