The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: zoochadookdook on April 02, 2019, 08:25:44 AM
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edit: Update 2
We went to our 3rd counsoling last night and it was the hardest one so far. We talked about the past, when I had cheated how it made her feel (not chosen-like i literally chose another girl over her) and when we had seperated a few years later and how she had felt uncommited to/unwanted until I came back. We've established a cycle of "I don't know what I want until it's gone" on those 2 occasions and her having insecurities from not being chosen. We still both believe our point is in the right. She believes if she opens up and initiates sex it will just be to try to get me to getting to engagement. I feel like we need to establish this before engagement. We're both so entrenched in our feelings that it's still not budging anywhich way. We talked about expectations on the vacation and still aren't sure how to take it. She mentioned "why's it always me that gets my heart broken" and that has been true this relationship. I'm trying to rationalize engagement at least to see if we can bring it back-but she just can't get to intamcy without it. There's just too much of a mental block from our past and I respect her for it. It doesn't do any good questioning why or how she feels but rather understanding this is how it has to be for her. HOWEVER- this morning at work she did text me that she had a sassy dream involving us last night which she didn't expect at all based on how our conversations have gone so.....Idk, maybe we can explore that a bit more? It's a step in the right direction out of nowhere.
edit: Update:
I want to clarify a few things. She has never held my earlier infedelity directly against me. For the most part, once we got back together it was "for good". Since that point she says she's never imagined anything aside from a future with me. That being said, she also mentioned the other day that she wants to be engaged to feel 100% committed to. I'm not against marriage and she's got a million good qualities-she's great with kids (worked in childcare the last xx years), she makes me happy in the sense of just being around, she's kind, educated, optomistic etc. I don't really know why my mind can't wrap itself around marriage. I'm telling myself it's just that I want intamcy back and establish but I also haven't thought about children that much. I think I would like them but I always imagined I'd be more established/have more finances and a career ironed out prior. I'm 26 (27 in may) for anyone who's been wondering about the age. She's 25-26 next january. She's asked for me to tell her if i'm not proposing on the cruise we take in 2 weeks just so she won't be nervous/get all wound up to be disappointed and I think that's fair. Emotionally we share a connection; a pretty good one. When we're together I can imagine that forever. It's not that dark/unhappy of a relationship at all. I'm just having trouble sorting my feelings out.
Hey all so facts
M26. f25. Have been together 7 years.
Early on I cheated, shitbag young kid style. Prior we were very sexually active. Since then-several months in-we haven't had sexual relations.
Lately she's been bringing up engagement and really pushing for it (understandable as it has been 7.5 years).
We went to a consoler twice (again this thursday) and really started opening up afterwards. I love her, she loves and wants to spend the rest of her me-BUT when we started talking about sex and such she mentioned she just never has the desire ever. No drive. No feelings in that department. She has mentioned she's willing to try at least if we get engaged as she pictures us having a regular sex life (there's a cruise we had planned mid April for 11 days) but has no promise she can make herself feel like that at all. She plans on stopping her BC after the cruise as that's really the only hormonal block she can think of. That puts the ball in my court. She was crying and just said she couldn't promise it as it's something she can't feel/she thinks we know eachother well enough and can make anything work by this point. She doesn't even expect to get married for a long time (year+), but she wants the feeling of commitment and being chosen before she can try (her words). I have made it clear I don't believe it would be beneficial to get married if we can't at least figure out some sort of situation. She thinks it could be her bc or just how long it's been. Obviously she said the earlier infidelity played a role in how she viewed sex and that she's always thought we'd have forever together since then/to let herself emotionally try in that department and open up she'd like to be engaged to try at least. I think after this amount of time it is fair that engagement is on the table. She has said that she wants to be married and just live the rest of our life out; and she gets hurt because every time we talk I have the worst case what if scenarios in mind. It's true though; neither of us knows what will happen in the future. She could go through a midlife crisis and hit the lotto/head out. I could get hit crossing the street and not be able to work for a living.
Personally I haven't thought a lot about being married or kids (she wants at least one) and trying to process the time management and implications all of these bring has been stressing me out. I love her and could see a life with her but I need that emotional desire and want to feel wanted. Still not sure what my overall life goals are but i'm working on defining those and understanding where my own happiness comes from while still remaining practical (keeping my 8-5 etc).
I'm posting here to try to get some perspectives. When did you know you wanted to or didn't want to marry someone? When did you decide you wanted or didn't want kids? Is it possible for someone to fluctuate in between asexual and average sexuality? Anyone been in a similar relationship or considering marriage? Thanks
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There are people who are truly asexual. (Some of them, in fact, post on these forums.) Whether or not a person wants sex is not, in and of itself, a problem. The problem comes when there is an imbalance in sexual desire between partners. That tends to be incredibly frustrating to the person wanting more sex, and leads to increasing issues in the relationship over time.
Are you willing to be celibate the rest of your life, except for the purpose of creating children? Because I think that’s what you are looking at. If yes, then by all means go ahead. If no, DO NOT get married.
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She's interested in marriage, you're not.
You're interested in sex, she's not.
To be blunt, it doesn't sound like your wants/needs are compatible for a long-term relationship.
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She's interested in marriage, you're not.
You're interested in sex, she's not.
To be blunt, it doesn't sound like your wants/needs are compatible for a long-term relationship.
This is a much more concise version of what I was going to say.
The fact that you're here stating such large life questions shows that you have serious reservations. Your partner is trying to bully you into making a commitment before she will even try to make the relationship something you'd want. Sounds like a 100% no go.
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Yes, there are some people who are asexual. Is your girlfriend an asexual person? Has she ever felt sexual desire, or did it just end at some point? The answer could be very important. People who are truly asexual, not just traumatized or otherwise temporarily uninterested, cannot be expected to change. I have a close friend who is very sexual. He married a woman I believe is asexual, before any of us knew what that was or what it meant. His marriage has held up, but partially because he occasionally has affairs (not with me) in order to feel validated. Even though his wife is willing to have sex with him, her lack of desire makes him feel, well, undesired. Over the long term, most people have a high need for validation and feeling desired.
In the case of my friend, I believe even with the deception involved, it has been the best solution for them. If you marry an asexual person, you could be setting yourself up for this kind of situation. My friend has accepted this, and his wife probably is unaware of his solution.
Sex is a powerful force and a pretty basic need. One that is best fulfilled within a marriage if the people are married. You and your girlfriend would both be served best if she can determine whether sexual desire is something she naturally feels, or not. If not, that could be a big problem for you two in the context of a committed relationship, let alone a marriage.
If you're not familiar with asexuality, please start with a Google search. Know what you might be dealing with. Get your girlfriend to define who she is. Please, whatever you do, don't accept "maybe I'll change later" as a rationale for getting married or even continuing the relationship, if having a sexual bond with your partner is important to you. If you two break up, she can seek out other asexuals. No one who desires sex should have to go through a life where their partner doesn't want them sexually.
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I guess I'm hesitant to just look at in black and white. I know she loves me and is committed to me. We have a lot of memories and I have a hard time seeing myself without her/vice versa. Could we break up and be ok? Probably, it'd be messy and suck for a while as we've been living together most of our adult lives, but it could happen. On the other hand, I'm not opposed to trying to get to the want of marriage and if engagement is what she needs to open up I'm seriously contemplating it. I've always had a hard time commiting/facing future choices and adversity without hyper analyzing.
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Yes, there are some people who are asexual. Is your girlfriend an asexual person? Has she ever felt sexual desire, or did it just end at some point? The answer could be very important. People who are truly asexual, not just traumatized or otherwise temporarily uninterested, cannot be expected to change. I have a close friend who is very sexual. He married a woman I believe is asexual, before any of us knew what that was or what it meant. His marriage has held up, but partially because he occasionally has affairs (not with me) in order to feel validated. Even though his wife is willing to have sex with him, her lack of desire makes him feel, well, undesired. Over the long term, most people have a high need for validation and feeling desired.
In the case of my friend, I believe even with the deception involved, it has been the best solution for them. If you marry an asexual person, you could be setting yourself up for this kind of situation. My friend has accepted this, and his wife probably is unaware of his solution.
Sex is a powerful force and a pretty basic need. One that is best fulfilled within a marriage if the people are married. You and your girlfriend would both be served best if she can determine whether sexual desire is something she naturally feels, or not. If not, that could be a big problem for you two in the context of a committed relationship, let alone a marriage.
If you're not familiar with asexuality, please start with a Google search. Know what you might be dealing with. Get your girlfriend to define who she is. Please, whatever you do, don't accept "maybe I'll change later" as a rationale for getting married or even continuing the relationship, if having a sexual bond with your partner is important to you. If you two break up, she can seek out other asexuals. No one who desires sex should have to go through a life where their partner doesn't want them sexually.
And on the other tack, if she lost her desire after the infidelity, then that's something that needs to be dealt with. Maybe she wants the commitment because on some level she still doesn't trust you? Or maybe there are other concerns (I assume you've taken a battery of STD tests since this occurred)? It is possible that the long dry spell has dampened her desire, but that doesn't happen in a vacuum. You both need to understand the source of her "block" if it is that, and whether or not it stands a good chance of healing in a way that would let you move forward together.
I also wonder about your side of this. You've been going without sexual relations for years now, without really questioning it? I'm sure at first you were understanding because guilt, but at some point you must have gotten frustrated? Any idea why you've been holding on for all this time, when your needs aren't being met? It would be more understandable if you were emotionally committed to her, but it sounds like you're still not sure, so there must be other reasons? Is she your first serious girlfriend, and perhaps you just can't imagine the alternative?
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Yes, there are some people who are asexual. Is your girlfriend an asexual person? Has she ever felt sexual desire, or did it just end at some point? The answer could be very important. People who are truly asexual, not just traumatized or otherwise temporarily uninterested, cannot be expected to change. I have a close friend who is very sexual. He married a woman I believe is asexual, before any of us knew what that was or what it meant. His marriage has held up, but partially because he occasionally has affairs (not with me) in order to feel validated. Even though his wife is willing to have sex with him, her lack of desire makes him feel, well, undesired. Over the long term, most people have a high need for validation and feeling desired.
In the case of my friend, I believe even with the deception involved, it has been the best solution for them. If you marry an asexual person, you could be setting yourself up for this kind of situation. My friend has accepted this, and his wife probably is unaware of his solution.
Sex is a powerful force and a pretty basic need. One that is best fulfilled within a marriage if the people are married. You and your girlfriend would both be served best if she can determine whether sexual desire is something she naturally feels, or not. If not, that could be a big problem for you two in the context of a committed relationship, let alone a marriage.
If you're not familiar with asexuality, please start with a Google search. Know what you might be dealing with. Get your girlfriend to define who she is. Please, whatever you do, don't accept "maybe I'll change later" as a rationale for getting married or even continuing the relationship, if having a sexual bond with your partner is important to you. If you two break up, she can seek out other asexuals. No one who desires sex should have to go through a life where their partner doesn't want them sexually.
Prior to the infedelity she did have a sex drive. So it's possible she needs the validation of being chosen to open back up (engagement) however, she has said she has no idea if she can but she's willing to try (stopping bc and such next month). She believes in her mind everything is perfect and mairraige is for a better and worse ordeal, and through talking has mentioned it makes her feel like crap because she hasn't been there in that way. I know she loves me and wants the future. I want it too but I have selfesh desires as well; like we have this conversation a lot and in her mind all we can do is try and think positive. I naturally revert to the worst case scenario (if she can't get back to that sort of relationship then I either take her or leave her) which (understandably) hurts her feelings and makes her feel inadaquet. It's a situation I'd never thought I'd be in.
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[/quote]And on the other tack, if she lost her desire after the infidelity, then that's something that needs to be dealt with. Maybe she wants the commitment because on some level she still doesn't trust you? Or maybe there are other concerns (I assume you've taken a battery of STD tests since this occurred)? It is possible that the long dry spell has dampened her desire, but that doesn't happen in a vacuum. You both need to understand the source of her "block" if it is that, and whether or not it stands a good chance of healing in a way that would let you move forward together.
I also wonder about your side of this. You've been going without sexual relations for years now, without really questioning it? I'm sure at first you were understanding because guilt, but at some point you must have gotten frustrated? Any idea why you've been holding on for all this time, when your needs aren't being met? It would be more understandable if you were emotionally committed to her, but it sounds like you're still not sure, so there must be other reasons? Is she your first serious girlfriend, and perhaps you just can't imagine the alternative?
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So counseling was my idea. And she has gone. She's forgiven me and we even talk about it like a case study now, but it did change her perspective on sex. For years I just took it as a healing process-like one day we'll get back to it and eventually just ignored it. When you get shot down enough it isn't really something you want to experience repeatedly but I figured I did hurt her and this is just how our changed relationship is. I am emotionally commited to her, as a provider (she works and makes her car payment/half the dogs vet bills and the trash bill ) and as a person. She doesn't care if i want to play video games and is perfectly content to spend the weekend in binging netflix. She and I are pretty compatible, we never really fight or argue and we have a billion inside (stupid) jokes. We have a life together and that's been enough to focus on. I guess I just got lost in that and forgot things like mairraige exist. I'm trying to understand if she can change or if this is her forever and if i'm ok with that. I understand why she wants to be married and why she feels the ways she feels, but I understand how my body and mind feel as well and they're telling me that eventually this is going to wear me down. I would never cheat on her again but I never want to feel like i'm participating in something with the hope something will change (even if it's subconciously).
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Just a caveat - when you say she is going to stop the BC, I assume you are talking about the pill or equivalent? Because yes, the hormones can affect libido. But the 2 of you need to make sure you have alternative birth control methods in place before you start doing anything. Because do you really want to set yourselves up for a situation where you feel you "have" to get married because she is pregnant?
And actually why is she talking about stopping BC? Because if you 2 are not ever having sex, she doesn't need anything for birth control. If she is taking BC for other health reasons, then stopping it means she needs to have a major talk with her doctor about health repercussions. Unless you just saying "stopping her BC" is a vague way of saying that it really means getting her hormone based IUD out. In which case you two still need to think about other BC methods.
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This sounds like a relationship that isn't working for either of you all that well, and progressing it into marriage doesn't seem likely to help. Giving you an ultimatum in that she won't try to have sex unless you propose, is unhealthy, as is holding a past infidelity against you forever. From what you posted, I can't really see why you are still together, unless you are both just too scared to end it and change your lives together, or you still feel guilty about your past actions. Obviously no one here knows your relationship better than you do, but your posts raise serious questions in my mind.
My experience with a past relationship, was that we tried to repair it after infidelity, but it took a long time to regain trust, and I think we tried to force something that wasn't working out. We lived together and breaking up was complicated, and we had never had other serious relationships (got together at 18, lasted until 24), but more importantly we weren't really in love. After finally breaking up, I fell in love with someone else, and honestly am so glad that I was able to leave and find a person and relationship that meets my needs and truly makes me happy. I wouldn't have known what I was missing until I left that relationship and focused on myself. I can see myself marrying my current partner, because I can envision our lives together and that's what I want, and we are on the same page. I could never see that with my ex, and marrying him would have been a huge mistake.
If you have serious doubts, do not propose. You have both likely grown a lot over your time together, and are not necessarily good matches for each other. I know breaking up is scary and hard, but unless you feel like you can spend the rest of your life with her the way things are now, you will likely always feel like you are missing something, and it will breed resentment and lead to unhappiness for both of you. Good luck with the decision.
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IME, marriage does not fix any problems and in fact brings on a lot more problems. Also, what are your financial situations like? Do you have significantly more savings than her? Because if you do, if you get divorced, she gets half.
Also, going off birth control will make it much easier for an "oops baby" to happen. What will you do if you end up getting her pregnant? Maybe she feels that adding a baby to the equation will tip you over toward getting married.
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Short answer: don't do it.
Longer answer: have her get off the BC, and see if that makes a difference. Wait a while after the BC to make sure any changes are durable. But my guess is that's not really going to change much.
I'm speaking as a woman here.
If you are not having sex now, and things don't remarkably improve after the BC is out of the picture, it will only get worse. Once you are married, there will be less incentive for her to try. (Unless she wants children, in which case she will engage in sex for reproductive purposes but then that's gonna be it.)
Your cheating is far in the past. Far enough that at this point it's not relevant to why you're not having sex anymore.
Her saying she wants the "feeling of commitment" before she can try is manipulative. Sorry. It is.
My husband was in a marriage that sounds very much like the relationship you're in (sans the cheating at the beginning). He was trapped in a relationship that felt more like roommates than lovers. He has told me how much it ate at him over time. The sex, but also the lack of feeling wanted.
I hope this doesn't sound blunt. Or rather, I know it's blunt, but I hope it comes across in the way I'm intending it to.
Let the relationship go. Set both of you free, to find people who are better suited for you.
Blame aside, you two are not compatible sexually. And that matters. A lot. The relationship you are describing is not enough to build an entire lifetime commitment on.
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I'm going to have to just state emphatically so please understand this is not meant as being mean or hating on your girlfriend...
No. Do not get married. Do not assume things will work out in the end. Do not do this. You will be miserable and likely end up having sex at some point as a chore for her, and she will have a kid or two and you will end up divorced in another few years because there is a HUGE FUCKING MESS THAT THE TWO OF YOU HAVE JUST IGNORED FOR YEARS.
You are in a sexless relationship, and you never worked out the why. She either is punishing you for your infidelity (and this doesn't have to be intentional) or she is so hurt/betrayed still when she thinks about you as a lover/partner that she is incapable of seeing you as such.
Sure, some folks likely could work this out eventually with intensive counseling and stuff, but you both haven't done so and you're just thinking about drifting into marriage because that might fix you both and isn't that what everyone does anyway? Marriage will make things worse. So sooooo much worse. It doesn't fix relationship problems. Marriage is not a big fancy bow that makes everything better.
I know this is likely not what you want to hear, but honestly you need to break up. You should have done so years ago. You may care about her and she about you but mostly you are both comfortable and dealing with sunk cost fallacy. Your mentioning the length of the relationship several times is telling, you have a relationship but it is not a good one. She is just advancing her goals now, she's mid twenties so time to get married and have a kid - not I love you, I need you, I want to be married to you because.... it is some items checked on a shopping list for her at this point. You are a means to an end, and she is being extremely emotionally immature to use you like this (knowingly or not).
She's dropped an ultimatum on you with a horrible lose/lose proposition. She dangles the "I might want to have sex again" if you proposed. "I might love you like a partner/lover if we got married and had a kid" No. Just no. This is horrible. You both needed to work out the having sex or not part waaaaay before marriage came into the picture, so now it's just that she's got a lovely temptation for you to jump at. And when you do? Maybe things seem okay for a year, until the baby comes. And then she will shut you right back out in the cold, and make sure to tell you that things have changed for her again and she's not interested in sex any more and that subject is CLOSED. She gets everything she wants, and you need to shut up because you cheated... not saying that's GOING to happen, but if it doesn't you'd be one of the very few that had a great breakthrough in maturity and emotional connection that neither one of you have demonstrated yet. And adding a marriage and baby into the mix is not going to make things like that easier to work out. But now instead of making a clean break before marrying and babies, you are going to feel even more guilt-ridden and alone and responsible because you have a wife (that you cheated on long ago) and a child that you have to be responsible for. And you leaving would be seen as selfish and mean and just all your fault.
And let's not forget the guilt and blame thing happening here either. You cheated on her. But you stayed together. This should have been a non-issue after you both worked through that. But she has left you feeling guilty and shamed and refused to have sex with you for years now. If she loved and forgave you. That would NOT be the theme song of your relationship. But it's still there, you're still acting guilty and responsible for hurting her, and she has not forgiven you because it was a way to keep you but at arm's length and likely has been a soft, barely-heard melody that has been playing in the background this entire time. Any time she gets upset, the volume of that music just gets loud enough to remind you to grovel, you submit, you give her whatever she wants... because you are a dirty rotten cheater and you OWE her. Even if you don't get actual intimacy or an emotionally mature partner out of it. You are the bad guy forever and ever, amen. So shut up and marry her now, right? She's MADE a tentative offer that she might have sex with you if you marry her? What a great bargain!
You never pushed for a normal-ish sex life because maybe she was asexual? Maybe because every time it was discussed somehow the tainted melody of the past sort of got a bit louder? That's manipulative and shaming. Again, she has not forgiven you if you lived years like this. She can speak the words, but the actual forgiveness is absent.
If she is asexual - that's FINE. That is her body, her feelings and she is absolutely 100% free to be asexual. But she does not get to tell her partner that she's decided she is no longer having sex, and they have zero choice in the matter. You should have worked this out, and then decided that you are not asexual and as much as you care about her, being in a sexless relationship is not something you signed on for and it is not you OR her fault - just bad luck - and broken up.
Please go see a counselor alone. Consider moving out soon and do NOT HAVE SEX RIGHT NOW EVEN IF SHE OFFERS. She would be using it to manipulate you, and possibly get pregnant/force marriage. You need to work through all the crummy stuff in your head, and start figuring out a way out of this relationship and understanding that you both deserve better. But not together. You are both very young. You should not lock yourself into this terribly depressing relationship and future because you feel you owe her, or it's been too long to not just get married and you're both comfortable with each other. Please get counseling
It will be sad. You both do care about each other. You share years of memories, inside jokes, sad stuff where you were there for each other and all that baggage. But that doesn't mean what you have didn't have an expiration date. Yours is long past. Mourn the loss, but move on.
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There are non-hormonal birth controls.
While the timing of pre/post affair suggests that's not the root cause, it's possible the BC is causing a lack of sex drive.
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I agree with Frankie's Girl. I was trying to be nice. But she hit the nail on the head.
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She is just advancing her goals now, she's mid twenties so time to get married and have a kid
I fear this is the root of things. People tend to marry the person they're with when they reach the normal age for marriage in their culture.
OP, I'm really sorry you're in this situation. I spent most of my 20s in a relationship that was okay... ish. There were some problems and those turned out to get worse over time, but I didn't want to be a quitter, you know? So I stayed about 3 years longer than I should have. I wish I could spare you the pain of going through that type of experience, but I think you're already there.
I know you don't want to hear this, but you would be doing both you and your current partner a kindness by ending this sooner rather than later.
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You know what I call people who are really close that don't have sex with each other? Good friends. Sounds like that's where this relationship needs to go.
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There are non-hormonal birth controls.
While the timing of pre/post affair suggests that's not the root cause, it's possible the BC is causing a lack of sex drive.
I meant to say this as well. When I first went on hormonal birth control (many years ago), I lost all desire to have sex. I went off it for a few months and then back on and didn't have the same side effect (thank goodness). I don't remember it was the same type of pill or whether we tried something different.
With that said, Frankie's Girl has written what is most likely to be useful to you, in the end. With much sympathy, I'm sorry you're going through this. Please think carefully. If it's difficult now, it will be way more difficult in another five or eight years, especially with a child in the mix.
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BC: It's hormonal and pill. Obviously I'd be looking at other forms of protection if it was the root cause.
No matter how you skew it; while it may be manipulated to a degree at the same time I'm being manipulative back. When I have told her I can't get married without some sort of established sex life she takes that pretty hard. Like almost I don't love her unconditionally enough to marry her. And it may stem from the past where I did choose someone else over her.
She said the other day she just knows I'm the one she wants to be with forever through whatever (doesn't matter if we're living in a box or what) and even though there's possibly and probably someone else out there better for me; she hopes i'll pick her. I've tried to consider what would happen if we do separate and it's just this feeling of I don't want anything else. I try to imagine going home to an empty house or not stopping by the store to grab the specific yogurts and cookies she likes on the way home and it's just this empty black hole. I can see myself marrying her, but I guess I just hid that thought away for years. I wouldn't even talk about it up until last year as the idea just wasn't something I knew how to feel about (still dont).
We have another counsoling appointment thursday so i'm hoping maybe we can get more meaningful conversation out that way. Our cruise trip is coming up April 15-26. She was planning on stopping after that as apparantly it wrecks havoc on your body and she wanted to enjoy the vacation.
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BC: It's hormonal and pill. Obviously I'd be looking at other forms of protection if it was the root cause.
No matter how you skew it; while it may be manipulated to a degree at the same time I'm being manipulative back. When I have told her I can't get married without some sort of established sex life she takes that pretty hard.
This is not manipulative. It is honest.
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She is just advancing her goals now, she's mid twenties so time to get married and have a kid
I fear this is the root of things. People tend to marry the person they're with when they reach the normal age for marriage in their culture.
OP, I'm really sorry you're in this situation. I spent most of my 20s in a relationship that was okay... ish. There were some problems and those turned out to get worse over time, but I didn't want to be a quitter, you know? So I stayed about 3 years longer than I should have. I wish I could spare you the pain of going through that type of experience, but I think you're already there.
I know you don't want to hear this, but you would be doing both you and your current partner a kindness by ending this sooner rather than later.
I mean I can sort of get it. From a womans standpoint you are on a biological clock plus considered some sort of spinster if you wait around while all your friends are getting married. And yeah, right now I feel you on the don't want to be a quitter. I think we get along great, never fight, etc but while she feels fufilled I don't. And any conversation leads in a loop-which ends at all we can do is try if you're in this if you're not- we break up. She did say she wanted to feel chosen and picked (engaged) before she wanted to open up sexually (earlier had stated mairrage) and have a long year+ engagement, but can't before then. Worse case at least we tried everything and isn't it at least worth fighting for vs walking away? It's hard because I feel about as committed as I could be. I always try to put her first.
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BC: It's hormonal and pill. Obviously I'd be looking at other forms of protection if it was the root cause.
No matter how you skew it; while it may be manipulated to a degree at the same time I'm being manipulative back. When I have told her I can't get married without some sort of established sex life she takes that pretty hard. Like almost I don't love her unconditionally enough to marry her. And it may stem from the past where I did choose someone else over her.
She said the other day she just knows I'm the one she wants to be with forever through whatever (doesn't matter if we're living in a box or what) and even though there's possibly and probably someone else out there better for me; she hopes i'll pick her. I've tried to consider what would happen if we do separate and it's just this feeling of I don't want anything else. I try to imagine going home to an empty house or not stopping by the store to grab the specific yogurts and cookies she likes on the way home and it's just this empty black hole. I can see myself marrying her, but I guess I just hid that thought away for years. I wouldn't even talk about it up until last year as the idea just wasn't something I knew how to feel about (still dont).
We have another counsoling appointment thursday so i'm hoping maybe we can get more meaningful conversation out that way. Our cruise trip is coming up April 15-26. She was planning on stopping after that as apparantly it wrecks havoc on your body and she wanted to enjoy the vacation.
It's not manipulative to assert your needs in a relationship - sex is a need, and you are allowed to make that a condition of marriage for you - it's only manipulative/abusive if you trick her into it or rape her to get sex.
There's also no need for "unconditional love" because really, that means a person can treat you however they want and you have to keep on loving them, and that's extremely unhealthy. If my partner crossed my boundaries or abused me, I would leave him, even though I love him, because a condition for my love is that I need to be treated well and not abused.
Also, just because you can't picture what else you want now, doesn't mean that what you have is the best it gets. It's hard to see out when you are in a hole, but dig yourself out and look around, and you will see everything else that is out there.
It sounds like she is a lot more set on you than you are on her, and that she has some insecurities and issues as well. Go to counseling and see if you can make progress on any of the issues, but honestly, you don't sound happy or committed and both of you deserve much better than this.
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BC: It's hormonal and pill. Obviously I'd be looking at other forms of protection if it was the root cause.
No matter how you skew it; while it may be manipulated to a degree at the same time I'm being manipulative back. When I have told her I can't get married without some sort of established sex life she takes that pretty hard.
This is not manipulative. It is honest.
It is honest; I guess where does it give. I either get engaged and we try to establish something and sink/swim or I decide not to and we break up. Neither is appealing but trying to bring this aspect back to our relationship is something I feel like deserves a try. Obviously it seems offputting (you'll only marry me if _____)
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BC: It's hormonal and pill. Obviously I'd be looking at other forms of protection if it was the root cause.
No matter how you skew it; while it may be manipulated to a degree at the same time I'm being manipulative back. When I have told her I can't get married without some sort of established sex life she takes that pretty hard. Like almost I don't love her unconditionally enough to marry her. And it may stem from the past where I did choose someone else over her.
She said the other day she just knows I'm the one she wants to be with forever through whatever (doesn't matter if we're living in a box or what) and even though there's possibly and probably someone else out there better for me; she hopes i'll pick her. I've tried to consider what would happen if we do separate and it's just this feeling of I don't want anything else. I try to imagine going home to an empty house or not stopping by the store to grab the specific yogurts and cookies she likes on the way home and it's just this empty black hole. I can see myself marrying her, but I guess I just hid that thought away for years. I wouldn't even talk about it up until last year as the idea just wasn't something I knew how to feel about (still dont).
We have another counsoling appointment thursday so i'm hoping maybe we can get more meaningful conversation out that way. Our cruise trip is coming up April 15-26. She was planning on stopping after that as apparantly it wrecks havoc on your body and she wanted to enjoy the vacation.
It's not manipulative to assert your needs in a relationship - sex is a need, and you are allowed to make that a condition of marriage for you - it's only manipulative/abusive if you trick her into it or rape her to get sex.
There's also no need for "unconditional love" because really, that means a person can treat you however they want and you have to keep on loving them, and that's extremely unhealthy. If my partner crossed my boundaries or abused me, I would leave him, even though I love him, because a condition for my love is that I need to be treated well and not abused.
Also, just because you can't picture what else you want now, doesn't mean that what you have is the best it gets. It's hard to see out when you are in a hole, but dig yourself out and look around, and you will see everything else that is out there.
It sounds like she is a lot more set on you than you are on her, and that she has some insecurities and issues as well. Go to counseling and see if you can make progress on any of the issues, but honestly, you don't sound happy or committed and both of you deserve much better than this.
I'm not not commited to her; I'm just not commited to a lifetime commitment if our relationshipp stays how it is. She said she can't promise to change but that's all she can try to do. I tell her I don't expect her do but I also can't be married if we can't work something out like that. To her that sort of kills the engagement idea. We have our 3rd consoling session thursday night and I'm hoping we can get more out there. She definitly does feel insecure and confides that in me; but I'm not sure how much beyond getting engaged I can give on my end.
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As well as the above thoughts (which I skimmed) - what you might need is a sex therapist. A counselor is a good start - but if the issue of no sex life calls for a specialist. There may be other issues your GF isn’t admitting (painful sex, previous abuse, etc.). She might be willing to discuss those alone with a counselor and/or sex therapist.
If she isn’t willing to fix this before marriage - do not pass “Go”
If she is willing, still consider not getting married, and really consider whether to have kids! Don’t get married or have unprotected sex during the trying to fix it phase.
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IME, marriage does not fix any problems and in fact brings on a lot more problems. Also, what are your financial situations like? Do you have significantly more savings than her? Because if you do, if you get divorced, she gets half.
Also, going off birth control will make it much easier for an "oops baby" to happen. What will you do if you end up getting her pregnant? Maybe she feels that adding a baby to the equation will tip you over toward getting married.
I'm trying to leave finances out of it but yes I have more savings. I also own the house with my father on the title (although she owns most of the furniture and tealights hah). That being said i'm not exactly worth a ton. She mentioned protection even on bc so i'm pretty sure that's not her intent. She wants a kid but not for quite some time.
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Just a caveat - when you say she is going to stop the BC, I assume you are talking about the pill or equivalent? Because yes, the hormones can affect libido. But the 2 of you need to make sure you have alternative birth control methods in place before you start doing anything. Because do you really want to set yourselves up for a situation where you feel you "have" to get married because she is pregnant?
And actually why is she talking about stopping BC? Because if you 2 are not ever having sex, she doesn't need anything for birth control. If she is taking BC for other health reasons, then stopping it means she needs to have a major talk with her doctor about health repercussions. Unless you just saying "stopping her BC" is a vague way of saying that it really means getting her hormone based IUD out. In which case you two still need to think about other BC methods.
Yep the pill. Proper bc measures would be in place.
She's been on it for years to regulate her periods.
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As well as the above thoughts (which I skimmed) - what you might need is a sex therapist. A counselor is a good start - but if the issue of no sex life calls for a specialist. There may be other issues your GF isn’t admitting (painful sex, previous abuse, etc.). She might be willing to discuss those alone with a counselor and/or sex therapist.
If she isn’t willing to fix this before marriage - do not pass “Go”
If she is willing, still consider not getting married, and really consider whether to have kids! Don’t get married or have unprotected sex during the trying to fix it phase.
To clarify she's willing to try and open up if we get engaged (and a longer engagement 1 year+ would be fine). I may look at a therapist if this consoler doesn't open any doors. All out of pocket so only one at a time.
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@zoochadookdook - I think I just read a bit higher up the thread that you're only on your 3rd counseling session? While there are many other things here to address in conversation, I'd like to speak to this one.
Please continue going to counseling. If it doesn't seem like a good fit (perhaps after 5-6 visits), change counselors or seek a sex counselor specifically. Planned Parenthood sometimes offers sex counseling, as do many private practices.
Many cultures also have a LOT of stigma surrounding sex, so even if it might seem like you're not making "progress" please know that this is a hard subject to address even in counseling with a closed door.
*I consider myself pretty sex-positive/open and I still get walled-up and only want to talk at a slow and deliberate way with friends or my counselor about sex topics.
I won't speak to whether or not you should get engaged, married, or have kids. But I do know that if you'd like to continue your relationship you should commit to continued counseling.
As a person who put off therapy for 30-something years, I am just now beginning the process. I have been in therapy 3x week (1/2 hour sessions) for just shy of a year now, and I'd say I am just scraping the surface.
Give it time.
I wish you both the best of luck <3
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As well as the above thoughts (which I skimmed) - what you might need is a sex therapist. A counselor is a good start - but if the issue of no sex life calls for a specialist. There may be other issues your GF isn’t admitting (painful sex, previous abuse, etc.). She might be willing to discuss those alone with a counselor and/or sex therapist.
If she isn’t willing to fix this before marriage - do not pass “Go”
If she is willing, still consider not getting married, and really consider whether to have kids! Don’t get married or have unprotected sex during the trying to fix it phase.
To clarify she's willing to try and open up if we get engaged (and a longer engagement 1 year+ would be fine). I may look at a therapist if this consoler doesn't open any doors. All out of pocket so only one at a time.
She’s willing ONKY if you get engaged. Hard No. don’t get engaged unless you see real progress in counseling (pedantic note - counselor, not consoled). I read @Frankies Girl post more fully - spot on. For whatever reason - this “engagement “ / sex quid pro quo is just extortion. Break up. But continue counseling on your own to figure out why you think blackmail is a kind offer.
Good luck.
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@zoochadookdook - I think I just read a bit higher up the thread that you're only on your 3rd counseling session? While there are many other things here to address in conversation, I'd like to speak to this one.
Please continue going to counseling. If it doesn't seem like a good fit (perhaps after 5-6 visits), change counselors or seek a sex counselor specifically. Planned Parenthood sometimes offers sex counseling, as do many private practices.
Many cultures also have a LOT of stigma surrounding sex, so even if it might seem like you're not making "progress" please know that this is a hard subject to address even in counseling with a closed door.
*I consider myself pretty sex-positive/open and I still get walled-up and only want to talk at a slow and deliberate way with friends or my counselor about sex topics.
I won't speak to whether or not you should get engaged, married, or have kids. But I do know that if you'd like to continue your relationship you should commit to continued counseling.
As a person who put off therapy for 30-something years, I am just now beginning the process. I have been in therapy 3x week (1/2 hour sessions) for just shy of a year now, and I'd say I am just scraping the surface.
Give it time.
I wish you both the best of luck <3
Thanks, I tried to research a bunch of areas around us and a lot had less than stellar reviews/it's not quite as easy to find as say-a good salon. She did mention she thinks I should seek individual consoling to better work out what's important to me as she's pretty clear in that she knows what she wants and that may be true as well. I plan on going to a individual session this satuday at a different place.
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As well as the above thoughts (which I skimmed) - what you might need is a sex therapist. A counselor is a good start - but if the issue of no sex life calls for a specialist. There may be other issues your GF isn’t admitting (painful sex, previous abuse, etc.). She might be willing to discuss those alone with a counselor and/or sex therapist.
If she isn’t willing to fix this before marriage - do not pass “Go”
If she is willing, still consider not getting married, and really consider whether to have kids! Don’t get married or have unprotected sex during the trying to fix it phase.
To clarify she's willing to try and open up if we get engaged (and a longer engagement 1 year+ would be fine). I may look at a therapist if this consoler doesn't open any doors. All out of pocket so only one at a time.
She’s willing ONKY if you get engaged. Hard No. don’t get engaged unless you see real progress in counseling (pedantic note - counselor, not consoled). I read @Frankies Girl post more fully - spot on. For whatever reason - this “engagement “ / sex quid pro quo is just extortion. Break up. But continue counseling on your own to figure out why you think blackmail is a kind offer.
Good luck.
I know what I did years agp hurt her and neither of use has actually addressed it until recently. In her mind engagement might seem/actually be what allows her to open back up in that way but neither of us actually know if she's capable of feeling like that aside from her promise to "try like hell"
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A ring and piece of paper will not change this; don't get married expecting that your partner will change. Your partner will change, but it will probably be in ways you can't anticipate.
She's interested in marriage, you're not.
You're interested in sex, she's not.
To be blunt, it doesn't sound like your wants/needs are compatible for a long-term relationship.
This is a much more concise version of what I was going to say.
The fact that you're here stating such large life questions shows that you have serious reservations. Your partner is trying to bully you into making a commitment before she will even try to make the relationship something you'd want. Sounds like a 100% no go.
This.
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You two would probably be happier not together.
There is only so much energy people can expend on compromising and changing themselves before resentment and/or indifference start to build in.
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For the OP, do you feel like you are attractive? One thing I've noticed is that people who feel like they are attractive (not just physically, but personality too) are much more likely to exit a bad relationship. For people that don't feel like they are attractive, they often stick around because "who else could possibly love me". It's one of those unstated, underlying issues I see frequently with friends/family/acquaintances.
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For the OP, do you feel like you are attractive? One thing I've noticed is that people who feel like they are attractive (not just physically, but personality too) are much more likely to exit a bad relationship. For people that don't feel like they are attractive, they often stick around because "who else could possibly love me". It's one of those unstated, underlying issues I see frequently with friends/family/acquaintances.
I think so. I teach wrestling on the side some nights and am in near the best shape of my life. I'm 6ft, 190lbs and feel good at this weight (I used to compete around 165/170 so a bit heavier but hey it happens). I could find people to date and whatever but I have no desire to.
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Dude, run!
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Dude, run!
Lol anyone can run, I'm trying to work this out as best as I can. It may end or it may not, but I'd like to at least try and not have any regrets.
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BC: It's hormonal and pill. Obviously I'd be looking at other forms of protection if it was the root cause.
No matter how you skew it; while it may be manipulated to a degree at the same time I'm being manipulative back. When I have told her I can't get married without some sort of established sex life she takes that pretty hard. Like almost I don't love her unconditionally enough to marry her. And it may stem from the past where I did choose someone else over her.
She said the other day she just knows I'm the one she wants to be with forever through whatever (doesn't matter if we're living in a box or what) and even though there's possibly and probably someone else out there better for me; she hopes i'll pick her. I've tried to consider what would happen if we do separate and it's just this feeling of I don't want anything else. I try to imagine going home to an empty house or not stopping by the store to grab the specific yogurts and cookies she likes on the way home and it's just this empty black hole. I can see myself marrying her, but I guess I just hid that thought away for years. I wouldn't even talk about it up until last year as the idea just wasn't something I knew how to feel about (still dont).
We have another counsoling appointment thursday so i'm hoping maybe we can get more meaningful conversation out that way. Our cruise trip is coming up April 15-26. She was planning on stopping after that as apparantly it wrecks havoc on your body and she wanted to enjoy the vacation.
The part in red I highlighted above? That's where your youth and naivety is showing.
Big, scary truth bomb here: there is no such thing as unconditional love in a healthy relationship. That is love beyond reasonable. That is loving a serial killer or abuser or someone that continually hurts you because "he's a good man when he's sober and not smacking me and the kids around" type of love. It twists things around and the fact that you can't take a step back and re-read what you've written here and seen how absolutely sick your entire relationship is... that is super scary.
Unconditional love is a desperate sort of romanticized love that means "you have to forgive me even when I act like a shit to you because you LOOVE me" - it is not real and it is not something to strive for in a mature relationship. At best it is what a parent might feel towards their child - but in a grown up mature relationship - you will always have conditions. Being treated like garbage and never being forgiven for a past mistake, or living sexless for the rest of your life unless she wants to have a kid should be hills to die on.
Just because you made some mistakes and she made some mistakes... so that makes you even/made for each other? No, it doesn't. This is not something you just settle for. You have great reservations, otherwise this wouldn't even be a think to question. LISTEN TO YOUR INNER VOICE.
That whole coming home to an empty house and stopping off to buy her food things and all the stuff you shared mutually over the years and it is just so scary to think about her not being there any more? That's fear of the unknown and being alone and feeling stupid for having invested so much time into this and the next step should just be getting married and popping out kids and ..... it's fear and loss of the familiar and comfortable. You are friends. You are comfortable together. That does NOT mean you are a good couple or should get married.
What you want is a true, deep, and abiding love that is a based on respect, on desire, and true affection and concern for the other person's wellbeing and happiness. It is kindness. It is forgiveness when asked for. It is support when one of you is hurting. It is being open and non-judgmental when someone makes a mistake. It is setting clear boundaries in what you and your partner need from each other and doing your damnedest to follow through with them. It is caring for your partner's needs as if they are your own.
Do you think your girlfriend is considering your feelings over all these years? Do you think it is right to be continually chastized and guilted for things you deeply regret and have apologized for over and over again? Is this how you want the rest of your life to be? Just okay, feeling neglected and sometimes very lonely in this relationship, but hey, at least she's someone to sit on the couch with or go out to dinner right? Warm body without any real connection/affection for the rest of your life - FTW!
It is not holding grudges forever and setting ultimatums. If you have something you want/need from your partner, it means talking through things without threats, or guilt, or "well, you OWE me" bullshit. You work things out and compromise, or you part ways with the understanding that as much as you loved each other, some things just should not be compromised on. Sex, having/not having kids, using a past mistake as a stick to beat you with forever, holding out the carrot of "maybe I'll sex you again if you marry me?" This is a hard line, absolute - dangerous, unhealthy, completely wrong and poisonous.
You've both been drinking the hemlock for so long, you don't realize there is any other way to be, and you're both too scared of leaving and the unknown out there to just make a clean break. And again - look up SUNK COST FALLACY. It applies to relationships too.
I'm gonna check out of this at this point because I think it likely you're not really wanting to do the hard stuff of leaving and starting over. That makes me sad. For the both of you. Because I have zero doubt that you're going to end up with a child or two and divorced and very, very bitter and depressed 5 years from now if not sooner. And it didn't have to be that way if you valued yourself AND HER enough to do the hard but very right thing and break up and get counseling to work through all this stuff so your next relationship could be beautiful.
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You seem to be stuck in some kind of relationship sunk cost fallacy. Y'all have huge compatibility issues (goals, sex drive, communication) that only seem like working on because of how long y'all have been together.
Luckily, you are both young enough to focus on finding someone each of you are significantly more compatible with and still meet your goals with that future partner.
One more internet stranger that thinks it is time to end this and each of you start the effort to find more compatible partners.
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I wish that I'd had friends like @Frankies Girl and @Kris to get advice from when I was dating and trying to decide what 'the right thing' was.
I'll add my name to the chorus of those saying in some form: 'if you think you're miserable now, just wait until you're married'.
Life goes on.
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I'm kind of stunned that the OP even asked this question on this forum. I'm not really sure when we became Reddit.
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No!
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You need to fix your sex life before marriage. If that can’t be fixed you won’t be happy. Even old people want sex. It’s a basic human need. It’s much worse to get divorced than to break up with someone at this point in your relationship. Marriage is hard and kids make it harder.
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@Frankies Girl is on the nose. Dude, you sound really, really young. This is an immature relationship. I think it's struck a nerve because probably a lot of us have some complicated memories of relationships that had intractable problems just like the ones you describe...and some of us had to learn the hard way that we should have run. Others of us didn't run and wish we had.
The intense young love long term boyfriend that inhabited the chapter of my own life that parallels yours...the dude broke it off and I was devastated. Twenty years later I can't believe he put up with me for as long as he did. He didn't bail earlier because he was young, naive, and inexperienced. Trust me: leaving me in the lurch to figure out my issues and grow up was the best decision the guy ever made for both of us.
I got married about ten years later, at 33. My marriage is really happy. The other guy got married to someone else, and as far as I can tell, he's really happy, too. Listen to the old cynical folks here. Get some counseling and get out.
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@Frankies Girl is on the nose. Dude, you sound really, really young. This is an immature relationship. I think it's struck a nerve because probably a lot of us have some complicated memories of relationships that had intractable problems just like the ones you describe...and some of us had to learn the hard way that we should have run. Others of us didn't run and wish we had.
The intense young love long term boyfriend that inhabited the chapter of my own life that parallels yours...the dude broke it off and I was devastated. Twenty years later I can't believe he put up with me for as long as he did. He didn't bail earlier because he was young, naive, and inexperienced. Trust me: leaving me in the lurch to figure out my issues and grow up was the best decision the guy ever made for both of us.
I got married about ten years later, at 33. My marriage is really happy. The other guy got married to someone else, and as far as I can tell, he's really happy, too. Listen to the old cynical folks here. Get some counseling and get out.
This. 100%.
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Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is the possibility that your girlfriend is demi sexual - someone who only experiences sexual attraction when they have a strong emotional connection with their sexual partner. That might fit with the notion that she did experience desire for you before your infidelity but that since then she has not been able to recreate the necessary romantic connection with you that would lead to her having sexual feelings towards you.
Her request for a commitment from you in the form of marriage might be what she needs in order for her to recreate that missing romantic connection. But I can't see how you can make that commitment in the absence of any certainty that it will make that difference. Commendably, you are not prepared either to lie about your commitment or to make a commitment while thinking that you will break it later if it doesn't work out. Sadly, I think that means that the two of you have reached an impasse: there is no way forward out of this current situation based on what you say about your commitment to her that can work for both of you.
A relationship which hasn't been sexual for 7 years is a friends relationship or a brother/sister relationship, not a husband/wife relationship. Married friends tell me that after a few decades their relationship becomes much less about the sex, but marriage should not start out that way. It might be worth one final try of your girlfriend going off the pill to see if that makes a difference to her - it could well take 3 months or more for her hormones to regulate back to baseline and find this out. Alternative forms of contraception are essential if you are trying this route. And if it doesn't work, time for both of you to move on to finding the relationships which will make each of you feel complete.
Good luck.
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No!
Seconded.
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Well there is a general consensus here that marriage isnt a good idea. I agree - but!
I would ask yourself a few questions here OP.
Do you act toward her as someone you desire? Do you sleep in the same bed? Do you laugh and cuddle and caress? Do you kiss her and tell her she smells wonderful? Will you sit on the couch and hold her hand? Bring her breakfast in bed?
Sex is not just wham bam thank you ma'am.
Sex starts way before you get to the bedroom, or even touch.
So may be if you want a sexual relationship you need to do some courtship!
Her lack of desire may simply reflect your lack of interest in emotional connection.
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I’m really sorry to hear that you are both in this situation and I have a lot of sympathy for you both. I am glad you are in counseling and hope that is productive, regardless of outcome.
This particular woman needs an emotional connection with her partner to feel safe and desired and sexy. For me personally I was with my now-husband for many years before we got engaged. I knew I wanted to be with him and him not being on that same page was a real struggle for me. It is incredibly important for partners to be on the same page with big values such as money, culture, career, kids, goals in life. The question of whether to get married or not is a hugely important value that can be very stressful for partners if not aligned. I had a ton of self doubt along the lines of “why am I not good enough? Why isn’t he interested in committing to me? Am I wasting my time and fooling myself that he will eventually want the same thing as me?”
I am very blessed that he did end up in the same place, but just took a lot longer to get there. I feel our relationship really clicked into place fully when we got married. We are now 100% Team and not two people who are living lives in parallel while coordinating a lot. Decisions are made for the good of Team Marriage, not one or the other. So in some ways I’m trying to say that I relate a bit to where your GF is coming from. Adding in a last infidelity that sounds like it was never properly dealt with, that adds insecurity. That isn’t a recipe for sexy time in my mind.
From your perspective I think it is completely reasonable to expect a decent sex love before contemplating marriage. I think that is likely the tip of the iceberg and your problems are simply manifesting themselves through your GF’s low sex drive. Good luck with counseling and I hope your cruise is relaxing and a good chance for you to reconnect.
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Well there is a general consensus here that marriage isnt a good idea. I agree - but!
I would ask yourself a few questions here OP.
Do you act toward her as someone you desire? Do you sleep in the same bed? Do you laugh and cuddle and caress? Do you kiss her and tell her she smells wonderful? Will you sit on the couch and hold her hand? Bring her breakfast in bed?
Sex is not just wham bam thank you ma'am.
Sex starts way before you get to the bedroom, or even touch.
So may be if you want a sexual relationship you need to do some courtship!
Her lack of desire may simply reflect your lack of interest in emotional connection.
We sleep in the same bed, laugh at stupid stuff all the time, snuggle up and binge watch all the time, lately been working on the more physical kissing and such more. I don't feel like we lack an emotional connection.
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Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is the possibility that your girlfriend is demi sexual - someone who only experiences sexual attraction when they have a strong emotional connection with their sexual partner. That might fit with the notion that she did experience desire for you before your infidelity but that since then she has not been able to recreate the necessary romantic connection with you that would lead to her having sexual feelings towards you.
Her request for a commitment from you in the form of marriage might be what she needs in order for her to recreate that missing romantic connection. But I can't see how you can make that commitment in the absence of any certainty that it will make that difference. Commendably, you are not prepared either to lie about your commitment or to make a commitment while thinking that you will break it later if it doesn't work out. Sadly, I think that means that the two of you have reached an impasse: there is no way forward out of this current situation based on what you say about your commitment to her that can work for both of you.
A relationship which hasn't been sexual for 7 years is a friends relationship or a brother/sister relationship, not a husband/wife relationship. Married friends tell me that after a few decades their relationship becomes much less about the sex, but marriage should not start out that way. It might be worth one final try of your girlfriend going off the pill to see if that makes a difference to her - it could well take 3 months or more for her hormones to regulate back to baseline and find this out. Alternative forms of contraception are essential if you are trying this route. And if it doesn't work, time for both of you to move on to finding the relationships which will make each of you feel complete.
Good luck.
I spoke to her last night and she said a very similar thing-she doesn't feel emotionally fufilled unless I do propose and commit to her in that way. I don't expect everything to be about sex or with regards to sex, but I do value that in a marriage with a wife I intend to be with until one of us kicks it. She will go off BC after the cruise mid april, i'm just hoping if i don't propse on that trip she doesn't completely emotionally disconnect. This is something she's built up in her head for a while
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I want to clarify a few things. She has never held my earlier infedelity directly against me. For the most part, once we got back together it was "for good". Since that point she says she's never imagined anything aside from a future with me. That being said, she also mentioned the other day that she wants to be engaged to feel 100% committed to. I'm not against marriage and she's got a million good qualities-she's great with kids (worked in childcare the last xx years), she makes me happy in the sense of just being around, she's kind, educated, optomistic etc. I don't really know why my mind can't wrap itself around marriage. I'm telling myself it's just that I want intamcy back and establish but I also haven't thought about children that much. I think I would like them but I always imagined I'd be more established/have more finances and a career ironed out prior. I'm 26 (27 in may) for anyone who's been wondering about the age. She's 27 next january. She's asked for me to tell her if i'm not proposing on the cruise we take in 2 weeks just so she won't be nervous/get all wound up to be disappointed and I think that's fair. Emotionally we share a connection; a pretty good one. When we're together I can imagine that forever. It's not that dark/unhappy of a relationship at all. I'm just having trouble sorting my feelings out.
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I think it’s likely you can’t wrap your head around it because she isn’t the right person for you.
Another old person perspective: i can’t tell you how many people I know who were in long-term relationships they thought would end in marriage, but eventualky split up because one wasn’t able to commit. Then, that person met someone else post-breakup and was engaged within a year or two.
Also: you NEED to tell her you will not be proposing on this cruise. Before you leave. Seriously.
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I’m really sorry to hear that you are both in this situation and I have a lot of sympathy for you both. I am glad you are in counseling and hope that is productive, regardless of outcome.
This particular woman needs an emotional connection with her partner to feel safe and desired and sexy. For me personally I was with my now-husband for many years before we got engaged. I knew I wanted to be with him and him not being on that same page was a real struggle for me. It is incredibly important for partners to be on the same page with big values such as money, culture, career, kids, goals in life. The question of whether to get married or not is a hugely important value that can be very stressful for partners if not aligned. I had a ton of self doubt along the lines of “why am I not good enough? Why isn’t he interested in committing to me? Am I wasting my time and fooling myself that he will eventually want the same thing as me?”
I am very blessed that he did end up in the same place, but just took a lot longer to get there. I feel our relationship really clicked into place fully when we got married. We are now 100% Team and not two people who are living lives in parallel while coordinating a lot. Decisions are made for the good of Team Marriage, not one or the other. So in some ways I’m trying to say that I relate a bit to where your GF is coming from. Adding in a last infidelity that sounds like it was never properly dealt with, that adds insecurity. That isn’t a recipe for sexy time in my mind.
From your perspective I think it is completely reasonable to expect a decent sex love before contemplating marriage. I think that is likely the tip of the iceberg and your problems are simply manifesting themselves through your GF’s low sex drive. Good luck with counseling and I hope your cruise is relaxing and a good chance for you to reconnect.
I can completely understand her point of view even if i can't share the way she feels. She has stated many times she wants to be "chosen" and imagines our life together and hasn't ever thought of it differently. She equates engagement and marraige to something very important and a forward step in her mind. I've been picturing moving forward in our relationship before that but it may not be possible due to her prior mental block which puts me in the hot seat to make a decision. Is my current security and happiness (i'm not unhappy in our relationship) enough for me to commit to engagement? We had one short break prior (like a week) about 4 years back because I had no view on the future and she just saw that as I couldn't commit. I seem to have a history of not wanting something until I lose it (infedelity led to me coming back for weeks, this break was miserable and we came back to eachother). She brought that up and it was a valid point in that I do seem to have commitment issues and that's something else in the play of things.
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edit: Update:
I want to clarify a few things. She has never held my earlier infedelity directly against me. For the most part, once we got back together it was "for good". Since that point she says she's never imagined anything aside from a future with me. That being said, she also mentioned the other day that she wants to be engaged to feel 100% committed to. I'm not against marriage and she's got a million good qualities-she's great with kids (worked in childcare the last xx years), she makes me happy in the sense of just being around, she's kind, educated, optomistic etc. I don't really know why my mind can't wrap itself around marriage. I'm telling myself it's just that I want intamcy back and establish but I also haven't thought about children that much. I think I would like them but I always imagined I'd be more established/have more finances and a career ironed out prior. I'm 26 (27 in may) for anyone who's been wondering about the age. She's 25-26 next january. She's asked for me to tell her if i'm not proposing on the cruise we take in 2 weeks just so she won't be nervous/get all wound up to be disappointed and I think that's fair. Emotionally we share a connection; a pretty good one. When we're together I can imagine that forever. It's not that dark/unhappy of a relationship at all. I'm just having trouble sorting my feelings out. We had one short break prior (like a week) about 4 years back because I had no view on the future and she just saw that as I couldn't commit. I seem to have a history of not wanting something until I lose it (infedelity led to me coming back for weeks, this break was miserable and we came back to eachother). She brought that up and it was a valid point in that I do seem to have commitment issues and that's something else in the play of things.
Hey all so facts
M26. f25. Have been together 7 years.
Early on I cheated, shitbag young kid style. Prior we were very sexually active. Since then-several months in-we haven't had sexual relations.
Lately she's been bringing up engagement and really pushing for it (understandable as it has been 7.5 years).
We went to a consoler twice (again this thursday) and really started opening up afterwards. I love her, she loves and wants to spend the rest of her me-BUT when we started talking about sex and such she mentioned she just never has the desire ever. No drive. No feelings in that department. She has mentioned she's willing to try at least if we get engaged as she pictures us having a regular sex life (there's a cruise we had planned mid April for 11 days) but has no promise she can make herself feel like that at all. She plans on stopping her BC after the cruise as that's really the only hormonal block she can think of. That puts the ball in my court. She was crying and just said she couldn't promise it as it's something she can't feel/she thinks we know eachother well enough and can make anything work by this point. She doesn't even expect to get married for a long time (year+), but she wants the feeling of commitment and being chosen before she can try (her words). I have made it clear I don't believe it would be beneficial to get married if we can't at least figure out some sort of situation. She thinks it could be her bc or just how long it's been. Obviously she said the earlier infidelity played a role in how she viewed sex and that she's always thought we'd have forever together since then/to let herself emotionally try in that department and open up she'd like to be engaged to try at least. I think after this amount of time it is fair that engagement is on the table. She has said that she wants to be married and just live the rest of our life out; and she gets hurt because every time we talk I have the worst case what if scenarios in mind. It's true though; neither of us knows what will happen in the future. She could go through a midlife crisis and hit the lotto/head out. I could get hit crossing the street and not be able to work for a living.
Personally I haven't thought a lot about being married or kids (she wants at least one) and trying to process the time management and implications all of these bring has been stressing me out. I love her and could see a life with her but I need that emotional desire and want to feel wanted. Still not sure what my overall life goals are but i'm working on defining those and understanding where my own happiness comes from while still remaining practical (keeping my 8-5 etc).
I'm posting here to try to get some perspectives. When did you know you wanted to or didn't want to marry someone? When did you decide you wanted or didn't want kids? Is it possible for someone to fluctuate in between asexual and average sexuality? Anyone been in a similar relationship or considering marriage? Thanks
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I think it’s likely you can’t wrap your head around it because she isn’t the right person for you.
Another old person perspective: i can’t tell you how many people I know who were in long-term relationships they thought would end in marriage, but eventualky split up because one wasn’t able to commit. Then, that person met someone else post-breakup and was engaged within a year or two.
Also: you NEED to tell her you will not be proposing on this cruise. Before you leave. Seriously.
Absolutly I plan on telling her. I'm not going to just ride it out and create false expectations if I'm not 100%. I'm hoping that doesn't cause her to just completely retract her emotions but I also don't want to create a conditional engagement.
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dude. you are way too young not to be banging all the time. you are a comfort blanket to her. It's not gonna get better, it's only gonna get worse.
do not propose. do not marry her. do not get her pregnant (use condoms if she stops birth control). in fact, you should start using condoms now (not saying she'd stop BC before telling you, but....)
signed,
been there, done that.
p.s. in more PC terms, she loves you. She is not in love with you. There is a difference. It's not gonna change.
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Its ok for a person to have commitment issues. But that person would be happiest in a relationship where commitment isn't an entrance fee into the relationship.
Its ok for a person to have hangups about sex. But that person would be happiest in a relationship where sex expectations isn't an entrance fee into the relationship.
But those 2 things combined do not make a recipe for a happy relationship or a happy marriage. You seem to think that we are all unfairly judging or characterizing your girlfriend. We're not. We've had the life experience to have been in relationships like these and see them fail on a catastrophic levels.
I dated a guy with severe commitment issues. I felt like a rejected piece of shit. I thought if I only loved him harder, showed him more kindness that it would "fix him". ALERT: THERE IS NO FIXING PEOPLE. You will hopefully find a partner someday that completes you in such a way that there are no commitment issues. That would be an indication that the relationship is right for you both. Your GF will hopefully find a partner that completes her in such a way that there are no sex issues. That would be an indication that the relationship is right for her.
No amount of additional information or references from you is going to change the multitude of life experiences that the older and wiser here are giving you. The reality is what it is. Naive younger me had a really hard time with the concepts I mentioned above. But I finally got fed up and ended the relationship for good and cut off all contact. The fact that you cheated, and you also took a break later really highlights that your relationship is harder than it should be. My marriage is easy. There were never commitment issues, we don't fight and we work out the sex stuff. I only met my husband because I got fed up enough of feeling bad in my prior relationship.
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(i'm not unhappy in our relationship)
Ok. But are you HAPPY in your relationship? Do you wake up overjoyed to be together? Do you look at your SO and know she is definitely the spark in your life?
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(i'm not unhappy in our relationship)
Ok. But are you HAPPY in your relationship? Do you wake up overjoyed to be together? Do you look at your SO and know she is definitely the spark in your life?
She's my person, I don't really think of anyone else in terms of what can I do for her/how can I make her happy. I'm happy to be together. It's not that fiery "first met passion" but it's been happy enough to make us get to where we are now.
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It sounds like you are committed to her, so I don't really understand why she thinks your commitment won't be real until you get engaged. It doesn't sound like she takes your commitment seriously.
If you're set on staying with her for the rest of your life, reconcile yourself to a life of celibacy. I promise that getting engaged won't change her attitude about sex. Are you okay with that?
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Hmmm, so what happens if you get engaged and the sex doesn't change?
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It sounds like you are committed to her, so I don't really understand why she thinks your commitment won't be real until you get engaged. It doesn't sound like she takes your commitment seriously.
If you're set on staying with her for the rest of your life, reconcile yourself to a life of celibacy. I promise that getting engaged won't change her attitude about sex. Are you okay with that?
We've been able to discern that she doesn't feel 100% committed to unless I do get engaged-which is true because engagement is asking for marraige. Very likely due to cheating earlier on. I've been asking myself the same thing and still havent come up with a personal answer. I think i could do it, but i dont want to do it.
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Hmmm, so what happens if you get engaged and the sex doesn't change?
That's what she believes will change her mindset and willingness to open up physically again. She set that standard in her mind and I respect it. That being said-that's the main concern of my stress. Like the what if we can't regain that connection? She wants to move forward and believes we can establish it and work through anything but I believe it's something we should work on prior. That makes her feel not committed to and cycle repeats ha
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It sounds like you are committed to her, so I don't really understand why she thinks your commitment won't be real until you get engaged. It doesn't sound like she takes your commitment seriously.
If you're set on staying with her for the rest of your life, reconcile yourself to a life of celibacy. I promise that getting engaged won't change her attitude about sex. Are you okay with that?
We've been able to discern that she doesn't feel 100% committed to unless I do get engaged-which is true because engagement is asking for marraige. Very likely due to cheating earlier on. I've been asking myself the same thing and still havent come up with a personal answer. I think i could do it, but i dont want to do it.
And there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make you a bad guy.
You can still share love for each other and have this friendship for your entire life if you both want to, btw. I was in a similar situation once, but she was an important person in my life whose friendship I didn't want to lose. We're still friends 15 years later, and breaking up was one of the best things that ever happened to our relationship.
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Kris is right. When the relationship is not right you can’t commit. My son lived with a woman for 7 years and couldn’t commit. They broke up and within a year she was happily married and my son was 3 years later. We all knew the relationship was not right whereas my son thought he didn’t want to marry anyone.
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I'll add to the echo chamber: What you've experienced for the last seven years might feel normal to you, but by all outward appearances you are living in an extremely unhappy relationship. Breaking up will be extremely difficult if you choose to go that path, but know what's more difficult? Establishing a healthy relationship when you're already rutted into an unhealthy one.
I'll also repeat what others have said: I speak from experience. I started a relationship with now-wife not four months after getting out of a long-term relationship that was, as far as I can tell, an order of magnitude better than yours but still pretty shitty (ex-gf is now happily married as well).
Good luck.
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Spend a few hours on the reddit deadbedrooms forum. That should give you all the clarity you need from people who are 10, 20, 30 years down the road from where you are now.
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Spend a few hours on the reddit deadbedrooms forum. That should give you all the clarity you need from people who are 10, 20, 30 years down the road from where you are now.
Oh yeah trust me, strolled down there. It's one of the more depressing forums out there.
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We went to our 3rd counsoling last night and it was the hardest one so far. We talked about the past, when I had cheated how it made her feel (not chosen-like i literally chose another girl over her) and when we had seperated a few years later and how she had felt uncommited to/unwanted until I came back. We've established a cycle of "I don't know what I want until it's gone" on those 2 occasions and her having insecurities from not being chosen. We still both believe our point is in the right. She believes if she opens up and initiates sex it will just be to try to get me to getting to engagement. I feel like we need to establish this before engagement. We're both so entrenched in our feelings that it's still not budging anywhich way. We talked about expectations on the vacation and still aren't sure how to take it. She mentioned "why's it always me that gets my heart broken" and that has been true this relationship. I'm trying to rationalize engagement at least to see if we can bring it back-but she just can't get to intamcy without it. There's just too much of a mental block from our past and I respect her for it. It doesn't do any good questioning why or how she feels but rather understanding this is how it has to be for her. It's frustrating. For both of us. And the more we talk about it the harder it gets as it feels like we're both trying to convince eachother of the impossible. We do see a life together and we both want that but how we want that is different. HOWEVER- this morning at work she did text me that she had a sassy dream involving us last night which she didn't expect at all based on how our conversations have gone so.....Idk, maybe we can explore that a bit more? It's a step in the right direction out of nowhere.
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We went to our 3rd counsoling last night and it was the hardest one so far. We talked about the past, when I had cheated how it made her feel (not chosen-like i literally chose another girl over her) and when we had seperated a few years later and how she had felt uncommited to/unwanted until I came back. We've established a cycle of "I don't know what I want until it's gone" on those 2 occasions and her having insecurities from not being chosen. We still both believe our point is in the right. She believes if she opens up and initiates sex it will just be to try to get me to getting to engagement. I feel like we need to establish this before engagement. We're both so entrenched in our feelings that it's still not budging anywhich way. We talked about expectations on the vacation and still aren't sure how to take it. She mentioned "why's it always me that gets my heart broken" and that has been true this relationship. I'm trying to rationalize engagement at least to see if we can bring it back-but she just can't get to intamcy without it. There's just too much of a mental block from our past and I respect her for it. It doesn't do any good questioning why or how she feels but rather understanding this is how it has to be for her.
This is extremely, extremely troubling.
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We went to our 3rd counsoling last night and it was the hardest one so far. We talked about the past, when I had cheated how it made her feel (not chosen-like i literally chose another girl over her) and when we had seperated a few years later and how she had felt uncommited to/unwanted until I came back. We've established a cycle of "I don't know what I want until it's gone" on those 2 occasions and her having insecurities from not being chosen. We still both believe our point is in the right. She believes if she opens up and initiates sex it will just be to try to get me to getting to engagement. I feel like we need to establish this before engagement. We're both so entrenched in our feelings that it's still not budging anywhich way. We talked about expectations on the vacation and still aren't sure how to take it. She mentioned "why's it always me that gets my heart broken" and that has been true this relationship. I'm trying to rationalize engagement at least to see if we can bring it back-but she just can't get to intamcy without it. There's just too much of a mental block from our past and I respect her for it. It doesn't do any good questioning why or how she feels but rather understanding this is how it has to be for her.
This is extremely, extremely troubling.
It's honest, I mean she literally can't make herself want to feel like opening up without that sense of commitment. It's how her mind is wired due to our past and It's not something I can just make points against to change. She said she could do it but she feels like she'd be forcing it and not wanting to if she didn't have the promise, security and devotion that enagagment provides.
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What, if anything, has the counselor suggested as possible ways to work through this impasse?
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What, if anything, has the counselor suggested as possible ways to work through this impasse?
Nothing really. I mean we have 3 options. Work on sex life. Get engaged/work on sex life. Break up. She can't do the first without the second. I still don't think I can do the second without the first. I'm not sure-I feel like i'm lying to her and i've told her that. It really does beg the question though-is it worth it for me to risk it to gain our relationship and try to win it back? In her mind if I don't propose we haven't tried everything we could. There could be regret from that. But I would also regret lying in that I planned on mairraige without knowing our sexual life by engaging in engagement. Like what would I regret more? I can't really know unless I try
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We went to our 3rd counsoling last night and it was the hardest one so far. We talked about the past, when I had cheated how it made her feel (not chosen-like i literally chose another girl over her) and when we had seperated a few years later and how she had felt uncommited to/unwanted until I came back. We've established a cycle of "I don't know what I want until it's gone" on those 2 occasions and her having insecurities from not being chosen. We still both believe our point is in the right. She believes if she opens up and initiates sex it will just be to try to get me to getting to engagement. I feel like we need to establish this before engagement. We're both so entrenched in our feelings that it's still not budging anywhich way. We talked about expectations on the vacation and still aren't sure how to take it. She mentioned "why's it always me that gets my heart broken" and that has been true this relationship. I'm trying to rationalize engagement at least to see if we can bring it back-but she just can't get to intamcy without it. There's just too much of a mental block from our past and I respect her for it. It doesn't do any good questioning why or how she feels but rather understanding this is how it has to be for her.
This is extremely, extremely troubling.
It's honest, I mean she literally can't make herself want to feel like opening up without that sense of commitment. It's how her mind is wired due to our past and It's not something I can just make points against to change. She said she could do it but she feels like she'd be forcing it and not wanting to if she didn't have the promise, security and devotion that enagagment provides.
Yes, thankfully she is being honest. She could hide this from you.
But it is still extremely troubling. From a relationship standpoint, it really does not bode well.
She wants to be engaged. She is pinning everything on an idea of how she will feel differently -- differently about YOU -- if she has that.
She doesn't know if she'll feel that way. She thinks everything will change. But she doesn't know.
Honestly, I think it's extremely unlikely a switch will flip and her libido will turn on and engage once there is a ring on her finger. And if she doesn't feel the trust, security, and devotion from you now, a ring isn't gonna be a permanent solution.
My guess? If you propose to her, there might be a little "honeymoon" period where she feels temporarily better. But then her brain will realize that a ring and some words really don't change much. Engaged people cheat. Married people cheat. And then, little by little, she'll start to feel less confident, as she realizes that she's been hanging all her beliefs on something that isn't magic. And she'll be back to where she started.
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All I see after reading this whole thread is option number 3. Break up. You both will be so much happier. I promise. I was in a very unhappy relationship for almost two years, and it was SO MUCH WORK. We also had intimacy issues (he was basically uninterested). We both loved each other, dearly, and thought that was enough to keep the relationship alive, but it wasn't/isn't. Our conflicts were big, and never led to any resolution. We would pretend our huge misalignments weren't there to keep the relationship going along for another few months, and then it would come to light and we would realize again how poor of a match we were. I couldn't imagine life without him...then I broke up with him, and faced life without him, and it was SO MUCH BETTER. I felt lighter, happier, more free, and the idea of someday having a happy relationship with someone who was aligned with me just made me giddy. I couldn't possibly have seen it when I was in the thick of the relationship, but literally within a week of breaking up I was like...why didn't I do this a year ago? I encourage you to really truly decide if all of this counseling (that doesn't seem to be leading anywhere) and all of these discussions/issues are things you want to deal with for the rest of your life with this person...because people don't change. They don't. If you are committed to marrying her exactly how she is, no sex, no trust, then go ahead...it will probably be like that forever. But, life could be so much better, I promise. I'm still single now, and my life on my own is SO much better than it ever was even in the happiest times in my last relationship.
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Honestly, when I read this I see what most of the other replies see: two young people without many relationship reps who haven't yet learned that the worst breakups aren't the angry screaming ones, they're the bittersweet ones where things are 90% great but deep friendship and mutual affection are now just obscuring the fact that the romantic spark is dead and gone. Been there a couple times, and both times I was the last to be convinced of it. It SUCKS, which is why it can be so very tempting to avoid accepting the truth.
But I'm also a bit baffled how this didn't come to a head after a year or two. On some level I admire your (mutual) fortitude, but mostly I see missed opportunities for learning and growth. People have correctly highlighted the concept of sunk costs, but opportunity costs also need to be considered here. If you both had squarely faced this situation 6 years ago you'd either have a much deeper and more satisfying relationship or you'd have 6 additional (prime!) years to date and love and learn and grow.
I don't think either of you are learning the things you need to learn and growing the way you need to grow while in this relationship.
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I've been reading along, trying to put my finger on what's bothering me here, and I think it's that she's relying on your actions to regulate her feelings, in a way. For reference, I am OLD, and have been married for over 20 years.
Something about "if you do X, I'll feel Y" is putting far too much responsibility on you for something that's ultimately hers to control, or not. But it's definitely not your responsibility, and it's an unhealthy relationship dynamic to establish.
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Hmmm, so what happens if you get engaged and the sex doesn't change?
That's what she believes will change her mindset and willingness to open up physically again. She set that standard in her mind and I respect it. That being said-that's the main concern of my stress. Like the what if we can't regain that connection? She wants to move forward and believes we can establish it and work through anything but I believe it's something we should work on prior. That makes her feel not committed to and cycle repeats ha
I didn't respond to this the other day because I already said what I had to say, but I keep coming back to this. You're working with a therapist (which I am not), but this is where my mind goes: When I lose weight, everything will be better. When my boyfriend gives me a ring, everything will be better. When we move houses, everything will be better. The problem is, on its own, the ring, the new location, the weight loss; they don't change the problems outside of the particular issue they are solving. A ring may change things in the beginning, but if it isn't enough of a catalyst for her to ACTIVELY change, it won't. Her desire to change has to be great and the ring will lose its newness in time.
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We went to our 3rd counsoling last night and it was the hardest one so far. We talked about the past, when I had cheated how it made her feel (not chosen-like i literally chose another girl over her) and when we had seperated a few years later and how she had felt uncommited to/unwanted until I came back. We've established a cycle of "I don't know what I want until it's gone" on those 2 occasions and her having insecurities from not being chosen. We still both believe our point is in the right. She believes if she opens up and initiates sex it will just be to try to get me to getting to engagement. I feel like we need to establish this before engagement. We're both so entrenched in our feelings that it's still not budging anywhich way. We talked about expectations on the vacation and still aren't sure how to take it. She mentioned "why's it always me that gets my heart broken" and that has been true this relationship. I'm trying to rationalize engagement at least to see if we can bring it back-but she just can't get to intamcy without it. There's just too much of a mental block from our past and I respect her for it. It doesn't do any good questioning why or how she feels but rather understanding this is how it has to be for her.
This is extremely, extremely troubling.
It's honest, I mean she literally can't make herself want to feel like opening up without that sense of commitment. It's how her mind is wired due to our past and It's not something I can just make points against to change. She said she could do it but she feels like she'd be forcing it and not wanting to if she didn't have the promise, security and devotion that enagagment provides.
Yes, thankfully she is being honest. She could hide this from you.
But it is still extremely troubling. From a relationship standpoint, it really does not bode well.
She wants to be engaged. She is pinning everything on an idea of how she will feel differently -- differently about YOU -- if she has that.
She doesn't know if she'll feel that way. She thinks everything will change. But she doesn't know.
Honestly, I think it's extremely unlikely a switch will flip and her libido will turn on and engage once there is a ring on her finger. And if she doesn't feel the trust, security, and devotion from you now, a ring isn't gonna be a permanent solution.
My guess? If you propose to her, there might be a little "honeymoon" period where she feels temporarily better. But then her brain will realize that a ring and some words really don't change much. Engaged people cheat. Married people cheat. And then, little by little, she'll start to feel less confident, as she realizes that she's been hanging all her beliefs on something that isn't magic. And she'll be back to where she started.
Also, I think in the end she wants something from OP that OP can't give. She wants OP to want to get engaged/married, even without the sex. Even if OP proposes at this point, she'll always suspect that it was just to get things moving on the sex side, and that doesn't fulfill her need* to feel "chosen" and loved "unconditionally**".
[* whether it's a realistic need is irrelevant in this scenario]
[** obviously truly unconditional love is unrealistic and would invite abuse, but I don't think that's what most people mean when they say/think this. We can no doubt debate endlessly about what this really means, but in the end what matters is that it's something more than what OP can offer her at the moment.]
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Just wanted to chime in with a small note regarding the "unconditional love" discussion. I don't think unconditional love is what allows someone to take advantage of you, I think it's a lack of boundaries.
Unconditional Love vs Loving Without Boundaries (https://live-happier.com/unconditional-love-vs-loving-without-boundaries/)
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I've been reading along, trying to put my finger on what's bothering me here, and I think it's that she's relying on your actions to regulate her feelings, in a way. For reference, I am OLD, and have been married for over 20 years.
Something about "if you do X, I'll feel Y" is putting far too much responsibility on you for something that's ultimately hers to control, or not. But it's definitely not your responsibility, and it's an unhealthy relationship dynamic to establish.
This is dead on, imo.
I think she's set up an unsolvable ultimatum. She knows you don't want to get engaged/married yet, so that's become the bar you need to cross to get a sexual relationship going, knowing that it probably won't happen. So she's convinced you that if you don't propose, you haven't tried everything, and not having a sexual relationship becomes your fault. When in reality, you don't have a sexual relationship because she is not interested in one. The reasons why she's not interested are not really relevant, since they are not things you can act on... You can't go back in time and not cheat on her, and you can't force her to trust you if she doesn't.
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All the angsting, analyzing, justifying, excuse-making, hoping, ultimatums, etc. drama that you/she are engaged in will never result in a happy ending with each other.
I know a guy who was married to an asexual woman. She wouldn't deal with it; he cheated out of sexual frustration; they divorced. The end.
Find someone else that you are compatible with.
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I think that many of these replies are overly harsh, even if I don't exactly disagree with their recommendations.
All I see here is sadness. I'm of the opinion that no one should even consider getting married until they hit at least 30, and that your 20s should be spent figuring out what kind of person you most want to spend your life with. What I see here is people who haven't figured it out, trying to jump in too early, and thus setting themselves up for divorce.
But love blinds you in all kinds of different ways. If I may for a moment offer you one of the hardest love lessons I had to learn, it's that if you have doubts now then things are only going to get worse. Marriage is hard and children only make it worse, and you need to have a rock solid foundation built before you try to go adding all that froofery on top of it. In every case when I debated with myself whether my ongoing relationship struggles were normal growing pains or a sign of impending doom, it was the doom. Always the doom.
Who you marry is probably the single most important decision you will make in your life, and should be considered with the same sort of cautious deliberation that you used to approach buying a house, or choosing a college. If you're not absolutely thrilled with your choice, it's not the right choice.
You don't sound thrilled.
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I've been reading along, trying to put my finger on what's bothering me here, and I think it's that she's relying on your actions to regulate her feelings, in a way. For reference, I am OLD, and have been married for over 20 years.
Something about "if you do X, I'll feel Y" is putting far too much responsibility on you for something that's ultimately hers to control, or not. But it's definitely not your responsibility, and it's an unhealthy relationship dynamic to establish.
To be fair she hasn't said she'll feel "y"-she just promised she could try as much as she could as she wants that in a marraige. She has not promised to feel any way and has told me through tears she can't tell me if she'll be able to. It's not my responsibility, but at the same time I'm also in the boat of "if you establish intamcy for a period of time and it is sustainable-i'll feel like i'm ready to advance to engagement" scenario.
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We went to our 3rd counsoling last night and it was the hardest one so far. We talked about the past, when I had cheated how it made her feel (not chosen-like i literally chose another girl over her) and when we had seperated a few years later and how she had felt uncommited to/unwanted until I came back. We've established a cycle of "I don't know what I want until it's gone" on those 2 occasions and her having insecurities from not being chosen. We still both believe our point is in the right. She believes if she opens up and initiates sex it will just be to try to get me to getting to engagement. I feel like we need to establish this before engagement. We're both so entrenched in our feelings that it's still not budging anywhich way. We talked about expectations on the vacation and still aren't sure how to take it. She mentioned "why's it always me that gets my heart broken" and that has been true this relationship. I'm trying to rationalize engagement at least to see if we can bring it back-but she just can't get to intamcy without it. There's just too much of a mental block from our past and I respect her for it. It doesn't do any good questioning why or how she feels but rather understanding this is how it has to be for her.
This is extremely, extremely troubling.
It's honest, I mean she literally can't make herself want to feel like opening up without that sense of commitment. It's how her mind is wired due to our past and It's not something I can just make points against to change. She said she could do it but she feels like she'd be forcing it and not wanting to if she didn't have the promise, security and devotion that enagagment provides.
Yes, thankfully she is being honest. She could hide this from you.
But it is still extremely troubling. From a relationship standpoint, it really does not bode well.
She wants to be engaged. She is pinning everything on an idea of how she will feel differently -- differently about YOU -- if she has that.
She doesn't know if she'll feel that way. She thinks everything will change. But she doesn't know.
Honestly, I think it's extremely unlikely a switch will flip and her libido will turn on and engage once there is a ring on her finger. And if she doesn't feel the trust, security, and devotion from you now, a ring isn't gonna be a permanent solution.
My guess? If you propose to her, there might be a little "honeymoon" period where she feels temporarily better. But then her brain will realize that a ring and some words really don't change much. Engaged people cheat. Married people cheat. And then, little by little, she'll start to feel less confident, as she realizes that she's been hanging all her beliefs on something that isn't magic. And she'll be back to where she started.
Also, I think in the end she wants something from OP that OP can't give. She wants OP to want to get engaged/married, even without the sex. Even if OP proposes at this point, she'll always suspect that it was just to get things moving on the sex side, and that doesn't fulfill her need* to feel "chosen" and loved "unconditionally**".
[* whether it's a realistic need is irrelevant in this scenario]
[** obviously truly unconditional love is unrealistic and would invite abuse, but I don't think that's what most people mean when they say/think this. We can no doubt debate endlessly about what this really means, but in the end what matters is that it's something more than what OP can offer her at the moment.]
She doesn't understand why I can't give it though. I've told her I could, but it'd be lying. We're both so entrenched on what we deem is the right course of action that we can't settle halfway on our mindsets here. I've told her even if i were to propose right now, I still would not want to be married unless our relationship was fixed. She understands that but doesn't understand how I can't commit when the only other alternative is breaking up. She wants this to work, I want this this to work, but something has to give either way.
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I've been considering saying somethign along the following.
I am a sexual person and it is not in my best interest to advance a relationship without that. You say you need engagement to feel 100% commited to. I need constant sex to feel committed to you. Either our relationship becomes sexual and we have an outstanding sex life, or we should seperate. Our sex life has to stay outstanding for a long period of time before I will consider advancing our relationship. I hope we can work through this but I know you feel like we've done all we can do.
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I've been considering saying somethign along the following.
I am a sexual person and it is not in my best interest to advance a relationship without that. You say you need engagement to feel 100% commited to. I need constant sex to feel committed to you. Either our relationship becomes sexual and we have an outstanding sex life, or we should seperate. Our sex life has to stay outstanding for a long period of time before I will consider advancing our relationship. I hope we can work through this but I know you feel like we've done all we can do.
I think that's a terrible idea. Please don't, unless this is just a really bad "I'm dumping you" speech. At the very least, you would need to soften your language.
You can't demand "constant sex" and "an outstanding sex life" from anyone, because these things take two to tango and if she's not into it then you're not holding up your end of the bargain. That's just how sex works. It's never about one person. If you insist on laying down ultimatums of your own, you should probably talk about your desires for "sexual intimacy" or "sexual fulfillment" or even "a mutually satisfactory sex life" instead of saying "you need to give me constant sex all the time or I'm going to leave you." That's a dick move.
Married people get very good at discussing these things (and all things) as shared problems that WE need to work on, together, not something one person needs to change or the other one bolts. There is no bolting in a marriage. You're on the same team, and every one of her problems becomes a shared problem for the both of you. In a healthy marriage, every problem becomes a team effort.
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I've been considering saying somethign along the following.
I am a sexual person and it is not in my best interest to advance a relationship without that. You say you need engagement to feel 100% commited to. I need constant sex to feel committed to you. Either our relationship becomes sexual and we have an outstanding sex life, or we should seperate. Our sex life has to stay outstanding for a long period of time before I will consider advancing our relationship. I hope we can work through this but I know you feel like we've done all we can do.
I think that's a terrible idea. Please don't, unless this is just a really bad "I'm dumping you" speech. At the very least, you would need to soften your language.
You can't demand "constant sex" and "an outstanding sex life" from anyone, because these things take two to tango and if she's not into it then you're not holding up your end of the bargain. That's just how sex works. It's never about one person. If you insist on laying down ultimatums of your own, you should probably talk about your desires for "sexual intimacy" or "sexual fulfillment" or even "a mutually satisfactory sex life" instead of saying "you need to give me constant sex all the time or I'm going to leave you." That's a dick move.
Married people get very good at discussing these things (and all things) as shared problems that WE need to work on, together, not something one person needs to change or the other one bolts. There is no bolting in a marriage. You're on the same team, and every one of her problems becomes a shared problem for the both of you. In a healthy marriage, every problem becomes a team effort.
I might agree with you, if he were already married. But he's not. Right now, it's best to state your needs up front, with clarity before even considering a big giant step like getting engaged/married.
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Ultimatums are rarely a good idea.
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Indeed, yes, but this really sounds like a fundamental difference in how they each view the importance of sex in a relationship.
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She's given me one in the terms of if we don't get engaged soon she doesn't want to continue this (based on how long it's been/how long she's been thinking of marraige). That's the very rough terminology and wording, and it would involve more of a mutually compatible but still sustainable sex life that we could both enjoy but that's the rough draft. She may very well say I'm giving up by not getting engaged and at least trying to make it work but my morale will not let me promise that when I am not getting married without a sexual relationship. I've done it for years and it's made me realize I can not just compartmentalize and ignore my own needs. She wants to "move" forward but the only way she sees that is engagement/prior to her trying to establish our sex life. I'm at a loss for how else to approach this.
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I'm at a loss for how else to approach this.
It's long past time to kick her to the curb and put zoochadookdook back on the meat market. Whether you believe it or not, you can meet another person who you will fall even more in love with than the current SO. And you will come to realize that current SO was not the love of your life, but rather an important relationship at some time in your past that you will cherish but be ever so thankful that you did not marry.
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I'm at a loss for how else to approach this.
It's long past time to kick her to the curb and put zoochadookdook back on the meat market. Whether you believe it or not, you can meet another person who you will fall even more in love with than the current SO. And you will come to realize that current SO was not the love of your life, but rather an important relationship at some time in your past that you will cherish but be ever so thankful that you did not marry.
Lol i'm not kicking her to the curb. She's awesome. Our house awesome. We love eachother. If we seperate because we get through this i'd still let her stay as long as she needed to make other plans/sort out everything. It'd suck but I'd still love her.
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I'm at a loss for how else to approach this.
It's long past time to kick her to the curb and put zoochadookdook back on the meat market. Whether you believe it or not, you can meet another person who you will fall even more in love with than the current SO. And you will come to realize that current SO was not the love of your life, but rather an important relationship at some time in your past that you will cherish but be ever so thankful that you did not marry.
Lol i'm not kicking her to the curb. She's awesome. Our house awesome. We love eachother. If we seperate because we get through this i'd still let her stay as long as she needed to make other plans/sort out everything. It'd suck but I'd still love her.
I should have specified "metaphorically". So, not in the sense that you don't appreciate her as a person, but in the sense she is not THE ONE for you, and hence any more time that you spend with her in a relationship is preventing you from meeting someone who fulfills you. A lot of us on this board are rooting for your happiness, which is probably hard to comprehend when we are telling you to let go of someone that makes you happy on many levels, but you will have to take that leap of faith if you want a happy lifelong partner. As Sol stated so eloquently, if you are not totally thrilled to be with her in just about every respect, she is probably not the best fit to be your partner for the next 50+ years.
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I'm at a loss for how else to approach this.
It's long past time to kick her to the curb and put zoochadookdook back on the meat market. Whether you believe it or not, you can meet another person who you will fall even more in love with than the current SO. And you will come to realize that current SO was not the love of your life, but rather an important relationship at some time in your past that you will cherish but be ever so thankful that you did not marry.
Lol i'm not kicking her to the curb. She's awesome. Our house awesome. We love eachother. If we seperate because we get through this i'd still let her stay as long as she needed to make other plans/sort out everything. It'd suck but I'd still love her.
I should have specified "metaphorically". So, not in the sense that you don't appreciate her as a person, but in the sense she is not THE ONE for you, and hence any more time that you spend with her in a relationship is preventing you from meeting someone who fulfills you. A lot of us on this board are rooting for your happiness, which is probably hard to comprehend when we are telling you to let go of someone that makes you happy on many levels, but you will have to take that leap of faith if you want a happy lifelong partner. As Sol stated so eloquently, if you are not totally thrilled to be with her in just about every respect, she is probably not the best fit to be your partner for the next 50+ years.
Sure! I'm certain I'll think back on this months/years from now regardless of where I end up and view it as a "why was I so concerned or I regret that" sort of decision but either way something will change. Marriage may never be for me, but currently speaking she'd be the only one I'd consider it with. I've thought about our life and it'd be pretty cushy but not if we can't reestablish our relationship. I'm exhausting those efforts first and if we can't work anything out it is time to move on.
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My wife and I cheated on eachother while we were dating. We broke-up for a couple years, got back together, dated for two years, were engaged for a year and have been married for going on 7 years. Getting over infidelity is hard. It requires you both to forgive each other and, to a certain extent, forget. You both have to be willing to let your guard down and that blind, "dumb trust" to return.
What, if anything, has the counselor suggested as possible ways to work through this impasse?
Nothing really. I mean we have 3 options. Work on sex life. Get engaged/work on sex life. Break up. She can't do the first without the second. I still don't think I can do the second without the first. I'm not sure-I feel like i'm lying to her and i've told her that. It really does beg the question though-is it worth it for me to risk it to gain our relationship and try to win it back? In her mind if I don't propose we haven't tried everything we could. There could be regret from that. But I would also regret lying in that I planned on mairraige without knowing our sexual life by engaging in engagement. Like what would I regret more? I can't really know unless I try
The problem is not the sex life. It is a symptom of no trust. You need to talk to each other about the cheating. She needs to understand why you did it, why it's not going to happen again, and why you are smitten with her. If you two cannot work that out, then you have no business getting married in the first place.
This needs to happen when you are dating. You are going to have and "engagement-moon" then engagement is going to bring on a lot of other stressors (planning a wedding, friends and family expectations, money, etc.) and the engagement won't be about fixing this fundamental issue.
I've been considering saying somethign along the following.
I am a sexual person and it is not in my best interest to advance a relationship without that. You say you need engagement to feel 100% commited to. I need constant sex to feel committed to you. Either our relationship becomes sexual and we have an outstanding sex life, or we should seperate. Our sex life has to stay outstanding for a long period of time before I will consider advancing our relationship. I hope we can work through this but I know you feel like we've done all we can do.
Sol is right, this isn't how sex works in a mature relationship, but at least you are communicating what is important to you.
She doesn't trust you and can't open up physically, and you waited until you were confronted with a life of celibacy to say something. You were both happy to live together as BFFs in the meantime. You are in this whole catch 22 because you both don't know how to communicate and have been sweeping your issues under the rug rather than dealing with them.
Communication is something you are supposed to figure out when you are dating not when you are engaged to get married.
To be really honest with you. You have spent the majority of your adult lives together reinforcing bad habits. Your peers have had a lot more practice and experience cycling through relationships to find what works. I think both of you have a lot of growing to do and you grow the fastest when you change the paradigm and learn from new people.
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Have you considered taking a break from the relationship and from each other? Not necessarily a full-on breakup, but time apart. I think some distance and time alone could give you both some much-needed perspective.
When I was at a frustrating impasse with my relationship when I wanted to move forward already and he wasn’t ready, I took a temporary job assignment in another state. We didn’t break up, but we were long distance for a while. I needed that distance to be alone and process. My hope was that time apart would make him realize what he had and what he wanted. I believe now that it is important for people to develop individually to be whole when they come together in a relationship.
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Let me just point out an obvious and important fact that isn't getting enough attention in this thread:
Her need isn't to marry you, her need is to have you *want* to marry her so that she can feel "chosen" by you.
That is a TERRIBLE reason to marry someone.
This isn't about her consuming need to commit *to you*, it's about her consuming insecurity about you seeming to not want to commit *to her*. This is about her identity and self worth.
I won't go into too many details, but I've been in her position at the same age, with similar but markedly different circumstances.
Do you know what was much worse than not feeling secure in my relationship?
Not feeling secure in my engagement and future marriage either.
Sure, for a few weeks I was blissfully elated and preoccupied myself staring at a big shiny ring, but eventually and insidiously, the doubt and resentment about how hard it had been to get him to propose poisoned that happiness.
You cannot make her feel secure, you don't actually have that power, it's simply not something that you can give her, even if you wanted to.
Let me leave you with a chilling fact that hopefully sinks deep into your psyche after you read it:
I deeply admire and respect my ex fiance for leaving me and not going through with the wedding, even though I hated him for a long time. He's an anxious and hesitant person in general, and to this day, I don't know where he found the balls to actually call off a fully planned wedding, but I am eternally grateful to him for doing it.
Now that I'm very happily married and know what I would have been missing, I know how much I owe him, and I actually love him in a way for what he did.
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Malkynn is wise.
I don't have a horse in this race. But...my next door neighbors moved in 7 years ago after buying the house (foreclosure). They'd been living together for about 7 years, were in their early 30's I think. I remember having some conversations with them when they first moved in (we had a new baby, I was sleep deprived). The guy says "I guess we should probably get married eventually, eh?"
Well, they did. A year later. Only a few months after that, she left to go do yoga in Africa. And...never came back. Or at least came back to get her stuff and take half the house. After years of pushing him to commit, he committed, and she bailed.
Sometimes, if it doesn't feel right, it isn't.
OTOH, everyone goes through ups and downs in their relationships. Sometimes you can work through them, sometimes you can't.
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Not sure how deep you went in therapy, but it sounds to me like she may be someone with a trauma history. Not easy to work through, and she may not even realize it. Might be worth delving into if you really, want to try to salvage things.
Possible, I suppose, but these are two people in their mid-twenties who've been together since they were 18 and were sexually active together at the start of the relationship. OP's girlfriend seems to consider OP's affair to have been the "trauma history". Her being demi-sexual seems to me the more likely answer from that history, and that is not a cause for therapy, just being on a different sexual spectrum from OP.
Most 18 year old girls whose boyfriend of a few months cheated on them would dump his ass and move on, maybe by redefining their relationship as the friendship it obviously is rather than trying to fake a romantic relationship for all these years, and both would probably have been happier for it.
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The more this goes on the more dysfunctional it sounds. By setting up this ultimatum, she's made it impossible to "win" this game. At this point, she can't trust you if you do propose, and there's no advancement if you don't. It's immature and she should know that there's no ring or paper that prevents people from cheating. You do or you don't, she either trusts you or she doesn't. This relationship was probably over when you got back together, if not after the next break, and by now, way past due. The sooner you can internalize that, the sooner you can move forward with your life.
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Yeah, I agree with everyone else.
If you do choose to get married, you might end up celibate "til death do you part." Will that be worth it?
To me it sounds like you are both clinging to a teenage-era relationship like a security blanket. It's cozy, you know each other well, you have a shared history. But at the core of the relationship is this gaping chasm of incompatibility, with no guarantee that it will ever improve.
You are still young. If you free yourselves now, you both have plenty of time to marry other people and have kids (if that is what you/she eventually want). But the longer you drag this out, the more of your life is being spent on this stalemate relationship, and the less of it on whatever is coming next.
Breaking up will be sad. But eventually you will find new rituals and comforts. Let the relationship be a fond memory, not an anchor dragging you down for life.
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I agree with everyone else. You need to break up. The lack of sex is a symptom of something fundamentally wrong with the relationship and if you were to get married it would make everything about 1000x worse.
Breakups are tough and a first ever breakup is the toughest of all. But you just have to rip off that band aid, mourn the loss of the relationship and move on. As a veteran of many breakups, I recommend breaking up and then not speaking or interacting in any way with your girlfriend for a minimum of 4-6 months. If you need to pick up things from each other's apartments, send a friend or relative to do it. After that time has passed, you won't care so much anymore and you'll have moved on to some extent. After that, you can speak if you see each other on the street or at a social event - if you both feel like it. The really bad breakups that I've experienced have been the ones where I continued to interact with the guy for whatever reason. It might feel good at the time but it just prolongs the agony.
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Ok, I havem't read everything here, but a good part of the first half. I can relate to your GF, so I can feel I can say this.
1. She needs you to be a different person, and deep down she knows this.
2. You are not a different person, you are you.
3. You would both be happier with different people.
4. The ship has sailed on this relationship, if there was ever a chance to board in the first place. She will never get the feeling she wants from you, because it needed to come towards the beginning. Too much time has passed.
You are putting way too much work into this trying to make it work. You haven't even gotten into the nitty gritty of life yet, and you're spinning your wheels just trying to get it started. Cut your losses. It's a lost cause.
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Ok, I havem't read everything here, but a good part of the first half. I can relate to your GF, so I can feel I can say this.
1. She needs you to be a different person, and deep down she knows this.
2. You are not a different person, you are you.
3. You would both be happier with different people.
4. The ship has sailed on this relationship, if there was ever a chance to board in the first place. She will never get the feeling she wants from you, because it needed to come towards the beginning. Too much time has passed.
You are putting way too much work into this trying to make it work. You haven't even gotten into the nitty gritty of life yet, and you're spinning your wheels just trying to get it started. Cut your losses. It's a lost cause.
Oh yes. OP this thread is sad. It seems you are valiantly flogging a relationship that is not a solid romantic partnership. It makes me sad to see someone so young so entrenched in seemingly adult responsibilities. It is as though you two are playing Grown Up.
Have you noticed that in all of the posts on this thread no one has chastised you for “cheating” ? You know why that is? It's because you were 19 years old. That is a time where we explore our sexuality and different partners. I wouldn’t call that cheating as much as dating around.
Please for the love of God cut this girl loose for her own good and for your good.
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So talking last night went in circles.
I said I cant get engaged without some sort of sexual relationship established. I said I cant get engaged promising mairraige when I'm not in 100%. I tried to make the points that things wont change if we do get engaged and if she cant trust me now it wont be different then. If she is demi sexual it possibly could work but.......
She said she's waiting til engagement to open up like that. It's just not possible for her to open up before so how is she supposed to do what I want before getting engaged. It feels like a slap of rejection of her that I dont want to and emotionally she's tired and sad because she feels unwanted. She knows she wants to marry and spend the rest of her life with me but she needs to get engaged to really try to make the rest work. She says she does trust me, she does love me, she feels cherished, but she mentally needs this commitment of moving forward to be able to move forward.
It really is a conundrum. She sees it as I either want to move forward or I don't. There's no other way to move forward to her vs getting engaged. Anything other than that feels like rejection and causes her to withdraw.
She has said early on changed her and she feels like I want that young her back which she cant be like that. She feels inadequate and doesnt understand why I cant just love her and commit as is. It's not like that though-i do love her. She even read some low/high libido articles last night with me and was like we could do these things.
She wants so badly to make it work and doesn't get why I can't make myself propose. I feel like I cant propose because I'm not 100%. We have a life together and she's been living with me since I moved here. She's had marriage in her mind for the last 5+years.
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So talking last night went in circles.
I said I cant get engaged without some sort of sexual relationship established. I said I cant get engaged promising mairraige when I'm not in 100%. I tried to make the points that things wont change if we do get engaged and if she cant trust me now it wont be different then. If she is demi sexual it possibly could work but.......
She said she's waiting til engagement to open up like that. It's just not possible for her to open up before so how is she supposed to do what I want before getting engaged. It feels like a slap of rejection of her that I dont want to and emotionally she's tired and sad because she feels unwanted. She knows she wants to marry and spend the rest of her life with me but she needs to get engaged to really try to make the rest work. She says she does trust me, she does love me, she feels cherished, but she mentally needs this commitment of moving forward to be able to move forward.
It really is a conundrum. She sees it as I either want to move forward or I don't. There's no other way to move forward to her vs getting engaged. Anything other than that feels like rejection and causes her to withdraw.
She has said early on changed her and she feels like I want that young her back which she cant be like that. She feels inadequate and doesnt understand why I cant just love her and commit as is. It's not like that though-i do love her. She even read some low/high libido articles last night with me and was like we could do these things.
She wants so badly to make it work and doesn't get why I can't make myself propose. I feel like I cant propose because I'm not 100%. We have a life together and she's been living with me since I moved here. She's had marriage in her mind for the last 5+years.
She is withholding from you. But expecting you to commit fully 100% to her.
This is BS. Break up with her.
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I agree with everyone else. You need to break up. The lack of sex is a symptom of something fundamentally wrong with the relationship and if you were to get married it would make everything about 1000x worse.
Breakups are tough and a first ever breakup is the toughest of all. But you just have to rip off that band aid, mourn the loss of the relationship and move on. As a veteran of many breakups, I recommend breaking up and then not speaking or interacting in any way with your girlfriend for a minimum of 4-6 months. If you need to pick up things from each other's apartments, send a friend or relative to do it. After that time has passed, you won't care so much anymore and you'll have moved on to some extent. After that, you can speak if you see each other on the street or at a social event - if you both feel like it. The really bad breakups that I've experienced have been the ones where I continued to interact with the guy for whatever reason. It might feel good at the time but it just prolongs the agony.
She sees it as something to look forward to not something that's an issue. And me not wanting to get engaged makes her withdrawal and feel less wanted.
A break up would suck but I'd still want to be friends. She owns over half the furniture in my house/we have dogs together. I love this girl and couldn't just kick her out.
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So talking last night went in circles.
I said I cant get engaged without some sort of sexual relationship established. I said I cant get engaged promising mairraige when I'm not in 100%. I tried to make the points that things wont change if we do get engaged and if she cant trust me now it wont be different then. If she is demi sexual it possibly could work but.......
She said she's waiting til engagement to open up like that. It's just not possible for her to open up before so how is she supposed to do what I want before getting engaged. It feels like a slap of rejection of her that I dont want to and emotionally she's tired and sad because she feels unwanted. She knows she wants to marry and spend the rest of her life with me but she needs to get engaged to really try to make the rest work. She says she does trust me, she does love me, she feels cherished, but she mentally needs this commitment of moving forward to be able to move forward.
It really is a conundrum. She sees it as I either want to move forward or I don't. There's no other way to move forward to her vs getting engaged. Anything other than that feels like rejection and causes her to withdraw.
She has said early on changed her and she feels like I want that young her back which she cant be like that. She feels inadequate and doesnt understand why I cant just love her and commit as is. It's not like that though-i do love her. She even read some low/high libido articles last night with me and was like we could do these things.
She wants so badly to make it work and doesn't get why I can't make myself propose. I feel like I cant propose because I'm not 100%. We have a life together and she's been living with me since I moved here. She's had marriage in her mind for the last 5+years.
She is withholding from you. But expecting you to commit fully 100% to her.
This is BS. Break up with her.
I mean she's not required to have sex/feel that way towards me; and if she is demi sexual she can't unless she feels what she determines is that catalyst of a emotional connection (moving forward to engagement). I've asked her is a engagement where I'm not 100% is to mairraige would mean the same to her and she said yes it's what she wants.
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So talking last night went in circles.
I said I cant get engaged without some sort of sexual relationship established. I said I cant get engaged promising mairraige when I'm not in 100%. I tried to make the points that things wont change if we do get engaged and if she cant trust me now it wont be different then.
She said she's waiting til engagement to open up like that. It's just not possible for her to open up before so how is she supposed to do what I want before getting engaged. It feels like a slap of rejection of her that I dont want to and emotionally she's tired and sad because she feels unwanted. She knows she wants to marry and spend the rest of her life with me but she needs to get engaged to really try to make the rest work.
It really is a conundrum. She sees it as I either want to move forward or I don't. There's no other way to move forward to her vs getting engaged. Anything other than that feels like rejection and causes her to withdraw.
It's not a conundrum. It's a decision she is making.
She is making a bad decision.
That's not on you.
You are not happy with the state of your sex life, so you are very reasonably concerned about moving forward in a relationship that *is not* working. That is reasonable.
She has decided to put her emotional well being and self worth in your hands. That is unreasonable, and nonsensical.
It's not a conundrum, it's a young woman who has convinced herself of a series of things that are not reasonable and not rational, and one of you needs to stop this nonsense.
Just because it makes sense to her doesn't mean it makes sense. She doesn't need an engagement ring, she needs to be single and spend some quality time with a good therapist to learn how to not assign her self worth to the actions of others.
I repeat, this is not a conundrum. This is a slow motion bad decision.
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You know, sometimes things just don't work out. And that's OK.
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I agree with everyone else. You need to break up. The lack of sex is a symptom of something fundamentally wrong with the relationship and if you were to get married it would make everything about 1000x worse.
Breakups are tough and a first ever breakup is the toughest of all. But you just have to rip off that band aid, mourn the loss of the relationship and move on. As a veteran of many breakups, I recommend breaking up and then not speaking or interacting in any way with your girlfriend for a minimum of 4-6 months. If you need to pick up things from each other's apartments, send a friend or relative to do it. After that time has passed, you won't care so much anymore and you'll have moved on to some extent. After that, you can speak if you see each other on the street or at a social event - if you both feel like it. The really bad breakups that I've experienced have been the ones where I continued to interact with the guy for whatever reason. It might feel good at the time but it just prolongs the agony.
She sees it as something to look forward to not something that's an issue. And me not wanting to get engaged makes her withdrawal and feel less wanted.
A break up would suck but I'd still want to be friends. She owns over half the furniture in my house/we have dogs together. I love this girl and couldn't just kick her out.
None of that shit matters except for the dogs. Just make sure the dogs are taken care of. Furniture is a throwaway. At your age you shouldn’t be buying furniture anyway that has perceived value. Ikea and hand me downs are perfectly fine. And so what if you have an empty house with little furniture after she leaves? It really does not matter.
You all are the classic case of taking on adult responsibilities when you don’t have the maturity and good decision making power of adults.
Your break up will likely be long and very painful and already you are prolonging the pain by saying 1) you would never kick her out and 2) you want to be friends .
You will need to give her a date by which you have to move out of your house and I’m not talking months I’m talking weeks.
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Why stay in a relationship that isn't working for either of you?
In my 20s, I was in a relationship that wasn't working particularly well, so we decided to move in together. That wasn't going all that well, so he asked me to marry him. We were good friends and the relationship "looked good on paper", but we wanted very different things. I knew that if I said yes, the marriage wouldn't go very well and we would probably have children to "fix" that. So I said "No" and we broke up and moved on.
If you decide to go against everybody's advice and do a trial engagement, you should not invest much in the ring. That is money that will likely be flushed down the drain. If all goes magically well, and you marry and live happily ever after, you can upgrade the ring at the 5 or 10 year anniversary.
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I agree with Malkynn.
And what I really don't understand is why your GF is so desperate to get engaged and married when your relationship has such big flaws. You said that she's been thinking about enagement for 5 years and you are only 25 years old. Is it possible that she's getting pressure from society/her family to have the big engagement and the big poofy white dress? As an old married person, let me tell you that marriage is not about that. It's about compatibility (including sexual compatibility), shared values and a shared commitment.
And why is she saying that she'll be able to 'open up' after engagement when for the last 7 years you've virtually had no sex life? That makes no sense at all.
You seem determined to hold onto this relationship out of guilt or who knows what else. But really listen to all of us and get out. We're not saying "throw her out". We're telling you to break up with her which is perfectly normal thing to do and way less cruel that marrying her if you're not 110% in love with her and ready to spend the rest of your life with her.
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I agree with everyone else. You need to break up. The lack of sex is a symptom of something fundamentally wrong with the relationship and if you were to get married it would make everything about 1000x worse.
Breakups are tough and a first ever breakup is the toughest of all. But you just have to rip off that band aid, mourn the loss of the relationship and move on. As a veteran of many breakups, I recommend breaking up and then not speaking or interacting in any way with your girlfriend for a minimum of 4-6 months. If you need to pick up things from each other's apartments, send a friend or relative to do it. After that time has passed, you won't care so much anymore and you'll have moved on to some extent. After that, you can speak if you see each other on the street or at a social event - if you both feel like it. The really bad breakups that I've experienced have been the ones where I continued to interact with the guy for whatever reason. It might feel good at the time but it just prolongs the agony.
She sees it as something to look forward to not something that's an issue. And me not wanting to get engaged makes her withdrawal and feel less wanted.
A break up would suck but I'd still want to be friends. She owns over half the furniture in my house/we have dogs together. I love this girl and couldn't just kick her out.
None of that shit matters except for the dogs. Just make sure the dogs are taken care of. Furniture is a throwaway. At your age you shouldn’t be buying furniture anyway that has perceived value. Ikea and hand me downs are perfectly fine. And so what if you have an empty house with little furniture after she leaves? It really does not matter.
You all are the classic case of taking on adult responsibilities when you don’t have the maturity and good decision making power of adults.
Your break up will likely be long and very painful and already you are prolonging the pain by saying 1) you would never kick her out and 2) you want to be friends .
You will need to give her a date by which you have to move out of your house and I’m not talking months I’m talking weeks.
Yeah the dogs are like our children. Neither one of us would want the give them up or keep them away from eachother. The younger one is bonded to the older one.
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When my DD was roughly your age she saw a lot of friends drifting/sliding into marriage because they were already living together and starting to talk about joint major purchases like cars and houses. But it was sliding into, not purposely thinking things were wonderful and they wanted that for the rest of their lives. She saw she was also sliding into marriage and realised it was simply forward momentum, no real desire to make things official. She broke up with her boyfriend, moved out and couch surfed for almost a month before she found a new place and a room-mate. A couple of years later she met a guy who was right for her, and they got married last year. He had also had a long-term relationship that was over, so they were both very cautious and made sure things were right at each step before they moved to the next. They were also both a lot more mature when they met than when they had gotten into their previous relationships, which helped a lot - they knew who they were and what they wanted and needed. They are very happy together.
All of us older people here would like to see you and your girl friend happy. It is just that it is highly unlikely that the two of you will be happy together.
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So talking last night went in circles.
I said I cant get engaged without some sort of sexual relationship established. I said I cant get engaged promising mairraige when I'm not in 100%. I tried to make the points that things wont change if we do get engaged and if she cant trust me now it wont be different then.
She said she's waiting til engagement to open up like that. It's just not possible for her to open up before so how is she supposed to do what I want before getting engaged. It feels like a slap of rejection of her that I dont want to and emotionally she's tired and sad because she feels unwanted. She knows she wants to marry and spend the rest of her life with me but she needs to get engaged to really try to make the rest work.
It really is a conundrum. She sees it as I either want to move forward or I don't. There's no other way to move forward to her vs getting engaged. Anything other than that feels like rejection and causes her to withdraw.
It's not a conundrum. It's a decision she is making.
She is making a bad decision.
That's not on you.
You are not happy with the state of your sex life, so you are very reasonably concerned about moving forward in a relationship that *is not* working. That is reasonable.
She has decided to put her emotional well being and self worth in your hands. That is unreasonable, and nonsensical.
It's not a conundrum, it's a young woman who has convinced herself of a series of things that are not reasonable and not rational, and one of you needs to stop this nonsense.
Just because it makes sense to her doesn't mean it makes sense. She doesn't need an engagement ring, she needs to be single and spend some quality time with a good therapist to learn how to not assign her self worth to the actions of others.
I repeat, this is not a conundrum. This is a slow motion bad decision.
Right but she doesn't see it as her decision; she sees it as my decision to either be with her or not and that will make her feel a certain way. She's said if she has sex before then she'll feel like she's just winging it for someone who only might want to get engaged so that's not really an option. She's placed such a high pedestal engagement that it really is to her-my choice. To get to that point maybe I need sex? That's not a option. I said I need more romance and she just breaks down and says she can't be the young kid she used to. So yeah-in her mind I'm either trying to make this work or I'm not via engagement or just bailing and breaking up.
I can see myself with her and she can see herself with me. I do love her 100% I just dont feel the relationship is 100%. To her this is the logical step and that's why my hesitance is wearing on her so hard.
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She's said if she has sex before then she'll feel like she's just winging it for someone who only might want to get engaged so that's not really an option.
Well, you are not someone she has been dating for a short while who only might want to get engaged if she has sex, you are someone who would definitely get engaged if you were sure you two were OK together sexually. So her reasoning is invalid. Hers, not yours.
Has she considered that if you do get engaged and she still doesn't want to have sex with you, or it is a chore for her, you would call off the engagement? She seems to think being engaged is more of a commitment than it really is.
Lots of people don't have sex until marriage because of religious reasons, they are gambling that it will work out. But this is not the situation with you two.
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Right but she doesn't see it as her decision; she sees it as my decision to either be with her or not and that will make her feel a certain way. She's said if she has sex before then she'll feel like she's just winging it for someone who only might want to get engaged so that's not really an option. She's placed such a high pedestal engagement that it really is to her-my choice. To get to that point maybe I need sex? That's not a option. I said I need more romance and she just breaks down and says she can't be the young kid she used to. So yeah-in her mind I'm either trying to make this work or I'm not via engagement or just bailing and breaking up.
You are overemphasising your friend's (no sex for nearly 7 years makes her a friend not a girlfriend) feelings and opinions and arguments at the expense of your own. But her feelings and opinions and arguments are not more valid than yours. The sense I'm getting is that she is all about what she needs from you and you have fallen into the trap of being more about meeting her needs than your own. is that residual guilt from your affair 6 years ago? Whatever, it is not an equal emotional relationship between the two of you and is a very bad foundation for a life together regardless of whether you ever have sex again in your life or not.
I can see myself with her and she can see herself with me. I do love her 100% I just dont feel the relationship is 100%. To her this is the logical step and that's why my hesitance is wearing on her so hard.
One of the things which is making this so hard is that both of you are continuing the fiction that the two of you have a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. It's just not there, and hasn't been for a long time. Sure, the two of you have been living together reasonably happily in a brother/sister relationship but it's not the fulfilling life that both of you should be wanting.
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She's said if she has sex before then she'll feel like she's just winging it for someone who only might want to get engaged so that's not really an option.
Well, you are not someone she has been dating for a short while who only might want to get engaged if she has sex, you are someone who would definitely get engaged if you were sure you two were OK together sexually. So her reasoning is invalid. Hers, not yours.
Has she considered that if you do get engaged and she still doesn't want to have sex with you, or it is a chore for her, you would call off the engagement? She seems to think being engaged is more of a commitment than it really is.
Lots of people don't have sex until marriage because of religious reasons, they are gambling that it will work out. But this is not the situation with you two.
That's the thing. I don't know if I'd definitly get engaged if we had sex. I'd want to establish a sustainable/mutual understanding of a sex life that works for both of us. She has said the same thing about religions waiting until mairraige.
That's what's unclear. I've said: if we get engaged and we cant establish this then what? She seems to think that it will just happen and I'll fall in the loop/she can get herself to open up again. And I guess it is true neither of us knows unless we try because right now nothing is going to change.
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Right but she doesn't see it as her decision; she sees it as my decision to either be with her or not and that will make her feel a certain way. She's said if she has sex before then she'll feel like she's just winging it for someone who only might want to get engaged so that's not really an option. She's placed such a high pedestal engagement that it really is to her-my choice. To get to that point maybe I need sex? That's not a option. I said I need more romance and she just breaks down and says she can't be the young kid she used to. So yeah-in her mind I'm either trying to make this work or I'm not via engagement or just bailing and breaking up.
You are overemphasising your friend's (no sex for nearly 7 years makes her a friend not a girlfriend) feelings and opinions and arguments at the expense of your own. But her feelings and opinions and arguments are not more valid than yours. The sense I'm getting is that she is all about what she needs from you and you have fallen into the trap of being more about meeting her needs than your own. is that residual guilt from your affair 6 years ago? Whatever, it is not an equal emotional relationship between the two of you and is a very bad foundation for a life together regardless of whether you ever have sex again in your life or not.
I can see myself with her and she can see herself with me. I do love her 100% I just dont feel the relationship is 100%. To her this is the logical step and that's why my hesitance is wearing on her so hard.
One of the things which is making this so hard is that both of you are continuing the fiction that the two of you have a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. It's just not there, and hasn't been for a long time. Sure, the two of you have been living together reasonably happily in a brother/sister relationship but it's not the fulfilling life that both of you should be wanting.
From my understanding very low sex relationships can work and do exist if that's how both partners are happy. I'd guess most people are usually not 100% in sync regarding libido and want; but they work it out or dont.
I agree though, due to how both of us feel we don't want to do the other. She doesn't see it as herself having any choice. I could have ignored all my feelings and just got engaged/married in the future and dealt with it but I wont let myself as I'm lacking a big part of the relationship. She believes that parts not missing and it's up to me to choose if I even want to try it.
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I'm sorry to be harsh but this is emotional blackmail. She's trying to make it all your fault that you can't commit to engagement/marriage when in fact it seems to be both of your faults (or possibly just her fault) that your relationship has become a brother/sister type one - at least for her.
And this saying "I can't be the young girl I was when we met" is just insane. She's 25 not 55. She's at the peak of her youth - as are you. Just break up with her - don't let her emotionally blackmail and guilt you into staying in this very weird situation.
I can't imagine what she gets out of engagement to someone she appears to no longer be sexually attracted to. Is it possible that she is gay? Sorry to be harsh but 7 years of no sex just seems extraordinary when you're living with someone who you're in love with enough to want to get married.
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So talking last night went in circles.
I said I cant get engaged without some sort of sexual relationship established. I said I cant get engaged promising mairraige when I'm not in 100%. I tried to make the points that things wont change if we do get engaged and if she cant trust me now it wont be different then.
She said she's waiting til engagement to open up like that. It's just not possible for her to open up before so how is she supposed to do what I want before getting engaged. It feels like a slap of rejection of her that I dont want to and emotionally she's tired and sad because she feels unwanted. She knows she wants to marry and spend the rest of her life with me but she needs to get engaged to really try to make the rest work.
It really is a conundrum. She sees it as I either want to move forward or I don't. There's no other way to move forward to her vs getting engaged. Anything other than that feels like rejection and causes her to withdraw.
It's not a conundrum. It's a decision she is making.
She is making a bad decision.
That's not on you.
You are not happy with the state of your sex life, so you are very reasonably concerned about moving forward in a relationship that *is not* working. That is reasonable.
She has decided to put her emotional well being and self worth in your hands. That is unreasonable, and nonsensical.
It's not a conundrum, it's a young woman who has convinced herself of a series of things that are not reasonable and not rational, and one of you needs to stop this nonsense.
Just because it makes sense to her doesn't mean it makes sense. She doesn't need an engagement ring, she needs to be single and spend some quality time with a good therapist to learn how to not assign her self worth to the actions of others.
I repeat, this is not a conundrum. This is a slow motion bad decision.
Right but she doesn't see it as her decision; she sees it as my decision to either be with her or not and that will make her feel a certain way. She's said if she has sex before then she'll feel like she's just winging it for someone who only might want to get engaged so that's not really an option. She's placed such a high pedestal engagement that it really is to her-my choice. To get to that point maybe I need sex? That's not a option. I said I need more romance and she just breaks down and says she can't be the young kid she used to. So yeah-in her mind I'm either trying to make this work or I'm not via engagement or just bailing and breaking up.
I can see myself with her and she can see herself with me. I do love her 100% I just dont feel the relationship is 100%. To her this is the logical step and that's why my hesitance is wearing on her so hard.
Dude...based on my first response in this thread, literally no one understands her thinking more than I do. You don't need to explain to me why she is pushing you and how she blames you.
Trust me, I get it.
Because I get it is why I'm going to hammer this home: her desire to get engaged is IRRESPONSIBLE and IRRATIONAL and it puts you in an incredibly distressing position.
I get it.
...but you still have to do the right thing.
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Don't know where I heard this, but it seems applicable here: if the sex is good, it's 5 % of the marriage; if the sex is bad (or non-existent, I guess), it's 95 % of the marriage.
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Sexual problems and mismatches are common in relationships, but this seems less a sexual issue than your gf's need for unrealistic markers of 'certainty' and validation from you. She's using the hypothetical promise of sex as some sort of reward for you making her feel emotionally fulfilled, which strikes me as a really immature and unhealthy approach to a relationship. Her sense of self-worth, self-confidence, etc. has to come from within herself, or there will always potentially be something making her feel insecure about herself that requires 'fixing' by an external source. What if you are married a few years and it becomes "but if I even catch you glancing at another woman, it makes me feel unwanted"? Or, "I won't feel truly chosen unless you want to have kids with me?" Or, "If you really valued me, you'd buy me/let me buy this thing I want"? Or whatever.
Re: sex... as a woman who has been through radical fluctuations of desire for sex AND responsiveness during sex, I can tell you that for me, sexual interest and responsiveness is 70% driven by purely physical factors (e.g., hormone levels, health issues), and 30% by outside factors (stress level, state of my relationship, etc.) I've had a previously strong sex drive/responsiveness turn off like a light switch b/c I went on the pill, or b/c my hormones were otherwise out of whack (with zero other changes in life, happiness, partner, etc). So I'd make 100% sure that there isn't something physical driving your gf's lack of sexual interest. You say she was originally interested in sex. Does that mean she was truly physically 'into it'? Did she get actively horny? Did she orgasm? Or did she just do it for the closeness/out of obligation, etc., early in the relationship? Does she still have sexual desire that she satisfies other ways (e.g., masturbation?) You need to be clear on this b/c if this is a physical thing, then fixing that might take the issue completely off the table. In other words, she might be interpreting her lack of interest in sex as a mental thing, when it is in fact completely physical in origin.
Going years without sex or sexual desire when one is otherwise healthy and one's hormones are not artificially jacked up indicates either some notable psychological issues around sex OR simply that she is mostly asexual or has an extremely low sex drive (which is perfectly fine, but would make her an unsuitable marriage partner for you).
But even if her lack of desire for sex IS 100% due to what she says it is, we are right back to my original point (see first paragraph).
My fear is that you are both falling prey to over-weighting your sunk costs in terms of time and emotional effort, and mistaking these for evidence that you are a good long-term match. People change over time, often A LOT. Many people on this thread have already commented about the challenges of failing to end relationships when they should be ended, b/c of comfort, logistical and financial convenience, etc. The problem is that so many people later look back with regret not on the relationship itself, but just on the excessive time and energy they spent locked into it.
I know someone who just went through this. Got involved around age 20 with a young man, whom she sincerely loved. Sex was fine in the beginning and the relationship was fine, if not terrific, for the first 5 years or so. But then she decided to go to college. He did more or less what he'd done since high school. They began to grow apart. Sex life stagnated, they began to fight about longstanding but previously less important issues related to their long term goals. They went to therapy and things would improve for a little while. They had shared finances, families, pets. But they never shared a long-term vision for the future. And their sex life gradually became nonexistent. Soon, 15 years had gone by, and they had spent roughly half their time together living as cranky roommates. He was still playing video games most of his time off, still working the same types of jobs he had right out of high school, with no ambitions to buy a house, save for retirement, or do anything else. She had a Master's degree, a budding career, and wanted to move along in adulting. They fought a lot and resented each other, but just couldn't bring themselves to cut their losses and end it.
Finally, my friend walked away. By that time she was in her mid-30s. It wasn't that she didn't love her ex, but he just was not a suitable life partner for her. And she knows that he never was, and she was too conflict averse to face up to it earlier. He was suitable short-term partner for the carefree days of their early 20s, and she bitterly regrets that she didn't have the vision and strength to end it 10 years earlier when she could think of relationship as a good one, instead of a tar pit she should have ended long ago. It could have saved them both 10 years of unhappiness and self-doubt, and also opened up 10 years of opportunities to find more suitable long term partners.
Don't be my friend. Those kind of regrets are hard to live with.
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Some interesting perspectives here, and certainly the trust/commitment/sex issues are intertwined.
It sounds like she won't feel comfortable with sex without emotional intimacy and trust/commitment, while the OP won't feel comfortable with commitment without sex/physical intimacy. Neither is right or wrong, but they are pretty key differences to navigate. It's good you're seeing a counselor.
Side note, as a demisexual person, emotional intimacy is necessary to even feel sexual attraction, and the idea that sex is a key factor in a relationship is basically a foreign concept (sex simply doesn't drive us). It's probably similarly weird for a sexual person to think that sex would not be absolutely necessary and a primary focus in an intimate relationship. Everyone has their own understanding of "intimacy", "romance", and what they're looking for in a relationship. It's never a good idea to make assumptions here.
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Some interesting perspectives here, and certainly the trust/commitment/sex issues are intertwined.
It sounds like she won't feel comfortable with sex without emotional intimacy and trust/commitment, while the OP won't feel comfortable with commitment without sex/physical intimacy. Neither is right or wrong, but they are pretty key differences to navigate. It's good you're seeing a counselor.
Side note, as a demisexual person, emotional intimacy is necessary to even feel sexual attraction, and the idea that sex is a key factor in a relationship is basically a foreign concept (sex simply doesn't drive us). It's probably similarly weird for a sexual person to think that sex would not be absolutely necessary and a primary focus in an intimate relationship. Everyone has their own understanding of "intimacy", "romance", and what they're looking for in a relationship. It's never a good idea to make assumptions here.
Needing trust and emotional intimacy is one thing.
Demanding an engagement as a prerequisite to work on the relationship is not the same thing.
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^ Right, it's not the same thing, but it sounds like the OP is demanding sex as a prerequisite to continue the relationship, and she is demanding an engagement to commit sexually. They are not on the same page with this.
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^ Right, it's not the same thing, but it sounds like the OP is demanding sex as a prerequisite to continue the relationship, and she is demanding an engagement to commit sexually. They are not on the same page with this.
That's pretty much what it is. It's ridiculous as we've been happy for years in all other aspects of our relationship. Like we sacrifice for each other, we don't just coexist. Everyone asking why we didn't break up years ago-we like being together. It's comfortable. It's happy. It's something we've grown into and something that matters to us. Yeah not having sex sucks and it's taken a negative toll on me but I'm not saying that was the defining aspect of our relationship. By putting the pedal down on engagement it seems to have become the defining aspect of our relationship though.
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I'm sorry to be harsh but this is emotional blackmail. She's trying to make it all your fault that you can't commit to engagement/marriage when in fact it seems to be both of your faults (or possibly just her fault) that your relationship has become a brother/sister type one - at least for her.
And this saying "I can't be the young girl I was when we met" is just insane. She's 25 not 55. She's at the peak of her youth - as are you. Just break up with her - don't let her emotionally blackmail and guilt you into staying in this very weird situation.
I can't imagine what she gets out of engagement to someone she appears to no longer be sexually attracted to. Is it possible that she is gay? Sorry to be harsh but 7 years of no sex just seems extraordinary when you're living with someone who you're in love with enough to want to get married.
It's crazy on paper but as someone who's been in a sexless relationship for this long-you can be happy without it. It's just something you don't let define how you treat the other person. She very well could have a hormonal issue (mentioned below due to bc).
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^ Right, it's not the same thing, but it sounds like the OP is demanding sex as a prerequisite to continue the relationship, and she is demanding an engagement to commit sexually. They are not on the same page with this.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with him stating his needs.
That's honest and fair.
She either wants to work on a sex life with him or she doesn't.
That's also fair.
Refusing to own her own feelings and demanding the insanity of getting engaged is not honest or fair, not to him and not to herself either.
He's stuck with her through this for 7 years. He hasn't demanded anything of her, he's simply refusing to take a huge next step with her under these circumstances, which is beyond reasonable and responsible.
So yeah, they are not on the same page.
Marriage is not the answer. Either rational compromise or breaking up are the right answers.
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Alright so she'll be home tonight and i'm sure we'll get in the same sad repetitive loop of why I won't get engaged. It leaves me 2 options.
1: Tell her we aren't getting engaged on the trip. I want to see if your BC has been limiting your emotions towards me all this time. Get off it when we get back and let's see how we can progress. If you aren't willing to try this then we should break up as I can't in good faith get engaged or married if our relationship stays how it is now.
2: tell her we are getting engaged on the trip, conditionally to see if we can progress our relationship. Make it a point that I am not committed to marriage at this point but if she believes it is what she needs to progress our relationship I will engage in it.
I'm not 100% how her mind works but it's possible the past experiences have got her to close off completely sexually-and she rationalizes it as only being ok when she's with me forever. I personally don't think relationships should be worked on through marriage but rather before. I'm just trying to figure out how to word it so she doesn't take it hard in that I must not love her completely or just want her for sex sort of reasoning.
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#1 all the way.
for #2 - the whole point of getting engaged is that you are getting married. Otherwise, what does "getting engaged" mean?
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I think that many of these replies are overly harsh, even if I don't exactly disagree with their recommendations.
All I see here is sadness. I'm of the opinion that no one should even consider getting married until they hit at least 30, and that your 20s should be spent figuring out what kind of person you most want to spend your life with. What I see here is people who haven't figured it out, trying to jump in too early, and thus setting themselves up for divorce.
But love blinds you in all kinds of different ways. If I may for a moment offer you one of the hardest love lessons I had to learn, it's that if you have doubts now then things are only going to get worse. Marriage is hard and children only make it worse, and you need to have a rock solid foundation built before you try to go adding all that froofery on top of it. In every case when I debated with myself whether my ongoing relationship struggles were normal growing pains or a sign of impending doom, it was the doom. Always the doom.
Who you marry is probably the single most important decision you will make in your life, and should be considered with the same sort of cautious deliberation that you used to approach buying a house, or choosing a college. If you're not absolutely thrilled with your choice, it's not the right choice.
You don't sound thrilled.
I generally agree, but I'll offer a single, 2nd-hand anecdote as counterpoint: I do know of at least one case where someone with misgivings went on to have a healthy committed relationship. In that case, part of my friend's concern was to do with timing/stage of life (this was his first post-graduation girlfriend, so he had some FOMO regarding opportunities to "shop around" or "sow his oats"). Another part of it was a very legitimate concern about her attitude and behavior at home; however, in their case the addition a child turned out to be exactly what was needed to improve that situation. (Basically she was bored and aimless at home, and taking it out on him; among other things, I suspect that she was caught between a staunchly feminist ideology vs. a personal desire for an old-fashioned SAHM lifestyle.)
I'm not saying that this is the way it works out in most cases, and certainly not that it's especially likely in the OP's case. But it is possible for things to work out in these situations. It's just that it's a high-stakes bet, with relatively long odds compared to other scenarios.
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If you have't had sex in several years, why is she on birth control at all?
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^ Right, it's not the same thing, but it sounds like the OP is demanding sex as a prerequisite to continue the relationship, and she is demanding an engagement to commit sexually. They are not on the same page with this.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with him stating his needs.
That's honest and fair.
She either wants to work on a sex life with him or she doesn't.
That's also fair.
Refusing to own her own feelings and demanding the insanity of getting engaged is not honest or fair, not to him and not to herself either.
He's stuck with her through this for 7 years. He hasn't demanded anything of her, he's simply refusing to take a huge next step with her under these circumstances, which is beyond reasonable and responsible.
So yeah, they are not on the same page.
Marriage is not the answer. Either rational compromise or breaking up are the right answers.
Exactly. He hasn't threatened to end the relationship and hasn't cheated again despite not having had sex in what sounds like at least a year or many years. He was ok with his relationship as it was until she started talking about engagement and he basically said their relationship in their current form was not engagement material. She has been the one driving this whole process.
OP - are you hoping she will just make the decision on her own? Are you worried about her feelings to the point that you are unable to do it yourself? This could drag on for a very long time. She is emotional and irrational and is not just suddenly going to have the light bulb go on and become more reasonable about the whole thing. Ain't gonna happen. You are doing her a kindness by letting her go in her early to mid 20s in that she will have enough time to move on, find herself, unfuck whatever portion of her brain has been consumed by this, AND still have enough time in her fertile years to find someone appropriate to marry and have children with. By holding onto this towards your 30s you are robbing her of that option.
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If you have't had sex in several years, why is she on birth control at all?
Helps regulate periods. Quite a lot of females take it for issues other than sex.
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Go with #1, #2 is a fake engagement and you will just end up in this exact same situation again when she starts pressuring you to set a date.
If you two don't have the trust and communication skills to get through this with #1 approach, then you are not ready for marriage anyway, regardless of the mismatched sex drive issue.
#1 is honest and compassionate. You aren't saying "put out or I'm gone", you're saying that you want to stay and try things that might help. You *are* in fact showing your commitment.
Don't expect her to react well, but more importantly, don't interpret her reacting poorly as an indication that you've said anything wrong.
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I would go with #1 and try seeing a sex therapist.
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^ Right, it's not the same thing, but it sounds like the OP is demanding sex as a prerequisite to continue the relationship, and she is demanding an engagement to commit sexually. They are not on the same page with this.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with him stating his needs.
That's honest and fair.
She either wants to work on a sex life with him or she doesn't.
That's also fair.
Refusing to own her own feelings and demanding the insanity of getting engaged is not honest or fair, not to him and not to herself either.
He's stuck with her through this for 7 years. He hasn't demanded anything of her, he's simply refusing to take a huge next step with her under these circumstances, which is beyond reasonable and responsible.
So yeah, they are not on the same page.
Marriage is not the answer. Either rational compromise or breaking up are the right answers.
I think OP is totally in the right to hold at least some progress on the sexual intimacy front before getting engaged. However, I'm not sure that calling her position "insanity" is entirely fair. Keep in mind that a century ago, her demand for a commitment to marry prior to engaging in sex would have been seen as entirely appropriate, and even admirable. Our modern culture regards that as ill-advised, and perhaps with good reason; but it doesn't mean that her position is necessarily invalid. Particularly if she is demi-sexual or the like, she may just be stating her own honest emotional need. It's a regrettable impasse, but not one I would demonize her for.
Of course it's also possible that she's being disingenuous and emotionally manipulative, but we can't really know that from our distant position, based only on what's been said so far.
Also, as I stated before, I'm not convinced that the mere act of "putting a ring on it" is necessarily going to do it for her at this point; she might need to feel an enthusiasm from the OP that simply isn't there. It sounds like she herself may not understand what exactly it would take to turn her on again, so even following her requests to the letter might or might not do it (as she herself has indicated). Which brings me back to the idea that it's a regrettable impasse that may not leave them with a good way forward at this point.
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Go with #1, #2 is a fake engagement and you will just end up in this exact same situation again when she starts pressuring you to set a date.
If you two don't have the trust and communication skills to get through this with #1 approach, then you are not ready for marriage anyway, regardless of the mismatched sex drive issue.
#1 is honest and compassionate. You aren't saying "put out or I'm gone", you're saying that you want to stay and try things that might help. You *are* in fact showing your commitment.
Don't expect her to react well, but more importantly, don't interpret her reacting poorly as an indication that you've said anything wrong.
She probably won't react well. She's built this up in her head for a while but after asking me what else we can do i have to say something
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^ Right, it's not the same thing, but it sounds like the OP is demanding sex as a prerequisite to continue the relationship, and she is demanding an engagement to commit sexually. They are not on the same page with this.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with him stating his needs.
That's honest and fair.
She either wants to work on a sex life with him or she doesn't.
That's also fair.
Refusing to own her own feelings and demanding the insanity of getting engaged is not honest or fair, not to him and not to herself either.
He's stuck with her through this for 7 years. He hasn't demanded anything of her, he's simply refusing to take a huge next step with her under these circumstances, which is beyond reasonable and responsible.
So yeah, they are not on the same page.
Marriage is not the answer. Either rational compromise or breaking up are the right answers.
I think OP is totally in the right to hold at least some progress on the sexual intimacy front before getting engaged. However, I'm not sure that calling her position "insanity" is entirely fair. Keep in mind that a century ago, her demand for a commitment to marry prior to engaging in sex would have been seen as entirely appropriate, and even admirable. Our modern culture regards that as ill-advised, and perhaps with good reason; but it doesn't mean that her position is necessarily invalid. Particularly if she is demi-sexual or the like, she may just be stating her own honest emotional need. It's a regrettable impasse, but not one I would demonize her for.
Of course it's also possible that she's being disingenuous and emotionally manipulative, but we can't really know that from our distant position, based only on what's been said so far.
Also, as I stated before, I'm not convinced that the mere act of "putting a ring on it" is necessarily going to do it for her at this point; she might need to feel an enthusiasm from the OP that simply isn't there. It sounds like she herself may not understand what exactly it would take to turn her on again, so even following her requests to the letter might or might not do it (as she herself has indicated). Which brings me back to the idea that it's a regrettable impasse that may not leave them with a good way forward at this point.
She knows what she wants to be engaged before she wants to bring sex into the relationship. Whether or not she'll feel enthusiasm or anything different is unknown but she knows that's how she feels regarding sex. She doesn't know if she'll be able to gain a libido or such again but she wants to try and introduce that. This puts me in the position of "do I want to try and advance it as these are her clear standards?". She was asking what else she can do or what else I need to move forward and there's really not a good answer.
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I would go with #1 and try seeing a sex therapist.
I can add that on. I'm just trying to figure out how to best say all this without absolutely crushing her.
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^ Right, it's not the same thing, but it sounds like the OP is demanding sex as a prerequisite to continue the relationship, and she is demanding an engagement to commit sexually. They are not on the same page with this.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with him stating his needs.
That's honest and fair.
She either wants to work on a sex life with him or she doesn't.
That's also fair.
Refusing to own her own feelings and demanding the insanity of getting engaged is not honest or fair, not to him and not to herself either.
He's stuck with her through this for 7 years. He hasn't demanded anything of her, he's simply refusing to take a huge next step with her under these circumstances, which is beyond reasonable and responsible.
So yeah, they are not on the same page.
Marriage is not the answer. Either rational compromise or breaking up are the right answers.
I think OP is totally in the right to hold at least some progress on the sexual intimacy front before getting engaged. However, I'm not sure that calling her position "insanity" is entirely fair. Keep in mind that a century ago, her demand for a commitment to marry prior to engaging in sex would have been seen as entirely appropriate, and even admirable. Our modern culture regards that as ill-advised, and perhaps with good reason; but it doesn't mean that her position is necessarily invalid. Particularly if she is demi-sexual or the like, she may just be stating her own honest emotional need. It's a regrettable impasse, but not one I would demonize her for.
Of course it's also possible that she's being disingenuous and emotionally manipulative, but we can't really know that from our distant position, based only on what's been said so far.
Also, as I stated before, I'm not convinced that the mere act of "putting a ring on it" is necessarily going to do it for her at this point; she might need to feel an enthusiasm from the OP that simply isn't there. It sounds like she herself may not understand what exactly it would take to turn her on again, so even following her requests to the letter might or might not do it (as she herself has indicated). Which brings me back to the idea that it's a regrettable impasse that may not leave them with a good way forward at this point.
A century ago was a long time and a different world.
She's gone 7 years not being engaged.
She's demanding an engagement because she wants to feel "chosen" by him because his infidelity years ago makes her feel insecure.
Regardless of the motivations though, when someone says very clearly that they are not comfortable moving forward with marriage, pushing them to do it anyway is not reasonable, not fair, and not healthy. Period.
And you are absolutely right. Proposing won't solve anything.
Also, I'm not actually villifying her if that's your issue with my posts. I feel like good, normal people are perfectly capable of doing totally batshit things for unhealthy reasons all the time. Pointing out that what someone is doing is a TERRIBLE idea for IRRATIONAL reasons is not the same as villifying that person.
In fact, it's more compassionate to recognize when someone is not thinking rationally. It's most compassionate to know when you need to hurt someone, even if it's really hard.
This isn't a case of him being good and her being bad. It's a case of two people who seem to deeply care about each other falling down a rabbit hole of whacky logic due to an issue that is steeped in insecurity and guilt and was never resolved properly.
As a pp said, it's the relationships that are 90% perfect that are the hardest to manage sometimes, especially when one party decides to double down on an illusion.
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^ Right, it's not the same thing, but it sounds like the OP is demanding sex as a prerequisite to continue the relationship, and she is demanding an engagement to commit sexually. They are not on the same page with this.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with him stating his needs.
That's honest and fair.
She either wants to work on a sex life with him or she doesn't.
That's also fair.
Refusing to own her own feelings and demanding the insanity of getting engaged is not honest or fair, not to him and not to herself either.
He's stuck with her through this for 7 years. He hasn't demanded anything of her, he's simply refusing to take a huge next step with her under these circumstances, which is beyond reasonable and responsible.
So yeah, they are not on the same page.
Marriage is not the answer. Either rational compromise or breaking up are the right answers.
I think OP is totally in the right to hold at least some progress on the sexual intimacy front before getting engaged. However, I'm not sure that calling her position "insanity" is entirely fair. Keep in mind that a century ago, her demand for a commitment to marry prior to engaging in sex would have been seen as entirely appropriate, and even admirable. Our modern culture regards that as ill-advised, and perhaps with good reason; but it doesn't mean that her position is necessarily invalid. Particularly if she is demi-sexual or the like, she may just be stating her own honest emotional need. It's a regrettable impasse, but not one I would demonize her for.
Of course it's also possible that she's being disingenuous and emotionally manipulative, but we can't really know that from our distant position, based only on what's been said so far.
Also, as I stated before, I'm not convinced that the mere act of "putting a ring on it" is necessarily going to do it for her at this point; she might need to feel an enthusiasm from the OP that simply isn't there. It sounds like she herself may not understand what exactly it would take to turn her on again, so even following her requests to the letter might or might not do it (as she herself has indicated). Which brings me back to the idea that it's a regrettable impasse that may not leave them with a good way forward at this point.
A century ago was a long time and a different world.
She's gone 7 years not being engaged.
She's demanding an engagement because she wants to feel "chosen" by him because his infidelity years ago makes her feel insecure.
Regardless of the motivations though, when someone says very clearly that they are not comfortable moving forward with marriage, pushing them to do it anyway is not reasonable, not fair, and not healthy. Period.
And you are absolutely right. Proposing won't solve anything.
Also, I'm not actually villifying her if that's your issue with my posts. I feel like good, normal people are perfectly capable of doing totally batshit things for unhealthy reasons all the time. Pointing out that what someone is doing is a TERRIBLE idea for IRRATIONAL reasons is not the same as villifying that person.
In fact, it's more compassionate to recognize when someone is not thinking rationally. It's most compassionate to know when you need to hurt someone, even if it's really hard.
This isn't a case of him being good and her being bad. It's a case of two people who seem to deeply care about each other falling down a rabbit hole of whacky logic due to an issue that is steeped in insecurity and guilt and was never resolved properly.
As a pp said, it's the relationships that are 90% perfect that are the hardest to manage sometimes, especially when one party decides to double down on an illusion.
It's nearly impossible to make my case without her feeling like it's her fault/I'll never want to marry her etc. And it's not like that, it's just I want to establish our relationship better. I think she's more time sensitive and i'm not immune to that either.
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^ you can't avoid hurting her feelings, they're already hurt. You also can't fix them for her.
I get it, it's incredibly hard to be the source of pain to the person you love. It sucks. A lot.
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Keep in mind that a century ago, her demand for a commitment to marry prior to engaging in sex would have been seen as entirely appropriate, and even admirable. Our modern culture regards that as ill-advised, and perhaps with good reason; but it doesn't mean that her position is necessarily invalid. Particularly if she is demi-sexual or the like, she may just be stating her own honest emotional need. It's a regrettable impasse, but not one I would demonize her for.
I agree with this. I know several people who have waited until marriage to have sex for religious reasons and it worked out fine for them. However, in this case, they had a sexual relationship before the cheating episode years ago. She obviously has no moral or personal objections to premarital sex per se - so something changed for the worse after the cheating and it just seems odd to me that she would not see 7 years of no sex while living together and after having had an active sex life before as a little weird and probably not the best start to married life.
I also think it's a bit strange that she's so fixated on engagement as the solution to all your problems. OP is being perfectly rational when he says that they need to work on fixing their relationship issues before getting engaged, not after.
One thing which I found useful when dating and evaluating marriage was the "porch test" - in other words, can you imagine yourself happily sitting on matching rocking chairs on your front porch when you're both 80 years old? If not, then you shouldn't get married.
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Keep in mind that a century ago, her demand for a commitment to marry prior to engaging in sex would have been seen as entirely appropriate, and even admirable. Our modern culture regards that as ill-advised, and perhaps with good reason; but it doesn't mean that her position is necessarily invalid. Particularly if she is demi-sexual or the like, she may just be stating her own honest emotional need. It's a regrettable impasse, but not one I would demonize her for.
I agree with this. I know several people who have waited until marriage to have sex for religious reasons and it worked out fine for them. However, in this case, they had a sexual relationship before the cheating episode years ago. She obviously has no moral or personal objections to premarital sex per se - so something changed for the worse after the cheating and it just seems odd to me that she would not see 7 years of no sex while living together and after having had an active sex life before as a little weird and probably not the best start to married life.
she was hurt for a while, so i got it then-but after a long period I figured she'd always be ready when she was ready. She's been on bc for years. I'm hoping she'll be willing to get off it and see if that effects her
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OP, You are a great guy for being this thoughtful and thorough in analyzing your relationship. Don’t let anyone ever tell you that you did not give this your all. I wish you well.
And it is interesting to see who the guy is on the other side of the equation in all of those posts in the “Waiting” section of Wedding Bee. If your SO wrote a post on Wedding Bee about “Waiting” the “Bees” they would tell her to get the hell out of this relationship.
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Without wanting to get too explicit here, there are many ways of touching and relating intimately without full intercourse. Is your girlfriend willing to first talk to you and secondly explore closer physical connection?
You both seem stuck in a black and white thinking mode.
Is there a way of consciously moving toward each other without giving ultimatums?
I realise you have seen a counsellor, and maybe focussing on gradually getting physically closer of a period of time might help you both to come to a place of mutual decision making about the relationship.
Maybe do a bit of reading about sensual touching together?
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It's totally okay to wait for sex before engagement or marriage for religious reasons, but those people don't:
A) shack up in the interim
B) drag it out for 7 years
Why would you move in together if there is no sex? Why would she? It's like affectionate roommates.
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Without wanting to get too explicit here, there are many ways of touching and relating intimately without full intercourse. Is your girlfriend willing to first talk to you and secondly explore closer physical connection?
You both seem stuck in a black and white thinking mode.
Is there a way of consciously moving toward each other without giving ultimatums?
I realise you have seen a counsellor, and maybe focussing on gradually getting physically closer of a period of time might help you both to come to a place of mutual decision making about the relationship.
Maybe do a bit of reading about sensual touching together?
Maybe I'll bring this up to her tonight. I like this idea vs ultimatum on ultimatum
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It's totally okay to wait for sex before engagement or marriage for religious reasons, but those people don't:
A) shack up in the interim
B) drag it out for 7 years
Why would you move in together if there is no sex? Why would she? It's like affectionate roommates.
we had lived together prior, it seemed natural when i bought the house to move in.
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Keep in mind that a century ago, her demand for a commitment to marry prior to engaging in sex would have been seen as entirely appropriate, and even admirable. Our modern culture regards that as ill-advised, and perhaps with good reason; but it doesn't mean that her position is necessarily invalid. Particularly if she is demi-sexual or the like, she may just be stating her own honest emotional need. It's a regrettable impasse, but not one I would demonize her for.
I agree with this. I know several people who have waited until marriage to have sex for religious reasons and it worked out fine for them. However, in this case, they had a sexual relationship before the cheating episode years ago. She obviously has no moral or personal objections to premarital sex per se - so something changed for the worse after the cheating and it just seems odd to me that she would not see 7 years of no sex while living together and after having had an active sex life before as a little weird and probably not the best start to married life.
I also think it's a bit strange that she's so fixated on engagement as the solution to all your problems. OP is being perfectly rational when he says that they need to work on fixing their relationship issues before getting engaged, not after.
One thing which I found useful when dating and evaluating marriage was the "porch test" - in other words, can you imagine yourself happily sitting on matching rocking chairs on your front porch when you're both 80 years old? If not, then you shouldn't get married.
i mean i could picture us in the future that far though. She's not fixated in that it's a solution to the problems-she just never saw this as a problem. She's been happy!
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I feel like for this thread I should change my name to "I survived the sexual revolution". As in, I remember the shift, it happened while I was at university. Suddenly there was birth control that was reliable and a woman could control! Suddenly we could have sex and not worry about getting pregnant and "having to get married" and be called a slut.
Um, lots of people who technically didn't have sex before marriage did a lot of necking and petting beforehand. Does anyone even still use those terms?
So OP, given the present impasse, may I suggest your girlfriend get off her BC, and the two of you just engage in necking and heavy petting, agreed beforehand no "real" sex, and see how she feels about that? Before an engagement. Because if she feels nothing after getting off BC, and the necking and petting do nothing for her while she knows you won't be "going all the way", then she has definite issues - possible physical, possibly emotional, but issues that you can't fix for her.
One general comment - back in the day, "respectable girls were not interested in sex". Lots took years before they actually enjoyed sex with their husbands. It was their "marital duty" to have sex with their husbands, no-one assumed that they would also enjoy it. Which sucked for them, and also for many of their husbands. I don't think this is what either OP or his girlfriend would want.
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It's nearly impossible to make my case without her feeling like it's her fault/I'll never want to marry her etc. And it's not like that, it's just I want to establish our relationship better.
Just remember, your stance is reasonable. Don't let yourself be guilted into a huge life-decision that your gut is telling you isn't quite right.
Avoid the "trial" engagement option at all costs. Once you are engaged, a whole series of events will be set in motion: your families will be informed, your parents will get super-excited, and wedding planning will start rumbling forward. Amid the flurry it will be even more difficult to extricate yourself from the relationship (especially as you seem prone to want to avoid conflict with her). If you do break up after getting engaged, she will wind up feeling not only hurt, but also possibly publicly humiliated. It will be way worse all around.
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Yeah the dogs are like our children. Neither one of us would want the give them up or keep them away from eachother. The younger one is bonded to the older one.
Dogs are not like children when it comes to deciding relationship status. And even if they were, children typically go with one or the other parent for a good majority of the time after a divorce and come out just fine (I saw my real dad every few years growing up and it didn't scar me).
Do not factor in the dogs into your decision. Worst-case, you can get new dogs, and they will love you.
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I feel like for this thread I should change my name to "I survived the sexual revolution". As in, I remember the shift, it happened while I was at university. Suddenly there was birth control that was reliable and a woman could control! Suddenly we could have sex and not worry about getting pregnant and "having to get married" and be called a slut.
Um, lots of people who technically didn't have sex before marriage did a lot of necking and petting beforehand. Does anyone even still use those terms?
So OP, given the present impasse, may I suggest your girlfriend get off her BC, and the two of you just engage in necking and heavy petting, agreed beforehand no "real" sex, and see how she feels about that? Before an engagement. Because if she feels nothing after getting off BC, and the necking and petting do nothing for her while she knows you won't be "going all the way", then she has definite issues - possible physical, possibly emotional, but issues that you can't fix for her.
One general comment - back in the day, "respectable girls were not interested in sex". Lots took years before they actually enjoyed sex with their husbands. It was their "marital duty" to have sex with their husbands, no-one assumed that they would also enjoy it. Which sucked for them, and also for many of their husbands. I don't think this is what either OP or his girlfriend would want.
That must have been really interesting to live through! It is interesting to think about- sex used to be a much higher stakes game than it is now.
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I feel like for this thread I should change my name to "I survived the sexual revolution". As in, I remember the shift, it happened while I was at university. Suddenly there was birth control that was reliable and a woman could control! Suddenly we could have sex and not worry about getting pregnant and "having to get married" and be called a slut.
Um, lots of people who technically didn't have sex before marriage did a lot of necking and petting beforehand. Does anyone even still use those terms?
So OP, given the present impasse, may I suggest your girlfriend get off her BC, and the two of you just engage in necking and heavy petting, agreed beforehand no "real" sex, and see how she feels about that? Before an engagement. Because if she feels nothing after getting off BC, and the necking and petting do nothing for her while she knows you won't be "going all the way", then she has definite issues - possible physical, possibly emotional, but issues that you can't fix for her.
One general comment - back in the day, "respectable girls were not interested in sex". Lots took years before they actually enjoyed sex with their husbands. It was their "marital duty" to have sex with their husbands, no-one assumed that they would also enjoy it. Which sucked for them, and also for many of their husbands. I don't think this is what either OP or his girlfriend would want.
That must have been really interesting to live through! It is interesting to think about- sex used to be a much higher stakes game than it is now.
For sure - as far as I am concerned, these are the "good old days". I have no desire to go back to the 50's socially. Or even earlier. From my small sample size, every single marriage I know of, of various generations, where the couple got married because they had to, ended in divorce, and before the divorce it was obvious they were unhappy. Ouch that was a horrible sentence structure.
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If I understand it correctly, the OP alone owns the house they live in. And there are the dogs to consider. Is one of the reasons to not break up, that it will disrupt her life too much? If she doesn't own part of the house, she is the one who has to move out. The OP maybe doesn't want to do that to her. Still, she will survive somehow. She could live with her parents or rent a small room somewhere. It should not play a role in the desision.
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If I understand it correctly, the OP alone owns the house they live in. And there are the dogs to consider. Is one of the reasons to not break up, that it will disrupt her life too much? If she doesn't own part of the house, she is the one who has to move out. The OP maybe doesn't want to do that to her. Still, she will survive somehow. She could live with her parents or rent a small room somewhere. It should not play a role in the desision.
I think from OP's recent comment that that is the case. It sounds like maybe when she moved in he did it because "it seemed only natural when he bought the house" and maybe she gave more significance to it? At any rate the fact that they live together does not mean that they need to stay together forever. I had to move out of my ex-boyfriend's apartment when we broke up (he didn't own it but the lease was in his name) and I survived. I just got a moving van for my stuff and rented a new apartment. It adds a complication to the break-up but nothing insurmountable.
As for the dogs, as someone else noted above, they're not children. Worst case scenario, she gets the dogs and you get new dogs. Whatever you do, don't use the dogs as a reason to keep seeing each other as this will just drag things out. If she gets them and you want to see them occasionally, maybe see them when they're in the company of a neutral party like a dog walker or a relative?
Retiredat63 - interesting insights. My mother has told me a lot about the sexual revolution as well. She was kind of ahead of her time and lived with my dad before marriage (which was horrifying to many people) but she had several friends who got married young because they wanted to have sex. According to her, a large proportion of those people ended up having mid life crises in their 40s and affairs as they had never slept with anyone else. Some of the marriages survived and some didn't. But there was kind of a 'divorce boom' in the 70s and, according to her, this fueled a lot of it.
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Welp last night I made my case on why I wouldnt be proposing.
Every counterpoint I thought about and responded with rational and reasonable thoughts and words.
She was upset as she had just been so excited and now is sad trying to process that. She says she knows I want to feel closer in our relationship before marriage but now she feels more distant. I told her I wasn't going to lie to her and fake an engagement just for the sake of being engaged and that I'd like to establish just a base intamacy through counsoling, stopping bc etc just to see if we can work on that and then move forward. She's upset and understandably so but seems to rationalize my decision. She said she was being a brat and just needs to get over that.
She's miserable and doesn't know how much longer she can feel like this. It feels like I'm not choosing her unconditionally or committing to her as is and she's just shutting off her emotions.
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Welp last night I made my case on why I wouldnt be proposing.
Every counterpoint I thought about and responded with rational and reasonable thoughts and words.
She was upset as she had just been so excited and now is sad trying to process that. She says she knows I want to feel closer in our relationship before marriage but now she feels more distant. I told her I wasn't going to lie to her and fake an engagement just for the sake of being engaged and that I'd like to establish just a base intamacy through counsoling, stopping bc etc just to see if we can work on that and then move forward. She's upset and understandably so but seems to rationalize my decision. She said she was being a brat and just needs to get over that.
Good for you for being honest and clear. That makes the situation easier to handle. She should now take some time to draw her conclusion: leave you or improve your current intimacy situation.
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That's a really good update and some good reflection on her part.
Well done doing something really hard and thinking through it so carefully.
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It is good that you were able to have this conversation. I would hope that she can acknowledge that this is a fair and reasonable request from you, and offers something more than an expression of her feelings. If you can work through this as a couple, recognising and meeting each others needs then it will be a foundation for a marriage.
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Update 2 of sunday 4/7/19
She says it'd make her feel better if I at least ordered the ring (no it's not expensive or anything). She says that would at least let her feel like I was trying to move forward on her end. She also is still holding onto the what if we work on intimacy for the next week/til the cruise "if i change my mind" mindset. I explained that changing takes time and she said she can't do any of the physical stuff until engagement so she doesn't know what else I want from her (she had previously been holding on to til marriage and did change that to engagement). I'm not against buying the ring, but I told her I have no current intent to get engaged. I believe that she still thinks of this trip as ideal and has beefed it up in her head to be a perfect thing (has it planned out, has been buying cute underwear for it etc).
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You tell her last night that you won't be proposing, and today she wants you to buy her an engagement ring "to make her feel better"?
Either she is in denial or she is trying to box you in to an engagement. Either way, she is not being honest, either with herself or with you.
I think you are trying to do the right thing by both of you. I'm sorry it's being made so hard.
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You tell her last night that you won't be proposing, and today she wants you to buy her an engagement ring "to make her feel better"?
Either she is in denial or she is trying to box you in to an engagement. Either way, she is not being honest, either with herself or with you.
I think you are trying to do the right thing by both of you. I'm sorry it's being made so hard.
She might be both. She just thinks we've done all we can and how I feel about her does make her feel able to open up or not. Like she's so reserved about sex that she isn't ready until she feels that commitment and choice. I don't know how else to impress we should work on the relationship before engagement or marriage. She sees engagement as a sort of trial period before marriage where we could work on the but she has internalized that need as a necessity and I don't see her budging off that. I've made it clear I can not get married until we have established a sexual situation that works for both of us. She's not meaning to be vindictive or cruel or whatever-she needs to see i want to be with her for the long haul before she gives herself away like that.
Last night she just couldn't process it. Like she's been sad and unhappy for the last 2 weeks since we've kind of been discussing it because I think she's set herself so into "we belong together-we can just work through anything" that she can't see any alternative. She's bought clothes for the trip, had her hair and eyelashes done, bought cute underwear and the likes (as she expects to....get back in the swing of things) and for her-getting engaged is validation because how she feels is determined by how i feel towards her. (i.e me saying I don't want to get engaged just crushes her and she feels distant from me). Rather than hurting and feeling that-she's said she'd feel better if I at least bought the ring-and if we worked on it (albeit there's not much she can do physically if she is incapable until said engagement) was there a chance we could get proposed?
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She thinks the ring will make her feel better, but a ring she has to hide from people will likely make her feel worse. Actually making and engagement fake makes it so much worse.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I won't try to tell you what you should do. However, if you do agree to get her a ring, then preface it with "it's going to hurt you to have an engagement ring when you aren't actually engaged and can't share it with people. That might poison the experience for you. I would much rather give you a ring when we can both be purely and openly excited about it."
Just a thought. From experience.
ETA: an engagement is not at all a "trial period", she is 100% wrong about that. It's a time of enormous pressure and it's tremendously difficult to back out of. Moving in together is a trial period for marriage. Engagement is a planning period for a wedding. It's more like going through first year of law school, you're still awhile away from being an actual lawyer, but you are so invested already that it's tremendously difficult to change your mind.
DO NOT underestimate the magnitude of getting engaged.
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You tell her last night that you won't be proposing, and today she wants you to buy her an engagement ring "to make her feel better"?
Either she is in denial or she is trying to box you in to an engagement. Either way, she is not being honest, either with herself or with you.
I think you are trying to do the right thing by both of you. I'm sorry it's being made so hard.
She might be both. She just thinks we've done all we can and how I feel about her does make her feel able to open up or not. Like she's so reserved about sex that she isn't ready until she feels that commitment and choice. I don't know how else to impress we should work on the relationship before engagement or marriage. She sees engagement as a trial period before marriage where we could work on the but she has internalized that need as a necessity and I don't see her budging off that. She's not meaning to be vindictive or cruel or whatever-she needs to see i want to be with her for the long haul before she gives herself away like that.
Last night she just couldn't process it. Like she's been sad and unhappy for the last 2 weeks since we've kind of been discussing it because I think she's set herself so into "we belong together-we can just work through anything" that she can't see any alternative. She's bought clothes for the trip, had her hair and eyelashes done, bought cute underwear and the likes (as she expects to....get back in the swing of things) and for her-getting engaged is validation because how she feels is determined by how i feel towards her. (i.e me saying I don't want to get engaged just crushes her and she feels distant from me). Rather than hurting and feeling that-she's said she'd feel better if I at least bought the ring-and if we worked on it (albeit there's not much she can do physically if she is incapable until said engagement) was there a chance we could get proposed?
Good lord.
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Engagement is not a "trial period before marriage."
The "trial period" is the seven years you've been together, before engagement.
The fact that she has decided she can't bother to try until she is engaged means that the trial period is doing what it is supposed to do: showing you whether the relationship should culminate in marriage.
It should not.
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I just don't get this. As we've all pointed out - why does she feel that she needs engagement/marriage in order to have sex when you've already had plenty of sex way back in the beginning of your relationship when, I assume, you were a lot less committed than now (ie. didn't know eachother that well, didn't live together, didn't have dogs or furniture together)? Good lord. I know you say that she means well but it almost seems like she is trying to use this to manipulate you into proposing.
I also find this fixation on a ring, a proposal on a cruise, the man having to do the proposing etc extremely retro and just weird in this situation. If she's so gung ho to get married, why doesn't she just propose and buy her and your own rings?
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^^^ Yes.
And the fact that she's done all of this stuff -- buying new underwear, getting her eyelashes done (??? I don't even know what that means...?) and hair done, etc. -- in other words, willing to do all of that work/make all of that effort to set up a scenario where you feel pressured to propose because it's what she wants ... but won't do anything to address your needs and the health of your relationship until afterwards, when she's gotten what she wanted... well, it kinda tells you where her priorities are, doesn't it?
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OP, I'm sorry this is so hard for you, but really, there are only two scenarios here.
1. You stay together and it ends badly down the road.
2. You break up and move on and find happiness with someone else.
Seriously, there are no other outcomes to this situation.
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Sounds like she's already written the script for her very own romantic movie and you just don't seem to understand your role.
She honestly sounds too young and immature for marriage. It's not about the proposal, the ring and the dress. As long as she doesn't understand that, she's only setting herself up for divorce.
I know one couple where the woman dropped serious hints that her partner needed to propose on the day of their 10th anniversary, or else. They are still together and married now and their relationship is about as happy as you'd expect from a marriage that started from emotional blackmail. They're probably going to stay together forever since they've both threatened the other with a custody war if they ever leave.
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It sounds like you handled the conversation last night well. Now you just need to stick to your guns, even if she is unhappy and disappointed for a bit.
Do not fall into the trap of ordering the ring, which is just another way of communicating "yes, we're getting engaged." It will raise her expectations, and the come-down will be even harder.
One thing that has been puzzling me is why she is in such a hurry to marry someone who she does not seem to be attracted to anymore, and who deep down she seems not to trust. Whatever is going on, it is not a good foundation for a marriage.
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Yeah, that is really immature. Like I said, it's really too late to go there after years of shacking up.
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One thing that has been puzzling me is why she is in such a hurry to marry someone who she does not seem to be attracted to anymore, and who deep down she seems not to trust. Whatever is going on, it is not a good foundation for a marriage.
Yes this is very mysterious. Obviously, physical attraction is not enough to make a marriage but that has to be there for a relationship to work. My theory is that she's gay but doesn't want to admit that to herself or family and friends.
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I am not feeling optimistic about this OP. From what you say she is not willing to explore any physical intimacy without a ring. This is ridiculous.
It sounds quite manipulative on her part, and very self absorbed. Think about this a few years down the road if you marry.
Witholding physical affection may become the "go to strategy" whenever you have a difference of opinion. Sounds like a recipe for misery to me.
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I'm sorry to pry, but do you two have any physical intimacy? Because it is hard to go from zero to full with no in-between. Engagement or no engagement. As I mentioned before, there is lots of in-between activity that has never needed an engagement - i.e. the necking and petting. If she isn't even interested in doing that . . . . And if she still isn't interested in doing that after she goes off the pill . . .
Has she discussed alternate ways to manage her periods with her ob/gyn? Sure the pill can affect desire, but not usually to that extent.
And I agree with the others that she is building a scenario that you are just an actor in, not a participant.
Re the house and dogs, people go through much more upheaval when they divorce - there is the house, and the kids, and the pets, and the finances (pension, etc.).
And I just want to point out that I am not mad at your girlfriend, just thinking that there are issues that she needs to figure out with her doctor and possibly a therapist. It is not uncommon for women to lose physical interest when they feel unloved by their husbands and just see themselves being taken for granted, especially when they are doing a double load (work and house/kids) when their husbands are not, and when bedtime comes they are exhausted and their husbands suddenly expect them to be all interested when all they want is some sleep. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. Of course there may be more bothering her than just what she has told you and you have told us.
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Do not buy a ring until YOU are ready to get engaged.
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The more I read here, the more I just want the OP to break up before this cruise. When is the ocean cruise anyway? I don’t even see him going on that! It’s Difficult to prolong this inevitable break up.
OP, this is really really really important: you do not do not need to defend your girlfriend’s intentions here or to yourself. We all know she does not intentionally mean to hurt you. She does not intentionally mean to manipulate you. We know that!
She is unintentionally doing things that are manipulative And this is probably because she is immature or she is unaware of her true self, or she is impractical, or she lacks a shared vision of values with you....or...or...or...
She is not mean. So stop defending her and the intent in her mind. Yes, you both can take responsibility for where your relationship is right now and that is not a good place.
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In general, not apecific to thismsituation but in response to some of the ideas floated above:
1) I think ultimatums for marriage can be a necessary and a good thing, but it requires both parties to be mature decision makers who know themselves. There are women who have been in ten year relationships who want to have a baby, and they don’t want to have that baby outside of wedlock. They need partner to marry them, or not. That seems reasonable to me, the biological clock is a real thing.
2) I think it’s reasonable for someone to stop having sex for all kinds of personal reasons so for someone to say as they did up thread that because the girlfriend in this scenario had sex and now does not she is required to continue to do it—-uh, No. No no no.
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^^ yep, I completely agree with both points above. I also feel that if one partner thinks that sex is an important component of a relationship then that person can and should go find another relationship that delivers it. And if the first partner is no longer willing to have sex for any reason, then that partner should either openly address the issues or break up.
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Where was this, say, 3 years ago? Was it no sex until a ring back then, too? How long has this stalemate been going on?
I've gone through periods of time when I didn't want to for months, and others when I wanted to multiple times a day, so i understand how desires can change for a variety of reasons. Years, though, that's a whole different universe.
She's likely never found her orgasm. She may never with you. She also may be seeking all of that stuff in the wrong place.
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so after talking most of the afternoon we’ve come to a understanding
She understands why I can’t get engaged and won’t be getting engaged on this trip and she still has to process it (has said she still wants to go and such). This is sad but I reinforced my point it is not the right step.
She recognizes that she will have to make a change in her personal beliefs of sex after engagement to before it-I told her I don’t want her to do anything she doesn’t want to, but I do want to establish that. Part of this was we never talked about it so for years i didn’t realize she had wanted to wait until marriage.
Part of it is because of how I hurt her and she just didn’t want to be hurt and vulnerable like that again so waiting until marriage made sense to her. She also hasn’t had many urges and such as after so long and being so set in her mindset it hasn’t been coming up. BC could be a part as well. She’s definitely not gay-just been internalizing a sex drive.
She has said that we probably should come up with some sort of timeframe to repair the relationship by/if i can commit to engagement just to give us a realistic time frame. We both agreed that would be a good idea as we understand that doing nothing will get us nowhere
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I didn't necessarily mean gay. It could be she's looking for gentle, but actually turned on by a little rough. Or countless variations of those strange twists.
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You seem like a super nice guy. I think you have to be aware of the fact by now that she holds the currency and despite her verbally stating that she will be open or try this or that, she is still controlling you entirely. She is a lot more determined than you seem to be and we are all concerned she is going to wear you down. Please don't be the guy who got coerced into getting engaged.
She is looking for a ring (not even commitment because she is aware you can't presently commit) in exchange for sex. That's not love. It's a financial arrangement bordering on prostitution. Despite you saying that you're concerned about the actual relationship, she keeps trying to work in a way for you to commit to getting a ring. Either just order it or if that won't work get a time by when it has to be ordered.
I think you should also be reminded of the fact that the vast majority of us screaming NO NO NO at you are women. That should tell you something.
Forgive yourself for your transgressions and value yourself and your needs a bit more. You will feel so much better.
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I keep getting stuck on the fact that she seems to think that the only way to show complete commitment to someone is to get engaged. And yet here you are, living with her, without sex for years even though it's important to you, going to counseling with her, telling random strangers on the internet all the wonderful things about your relationship, and even defending her to random strangers on the internet. If that doesn't scream "I chose you and only you," I don't know what does. Engagements can be broken off. Marriages can end in divorce. It's how someone treats you on a regular basis that shows you how committed they are to you, and I don't think you could possibly be doing any better.
Also, seconding what others have said... many things that seem like they will turn your life upside down really won't, or at least not for long. Humans are more resilient than we often think we are, and the house/dogs/vacations/other details can be completely changed without a catastrophe. The important thing is your long term happiness, and hers. It seems like you're both good people, and it's admirable that you're trying to work on this, but I suspect that if things don't work out, you'll both look back on this in a few years and be so glad that you decided to let go because life has gotten even better than you thought it could be.
ETA, in light of the comment below that was posted while I was posting mine: Female here. And I've never understood the push for engagement/marriage. My husband and I dated for 4 years, and lived together for 1 year, and I knew from the beginning that he wasn't big on marriage. So I was fine with being all-but-legally-married. Then, out of the blue, he proposed. Ring. Knees. Alone together at a waterfall in Iceland. The whole bit. I was absolutely shocked, and it was great because I knew that it was what HE wanted, not what I had pushed for. (And yeah, I kinda realized that I would prefer to be married rather than not, but I was so happy with him that the paperwork and the ring didn't really matter. Until he showed me they mattered to him despite his initial general resistance to the idea of marriage.) If I had pressured him to propose like your girlfriend is trying to do with you, I would have spent the rest of my life wondering whether it was what he really wanted. If she's saying she has trust issues, I just fail to see how pressuring you to propose is going to convince her that you've chosen her purely because that's what you wanted.
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Bunch of random thoughts.
Um, no sex before marriage - well that boat sailed. Guess it is back at the dock.
Is there any heat between the two of you? When you cuddle, does she snuggle closer? Do you kiss, hold hands, hug a lot, stuff like that? Because it sounds as if you want that physical closeness, not just the sex but the physical two bodies being close. I hope this is true, because if you want to have sex with her but you don't want the cuddles and physical displays of affection (without them leading to sex, just straight affection), you aren't turning her on for sex. You are turning sex into an obligation.
I remember the Ann Landers survey, where a surprising number of (married) women said that if they had to choose between sex and cuddles, they would choose cuddles. Too many men treat having sex as a separate item, instead of it coming from a place of mutual love and trust and physical affection.
Men and women do (this is a generalization) come from different directions. "Men need sex to feel loved, and women need to feel loved to have sex." Your girlfriend seems to have equated "feeling love"with "being engaged/married".
And GreenSheep is right, you have shown a lot of commitment.
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I keep getting stuck on the fact that she seems to think that the only way to show complete commitment to someone is to get engaged. And yet here you are, living with her, without sex for years even though it's important to you, going to counseling with her, telling random strangers on the internet all the wonderful things about your relationship, and even defending her to random strangers on the internet. If that doesn't scream "I chose you and only you," I don't know what does. Engagements can be broken off. Marriages can end in divorce. It's how someone treats you on a regular basis that shows you how committed they are to you, and I don't think you could possibly be doing any better.
Also, seconding what others have said... many things that seem like they will turn your life upside down really won't, or at least not for long. Humans are more resilient than we often think we are, and the house/dogs/vacations/other details can be completely changed without a catastrophe. The important thing is your long term happiness, and hers. It seems like you're both good people, and it's admirable that you're trying to work on this, but I suspect that if things don't work out, you'll both look back on this in a few years and be so glad that you decided to let go because life has gotten even better than you thought it could be.
ETA, in light of the comment below that was posted while I was posting mine: Female here. And I've never understood the push for engagement/marriage. My husband and I dated for 4 years, and lived together for 1 year, and I knew from the beginning that he wasn't big on marriage. So I was fine with being all-but-legally-married. Then, out of the blue, he proposed. Ring. Knees. Alone together at a waterfall in Iceland. The whole bit. I was absolutely shocked, and it was great because I knew that it was what HE wanted, not what I had pushed for. (And yeah, I kinda realized that I would prefer to be married rather than not, but I was so happy with him that the paperwork and the ring didn't really matter. Until he showed me they mattered to him despite his initial general resistance to the idea of marriage.) If I had pressured him to propose like your girlfriend is trying to do with you, I would have spent the rest of my life wondering whether it was what he really wanted. If she's saying she has trust issues, I just fail to see how pressuring you to propose is going to convince her that you've chosen her purely because that's what you wanted.
Do you have children? For me, since I didn’t want children, it didn’t much matter to me if I got married or not. Although I was not keen on the idea of living with someone because I didn’t really want to give up my space. And if I gave up my space and commingled money ( big compromises,) it better be for a serious relationship but again, not necessarily marriage.
I completely understand people who mutually decide that they will not get married because they share that value. Marriage isnt necessary.
There are people who say they will not get married because their commitment to one another is stronger if they work on it evry day Rather than rely on a legal status.Yeah I personally don’t see that for me but I can understand their philosophy.
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Just want to back up what Retiredat63 says. (Im also Female).
As a teenager in the 70's we did a lot of "everything but intercourse" fooling around on dates, and in a way those were some of the most erotic times in my life. It also helped me learn about my own body and needs.
If physical closeness and touch does not lead to desire on either side then you shouldnt be together.
It shouldnt be something you have make yourself do against your inclination.
And if kindness, good humour and everyday life together does not lead to affectionate touching, then you are also not in a relationship that should lead to marriage.
I must admit that I have trouble understanding how you have managed to sleep in the same bed for so long without this becoming unendurable.
I dont really accept your girlfriend's explanation of the no touching thing, it seems like a bargaining tool to me.
It would be really great if you two can sort this, but it seems unlkely.
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I keep getting stuck on the fact that she seems to think that the only way to show complete commitment to someone is to get engaged. And yet here you are, living with her, without sex for years even though it's important to you, going to counseling with her, telling random strangers on the internet all the wonderful things about your relationship, and even defending her to random strangers on the internet. If that doesn't scream "I chose you and only you," I don't know what does. Engagements can be broken off. Marriages can end in divorce. It's how someone treats you on a regular basis that shows you how committed they are to you, and I don't think you could possibly be doing any better.
+1
Perhaps it would be worth having a conversation with her about why she associates true commitment with a ring, while your years of living together in a loving relationship count for nothing.
The infidelity was wrong, but if she was unable to emotionally recover from it, she should not have gotten back together with you. Instead, she is bringing it up as a problem years later and claiming that marriage will miraculously solve everything.
A wedding is a single day of celebration. It's not a cure for deep psychological wounds.
It sounds like there is some productive discussion happening. That's good! You can see how the situation develops. In the meantime, avoid saying anything that could be interpreted as a promise to get engaged within a specific timeframe.
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She has no libido. She doesn't know if she can develop one but was waiting until engagement to at least try. She doesn't want to open up until she knows I'm with her for the long haul because she's been hurt in the past.
She doesn't know if she can feel heat and gain a libido but she is wanting to try. Right now she's said I won't compromise so the only option is for her to decide if she can break how she feels about waiting for sex with no promise of engagement or such on my part.
It's sad. We love each other and it's not like either of us is fundamentally wrong.
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I keep getting stuck on the fact that she seems to think that the only way to show complete commitment to someone is to get engaged. And yet here you are, living with her, without sex for years even though it's important to you, going to counseling with her, telling random strangers on the internet all the wonderful things about your relationship, and even defending her to random strangers on the internet. If that doesn't scream "I chose you and only you," I don't know what does. Engagements can be broken off. Marriages can end in divorce. It's how someone treats you on a regular basis that shows you how committed they are to you, and I don't think you could possibly be doing any better.
+1
Perhaps it would be worth having a conversation with her about why she associates true commitment with a ring, while your years of living together in a loving relationship count for nothing.
The infidelity was wrong, but if she was unable to emotionally recover from it, she should not have gotten back together with you. Instead, she is bringing it up as a problem years later and claiming that marriage will miraculously solve everything.
A wedding is a single day of celebration. It's not a cure for deep psychological wounds.
It sounds like there is some productive discussion happening. That's good! You can see how the situation develops. In the meantime, avoid saying anything that could be interpreted as a promise to get engaged within a specific timeframe.
I think it's because it's a promise that I want to marry her and "move our relationship forward".
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She has no libido. She doesn't know if she can develop one but was waiting until engagement to at least try. She doesn't want to open up until she knows I'm with her for the long haul because she's been hurt in the past.
She doesn't know if she can feel heat and gain a libido but she is wanting to try. Right now she's said I won't compromise so the only option is for her to decide if she can break how she feels about waiting for sex with no promise of engagement or such on my part.
It's sad. We love each other and it's not like either of us is fundamentally wrong.
The odds of her developing a libido at this stage of your relationship are minuscule.
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Maybe try giving her a long, slow, non-sexual massage. Start at her extremities (hands/fingers, feet/toes) be very complete, and work your way towards the nether regions. Go close, but never completely there. If that doesn't stir up anything for her, then you've got nothing.
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I was on the pill for almost 10 years, and it (combined with stress and relationship issues) murdered my libido. Zero interest. Stress and relationship issues went away, but my sex drive didn't come back. Swapped from pill to hormonal IUD two years ago, and it's been a world of difference (and bonus, almost no periods!). I went from no interest at all to downright enthusiastic. It's not what it was, but I'm not 22 anymore, either. So it very well could be the BC. However, it took me 3-6 months to "recover" from the pill, so I wouldn't expect instant results.
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Don't think this has been mentioned (and if this is too personal you don't have to answer) but does she masturbate? I mean, is she just not interested in sex with you, or is she not interested in sex at all? Has she ever had an orgasm and does she get there easily? Might she have some kind of condition (e.g. vaginismus, or maybe it could well be a side effect from the pill)? And have you literally not had sex at all for several years?
I probably understand you more than most here. I'm in a relationship that has pretty minimal physical intimacy these days (though there is still some, occasionally, and there are even rare phases when it increases significantly for a while). We have been together for ten years and we adore each other, still make each other laugh all the time, have enjoyable conversations and have lots of fun, just not so much in that department, even though it used to be great, and still can be when he's interested.
We have recently opened up the relationship on my side so that I can get my needs met, and I am honestly so much happier these days. Given your girlfriend's personality, this doesn't seem like a plausible option for you at all, so all I can say is, don't get engaged or married until you're on the right track. And there's the possibility that you might not be able to get back on the right track, in which case, break up. Because not having your physical needs met for the rest of your life will really wear you down. You might have times when you're alright with it but the issue will always come back again. Rejection sucks, not having physical intimacy sucks. Right now I can't believe how much I've put up on missing out on for so many years and I'm just incredibly glad that I get to have it again.
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I was on the pill for almost 10 years, and it (combined with stress and relationship issues) murdered my libido. Zero interest. Stress and relationship issues went away, but my sex drive didn't come back. Swapped from pill to hormonal IUD two years ago, and it's been a world of difference (and bonus, almost no periods!). I went from no interest at all to downright enthusiastic. It's not what it was, but I'm not 22 anymore, either. So it very well could be the BC. However, it took me 3-6 months to "recover" from the pill, so I wouldn't expect instant results.
I'm wanting her to stop and she will after the cruise. Asking for intimacy seems hard as it's not a single thing I can describe-but rather developing or understanding if she can develop a libido towards me. I know she doesn't have one currently and that's why it's easy for her to overlook it as such a important factor.
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Don't think this has been mentioned (and if this is too personal you don't have to answer) but does she masturbate? I mean, is she just not interested in sex with you, or is she not interested in sex at all? Has she ever had an orgasm and does she get there easily? Might she have some kind of condition (e.g. vaginismus, or maybe it could well be a side effect from the pill)? And have you literally not had sex at all for several years?
I probably understand you more than most here. I'm in a relationship that has pretty minimal physical intimacy these days (though there is still some, occasionally, and there are even rare phases when it increases significantly for a while). We have been together for ten years and we adore each other, still make each other laugh all the time, have enjoyable conversations and have lots of fun, just not so much in that department, even though it used to be great, and still can be when he's interested.
We have recently opened up the relationship on my side so that I can get my needs met, and I am honestly so much happier these days. Given your girlfriend's personality, this doesn't seem like a plausible option for you at all, so all I can say is, don't get engaged or married until you're on the right track. And there's the possibility that you might not be able to get back on the right track, in which case, break up. Because not having your physical needs met for the rest of your life will really wear you down. You might have times when you're alright with it but the issue will always come back again. Rejection sucks, not having physical intimacy sucks. Right now I can't believe how much I've put up on missing out on for so many years and I'm just incredibly glad that I get to have it again.
we haven't for at least 6 years. She has no urges or libido at all. It's difficult to impress on her the gravity of why it's so important to me because she just hasn't felt that. I'm suspecting it's the BC (hoping it is). She doesn't see how she can make herself feel or act that way because she chemically can't feel that in her mind/body.
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Has your GF/friend seen a doctor to talk about her loss of libido? It doesn’t seem normal for someone of that age to lose it completely.
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Has your GF/friend seen a doctor to talk about her loss of libido? It doesn’t seem normal for someone of that age to lose it completely.
It doesnt and I'm hoping to speak to her about seeing a girl doctor tomorrow
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Not sure how deep you went in therapy, but it sounds to me like she may be someone with a trauma history. Not easy to work through, and she may not even realize it. Might be worth delving into if you really, want to try to salvage things.
Possible, I suppose, but these are two people in their mid-twenties who've been together since they were 18 and were sexually active together at the start of the relationship. OP's girlfriend seems to consider OP's affair to have been the "trauma history". Her being demi-sexual seems to me the more likely answer from that history, and that is not a cause for therapy, just being on a different sexual spectrum from OP.
Most 18 year old girls whose boyfriend of a few months cheated on them would dump his ass and move on, maybe by redefining their relationship as the friendship it obviously is rather than trying to fake a romantic relationship for all these years, and both would probably have been happier for it.
I'm going to push back a bit here and suggest that OP at least ask his GF if there is any chance she might have a past history of abuse. I'm not trying to pathologize demisexuality -- actually now that I know the term exists, I think it probably applies to me! But it is pretty clear the GF already HAS a strong emotional bond and wants to maintain it --she wouldn't have stayed with him this long unless that was the case. I don't think she is faking a romantic attachment. But it seems that the infidelity was traumatizing to her in some way. Maybe she just has general issues with insecure attachment. But maybe the affair was so triggering to her -- in ways that normal people can't understand -- because she has a history that not all people share. It is possible to have years of a "normal" physical relationship with someone and then have things go off the rails due to physical or emotional triggers.
Anyway, since they both seem to care deeply for each other and want to get past this, I thought I'd offer another perspective. An abuse history -- known/recognized or not -- could explain much of her behavior. And it is NOT abnormal for someone to have those memories walled off so well that they don't come out until a crisis drives them out.
I believe she's issue free aside from the trauma I caused and one of her first boyfriends at a young age. It was unhealthy in that he saw her as his only source of happiness and tried to kill himself when they broke up. She has said this doesn't affect her but it might? I'm hoping to talk to her tomorrow and tell her the sex isn't as important as her establishing her own healthy libido again whether it is emotional or physical.
She does love me and I know she isn't just this spiteful unfeeling person.
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we haven't for at least 6 years.
If you have stayed in an asexual relationship for six years, while pining for sex that entire time, that is more than half your fault. You screwed up. You failed to communicate your needs, you failed to escape a dysfunctional situation, and you wasted everyone's time. You created this bad situation. You had (and still have) the power to end it at any time, and instead you chose whatever this mess is?
At this point, it appears that your best options are...
1) marry the girl and never have sex again. This is what you have been doing for six years, so what's 60 more?
2) break up with the girl asap, suffer through the misery of it, and hope you can both move on to something better in the future. Doing it today is kinder than doing it tomorrow.
because right now you're choosing the shittiest option, option 3, which is still no sex, and also no marriage, and no progress and no happiness and no chance for anything to ever get better. You're only choosing option 3 because it is the inertia position, the status quo no-effort nothing changes option, but it's still an option and you're still choosing it by doing nothing, without realizing how much worse you're making everything.
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I was on the pill for almost 10 years, and it (combined with stress and relationship issues) murdered my libido. Zero interest. Stress and relationship issues went away, but my sex drive didn't come back. Swapped from pill to hormonal IUD two years ago, and it's been a world of difference (and bonus, almost no periods!). I went from no interest at all to downright enthusiastic. It's not what it was, but I'm not 22 anymore, either. So it very well could be the BC. However, it took me 3-6 months to "recover" from the pill, so I wouldn't expect instant results.
per Inaya and limeandpepper, I had asked about desire/masturbation earlier, so I'm glad the OP tried to answer. A complete lack of libido could definitely indicate hormonal problems/effects of the pill. Also, if the OP's gf has been on the pill to regulate irregular periods, that could indicate a further underlying hormonal imbalance (as with polycistic ovary syndrome etc), which can ALSO affect libido.
Any type of hormonal birth control can absolutely destroy even previously strong libido/responsiveness. It happened to me in college, and later it happened to one of my sisters in her 30s when she went on the same type of pill (she also had her only episode of severe depression from that pill). Every woman is different, and every woman responds differently to different types/amounts of hormones, both natural and synthetic. When I was on (that particular type) of pill, I had ZERO interest (no masturbation, hardly any sexual thoughts) and had very little responsiveness. I could orgasm if I put a lot of effort into it, but there was no spontaneous flow of sexual feeling. ETA: It can definitely take several months off the Pill to get any idea what your natural cycle and libido might be like, so don't expect a quick answer there (though in some women the change is clear within a couple of weeks).
Chronic stress can also really reduce libido, and that's one a lot of people deal with.
I've long been off the pill, but even now many years later, my libido is FAR more affected by where I am in my cycle than any kind of relationship issues (aside from active fighting/hostility). It's fairly low for about 10 days, jumps up like crazy around ovulation, than gradually tapers off for the next 10 days or so. Same with my physical responsiveness...super slow starter for about 10 days, wham bam thank you ma'am for a few days, then a nice middle ground for another 10 days. This is good to know b/c it means I can probably expect to have a generally low-ish libido after menopause, and will have to adjust within our marriage accordingly.
There really are some women for whom sexual response is more similar to men's than common wisdom would have us believe. We know men's sex drive is hugely affected by testosterone; I'm not sure why it seems so surprising that for some women it works very similarly.
Btw, certainly any kind of sensual touch should be tried when 'testing the ground' so to speak, but I can tell you that a massage would just be a massage to me (relaxing and wonderful, but not arousing even if it focused on erogenous zones) during some days of the month. Other days, just a kiss on the neck could get me a third of the way there, as it were.
The OP might take some comfort in the idea that, if your gf's low libido is hormonal in origin, then it isn't necessarily a lack of sexual response to YOU personally. I have had the same partner for decades. My level of interest in sex with him has surprisingly little to do with what he is doing/what efforts he's making. In other words, I generally ALWAYS find him attractive and am receptive to the idea of sex with him, but my body-level interest in sex with him isn't always on the same wavelength and has far more to do with what's going on in my own body.
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Not sure how deep you went in therapy, but it sounds to me like she may be someone with a trauma history. Not easy to work through, and she may not even realize it. Might be worth delving into if you really, want to try to salvage things.
Possible, I suppose, but these are two people in their mid-twenties who've been together since they were 18 and were sexually active together at the start of the relationship. OP's girlfriend seems to consider OP's affair to have been the "trauma history". Her being demi-sexual seems to me the more likely answer from that history, and that is not a cause for therapy, just being on a different sexual spectrum from OP.
Most 18 year old girls whose boyfriend of a few months cheated on them would dump his ass and move on, maybe by redefining their relationship as the friendship it obviously is rather than trying to fake a romantic relationship for all these years, and both would probably have been happier for it.
I'm going to push back a bit here and suggest that OP at least ask his GF if there is any chance she might have a past history of abuse. I'm not trying to pathologize demisexuality -- actually now that I know the term exists, I think it probably applies to me! But it is pretty clear the GF already HAS a strong emotional bond and wants to maintain it --she wouldn't have stayed with him this long unless that was the case. I don't think she is faking a romantic attachment. But it seems that the infidelity was traumatizing to her in some way. Maybe she just has general issues with insecure attachment. But maybe the affair was so triggering to her -- in ways that normal people can't understand -- because she has a history that not all people share. It is possible to have years of a "normal" physical relationship with someone and then have things go off the rails due to physical or emotional triggers.
Anyway, since they both seem to care deeply for each other and want to get past this, I thought I'd offer another perspective. An abuse history -- known/recognized or not -- could explain much of her behavior. And it is NOT abnormal for someone to have those memories walled off so well that they don't come out until a crisis drives them out.
You might be right, of course. But I am mostly concerned about OP here (he is the forum member, after all) and I'm worried that the various solutions being suggested to him just lock him into this difficult situation for months (will coming off the pill make a difference?) or years (therapy for possible deep-seated issues that even his friend doesn't currently recognise) more, making it difficult to him to follow through on his resolve that he deserves the chance to find a sexual relationship and giving his friend continued hope of this relationship turning into engagement/marriage without needing to include sex - which is apparently what she would be most happy with. I think OP needs to set a deadline, just to himself, for either resolving the issue or ending the relationship, otherwise there will always be one other thing to try, or one more attempt by his girlfriend to get an engagement, and this could drag on for years more when it has already dragged on for far too many.
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Well done for having these conversations and approaching it from a place of understanding each other's needs to see if there's a way to work this out, or move on with a better understanding of what you both need in a relationship.
Why does she need an engagement to commit sexually? Why does OP need sex before committing to her? There are core underlying beliefs at the bottom of those questions.
As Llamo points out, there is definitely something major underlying her thinking on this issue (insecure attachment/fear could be involved). It sounds like sex for her is seen as a life commitment, it's a big deal to her, and she doesn't want to go there again if someone isn't equally committed for life.
Either way, it is good to have a counselor to help navigate these issues. The possibility of ending a 7 year relationship is undoubtedly hard, and hopefully through the process, you both arrive at a better understanding of each other's needs and realize why things will or won't work out. It can be a lot to process.
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That is essentially what it comes down to. She feels out of waiting until engagement she is saving herself from being hurt. She was hurt previously by sex outside our relationship and has sense locked it out. I believe if her BC is an issue that helps to cement her resolves but she doesn't necessarily see it as a issue due to thinking that way.
As far as why I stayed so long-I guess I never really felt like I deserved that part of a relationship. I didn't know what her resolves were towards it, how she had no libido, or that she had planned to wait. I thought If I was the best I could be in every other aspect we would just sort it out when the time was right and neither of us discussed it.
I want to try to work to a point where we both are excited and want to be engaged. Any commitment with reservations is-in my mind-not a true option. To her this only means she can look at her own resolves and ideals towards sex and she can see if she can break them-despite no engagement from my end. That makes her feel vulnerable and open to being hurt which obviously isn't my intent but I can see why.
I'm really at a loss for what to suggest/say/do. We both want this to work but we both don't know if it can; and i think the crazy part is we were happy as is until a few weeks ago when she really pushed to get engaged. So it's just recently that we've had these conflicting views and now it feels like we don't know how to get past this.
I've been soul searching for a while and a sex life is important and something I need to be healthy-but is it really everything? I mean it seems like it was something I could ignore and just something I could coast by without and I don't understand why I can't feel the same now? It almost feels greedy-like I don't want to get divorced and lose half my life because maybe in the future i'll resent you a bunch because we don't have a intimate relationship? But on the other hand the fact that she wants to establish one but needs a commitment for her own state of mind.....i don't know. We both have valid reasons for the way we feel.
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OP, I want to point out that according to what you say above, your happiness until a couple of weeks ago was based on not communicating at all about something enormous. No sex for seven years and never talking about the reasons why?
If you needed to be in that state of denial to be happy, then I think your relationship wasn't really strong. You are talking now, and if that makes you not "happy" then that means your relationship, when you are both being honest, is not a happy one.
What you are going through now needs to happen. I'm sure it's more stressful and feels less good than your previous state. But whatever the outcome is, it is an outcome that was important and necessary.
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I was on the pill for almost 10 years, and it (combined with stress and relationship issues) murdered my libido. Zero interest. Stress and relationship issues went away, but my sex drive didn't come back. Swapped from pill to hormonal IUD two years ago, and it's been a world of difference (and bonus, almost no periods!). I went from no interest at all to downright enthusiastic. It's not what it was, but I'm not 22 anymore, either. So it very well could be the BC. However, it took me 3-6 months to "recover" from the pill, so I wouldn't expect instant results.
per Inaya and limeandpepper, I had asked about desire/masturbation earlier, so I'm glad the OP tried to answer. A complete lack of libido could definitely indicate hormonal problems/effects of the pill. Also, if the OP's gf has been on the pill to regulate irregular periods, that could indicate a further underlying hormonal imbalance (as with polycistic ovary syndrome etc), which can ALSO affect libido.
Any type of hormonal birth control can absolutely destroy even previously strong libido/responsiveness. It happened to me in college, and later it happened to one of my sisters in her 30s when she went on the same type of pill (she also had her only episode of severe depression from that pill). Every woman is different, and every woman responds differently to different types/amounts of hormones, both natural and synthetic. When I was on (that particular type) of pill, I had ZERO interest (no masturbation, hardly any sexual thoughts) and had very little responsiveness. I could orgasm if I put a lot of effort into it, but there was no spontaneous flow of sexual feeling. ETA: It can definitely take several months off the Pill to get any idea what your natural cycle and libido might be like, so don't expect a quick answer there (though in some women the change is clear within a couple of weeks).
Chronic stress can also really reduce libido, and that's one a lot of people deal with.
I've long been off the pill, but even now many years later, my libido is FAR more affected by where I am in my cycle than any kind of relationship issues (aside from active fighting/hostility). It's fairly low for about 10 days, jumps up like crazy around ovulation, than gradually tapers off for the next 10 days or so. Same with my physical responsiveness...super slow starter for about 10 days, wham bam thank you ma'am for a few days, then a nice middle ground for another 10 days. This is good to know b/c it means I can probably expect to have a generally low-ish libido after menopause, and will have to adjust within our marriage accordingly.
There really are some women for whom sexual response is more similar to men's than common wisdom would have us believe. We know men's sex drive is hugely affected by testosterone; I'm not sure why it seems so surprising that for some women it works very similarly.
Btw, certainly any kind of sensual touch should be tried when 'testing the ground' so to speak, but I can tell you that a massage would just be a massage to me (relaxing and wonderful, but not arousing even if it focused on erogenous zones) during some days of the month. Other days, just a kiss on the neck could get me a third of the way there, as it were.
The OP might take some comfort in the idea that, if your gf's low libido is hormonal in origin, then it isn't necessarily a lack of sexual response to YOU personally. I have had the same partner for decades. My level of interest in sex with him has surprisingly little to do with what he is doing/what efforts he's making. In other words, I generally ALWAYS find him attractive and am receptive to the idea of sex with him, but my body-level interest in sex with him isn't always on the same wavelength and has far more to do with what's going on in my own body.
That's the thing-she says she can't help that her body won't cooperate. I know she's willing to get off the pill once the trip ends (the 26) and I'm hoping that it is just something she's been on for so long/has been repressing her that it is something that simple we can move forward off of. She tells me she finds me attractive and we do share a strong emotional bond but i just don't think her body can feel a libido and it's out of my control.
And to answer someone above- no I don't want her to do it out of obligation. I think the root of the problem is that she has no sexual drive vs the actual sex in the relationship. I feel like that's a more reasonable thing to ask her if we can try to work on vs "I need a intimate relationship"
She feels like "why don't I want to commit to marry?" It makes her question when/if i'll be ready as she isn't able to view intimacy like I do. It's something she wants so bad due to social pressure, just standard time we've been together and how happy she is with our life. She wants to spend it all with me as a person; and I feel like i'm just hurting her by telling her why I can't right now -
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OP, I want to point out that according to what you say above, your happiness until a couple of weeks ago was based on not communicating at all about something enormous. No sex for seven years and never talking about the reasons why?
If you needed to be in that state of denial to be happy, then I think your relationship wasn't really strong. You are talking now, and if that makes you not "happy" then that means your relationship, when you are both being honest, is not a happy one.
What you are going through now needs to happen. I'm sure it's more stressful and feels less good than your previous state. But whatever the outcome is, it is an outcome that was important and necessary.
I wasn't denying it on purpose, I was embracing it. I didn't want to bring up old wounds because we were happy. I mean I stuffed the sex in the back corner because-it was only one part of a relationship. And yeah maybe I justified it in silly ways (some people wait until marriage, maybe she'll come around, I'm not going to demand something if she doesn't want to do anything, I deserve this for hurting her, maybe i'm not attractive) and it might not have been the best way to handle it-but i didn't realize that she never even considered it something we couldn't just work on once we did commit to forever. She's emotionally happy because that's not her love language and it hasn't been something she's been willing to open herself up to again. She doesn't want to have her heart broken and I get that but last night it's just like-why didn't we talk about this years ago? We could have understood each others positions and at least tried to work out how to get past it or embrace it then/
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OP, I think it's great that you are trying so hard to understand her position, but as much as it makes sense to her, getting engaged and feeling "chosen" will not solve any of her problems. It just won't.
Between her fixation on a "solution" which won't help at all, and the very longstanding history of not even discussing such a major issue, there's just so much that's wrong here.
You guys are nowhere near being ready for marriage.
With the additional info about her complete lack of sex drive, I'm starting to understand why she is resisting trying to work on it. It doesn't sound like her lack of sex drive actually has much to do with you.
You either need to be okay with a possibly sexless relationship or move on and let her find someone who can accept her as she is sexually.
I honestly think that pushing her to work on this with you could be unhealthy and further traumatizing for her. I think she needs to figure herself out on her own and not go through the potential trauma of trying to force herself while not feeling totally safe.
The more you post, the more I see the only ethical and loving option to be breaking up and letting her work on herself. Let her work on her self esteem and her relationship with her own sexuality. She needs to do this for herself. She needs to learn what her actual sexual needs are without worrying about someone elses needs.
You can leave the door open to coming back together once you both know what you need and if those needs are compatible, but I don't think either of you can fully figure your own needs out honestly with so much pressure from the other.
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OP, I want to point out that according to what you say above, your happiness until a couple of weeks ago was based on not communicating at all about something enormous. No sex for seven years and never talking about the reasons why?
If you needed to be in that state of denial to be happy, then I think your relationship wasn't really strong. You are talking now, and if that makes you not "happy" then that means your relationship, when you are both being honest, is not a happy one.
What you are going through now needs to happen. I'm sure it's more stressful and feels less good than your previous state. But whatever the outcome is, it is an outcome that was important and necessary.
I wasn't denying it on purpose, I was embracing it. I didn't want to bring up old wounds because we were happy. I mean I stuffed the sex in the back corner because-it was only one part of a relationship. And yeah maybe I justified it in silly ways (some people wait until marriage, maybe she'll come around, I'm not going to demand something if she doesn't want to do anything, I deserve this for hurting her, maybe i'm not attractive) and it might not have been the best way to handle it-but i didn't realize that she never even considered it something we couldn't just work on once we did commit to forever. She's emotionally happy because that's not her love language and it hasn't been something she's been willing to open herself up to again. She doesn't want to have her heart broken and I get that but last night it's just like-why didn't we talk about this years ago? We could have understood each others positions and at least tried to work out how to get past it or embrace it then/
Right. But everything you just said is basically more words for "we did not communicate at all about something very important for years." And now that you're on the verge of getting engaged, you're finally talking about the elephant in the room -- the elephant you've been ignoring. But it's always been there, and it's gotten bigger because you tried not to think about it or look at it.
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OP, I want to point out that according to what you say above, your happiness until a couple of weeks ago was based on not communicating at all about something enormous. No sex for seven years and never talking about the reasons why?
If you needed to be in that state of denial to be happy, then I think your relationship wasn't really strong. You are talking now, and if that makes you not "happy" then that means your relationship, when you are both being honest, is not a happy one.
What you are going through now needs to happen. I'm sure it's more stressful and feels less good than your previous state. But whatever the outcome is, it is an outcome that was important and necessary.
I wasn't denying it on purpose, I was embracing it. I didn't want to bring up old wounds because we were happy. I mean I stuffed the sex in the back corner because-it was only one part of a relationship. And yeah maybe I justified it in silly ways (some people wait until marriage, maybe she'll come around, I'm not going to demand something if she doesn't want to do anything, I deserve this for hurting her, maybe i'm not attractive) and it might not have been the best way to handle it-but i didn't realize that she never even considered it something we couldn't just work on once we did commit to forever. She's emotionally happy because that's not her love language and it hasn't been something she's been willing to open herself up to again. She doesn't want to have her heart broken and I get that but last night it's just like-why didn't we talk about this years ago? We could have understood each others positions and at least tried to work out how to get past it or embrace it then/
Right. But everything you just said is basically more words for "we did not communicate at all about something very important for years." And now that you're on the verge of getting engaged, you're finally talking about the elephant in the room -- the elephant you've been ignoring. But it's always been there, and it's gotten bigger because you tried not to think about it or look at it.
yep and it's all I can do. We've been together and happy so it doesn't make sense for us to not at least try to talk it out and see if it is minor or major and then set a plan of action towards how we address them or if it's time to separate. It's just hard to do when you suck at communicating.
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OP, I think it's great that you are trying so hard to understand her position, but as much as it makes sense to her, getting engaged and feeling "chosen" will not solve any of her problems. It just won't.
Between her fixation on a "solution" which won't help at all, and the very longstanding history of not even discussing such a major issue, there's just so much that's wrong here.
You guys are nowhere near being ready for marriage.
With the additional info about her complete lack of sex drive, I'm starting to understand why she is resisting trying to work on it. It doesn't sound like her lack of sex drive actually has much to do with you.
You either need to be okay with a possibly sexless relationship or move on and let her find someone who can accept her as she is sexually.
I honestly think that pushing her to work on this with you could be unhealthy and further traumatizing for her. I think she needs to figure herself out on her own and not go through the potential trauma of trying to force herself while not feeling totally safe.
The more you post, the more I see the only ethical and loving option to be breaking up and letting her work on herself. Let her work on her self esteem and her relationship with her own sexuality. She needs to do this for herself. She needs to learn what her actual sexual needs are without worrying about someone elses needs.
You can leave the door open to coming back together once you both know what you need and if those needs are compatible, but I don't think either of you can fully figure your own needs out honestly with so much pressure from the other.
I think it's a good point that she needs to learn her actual needs vs worrying about mine. I think a lot of the conflict on her end is "how can I make him want to marry me". She doesn't see it as a fix or such-she sees it as the next logical step to her. She has a need that requires being engaged and it's reinforced by her friends, family, her own beliefs and her image of how our relationship is.
She's resisting working on it because it doesn't exist. Before mentioning it she was ready to be married (happy with me, with us, etc). She said she had planned on establishing a relationship like that in marriage but we'd still have to find a compromise of how much that made us both happy. So to her it's either force an action that she's trying to save until marriage to be special and complete with the person she's spending forever with-and possibly not change my mind about marriage or we break up. By reinforcing my position that it's not the right time to get engaged i've cornered her to those 2 options. I have said the better option in my mind would be her stopping bc and just seeing if she can develop a libido but I think that may be too much in too long of a wait for her.
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Sex is not sexy if both people aren't fully enjoying it. Here's how I see things most likely playing out: if she decides to have sex with you it will be out of some sort of obligation, you will likely pick up on that vibe, it will result in substandard sex, and in short time you will want to have sex with her about as much as she wants to have sex with you. And then you'll be back to where you started.
If physical intimacy is important to you, this relationship has lottery-level odds of making you happy in the future. If physical intimacy is not important to you, than it sounds like you two are happy in most other respects so things could work out favorably.
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If she has absolutely no libido, she really really needs to be talking with her doctor. And has she told her doctor that the BC has turned off her libido?
And maybe a new doctor, one who actually thinks it is important that they figure out why her periods are so bad, and what can be done medically that does not turn her libido totally off, instead of just putting her on a particular brand of pill and not asking her about side effects (loss of libido is a big side effect). She hasn't had urges for so long (6 years, at least, from what you have written) that she has forgotten that she can have them.
Seriously, this is starting to sound more and more like the BC is a big part of the issue. Of course we then circle back to why she was willing to put up with this nasty side effect for however many years she has been on that pill. Or maybe she just didn't realise how big a side effect it was becasue you were letting things slide. You two really do need to work on discussing big issues, becasue if this does improve and you do end up getting married, there will be all sorts of other big issues that will need discussing, not ignoring.
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Sex is not sexy if both people aren't fully enjoying it. Here's how I see things most likely playing out: if she decides to have sex with you it will be out of some sort of obligation, you will likely pick up on that vibe, it will result in substandard sex, and in short time you will want to have sex with her about as much as she wants to have sex with you. And then you'll be back to where you started.
If physical intimacy is important to you, this relationship has lottery-level odds of making you happy in the future. If physical intimacy is not important to you, than it sounds like you two are happy in most other respects so things could work out favorably.
True-and I don't want it out of obligation and i've told her that but she doesn't know how else we can move forward on that. My only idea was to hope it was related to hormones and by being on BC for 7 years she just hasn't ever felt that aspect of a drive-and that if she got off it we could try to establish she has wants and needs and feelings in that way towards me.
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Sex is not sexy if both people aren't fully enjoying it. Here's how I see things most likely playing out: if she decides to have sex with you it will be out of some sort of obligation, you will likely pick up on that vibe, it will result in substandard sex, and in short time you will want to have sex with her about as much as she wants to have sex with you. And then you'll be back to where you started.
If physical intimacy is important to you, this relationship has lottery-level odds of making you happy in the future. If physical intimacy is not important to you, than it sounds like you two are happy in most other respects so things could work out favorably.
True-and I don't want it out of obligation and i've told her that but she doesn't know how else we can move forward on that. My only idea was to hope it was related to hormones and by being on BC for 7 years she just hasn't ever felt that aspect of a drive-and that if she got off it we could try to establish she has wants and needs and feelings in that way towards me.
I hope you're right. April 25th will be her last day on birth control, correct? I know it goes without saying, but use some method of birth control should sexy time erupt (such as condoms).
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OP, at times you suggest that she won't even try unless engaged, but at other times you seem to say that she will try, she just thinks the best chance is if she feels the secure commitment of an engagement. Which is it?
From my perspective, you guys have not tried everything shy of engagement. You could for example:
- Try touching/petting (sex off the table)
- Have her see a sex therapist
- Individual counseling for her (I understand she's started seeing someone, but this takes time)
- Couples counseling to strengthen your relationship bonds
- Going off the pill
If she refuses to try anything except engagement, I think you have your answer. I appreciate she thinks engagement may be the "best" approach, but given that it's your rock and hard place, if you are both really committed to working through the issue, it seems to me that you guys should try everything else you can before asking one of you to sacrifice their principles.
I echo another poster who says the issue is that she's asking for you to fix her feelings, when that's on her. She needs to derive her confidence internally rather than externally, because she can't control external factors.
I'll repeat again my concern from our PMs, that you can only get engaged once but a marriage is intended to be forever. Engagement isn't a magic bullet that will solve underlying issues though it can paper over them (particularly initially when everyone is congratulating you and you feel rosy-eyed and happy, before the planning stage and people pestering you sets in). How will she handle it if she feels unloved again in 5/10/20 years? After she has a kid and feels unsexy, after you've been working long hours at a job and she feels neglected, etc?
Was she raised in a conservative environment? I think most of us would understand if this were someone who had always wanted to wait until marriage. (And even if she had become a born again virgin, that might be understandable too if she had clearly articulated reasons for it.) But instead, she just drifted into it, without telling you? (And you asking - this is on both of you.) I'm struggling to wrap my head around the idea of someone who was sexually open previously suddenly deciding that she was hurt and thus the solution was to withdraw sex rather than talk through the issues. I don't see how not having sex protects her feelings/emotions in a long-term relationship, as I think you've suggested before as a reason for her actions. You're still emotionally tied to someone. Was that a test (likely not conscious one) to see if you'd stick around? Guilt for acting sexually free previously?
In regards to not feeling "chosen" by you, did you ever tell her that you've been choosing her every day that you've been in a relationship the past 6 years without sex, as sexual intimacy/compatibility is a critical aspect of a long-term relationship for you? And that the constant physical rejection by her makes YOU feel like you haven't been chosen by her, which makes it impossible for you to propose?
I'm sorry that it sounds like your vacation is going to be heavily shadowed by these relationship issues. Can you get your money refunded if you decide not to go? Can one of you bring a friend instead?
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OP, at times you suggest that she won't even try unless engaged, but at other times you seem to say that she will try, she just thinks the best chance is if she feels the secure commitment of an engagement. Which is it?
From my perspective, you guys have not tried everything shy of engagement. You could for example:
- Try touching/petting (sex off the table)
- Have her see a sex therapist
- Individual counseling for her (I understand she's started seeing someone, but this takes time)
- Couples counseling to strengthen your relationship bonds
- Going off the pill
If she refuses to try anything except engagement, I think you have your answer. I appreciate she thinks engagement may be the "best" approach, but given that it's your rock and hard place, if you are both really committed to working through the issue, it seems to me that you guys should try everything else you can before asking one of you to sacrifice their principles.
I echo another poster who says the issue is that she's asking for you to fix her feelings, when that's on her. She needs to derive her confidence internally rather than externally, because she can't control external factors.
I'll repeat again my concern from our PMs, that you can only get engaged once but a marriage is intended to be forever. Engagement isn't a magic bullet that will solve underlying issues though it can paper over them (particularly initially when everyone is congratulating you and you feel rosy-eyed and happy, before the planning stage and people pestering you sets in). How will she handle it if she feels unloved again in 5/10/20 years? After she has a kid and feels unsexy, after you've been working long hours at a job and she feels neglected, etc?
Was she raised in a conservative environment? I think most of us would understand if this were someone who had always wanted to wait until marriage. (And even if she had become a born again virgin, that might be understandable too if she had clearly articulated reasons for it.) But instead, she just drifted into it, without telling you? (And you asking - this is on both of you.) I'm struggling to wrap my head around the idea of someone who was sexually open previously suddenly deciding that she was hurt and thus the solution was to withdraw sex rather than talk through the issues. I don't see how not having sex protects her feelings/emotions in a long-term relationship, as I think you've suggested before as a reason for her actions. You're still emotionally tied to someone. Was that a test (likely not conscious one) to see if you'd stick around? Guilt for acting sexually free previously?
In regards to not feeling "chosen" by you, did you ever tell her that you've been choosing her every day that you've been in a relationship the past 6 years without sex, as sexual intimacy/compatibility is a critical aspect of a long-term relationship for you? And that the constant physical rejection by her makes YOU feel like you haven't been chosen by her, which makes it impossible for you to propose?
I'm sorry that it sounds like your vacation is going to be heavily shadowed by these relationship issues. Can you get your money refunded if you decide not to go? Can one of you bring a friend instead?
She's said she would be willing possibly try but it's heavy weighing on her. She doesn't feel sexy/the need to invent this libido and is worried about the what if implications of if it doesn't just make me want to get engaged etc. She was looking towards this engagement so much that the fact that I said no to it and why I said no has her feeling confused, hurt, looking for answers.
I have suggested to her the listed intimacy objects stated and from her perspective that makes it look like it's only something she has to do on her end-she wants something on my end that show's i'm working towards engagement (why she wanted me to just even order the ring). I will reinforce these points tonight as things I believe will help us move forward.
I'll talk to her more tonight about why and when she decided to wait like that. I'm suspicious that it's more than that as no one can ignore their libido to that indifference if it exists-at least not without manifistations of unhappiness and such which isn't how she feels. It's possible she got on this BC at a similar time point when we had started dating and it's been a potential regulator the entire time.
I actually mentioned to her going with one of her girlfriends or such and she said no she wants to go with me. I know she's going to be sad on the trip though regardless of whether or not I go. When she puts her heart, mind and effort onto something it hurts. It hurts more to not have this set answer that will get me to engagement from me.
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Her need to get married does not outweigh you need to have physical intimacy.
Has she even considered what would happen if you guys got married and there was no opening up on her part re: sex?
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Her attitude that you also need to be working towards engagement and that buying a ring would prove it is childish.
That's not how marriage works.
There is literally NOTHING you can do in this situation to make her feel more secure. Unless you are 100% okay with a potentially sexless marriage, the problem isn't your level of commitment, the problem is that you need a sex life that she may not be able to give you.
A ring won't solve that.
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Her need to get married does not outweigh you need to have physical intimacy.
Has she even considered what would happen if you guys got married and there was no opening up on her part re: sex?
a
That's been my reasoning behind it. I've told her i've been happy in the relationship and I have had an issue with our sex life but I guess I just seriously reflected and addressed on it when she asked for engagement. I've said I can't commit to marriage when I have no basis on sex and even though you're saying you'll try and such -it's not fair to me or you for me to fake a commitment in order to get you to try to make yourself open up. It sucks because it does put the issue on her but i'm also at fault for not gaining enough self efficacy to bring it to light sooner. She feels rejected and can't understand why it's so important to me/how to fix it to get to that point because she's a different person than me.
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Her attitude that you also need to be working towards engagement and that buying a ring would prove it is childish.
That's not how marriage works.
There is literally NOTHING you can do in this situation to make her feel more secure. Unless you are 100% okay with a potentially sexless marriage, the problem isn't your level of commitment, the problem is that you need a sex life that she may not be able to give you.
A ring won't solve that.
She sees it as the other way. We've had a fulfilling relationship until now without it, why not wait until engagement. She wants it to be special and such and her mind is wired that sex is not only a good thing; but can be a emotionally hurtful thing too. I've tried explaining I've committed to her every day for the last 7 years but explaining why I can't commit to this is hard to word right.
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Her need to get married does not outweigh you need to have physical intimacy.
Has she even considered what would happen if you guys got married and there was no opening up on her part re: sex?
a
That's been my reasoning behind it. I've told her i've been happy in the relationship and I have had an issue with our sex life but I guess I just seriously reflected and addressed on it when she asked for engagement. I've said I can't commit to marriage when I have no basis on sex and even though you're saying you'll try and such -it's not fair to me or you for me to fake a commitment in order to get you to try to make yourself open up. It sucks because it does put the issue on her but i'm also at fault for not gaining enough self efficacy to bring it to light sooner. She feels rejected and can't understand why it's so important to me/how to fix it to get to that point because she's a different person than me.
Right. Which is why no one (neither party) should enter into a marriage until these things are worked out. Trust me, getting married solves ZERO problems. It only makes existing problems worse. And adds a whole bunch of new problems. I wish I would have taken my own advice - I saw cracks in the relationship with my wife, even before we got married. Now, after 23 years and a 12 year old daughter, she left and the marriage is over.
Don't be like me.
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Her need to get married does not outweigh you need to have physical intimacy.
Has she even considered what would happen if you guys got married and there was no opening up on her part re: sex?
a
That's been my reasoning behind it. I've told her i've been happy in the relationship and I have had an issue with our sex life but I guess I just seriously reflected and addressed on it when she asked for engagement. I've said I can't commit to marriage when I have no basis on sex and even though you're saying you'll try and such -it's not fair to me or you for me to fake a commitment in order to get you to try to make yourself open up. It sucks because it does put the issue on her but i'm also at fault for not gaining enough self efficacy to bring it to light sooner. She feels rejected and can't understand why it's so important to me/how to fix it to get to that point because she's a different person than me.
Right. Which is why no one (neither party) should enter into a marriage until these things are worked out. Trust me, getting married solves ZERO problems. It only makes existing problems worse. And adds a whole bunch of new problems. I wish I would have taken my own advice - I saw cracks in the relationship with my wife, even before we got married. Now, after 23 years and a 12 year old daughter, she left and the marriage is over.
Don't be like me.
I've tried to explain marraige and engagement brings more issues so we should work through this first and she's just like "i know it seems backwards but i need this commitment". As someone who's never been married I'm interested to here how it made your problems worse/such. I tell her it complicates things more but have no real life experience how. I do know she wants kids and I'd never want to just have them to keep us together or project our feelings on and such.
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I have suggested to her the listed intimacy objects stated and from her perspective that makes it look like it's only something she has to do on her end-she wants something on my end that show's i'm working towards engagement (why she wanted me to just even order the ring). I will reinforce these points tonight as things I believe will help us move forward.
Sometimes there ARE things that just need to be worked on by one partner. When that is the case, it's a bit ridiculous to demand that you work on something just so it's fair.
That said, there are things you can offer that aren't "working on" an engagement (which is an odd thing to say, because other than picking out a ring, and possibly if you plan a complicated proposal like a flash mob, there's no "planning" or working to it, it's just doing). Perhaps you might suggest to her that you'll read some relationship books prepping for marriage instead, so she feels like you are doing "something". A lot of people who do pre-cana find it useful, so I'd suggest looking into something akin to that. To be clear - this wouldn't be "how to plan your wedding" books, but rather books/workbooks on relationships/relationship issues.
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she's just like "i know it seems backwards but i need this commitment".
I would dump that girl in a heartbeat.
This is a trap. Let's just get all totally sexist here for a minute, and talk about root biological narratives that defined our species for a hundred thousand years before the modern era. Men could impregnate as many women as they could convince to have sex with them, and successful genetic continuation benefited from that strategy. Women could only bear one child at a time and it was an enormous investment of their time and resources to do so, so they naturally wanted as much support as possible from a father to ensure that child survived. Marriage is a social contract that evolved as a means of convincing men to stick around after the sex, to help contribute resources to successfully raising a child, and of offering women the security of knowing he would stick around, so she would be willing to invest in a pregnancy. It was supposed to benefit both parties in different ways, but from a purely biological standpoint it offers little additional benefit to men.
Marriage is much more complicated today. We have sociological entanglements of all sorts and we've made huge progress in gender equality, and birth control, and the economic independence of women. Yet your girlfriend has reduced all of that progress down to it's ugliest and basest archaic sexist motivations. "I won't bang unless you promise to stay" is something a caveman's girlfriend says to him, not something an enlightened woman in 2019 says. She has full autonomy over her body, she has total control over her own reproductive schedule, she has economic independence, and she has better than equal educational and employment opportunities. She can have sex as much or as little as she wants, basically free of repercussions, and yet she's trying to use it like a caveman cudgel to trap you in a bad situation. It's gross.
Do you remember "If you love something, set it free.."? If she really wanted you to be happy, she would either wish you good luck in your search for happiness with someone else, or she would do everything in her power to help you find that happiness with her. She is doing neither. She realizes that the current situation is good for her and bad for you, and so she's trying to trap you in it so that you can't escape. That's not love, that's selfishness. Manipulative, borderline evil selfishness.
I dumped a lot of girls when I was young, and cruel, and didn't know any better. I would have dropped this one long ago. I'd say "you obviously want something in a partner that I can't give you, and I can't give it to you because you can't give me what I want in a partner, so this relationship is just holding us both back from what we both want. I want you to be happy, and this isn't making either of us happy, so I think you need to consider dating someone who CAN give you what you want." And then you can hug and cry and go your separate ways. If my experience is in any way analogous, you'll both be having dirty sex, with other people, in less than three months. Her first. You'll be sad that she had to torpedo your relationship in order to figure out that her romantic fantasy was stupid, but she'll be thrilled to have finally discovered her sexuality now that she's free of the stupid fantasy. Then like two years later, she'll come on to you hard, and you'll get to 3rd base and then leave her hanging because who really needs all that bullshit again?
Wait, was that overly specific?
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Her need to get married does not outweigh you need to have physical intimacy.
Has she even considered what would happen if you guys got married and there was no opening up on her part re: sex?
a
That's been my reasoning behind it. I've told her i've been happy in the relationship and I have had an issue with our sex life but I guess I just seriously reflected and addressed on it when she asked for engagement. I've said I can't commit to marriage when I have no basis on sex and even though you're saying you'll try and such -it's not fair to me or you for me to fake a commitment in order to get you to try to make yourself open up. It sucks because it does put the issue on her but i'm also at fault for not gaining enough self efficacy to bring it to light sooner. She feels rejected and can't understand why it's so important to me/how to fix it to get to that point because she's a different person than me.
Right. Which is why no one (neither party) should enter into a marriage until these things are worked out. Trust me, getting married solves ZERO problems. It only makes existing problems worse. And adds a whole bunch of new problems. I wish I would have taken my own advice - I saw cracks in the relationship with my wife, even before we got married. Now, after 23 years and a 12 year old daughter, she left and the marriage is over.
Don't be like me.
I've tried to explain marraige and engagement brings more issues so we should work through this first and she's just like "i know it seems backwards but i need this commitment". As someone who's never been married I'm interested to here how it made your problems worse/such. I tell her it complicates things more but have no real life experience how. I do know she wants kids and I'd never want to just have them to keep us together or project our feelings on and such.
OK, I'll keep it only on the sex thing. When my wife and I were dating, we were both actually very attracted to each other. That didn't change after we got married, but what became apparent was that our sex drives were mismatched. And our feelings/ideas about sex were different. For her, sex was fun but it was fine if there wasn't any for periods of time. For me, sex was actually a deep expression of love. So every time I tried to initiate intimacy and she would subtly brush me off, it was like a knife in the heart for me. She never understood that and never came around to feeling the same way about sex that I did (and vice versa).
I think eventually things progressed to the point that the very idea of being physical with me at all was actually repulsive to her. Now, I'm no Brad Pitt, but I'm reasonably attractive and reasonably fit. So it wasn't like I 'let myself go' physically. And I was also very emotionally committed to the relationship and to our family.
But it wasn't enough. And this small fissure at the beginning eventually widened and engulfed the entire marriage. There were other issues that came up eventually that compounded things. But make no mistake, the problems with mismatched levels of attraction and mismatched ideas re: the meaning and importance of sex is definitely one of the big drivers for splitting us up.
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It's sounding like there are two separate issues that have become intertwined:
(a) She feels no sexual desire whatsoever. This is not specific to you.
(b) She is worried about being vulnerable and getting hurt, as a result of your relationship history.
If the issue were only (a), it's possible that going off of hormonal birth control could help things.
She claims that engagement will solve (b) overnight, but I'm doubtful. After marriage, you will still be the same people with the same issues, only now with added legal entanglements.
It seems to me that the plan for her to go off BC is the best short-term option. She can see if her feelings change organically over the next few months.
If not, sad to say, I don't think things will get better for you. You will have to accept the circumstances as they are, or move on.
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Not the most scientific source, but it repeats what's common among a lot of these type pages:
https://www.marriage.com/advice/divorce/10-most-common-reasons-for-divorce/
Infidelity
Lack of communication
Constant arguing (same argument over and over)
Unrealistic expectations
Lack of intimacy
You're already dealing with HALF of the common issues. As a side note, while sex may not be important in a relationship to her, from these lists it's clearly an issue for many couples with two spots (infidelity and lack of intimacy) going to them.
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She feels rejected and can't understand why it's so important to me/how to fix it to get to that point because she's a different person than me.
Exactly, this is a key issue. It is important for you to articulate WHY this is necessary and important for you. If there's no workable answer to that question that you both can understand and move forward with, then it is clearly time to move on.
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You need to fix your sex life before marriage. If that can’t be fixed you won’t be happy. Even old people want sex. It’s a basic human need. It’s much worse to get divorced than to break up with someone at this point in your relationship. Marriage is hard and kids make it harder.
I am not looking at this as harshly as others, but having compatibility in this area is important. I suspect that you hurt her, hurt her bad when you cheated, and having sex with you feels vulnerable, in that you are getting what you want, but she is not getting what she wants (commitment, security of faithfulness). And since you are asking strangers whether you should bolt, it's not going to help her feeling of security. I also ditto, for her to keep going with with therapy about this, possibly sex and relationship specific therapy about this. Not just for you and her only but for her to figure out what this all means (no sex with you, no sex for her in relationships forever?)
I also suggest, taking sex on this trip off the table. Instead suggest that you do everything but- sex. like kissing, spooning, nice massages, etc but no piv. That would lead to less resentment on your part, and possibly feel less pressured on her part.
Here's an example. With my ex towards the end of our long relationship, even when things were not perfect I still physically wanted him, and it was literally hard for me to fall sleep without us holding each other and sleeping in the same bed together. After I found out he cheated on me, and he weasley tried to get me back in bed, YES I was still attracted to him, I wanted to kiss him, I wanted us to fall back in bed, but one of my few acts of self-preservation was not having sex with him (both my counselor at the time and my friends reinforeced this). As time went on it became easier. And now I see him as former lover/cheater, not loving hot husband.
Maybe at this point your girlfriend sees you as boyfriend/former cheater category, not loving romantic boyfriend potential husband forever. I don't know whether that is going to change or not. I think it would almost be easier for you all to start over again, in the sense of her creating a new category in her mind. This guy I really like and enjoy his company, I (hopefully) want to explore my sexuality with. With no other baggage. Because if not most likely she is going to lose you and vice versa.
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You need to fix your sex life before marriage. If that can’t be fixed you won’t be happy. Even old people want sex. It’s a basic human need. It’s much worse to get divorced than to break up with someone at this point in your relationship. Marriage is hard and kids make it harder.
I am not looking at this as harshly as others, but having compatibility in this area is important. I suspect that you hurt her, hurt her bad when you cheated, and having sex with you feels vulnerable, in that you are getting what you want, but she is not getting what she wants (commitment, security of faithfulness). And since you are asking strangers whether you should bolt, it's not going to help her feeling of security. I also ditto, for her to keep going with with therapy about this, possibly sex and relationship specific therapy about this. Not just for you and her only but for her to figure out what this all means (no sex with you, no sex for her in relationships forever?)
I also suggest, taking sex on this trip off the table. Instead suggest that you do everything but- sex. like kissing, spooning, nice massages, etc but no piv. That would lead to less resentment on your part, and possibly feel less pressured on her part.
Here's an example. With my ex towards the end of our long relationship, even when things were not perfect I still physically wanted him, and it was literally hard for me to fall sleep without us holding each other and sleeping in the same bed together. After I found out he cheated on me, and he weasley tried to get me back in bed, YES I was still attracted to him, I wanted to kiss him, I wanted us to fall back in bed, but one of my few acts of self-preservation was not having sex with him (both my counselor at the time and my friends reinforeced this). As time went on it became easier. And now I see him as former lover/cheater, not loving hot husband.
Maybe at this point your girlfriend sees you as boyfriend/former cheater category, not loving romantic boyfriend potential husband forever. I don't know whether that is going to change or not. I think it would almost be easier for you all to start over again, in the sense of her creating a new category in her mind. This guy I really like and enjoy his company, I (hopefully) want to explore my sexuality with. With no other baggage. Because if not most likely she is going to lose you and vice versa.
Yeah i've tried to delve into these categories as well. I want her to want to have a sex life/to be able to have a libido and whether or not we can establish that really depends on her willingness to spend more time and recognize it as worth trying to fix; because I can't really "proceed" to engagement without it. If she takes that as a personal rejection and has no hope for the future-I don't think i'll be able to convince her that this can be fixed. I do want to understand how she views me as a husband but hasn't been able to think about sex through now and I have hopes it is hormone dependent. HHer BBC has horrible reviews with regards to increased anxiety and decreased libido.
The confusing thing is she does view me as loving/husband material. She wants to get married and in her head up until the other week that was the outcome we both were heading towards.
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It's sounding like there are two separate issues that have become intertwined:
(a) She feels no sexual desire whatsoever. This is not specific to you.
(b) She is worried about being vulnerable and getting hurt, as a result of your relationship history.
If the issue were only (a), it's possible that going off of hormonal birth control could help things.
She claims that engagement will solve (b) overnight, but I'm doubtful. After marriage, you will still be the same people with the same issues, only now with added legal entanglements.
It seems to me that the plan for her to go off BC is the best short-term option. She can see if her feelings change organically over the next few months.
If not, sad to say, I don't think things will get better for you. You will have to accept the circumstances as they are, or move on.
They definitely have and really that's kind of the only plan I have going forward. Asking if she's willing to spend more time attempting to make her feel feelings she might not be able to through stopping bc so we can establish a missing part of our relationship that I feel should be established before I'm comfortable getting engaged. It sounds like a mouthful in that context.
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Don't think this has been mentioned (and if this is too personal you don't have to answer) but does she masturbate? I mean, is she just not interested in sex with you, or is she not interested in sex at all? Has she ever had an orgasm and does she get there easily? Might she have some kind of condition (e.g. vaginismus, or maybe it could well be a side effect from the pill)? And have you literally not had sex at all for several years?
I probably understand you more than most here. I'm in a relationship that has pretty minimal physical intimacy these days (though there is still some, occasionally, and there are even rare phases when it increases significantly for a while). We have been together for ten years and we adore each other, still make each other laugh all the time, have enjoyable conversations and have lots of fun, just not so much in that department, even though it used to be great, and still can be when he's interested.
We have recently opened up the relationship on my side so that I can get my needs met, and I am honestly so much happier these days. Given your girlfriend's personality, this doesn't seem like a plausible option for you at all, so all I can say is, don't get engaged or married until you're on the right track. And there's the possibility that you might not be able to get back on the right track, in which case, break up. Because not having your physical needs met for the rest of your life will really wear you down. You might have times when you're alright with it but the issue will always come back again. Rejection sucks, not having physical intimacy sucks. Right now I can't believe how much I've put up on missing out on for so many years and I'm just incredibly glad that I get to have it again.
we haven't for at least 6 years. She has no urges or libido at all. It's difficult to impress on her the gravity of why it's so important to me because she just hasn't felt that. I'm suspecting it's the BC (hoping it is). She doesn't see how she can make herself feel or act that way because she chemically can't feel that in her mind/body.
I apologize I missed this post (no sex for 6 years). I agree with others the likelihood of her libido coming back is very small. I've only known 2 people like this and one was pretty much asexual but had been like that most his life, and the 2nd one was cheating with someone else.
I'm sorry and again I will say again you seem like a decent guy because most people would not have stuck around this long. Since she wants to get married and you want to be with someone you can be physically intimate, I would end this relationship. I would argue differently if she HERSELF was concerned and took active steps such as talking to a doctor, getting off bc, etc. But it sounds like she is fine with the way things are and doesn't seem to think it is an issue. That's fine if she was not in a relationship and it wasn't an important part of herself, but she IS in a relationship! Obviously if I was married to someone for many many years something medically happened where they could no longer have sex, we would still try to make it work. But this ain't that.
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Don't think this has been mentioned (and if this is too personal you don't have to answer) but does she masturbate? I mean, is she just not interested in sex with you, or is she not interested in sex at all? Has she ever had an orgasm and does she get there easily? Might she have some kind of condition (e.g. vaginismus, or maybe it could well be a side effect from the pill)? And have you literally not had sex at all for several years?
I probably understand you more than most here. I'm in a relationship that has pretty minimal physical intimacy these days (though there is still some, occasionally, and there are even rare phases when it increases significantly for a while). We have been together for ten years and we adore each other, still make each other laugh all the time, have enjoyable conversations and have lots of fun, just not so much in that department, even though it used to be great, and still can be when he's interested.
We have recently opened up the relationship on my side so that I can get my needs met, and I am honestly so much happier these days. Given your girlfriend's personality, this doesn't seem like a plausible option for you at all, so all I can say is, don't get engaged or married until you're on the right track. And there's the possibility that you might not be able to get back on the right track, in which case, break up. Because not having your physical needs met for the rest of your life will really wear you down. You might have times when you're alright with it but the issue will always come back again. Rejection sucks, not having physical intimacy sucks. Right now I can't believe how much I've put up on missing out on for so many years and I'm just incredibly glad that I get to have it again.
we haven't for at least 6 years. She has no urges or libido at all. It's difficult to impress on her the gravity of why it's so important to me because she just hasn't felt that. I'm suspecting it's the BC (hoping it is). She doesn't see how she can make herself feel or act that way because she chemically can't feel that in her mind/body.
I apologize I missed this post (no sex for 6 years). I agree with others the likelihood of her libido coming back is very small. I've only known 2 people like this and one was pretty much asexual but had been like that most his life, and the 2nd one was cheating with someone else.
I'm sorry and again I will say again you seem like a decent guy because most people would not have stuck around this long. Since she wants to get married and you want to be with someone you can be physically intimate, I would end this relationship. I would argue differently if she herself was concerned and took active steps such as talking to a doctor, getting off bc, etc. But 6 years! It sounds like she doesn't seem to think it is an issue. That's fine if she was not in a relationship and saw it as not an important aspect of herself, but she IS in a relationship!
And that's how we've arrived at this point. She doesn't know if she can break how she feels prior to engagement to attempt to rengage that. I can suggest the BC and a therapist but it's up to her alone to see those through. I can't make her do anything, especially when she realizes it takes time and that may be time she doesn't want to hurt or wonder if I'll ever want to get married or the likes.
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Don't think this has been mentioned (and if this is too personal you don't have to answer) but does she masturbate? I mean, is she just not interested in sex with you, or is she not interested in sex at all? Has she ever had an orgasm and does she get there easily? Might she have some kind of condition (e.g. vaginismus, or maybe it could well be a side effect from the pill)? And have you literally not had sex at all for several years?
I probably understand you more than most here. I'm in a relationship that has pretty minimal physical intimacy these days (though there is still some, occasionally, and there are even rare phases when it increases significantly for a while). We have been together for ten years and we adore each other, still make each other laugh all the time, have enjoyable conversations and have lots of fun, just not so much in that department, even though it used to be great, and still can be when he's interested.
We have recently opened up the relationship on my side so that I can get my needs met, and I am honestly so much happier these days. Given your girlfriend's personality, this doesn't seem like a plausible option for you at all, so all I can say is, don't get engaged or married until you're on the right track. And there's the possibility that you might not be able to get back on the right track, in which case, break up. Because not having your physical needs met for the rest of your life will really wear you down. You might have times when you're alright with it but the issue will always come back again. Rejection sucks, not having physical intimacy sucks. Right now I can't believe how much I've put up on missing out on for so many years and I'm just incredibly glad that I get to have it again.
we haven't for at least 6 years. She has no urges or libido at all. It's difficult to impress on her the gravity of why it's so important to me because she just hasn't felt that. I'm suspecting it's the BC (hoping it is). She doesn't see how she can make herself feel or act that way because she chemically can't feel that in her mind/body.
I apologize I missed this post (no sex for 6 years). I agree with others the likelihood of her libido coming back is very small. I've only known 2 people like this and one was pretty much asexual but had been like that most his life, and the 2nd one was cheating with someone else.
I'm sorry and again I will say again you seem like a decent guy because most people would not have stuck around this long. Since she wants to get married and you want to be with someone you can be physically intimate, I would end this relationship. I would argue differently if she herself was concerned and took active steps such as talking to a doctor, getting off bc, etc. But 6 years! It sounds like she doesn't seem to think it is an issue. That's fine if she was not in a relationship and saw it as not an important aspect of herself, but she IS in a relationship!
And that's how we've arrived at this point. She doesn't know if she can break how she feels prior to engagement to attempt to rengage that. I can suggest the BC and a therapist but it's up to her alone to see those through. I can't make her do anything, especially when she realizes it takes time and that may be time she doesn't want to hurt or wonder if I'll ever want to get married or the likes.
I'm just a stranger, but I think this doesn't look workable. She has things she needs to work on, that she is unable or unwilling to work on while you are together, because she has made some things conditional based on being engaged. That is crazy. Re the trip, either cancel it or make it clear you are going as platonic friends (i.e. NOT as a couple).
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Don't think this has been mentioned (and if this is too personal you don't have to answer) but does she masturbate? I mean, is she just not interested in sex with you, or is she not interested in sex at all? Has she ever had an orgasm and does she get there easily? Might she have some kind of condition (e.g. vaginismus, or maybe it could well be a side effect from the pill)? And have you literally not had sex at all for several years?
I probably understand you more than most here. I'm in a relationship that has pretty minimal physical intimacy these days (though there is still some, occasionally, and there are even rare phases when it increases significantly for a while). We have been together for ten years and we adore each other, still make each other laugh all the time, have enjoyable conversations and have lots of fun, just not so much in that department, even though it used to be great, and still can be when he's interested.
We have recently opened up the relationship on my side so that I can get my needs met, and I am honestly so much happier these days. Given your girlfriend's personality, this doesn't seem like a plausible option for you at all, so all I can say is, don't get engaged or married until you're on the right track. And there's the possibility that you might not be able to get back on the right track, in which case, break up. Because not having your physical needs met for the rest of your life will really wear you down. You might have times when you're alright with it but the issue will always come back again. Rejection sucks, not having physical intimacy sucks. Right now I can't believe how much I've put up on missing out on for so many years and I'm just incredibly glad that I get to have it again.
we haven't for at least 6 years. She has no urges or libido at all. It's difficult to impress on her the gravity of why it's so important to me because she just hasn't felt that. I'm suspecting it's the BC (hoping it is). She doesn't see how she can make herself feel or act that way because she chemically can't feel that in her mind/body.
I apologize I missed this post (no sex for 6 years). I agree with others the likelihood of her libido coming back is very small. I've only known 2 people like this and one was pretty much asexual but had been like that most his life, and the 2nd one was cheating with someone else.
I'm sorry and again I will say again you seem like a decent guy because most people would not have stuck around this long. Since she wants to get married and you want to be with someone you can be physically intimate, I would end this relationship. I would argue differently if she herself was concerned and took active steps such as talking to a doctor, getting off bc, etc. But 6 years! It sounds like she doesn't seem to think it is an issue. That's fine if she was not in a relationship and saw it as not an important aspect of herself, but she IS in a relationship!
And that's how we've arrived at this point. She doesn't know if she can break how she feels prior to engagement to attempt to rengage that. I can suggest the BC and a therapist but it's up to her alone to see those through. I can't make her do anything, especially when she realizes it takes time and that may be time she doesn't want to hurt or wonder if I'll ever want to get married or the likes.
I'm just a stranger, but I think this doesn't look workable. She has things she needs to work on, that she is unable or unwilling to work on while you are together, because she has made some things conditional based on being engaged. That is crazy. Re the trip, either cancel it or make it clear you are going as platonic friends (i.e. NOT as a couple).
All i can do is ask. I asked her last night if she'd rather go with her friends or sister and that i'd cover my half of the expense (she paid for it). I think that's more than reasonable but she did say she wanted to go with me. I'd like to have a more in depth conversation tonight of our options and how I feel/how I think she feels and go from there.
I care about this girl and I want us to be the best we can for eachother and for ourselves. We've been together and shared everything for so long this isn't a situation we are used to (feeling like we're both being given ultimatums). Neither of us feels willing to compromise our beliefs.
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Out of curiosity (and feel free to say if it is too personal) is there a reason she isn’t stopping birth control today instead of later this month?
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Out of curiosity (and feel free to say if it is too personal) is there a reason she isn’t stopping birth control today instead of later this month?
yep we had a cruise planned 15th-26th and when girls get off bc their hormones go wonky. She's missed a pill or 2 and had to recycle a few times and it always gives her some nasua/breaking out. She wanted to have a nice vacation.
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Obviously if I was married to someone for many many years something medically happened where they could no longer have sex, we would still try to make it work. But this ain't that.
Partgypsy: we are seniors and some of our friends have had this happen and no one is divorcing over it. But the difference is that the lack of sex is medical and the marriages were long and happy so this is just something that happens. It's totally different then being young and accepting a sexless marriage. The marriage will not survive with such a difference in libido.
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This is a trap. Let's just get all totally sexist here for a minute, and talk about root biological narratives that defined our species for a hundred thousand years before the modern era. Men could impregnate as many women as they could convince to have sex with them, and successful genetic continuation benefited from that strategy. Women could only bear one child at a time and it was an enormous investment of their time and resources to do so, so they naturally wanted as much support as possible from a father to ensure that child survived. Marriage is a social contract that evolved as a means of convincing men to stick around after the sex, to help contribute resources to successfully raising a child, and of offering women the security of knowing he would stick around, so she would be willing to invest in a pregnancy. It was supposed to benefit both parties in different ways, but from a purely biological standpoint it offers little additional benefit to men.
The biologist in me has to jump in here.
When we look at monogamy versus polygamy, we see monogamy in species where both parents are needed to successfully raise offspring. We don't see it where one parent (usually but not always the female) can do it all by her/his self.
We see monogamy more in birds than mammals, because both parents can feed the offspring (they are not mammals) and when babies are hatched helpless (think robins, raptors) it takes two parents to feed them. We also see the female birds in monogamous species put the courting male to a lot of effort before she accepts him - she wants to get good genes and a mate who will stick around. Females of species who will raise their babies by themselves also test the males, just for other characteristics. In some polygamous species very few males will do the mating, most males won't get to do any at all. Monogamy is actually a good deal for human men, they may only have one (or a few) women, but they are not in a situation where powerful men have huge harems and most young men will be totally excluded. Read the bible for examples. Not to mention Genghis Khan's genetic legacy, his Y chromosome is all over the place where his empire lasted longest.
Monogamy is less common in mammals becasue in most cases the mother can feed the baby(ies) all by herself. Males may have various social roles but being Daddy is not one of them. We do see monogamy where it takes both parents - wolf packs and meerkat colonies (alpha female is the only one to have babies), beavers (generally takes 2 to start a beaver colony because of the work of building the dam, and in a larger colony the extra beavers are last year's babies), for example.
Obviously humans are not innately monogamous, or polygamy would not be a social issue ever. However in most human societies a woman will not have a lot of success rearing her children alone, especially if she has lots of them (i.e. most of human history). Since, when we really get down to basics, the point of sex is to have offspring (speaking biologically here, not socially) any social setup that improves the success of his offspring will be of long-term benefit to a man. If he is a lousy father his offspring will not do well, and his genes won't get passed on as much as if he had been a good father. Of course there are lots of other hazards - when a woman might bear 15 children and have 1 or 2 survive, how good a father he was may matter less. Unless his behaviour is a contributing factor to the children's deaths. Part of the problem is that this is not true for our close relatives the chimpanzees and bonobos. It is true for some other primates, so it is not just us that form monogamous bonds, but we are starting from scratch, so to speak.
There are lots of ideas floating around as to why we went this route, but since they are all "just-so" stories it is hard to say how important various factors were.
OP has to deal with life today, not our evolutionary past, so back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Given what I wrote, with reliable birth control there is no biological reason to get married until children are planned. At that point marriage is important because it gives legal protection to the children. Which in case of a divorce means child support and possible alimony (if a parent, usually the woman. has never developed much of a job history because s/he was a SAHP, that is a liability to the children unless the other parent continues to provide some support to the stay at home parent). If we stop looking at marriage laws as something to protect the participants, and look at them as protection for the adults but more importantly for the children, they make more sense.
Back in the day we got married becasue once we started having sex we were going to be having children (barring infertility). Now a couple can get their relationship on a good footing (including the sex part) before they start thinking marriage and children.
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Her expecting to give you sex on the cruise is going to go over as well as you having to propose on the cruise. It's not going to be willing, and she's likely going to cry and freak the fuck out because she's going to feel like she is being forced to have sex with you. Whatever issues she has aren't going to be solved magically on the trip by giving sex a test drive again. It's going to take months of therapy for her to discover and recover herself. As Kris said (I think) above, it's something she really needs to do when she's single.
So maybe she hasn't had urges in 6 years. But she never once thought about you? Sorry if this is crass, but she at least ought to have been jerking you off all this time. I don't think that's the case though. You are essentially going on a cruise as a first date with a stranger. That's a lot of pressure to suddenly develop a sexual relationship and feelings with someone when you can't physically be separate at all on the boat. Please re-think this.
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Out of curiosity (and feel free to say if it is too personal) is there a reason she isn’t stopping birth control today instead of later this month?
yep we had a cruise planned 15th-26th and when girls get off bc their hormones go wonky. She's missed a pill or 2 and had to recycle a few times and it always gives her some nasua/breaking out. She wanted to have a nice vacation.
Fair enough
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So talking last night went in circles.
This whole thread is going in circles. I can see why you are together. You're perfectly fulfilling each other's codependent needs.
Kudos for following through with counseling.
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So talking last night went in circles.
This whole thread is going in circles. I can see why you are together. You're perfectly fulfilling each other's codependent needs.
Kudos for following through with counseling.
Lol we are codependent; but determining compatibility and ability to work on our relationship is outside of that apparently hence all the extra blah
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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.
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It's really good that you are finally having these conversations, even though it should have started earlier. Just because you've accepted not having sex for the past few years, doesn't mean you want to go without it for the rest of your life, which clearly you don't. She doesn't seem to understand that, or she just wants to get engaged so bad that she doesn't care. Engagement should mean the intention to get married, and getting married should mean the intention to stay together for the rest of your lives. It is critical to make the right decision, and not move it along just because you're supposed to, or you're at that age, or you live together anyway, or whatever easy justification you find. If you don't go into this wholeheartedly, knowing that it's what you want, you will probably end up regretting it, and it'll be that much harder to change your mind later. What's to stop her from moving the goalposts after engagement to saying that she'll try to have sex - after the marriage? She seems to be making it clear that she doesn't really care what your needs are - she just wants a ring, and she doesn't seem to care about your reservations. That should raise serious red flags.
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Engagement is not a goal. Marriage is not a goal. They are not things to "work toward." They are things that happen organically when both of you feel completely happy with your relationship and cannot imagine doing anything else. There's no time frame. There's no "well, we've been together for this long, so it's time to get married." Dating is a time to get to know each other and see if you're compatible for marriage. It seems like you've spent an overly long time figuring out that the answer is no. Good friends, maybe. Lovers and partners for life, no.
What's next? "We've been married X years, so it's time to start having kids"?! Or "We need to really solidify our marriage by having a kid." Or "Kid #1 is X years old, so it's time to have Kid #2." That's fine if you both want kids and if you both feel the timing is right, but you can't live your life according to some sort of agenda.
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OK. Ask your girlfriend to talk to her mother, her sister, her girlfriends how she wants to get married to you, but you haven't had sex (no sex life) in the past 6 years. She doesn't feel that way towards you. If that doesn't provoke a long pause and an honest talk that "oh honey, moving forward with engagement is maybe not the best idea", I would be VERY surprised.
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Maybe have your girlfriend read this thread.
You talk about lacking the skill to communicate this to her clearly, but you are clear as day in this thread with total strangers on the internet.
I'm getting that it's not what you are trying to say, it's the ears that your words are falling on, which seem to not want to hear anything other than "okay, I'll buy a ring".
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I dunno, I feel like having her read this thread will just make her feel attacked/ganged up on/humiliated that you shared your personal history with internet strangers (though I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing that, you do need unbiased people to talk to about this).
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OK. Ask your girlfriend to talk to her mother, her sister, her girlfriends how she wants to get married to you, but you haven't had sex (no sex life) in the past 6 years. She doesn't feel that way towards you. If that doesn't provoke a long pause and an honest talk with any of these people that hmm, "oh honey, moving forward with engagement is maybe not the best idea", I would be VERY surprised.
yeah I've suggested her talking to her girlfriends but she's embarrassed/sex isn't something she openly talks about with her family either. I'm all for it though! I think an outside perspective would be a breath of fresh air vs our normal this/that pressure back and forth would be welcome. I'll try to bring it up tonight at counseling. She has made the point that no one else understands or feels about our relationship aside from us and that makes me think she might not want the criticism or potential negativity from outside sources.
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Is she not aware that you are talking to people on the internet about her????
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Is she not aware that you are talking to people on the internet about her????
I've brought up that I've posted in forums and such but at the same time there's a lot of raw and potentially over the top advice in here that i've attempted to screen through to the best of my ability. For instance a few pages back-I don't think reading that "I should dump her asap because if she hasn't been jerking me off for years she obviously doesn't care" is beneficial to her. She has a self worth that does depend on me to a degree (everyone has said it shouldn't but when someone in a relationship tells you they don't want what you want in a relationship it does affect your self worth/happiness) and i'm trying to work with her to the best of my ability.
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I dunno, I feel like having her read this thread will just make her feel attacked/ganged up on/humiliated that you shared your personal history with internet strangers (though I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing that, you do need unbiased people to talk to about this).
Kind of my sentiments. Although I don't believe she should feel personally humiliated/ganged up on i'd see why she could and that's not something I want to put her through.
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She has made the point that no one else understands or feels about our relationship aside from us and that makes me think she might not want the criticism or potential negativity from outside sources.
This suggests to me that she's built up your relationship to be The Perfect Relationship in the minds of her friends and family, and anything other than marriage would mean that she has somehow failed. No wonder she's pressuring you to get engaged. And they're all probably asking why you're not married yet (not that they should or that it's any of their business, but that's unfortunately what people do). Seems like she needs to have better communication not just with you but with everyone else in her life, too.
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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.
Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement? I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged. If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs. It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement. If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.
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OK. Ask your girlfriend to talk to her mother, her sister, her girlfriends how she wants to get married to you, but you haven't had sex (no sex life) in the past 6 years. She doesn't feel that way towards you. If that doesn't provoke a long pause and an honest talk with any of these people that hmm, "oh honey, moving forward with engagement is maybe not the best idea", I would be VERY surprised.
yeah I've suggested her talking to her girlfriends but she's embarrassed/sex isn't something she openly talks about with her family either. I'm all for it though! I think an outside perspective would be a breath of fresh air vs our normal this/that pressure back and forth would be welcome. I'll try to bring it up tonight at counseling. She has made the point that no one else understands or feels about our relationship aside from us and that makes me think she might not want the criticism or potential negativity from outside sources.
The fact she thinks twenty minutes of embarrassment trumps trying to make you happier in your relationship tells me a lot about her.
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If your counselor offers 90 minute sessions, I'd recommend doing that. I found often that an hour was too short. "Just" as we were getting to the real heart of the matter, session would end. 90 minutes is a better format, IMO, especially in the beginning.
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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.
Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement? I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged. If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs. It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement. If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.
+1 I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to. She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness. That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?
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It's really good that you are finally having these conversations, even though it should have started earlier. Just because you've accepted not having sex for the past few years, doesn't mean you want to go without it for the rest of your life, which clearly you don't. She doesn't seem to understand that, or she just wants to get engaged so bad that she doesn't care. Engagement should mean the intention to get married, and getting married should mean the intention to stay together for the rest of your lives. It is critical to make the right decision, and not move it along just because you're supposed to, or you're at that age, or you live together anyway, or whatever easy justification you find. If you don't go into this wholeheartedly, knowing that it's what you want, you will probably end up regretting it, and it'll be that much harder to change your mind later. What's to stop her from moving the goalposts after engagement to saying that she'll try to have sex - after the marriage? She seems to be making it clear that she doesn't really care what your needs are - she just wants a ring, and she doesn't seem to care about your reservations. That should raise serious red flags.
I'm happy that at least we're communicating even though we're on different pages. I've tried to make it clean why I can't go in with any regrets and she sees that as a personal affront to her as a individual/her rejection as she is. As bad as it sounds it essentially is a rejection of proposal due to how our relationship is.
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OK. Ask your girlfriend to talk to her mother, her sister, her girlfriends how she wants to get married to you, but you haven't had sex (no sex life) in the past 6 years. She doesn't feel that way towards you. If that doesn't provoke a long pause and an honest talk with any of these people that hmm, "oh honey, moving forward with engagement is maybe not the best idea", I would be VERY surprised.
yeah I've suggested her talking to her girlfriends but she's embarrassed/sex isn't something she openly talks about with her family either. I'm all for it though! I think an outside perspective would be a breath of fresh air vs our normal this/that pressure back and forth would be welcome. I'll try to bring it up tonight at counseling. She has made the point that no one else understands or feels about our relationship aside from us and that makes me think she might not want the criticism or potential negativity from outside sources.
The fact she thinks twenty minutes of embarrassment trumps trying to make you happier in your relationship tells me a lot about her.
It's not just 20 minutes of embarrassment though, it's the fact that they'll then know. You've let the cat out of the bag and you can't pretend things are the same afterwards. My in-laws were told that one kid suspected cheating by their spouse. This has - 15 years later - still tainted interactions in that the kid thinks they continue to hold it against the spouse/don't like the spouse (and possibly that kid is right). Heck I wasn't around then and I've heard the story.
That said - I think you can raise to her the very fact that she is embarrassed/afraid to share might suggest she knows this is something they would have concerns about. That it IS a big deal for a lot of people and she can't just sweep it under the rug because it's not a relationship aspect that is important to her.
(Also worthwhile adding that you are very sorry for not having raised it sooner, that you made a mistake in letting her think your relationship was good/perfect for so so so long when in reality you weren't entirely happy, but you have a chance now to fix things now that it's out in the open.)
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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.
Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement? I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged. If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs. It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement. If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.
+1 I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to. She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness. That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?
Yeah so I guess I can see why she connects them internally. In her mind sex is something she wants to wait til engagement on and having no/an extremely low sex drive with her views on how it can be hurtful as well as good causes her to respond with-well I want to have sex but I want to be chosen first. We have counselling tonight and I'll try to raise it but that's generally been her response. I mean If we had discussed it sooner maybe we could have come to some sort of agreement but now she feels like it's been so long and we've been together so long that it should be time to get married/engaged and she's always seen that as a goal>moving forward and something she wanted to do before thinking of kids and such. I know social pressure has made her feel this way, but for some reason this is so inherent to her self worth-how I choose her to be a wife.
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It's really good that you are finally having these conversations, even though it should have started earlier. Just because you've accepted not having sex for the past few years, doesn't mean you want to go without it for the rest of your life, which clearly you don't. She doesn't seem to understand that, or she just wants to get engaged so bad that she doesn't care. Engagement should mean the intention to get married, and getting married should mean the intention to stay together for the rest of your lives. It is critical to make the right decision, and not move it along just because you're supposed to, or you're at that age, or you live together anyway, or whatever easy justification you find. If you don't go into this wholeheartedly, knowing that it's what you want, you will probably end up regretting it, and it'll be that much harder to change your mind later. What's to stop her from moving the goalposts after engagement to saying that she'll try to have sex - after the marriage? She seems to be making it clear that she doesn't really care what your needs are - she just wants a ring, and she doesn't seem to care about your reservations. That should raise serious red flags.
She doesn't seem to be able to feel how important it is and that shows me she just isn't as interested/it isn't as important to it. It would be harder to change my mind-i've asked her what would a engagement with reservations be? not honest in my opinion. She wants to know WHAT I need to feel ready to get engaged and it's not like one answer. She hates feeling pressured in this way as she doesn't know if she can feel the emotions (not just do the act but actually get a libido). I think every time we talk about it she takes it as compounding stress vs actually considering the options of waiting to get engaged until we work this out.
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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.
Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement? I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged. If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs. It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement. If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.
She seems to view it as something she wanted to wait until engagement to work on for whatever internal principals/beliefs. I don't want to say it was "testing to see if i'd leave" or anything like that-I just think her actual conception of sex changed early on and any physical hindrances (BC for years) certainly doesn't provide any actual feelings for her to apply to changing that.
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Engagement is not a goal. Marriage is not a goal. They are not things to "work toward." They are things that happen organically when both of you feel completely happy with your relationship and cannot imagine doing anything else. There's no time frame. There's no "well, we've been together for this long, so it's time to get married." Dating is a time to get to know each other and see if you're compatible for marriage. It seems like you've spent an overly long time figuring out that the answer is no. Good friends, maybe. Lovers and partners for life, no.
What's next? "We've been married X years, so it's time to start having kids"?! Or "We need to really solidify our marriage by having a kid." Or "Kid #1 is X years old, so it's time to have Kid #2." That's fine if you both want kids and if you both feel the timing is right, but you can't live your life according to some sort of agenda.
I feel like if getting married at some point in your life is something you want-it should be a goal. Rather said-dating with intent-the goal is to see if you are compatible enough to get married. I understand people want kids too and those are goals to them as well.
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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.
Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement? I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged. If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs. It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement. If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.
+1 I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to. She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness. That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?
Yeah so I guess I can see why she connects them internally. In her mind sex is something she wants to wait til engagement on and having no/an extremely low sex drive with her views on how it can be hurtful as well as good causes her to respond with-well I want to have sex but I want to be chosen first. We have counselling tonight and I'll try to raise it but that's generally been her response. I mean If we had discussed it sooner maybe we could have come to some sort of agreement but now she feels like it's been so long and we've been together so long that it should be time to get married/engaged and she's always seen that as a goal>moving forward and something she wanted to do before thinking of kids and such. I know social pressure has made her feel this way, but for some reason this is so inherent to her self worth-how I choose her to be a wife.
You keep doing this redirect, into how she feels and why she feels that way. It's great that you understand her feelings, but that's not the point we're trying to make. Your feelings matter too, and she is showing no regard for you. You've said you are unhappy and have a need for a physical relationship, and she (and frequently you, as well) immediately pivot to HER feelings and justifications and "I'll think about meeting your needs if you just do this for me first..." That is not healthy. She's not interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy," she is only interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy enough to marry her." Do you see the difference?
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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.
Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement? I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged. If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs. It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement. If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.
+1 I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to. She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness. That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?
Yeah so I guess I can see why she connects them internally. In her mind sex is something she wants to wait til engagement on and having no/an extremely low sex drive with her views on how it can be hurtful as well as good causes her to respond with-well I want to have sex but I want to be chosen first. We have counselling tonight and I'll try to raise it but that's generally been her response. I mean If we had discussed it sooner maybe we could have come to some sort of agreement but now she feels like it's been so long and we've been together so long that it should be time to get married/engaged and she's always seen that as a goal>moving forward and something she wanted to do before thinking of kids and such. I know social pressure has made her feel this way, but for some reason this is so inherent to her self worth-how I choose her to be a wife.
You keep doing this redirect, into how she feels and why she feels that way. It's great that you understand her feelings, but that's not the point we're trying to make. Your feelings matter too, and she is showing no regard for you. You've said you are unhappy and have a need for a physical relationship, and she (and frequently you, as well) immediately pivot to HER feelings and justifications and "I'll think about meeting your needs if you just do this for me first..." That is not healthy. She's not interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy," she is only interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy enough to marry her." Do you see the difference?
I tried extra hard to hit 100 posts so I could reply here.
Just wanted to say, Raenia is right. You are doing a very good job at explaining her feelings to us. But, you don't address what almost everyone here is saying, which is that she seems to really be ignoring what you have to say.
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Ok, time to get completely serious with my comments: You should tell your girlfriend to get a dog for companionship. Then, you should dump her and date somebody else. Everybody's problems get solved and everyone gets what they really want.
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I understand you’re both hoping her low libido is because of the BC, but the bigger problem is that it doesn’t sound like she wants to want a healthy, fulfilling, exciting, loving sexual relationship with you. People who have medical reasons for no/low libido can still want to be physically intimate, to connect with their partner, to demonstrate their love and passion for each other. If she doesn’t want to want you, the BC change will not make any positive difference for your relationship.
So, maybe instead of expressing your desire/need to establish a physical relationship, you should ask point blank if she wants to feel differently about your sex life. If she’s fine without even desiring a sexual relationship, you’ll never be happy together because you’re incompatible. Not bad. Not damaged. Not unlovable. Just incompatible. Really good friends who care about each other and have fun together and cherish the time you spent together before moving on to find compatible partners.
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I was trying to find a way to be more delicate, but this:
Ok, time to get completely serious with my comments: You should tell your girlfriend to get a dog for companionship. Then, you should dump her and date somebody else. Everybody's problems get solved and everyone gets what they really want.
is pretty much exactly what I think, too.
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I think what we’re having trouble understanding is how much the other persons need for one thing is. She thinks the goal should be moving to engagement. I think the goal should be establishing sex and intimacy in our relationship. She thinks of that as a goal as well-but not a critical goal as opposed to the idea of getting married. That seems to be her end goal. Explaining that our relationship will not work long term and such without that aspect almost seems to fall on deaf ears-or the logic that “why not we’ve been together this long without it and if you don’t feel like we’re ready for marriage now just as the people we are-then when”? I think I’ve allowed her to be happy and comfortable and not express my own unhappiness in this aspect-but it’s hard to express the exact magnitude of why it’s important to me and why I need it before committing further. She asks “what do I need to get on board with engagement” as if it’s just a task/feels like I’m just testing her for engagement (do x y and z and we can get engaged) but I kind of feels the same (get engaged and I’ll start the sex). To me it’s not a simple answer, I want to know if she can restablish a sex drive or feelings in that way towards me and that’s just not something that is easy or short term to do. I think I need to better define what I need.
Have you ever had a conversation with your friend about your need for a sex life which hasn't then become a discussion about engagement? I'm concerned that it seems as though every time you talk about your needs, your friend turns the conversation to her needs - that is, your need for a sex life is immediately then turned into a discussion of how that relates to her wish to get engaged. If so, that's a big red flag to me, that she is not truly into considering your needs as independent of her needs or as important as her needs. It seems as though she is just seeing your needs as being a (temporary?) impediment to her wish for an engagement. If so, then she is displaying a pretty fundamental lack of respect for you - she is seeing you as a means to an end rather than a person whose happiness is as important to her as is her own.
+1 I've started to reply several times and just couldn't get the words to work, but former player said what I wanted to. She does not seem to care about your needs and happiness except as they relate to her needs and happiness. That is not the mindset of a person who loves and respects you. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person who doesn't think your feelings are as important as her own?
Yeah so I guess I can see why she connects them internally. In her mind sex is something she wants to wait til engagement on and having no/an extremely low sex drive with her views on how it can be hurtful as well as good causes her to respond with-well I want to have sex but I want to be chosen first. We have counselling tonight and I'll try to raise it but that's generally been her response. I mean If we had discussed it sooner maybe we could have come to some sort of agreement but now she feels like it's been so long and we've been together so long that it should be time to get married/engaged and she's always seen that as a goal>moving forward and something she wanted to do before thinking of kids and such. I know social pressure has made her feel this way, but for some reason this is so inherent to her self worth-how I choose her to be a wife.
You keep doing this redirect, into how she feels and why she feels that way. It's great that you understand her feelings, but that's not the point we're trying to make. Your feelings matter too, and she is showing no regard for you. You've said you are unhappy and have a need for a physical relationship, and she (and frequently you, as well) immediately pivot to HER feelings and justifications and "I'll think about meeting your needs if you just do this for me first..." That is not healthy. She's not interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy," she is only interested in fixing the problem "You are not happy enough to marry her." Do you see the difference?
Yes.
OP, I don’t get the feeling she has really ever said, “I hear that sex is something you need in a life partner, and I understand that and respect that,” without qualifying it.
Instead, what it seems she keeps doing is redirecting to her, making the fact that you want regular sex as a part of your marriage not something that you need — and therefore something that is important, because it is important to you — but rather something that hurts her feelings.
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^Agreed.
Not only is she completely failing to respect and validate your needs, she turns your needs into some kind of attack on her, which is unhealthy.
Also, her "need" isn't a need at all.
There is no need to get engaged. She thinks she has a need to get engaged, but it's nonsense. What she needs is to feel secure and wanted as she is.
Well, an engagement WILL NOT do that for her. I 100% guarantee this. Thinking that it will is also nonsense.
As well, you don't actually want her as she is. The simple truth is that if she is fundamentally asexual, she's not really what you want, which is OKAY.
Deep, deep, deep down, I think she knows this and I think this is why she's so fixated on you "committing" to her, because she's convinced herself that if you propose, then this fundamental problem in your relationship isn't going to actually be a problem.
Well...that's not how it works.
Again, engagement won't fix anything. In fact, both engagement and marriage will absolutely make this problem worse. Several of us have told you that. Take the warning seriously.
Also, where is her "need" for an engagement even coming from??? It doesn't sound like she's super religious, so what?? Social pressure? Expectation? Does her "need" to get married have literally anything to do with you really? I got engaged because at that age the pressure is overwhelming. That's a completely invalid reason to get engaged, and I feel like a proper idiot in retrospect.
Her "need" for an engagement isn't a need at all, it's a desperate illusion that it will magically make her feel better about something that you CANNOT fix for her.
Meanwhile, your needs are actual, simple, human biological needs that are 100% reasonable...and she doesn't seem to give a shit about them.
Her response "well, we've been fine all along, I don't get why it's an issue now" and "if you need sex, then I need an engagement to even try" and "that hurts my feelings"
She seems to show literally no validation or recognition of your needs or even emotional experience.
What's worse, as several people have pointed out, is that even *you* don't seem to give your own emotions and experience much weight. You're here arguing over and over and over for her side of things. You've barely even touched on your own experience. It's...unsettling to read.
All of this points to a relationship that just isn't as good and healthy as you seem to think it is. It's not just sex that's missing from your relationship, it's communication and mutual respect. As in, it's missing virtually ALL of the cornerstones of a good relationship.
You guys are really great friends. That's it.
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If you don't think you can manage a life without sex and all that entails, then this is not a relationship you can stay in. From reading the thread, your partner seems completely unable or unwilling to accept that reasonably regular sex is, for you, an essential component of a life together. "Maybe things would get better if you proposed" is not a serious suggestion: it's sex as a bargaining chip, which is horribly emotionally unhealthy.
If you have a high libido, and your partner has a very low libido or none, then you need to be comfortable with the idea of having sex perhaps a dozen times in the rest of your life. You need to be comfortable with the idea of logging onto Pornhub to release tension every time your partner is out of the house for a few hours. You need to be comfortable with changing the way you socialise to avoid any risk that someone cute takes a shine to you when your partner isn't around. And once you propose, knowing that it's quite possible her libido will never change, you need to be comfortable with never directing your frustration at your partner for continuing to live exactly as she has for the last several years.
If you're comfortable with that, and you think you can live a happy life like that, then go ahead. But don't go down that road unless you're sure you're willing to live at the end of it.
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4th Counseling session last night. That was a doozy.
I think both of us are so tired of talking about the negatives and the unhappiness. She feels like she's "failed" me through our relationship and can only explain her desire to be married as something she wants for multiple reasons (commitment, the promise of sharing a life together no matter what, etc etc). On here it's easy to say marriage isn't a goal but she's been thinking about it for years.
A breakthrough was that she does realize she has to change if she wants to keep me. That's wearing on her hard because she feels it's a ton of pressure and vulnerability to go back on these ideas that we would wait until engagement-especially now still trying to realize that I haven't been thinking about marriage and such with how long we've been together. It's hard to say as I guess I have kind of thought about it but it's never been a goal or focus-I figured if we both wanted it to happen some day it would happen-but that requires a happy relationship and life circumstances. She says if we do start having sex and she lets herself go in that way it's going to suck way more from her point of view (self esteem etc) if we break up-because that's just kind of a rejection of her.
She's still wanting me to order the ring despite me saying without the promise of engagement or intention of it-it's just a item. She says it represents my dedication to wanting to get married in her mind/determination that we're both working towards that. That was the biggest source of conflict last night as she feels i'm just not giving anything towards that goal while she has to fundamentally change herself if she wants to try to stay with me.
We talked about children at the session as well. She wants them and it's a deal breaker not too. I don't know how I feel about them and don't know if i'll want them or not-the irony is it's pretty much how I feel about sex/intamacy. She still doesn't think she can offer more emotionally aside from the physical recconect of sex/establish that it's something we both like and to try to make it more frequent from there-but that's also something that she associates with us advancing our relationship towards marriage. It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship. It seems to her that by not saying I want to get married/don't know how i'll feel if we establish intimacy-i'm giving myself an out and no real thought or respect or her want to get married.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
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4th Counseling session last night. That was a doozy.
I think both of us are so tired of talking about the negatives and the unhappiness. She feels like she's "failed" me through our relationship and can only explain her desire to be married as something she wants for multiple reasons (commitment, the promise of sharing a life together no matter what, etc etc). On here it's easy to say marriage isn't a goal but she's been thinking about it for years.
A breakthrough was that she does realize she has to change if she wants to keep me. That's wearing on her hard because she feels it's a ton of pressure and vulnerability to go back on these ideas that we would wait until engagement-especially now still trying to realize that I haven't been thinking about marriage and such with how long we've been together. It's hard to say as I guess I have kind of thought about it but it's never been a goal or focus-I figured if we both wanted it to happen some day it would happen-but that requires a happy relationship and life circumstances. She says if we do start having sex and she lets herself go in that way it's going to suck way more from her point of view (self esteem etc) if we break up-because that's just kind of a rejection of her.
She's still wanting me to order the ring despite me saying without the promise of engagement or intention of it-it's just a item. She says it represents my dedication to wanting to get married in her mind/determination that we're both working towards that. That was the biggest source of conflict last night as she feels i'm just not giving anything towards that goal while she has to fundamentally change herself if she wants to try to stay with me.
We talked about children at the session as well. She wants them and it's a deal breaker not too. I don't know how I feel about them and don't know if i'll want them or not-the irony is it's pretty much how I feel about sex/intamacy. She still doesn't think she can offer more emotionally aside from the physical recconect of sex/establish that it's something we both like and to try to make it more frequent from there-but that's also something that she associates with us advancing our relationship towards marriage. It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship. It seems to her that by not saying I want to get married/don't know how i'll feel if we establish intimacy-i'm giving myself an out and no real thought or respect or her want to get married.
So she doesn’t want to start having sex because her partner has a need for it. She only wants to have sex if it will get her the marriage she wants.
Ugh.
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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.
I agree. Ugh.
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4th Counseling session last night. That was a doozy.
I think both of us are so tired of talking about the negatives and the unhappiness. She feels like she's "failed" me through our relationship and can only explain her desire to be married as something she wants for multiple reasons (commitment, the promise of sharing a life together no matter what, etc etc). On here it's easy to say marriage isn't a goal but she's been thinking about it for years.
A breakthrough was that she does realize she has to change if she wants to keep me. That's wearing on her hard because she feels it's a ton of pressure and vulnerability to go back on these ideas that we would wait until engagement-especially now still trying to realize that I haven't been thinking about marriage and such with how long we've been together. It's hard to say as I guess I have kind of thought about it but it's never been a goal or focus-I figured if we both wanted it to happen some day it would happen-but that requires a happy relationship and life circumstances. She says if we do start having sex and she lets herself go in that way it's going to suck way more from her point of view (self esteem etc) if we break up-because that's just kind of a rejection of her.
She's still wanting me to order the ring despite me saying without the promise of engagement or intention of it-it's just a item. She says it represents my dedication to wanting to get married in her mind/determination that we're both working towards that. That was the biggest source of conflict last night as she feels i'm just not giving anything towards that goal while she has to fundamentally change herself if she wants to try to stay with me.
We talked about children at the session as well. She wants them and it's a deal breaker not too. I don't know how I feel about them and don't know if i'll want them or not-the irony is it's pretty much how I feel about sex/intamacy. She still doesn't think she can offer more emotionally aside from the physical recconect of sex/establish that it's something we both like and to try to make it more frequent from there-but that's also something that she associates with us advancing our relationship towards marriage. It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship. It seems to her that by not saying I want to get married/don't know how i'll feel if we establish intimacy-i'm giving myself an out and no real thought or respect or her want to get married.
I'm sorry to say it, but she's not mature enough for an adult relationship, let alone marriage or children. She wants an invincible guarantee of security in a relationship. That is not possible, especially when she's showing no interest or willingness to do the things that make relationships more secure--intimacy, communication, compassion for your partner's needs.
She wants you to buy an engagement ring without actually getting an engaged? Is she hoping that once you have the ring you'll want to propose? She is bullying you on this point. You don't want to get engaged and she's pushing you to buy a ring. Hell, why doesn't she propose to you if she wants it that bad? She's manipulating you.
This relationship isn't just codependent. It's toxic and one-sided. For your own mental health and happiness, I really hope you make the difficult choice of breaking up, getting her out of your home, and doing some deep inner work to discover your own needs and worth as a person. You're worth it.
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I think if she had told me earlier *much earlier* her goals to be married and her views on waiting until marraige/engagement to have sex again-I think this would be easier to sort out.
Unfortunately it accumulated to her being ready and feeling like i must be ready (because hey our relationship is great from her standpoint and thus i'm happy too) and now she thinks there's something wrong with her/wants to fix the reason I'm giving her that I don't feel ready for marriage. She doesn't see how she can work on the relationship and get a legitimate answer of when/what will make me ready for marriage-which makes her feel frustrated and unable to see what she should do. He actual happiness is being derived from being engaged.
I keep telling her I don't know when I can feel ready for marriage as she understandably wants to know (she has been and is ready)-and it just hurts her every time because it feels like a direct rejection of her. She wants to have sex before engagement/marriage but she's holding onto that-and considering how long she's wanted to be married/seen that goal (at least 4 years or so) It's not possible for her to just ignore that and focus on fixing a relationship. She feels if I don't know by now, and won't possibly know when x happens.....then when? And I can understand that.
I said "I feel like your need to be engaged is more important than the need to fix our relationship" but she said it's not. It's hard to explain though-I think she views them as things that can happen together or can correlate and link together/in tandem but I can't know that.
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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.
I agree. Ugh.
To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc).
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God, but this is sad to read.
Your partner has some severe self-esteem issues. On top of that, she has essentially zero libido. And on top of that again, she's fixated on the idea that a physical marker of "commitment" will solve all of your relationship issues. This is wildly unhealthy.
This idea that she's doing all the work is, to put it politely, dead wrong. You've expressed a legitimate concern with your relationship as it stands, and her reaction to this has been to suggest that maybe getting engaged will solve it. Nothing else. She's not "doing all the work": she hasn't done anything so far, and having a healthy sexual relationship should not be "work" to start with.
As for the heavy implication that she'll be even more crushed if she starts having sex and you then break up, it'll be even worse for her: this is simply not a healthy relationship or anything close to it. Everything you're describing is indicative of a desire on her part to get an engagement ring and a husband without having to concede or change anything. She wants you to link yourself more tightly to her without her accepting any need to work on something you've clearly identified as a sticking point for you, beyond the vague suggestion that her libido might return if you buy a ring.
I said it above, and I'll say it again. If you buy a ring, if you propose, you are essentially confirming to your partner that things are alright as they are and that vague hints that maybe sex will make a return are enough for you. Listen to the overwhelming majority of voices here: you have made it clear that your lack of a sex life is a deal-breaker for you, and she is actively refusing to even start working on it unless you buy an engagement ring. Walk away, and let her work through whatever issues and problems she has in her own time. Your own future happiness is on the line here, and while your empathy is admirable, nobody is going to act as an advocate for your interests except you. Call time on the relationship and find someone who can deal with differing expectations without demanding a ring or a proposal.
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Yeah, this is a lot to happen out of the blue! But it is a fundamental difference. The important thing is whether you both feel this is worth pursuing and having a life together. Marriage and kids and sex are pretty important to be on the same page.
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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.
I agree. Ugh.
To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc).
A healthy sex life should not be a chore for your partner. What you're seeking is absolutely reasonable and entirely fair, while withholding any willingness to work towards that until an engagement ring is produced is emotional blackmail.
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what it comes down to is that you do not want to give her what she wants (reasonable) and she does not want to give you what you want (also reasonable). Thats fine. Stop trying to find what you want in each other, break up, and go be free and happy to find that elsewhere. She does not understand that having sex is a fundamental part of a relationship to you, and does not want to give you that simply because she loves you...no, she wants to give you that IF you want to marry her. That's totally fine, for her, but in the past 6 pages of thread you have expressed that it doesn't work like that for you.
It really is simple, your priorities are not aligned, and now it sounds like kids are being thrown in as another thing that you do not align on. I would kindly separate the relationship, move on, and do some self work, and also figure out the qualities you desire in a life long partner.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?
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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.
I agree. Ugh.
To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc).
Actually, there is very little in this whole long thread that tells me that what you want is to have a sexual relationship with this woman and to marry her. We've heard a whole lot about what she wants, and very little about what you want (other than for you sex and marriage go together - which is the most normal thing I've found in this whole thread). The fact that the two of you have shared a house/bed for the last six years without having sex pretty much tells me that she is not the one for you and never will be.
Also, look at this from your friend's point of view: she had a relationship lasting a few months when she was 18. That relationship ended (for good reasons) and has never been re-established - the friendship between you was re-established, but not the relationship. Now, 6 years later, she is saying that she expects marriage, and has done so for a long time but without actually telling you so (or, as Cool Friend points out, actually doing the hard work and asking you). That looks pretty crazy to me - she has been building castles in the sky for years, and is now trying to guilt you into building them for her.
I think the worst thing you can do is persist with this fantasy that there is a relationship between the two of you that could lead to marriage. Please, for your sake and hers you need to put an end to this untenable situation and set both of you free to make better lives for yourselves, separately. Forget the cruise (sunk cost), move out of the same bedroom if you are still in it, and set a deadline for one or other of you leaving the house you are sharing (and if she is the one who stays, she pays you full market rent, no excuses).
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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.
I agree. Ugh.
To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc).
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. NO!
The two are not AT ALL comparable and it's bonkers to think that they are.
She is looking for guarantees that you cannot give her.
You are asking for her to try and work on meeting your reasonable needs.
If you can't meet her needs emotionally, the answer is for her to fucking leave you, not to try and bully you into a bullshit fake promise of security that literally means nothing and that WILL make her feel worse in the end.
You are honestly telling her what your needs are and that you are concerned about a long-term future with her if your needs aren't met.
There's a goddamn difference and it's infuriating that you can't even see that for yourself.
Honestly, you are now arguing with strangers on the internet against your own best interest. That's the biggest red flag in this whole cluster fuck.
Countless people have expressed heartfelt and serious concern for you and you've all but totally disregarded every single comment that relates to you in any way shape or form.
The biggest defense of your well being should not be coming from people who don't even know you and have no reason to care. If that doesn't jolt you awake, I have no idea what will.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?
All of those reasons are about her, not about you. You are still redirecting, and allowing her to redirect. That is not a positive. That is very much a negative. She has not tried at all to see this through your lens, to validate your feelings, or try to understand what you need to be happy. Note I said to be happy, not to marry her. She is only interested in what you need to marry her, not in making you happy. You should not marry someone who does not want to make you happy.
Please, please, read and reread all the advice we have given you. Stop defending her, and start defending yourself.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?
She doesn't have a need to be married, she has a fixation on marriage as a solution to her problems and she is fundamentally and critically wrong.
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I feel this needs to be said:
If there were a reliable betting market for this kind of thing, and you came back in six months to say you'd proposed and were now having reasonably regular sex, I'd put a decade's worth of pension contributions on the sex drying up again once the wedding was done.
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As other have said, she has a self-esteem issue that her self-worth is tied up being engaged/married as indicators of her self-worth. I honestly think that you two separating would be best for both you and her in the long term. You could find someone who doesn't find loving up on someone they care about as a chore. And even if it is hard and tough, she will learn to see herself as an individual with a self-worth SEPARATE from your relationship or commitment level. Honestly if you love and care for her as a person, the best thing to do is separate so she can do that work. It's not going to happen with you two emmeshed like this.
Think of the alternative. You get engaged, you end up breaking up either before or even after you are married (for obvious fundamental differences). Now emotionally, mentally ALL her eggs are in one basket, she hasn't developed resilience and identity separate from being a "happily married" part of a couple. That's a worse fate to put her through.
You are young and both of you will survive this. Both of you have some growing up to do.
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As other have said, she has a self-esteem issue that her self-worth is tied up being engaged/married as indicators of her self-worth. I honestly think that you two separating would be best for both you and her in the long term. You could find someone who doesn't find loving up on someone they care about as a chore. And even if it is hard and tough, she will learn to see herself as an individual with a self-worth SEPARATE from your relationship or commitment level. Honestly if you love and care for her as a person, the best thing to do is separate so she can do that work. It's not going to happen with you two emmeshed like this.
Think of the alternative. You get engaged, you end up breaking up either before or even after you are married (for obvious fundamental differences). Now emotionally, mentally ALL her eggs are in one basket, she hasn't developed resilience and identity separate from being a "happily married" part of a couple. That's a worse fate to put her through.
You are young and both of you will survive this. Both of you have some growing up to do.
100% agreed.
I think given everything you have shared, there is no healthy way for her to move forward with you.
She will get hurt and I think you will end up feeling like an asshole for hurting her.
The most loving thing you can do is leave her and tell her that you want her to work on herself, for herself.
In fact, the only reasons I see for you staying with her at this point are highly selfish ones. If you truly understand where she is coming from the way you say that you do, then deep down, you know there is no path forward that doesn't further traumatize her.
You know this.
Man up and do the right thing. Give her the only chance she has to actually heal as a human being.
Let her go.
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You have heard it from so many people -- you and this woman are not compatible in terms of life partnership
Right now you're just torturing each other trying to figure out how you can take this thing that you don't want, and change it into something you do. Just stop. Stop torturing each other. Rip off the band-aid and move on. It will suck in the short term but in the long term, you'll both be free to find someone who suits you better.
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You are at an impasse. You've spent seven years in limbo. You can no longer "agree to disagree".
If either of you "gives in" to the other, the relationship will eventually end. Whoever "gives in" will resent the other for the remainder of the relationship.
Solid relationships are founded in trust and both partners wanting to give the other whatever makes them feel happy and safe. If you are not meeting each others wants and needs, it is time to move on and find partners who will.
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She also wants guarantees that are impossible to give.
I agree. Ugh.
To be fair we both do. I want to reestablish sexual compatibility which she doesn't know if she can/can feel like that-especially since so much of her worth and feeling good about herself has been tied to me choosing to spend the rest of my life with her. When you break it down it is a choice (either a good one or a bad one depending on how much I care about my own needs/etc).
Actually, there is very little in this whole long thread that tells me that what you want is to have a sexual relationship with this woman and to marry her. We've heard a whole lot about what she wants, and very little about what you want (other than for you sex and marriage go together - which is the most normal thing I've found in this whole thread). The fact that the two of you have shared a house/bed for the last six years without having sex pretty much tells me that she is not the one for you and never will be.
Also, look at this from your friend's point of view: she had a relationship lasting a few months when she was 18. That relationship ended (for good reasons) and has never been re-established - the friendship between you was re-established, but not the relationship. Now, 6 years later, she is saying that she expects marriage, and has done so for a long time but without actually telling you so (or, as Cool Friend points out, actually doing the hard work and asking you). That looks pretty crazy to me - she has been building castles in the sky for years, and is now trying to guilt you into building them for her.
I think the worst thing you can do is persist with this fantasy that there is a relationship between the two of you that could lead to marriage. Please, for your sake and hers you need to put an end to this untenable situation and set both of you free to make better lives for yourselves, separately. Forget the cruise (sunk cost), move out of the same bedroom if you are still in it, and set a deadline for one or other of you leaving the house you are sharing (and if she is the one who stays, she pays you full market rent, no excuses).
I guess you're right. I've been looking at this more of how I can establish myself feeling the way she does about our relationship and that has led to reflection on things I'm missing (whether I'm aware of them or not).
She's definitely been relying on expectations and hopes and a blind commitment for a long time. Now she is trying to get me up to the same level and we're both understanding that it's not just something we can force.
I could get the cruise refunded but not the flights. That being said I've told her i'd rather she go with a friend/sister or such and still take the trip as I feel it'd be good to have time apart to better sort our feelings out. She has repeatedly said she does want to go with me but i'm thinking it's just holding on to the idea we can still get to engagement/not letting go of that.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?
All of those reasons are about her, not about you. You are still redirecting, and allowing her to redirect. That is not a positive. That is very much a negative. She has not tried at all to see this through your lens, to validate your feelings, or try to understand what you need to be happy. Note I said to be happy, not to marry her. She is only interested in what you need to marry her, not in making you happy. You should not marry someone who does not want to make you happy.
Please, please, read and reread all the advice we have given you. Stop defending her, and start defending yourself.
Right these are absolutely my needs. And I can't help but feel guilty to a degree about having this need to be happy in a relationship that I am currently in and have been in. I should not feel guilty for what I need-but in the context of her feelings how she's able to feel through what she deems as important-it's just something that in the past I have been able to set aside for her happiness and in doing that deemed it as a viable relationship to her.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?
She doesn't have a need to be married, she has a fixation on marriage as a solution to her problems and she is fundamentally and critically wrong.
Right; but how do you talk to someone who believes that it is the right option? Because any no" is seen as rejection. It's not seen as logical or as anything other than a personal affront and it is a need for her in that way. Whether or not she's right or wrong doesn't really play into her personal needs; just the reasoning behind them.
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Ugh.
Yea, I think I got to that same point about 48 hours before you and Kris did.
This whole scenario is fucked up and depressing and it looks to me like both parties are going to be miserable and there's not a damn thing anyone here can do about it. They are young and foolish, and needlessly torturing themselves in some sort of twisted codependent emotional BDSM game in which they take turns making each other cry. That's not love. That's not even fun. I don't see any possible future for these two that doesn't involve years of resentment.
We should go back to watching JoJo's "will they won't they" relationship thread. That was also excruciatingly painful, and seemed equivalently hopeless, but at least it was funny in a sort of dark and twisted way.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?
She doesn't have a need to be married, she has a fixation on marriage as a solution to her problems and she is fundamentally and critically wrong.
Right; but how do you talk to someone who believes that it is the right option? Because any no" is seen as rejection. It's not seen as logical or as anything other than a personal affront and it is a need for her in that way. Whether or not she's right or wrong doesn't really play into her personal needs; just the reasoning behind them.
Unfortunately, for reasons you see very clearly, you can't.
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As other have said, she has a self-esteem issue that her self-worth is tied up being engaged/married as indicators of her self-worth. I honestly think that you two separating would be best for both you and her in the long term. You could find someone who doesn't find loving up on someone they care about as a chore. And even if it is hard and tough, she will learn to see herself as an individual with a self-worth SEPARATE from your relationship or commitment level. Honestly if you love and care for her as a person, the best thing to do is separate so she can do that work. It's not going to happen with you two emmeshed like this.
Think of the alternative. You get engaged, you end up breaking up either before or even after you are married (for obvious fundamental differences). Now emotionally, mentally ALL her eggs are in one basket, she hasn't developed resilience and identity separate from being a "happily married" part of a couple. That's a worse fate to put her through.
You are young and both of you will survive this. Both of you have some growing up to do.
I don't know if it's a self esteem issue or just something that's always been something she needs for higher validation of choosing the correct relationship/will always desire and want. She knows she does want to be married and is willing to do anything to make that happen-but I don't want her to act certain ways JUST to want me to marry her and that's something we have a hard time speaking about. She sees it as "well if i don't then we didn't try and we just break up and we never got to see what if"? I know we're emotionally attached and compatible to at least some degree because we've been together this long.
I've absolutely explained the breaking up engagement/marriage would be worse to our relationship in my mind than a relationship now; and she's compounded that by saying if we broke up after we did start having sex it would be much harder on her but it's something she's willing to do if i need it in the relationship/as long as our goals are both marriage.
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You've been told the answer repeatedly, but maybe it needs to be spelled out.
You talk to her by telling her the relationship is over.
Absolutely nobody on this thread sees any realistic prospect of this working out. She has issues that will not be solved by a proposal or a wedding, and is utterly unwilling to address them. She has responded to your entirely reasonable expectations by engaging in thinly disguised emotional blackmail and the use of sex as a bargaining chip. There is no happy ending for the two of you as a couple: you need to pull the plug so that you can find someone who won't do those things, and so that she can figure out what the absolute hell she's doing.
End it. For your sake and for hers, end it. You're both miserable right now, and there is no basis for any hope that will change.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?
She doesn't have a need to be married, she has a fixation on marriage as a solution to her problems and she is fundamentally and critically wrong.
Right; but how do you talk to someone who believes that it is the right option? Because any no" is seen as rejection. It's not seen as logical or as anything other than a personal affront and it is a need for her in that way. Whether or not she's right or wrong doesn't really play into her personal needs; just the reasoning behind them.
Unfortunately, for reasons you see very clearly, you can't.
She's getting hurt here no matter how I explain my side. She's getting hurt and thinking of ways she can fix me to get to her point. So there is no real right way to navigate this that caters to both our feelings without making one or both of us feel wrong/hurting the other.
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Exactly. You cannot avoid hurting her.* Breaking up will be difficult and painful for both of you, no doubt about it. But every day this goes on becomes more and more difficult. The sooner you do it, the more pain you will save her--and more importantly, yourself--from.
*should add that the pain of not getting engaged is self-inflicted pain on her part, due to her completely unrealistic expectations.
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It's not possible to have a conversation without marriage involving sex because it comes back to-if i never want to get married/never get there than why open up in that way I think? Like she wants to change herself-but she wants to feel like she's doing it with purpose towards how she views advancing our relationship.
To paraphrase the bolded: She wants to be doing it for herself. She does not want to be doing it for you.
This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. She has no interest in opening up to make you happy. Full stop. She only has an interest if it advances her own agenda. She is making it extraordinarily clear that your happiness is not a concern for her in its own right, only for how it can get her what she wants. She is being 100% selfish here. She's demanding unconditional love and commitment from you, but she is not offering the same in return. Do you see why this does not look like a healthy, mutually respectful, loving relationship to us?
She has said she wants to do it to allow herself to let go of her reservations and expectations as they really are kind of roadblocks in our relationship-but yes she's doing it for her idea of how us should be to a degree as well. She's doing it because she has this need to be married and she's accepted that her as she is won't do it. That to me is a positive. She's frustrated though as she sees it as her being the only one that has to change and doesn't understand why i can't make any sort of effort towards marriage/engagement with her newfound willingness to give up on her principals. I think the difference is I don't know what exactly would get me to the point of engagement. I only know what our relationship has been missing and how that's made me feel. I've told her this and it's a similar thing. She's felt like she's missing a shared view of the future and it's made her feel uncertain and such. They're interwoven in that she can't disconnect the importance of my needs as something separate from our relationship/her needs in said relationship. I mean I understand-why waste time trying to get someone to share your point of view/share your feeling of commitment if you don't know if they ever will?
She doesn't have a need to be married, she has a fixation on marriage as a solution to her problems and she is fundamentally and critically wrong.
Right; but how do you talk to someone who believes that it is the right option? Because any no" is seen as rejection. It's not seen as logical or as anything other than a personal affront and it is a need for her in that way. Whether or not she's right or wrong doesn't really play into her personal needs; just the reasoning behind them.
Unfortunately, for reasons you see very clearly, you can't.
She's getting hurt here no matter how I explain my side. She's getting hurt and thinking of ways she can fix me to get to her point. So there is no real right way to navigate this that caters to both our feelings without making one or both of us feel wrong/hurting the other.
The right way to navigate this is to say "I'm sorry, but this isn't working for either of us. I know it hurts to end things, but it will hurt more if we drag it out longer. There's nothing either of us can say or do to fix things. This is it."
Every possible outcome at this point includes both of you hurting. That's inevitable. You both feel wrong because you are both at fault for allowing it to reach this stage. That doesn't change the inevitability of the end. All you can do now is allow the grief to happen so you can both start to move on.
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She's getting hurt here no matter how I explain my side. She's getting hurt and thinking of ways she can fix me to get to her point. So there is no real right way to navigate this that caters to both our feelings without making one or both of us feel wrong/hurting the other.
When that happens, you have to take care of yourself first and just do the best you can to let her down gently. You can't sign yourself up for a lifetime of putting your own feelings aside in favor of someone else's. To some extent, how much she gets hurt is dependent on how she views things. It's not a crime to break up with someone. It will hurt her in the short term, but she will probably be grateful for it in the long term. Ask anyone who's ever been dumped. It might make you feel like a jerk in the short term, but over time you'll see that you're not a bad person.
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She sees it as "well if i don't then we didn't try and we just break up and we never got to see what if"?
Life is about choices. None of us can ever possibly know the answer to every "what if?", so instead we make choices that optimize our expected current and future happiness. Marriage (and engagement by proxy) is one of those massive choices: will this single person improve my lifetime happiness? Breaking up, though it feels like a big choice, is usually not* in the grand scheme of things: there are a lot of fish in the sea who will be compatible with you. So this is your choice: Are you more likely to be happy in marriage with this person, or to meet and marry someone more compatible with you who you will have no qualms against marrying because you actually want to spend the rest of your life with her? Not knowing you, I'd be willing to bet a decade of my pension savings (to follow the theme from runbikerun) that you will meet somebody much more compatible with you than your current partner, but you have to break up first to answer your "what if?". A lot of other posters shared which words to use to make the break-up as clear and painless as possible.
*The exception is when someone breaks up with a partner who is very compatible due to commitment-phobia or FOMO of all the booty out there, but that is not the case with you two.
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At this point, the only thing worse than ending the relationship is continuing it. By continuing the relationship you are wasting her time and that is the one thing that money cannot buy.
If you love her, cut her loose so that she can find the right person for her before it's too late for her to have kids--one of her stated goals in life. As a man you can have kids in 20 years if you so choose. She can't.
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As other have said, she has a self-esteem issue that her self-worth is tied up being engaged/married as indicators of her self-worth. I honestly think that you two separating would be best for both you and her in the long term. You could find someone who doesn't find loving up on someone they care about as a chore. And even if it is hard and tough, she will learn to see herself as an individual with a self-worth SEPARATE from your relationship or commitment level. Honestly if you love and care for her as a person, the best thing to do is separate so she can do that work. It's not going to happen with you two emmeshed like this.
Think of the alternative. You get engaged, you end up breaking up either before or even after you are married (for obvious fundamental differences). Now emotionally, mentally ALL her eggs are in one basket, she hasn't developed resilience and identity separate from being a "happily married" part of a couple. That's a worse fate to put her through.
You are young and both of you will survive this. Both of you have some growing up to do.
I don't know if it's a self esteem issue or just something that's always been something she needs for higher validation of choosing the correct relationship/will always desire and want. She knows she does want to be married and is willing to do anything to make that happen-but I don't want her to act certain ways JUST to want me to marry her and that's something we have a hard time speaking about. She sees it as "well if i don't then we didn't try and we just break up and we never got to see what if"? I know we're emotionally attached and compatible to at least some degree because we've been together this long.
I've absolutely explained the breaking up engagement/marriage would be worse to our relationship in my mind than a relationship now; and she's compounded that by saying if we broke up after we did start having sex it would be much harder on her but it's something she's willing to do if i need it in the relationship/as long as our goals are both marriage.
You were only compatible with her because you accepted no sex with no questions for 6 years. She was only compatible with you because she never brought up marriage expectations for 6 years. Now that the cat is out of the bag you obviously do not have any more illusions that you are compatible.
Every word you've stated of hers is that her having sex is going to mess her up/ upset her/ destroy her. Don't destroy her.
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Yeah, don't go on the cruise. As you said, she can go, and you can take the time alone to reflect. With these intense discussions happening, it doesn't sound like being cramped together in a ship cabin will be very pleasant anyway.
The problem isn't just sexual incompatibility. It's also her way of arguing, which (as others have noted) seems highly manipulative, with little attempt to appreciate your viewpoint. This doesn't bode well for your future either.
I take back what I said a few thread-pages ago about waiting to see what happens with the BC. She doesn't see the status quo as a problem, doesn't really want to want to change, and is considering your interests only grudgingly. And that's within her rights, but you don't need to be along for the ride anymore.
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When you are young and in love sharing the same bed you shouldn’t be able to keep your hands off of each other. This is not normal.
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I've written and rewritten paragraphs but it all comes down to this:
Don't go on the cruise. Don't get engaged. Don't have sex. Stop living together. Break up.
I'm sorry you've spent so much time in a dysfunctional holding pattern with one another. You may want to look at why that was acceptable to you for so long. But don't make things worse now simply to avoid a difficult conversation.
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When you are young and in love sharing the same bed you shouldn’t be able to keep your hands off of each other. This is not normal.
I try not to superimpose my views on "normal" on other relationships. I agree that it's uncommon.
But it could still work out, if for example they were both happy in an asexual relationship. Or if they worked out some other arrangement where they lived together in marital bliss except one of them regularly paid sex workers for emotionally meaningless sexual release outside of marriage. Or if they had some other kind of sexually open relationship where everyone's needs were met in a way that protected their union. I can even envision a minimally functional scenario in which they compromise on sex once per week at a pre-determined date and time, rain or shine, regardless of desire.
I believe that all marriages become sexless eventually, and that doesn't mean the love has to die. Pray that it's late in life. If you're very very lucky, then some day you will both be confined to side by side hospital beds in your 90s, physically unable to do more than hold hands, and you can still be very much in love at that point in your lives. It's only a matter of time before age and infirmity rob each of us of our sexual abilities, and I wish for all of us a happy and fulfilling relationship long after that day comes. Sex isn't everything.
But when I was in my 20s, it was pretty damn close.
Don't go on the cruise. Don't get engaged. Don't have sex. Stop living together. Break up.
I think everyone here except the OP recognizes that this is good advice, with approximately zero chance of being followed anytime soon. I think these people are doomed to heartbreak. It's just a matter of how many more years they waste before they get there.
On the bright side, they are both much more likely to find what they're looking for after they suffer through that temporary misery. OP is going to have tons of crazy sex with hot girls who are so eager for it he won't be able to keep up. His gf is either going to discover her own sexual liberation, or find happiness with someone else who doesn't care about sex. They'll both be better off after the breakup, some day.
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Yeah, don't go on the cruise. As you said, she can go, and you can take the time alone to reflect. With these intense discussions happening, it doesn't sound like being cramped together in a ship cabin will be very pleasant anyway.
The problem isn't just sexual incompatibility. It's also her way of arguing, which (as others have noted) seems highly manipulative, with little attempt to appreciate your viewpoint. This doesn't bode well for your future either.
I take back what I said a few thread-pages ago about waiting to see what happens with the BC. She doesn't see the status quo as a problem, doesn't really want to want to change, and is considering your interests only grudgingly. And that's within her rights, but you don't need to be along for the ride anymore.
I also take back my same previous advice. Checking to see what happens off BC is only useful if she was actively into/enjoying/desiring sex in the early days of the relationship and is unhappy about not having any desire now or in the future. When the Pill killed my sex drive, I wasn't motivated toward sex anymore, but I was MISERABLE about that. I wanted to want/enjoy sex! Your gf does not seem to prioritize that part of herself (let alone your needs in this regard) in any way at all. Which is FINE, but again, makes her a fundamentally unsuitable partner for you.
But the longer this thread has gone, the more it has become obvious that the sex is just the tip of the iceberg as to your unsuitability for each other as life partners. You don't communicate well. Your gf's self-esteem problems appear to be enormous: she is looking for external validation of her worth (which is unhealthy in and of itself), and further attaching that validation to actions on your part that require to you sacrifice what you want, and FURTHER STILL she is then attaching said requested sacrifices to additional fantastical ideas of 'certainty and security' (which, practically speaking DO NOT EXIST in most areas of life).
You, in turn, appear to have been incredibly passive in asserting your own needs, even though you also seem lukewarm to the whole life-goal concepts of marriage and kids. Based on what you've written, you don't even seem entirely clear on what you want out of marriage, which is a clear signal you shouldn't get married. I suspect that you also might be suffering from self-esteem problems that make you a poor candidate for marriage at this point in life. The two of you appear to be locked in a dysfunctional 'handcuff' dynamic where you stay b/c it's comfortable and b/c you feel guilty for cheating years ago, and she makes you feel like only you can fulfill her emotional needs. And she stays b/c she is an emotional black hole that requires constant outside reassurance that she's worthwhile/loved, while clinging to a fantasy of certainty that doesn't really exist in life or relationships. In turn, you have spent years feeding her dysfunction by providing these things to her with barely a peep about your own needs and expectations.
Cut bait and move on. This is no recipe for a healthy/happy marriage. Honestly, in some ways it is not even a recipe for a healthy friendship.
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@zoochadookdook I wish for a moment you could see your situation through the eyes of us strangers on the forum. I suspect you have been in your situation for so long and accepted it as normal that it is difficult to see how very dysfunctional it appears from the outside. You seem to be a very well-intention, kind person. We've already discussed your friend's self esteem issues but I think you should also spend some time asking yourself about your own. You have gone six long years denying your own fundamental needs and desires and not even bringing that up as a topic of conversation, but accepting it. That is not normal. You deserve better than that and you deserve to advocate for your own needs. I doubt there is anyone on this thread who would go so long having something fundamentally important to them not met in a relationship, and not even bringing it up as an issue.
In a small way I understand your friend. I had been with my boyfriend for six years or so and knew this was the person I wanted to marry. He wasn't there. That was really hard on me because I felt stuck, rejected, and kept wondering what it was about me that was lacking. We definitely could have been better about our communication on the topic and that is something we improved slowly over time. However the difference is that when I finally decided I had had enough of not getting what I needed, I asked my boyfriend to move out. I told him I needed some more space. Not that I wanted to break up completely because I loved him and our relationship was fundamentally good still, but I could no longer live in what felt like a sham marriage when what I wanted was the real thing. It was hard on both of us, but I think it did us both a lot of good. He moved out. I took a temporary job in another state, and we had more time to ourselves to think and grow and be independent.
What was critical to me is that I finally had the confidence in myself to look at what I needed, see that I wasn't getting it, and do something about it. There is something very empowering about taking control of your own fate. I recommend it to both of you. I also can't speak highly enough of the importance of having time in your 20s to experience independent adulthood for learning and growing and just having fun. This time of your lives is supposed to be fun! It gets harder after this. This really is not supposed to be such a difficult slog.
You are a good person and I wish you the best. Please remember that you matter and your needs matter and to start giving them equal weight.
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It's so tough to see our relationships for what they are when we're deep in them, isn't it? I was in a 3-year relationship with a person who also had deep self-esteem/abandonment issues and demanded constant (I mean daily, several times a day) affirmation of her worth from me.... which she would reject, because she didn't believe positive things about herself. I was luckily experienced enough with relationships to know that the self-worth had to come from within her, so we had a long discussion where I would explain how draining it was constantly trying to fill this bucket-with-a-hole and how it was destroying our relationship. I was unfortunately not experienced enough to avoid falling for her deflection, redirection, and manipulation, so this was a routine conversation we would have every couple of months. Sometimes she'd ease up for a week or two, but inevitably would fall back into her own patterns. It took me a long time to figure out she simply wasn't interested in doing the work to make our relationship better. One milestone moment was when I learned that her therapist was giving her practical tools to work on this, but she didn't want to use them because she didn't think they would work. She didn't even want to try. So I had to call it quits. My situation was different in that our sex life was spectacular; we were very compatible in that area .
Breaking up with her was very difficult, because other than her implacable self-esteem wounds, she was a sweet, good-hearted person with a great sense of humor and I really loved her. But I gotta tell you: the relief and peace of mind I felt after we split was priceless. And you know what? Months down the road she contacted me to tell me that she hoped there weren’t any hard feelings between us and that she wished me the best. Breaking up was hard. But it was necessary for us both.
I hope my story helps you.
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This thread may be many pages, but let's not forget that it's only been a few days of chatting with internet strangers after 7 years or this being OP's normal.
It's a huge paradigm shift for him to go from the reality of a few days ago:
"my relationship is great, we'll probably get married some day, she hasn't had interest in sex me since I cheated years ago, but that will probably work out eventually as long as I'm patient and respectful"
To
"I should break up with her, it's the only reasonable thing to do"
I've been in enough dumbshit relationships to know that those boats are hard to turn around sometimes.
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This thread may be many pages, but let's not forget that it's only been a few days of chatting with internet strangers after 7 years or this being OP's normal.
It's a huge paradigm shift for him to go from the reality of a few days ago:
"my relationship is great, we'll probably get married some day, she hasn't had interest in sex me since I cheated years ago, but that will probably work out eventually as long as I'm patient and respectful"
To
"I should break up with her, it's the only reasonable thing to do"
I've been in enough dumbshit relationships to know that those boats are hard to turn around sometimes.
Malkynn demonstrating almost casually exactly why the Best Post On The Forum thread is really a Malkynn's Greatest Hits thread.
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This thread may be many pages, but let's not forget that it's only been a few days of chatting with internet strangers after 7 years or this being OP's normal.
It's a huge paradigm shift for him to go from the reality of a few days ago:
"my relationship is great, we'll probably get married some day, she hasn't had interest in sex me since I cheated years ago, but that will probably work out eventually as long as I'm patient and respectful"
To
"I should break up with her, it's the only reasonable thing to do"
I've been in enough dumbshit relationships to know that those boats are hard to turn around sometimes.
Malkynn demonstrating almost casually exactly why the Best Post On The Forum thread is really a Malkynn's Greatest Hits thread.
The only person to give Malkynn a run for her money would be if Laura33 chimed in. :)
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This thread may be many pages, but let's not forget that it's only been a few days of chatting with internet strangers after 7 years or this being OP's normal.
It's a huge paradigm shift for him to go from the reality of a few days ago:
"my relationship is great, we'll probably get married some day, she hasn't had interest in sex me since I cheated years ago, but that will probably work out eventually as long as I'm patient and respectful"
To
"I should break up with her, it's the only reasonable thing to do"
I've been in enough dumbshit relationships to know that those boats are hard to turn around sometimes.
Yeah I mean-kind of been a integral and steady constant in my life for the past 7.5 years or so. It's not like I can just instantly look at someone I care about deeply in a new light without trying to discuss it with both of us and trying to at least make something work. I was in a happy enough for me state up until this last week and then it's just been shitty for both of us. I really wish she hadn't scheduled this vacation as that puts us on a crunch
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This thread may be many pages, but let's not forget that it's only been a few days of chatting with internet strangers after 7 years or this being OP's normal.
It's a huge paradigm shift for him to go from the reality of a few days ago:
"my relationship is great, we'll probably get married some day, she hasn't had interest in sex me since I cheated years ago, but that will probably work out eventually as long as I'm patient and respectful"
To
"I should break up with her, it's the only reasonable thing to do"
I've been in enough dumbshit relationships to know that those boats are hard to turn around sometimes.
Yeah I mean-kind of been a integral and steady constant in my life for the past 7.5 years or so. It's not like I can just instantly look at someone I care about deeply in a new light without trying to discuss it with both of us and trying to at least make something work. I was in a happy enough for me state up until this last week and then it's just been shitty for both of us. I really wish she hadn't scheduled this vacation as that puts us on a crunch
I get that, but in far more important ways, it's great that this has FINALLY forced you two to actually talk about your problems.
I mean, you were only "happy" because you were both utterly and completely ignorant about each other's reality.
As hard as this is, it's a good thing.
Never forget: all things worth doing are hard.
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This thread may be many pages, but let's not forget that it's only been a few days of chatting with internet strangers after 7 years or this being OP's normal.
It's a huge paradigm shift for him to go from the reality of a few days ago:
"my relationship is great, we'll probably get married some day, she hasn't had interest in sex me since I cheated years ago, but that will probably work out eventually as long as I'm patient and respectful"
To
"I should break up with her, it's the only reasonable thing to do"
I've been in enough dumbshit relationships to know that those boats are hard to turn around sometimes.
Yeah I mean-kind of been a integral and steady constant in my life for the past 7.5 years or so. It's not like I can just instantly look at someone I care about deeply in a new light without trying to discuss it with both of us and trying to at least make something work. I was in a happy enough for me state up until this last week and then it's just been shitty for both of us. I really wish she hadn't scheduled this vacation as that puts us on a crunch
I get that, but in far more important ways, it's great that this has FINALLY forced you two to actually talk about your problems.
I mean, you were only "happy" because you were both utterly and completely ignorant about each other's reality.
As hard as this is, it's a good thing.
Never forget: all things worth doing are hard.
“Happy” by ignoring each other’s reality and simultaneously living in silence while each of you had needs that were going unmet and unable to talk about them. Growing is tough and this is a hard time you are going through, but I share the optimism of others that if you break up you will both be much better off down the line.
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You know, the cruise doesn't need to be reconciliation or one of you doesn't go/canceled. It's ok to take the cruise as a chance for a nice farewell (that you both recognize is a farewell and you'll separate shortly afterwards). Weird as it may be, my college bf and I planned out a future break up - we agreed to break up upon college graduation, which I think was maybe ~6 weeks or less away at that point. It was so hard to say farewell to someone I really cared about, and putting it at a natural separation point helped some. Like you, we were good together in a lot ways, but not ultimately right. We did not tell anyone of our intentions, which was admittedly a bit awkward when families were greeting each other at graduation, but no harm. (Now, don't be like me. We backslid after the summer, and it took another year or so to end it for good.)
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You know, the cruise doesn't need to be reconciliation or one of you doesn't go/canceled. It's ok to take the cruise as a chance for a nice farewell (that you both recognize is a farewell and you'll separate shortly afterwards). Weird as it may be, my college bf and I planned out a future break up - we agreed to break up upon college graduation, which I think was maybe ~6 weeks or less away at that point. It was so hard to say farewell to someone I really cared about, and putting it at a natural separation point helped some. Like you, we were good together in a lot ways, but not ultimately right. We did not tell anyone of our intentions, which was admittedly a bit awkward when families were greeting each other at graduation, but no harm. (Now, don't be like me. We backslid after the summer, and it took another year or so to end it for good.)
That'd be a better way of looking at it but I feel like she wouldn't think about it like that. Like it's a big reversal for her these last few weeks as well-from going to thinking of being married to considering that we might break up.
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You know, the cruise doesn't need to be reconciliation or one of you doesn't go/canceled. It's ok to take the cruise as a chance for a nice farewell (that you both recognize is a farewell and you'll separate shortly afterwards). Weird as it may be, my college bf and I planned out a future break up - we agreed to break up upon college graduation, which I think was maybe ~6 weeks or less away at that point. It was so hard to say farewell to someone I really cared about, and putting it at a natural separation point helped some. Like you, we were good together in a lot ways, but not ultimately right. We did not tell anyone of our intentions, which was admittedly a bit awkward when families were greeting each other at graduation, but no harm. (Now, don't be like me. We backslid after the summer, and it took another year or so to end it for good.)
That'd be a better way of looking at it but I feel like she wouldn't think about it like that. Like it's a big reversal for her these last few weeks as well-from going to thinking of being married to considering that we might break up.
Yeah...
When I was in your girlfriend's position, I could not have gone on a vacation as a loving way to break up. Its good that you recognize what this is doing to her.
I would have spent the entire vacation trying to orchestrate romantic moments to convince him that we should still get married and not call off our engagement.
It took me a solid 6 months to accept what he was saying. In that time, I tried EVERYTHING to convince him otherwise. It wasn't pretty.
If you go on this cruise, she will spend the entire time obsessing about how to convince you to get engaged.
I think you know this.
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You know, the cruise doesn't need to be reconciliation or one of you doesn't go/canceled. It's ok to take the cruise as a chance for a nice farewell (that you both recognize is a farewell and you'll separate shortly afterwards). Weird as it may be, my college bf and I planned out a future break up - we agreed to break up upon college graduation, which I think was maybe ~6 weeks or less away at that point. It was so hard to say farewell to someone I really cared about, and putting it at a natural separation point helped some. Like you, we were good together in a lot ways, but not ultimately right. We did not tell anyone of our intentions, which was admittedly a bit awkward when families were greeting each other at graduation, but no harm. (Now, don't be like me. We backslid after the summer, and it took another year or so to end it for good.)
That'd be a better way of looking at it but I feel like she wouldn't think about it like that. Like it's a big reversal for her these last few weeks as well-from going to thinking of being married to considering that we might break up.
Yeah...
When I was in your girlfriend's position, I could not have gone on a vacation as a loving way to break up. Its good that you recognize what this is doing to her.
I would have spent the entire vacation trying to orchestrate romantic moments to convince him that we should still get married and not call off our engagement.
It took me a solid 6 months to accept what he was saying. In that time, I tried EVERYTHING to convince him otherwise. It wasn't pretty.
If you go on this cruise, she will spend the entire time obsessing about how to convince you to get engaged.
I think you know this.
I have an inkling of a idea. It might now be pretty but I have to tell her I am not getting engaged right now/in the forseeable future. She'll ask why not/am i not dedicated to working towards marriage? And i'm still working on what to say after that. I want her to go with her friend or sister-i know she won't go alone and she's said she'll be sad the whole time anyways if i was there or not soooooo
Another random factor is that I just started a professional office job at a IT company 2.5 weeks ago and her aunt sits right by me/got me a interview. Just more fluff in the mix.
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She's interested in marriage, you're not.
You're interested in sex, she's not.
To be blunt, it doesn't sound like your wants/needs are compatible for a long-term relationship.
This is a much more concise version of what I was going to say.
The fact that you're here stating such large life questions shows that you have serious reservations. Your partner is trying to bully you into making a commitment before she will even try to make the relationship something you'd want. Sounds like a 100% no go.
+1 for both post ^^
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I have an inkling of a idea. It might now be pretty but I have to tell her I am not getting engaged right now/in the forseeable future. She'll ask why not/am i not dedicated to working towards marriage? And i'm still working on what to say after that. I want her to go with her friend or sister-i know she won't go alone and she's said she'll be sad the whole time anyways if i was there or not soooooo
If you have decided that you are going breakup, THAT's what you tell her, not that you are not getting engaged right now (which is just a delayed tactic and painfully prolongs the eventual breakup). And if you've decided that, you don't need to have a lot of explanations. Something as simple as "This is not right for either one of us. We fundamentally want different things out of a relationship than we can give each other."
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You know, the cruise doesn't need to be reconciliation or one of you doesn't go/canceled. It's ok to take the cruise as a chance for a nice farewell (that you both recognize is a farewell and you'll separate shortly afterwards). Weird as it may be, my college bf and I planned out a future break up - we agreed to break up upon college graduation, which I think was maybe ~6 weeks or less away at that point. It was so hard to say farewell to someone I really cared about, and putting it at a natural separation point helped some. Like you, we were good together in a lot ways, but not ultimately right. We did not tell anyone of our intentions, which was admittedly a bit awkward when families were greeting each other at graduation, but no harm. (Now, don't be like me. We backslid after the summer, and it took another year or so to end it for good.)
That'd be a better way of looking at it but I feel like she wouldn't think about it like that. Like it's a big reversal for her these last few weeks as well-from going to thinking of being married to considering that we might break up.
Yeah...
When I was in your girlfriend's position, I could not have gone on a vacation as a loving way to break up. Its good that you recognize what this is doing to her.
I would have spent the entire vacation trying to orchestrate romantic moments to convince him that we should still get married and not call off our engagement.
It took me a solid 6 months to accept what he was saying. In that time, I tried EVERYTHING to convince him otherwise. It wasn't pretty.
If you go on this cruise, she will spend the entire time obsessing about how to convince you to get engaged.
I think you know this.
I have an inkling of a idea. It might now be pretty but I have to tell her I am not getting engaged right now/in the forseeable future. She'll ask why not/am i not dedicated to working towards marriage? And i'm still working on what to say after that. I want her to go with her friend or sister-i know she won't go alone and she's said she'll be sad the whole time anyways if i was there or not soooooo
Another random factor is that I just started a professional office job at a IT company 2.5 weeks ago and her aunt sits right by me/got me a interview. Just more fluff in the mix.
I think the response to why you aren’t dedicated to working towards marriage can include something along the lines of pointing out that you want fundamentally différent things in life, that your relationship is not currently healthy due to your lack of strong communication, the fact that each of you aren’t getting your needs met, and that she still isn’t hearing you and giving appropriate weight to your happiness in this relationship.
Short answer: marriage is something we talk about when we have a solid, strong, and mutually happy relationship. You haven’t reached that prerequisite yet.
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
I think she wants to see that i'm dedicated to getting our relationship to marriage-as she always planned to be married some day-thus dating with intent.
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
I think she wants to see that i'm dedicated to getting our relationship to marriage-as she always planned to be married some day-thus dating with intent.
I bet you anything that she will start dating someone else after you break up and she will get engaged, married and have a baby within 2 years. If she wants to get married, she can. Just not to you, since you are incompatible. There's no sense in entering an unhappy marriege with your eyes wide open.
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
I think she wants to see that i'm dedicated to getting our relationship to marriage-as she always planned to be married some day-thus dating with intent.
I bet you anything that she will start dating someone else after you break up and she will get engaged, married and have a baby within 2 years. If she wants to get married, she can. Just not to you, since you are incompatible. There's no sense in entering an unhappy marriege with your eyes wide open.
I have no doubt she could!
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
I think she wants to see that i'm dedicated to getting our relationship to marriage-as she always planned to be married some day-thus dating with intent.
Didn't you say that you've thought about marriage with this girl? So it isn't that you don't want to get married; it's that you don't want your marriage to resemble your current relationship in the sex department.
To echo what several people have said: when I was in my twenties, and when I had a girlfriend, there was almost never a lack of physical intimacy, even with the girl who was planning to wait until marriage (take a guess as to whether that went according to plan). I then had one girlfriend who was much less interested in getting intimate, and that was the easiest breakup I ever had*. But know what made it easy? I knew that that level of intimacy wasn't normal and wasn't what I wanted based on past experience. Fortunately, you seem to have grasped that no intimacy isn't what you want, but unfortunately, you don't seem to have the past experience to realize that there is someone much better for you out there.
*Unfortunately, I made the mistake of trying to be friends. The intimacy always increased for a little while, we'd get back together, and then things would get shitty and I'd break up again. This happened half a dozen times over the course of a year. Pathetically, I finally gave up and lived in this lackluster relationship for three more years before we both agreed it was a shitty relationship. (Denouement: I was banging my now-wife within three months after the breakup, and she got together with her now-husband shortly afterwards. Wife and I are still going fairly strong almost a decade later.)
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
I think she wants to see that i'm dedicated to getting our relationship to marriage-as she always planned to be married some day-thus dating with intent.
Didn't you say that you've thought about marriage with this girl? So it isn't that you don't want to get married; it's that you don't want your marriage to resemble your current relationship in the sex department.
To echo what several people have said: when I was in my twenties, and when I had a girlfriend, there was almost never a lack of physical intimacy, even with the girl who was planning to wait until marriage (take a guess as to whether that went according to plan). I then had one girlfriend who was much less interested in getting intimate, and that was the easiest breakup I ever had*. But know what made it easy? I knew that that level of intimacy wasn't normal and wasn't what I wanted based on past experience. Fortunately, you seem to have grasped that no intimacy isn't what you want, but unfortunately, you don't seem to have the past experience to realize that there is someone much better for you out there.
*Unfortunately, I made the mistake of trying to be friends. The intimacy always increased for a little while, we'd get back together, and then things would get shitty and I'd break up again. This happened half a dozen times over the course of a year. Pathetically, I finally gave up and lived in this lackluster relationship for three more years before we both agreed it was a shitty relationship. (Denouement: I was banging my now-wife within three months after the breakup, and she got together with her now-husband shortly afterwards. Wife and I are still going fairly strong almost a decade later.)
Yeah and through telling her that she kind of filters it as marriage is something we're working towards and she wants to know i'm dedicated to working towards it. I believe she just wants that knowledge that I will do whatever it takes to make it happen.
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
I think she wants to see that i'm dedicated to getting our relationship to marriage-as she always planned to be married some day-thus dating with intent.
Didn't you say that you've thought about marriage with this girl? So it isn't that you don't want to get married; it's that you don't want your marriage to resemble your current relationship in the sex department.
To echo what several people have said: when I was in my twenties, and when I had a girlfriend, there was almost never a lack of physical intimacy, even with the girl who was planning to wait until marriage (take a guess as to whether that went according to plan). I then had one girlfriend who was much less interested in getting intimate, and that was the easiest breakup I ever had*. But know what made it easy? I knew that that level of intimacy wasn't normal and wasn't what I wanted based on past experience. Fortunately, you seem to have grasped that no intimacy isn't what you want, but unfortunately, you don't seem to have the past experience to realize that there is someone much better for you out there.
*Unfortunately, I made the mistake of trying to be friends. The intimacy always increased for a little while, we'd get back together, and then things would get shitty and I'd break up again. This happened half a dozen times over the course of a year. Pathetically, I finally gave up and lived in this lackluster relationship for three more years before we both agreed it was a shitty relationship. (Denouement: I was banging my now-wife within three months after the breakup, and she got together with her now-husband shortly afterwards. Wife and I are still going fairly strong almost a decade later.)
Yeah and through telling her that she kind of filters it as marriage is something we're working towards and she wants to know i'm dedicated to working towards it. I believe she just wants that knowledge that I will do whatever it takes to make it happen.
I think this is a pointless road to try to go down because I agree with others that you two are incompatible, but why isn’t she also doing whatever it takes to make this marriage thing happen? Fair is fair, right? Especially since this is something she seems to want more, she should be willing to put more of an effort (like I do more housework as I care more about having a clean house than my husband).
Setting that aside though, I think we have reached a point of going round a round in circles. You are doing an admirable job of trying to see things from her perspective and be fair and kind to her. So much so I think you are losing sight of how irrational her requests are. But it doesn’t matter that much. She wants something you aren’t ready to give. You want something she isn’t able to give. You don’t have a solid basis for a mature, long-term relationship. You are both unhappy. You don’t see a path to resolving these incompatibilities.
What is the next step in your mind?
Yes, this is the project manager in me coming out, but you should have an idea of what things you can reasonable try next, a reasonable timeline for that, and identify on your head criteria by which you can judge whether it is worth continuing to sink time and effort into this or cut your losses and move on.
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Yeah and through telling her that she kind of filters it as marriage is something we're working towards and she wants to know i'm dedicated to working towards it. I believe she just wants that knowledge that I will do whatever it takes to make it happen.
But why are you doing "whatever it takes" to get married? You should be doing whatever it takes to get into a healthy, happy, loving relationship. In this day and age, marriage generally follows from that. And I'm sorry, but if she hasn't gotten the least bit intimate with you in six years even while living together, it is very unlikely that the "loving" part will follow after your engagement or marriage.
Has your counselor had anything to say about you two not getting physically intimate for this period of time (to include no desire from her)?
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OP, I just want to say one more thing:
One of the hardest lessons to learn as a young dating person is this:
You don't need a "good reason" to break a relationship off. You don't need a reason that will convince/make sense to the person you're breaking up with. You don't need a reason that will make the other person agree with you.
You don't even need a reason that is "justifiable" to the other person.
"We are not compatible" is a fine reason. "This isn't what I want" is a fine reason.
Frankly, "You don't like comic books as much as I do" is a fine reason.
The point of dating is to find out whether you want to be with that person longer term. Whether this is the person/a person you very much want to spend the rest of your life with.
If you find after a period of dating that you do not, then you are justified in breaking it off.
If and when you decide to end it with your friend, do not let yourself be lured into an argument over your reasons. In fact, I think it's best not to go deep into the reason other than "this relationship isn't right for me." Do not let yourself be lured into trying to convince her. Because she will argue with you. She will try to convince you.
There is no good that can come of that. I've been on both sides of this equation. I've been the breaker-upper, and have tried to find a "good" way to say it. There isn't one. Just do it. And end the conversation.
I've been the person being broken up with, too. As a younger person, I remember begging the other person to tell me "Why???" If you try to give her "good" reasons, she'll argue, or she'll try to deflect and talk about how terrible you make her feel, and try to make you get her to console her (which is step one toward getting you to change your mind). By the time you get to the breaking up part -- especially because you've been to counseling -- she already knows why. Resist her desire/need to rehash it forever.
Just say it, and finish the conversation. Go stay with a friend for a while if you have to. Give her some space to come to grips with the fact that your mind is made up. That it really is over.
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I think the OP is just engaging in the Sunk Cost fallacy. That's a hard one to work through.
http://time.com/5347133/sunk-cost-fallacy-decisions/
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I think the OP is just engaging in the Sunk Cost fallacy. That's a hard one to work through.
http://time.com/5347133/sunk-cost-fallacy-decisions/
Yes, and he has spent his entire formative adult life with this personal, so he has no other experience for comparison. He doesn’t *know* how much better a better relationship could be because he has only experienced this disfunction. It is hard to appreciate what you’ve never experienced.
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OP, I just want to say one more thing:
One of the hardest lessons to learn as a young dating person is this:
You don't need a "good reason" to break a relationship off. You don't need a reason that will convince/make sense to the person you're breaking up with. You don't need a reason that will make the other person agree with you.
You don't even need a reason that is "justifiable" to the other person.
"We are not compatible" is a fine reason. "This isn't what I want" is a fine reason.
Frankly, "You don't like comic books as much as I do" is a fine reason.
The point of dating is to find out whether you want to be with that person longer term. Whether this is the person/a person you very much want to spend the rest of your life with.
If you find after a period of dating that you do not, then you are justified in breaking it off.
If and when you decide to end it with your friend, do not let yourself be lured into an argument over your reasons. In fact, I think it's best not to go deep into the reason other than "this relationship isn't right for me." Do not let yourself be lured into trying to convince her. Because she will argue with you. She will try to convince you.
There is no good that can come of that. I've been on both sides of this equation. I've been the breaker-upper, and have tried to find a "good" way to say it. There isn't one. Just do it. And end the conversation.
I've been the person being broken up with, too. As a younger person, I remember begging the other person to tell me "Why???" If you try to give her "good" reasons, she'll argue, or she'll try to deflect and talk about how terrible you make her feel, and try to make you get her to console her (which is step one toward getting you to change your mind). By the time you get to the breaking up part -- especially because you've been to counseling -- she already knows why. Resist her desire/need to rehash it forever.
Just say it, and finish the conversation. Go stay with a friend for a while if you have to. Give her some space to come to grips with the fact that your mind is made up. That it really is over.
This is extremely good advice that I think everyone needs to hear or needed to hear at some point in their life. It's also true for so many other things that involve other people... declining invitations, etc. There's nothing wrong with politely saying "no" or "not anymore" and leaving it at that. In fact, as Kris noted, it's usually best.
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I don't know if your girlfriend is anywhere on the ace spectrum, but I am, and your story make me wonder if that might play some part in your situation. There are plenty of asexual, gray-ace, etc. people for whom attraction and desire are dependent on very specific factors/only apply in specific situations, and who can go long periods without sex and then happily reengage with it. Maybe this is the case for her, maybe it isn't, but I wanted to offer this perspective. I am asexual, and I have a girlfriend who is not. We are not intimate (although I know this is not the case for all ace folks.) Our relationship works for us at this time.
If that fact changed, and my girlfriend came to feel that mutual intimacy was very important and necessary to a relationship, we would ultimately have to break up. This wouldn't be anyone's "fault," not really-- not mine for not wanting to engage in intimacy, not hers for wanting something very personal and fulfilling and important for most humans, not out of lack of respect or love or willingness to make the other happy, but because our fundamental needs have become mismatched.
Your girlfriend's reasons don't really matter, in this case-- whether she's lost her sex drive, a matter of personal conviction, religious mores, she only wants to get it on in the confines of holy matrimony, whatever. They are all good, fine personal reasons to not get intimate, and you can love her and respect her wishes.
And your reasoning-- wanting to be intimate and know you share intimate chemistry and compatibility before tying the knot-- is a very good, valid, fine reason too, and to be respected too.
This isn't a matter of 'fault' or even being unrealistic-- your girlfriend may be perfectly accurate in her judgment that she'll be able to happily and enthusiastically be with you after you've exchanged vows. But you're mismatched, fundamentally incompatible on this point, and couching it in terms of "if only she'd stop being selfish and do XYZ for you" or "if you really REALLY cared about her you'd stop being selfish and just propose already" is only going to hurt the both of you. I think you should take a break from each other, at minimum, and work from there.
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I don't know if your girlfriend is anywhere on the ace spectrum, but I am, and your story make me wonder if that might play some part in your situation. There are plenty of asexual, gray-ace, etc. people for whom attraction and desire are dependent on very specific factors/only apply in specific situations, and who can go long periods without sex and then happily reengage with it. Maybe this is the case for her, maybe it isn't, but I wanted to offer this perspective. I am asexual, and I have a girlfriend who is not. We are not intimate (although I know this is not the case for all ace folks.) Our relationship works for us at this time.
If that fact changed, and my girlfriend came to feel that mutual intimacy was very important and necessary to a relationship, we would ultimately have to break up. This wouldn't be anyone's "fault," not really-- not mine for not wanting to engage in intimacy, not hers for wanting something very personal and fulfilling and important for most humans, not out of lack of respect or love or willingness to make the other happy, but because our fundamental needs have become mismatched.
Your girlfriend's reasons don't really matter, in this case-- whether she's lost her sex drive, a matter of personal conviction, religious mores, she only wants to get it on in the confines of holy matrimony, whatever. They are all good, fine personal reasons to not get intimate, and you can love her and respect her wishes.
And your reasoning-- wanting to be intimate and know you share intimate chemistry and compatibility before tying the knot-- is a very good, valid, fine reason too, and to be respected too.
This isn't a matter of 'fault' or even being unrealistic-- your girlfriend may be perfectly accurate in her judgment that she'll be able to happily and enthusiastically be with you after you've exchanged vows. But you're mismatched, fundamentally incompatible on this point, and couching it in terms of "if only she'd stop being selfish and do XYZ for you" or "if you really REALLY cared about her you'd stop being selfish and just propose already" is only going to hurt the both of you. I think you should take a break from each other, at minimum, and work from there.
Great perspective. Thanks for sharing.
And now I’ve learned a new term for today: “ace spectrum”.
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I'm not sure if anyone's asked this (apologies if so), but what was her plan if you didn't propose to her? Irrespective of the whole no-sex thing (which she didn't think/know was even an issue until just now), what was she going to do if you didn't pick up on her poorly communicated (until now) desire for marriage? Before she knew that she could even use sex as a bargaining chip.
Was she planning to leave you if you didn't propose on the cruise? Like... if she needed you to propose to "prove" your commitment--what if you didn't provide that proof? What was her endgame? The rules are different now the she has leverage, but what was her mind like prior to knowing she had that leverage?
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I'm not sure if anyone's asked this (apologies if so), but what was her plan if you didn't propose to her? Irrespective of the whole no-sex thing (which she didn't think/know was even an issue until just now), what was she going to do if you didn't pick up on her poorly communicated (until now) desire for marriage? Before she knew that she could even use sex as a bargaining chip.
Was she planning to leave you if you didn't propose on the cruise? Like... if she needed you to propose to "prove" your commitment--what if you didn't provide that proof? What was her endgame? The rules are different now the she has leverage, but what was her mind like prior to knowing she had that leverage?
I think she hadnt really contemplated it as an option. I assume now she's thinking if I cant get on board with marriage she will have to leave. We didn't really feel like fighting tonight.
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Hey all so neither of us wanted to fight tonight. I dont believe the cruise is refundable/transferrable so I'm thinking we're going on a trip. I have no doubt we need some time apart or to set a date by which we establish breaking up or similar.
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Hey all so neither of us wanted to fight tonight. I dont believe the cruise is refundable/transferrable so I'm thinking we're going on a trip. I have no doubt we need some time apart or to set a date by which we establish breaking up or similar.
That is a big step for you to be saying that and it must not be easy. I just want to recognize the hard work you are doing here.
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Hey all so neither of us wanted to fight tonight. I dont believe the cruise is refundable/transferrable so I'm thinking we're going on a trip. I have no doubt we need some time apart or to set a date by which we establish breaking up or similar.
That is a big step for you to be saying that and it must not be easy. I just want to recognize the hard work you are doing here.
I mentioned to her a few times I'd rather she go with her sister/friends but she just kind of brushed it off. I did tell her I didn't want it to be awkward/to go if it was just focused on engagement and we did need to set realistic dates of what we need and such in the relationship or decide when to call it.
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I think the OP is just engaging in the Sunk Cost fallacy. That's a hard one to work through.
http://time.com/5347133/sunk-cost-fallacy-decisions/
Yes, and he has spent his entire formative adult life with this personal, so he has no other experience for comparison. He doesn’t *know* how much better a better relationship could be because he has only experienced this disfunction. It is hard to appreciate what you’ve never experienced.
i've made this mistake before.
"we've come so far, we can't quit now. i can't do all this 'work' and let some other guy reap the benefits! i have to see this through to the end"
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I think the OP is just engaging in the Sunk Cost fallacy. That's a hard one to work through.
http://time.com/5347133/sunk-cost-fallacy-decisions/
Yes, and he has spent his entire formative adult life with this personal, so he has no other experience for comparison. He doesn’t *know* how much better a better relationship could be because he has only experienced this disfunction. It is hard to appreciate what you’ve never experienced.
i've made this mistake before.
"we've come so far, we can't quit now. i can't do all this 'work' and let some other guy reap the benefits! i have to see this through to the end"
Yeah fair point, and it seems like a sound rationalization but I'm making it clear to her I am unhappy/unfulfilled in our relationship. I'm not set against marriage but there's some serious work/changes/damage control before I can get to that level. Probably more time than she wants to wait but that's her right as well.
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
I think she wants to see that i'm dedicated to getting our relationship to marriage-as she always planned to be married some day-thus dating with intent.
I bet you anything that she will start dating someone else after you break up and she will get engaged, married and have a baby within 2 years. If she wants to get married, she can. Just not to you, since you are incompatible. There's no sense in entering an unhappy marriege with your eyes wide open.
I have no doubt she could!
Well okay then. Set that bird free.
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One more thing.
Not “working towards marriage” (whatever that means) is not the problem in your relationship, it is the symptom. You need to treat the root cause, not the symptom.
I think she wants to see that i'm dedicated to getting our relationship to marriage-as she always planned to be married some day-thus dating with intent.
I bet you anything that she will start dating someone else after you break up and she will get engaged, married and have a baby within 2 years. If she wants to get married, she can. Just not to you, since you are incompatible. There's no sense in entering an unhappy marriege with your eyes wide open.
I have no doubt she could!
Well okay then. Set that bird free.
We're going to have this trip to reflect and get on the same page. Hoping to have a good bit of clarity by the time we get back.
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Yes, this is the project manager in me coming out, but you should have an idea of what things you can reasonable try next, a reasonable timeline for that, and identify on your head criteria by which you can judge whether it is worth continuing to sink time and effort into this or cut your losses and move on.
PMs, unite! This was very good.
Also with the sunk costs.
And Kris was spot on.
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Yes, this is the project manager in me coming out, but you should have an idea of what things you can reasonable try next, a reasonable timeline for that, and identify on your head criteria by which you can judge whether it is worth continuing to sink time and effort into this or cut your losses and move on.
PMs, unite! This was very good.
Also with the sunk costs.
And Kris was spot on.
Ironically enough my degree is in MIS and I'm looking for jr PM positions/business/system analyst positions lol. Yeah we're going to set timelines together. Already brought it up so she's aware neither of us is interested in wasting time
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Great! You’re moving down the right path then. Good luck.
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Hey all so neither of us wanted to fight tonight. I dont believe the cruise is refundable/transferrable so I'm thinking we're going on a trip.
That's more sunk-cost thinking. No matter what you do, you don't get the money back, so whether you go or not should be based on whether or not it's a good idea to go.
I have no doubt we need some time apart or to set a date by which we establish breaking up or similar.
And there's the answer to whether you should go or not.
I'm not sure why I'm contributing to this thread. It's a bit like watching a movie and yelling at the character on the screen not to go into the scary house but they can't hear you and do it anyway.
So much wisdom has been offered in the responses. You asked for help and advice and you have received a wealth of well though-out, well supported responses. I don't think I've seen a thread with such consistent responses.
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@zoochadookdook - thinking of you. I hope you are making good progress. Good luck.
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@zoochadookdook - thinking of you. I hope you are making good progress. Good luck.
I think it is fine that the OP has left this thread for a while to think over its contents.
oP, I encourage you to stay away for a while. You have heard everything we have to say. You dont owe anyone feedback! But in a while, give us an update. Be well.
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OP is probably on his cruise. I too wish him the best of luck on figuring out his life path.
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Hey all on day 5. Just got some spotty wifi in caracoa. Trip is good. Food everywhere. Burnt to crisp. I'll have a better update when I return the 26
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Hey all on day 5. Just got some spotty wifi in caracoa. Trip is good. Food everywhere. Burnt to crisp. Same old cordial relationship. I'll have a better update when I return the 26
Nice to hear from you. Enjoy your trip and WEAR SUNSCREEN. (Plenty of cancerous and pre-cancerous things removed from many of my family members so I’m extra cautious)
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I am emotionally commited to her, as a provider (she works... and as a person. She doesn't care if i want to play video games and is perfectly content to spend the weekend in binging netflix. She and I are pretty compatible, we never really fight or argue and we have a billion inside (stupid) jokes. We have a life together and that's been enough to focus on.
I would have to say that she sounds pretty remarkable. Maybe it is the billion inside jokes or that she lets you get away with doing your own thing. You have allowed your relationship to become a friendship. No different than hanging out with the guys. I failed to see the spark of romance that you are bringing to the table. Talking about the lack of sex directly to her isn't going to do anything but push her further away. Never settle for mediocrity.
If you want more sex you increase the amount of intimacy in the relationship. The amount of hugs, kisses, 'I love you's'...
If you just want to end the relationship; well, you have enough reasons to end it. Your next relationships are directly related to this one. The first relationship rarely works out, but I recall that tends to be everyone's regret later in life.
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Just read the OP after skimming a page or two of recent posts. Not a counselor, just a guy who's had a few relationships (with wonderful ladies, luckily). I hope your trip has resolved all problems between you two!
If it hasn't: It sounds like you two had a lot of sex for a few months as 18- to 19-year-olds, then you slept with somebody else and the Original Woman hasn't had sex with you since, which is now about seven years later. To me it sounds like you made a mistake that she isn't truly going to forgive you for. Ever since you've each been hoping for a magic way to heal the breach, but it's not going to happen. Cut the cord.
If you're afraid to quit because you might be lonely, or look like a heel, or Make Her Feel Bad, or whatever... well, facing the fear of leaving will hurt at first, but then you'll get better. It's like an investment, it will pay off hugely over time.
Good luck in any case.
PS. Pro tip: When you break off a relationship, budget at least four evenings in which you will listen but not say anything about your side. She will likely need to grieve and vent. If you can listen to that appreciatively without arguing back, you have a good chance to transition to a friendly post-relationship state of mutual feeling. In any case you will have a plan for getting through the initial stage.
This particular lady sounds like she might hold a grudge or issue retributive emotional punishment regardless. But you can try, and you will be better for doing so.
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I have to add, if her plan is to go off bc and then get intimate, please makes sure you are using an alternate method of contraception! Unless you are ok to get married because you knocked her up.
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OP, I don't know if podcasts are your thing, but I was listening to "Work Life' by Adam Grant and a recent episode made me think about you and I wanted to pass it along in case you might find it helpful.
Check out Season 2 Episode 7 "Bouncing Back From Rejection". It's not perfectly analogous to your situation, but I think there's enough there that it might help you process some more in a productive way.
Hope the burns are healing up!
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Hey all brief update. We're getting back in the swing of work and such and have talked a bit more.
She's come to terms that she has to change or the relationships not going to work. She stopped BC sunday night so I guess we'll see if that leads anywhere, However she wants to know if A)I'll want kids/ B)I'll want to be married.
Personally I'm not opposed to either-but i'm financially terrified of kids. I think both of those are things I'd rather advance or establish solid income before pursuing and I've conveyed that to her. It just hasn't been a "I have to do these things asap" deal for me. The kids I'm not sure either way. I've never felt I've needed them but I've also never felt I've hated them. She says that's something she has to have-i mean she works in childcare and has for 8 years so I understand where that's coming from. She doesn't want me to have them just for her sake and resent my life which was interesting to hear.
What it's going to come down to is if I can do some soul searching and really get some definite answers on what I want. I've put her as a priority so long i'm not aware of what I actually want (aside from making enough to retire soon and competing a bit in sports/finding a self employment niche that I enjoy and can support me/lifewise). We're still together although as of now. Counseling on Thursday.
Gained 15lbs on the cruise btw. Royal Caribbean has some solid food. Hope all is well with all ya'll
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*deleted*
I shouldn’t shit post here
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Hey all brief update. We're getting back in the swing of work and such and have talked a bit more.
She's come to terms that she has to change or the relationships not going to work. She stopped BC sunday night so I guess we'll see if that leads anywhere, However she wants to know if A)I'll want kids/ B)I'll want to be married.
Personally I'm not opposed to either-but i'm financially terrified of kids. I think both of those are things I'd rather advance or establish solid income before pursuing and I've conveyed that to her. It just hasn't been a "I have to do these things asap" deal for me. The kids I'm not sure either way. I've never felt I've needed them but I've also never felt I've hated them. She says that's something she has to have-i mean she works in childcare and has for 8 years so I understand where that's coming from. She doesn't want me to have them just for her sake and resent my life which was interesting to hear.
What it's going to come down to is if I can do some soul searching and really get some definite answers on what I want. I've put her as a priority so long i'm not aware of what I actually want (aside from making enough to retire soon and competing a bit in sports/finding a self employment niche that I enjoy and can support me/lifewise). We're still together although as of now. Counseling on Thursday.
Gained 15lbs on the cruise btw. Royal Caribbean has some solid food. Hope all is well with all ya'll
Welcome back. Good luck getting back into shape! I know what you mean about cruises and food. I hope your sunburn is healing.
I hope I don’t come across as an ass here because that is not my intention, but I want to point out that it feels like your thinking on this whole conundrum has gone backwards when you were away. You aren’t in a position to be answering her questions 1) and 2) without plugging the massive hole that is causing boat of your relationship to capsize. Deciding whether to have kids or whether you can afford them is a decision for someone in a strong, functional, committed relationship. You aren’t in one of those right now.
With all due respect and I say this out of a position of caring for you and your well- being, read back on what was discussed before you left for your cruise.
I hope the counseling session is productive.
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Hey all brief update. We're getting back in the swing of work and such and have talked a bit more.
She's come to terms that she has to change or the relationships not going to work. She stopped BC sunday night so I guess we'll see if that leads anywhere, However she wants to know if A)I'll want kids/ B)I'll want to be married.
Personally I'm not opposed to either-but i'm financially terrified of kids. I think both of those are things I'd rather advance or establish solid income before pursuing and I've conveyed that to her. It just hasn't been a "I have to do these things asap" deal for me. The kids I'm not sure either way. I've never felt I've needed them but I've also never felt I've hated them. She says that's something she has to have-i mean she works in childcare and has for 8 years so I understand where that's coming from. She doesn't want me to have them just for her sake and resent my life which was interesting to hear.
What it's going to come down to is if I can do some soul searching and really get some definite answers on what I want. I've put her as a priority so long i'm not aware of what I actually want (aside from making enough to retire soon and competing a bit in sports/finding a self employment niche that I enjoy and can support me/lifewise). We're still together although as of now. Counseling on Thursday.
Gained 15lbs on the cruise btw. Royal Caribbean has some solid food. Hope all is well with all ya'll
Welcome back. Good luck getting back into shape! I know what you mean about cruises and food. I hope your sunburn is healing.
I hope I don’t come across as an ass here because that is not my intention, but I want to point out that it feels like your thinking on this whole conundrum has gone backwards when you were away. You aren’t in a position to be answering her questions 1) and 2) without plugging the massive hole that is causing boat of your relationship to capsize. Deciding whether to have kids or whether you can afford them is a decision for someone in a strong, functional, committed relationship. You aren’t in one of those right now.
With all due respect and I say this out of a position of caring for you and your well- being, read back on what was discussed before you left for your cruise.
I hope the counseling session is productive.
Is it, though? In my opinion, responsibly deciding whether you want kids is something you mostly make up your mind about as an individual, and then find somebody who shares your orientation as a partner. If more people would do this, fewer of those tragic broke-up-because-one-wanted-kids-and-the-other-didn't stories would happen. If you don't want kids, don't partner up with someone who DOES want them.
So I think it's a pretty important consideration for OP, regardless of his relationship status.
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Hey all brief update. We're getting back in the swing of work and such and have talked a bit more.
She's come to terms that she has to change or the relationships not going to work. She stopped BC sunday night so I guess we'll see if that leads anywhere, However she wants to know if A)I'll want kids/ B)I'll want to be married.
Personally I'm not opposed to either-but i'm financially terrified of kids. I think both of those are things I'd rather advance or establish solid income before pursuing and I've conveyed that to her. It just hasn't been a "I have to do these things asap" deal for me. The kids I'm not sure either way. I've never felt I've needed them but I've also never felt I've hated them. She says that's something she has to have-i mean she works in childcare and has for 8 years so I understand where that's coming from. She doesn't want me to have them just for her sake and resent my life which was interesting to hear.
What it's going to come down to is if I can do some soul searching and really get some definite answers on what I want. I've put her as a priority so long i'm not aware of what I actually want (aside from making enough to retire soon and competing a bit in sports/finding a self employment niche that I enjoy and can support me/lifewise). We're still together although as of now. Counseling on Thursday.
Gained 15lbs on the cruise btw. Royal Caribbean has some solid food. Hope all is well with all ya'll
Welcome back. Good luck getting back into shape! I know what you mean about cruises and food. I hope your sunburn is healing.
I hope I don’t come across as an ass here because that is not my intention, but I want to point out that it feels like your thinking on this whole conundrum has gone backwards when you were away. You aren’t in a position to be answering her questions 1) and 2) without plugging the massive hole that is causing boat of your relationship to capsize. Deciding whether to have kids or whether you can afford them is a decision for someone in a strong, functional, committed relationship. You aren’t in one of those right now.
With all due respect and I say this out of a position of caring for you and your well- being, read back on what was discussed before you left for your cruise.
I hope the counseling session is productive.
Is it, though? In my opinion, responsibly deciding whether you want kids is something you mostly make up your mind about as an individual, and then find somebody who shares your orientation as a partner. If more people would do this, fewer of those tragic broke-up-because-one-wanted-kids-and-the-other-didn't stories would happen. If you don't want kids, don't partner up with someone who DOES want them.
So I think it's a pretty important consideration for OP, regardless of his relationship status.
I agree with this. It sounds like both are dealbreakers for girlfriend. It's good for both of them to figure out how they feel about this' i.e. if op feels pretty strongly against either of those things, he should let her know. If they are on the same page, I mean, their relationship might still not make it, but at least not for those reasons.
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Hey all brief update. We're getting back in the swing of work and such and have talked a bit more.
She's come to terms that she has to change or the relationships not going to work. She stopped BC sunday night so I guess we'll see if that leads anywhere, However she wants to know if A)I'll want kids/ B)I'll want to be married.
Personally I'm not opposed to either-but i'm financially terrified of kids. I think both of those are things I'd rather advance or establish solid income before pursuing and I've conveyed that to her. It just hasn't been a "I have to do these things asap" deal for me. The kids I'm not sure either way. I've never felt I've needed them but I've also never felt I've hated them. She says that's something she has to have-i mean she works in childcare and has for 8 years so I understand where that's coming from. She doesn't want me to have them just for her sake and resent my life which was interesting to hear.
What it's going to come down to is if I can do some soul searching and really get some definite answers on what I want. I've put her as a priority so long i'm not aware of what I actually want (aside from making enough to retire soon and competing a bit in sports/finding a self employment niche that I enjoy and can support me/lifewise). We're still together although as of now. Counseling on Thursday.
Gained 15lbs on the cruise btw. Royal Caribbean has some solid food. Hope all is well with all ya'll
Welcome back. Good luck getting back into shape! I know what you mean about cruises and food. I hope your sunburn is healing.
I hope I don’t come across as an ass here because that is not my intention, but I want to point out that it feels like your thinking on this whole conundrum has gone backwards when you were away. You aren’t in a position to be answering her questions 1) and 2) without plugging the massive hole that is causing boat of your relationship to capsize. Deciding whether to have kids or whether you can afford them is a decision for someone in a strong, functional, committed relationship. You aren’t in one of those right now.
With all due respect and I say this out of a position of caring for you and your well- being, read back on what was discussed before you left for your cruise.
I hope the counseling session is productive.
Is it, though? In my opinion, responsibly deciding whether you want kids is something you mostly make up your mind about as an individual, and then find somebody who shares your orientation as a partner. If more people would do this, fewer of those tragic broke-up-because-one-wanted-kids-and-the-other-didn't stories would happen. If you don't want kids, don't partner up with someone who DOES want them.
So I think it's a pretty important consideration for OP, regardless of his relationship status.
Thy is a fair critique. I think plenty of people know strongly in advance if they want kids or not and it is right to make that clear up front with a potential mate. Other people aren’t so clear. Maybe it is because they just don’t know whether they want to have kids yet. Maybe part of the indecision is that they aren’t with the right person and do struggle to see themselves having that person’s kids.
I clearly made that point poorly, but I stand behind my opinion that OP does not have a strong, commuted, functional romantic relationship and that is the first priority to sort out. Maybe a short cut is just acknowledging the differing values and cutting the losses short. Whether those values are marriage and kids or a healthy sexual relationship or valuing his needs as legitimate, whatever.
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Sorry, I really think the time for this discussion was a long time ago. Pretty sure it's too late to go back there. What an odd relationship--all these negotiations before sex can happen 7 years into it. At your age, don't you think a relationship where you both want to rip each other's clothes off would be more fun? Is this going to be your future: years of stalemate, followed by lengthy negotiations?
Sorry, there might be some tiny possibility of a future together after a parting of ways, and then coming together in a new way. That's how I see it, take it as you wish.
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I'm sorry OP. If you're contemplating everything in your relationship this much, you're just not meant to be together. I think you need to move on.
And if you both think that you're going to get married and then start having great sex and all will be well for the next 50 years, I'd think again. Lack of desire for sex only gets worse.
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Please use condoms until you decide whether or not you wish to have children.
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WTF? Why is she going off birth control? If she gets pregnant, you are WAY more locked into this relationship.
Speaking from personal and anecdotal experience, the fatigue and work related to kids is not particularly conducive to have a lot of energy and enthusiasm for sex.
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WTF? Why is she going off birth control? If she gets pregnant, you are WAY more locked into this relationship.
Speaking from personal and anecdotal experience, the fatigue and work related to kids is not particularly conducive to have a lot of energy and enthusiasm for sex.
See earlier in the thread. The thought is that birth control may be one of the underlying reasons behind her lack of dec drive.
But I agree with others that in the unlikely event that the relationship picks up again, another form of birth control is absolutely essential.
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If they start having sex, I'll wager she's pregnant in less than six months. This whole situation smells like a trap.
She desperately wants marriage and kids with him, he doesn't but has agreed she should go off birth control, now all she has to do is lay him once, on the right day, and she gets everything she wants and he's fucked. It's classic.
Wear a condom every time, OP, and be sure to retain possession of used ones. If you spill a single drop your life gets significantly more complicated and not necessarily in a good way.
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For once I agree with you Sol. Ugh!
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For once I agree with you Sol. Ugh!
I'm so sorry.
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Considering how effective condoms are for BC, this should happen, even if they are both trying really hard not to have a child.
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Hey all brief update. We're getting back in the swing of work and such and have talked a bit more.
She's come to terms that she has to change or the relationships not going to work. She stopped BC sunday night so I guess we'll see if that leads anywhere, However she wants to know if A)I'll want kids/ B)I'll want to be married.
Personally I'm not opposed to either-but i'm financially terrified of kids. I think both of those are things I'd rather advance or establish solid income before pursuing and I've conveyed that to her. It just hasn't been a "I have to do these things asap" deal for me. The kids I'm not sure either way. I've never felt I've needed them but I've also never felt I've hated them. She says that's something she has to have-i mean she works in childcare and has for 8 years so I understand where that's coming from. She doesn't want me to have them just for her sake and resent my life which was interesting to hear.
What it's going to come down to is if I can do some soul searching and really get some definite answers on what I want. I've put her as a priority so long i'm not aware of what I actually want (aside from making enough to retire soon and competing a bit in sports/finding a self employment niche that I enjoy and can support me/lifewise). We're still together although as of now. Counseling on Thursday.
Gained 15lbs on the cruise btw. Royal Caribbean has some solid food. Hope all is well with all ya'll
People who decide not to have children don't always hate children. Very often not, I think. We just don't want to have any ourselves and give them the commitment they deserve.
As long as you are financially terrified of having children, it is not wise to try to get them. Wait until you think it is a natural next step or something to look foreward to.
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Hey all-
The reasoning behind her going off BC is to see if her zero libido is tied to that. If she had wanted to get pregnant she could have stopped taking it without telling me (fucked I know) and initiated. The thing is she hasn't had a libido for years and was happy to continue and advance the relationship without it as it just wasn't a issue for her.
Currently as it stands-she's looking for my fundamental values towards marriage and especially kids as those are musts for her. Without those aspects it's a 100% deal breaker (after this long she sees it as if I don't know if I want to have kids/marry her then when if ever-which I get as it'll have been 8 years this fall). Like it or not girls are on a 30s biological clock so if she doesn't see it as a future option with me it makes sense to seek out someone who does actively want kids. Regardless of the outcome I do need to decide both because in this relationship/in possible others-these are important fundamentals to agree on.
And yes-financially kids are scary. I handle most of the finances and don't make enough to support a child currently. I consider myself pretty frugal and am pursuing all sorts of side ventures/other jobs in order to secure a more flexible financial future. Her values are having a loving family even if it means living on less etc which is fine.
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Sorry, I really think the time for this discussion was a long time ago. Pretty sure it's too late to go back there. What an odd relationship--all these negotiations before sex can happen 7 years into it. At your age, don't you think a relationship where you both want to rip each other's clothes off would be more fun? Is this going to be your future: years of stalemate, followed by lengthy negotiations?
Sorry, there might be some tiny possibility of a future together after a parting of ways, and then coming together in a new way. That's how I see it, take it as you wish.
I feel like honeymoon vs lower phases are real in just about any functional relationship. That being said this is unique as it's not that we don't just have sex-she has no libido. She knows it's not normal but isn't sure whether or not is is fixable. The only hormonal thing she's taken is BC and aside from prior trauma due to our relationship it's possible that she's just become asexual over time.
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If they start having sex, I'll wager she's pregnant in less than six months. This whole situation smells like a trap.
She desperately wants marriage and kids with him, he doesn't but has agreed she should go off birth control, now all she has to do is lay him once, on the right day, and she gets everything she wants and he's fucked. It's classic.
Wear a condom every time, OP, and be sure to retain possession of used ones. If you spill a single drop your life gets significantly more complicated and not necessarily in a good way.
Yeah I've been trying to give OP's partner the benefit of the doubt, but it looks like the only circumstance under which she'll have sex with him is if it will lead to pregnancy. If true, she hasn't compromised at all, she's just found another angle to get what she wants without helping to fix the core problems of the relationship.
A similar thing happened to someone very close to me. When the relationship inevitably fell apart they were three back-to-back kids in. He didn't want to have a fourth kid, so she went out and had another guy impregnate her instead. Their lives were so enmeshed at this point he couldn't bring himself to leave. Obviously the exact same thing won't necessarily happen to you, just wanted to share a horror story of how this can sometimes go for people.
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Hey all brief update. We're getting back in the swing of work and such and have talked a bit more.
She's come to terms that she has to change or the relationships not going to work. She stopped BC sunday night so I guess we'll see if that leads anywhere, However she wants to know if A)I'll want kids/ B)I'll want to be married.
Personally I'm not opposed to either-but i'm financially terrified of kids. I think both of those are things I'd rather advance or establish solid income before pursuing and I've conveyed that to her. It just hasn't been a "I have to do these things asap" deal for me. The kids I'm not sure either way. I've never felt I've needed them but I've also never felt I've hated them. She says that's something she has to have-i mean she works in childcare and has for 8 years so I understand where that's coming from. She doesn't want me to have them just for her sake and resent my life which was interesting to hear.
What it's going to come down to is if I can do some soul searching and really get some definite answers on what I want. I've put her as a priority so long i'm not aware of what I actually want (aside from making enough to retire soon and competing a bit in sports/finding a self employment niche that I enjoy and can support me/lifewise). We're still together although as of now. Counseling on Thursday.
Gained 15lbs on the cruise btw. Royal Caribbean has some solid food. Hope all is well with all ya'll
Welcome back. Good luck getting back into shape! I know what you mean about cruises and food. I hope your sunburn is healing.
I hope I don’t come across as an ass here because that is not my intention, but I want to point out that it feels like your thinking on this whole conundrum has gone backwards when you were away. You aren’t in a position to be answering her questions 1) and 2) without plugging the massive hole that is causing boat of your relationship to capsize. Deciding whether to have kids or whether you can afford them is a decision for someone in a strong, functional, committed relationship. You aren’t in one of those right now.
With all due respect and I say this out of a position of caring for you and your well- being, read back on what was discussed before you left for your cruise.
I hope the counseling session is productive.
Is it, though? In my opinion, responsibly deciding whether you want kids is something you mostly make up your mind about as an individual, and then find somebody who shares your orientation as a partner. If more people would do this, fewer of those tragic broke-up-because-one-wanted-kids-and-the-other-didn't stories would happen. If you don't want kids, don't partner up with someone who DOES want them.
So I think it's a pretty important consideration for OP, regardless of his relationship status.
Thy is a fair critique. I think plenty of people know strongly in advance if they want kids or not and it is right to make that clear up front with a potential mate. Other people aren’t so clear. Maybe it is because they just don’t know whether they want to have kids yet. Maybe part of the indecision is that they aren’t with the right person and do struggle to see themselves having that person’s kids.
I clearly made that point poorly, but I stand behind my opinion that OP does not have a strong, commuted, functional romantic relationship and that is the first priority to sort out. Maybe a short cut is just acknowledging the differing values and cutting the losses short. Whether those values are marriage and kids or a healthy sexual relationship or valuing his needs as legitimate, whatever.
Yeah she definitly does and I-well who knows. Like I MIGHT want them in the future but that's dependent on factors out of my control to a extent. I might feel a yearning for them once i've got a stable career and less young hobbies etc. I might once I spend more time with them. The fact is right now I don't have the definitive answer.
I think she may be viewing it as the short cut you mentioned. Like the trying make herself a sexual person despite not being one for years and years to her is enormous pressure (if she can't do it we can't have a happy relationship from my side)-and if our fundamental values don't line up on these things she needs from a life partner-we should pursue other people/break up. On the other hand if I do share said values then it makes it worth it to her to pursue this relationship as she wants that in the future. It's funny though-I've been sitting around wondering and just drawing blanks on marriage and such. I'm fairly practical and analytical-and from seeing my parents and hers divorce-you kind of understand no marriage is safe from a commitment standpoint. On the other hand, taking care of a family and loved ones is something I believe is a future goal in life.
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If they start having sex, I'll wager she's pregnant in less than six months. This whole situation smells like a trap.
She desperately wants marriage and kids with him, he doesn't but has agreed she should go off birth control, now all she has to do is lay him once, on the right day, and she gets everything she wants and he's fucked. It's classic.
Wear a condom every time, OP, and be sure to retain possession of used ones. If you spill a single drop your life gets significantly more complicated and not necessarily in a good way.
Yeah I've been trying to give OP's partner the benefit of the doubt, but it looks like the only circumstance under which she'll have sex with him is if it will lead to pregnancy. If true, she hasn't compromised at all, she's just found another angle to get what she wants without helping to fix the core problems of the relationship.
A similar thing happened to someone very close to me. When the relationship inevitably fell apart they were three back-to-back kids in. He didn't want to have a fourth kid, so she went out and had another guy impregnate her instead. Their lives were so enmeshed at this point he couldn't bring himself to leave. Obviously the exact same thing won't necessarily happen to you, just wanted to share a horror story of how this can sometimes go for people.
jeeeeeesus dude. I'm not trying to just bang to bang here. She's getting off BC to see if it changes her libido. If not i've told her that's not a relationship we can work on or I can be happy in. She hasn't had one for 6 years. That means no desire not just towards me/but sex in generally and she doesn't really get what she's missing. If (and I say if because I'm more than likely not going to be able to come up with a direct yes answer to her big life goals without a more functional relationship thus resulting in a separation) we were to engage in sex again; it'd be the safest of the safe. She wants kids in the future-not now and she's made that clear. She also wanted to be married before having kids and such.
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There are also non-hormonal birth control options.
They are much less popular but they do exist and are quite effective.
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If they start having sex, I'll wager she's pregnant in less than six months. This whole situation smells like a trap.
She desperately wants marriage and kids with him, he doesn't but has agreed she should go off birth control, now all she has to do is lay him once, on the right day, and she gets everything she wants and he's fucked. It's classic.
Wear a condom every time, OP, and be sure to retain possession of used ones. If you spill a single drop your life gets significantly more complicated and not necessarily in a good way.
Yeah I've been trying to give OP's partner the benefit of the doubt, but it looks like the only circumstance under which she'll have sex with him is if it will lead to pregnancy. If true, she hasn't compromised at all, she's just found another angle to get what she wants without helping to fix the core problems of the relationship.
A similar thing happened to someone very close to me. When the relationship inevitably fell apart they were three back-to-back kids in. He didn't want to have a fourth kid, so she went out and had another guy impregnate her instead. Their lives were so enmeshed at this point he couldn't bring himself to leave. Obviously the exact same thing won't necessarily happen to you, just wanted to share a horror story of how this can sometimes go for people.
jeeeeeesus dude. I'm not trying to just bang to bang here. She's getting off BC to see if it changes her libido. If not i've told her that's not a relationship we can work on or I can be happy in. She hasn't had one for 6 years. That means no desire not just towards me/but sex in generally and she doesn't really get what she's missing. If (and I say if because I'm more than likely not going to be able to come up with a direct yes answer to her big life goals without a more functional relationship thus resulting in a separation) we were to engage in sex again; it'd be the safest of the safe. She wants kids in the future-not now and she's made that clear. She also wanted to be married before having kids and such.
Ok cool. I hope getting off BC kickstarts her libido and you can rebuild the relationship. Best of luck!
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If they start having sex, I'll wager she's pregnant in less than six months. This whole situation smells like a trap.
She desperately wants marriage and kids with him, he doesn't but has agreed she should go off birth control, now all she has to do is lay him once, on the right day, and she gets everything she wants and he's fucked. It's classic.
Wear a condom every time, OP, and be sure to retain possession of used ones. If you spill a single drop your life gets significantly more complicated and not necessarily in a good way.
Yeah I've been trying to give OP's partner the benefit of the doubt, but it looks like the only circumstance under which she'll have sex with him is if it will lead to pregnancy. If true, she hasn't compromised at all, she's just found another angle to get what she wants without helping to fix the core problems of the relationship.
A similar thing happened to someone very close to me. When the relationship inevitably fell apart they were three back-to-back kids in. He didn't want to have a fourth kid, so she went out and had another guy impregnate her instead. Their lives were so enmeshed at this point he couldn't bring himself to leave. Obviously the exact same thing won't necessarily happen to you, just wanted to share a horror story of how this can sometimes go for people.
jeeeeeesus dude. I'm not trying to just bang to bang here. She's getting off BC to see if it changes her libido. If not i've told her that's not a relationship we can work on or I can be happy in. She hasn't had one for 6 years. That means no desire not just towards me/but sex in generally and she doesn't really get what she's missing. If (and I say if because I'm more than likely not going to be able to come up with a direct yes answer to her big life goals without a more functional relationship thus resulting in a separation) we were to engage in sex again; it'd be the safest of the safe. She wants kids in the future-not now and she's made that clear. She also wanted to be married before having kids and such.
Ok cool. I hope getting off BC kickstarts her libido and you can rebuild the relationship. Best of luck!
Same lol I mean hey it's all we can try eh? But thanks for looking out. I know it sounds crazy out of context "she's going off bc to try to have sex".
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Same lol I mean hey it's all we can try eh? But thanks for looking out. I know it sounds crazy out of context "she's going off bc to try to have sex".
Something to consider too is that this is a short term solution even if you get married.
Unless you expect her to maintain the same drive for the rest of her life, that will almost assuredly change as you two get older, have kids, etc.
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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.
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Same lol I mean hey it's all we can try eh? But thanks for looking out. I know it sounds crazy out of context "she's going off bc to try to have sex".
Something to consider too is that this is a short term solution even if you get married.
Unless you expect her to maintain the same drive for the rest of her life, that will almost assuredly change as you two get older, have kids, etc.
Yeah; I don't expect a GOGOGO mentality from anyone forever really in that aspect(it's neigh impossible especially with time/life/age and changes); but having some sort of libido is a must vs none. I've been reading on asexuality/demi sexuality and relationships between them and standard libido partners a lot and it's been kind of nutty. I personally can't be in a relationship unless someone has a libido/a lot of people in those previously listed situations go outside the relationship on one side or the other but I wouldn't do that knowingly or unknowingly-if i'm with someone I'm with them.
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If they start having sex, I'll wager she's pregnant in less than six months. This whole situation smells like a trap.
She desperately wants marriage and kids with him, he doesn't but has agreed she should go off birth control, now all she has to do is lay him once, on the right day, and she gets everything she wants and he's fucked. It's classic.
Wear a condom every time, OP, and be sure to retain possession of used ones. If you spill a single drop your life gets significantly more complicated and not necessarily in a good way.
Sadly, this is the first thing that popped into my head, too.
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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.
That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever. Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.
That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever. Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
All this uncertainty basically indicates no. If after 7 years, you still don't know if you want a life with her, that's not a good sign. Have you been going to individual therapy too? Because in couples counseling, she is turning it around to what she needs, but alone someone can help you sort out your own feelings and doubts.
Your inexperience is working against you here, because you can't see that this isn't what a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible relationship looks like. Almost everyone here is trying to tell you that, but until you have one, you won't understand what you are missing. It hurts to break up with someone, and disappoint them, but it's much better than stringing along this false hope and trying to force feelings that don't exist.
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If she had wanted to get pregnant she could have stopped taking it without telling me (fucked I know) and initiated.
I mean, yes but it takes two to tango. You're putting all the onus for BC on her. That's not fair, of course not telling your partner your BC is changing isn't ideal but there is still some accountability on your end if you do have sex without a condom or any other type of male prophylactic.
As others have said, please be wary with sex with someone who wants kids while you're not sure. After reading this thread, I can't believe this is still a viable relationship but you will know better than anyone if it still makes sense to continue. The thought processes involved by both are so different from my own that I'm intrigued as to how it unfolds. Good luck!
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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.
That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever. Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
All this uncertainty basically indicates no. If after 7 years, you still don't know if you want a life with her, that's not a good sign. Have you been going to individual therapy too? Because in couples counseling, she is turning it around to what she needs, but alone someone can help you sort out your own feelings and doubts.
Your inexperience is working against you here, because you can't see that this isn't what a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible relationship looks like. Almost everyone here is trying to tell you that, but until you have one, you won't understand what you are missing. It hurts to break up with someone, and disappoint them, but it's much better than stringing along this false hope and trying to force feelings that don't exist.
I want to second and third and thumb’s up this comment. People in solid relationships WANT to be together, they want the same things, they see eye-to-eye. Not always 100% about everything, but the major thugs click.
I don’t know you and I am not inside your relationship, but my guess would be that the reluctance and uncertainty you feel are a combo of the fact that you are young and haven’t gotten out there to LIVE and date and have fun but have been living the life of a monk for years, and that you know deep down inside this relationship isn’t everything you need and want. You deserve to have fun. You deserve someone who wants to jump you. You deserve to enjoy an easy relationship where you aren’t agonizing and negotiating and second-guessing your own very reasonable needs.
We can’t make you see this but we all hope you work your way to that place eventually.
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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.
That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever. Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
All this uncertainty basically indicates no. If after 7 years, you still don't know if you want a life with her, that's not a good sign. Have you been going to individual therapy too? Because in couples counseling, she is turning it around to what she needs, but alone someone can help you sort out your own feelings and doubts.
Your inexperience is working against you here, because you can't see that this isn't what a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible relationship looks like. Almost everyone here is trying to tell you that, but until you have one, you won't understand what you are missing. It hurts to break up with someone, and disappoint them, but it's much better than stringing along this false hope and trying to force feelings that don't exist.
I want to second and third and thumb’s up this comment. People in solid relationships WANT to be together, they want the same things, they see eye-to-eye. Not always 100% about everything, but the major thugs click.
I don’t know you and I am not inside your relationship, but my guess would be that the reluctance and uncertainty you feel are a combo of the fact that you are going and haven’t gotten out there to LIVE and date and have fun but have been loving the life of a monk for years, and that you know deep down inside this relationship isn’t everything you need and want. You deserve to have fun. You deserve someone who wants to jump you. You deserve to enjoy an easy relationship where you aren’t agonizing and negotiating and second-guessing your own very reasonable needs.
We can’t make you see this but we all hope you work your way to that place eventually.
I agree with this.
And the only way to deal with the uncertainty and reluctance you feel is to take it as the sign that it is. End the relationship, and go out and live. The only way to get the experience you need to know what you want and what you don't is to go out and have other experiences. Other relationships. Only by doing this will you learn that what you have right now isn't ultimately a fulfilling relationship. Not for you, and not for her.
Basically, OP, at this point it boils down to the fact that you have two choices.
One, stay with your friend, and always wonder whether this was the right relationship. (And probably, eventually figure out it wasn't the right one, and break up years from now -- probably after you're married and have kids together.)
Two, break up with your friend. And go out and live life, learn about relationships, learn what you do and don't want. And eventually, find the relationship that you are sure of, and that you are 100% committed to, no question, no doubt in your mind at all.
I know which one I'd prefer.
I bet deep down you do, too.
It's just that number #1 seems easier in the short term. It's the passive choice. And as you've said, you're kind of a passive person. But long-term, it will be the harder, more complicated decision, and will cause more pain and suffering, probably to more people. Especially if you have kids.
#2 is ripping the band-aid off now. And then looking back later, thinking, "Wow, I am SO glad I made that decision. What was I thinking?"
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(Everyone has said break up, you'll be happier for it in the end and so will she. I agree, but...)
In the meantime, OP, since you're trying the her-no-birth-control-hormones thing, please consider that if her libido returns, she doesn't have to consciously or even unconsciously plan to trap you. The simple logical consequence of libido is that she will end up with a child.
You have responsible intentions and will be the presumed father. Hence, 18+ years of paying, whether you stay with Mommy or not. I strongly urge you implement thorough consistent non-hormonal birth control until after a wholehearted wedding ceremony.
Think it won't come to that (pun intended)? Meet my Responsible Dead Best Friend (RDBF...let's call him Ronnie). Ronnie's girlfriend when he was 19 was smart, pretty, responsible. Used her birth control every day. Forgot once. Boom, Child Number One. They married, but divorced after 2 or 3 tumultuous years. Eighteen years of payments. Child called dad and complained about her problems until age 40, when Ronnie got fatal cancer. This could be you, except Girlfriend's told you she's not using any BC, and you waited a few years...payments, calls, tumult, divorce, and death are all possible for you!
Ronnie's girlfriend when he was 29 was smart, pretty, responsible, and forgiving of his involvement with the tumult of Wife 1 and responsibilities of Child 1. Used her birth control every day. Forgot once. Boom, Child Number Two. They married, but divorced after 8 or 9 tumultuous years. Eighteen years of payments. Child hung out with dad before and after juvie, staying in touch until age 30, when Ronnie got fatal cancer. This could be you, except Girlfriend's told you she's not using any BC, and you don't have second wife yet...payments, tumult, divorce, juvie and death are all possible for you!
Want another one? I dated a beautiful woman we'll call Brunette Barbie, because she regaled me with the tale that if I thought she was hot at 25, I should have seen her at 19, when she worked in retail and a little girl in line pointed at her and told Mom, "Look, mom! Barbie!!" She had darling 2 year old twin girls. They exist because one night, she felt like going to a bar, and idly looked at the cute man there and thought "Oh, his lips would look so cute on a baby." They were conceived in the ensuing single night. Mom was right.
Nothing but death is guaranteed, but I advise you to plan ahead re birth control. Libido is very demanding once it starts.
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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.
Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).
I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.
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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.
Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. On the other hand, this is mostly a thread focused on the negatives. There are positives-She buys my clothes on occasion/picks out my work outfits, does the laundry, cleans up when I'm out of house, gives me little gifts and texts at random that show appreciation, understands when I have a boys night out/just want to kick it doesnstairs and play some games, shows me off on social media platforms and is generally a fantastic person. We are more than friends yet a far cry away from where we each think we are. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).
I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need. I'm hoping to broach these larger conflicting mindsets at counseling tomorrow.
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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.
Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).
I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.
You've committed to this idea of 'seeing if you can make it work,' but I don't know if you've actually addressed if you should make it work. All else aside, it sounds like you are not excited about the idea of marrying this woman and having a family and a life with her. That's not something you can work on. You shouldn't have to exhaust every option to save the relationship - if the joy is gone, there's nothing left to save. She has a vision of her future life, and you're having a hard time picturing yourself as part of that life. That image of 10 years from now, married with 2 kids, or whatever details she's spun - you're obviously not looking at that image and saying 'Yeah, that's what I want, I can't wait to get there.' Ultimately, it doesn't matter the reason: if you're not quite ready but you will be one day, vs you will never want that ever, the answer is still the same right now.
You don't want the same things in life right now. That's ok, there's no shame on either of you for that, but you can't force yourself to want it. That applies equally to her, on having a sex life, and to you, on having a family. You can't force yourself to want what you don't want.
These kinds of breakups are way harder than the other kind - it's incredibly difficult to accept that you can be so compatible and happy together, and yet not want the same future. My last ex did the difficult thing - I was pushing toward engagement and children, and he finally said 'I'm not excited about marrying you, so it's time to end it." My sister and her ex had a harder time - they'd already gotten married, and he finally realized that he wasn't ready and might never be ready for the family that she desperately wanted. They had to go through a painful divorce, not just a painful breakup.
Dragging things out only makes it harder.
It's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.
I don't think this statement is necessarily true. The what/why/how isn't as important as you think it is. You are not excited to marry this person. Full stop. Why you aren't is something you may never fully understand. Preventing yourself from moving on in quest for some kind of meaning seems almost cruel, to both of you.
Finally, I suspect you'll find it much easier to understand what you do and don't need once you are no longer in this relationship. Right now, your expectations and understanding of the other person are interfering with your understanding of your own needs. (That's the plural you throughout, just to be clear)
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First off, let me say that, like all PP, I've been there, done that, and I too, do not believe this is the right relationship for you. However, that said, here's an idea that I don't think has been presented yet.
Back off, start over. One of you move out to another place. Let her go off her BC, go to a female horomone doc and get a full hormone workup. Then you two start dating all over. Not as the "been together nearly every day of the last 7 years" kind of dates, but intentionally set it all up as if you were just getting to know each other. Go out on dates - don't go "in" to one another's homes. Once a week, not all the time. Don't text 24/7, just keep it casual, as if you were just getting to know each other.
She wants the security of an engagement before she will pursue sex - fine, treat her as a good, virgin girl with utmost hands-off respect for now. Just casually date and live separately. You try to look at her from a new perspective - not who she has been to you since you were teenagers, not who she has been through this difficult last few weeks, but as a new person - get to know who she is right now, today, tomorrow, next week. TAKE YOUR TIME. Make it clear that sex, engagement, everything is off the table, but you want an opportunity for each of you to genuinely start over and see where it takes you.
If spending time on a few dates and listening to her talk, brings out the tiger in you (if you know what I mean), then flirt with her - but don't touch. See if you courting her all over again brings out the tiger in her. If it does NOT, in either or both of you, then there's nowhere to go and no pretending. If it's EH, that's not good enough either.
If you move out, and stop playing house, and get clear that it's not just going to drag on the way it has been, it will probably open up the field of vision for each of you. What is life like on my own, is it so bad, is it pretty good, oh, look, there are other guys/girls out there who flirt with me or catch my eye! Who knew? ALso, you both need to be clear with your friends and family on the fact that you've moved out and taken a step back, and you need to be going out with your friends. You may or may not want to open up the possibility of dating other people.
Once you remove the convenience and comfortableness of living in the same house, and the known quantity of "being a couple", and you are both clear that you are NOT getting engaged, you are back to dating or courting, it may change your perspectives. She also can fully understand and live with the reality of choosing to NOT have sex until engagement (or marriage) and that's perfectly ok (I am one who is a fan of that, myself), but it's a different track and you both need to experience life on that track - no living together, no snuggles in bed, no automatic partner/date for events, no comingled bills.
I am not the dog/pet person that many people are, but you guys need to just make the call as to whom the dogs will live with and suck it up. Dogs are not children, and if you think it's hard to decide the doggie issues, and can't face that, neither of you are ready for marriage anyways. One of you take the dogs (I recommend her, she may need comfort more than you after the moving out, and it will make it easier for you two if/when you split ways permanently), and arrange for a weekly doggie date together with the dogs at a dog park or something. You don't need to offer ongoing financial support for the dogs or anything, just let her take them.
I think this isn't the right relationship for either of you. You should have someone you're just crazy about, like can't go to sleep at night because you're so excited about this person. And that person should make you feel like a million freaking bucks, like she can't wait to see you and that includes physical desire for you. That's HUGELY important! And this girl deserves that too!! If you move out, go back to brand-new dating, and intentionally court her, and the sparks aren't flying hot and heavy inside each one of you for the other, then set her free! She is scared, and probably her girlfriends are getting engaged, and she might be feeling an internal clock, but she is scared, and you need to be the stronger one here, for her benefit, as well as yours!
I would advise to just cut it off now, clean, and be done, but if you can't face that yet, then completely step back. Have her move out, give her 3-5 weeks to make other plans and you go stay with a friend or parents during that time. She takes the dogs, you guys go on a "first date" and really treat it as such. It's been so long, you may not even know what that would look like - ask your buddies. Something casual, low key, in a group, etc. TALK with her, you probably think you know everything about her, but maybe you don't. And, if she truly just needs to feel "chosen" (as it sounds like she keeps saying), then you choosing her for a date, and to give your full attention to, maybe that will spark her libido. And even if it does, don't go there physically. Keep it hands-off. Continue dating, slowly. START OVER, and give it 2-4 months max. If after that time, you're not 100% IN LOVE and CAN'T WAIT to start your married life with this woman, and she feels totally the same way, including having the major physical hots for you, then you both need to face up and YOU need to be the stronger person and call it done. I highly recommend that you include the option of seeing other people in this dating period, even if neither of you have that intention to begin with. If you know the option is there, one or both of you may find your eyes opened in ways they haven't been over the last few years.
I think you're on the right track, you're just hesitant, you don't want to hurt your best friend, of course, and you are an honorable guy. You will get to the right place, hopefully before too much more damage is done. Be strong.
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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.
Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).
I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.
Every person reading who has ever had a major break up is sighing and shaking their head.
Yep. The whole "we have to exhaust all of our options in order to be SURE that we aren't walking away prematurely, because although we both know that our relationship is all sorts of messed up, there's a lot of good there that neither of us want to lose" song has been sung a million times before.
It's okay, this is your first time, so it seems totally rational to you. We get it.
However, I maintain what I posted earlier, which you never responded to, that doing what you are doing is possibly the worst thing for HER.
I don't see this ending well for her. You will be fine, and if/when you finally break up, you will have all of the certainty and closure you need in order to feel solid and self assured that you made the right decision.
She on the other hand will have pushed herself far out of her comfort zone while doubling down on banking on your commitment to her to make her feel better about herself, which is a losing strategy no matter what happens.
The more you play along with her unhealthy issues, the worse off she will be, no matter what the outcome.
Understand this clearly: what you are doing right now is almost guaranteed to damage her more. You are voluntarily damaging her more.
It feels like a reasonable, good guy move to give it your all before pulling the plug. It feels like the "right" thing to do, but it isn't. Not even a little bit.
She needs help. She needs her own therapist to help her work on her own issues, that she has very unhealthily attributed to you.
Her desperation to get you to commit is pathological. I've said it multiple times already, she doesn't have rational reasons for wanting to marry you. She's not passionately in love with you and dying to commit herself to you, she's deeply insecure and desperately hoping that you committing to her in terms of marriage will make her feel whole and valuable as a person.
It's nuts.
And you are encouraging it!
You're not a good guy staying with her and fueling this nonsense concept that everything will be fine as long as her sex drive comes back.
Oh my fucking god.
Your relationship problems are SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that you don'tt had sex. So much bigger.
Based on everything you've shared about just how deeply emotionally dysfunctional she is, I actually think it's cruel to keep her on the hook like this. I think it's cruel to let her desperately try to sexually please you when she's obviously really messed up about it and is OBVIOUSLY banking on it getting her a ring/husband/baby/whatever thing she thinks will fix her broken, broken emotional psyche.
Don't do this to her.
If you actually love her, don't do this to her.
It's not kind, it's not caring, it's not love.
If you love her, let her get the help she needs to heal her self esteem. And *that* she needs to do alone.
The only loving move here is to let go before this gets a lot uglier than it needs to be. I know it doesn't feel that way. I know it's hard to internalize what I'm saying.
Here's hoping some of it sinks in, for her sake. She needs help, she doesn't need you.
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Her desperation to get you to commit is pathological. I've said it multiple times already, she doesn't have rational reasons for wanting to marry you. She's not passionately in love with you and dying to commit herself to you, she's deeply insecure and desperately hoping that you committing to her in terms of marriage will make her feel whole and valuable as a person.
It's nuts.
And you are encouraging it!
You're not a good guy staying with her and fueling this nonsense concept that everything will be fine as long as her sex drive comes back.
Oh my fucking god.
Your relationship problems are SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that you don'tt had sex. So much bigger.
Don't forget the emotional needs of OP. Perhaps once he hits it again after 7 long years of tryin', he'll be over it for good. The conquest will be complete and he can move on to bigger and better things. Now he's in it and can't get out without one last lay.
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After catching up on all of this, I only have one suggestion that I did not see mentioned..
Have her read this thread in it's entirety. Discuss the next day. Make the decision.
Maybe you have managed to explain something here in such a way she did not understand but she will see how heavy it weighs on you. She will be appalled, sympathetic, maybe even indifferent but it will be the catalyst for the way ahead.
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After catching up on all of this, I only have one suggestion that I did not see mentioned..
Have her read this thread in it's entirety. Discuss the next day. Make the decision.
Maybe you have managed to explain something here in such a way she did not understand but she will see how heavy it weighs on you. She will be appalled, sympathetic, maybe even indifferent but it will be the catalyst for the way ahead.
Woof, not sure about that one. She won't even confide in her close friends about it. Catalyst it'd be-but also incredibly hurtful to read peoples opinions from the outside (I'm a bit more thick-skinned)
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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.
Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).
I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.
Every person reading who has ever had a major break up is sighing and shaking their head.
Yep. The whole "we have to exhaust all of our options in order to be SURE that we aren't walking away prematurely, because although we both know that our relationship is all sorts of messed up, there's a lot of good there that neither of us want to lose" song has been sung a million times before.
It's okay, this is your first time, so it seems totally rational to you. We get it.
However, I maintain what I posted earlier, which you never responded to, that doing what you are doing is possibly the worst thing for HER.
I don't see this ending well for her. You will be fine, and if/when you finally break up, you will have all of the certainty and closure you need in order to feel solid and self assured that you made the right decision.
She on the other hand will have pushed herself far out of her comfort zone while doubling down on banking on your commitment to her to make her feel better about herself, which is a losing strategy no matter what happens.
The more you play along with her unhealthy issues, the worse off she will be, no matter what the outcome.
Understand this clearly: what you are doing right now is almost guaranteed to damage her more. You are voluntarily damaging her more.
It feels like a reasonable, good guy move to give it your all before pulling the plug. It feels like the "right" thing to do, but it isn't. Not even a little bit.
She needs help. She needs her own therapist to help her work on her own issues, that she has very unhealthily attributed to you.
Her desperation to get you to commit is pathological. I've said it multiple times already, she doesn't have rational reasons for wanting to marry you. She's not passionately in love with you and dying to commit herself to you, she's deeply insecure and desperately hoping that you committing to her in terms of marriage will make her feel whole and valuable as a person.
It's nuts.
And you are encouraging it!
You're not a good guy staying with her and fueling this nonsense concept that everything will be fine as long as her sex drive comes back.
Oh my fucking god.
Your relationship problems are SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that you don'tt had sex. So much bigger.
Based on everything you've shared about just how deeply emotionally dysfunctional she is, I actually think it's cruel to keep her on the hook like this. I think it's cruel to let her desperately try to sexually please you when she's obviously really messed up about it and is OBVIOUSLY banking on it getting her a ring/husband/baby/whatever thing she thinks will fix her broken, broken emotional psyche.
Don't do this to her.
If you actually love her, don't do this to her.
It's not kind, it's not caring, it's not love.
If you love her, let her get the help she needs to heal her self esteem. And *that* she needs to do alone.
The only loving move here is to let go before this gets a lot uglier than it needs to be. I know it doesn't feel that way. I know it's hard to internalize what I'm saying.
Here's hoping some of it sinks in, for her sake. She needs help, she doesn't need you.
It sinks in, i'm just trying to think of the best way to tell her how I know making an effort to change on both ends trying to make eachother feel differently is more detrimental to us than breaking up. She's very much of the "all we can do is try" mentality.
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I would suggest a copper iud as a mostly foolproof non hormonal contraceptive. It shouldn't affect libido, and fertility returns to normal immediately after removal.
It's my experience that you can't force the feeling of commitment or wanting kids. With my ex, I was always unsure, didn't really see that future, even though we had been together a while and lived together. With my current partner, I know that's what I want, we have talked about it, and it feels right to be making these plans with someone who is totally on board with our shared goals. Anything less than that degree of commitment and uncertainty is unfair for both of you. As you said, she's approaching the age where she needs to find a life partner to have kids. If you force this, you probably will never find out what it is to build a mutually satisfying partnership with someone who is compatible in all the ways that matter.
From the inside, you probably can't see it, but to everyone reading what you write and the subtext, it looks like she is jerking you around to get her way. She has her goals (ring, marriage, kids) and she sees you as a provider and sperm donor. Are you going to settle for a relationship where the only sex you ever get is out of duty or to make kids? Are you going to settle for a woman who won't try to meet you halfway on your desires unless you pay her off with a ring?
Its harsh to put it that way, I know. But your responses are somewhat dodging the real questions you face, and circling back to what she wants every time. Put yourself first, because you can't make someone else happy by sacrificing yourself.
That's just it-I'm not sure what I want. And it is unfair if I can't justifiably tell her I want this and this and expect her to want to advance/change herself in a relationship she had thought of as forever. Part of this may be due to lack of life experience and goals with relationships, part of it may be hesitation because I've been lacking important factors in our relationship, part may be because I'm just indecisive naturally unless there is a clear cut math proven theory that states why something is better-but it all comes down to me doing/defining what I want. I have not been pressured into engagement/marriage so i've determined at the very least I want a change in our relationship. More so I want a time defined by which we manage to make changes or decide to separate as we both feel the pressure and it's stressful on both ends.
All this uncertainty basically indicates no. If after 7 years, you still don't know if you want a life with her, that's not a good sign. Have you been going to individual therapy too? Because in couples counseling, she is turning it around to what she needs, but alone someone can help you sort out your own feelings and doubts.
Your inexperience is working against you here, because you can't see that this isn't what a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible relationship looks like. Almost everyone here is trying to tell you that, but until you have one, you won't understand what you are missing. It hurts to break up with someone, and disappoint them, but it's much better than stringing along this false hope and trying to force feelings that don't exist.
I want to second and third and thumb’s up this comment. People in solid relationships WANT to be together, they want the same things, they see eye-to-eye. Not always 100% about everything, but the major thugs click.
I don’t know you and I am not inside your relationship, but my guess would be that the reluctance and uncertainty you feel are a combo of the fact that you are young and haven’t gotten out there to LIVE and date and have fun but have been living the life of a monk for years, and that you know deep down inside this relationship isn’t everything you need and want. You deserve to have fun. You deserve someone who wants to jump you. You deserve to enjoy an easy relationship where you aren’t agonizing and negotiating and second-guessing your own very reasonable needs.
We can’t make you see this but we all hope you work your way to that place eventually.
That's the thing; we both want to be together. I totally agree she deserves to have someone who is estastic to marry and have children and I've made my point that I require a sex life in a relationship. We're mussing over the hows or ifs right now. Consouling is pretty bad in that every time we go it feels so negative but we're finally communicating which is great from what we were doing.
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I want to make it clear that i'm reading and absorbing all this advice.
Yes there are things that don't click or resonate correctly for a fully perfect (or at least more functional) relationship. I have not accepted the idea that there is nothing I can do to at least try to make it work to get a a better place/we have potential. It's not just a matter of getting up the nerve to separate-but rather a matter of exhausting options (that are reasonable and timely) before we both come to an understanding about what needs to happen either way. Like yeah breaking up sucks, and it sucks the longer you've been with someone-and it really sucks when they'res nothing inherently wrong/you feel personally is a huge red flag (for whatever reasons).
I know it'd be easier to leave. I get that things are difficult remaining. I do love this girl regardless and it's not fair to either of our feelings to leave without exploring the why/how and what's. We've been together long enough to know we're a fine match personality wise but exploring beyond that is important. Even if it ends it's important because it's helping us both grow in our understandings of what we do/don't need.
Every person reading who has ever had a major break up is sighing and shaking their head.
Yep. The whole "we have to exhaust all of our options in order to be SURE that we aren't walking away prematurely, because although we both know that our relationship is all sorts of messed up, there's a lot of good there that neither of us want to lose" song has been sung a million times before.
It's okay, this is your first time, so it seems totally rational to you. We get it.
However, I maintain what I posted earlier, which you never responded to, that doing what you are doing is possibly the worst thing for HER.
I don't see this ending well for her. You will be fine, and if/when you finally break up, you will have all of the certainty and closure you need in order to feel solid and self assured that you made the right decision.
She on the other hand will have pushed herself far out of her comfort zone while doubling down on banking on your commitment to her to make her feel better about herself, which is a losing strategy no matter what happens.
The more you play along with her unhealthy issues, the worse off she will be, no matter what the outcome.
Understand this clearly: what you are doing right now is almost guaranteed to damage her more. You are voluntarily damaging her more.
It feels like a reasonable, good guy move to give it your all before pulling the plug. It feels like the "right" thing to do, but it isn't. Not even a little bit.
She needs help. She needs her own therapist to help her work on her own issues, that she has very unhealthily attributed to you.
Her desperation to get you to commit is pathological. I've said it multiple times already, she doesn't have rational reasons for wanting to marry you. She's not passionately in love with you and dying to commit herself to you, she's deeply insecure and desperately hoping that you committing to her in terms of marriage will make her feel whole and valuable as a person.
It's nuts.
And you are encouraging it!
You're not a good guy staying with her and fueling this nonsense concept that everything will be fine as long as her sex drive comes back.
Oh my fucking god.
Your relationship problems are SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that you don'tt had sex. So much bigger.
Based on everything you've shared about just how deeply emotionally dysfunctional she is, I actually think it's cruel to keep her on the hook like this. I think it's cruel to let her desperately try to sexually please you when she's obviously really messed up about it and is OBVIOUSLY banking on it getting her a ring/husband/baby/whatever thing she thinks will fix her broken, broken emotional psyche.
Don't do this to her.
If you actually love her, don't do this to her.
It's not kind, it's not caring, it's not love.
If you love her, let her get the help she needs to heal her self esteem. And *that* she needs to do alone.
The only loving move here is to let go before this gets a lot uglier than it needs to be. I know it doesn't feel that way. I know it's hard to internalize what I'm saying.
Here's hoping some of it sinks in, for her sake. She needs help, she doesn't need you.
It sinks in, i'm just trying to think of the best way to tell her how I know making an effort to change on both ends trying to make eachother feel differently is more detrimental to us than breaking up. She's very much of the "all we can do is try" mentality.
The best thing for both of you is to be independently happy as you are. The best thing is to not be reliant on someone else for propping up your self esteem. The best thing after that is to meet someone who you are excited to be with who wants you for you, as you are. As it is you are both torturing yourselves trying to change your fundamental natures in hopes of pleasing someone who doesn’t excite passion. Why are you working so hard? It doesn’t have to be this hard. It isn’t supposed to be this hard.
I don’t mean to imply that good relationships are always sunshine and roses. You are putting in this heroic effort akin to the guy who is trying to save his 30-year marriage for the sake of the kids. Except you aren’t married. And you don’t have kids. And you don’t have 20 years of awesome relationships history to remember that drives you to work to get back the goodness you know is possible. You don’t even know if good is possible because you’ve never really had a chance to be in that state.
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Don't forget the emotional needs of OP. Perhaps once he hits it again after 7 long years of tryin', he'll be over it for good. The conquest will be complete and he can move on to bigger and better things. Now he's in it and can't get out without one last lay.
I'm not. I've posted multiple times in this thread, mostly in support of OP's needs.
However, it's abundantly clear that he is very poor at prioritizing his own needs and many of us have noted repeatedly that he keeps focusing on her, her needs, what she says, what she wants, etc.
He's been remarkably, consistently repetitive in this respect.
He has a lot of guilt and feels a lot of responsibility for her emotional well being, which isn't healthy for either of them.
So since he is so preoccupied with what she wants, I decided to put the focus on her and point out that even if his goal is to make her happy, that breaking up is the best option for her.
Also, contrary to what you propose, I doubt that if she puts in the effort to have sex that he'll suddenly bail. He's held out for 7 years without even bringing it up.
I'm willing to bet that if they do have sex that he will feel deeply and profoundly obligated to her even more so than be already does and that it will feel nearly impossible to leave her without feeling like a terrible, terrible person.
I don't think this has anything to do with conquest, and has everything to do with sense of obligation to her.
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If you are determined to "exhaust all options" you talking to each other is not going to do it (yes I've been there). A therapist whether a couples or individual therapist can help in so many ways. by restating and clarifying you and your girlfriends thoughts and assumptions are. By asking the right questions. And yes even in some cases a "stop the train, let's talk about this!".
You talking to each other is not going to get there.
I went through a bad breakup with my ex husband. We were together for 25 years. I loved him. We have 2 kids. But no matter how bad it got I rationalized why it wasn't so bad and how could I make it work? It wasn't until I went to a therapist and after 2, 3 sessions, she had the hold the train, this is NOT normal talk with me. It was only then that I took it seriously.
You and your girlfriend are not going to have the objectivity that a therapist will. At this point you NEED that.
Beyond that, people use therapists to overcome and deal personal, relationship problems and even past trauma. If the reason she is no longer having sex is what happened early on in your relationship, it won't get better on its own at this point, not without professional help.
I actually wanted to go to couples counseling with my ex, we went once, he didn't want to go and said we could work it out on our own. 4 more dragging on years where nothing changed. Don't make the same mistake I did.
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If you are determined to "exhaust all options" you talking to each other is not going to do it (yes I've been there). A therapist whether a couples or individual therapist can help in so many ways. by restating and clarifying you and your girlfriends thoughts and assumptions are. By asking the right questions. And yes even in some cases a "stop the train, let's talk about this!".
You talking to each other is not going to get there.
I went through a bad breakup with my ex husband. We were together for 25 years. I loved him. We have 2 kids. But no matter how bad it got I rationalized why it wasn't so bad and how could I make it work? It wasn't until I went to a therapist and after 2, 3 sessions, she had the hold the train, this is NOT normal talk with me. It was only then that I took it seriously.
You and your girlfriend are not going to have the objectivity that a therapist will. At this point you NEED that.
Beyond that, people use therapists to overcome and deal personal, relationship problems and even past trauma. If the reason she is no longer having sex is what happened early on in your relationship, it won't get better on its own at this point, not without professional help.
I actually wanted to go to couples counseling with my ex, we went once, he didn't want to go and said we could work it out on our own. 4 more dragging on years where nothing changed. Don't make the same mistake I did.
Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.
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If you are determined to "exhaust all options" you talking to each other is not going to do it (yes I've been there). A therapist whether a couples or individual therapist can help in so many ways. by restating and clarifying you and your girlfriends thoughts and assumptions are. By asking the right questions. And yes even in some cases a "stop the train, let's talk about this!".
You talking to each other is not going to get there.
I went through a bad breakup with my ex husband. We were together for 25 years. I loved him. We have 2 kids. But no matter how bad it got I rationalized why it wasn't so bad and how could I make it work? It wasn't until I went to a therapist and after 2, 3 sessions, she had the hold the train, this is NOT normal talk with me. It was only then that I took it seriously.
You and your girlfriend are not going to have the objectivity that a therapist will. At this point you NEED that.
Beyond that, people use therapists to overcome and deal personal, relationship problems and even past trauma. If the reason she is no longer having sex is what happened early on in your relationship, it won't get better on its own at this point, not without professional help.
I actually wanted to go to couples counseling with my ex, we went once, he didn't want to go and said we could work it out on our own. 4 more dragging on years where nothing changed. Don't make the same mistake I did.
Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.
A million people are going to jump on this last comment: whatever does it mean that your therapist cannot legally give you advice?
Whaaaaaaat?
I am actually a little scared for you now, even though I know you are a healthy adult functioning in the job world pretty well and in your social circle pretty well. Man —you need to stop crowdsourcing advice because you’re not gonna get any more advice than you’ve already gotten on this thread.
Get a decent therapist for yourself. Look inwardly. Develop yourself as an adult, develop introspective ability. Get to know yourself.
Frankly I don’t think you should continue therapy with your SO, I think you should get the hell away from her but you’re gonna do whatever you’re going to do.
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Don't forget the emotional needs of OP. Perhaps once he hits it again after 7 long years of tryin', he'll be over it for good. The conquest will be complete and he can move on to bigger and better things. Now he's in it and can't get out without one last lay.
I'm not. I've posted multiple times in this thread, mostly in support of OP's needs.
However, it's abundantly clear that he is very poor at prioritizing his own needs and many of us have noted repeatedly that he keeps focusing on her, her needs, what she says, what she wants, etc.
He's been remarkably, consistently repetitive in this respect.
He has a lot of guilt and feels a lot of responsibility for her emotional well being, which isn't healthy for either of them.
So since he is so preoccupied with what she wants, I decided to put the focus on her and point out that even if his goal is to make her happy, that breaking up is the best option for her.
Also, contrary to what you propose, I doubt that if she puts in the effort to have sex that he'll suddenly bail. He's held out for 7 years without even bringing it up.
I'm willing to bet that if they do have sex that he will feel deeply and profoundly obligated to her even more so than be already does and that it will feel nearly impossible to leave her without feeling like a terrible, terrible person.
I don't think this has anything to do with conquest, and has everything to do with sense of obligation to her.
I do hah; ironically enough before we were dating I was considered a noncomittmental ass of a young male. I went to the Army directly out of high school and when I came back had literally zero direction aside from parties and make it to drill every month. The catalyst for what most people who know me say was "the best change of my life" was her taking me back after I cheated. Dysfunctional? certainly-but it gave me a purpose, a direction, a need to work to be able to afford things, to go to school because it wasn't just me it was me and someone I cared about.
I have told her engagement should not factor towards her sense of self worth-to which she responded that if someone you love in that way/tells you they don't love you in the same it does hurt her confidence and the like. It's apparent we both find some self-worth and efficacy derived from being together.
This next counseling appointment is going to be a doozy. It's going to focus on my wants and I can tell you not being sure about marriage or kids is almost a guaranteed breakup because to be honest-if I don't know by now and we've been together this long what's the point in continuing? I'm not upset at that I'm just sad as I felt somehow we would be going through life together.
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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.
Wait wut???
What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.
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If you are determined to "exhaust all options" you talking to each other is not going to do it (yes I've been there). A therapist whether a couples or individual therapist can help in so many ways. by restating and clarifying you and your girlfriends thoughts and assumptions are. By asking the right questions. And yes even in some cases a "stop the train, let's talk about this!".
You talking to each other is not going to get there.
I went through a bad breakup with my ex husband. We were together for 25 years. I loved him. We have 2 kids. But no matter how bad it got I rationalized why it wasn't so bad and how could I make it work? It wasn't until I went to a therapist and after 2, 3 sessions, she had the hold the train, this is NOT normal talk with me. It was only then that I took it seriously.
You and your girlfriend are not going to have the objectivity that a therapist will. At this point you NEED that.
Beyond that, people use therapists to overcome and deal personal, relationship problems and even past trauma. If the reason she is no longer having sex is what happened early on in your relationship, it won't get better on its own at this point, not without professional help.
I actually wanted to go to couples counseling with my ex, we went once, he didn't want to go and said we could work it out on our own. 4 more dragging on years where nothing changed. Don't make the same mistake I did.
Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.
A million people are going to jump on this last comment: whatever does it mean that your therapist cannot legally give you advice?
Whaaaaaaat?
Yeah right? Apparently, that's one of the first things they learn at school is not to give direct advice.
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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.
Wait wut???
What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.
Yeah I believe it's considered unethical, risky and can come back to bite them in the ass legally (sorry mean for legal reasons not LEGALLY).
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Yeah right? Apparently, that's one of the first things they learn at school is not to give direct advice.
If by that, they mean that they're trained not to tell you what to do and to help you figure out for yourself how to handle your problems while giving you the tools you need in order to do so, then yes.
However, they absolutely, 100% give advice. It's a MAJOR part of the job.
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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.
Wait wut???
What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.
Yeah I believe it's considered unethical, risky and can come back to bite them in the ass legally (sorry mean for legal reasons not LEGALLY).
Dude.
I think you might need a better counselor.
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Yeah right? Apparently, that's one of the first things they learn at school is not to give direct advice.
If by that, they mean that they're trained not to tell you what to do and to help you figure out for yourself how to handle your problems while giving you the tools you need in order to do so, then yes.
However, they absolutely, 100% give advice. It's a MAJOR part of the job.
Sure I worded that wrong. I'm still waiting on these tools though. I feel like the first 5 sessions we talked about our talks during the week, how we felt about things, and took turns going back and forth. I know it takes time but I'd like at least some sort of tool or exercise or something. I guess I'll schedule a intake at another place local.
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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.
Wait wut???
What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.
Yeah I believe it's considered unethical, risky and can come back to bite them in the ass legally (sorry mean for legal reasons not LEGALLY).
hmm. You might need a different counselor, and individual counseling me thinks.
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My apologies, I misread your post as you were discontinuing using birth control altogether?
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Yep we've been to 5 or 6 consoling sessions. What sort of sucks is legally she can't give us advice or such. So we talk-kind of guided. I was hoping being a therapist and such she WOULD give advice hah.
Wait wut???
What kind of counselor can't legally give advice???
That's what counselors DO. The counsel.
Yeah I believe it's considered unethical, risky and can come back to bite them in the ass legally (sorry mean for legal reasons not LEGALLY).
hmm. You might need a different counselor, and individual counseling me thinks.
yeah ideally that'd be great but at $80-90 a session a week per person/together I only take home like 2900/month. I can budget in the weekly sessions right now but not for 3 sessions/week
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Isn't your friend paying for half the counselling? If not, why not?
I'm not convinced you need a different counsellor. The one you've got seems to be bringing out the truths of the problems between you and your friend: the problem is that your friend is unhappy with those truths coming out and you are sad about the truths themselves. The fact that your counsellor is helping to reveal these unhappinesses doesn't mean that they are not doing the job. And let's face it, you say you want your counsellor to give you advice but you've had plenty of advice on this thread that you have been reluctant to follow: why would advice from a counsellor be any different?
This next counseling appointment is going to be a doozy. It's going to focus on my wants and I can tell you not being sure about marriage or kids is almost a guaranteed breakup because to be honest-if I don't know by now and we've been together this long what's the point in continuing? I'm not upset at that I'm just sad as I felt somehow we would be going through life together.
I'm glad to hear that the next counselling session is focusing on your wants. It's interesting that you appear to acknowledge here that your wants are incompatible with marriage and kids with your friend. And being sad that something is coming to an end is natural, but that sadness is something to work through, not a reason for artificially keeping something going that should properly come to an end.
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A good therapist does not give advice because 20 people with the same problem will solve it in 20 different ways. They help you find your individual solution.
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Couples counselor = priority is the relationship
individual counselor = priority is the well being of the individual client
You are spending money on someone who is there to help you RETAIN your relationship. He or she will give you tools to help continue a relationship. Rare is the couples counselor who is trained/comfortable in giving you tools and a guide to END a relationship.
You are saying you need to decide if you want to remain in this relationship/be married/have kids. That is a job for an independent counselor.
I second the advice to move out. Start over. Reset. It will lower the stakes for both of you so you can make the best way forward.
Also, IMO, if your answer to the "Want kids?" question isn't a full-throated yes, it's a no. Or at least a no for the foreseeable future.
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Couples counselor = priority is the relationship
individual counselor = priority is the well being of the individual client
You are spending money on someone who is there to help you RETAIN your relationship. He or she will give you tools to help continue a relationship. Rare is the couples counselor who is trained/comfortable in giving you tools and a guide to END a relationship.
This.
Also, I might add, they are there to help you keep your relationship, regardless of what they personally think about that.
In my first marriage, we got to the point of going to a couple's counselor. Long story short, the marriage ended. And after we separated, I decided to go back to that counselor one more time by myself, for some closure.
During that session, the counselor told me he thought the marriage was very unhealthy and that it was better for me that I was no longer with my husband anymore. He basically said without saying that my soon-to-be-ex was a dysfunctional spouse and that I was better off single.
Did he ever say any of that, or give any hint of it during the sessions? No. And I understand why. But it's worth remembering the limits of their job.
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Couples counselor = priority is the relationship
individual counselor = priority is the well being of the individual client
You are spending money on someone who is there to help you RETAIN your relationship. He or she will give you tools to help continue a relationship. Rare is the couples counselor who is trained/comfortable in giving you tools and a guide to END a relationship.
You are saying you need to decide if you want to remain in this relationship/be married/have kids. That is a job for an independent counselor.
I second the advice to move out. Start over. Reset. It will lower the stakes for both of you so you can make the best way forward.
Also, IMO, if your answer to the "Want kids?" question isn't a full-throated yes, it's a no. Or at least a no for the foreseeable future.
This is some of the best advice on this thread. Especially the last line.
Move out. IMHO it does not make any sense to live together and not sleep together with the assumption that it will get better some day. That ship has sailed man. Move on.
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Interesting perspective on the types of counselors. I mean tonight may be our last couples session as I'm going to try to air out the actual details a bit more and suggest we see separate ones/similar. I almost wish I could give her a filtered version of this entire thread to read and air out as it's been my feelings and thoughts explained as best as I know how. Reading back it's interesting how I thought the only issue was the lack of sex; but it's more elaborate. Funny how you just ignore things with time.
I'm not planning on moving out (It's my house/I could find a buddy to stay with i'm sure) but I'm just not exactly ready for that right now. I've been reading things and musing on my personal wants and hers and coming up with a better way to speak freely this evening.
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Writing down your thoughts (even cribbing from your posts or those posts of others from this thread) is a totally VALID way to prepare and express yourself accurately in a counseling session. Reading your thoughts that you've written on a piece of papers isn't any less valid than saying them off the top of your head.
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Writing down your thoughts (even cribbing from your posts or those posts of others from this thread) is a totally VALID way to prepare and express yourself accurately in a counseling session. Reading your thoughts that you've written on a piece of papers isn't any less valid than saying them off the top of your head.
It is probably better, we get fuller/truer meaning from things we have thought about. It is like journaling, you are processing what is going on in your head. Off the top of your head is often momentary reaction to a passing thought.
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OK
SO, last night sucked but I feel like we actually made some progress vs talking about how if we had sex etc etc.
I did speak to the consoler about focusing on our individual needs in relationship therapy vs individual and she did explain the differences but made it clear she doesn't want us to deflect back to eachother as needs for our own emotional wants. There was a very specific point where I was saying I've always tried to take care of her at the expense of paying attention to my own needs and she said it makes her feel awful because it looks like i've just given up things i've wanted to do because of her. That's true but in relationships, you make sacrifices so the point wasn't that I feel like i've missed out-but rather I haven't taken the time to realize what I want.
It was more focused on my wants/reasons other than the sex that I feel the way I do. She wants that obvious answer of what I want but because I don't know, I made it clear that I don't know if I want to be married or have kids right now. I don't want to break up with her-BUT I feel like I'm not going to figure out what I want anytime soon if I haven't already. The big point from her was I said we'd be ok alone-I think she asked me if I saw myself with her in the future and I said I'd like to if we could work on our relationship but I would be ok if I was alone. I'm more worried about her being alone as I know i've taken care of her and tried to for so long and yeah It sucks but what sucks worse is dragging out her expectations that I can act like I 100% want kids and be on board and want to be married. I tried to distinguish that if we can't find common ground on fundamental things there really can't be a future.
That aside I'm seeking free individual consoling from my university. What bothers me is she really just wants to know what I want which I'm not sure. I've always talked about the business ventures I'd like to do, the places I'd like to travel, the more i'd like to compete at the gym-but these have kind of been wishes more than concrete things. I've always felt like I want to establish a financial future and such but aside from that I do a lot of whatever. I also want to be with her, which is the hardest part because I understand without those definite YES on kid/marraige-it's not going to be right for her or me in the long run. She did know she wants kids and she always saw them as with me so it was hard for her to here those aren't my goals right now. Being asked what I want is just nearly impossible to answer because I never pursue the things I want. For instance-i'll go to the gym a few nights a week but no way could I commit to the 2x a day schedule and still have time for a relationship/work and such required to compete/travel. And it's not her fault I mean it's just compounded by home ownership, dogs, etc etc.
A commitment was always something I shied away from. Not commitment in the relationship-but even talking about marriage/ the future. Shoot-I wouldn't even say I loved her until the second year in as it was this weird internalized commitment factor for me. When we took a break about 3 years back I had been taking her for granted/putzing around all day/she wanted to go off to school and be a speech pathologist and saw absolutely no commitment from me. It took that break up to realize I wanted to be with her. I've been mulling it over in my head and I've thought way more about it this time and believe in at least that aspect I am better prepared to handle a potential breakup this time because it's not "out of the blue" and we have concrete reasons/needs on both sides.
Anyways just a little heads up. We are still together but I know she's hurt now that she knows I don't feel the same. I feel it at least derailed her idea that I was just in a phase and would change my mind overnight at least (if that's how she was feeling)
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But it isn’t about making this work or being alone. You are still really young. You can break up, rediscover who you are, grow, and meet someone else who you are more compatible with.
This is just so unhealthy. She is trying to demand commitment and kids from you. And your trying to keep her on the shelf until you figure out what you really want.
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It sounds like your GF wants to be sure whether you want children and want to stay with her. I can imagine she wouldn't be looking forward to getting a child with someone who doesn't want them and who disappears from her life quickly after. That would leave her alone with the kid. Maybe she wants to ensure that won't happen.
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It sounds like your GF wants to be sure whether you want children and want to stay with her. I can imagine she wouldn't be looking forward to getting a child with someone who doesn't want them and who disappears from her life quickly after. That would leave her alone with the kid. Maybe she wants to ensure that won't happen.
Yeah of course, she wants to ensure she has a future in line with her goals, which I understand. I just don't currently see the point/benefit of getting married. It could be the social pressure/stipulations on females are much higher from friends, family, society/her own personal beliefs and goals have always pointed to it, which makes it a logical step. I'm not against the idea of marriage; just not at this point in my life/relationship.
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Based on what you just said, you need to cut her free and let her go find that with someone else. If you know that you don't want those things now, or possibly ever, it is unfair of you to stay with her, keeping her hoping that one day you will change your mind. She deserves to have the things she wants in a relationship, just like you do. It's super obvious from your last couple of posts that it makes no sense for you to stay together, but neither of you is ready to rip the bandaid off and just deal with what will be a painful breakup...but in the end will make you both SO much happier.
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But it isn’t about making this work or being alone. You are still really young. You can break up, rediscover who you are, grow, and meet someone else who you are more compatible with.
This is just so unhealthy. She is trying to demand commitment and kids from you. And your trying to keep her on the shelf until you figure out what you really want.
Sure and I've told her that. I've said my want to be together is selfish and unrealistic if our fundamental goals do not line up. I don't want to break up but she will be able to actually find someone who matches these goals if we do, which is not the tar pit of trying to change each other we are stuck in. She's not demanding anymore-really just asking what I do want so she will know whether or not it includes her as stated prior.
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Based on what you just said, you need to cut her free and let her go find that with someone else. If you know that you don't want those things now, or possibly ever, it is unfair of you to stay with her, keeping her hoping that one day you will change your mind. She deserves to have the things she wants in a relationship, just like you do. It's super obvious from your last couple of posts that it makes no sense for you to stay together, but neither of you is ready to rip the bandaid off and just deal with what will be a painful breakup...but in the end will make you both SO much happier.
That very well may be true and how it ends. It is hard. It is emotional. It does seem sudden as we did JUST start all this a month ago after no real conflict for years (well at least on the surface).
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Based on what you just said, you need to cut her free and let her go find that with someone else. If you know that you don't want those things now, or possibly ever, it is unfair of you to stay with her, keeping her hoping that one day you will change your mind. She deserves to have the things she wants in a relationship, just like you do. It's super obvious from your last couple of posts that it makes no sense for you to stay together, but neither of you is ready to rip the bandaid off and just deal with what will be a painful breakup...but in the end will make you both SO much happier.
That very well may be true and how it ends. It is hard. It is emotional. It does seem sudden as we did JUST start all this a month ago after no real conflict for years (well at least on the surface).
I think the suddenness is really good, though...don't spend any more of your life trying to decide if you want to be with someone. If it was right, you would know and you would not be asking a Internet forum full of strangers for advice. But, to empathize, I know it is probably a shock that all of a sudden here you are having to make this decision. It sucks, I know. It will be really really hard, but then it will get better. It's amazing how fast it will get better, and suddenly you will realize that it was a decision you could have made even earlier on.
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There are many things about this thread that drive me nuts, but this one can be fixed quite easily.
I did speak to the consoler about focusing on our individual needs in relationship therapy vs individual
That aside I'm seeking free individual consoling from my university.
coun·sel·ing [ˈkouns(ə)liNG] NOUN
the provision of assistance and guidance in resolving personal, social, or psychological problems and difficulties, especially by a professional.
consoling [kənˈsōliNG] ADJECTIVE
serving to comfort someone at a time of grief or disappointment.
Unless it's a Freudian slip? In which case that should tell you something.
On a separate note, exactly how much of her bills do you pay for her? You pay for the therapy and the house is yours. Does she contribute a fair share towards rent, utilities, groceries, etc? If not, part of her may also be afraid at how her life might change if you break up.
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I've been reading and lurking so far on this thread. OP I am in my 40s and if I went through something very similar in my 20s -- a long term relationship with someone with whom I was good friends but incompatible for many reasons. We too were severely codependent since we had only known what we had with each other, and it seemed pretty good overall, and we were scared of what might happen if we broke up. We stayed together for way too long and the breakup was hard, but now 20 years later I'm married to someone who I AM 100% excited to be spending my life with. We never had that sort of struggle. When we met, we had similar goals, there was a huge spark, and now we're best friends and I'm still excited to see him every day. I have learned that if there's a struggle to be together, then the relationship isn't meant to be. Thank god I am not with that person from my 20s -- looking back now, we were extremely bad for one another. It would have made my life miserable to have given in to the fear of that breakup, stuck in complacency of it just being OK, because I was used to it, comfortable with a constant struggle that went along with what I thought was love at the time.
Just do it. You are sexually incompatible and you both want different things. Why drag this painful breakup out any longer? Do HER a favour and end the relationship. You will be looking back at this one day wondering why it took you so long. She will be thankful that she has time to start a family. Why wait?
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I know it'd be easier to leave.
No. It's easier to stay. Hence, 7 years of a sexless roommate relationship.
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There are many things about this thread that drive me nuts, but this one can be fixed quite easily.
I did speak to the consoler about focusing on our individual needs in relationship therapy vs individual
That aside I'm seeking free individual consoling from my university.
coun·sel·ing [ˈkouns(ə)liNG] NOUN
the provision of assistance and guidance in resolving personal, social, or psychological problems and difficulties, especially by a professional.
consoling [kənˈsōliNG] ADJECTIVE
serving to comfort someone at a time of grief or disappointment.
Unless it's a Freudian slip? In which case that should tell you something.
On a separate note, exactly how much of her bills do you pay for her? You pay for the therapy and the house is yours. Does she contribute a fair share towards rent, utilities, groceries, etc? If not, part of her may also be afraid at how her life might change if you break up.
I KNOW-I just installed Grammarly. It's been driving me nutty as it depends on which browser I'm using that autocorrects.
I bought the house 3.5 years ago. We had lived together at her dads for a while and at some point, we just wanted to be out. I made considerably more and purchased it. She does pay for groceries, commodities around the house, her car/phone, pretty much all furniture and trash but I have never charged her rent or such. I prefer to keep finances separate anyways as it's easier for me to track and organize. She would more than likely move back with her parents on one side or the other which would suck-but she has no issue with either of them and they would take her in a second. She is looking to get a better full time job once her nanny position expires this fall and has a few teaching positions lined up that look great. I'm sure to some degree the home we've shared is a factor (how couldn't it be), but she's never been the financially motivated type-much more emotionally motivated.
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I know it'd be easier to leave.
No. It's easier to stay. Hence, 7 years of a sexless roommate relationship.
You're right. On paper it looks like the easier thing to leave as you don't have to try. Emotionally it's easier to stay and ignore the issue.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
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I've been reading and lurking so far on this thread. OP I am in my 40s and if I went through something very similar in my 20s -- a long term relationship with someone with whom I was good friends but incompatible for many reasons. We too were severely codependent since we had only known what we had with each other, and it seemed pretty good overall, and we were scared of what might happen if we broke up. We stayed together for way too long and the breakup was hard, but now 20 years later I'm married to someone who I AM 100% excited to be spending my life with. We never had that sort of struggle. When we met, we had similar goals, there was a huge spark, and now we're best friends and I'm still excited to see him every day. I have learned that if there's a struggle to be together, then the relationship isn't meant to be. Thank god I am not with that person from my 20s -- looking back now, we were extremely bad for one another. It would have made my life miserable to have given in to the fear of that breakup, stuck in complacency of it just being OK, because I was used to it, comfortable with a constant struggle that went along with what I thought was love at the time.
Just do it. You are sexually incompatible and you both want different things. Why drag this painful breakup out any longer? Do HER a favour and end the relationship. You will be looking back at this one day wondering why it took you so long. She will be thankful that she has time to start a family. Why wait?
Why wait-that's a good question. I think it's a myriad of reasons but what it boils down to is letting her know what she wants to know before I do anything. Like i've told her weeks ago I want to work on this but through discovery, talking, consoling we've come to see there are deeper underlying differences than just the sex and i've been finding out a lot about myself and her through it. Part of it is time, it's not easy when you've been with this person almost daily for so long. Part of it is fear of the what if (she's been asking what I want-like do I want to be alone and will that make ME happy which from last time sucked so back we came back together a week later)-so i'm trying to make sure I squelch any doubt at all personally before I initiate actions I can't reverse.
So mind if I ask you what wasn't working in your relationship?
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitly not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
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Yeah; I don't expect a GOGOGO mentality from anyone forever really in that aspect(it's neigh impossible especially with time/life/age and changes); but having some sort of libido is a must vs none. I've been reading on asexuality/demi sexuality and relationships between them and standard libido partners a lot and it's been kind of nutty. I personally can't be in a relationship unless someone has a libido/a lot of people in those previously listed situations go outside the relationship on one side or the other but I wouldn't do that knowingly or unknowingly-if i'm with someone I'm with them.
Except you are and you have been for 6 years. Time to stop wasting more years away perhaps?
As for going outside the relationship, it can be pretty damn good when it's by mutual agreement and there isn't cheating involved.
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You love your friend, but I'm getting no sense that either of you is "in love" with the other.
Look, the English language is bad about having words for love - all our English repression, I guess. It only really has the one. Greek does it much better: they have about 6 different words for "love". "Eros" is the one everyone knows or can guess: it's the erotic love that you feel towards your life partner. The other words relevant to you might be "philos" which is friendship love or "agape" (pronounced with three syllables "a - ga - pay" with a small emphasis on the last of these) which is brotherly/religious love.
It's the complete lack of "eros" love that either of you feels for the other which I think has everyone in this thread screaming at you that however friendly/brotherly the love between the two of you, there is not the kind of love between you that makes a marriage. You might find some comfort in the fact that it is both of you who feel this way: it's much harder to manage if one feels that erotic love and the other doesn't.
Yes, some people do get married without feeling that erotic love. They do it for good or bad reasons, and sometimes in the hope that the erotic love will come - and sometimes it does. But for the two of you if it hasn't come after 7 years, realistically it's not going to. And there are no outside reasons for the two of you to marry other than that you feel that erotic love towards each other and expect that love to last a lifetime of mutual fidelity. Please, set each of you free to find that love.
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Yeah; I don't expect a GOGOGO mentality from anyone forever really in that aspect(it's neigh impossible especially with time/life/age and changes); but having some sort of libido is a must vs none. I've been reading on asexuality/demi sexuality and relationships between them and standard libido partners a lot and it's been kind of nutty. I personally can't be in a relationship unless someone has a libido/a lot of people in those previously listed situations go outside the relationship on one side or the other but I wouldn't do that knowingly or unknowingly-if i'm with someone I'm with them.
Except you are and you have been for 6 years. Time to stop wasting more years away perhaps?
As for going outside the relationship, it can be pretty damn good when it's by mutual agreement and there isn't cheating involved.
At one point we spoke about it but it wasn't really an option we viewed as serious. I could always revisit it but I don't know if i'd feel morally sound/she wouldn't feel right either. I'm sure it works for some people ok but i think even agreement may sway one way or the other even unintentionally.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitly not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
I don't know...when I was your age, I was in a career that I knew wasn't my "forever gig" (if there is such a thing). I knew some things I liked to do, but I hadn't done a lot of exploring for new career possibilities. Then I ran into an acquaintance from my high school days when I was "home" for Christmas one year. He told me what he was doing professionally, and the light bulb went on for me - "THAT'S what I want to do!!!" I started working on a master's degree a few months after that, and 20 years later, I'm still doing that work. And I absolutely love it! (I don't care much for my day job right now because I'm not doing enough of the work I love, but I do the work I love as a consulting gig on the side.)
On a more personal note, when I was your age, I was also in a bad marriage that I knew in my heart of hearts I should not have gone into. But we had been together for a while, we were living together, people expected us to get married, and we had a wedding planned. I felt like I "couldn't get out of it" (the wedding), and I figured I would make the best of it. Well, the rest of your life is a long, long time. I ended up calling it quits on that marriage (no kids, thankfully), and today I am very happily married to husband #2. I got it right the second time, but by then, I no longer trusted myself to make the right decision about a marriage, so I saw a counselor to help me think it through. Divorce sucks in so many ways.
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You love your friend, but I'm getting no sense that either of you is "in love" with the other.
Look, the English language is bad about having words for love - all our English repression, I guess. It only really has the one. Greek does it much better: they have about 6 different words for "love". "Eros" is the one everyone knows or can guess: it's the erotic love that you feel towards your life partner. The other words relevant to you might be "philos" which is friendship love or "agape" which is brotherly/religious love.
It's the complete lack of "eros" love that either of you feels for the other which I think has everyone in this thread screaming at you that however friendly/brotherly the love between the two of you, there is not the kind of love between you that makes a marriage. You might find some comfort in the fact that it is both of you who feel this way: it's much harder to manage if one feels that erotic love and the other doesn't.
Yes, some people do get married without feeling that erotic love. They do it for good or bad reasons, and sometimes in the hope that the erotic love will come - and sometimes it does. But for the two of you if it hasn't come after 7 years, realistically it's not going to. And there are no outside reasons for the two of you to marry other than that you feel that erotic love towards each other and expect that love to last a lifetime of mutual fidelity. Please, set each of you free to find that love.
The closest i've found to that is the 5 love languages group. Interesting though. I'm of the belief that people love to different degrees/amounts and types. In her case no "Eros" is fine from her standards in finding a life partner and living a content life. In my case it is not for the long term. It's perfectly fine for her to not require that but it is not for me.
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Part of it is time, it's not easy when you've been with this person almost daily for so long. Part of it is fear of the what if (she's been asking what I want-like do I want to be alone and will that make ME happy which from last time sucked so back we came back together a week later)-so i'm trying to make sure I squelch any doubt at all personally before I initiate actions I can't reverse.
A week alone?? That is nothing. OF course you will miss each other if you separate for a week. Your routine is broken, the silence in the house is deafening, there will be a huge void in your life. Have you heard the adage that it takes 30 days to change a habit? In some ways your relationship has become a habit. You've gotten used to the little rituals between you -- picking up ice cream, cuddling on the couch, talking about your days together, etc. And there will be a sense of grief and loss that goes with a breakup. Thus far you've both been envisioning a future together, a continuation of what you have now. So there's a sense of loss there when you have to let go of your vision of life together. All of this is undoubtedly painful.
But - it's also temporary. The pain of a breakup is intense but trust me, it is MUCH less painful to go through a short term loss than it is to go through a lifetime with someone who is not a good fit for you. It's not healthy to be going through the struggle you're going through right now. This is NOT a healthy relationship because fundamental aspects of it are mismatched. Come on, she wants marriage and kids right now, and she isn't interested in sex. You want sex, and aren't interested in kids or marriage. Wanting / needing sex isn't something you can control. As others have said, unless you're willing to sign up for a lifetime (if that's what marriage means to her) of sexless marriage, then you are being totally unfair to her by stringing her along like this. There is nothing to gain by waiting it out.
As others have also said, codependency really clogs up your vision. There is no way for you to wait out this birth control thing and have a clear view on what's happening. From what you've said here you are both afraid of being alone, so it seems like you will always be reaching for an excuse to make these issues a future problem to solve. It seems like BC is one of these convenient excuses.
If you do break up now, she goes off BC, you regain your sense of selves by being alone for a significant amount of time, even start dating other people eventually, you will discover whether or not you are right for one another (i.e. that her libido comes back, and you want marriage and kids.) There is no way to make these decisions clearly when you are bogged down in the mire of codependency.
So mind if I ask you what wasn't working in your relationship?
We were extremely codependent for one -- I have just learned from that time that codependent relationships are really unhealthy. We were both manipulative. We argued a lot (alongside a lot of really great times, too). It was intense and we thought that meant we were in love. I thought I couldn't live without him. We were both incredibly insecure. That sort of insecurity damages a relationship. I had to mature and be alone for a while in order to be in a healthy relationship, or even know what that was.
Basically I learned (just through figuring out what NOT to do) that while love takes some effort and communication, it shouldn't be a struggle. I have never had a second of doubt that my husband was the right one for me. We just never struggled with the sort of questions you're struggling with (should we get married? should we be together?) We just knew, from the start, and still know. We don't manipulate each other to get what we want. We aren't codependent - we are two separate individuals whose lives work well together. We are on the same page 90% of the time. When we're not, we have a lot of discussions, and we listen to each other. That sort of thing.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitly not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
I'm going to let you in on a secret. You will have these moments of "what do I want in life" many times over the course of your life. And what you want will change over time. What I wanted at 16 was very different from what I wanted at 26 and now what I want at 36. And what I will want at 46. We constantly redefine and grow into ourselves. Don't be afraid to ask yourself what you want out of life and consider what course changes you need to get there.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitly not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
I don't know...when I was your age, I was in a career that I knew wasn't my "forever gig" (if there is such a thing). I knew some things I liked to do, but I hadn't done a lot of exploring for new career possibilities. Then I ran into an acquaintance from my high school days when I was "home" for Christmas one year. He told me what he was doing professionally, and the light bulb went on for me - "THAT'S what I want to do!!!" I started working on a master's degree a few months after that, and 20 years later, I'm still doing that work. And I absolutely love it! (I don't care much for my day job right now because I'm not doing enough of the work I love, but I do the work I love as a consulting gig on the side.)
On a more personal note, when I was your age, I was also in a bad marriage that I knew in my heart of hearts I should not have gone into. But we had been together for a while, we were living together, people expected us to get married, and we had a wedding planned. I felt like I "couldn't get out of it" (the wedding), and I figured I would make the best of it. Well, the rest of your life is a long, long time. I ended up calling it quits on that marriage (no kids, thankfully), and today I am very happily married to husband #2. I got it right the second time, but by then, I no longer trusted myself to make the right decision about a marriage, so I saw a counselor to help me think it through. Divorce sucks in so many ways.
Yeah, me, too. At 26-27, I was just getting out of an extremely unhealthy, abusive relationship and in the middle of an existential crisis about my future career plans in academia. I was in a really tough, bad place. I think it's very easy when you're in your late twenties to start feeling like you're supposed to have figured everything out and settled into your "life" as in some sort of finished product. This is especially true if you have friends and family around you of that age who have already gotten married and are starting families.
But as older people can tell you, in your late twenties you are still very young, and likely still figuring a lot of things out. I say all the time that if I had married any of the people I dated in my twenties, I would have ended up either divorced or miserable. One of the really great things about life -- and something that is hard to see at 27 -- is that you have many, many years to grow and change. When you're in your twenties, it can feel like you've "wasted" time if you've spent a few years in a relationship that ends up not working out. But the fact is, the only wasted time is the time you spend staying in it once you realize it's not the relationship for you.
Looking back on my life, there are a few relationships I held on to past their expiration date, because I felt like I had "invested" time in the relationship. But in fact, I was just afraid of change. Someone up-thread said that the EASY thing to do is stay, and the HARD thing to do is leave, and that's true. And taking the easy path right now will lead to a lot more difficulty and sadness and regret later.
Because the fact is, it's pretty likely you're going to have to leave this relationship eventually. You can do it now -- and give yourself the gift of time, healing, and looking forward to the future -- of you can do it years from now, after trying desperately to make this square peg of a relationship fit in the round hole your friend wants it to be.
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If you could go back in time (knowing what you know now), would you start a relationship with her?
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If you could go back in time (knowing what you know now), would you start a relationship with her?
If I could go back in time my dumbass wouldn't have cheated on her. I have no idea if we'd have been together or not but we could have not defined an important part in such a negative way.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitly not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
I'm going to let you in on a secret. You will have these moments of "what do I want in life" many times over the course of your life. And what you want will change over time. What I wanted at 16 was very different from what I wanted at 26 and now what I want at 36. And what I will want at 46. We constantly redefine and grow into ourselves. Don't be afraid to ask yourself what you want out of life and consider what course changes you need to get there.
So applying that to relationships-how should you ever expect to find a life partner if people change what they want? Is it the willingness to accept change or just the magnitude of the actual change by either partner (aka is it luck or do people make it work?)
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OK,
Sounds like you had a very productive couples counseling session. You say that you've made compromises and that happens in all relationships. I would push back on that statement. You can't legitimately make sacrifices/compromises unless you are making an ACTIVE choice. If you don't know what you want, how can you actively choose something else? You can't.
Do you think it's more accurate to say that you haven't been making sacrifices/compromises as much as just going with the flow? Accepting what comes? Taking the path of least resistance/least emotional pain? If that's the case, of course you two haven't fought much. Can you see how not fighting isn't necessarily a sign of a good relationship? It could be the sign that at least one person is just going along to get along.
Yay for you for seeking out an individual counselor! Discover who you really are, what your hopes and dreams are, and figure out what you need to change to accomplish that. For example, if you really want to build your body into a competition-worthy endeavor, what would it take to do it? If you want to travel--where? What needs to change to make that happen? Money? Time?
Doing this takes courage and inner strength to make ACTIVE choices. Do I hang out at home and watch Netflix (which I love) or lift heavy things for another hour? Do I run through the drive through because I'm starving or eat the leftovers in the fridge to save money for my travel fund?
I dare say, you may need to be the one to make the strong, courageous, ACTIVE choice eventually when it comes to this relationship. I suspect you're closer to breaking up than you admit. It is a noble and courageous thing to end a relationship knowing it will cause emotional pain but will be best for both in the long run. Doing the right thing isn't rewarded with a lack of emotional pain or comfort -- otherwise it wouldn't be courageous.
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So applying that to relationships-how should you ever expect to find a life partner if people change what they want? Is it the willingness to accept change or just the magnitude of the actual change by either partner (aka is it luck or do people make it work?)
You find a life partner who will grow with you and/or support you in your growth and change journey. There are people on this forum who have supported partners through career changes, sexual orientation changes and even gender transitions. Sometimes the relationship survives and sometimes it doesn't. The common thread is a good partner wants what's best for the other person, even if that means letting them go.
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OK,
Sounds like you had a very productive couples counseling session. You say that you've made compromises and that happens in all relationships. I would push back on that statement. You can't legitimately make sacrifices/compromises unless you are making an ACTIVE choice. If you don't know what you want, how can you actively choose something else? You can't.
Do you think it's more accurate to say that you haven't been making sacrifices/compromises as much as just going with the flow? Accepting what comes? Taking the path of least resistance/least emotional pain? If that's the case, of course you two haven't fought much. Can you see how not fighting isn't necessarily a sign of a good relationship? It could be the sign that at least one person is just going along to get along.
Yay for you for seeking out an individual counselor! Discover who you really are, what your hopes and dreams are, and figure out what you need to change to accomplish that. For example, if you really want to build your body into a competition-worthy endeavor, what would it take to do it? If you want to travel--where? What needs to change to make that happen? Money? Time?
Doing this takes courage and inner strength to make ACTIVE choices. Do I hang out at home and watch Netflix (which I love) or lift heavy things for another hour? Do I run through the drive through because I'm starving or eat the leftovers in the fridge to save money for my travel fund?
I dare say, you may need to be the one to make the strong, courageous, ACTIVE choice eventually when it comes to this relationship. I suspect you're closer to breaking up than you admit. It is a noble and courageous thing to end a relationship knowing it will cause emotional pain but will be best for both in the long run. Doing the right thing isn't rewarded with a lack of emotional pain or comfort -- otherwise it wouldn't be courageous.
That's a good point. I'm not actively sacrificing wants and such and hating myself for it, but I have become comfortable and routine set. There's nothing wrong with that but I didn't mean to make her feel like she's the one stopping me directly from doing things I want to do-only i'm doing that.
She texted me saying she's been crying all day and doesn't feel like going to work so i'm going to give her a call on lunch and just have a sit down scheduled for tonight. I really liked what those greek terms for love stated in terms of categorizing these things. I'd love for her to read this forum but there isn't much of a filter on much of it.
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So applying that to relationships-how should you ever expect to find a life partner if people change what they want? Is it the willingness to accept change or just the magnitude of the actual change by either partner (aka is it luck or do people make it work?)
You find a life partner who will grow with you and/or support you in your growth and change journey. There are people on this forum who have supported partners through career changes, sexual orientation changes and even gender transitions. Sometimes the relationship survives and sometimes it doesn't. The common thread is a good partner wants what's best for the other person, even if that means letting them go.
Hm. I mean I haven't ever felt like I don't want her in my life. Just not in terms of marriage-but that's not just her. That's anyone.
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Why wait-that's a good question. I think it's a myriad of reasons but what it boils down to is letting her know what she wants to know before I do anything. Like i've told her weeks ago I want to work on this but through discovery, talking, consoling we've come to see there are deeper underlying differences than just the sex and i've been finding out a lot about myself and her through it. Part of it is time, it's not easy when you've been with this person almost daily for so long. Part of it is fear of the what if (she's been asking what I want-like do I want to be alone and will that make ME happy which from last time sucked so back we came back together a week later)-so i'm trying to make sure I squelch any doubt at all personally before I initiate actions I can't reverse.
Are you waiting in hopes that she'll be the one to pull the trigger and end the relationship? That way:
- She gets to make a choice rather than have you make it
- It can be after she's gotten the information she needs/closure she needs
- You don't have to worry about backsliding and wanting to get back together after just a week
It seems that may be what you are doing subconsciously to me. I suggest you reconsider that approach, but if you continue in it, at least own it and tell her that you're not going to break up, she'll need to do that (if she wants to get married to someone (else)).
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Why wait-that's a good question. I think it's a myriad of reasons but what it boils down to is letting her know what she wants to know before I do anything. Like i've told her weeks ago I want to work on this but through discovery, talking, consoling we've come to see there are deeper underlying differences than just the sex and i've been finding out a lot about myself and her through it. Part of it is time, it's not easy when you've been with this person almost daily for so long. Part of it is fear of the what if (she's been asking what I want-like do I want to be alone and will that make ME happy which from last time sucked so back we came back together a week later)-so i'm trying to make sure I squelch any doubt at all personally before I initiate actions I can't reverse.
Are you waiting in hopes that she'll be the one to pull the trigger and end the relationship? That way:
- She gets to make a choice rather than have you make it
- It can be after she's gotten the information she needs/closure she needs
- You don't have to worry about backsliding and wanting to get back together after just a week
It seems that may be what you are doing subconsciously to me. I suggest you reconsider that approach, but if you continue in it, at least own it and tell her that you're not going to break up, she'll need to do that (if she wants to get married to someone (else)).
That just described the most passive aggressive approach to breaking up. Make the other person's life miserable until it's the only option. Torture her by not wanting to marry her while she tortures you by not wanting sex. Wait to see who gives in first. Man.
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Why wait-that's a good question. I think it's a myriad of reasons but what it boils down to is letting her know what she wants to know before I do anything. Like i've told her weeks ago I want to work on this but through discovery, talking, consoling we've come to see there are deeper underlying differences than just the sex and i've been finding out a lot about myself and her through it. Part of it is time, it's not easy when you've been with this person almost daily for so long. Part of it is fear of the what if (she's been asking what I want-like do I want to be alone and will that make ME happy which from last time sucked so back we came back together a week later)-so i'm trying to make sure I squelch any doubt at all personally before I initiate actions I can't reverse.
Are you waiting in hopes that she'll be the one to pull the trigger and end the relationship? That way:
- She gets to make a choice rather than have you make it
- It can be after she's gotten the information she needs/closure she needs
- You don't have to worry about backsliding and wanting to get back together after just a week
It seems that may be what you are doing subconsciously to me. I suggest you reconsider that approach, but if you continue in it, at least own it and tell her that you're not going to break up, she'll need to do that (if she wants to get married to someone (else)).
That just described the most passive aggressive approach to breaking up. Make the other person's life miserable until it's the only option. Torture her by not wanting to marry her while she tortures you by not wanting sex. Wait to see who gives in first. Man.
Well, yes, that is kind of my point and why I suggest he reconsiders it.
But at the very least if he's not going to do that, to at least be honest with her - and himself - that's what he's doing.
I certainly am not advocating for it...
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So applying that to relationships-how should you ever expect to find a life partner if people change what they want? Is it the willingness to accept change or just the magnitude of the actual change by either partner (aka is it luck or do people make it work?)
You find a life partner who will grow with you and/or support you in your growth and change journey. There are people on this forum who have supported partners through career changes, sexual orientation changes and even gender transitions. Sometimes the relationship survives and sometimes it doesn't. The common thread is a good partner wants what's best for the other person, even if that means letting them go.
Hm. I mean I haven't ever felt like I don't want her in my life. Just not in terms of marriage-but that's not just her. That's anyone.
Exactly. The two of you are in completely different places in life.
I used to call them fatal flaws when dating. When there was something, regardless of how wonderful everything else was, that would sink our long-term viability. Typically it was something that neither person could or should change. It doesn't mean that the relationship wasn't good, it just meant that we weren't going to be able to be good for each other long-term. We wouldn't be able to grow and change together. It was hard to walk away when the relationship was 95% good, but it wasn't fair to hold each other back.
The two of you have some serious fatal flaws. The differing physical intimacy needs. The completely different needs/potential timelines for marriage. The desire for kids.
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There's also a sort of unstated rule that men ought to want to get married and ought to want kids and if they don't then that's a problem that can be "worked on". So it puts men in a defensive position where they are somehow made to feel something is wrong with them and that they need to fix it.
Of course that's all utter BS. Not wanting kids or wanting to get married is perfectly valid and needs no justification at all. If it's how you feel, it's how you feel. No apology or justification needed.
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There's also a sort of unstated rule that men ought to want to get married and ought to want kids and if they don't then that's a problem that can be "worked on". So it puts men in a defensive position where they are somehow made to feel something is wrong with them and that they need to fix it.
Of course that's all utter BS. Not wanting kids or wanting to get married is perfectly valid and needs no justification at all. If it's how you feel, it's how you feel. No apology or justification needed.
Sure, It's my right to feel however. The reason I've been trying to see if I want them is because: 1) Probably should actually know at some point or no regardless of where i'm at and 2) I see how much it means to her. Not being on board with them means we can't end up together because she wants kids to be happy.
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So applying that to relationships-how should you ever expect to find a life partner if people change what they want? Is it the willingness to accept change or just the magnitude of the actual change by either partner (aka is it luck or do people make it work?)
You find a life partner who will grow with you and/or support you in your growth and change journey. There are people on this forum who have supported partners through career changes, sexual orientation changes and even gender transitions. Sometimes the relationship survives and sometimes it doesn't. The common thread is a good partner wants what's best for the other person, even if that means letting them go.
Hm. I mean I haven't ever felt like I don't want her in my life. Just not in terms of marriage-but that's not just her. That's anyone.
Exactly. The two of you are in completely different places in life.
I used to call them fatal flaws when dating. When there was something, regardless of how wonderful everything else was, that would sink our long-term viability. Typically it was something that neither person could or should change. It doesn't mean that the relationship wasn't good, it just meant that we weren't going to be able to be good for each other long-term. We wouldn't be able to grow and change together. It was hard to walk away when the relationship was 95% good, but it wasn't fair to hold each other back.
The two of you have some serious fatal flaws. The differing physical intimacy needs. The completely different needs/potential timelines for marriage. The desire for kids.
I don't think either of us considered breaking up as an option. Walking away in both our minds is considered quitting (don't you want to try/relationships are work etc) and ours has definitely had its share of workthrough. We both just figured we were going through life together and things would change if enough time passed.
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So applying that to relationships-how should you ever expect to find a life partner if people change what they want? Is it the willingness to accept change or just the magnitude of the actual change by either partner (aka is it luck or do people make it work?)
You find a life partner who will grow with you and/or support you in your growth and change journey. There are people on this forum who have supported partners through career changes, sexual orientation changes and even gender transitions. Sometimes the relationship survives and sometimes it doesn't. The common thread is a good partner wants what's best for the other person, even if that means letting them go.
Hm. I mean I haven't ever felt like I don't want her in my life. Just not in terms of marriage-but that's not just her. That's anyone.
Exactly. The two of you are in completely different places in life.
I used to call them fatal flaws when dating. When there was something, regardless of how wonderful everything else was, that would sink our long-term viability. Typically it was something that neither person could or should change. It doesn't mean that the relationship wasn't good, it just meant that we weren't going to be able to be good for each other long-term. We wouldn't be able to grow and change together. It was hard to walk away when the relationship was 95% good, but it wasn't fair to hold each other back.
The two of you have some serious fatal flaws. The differing physical intimacy needs. The completely different needs/potential timelines for marriage. The desire for kids.
I don't think either of us considered breaking up as an option. Walking away in both our minds is considered quitting (don't you want to try/relationships are work etc) and ours has definitely had its share of workthrough. We both just figured we were going through life together and things would change if enough time passed.
I don't think relationships in your twenties should be work. If you agree on the fundamentals in life and you decided to make a commitment together then as you grow older things will come up that you have to work through. But then you have the total commitment to each other and the memories of when everything was easy and fun to help you get through the tough spots.
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Do you guys have any couple friends in happy relationships? Are your parents happily married? If not, was the divorce traumatic for either of you? The way you talk about your relationship makes me think you might not have positive examples of good relationships to look to. Also the fact that your friend is reluctant to discuss the relationship even with close friends or family is a bit strange, even for a rather private person. Relationships aren't supposed to be so hard, and leaving one that isn't working isn't quitting. Its a mature move that shows introspection and contemplation and a tough decision made. Media skews people's views of relationships terribly, but talking with real people you know and respect might bring some perspective to the situation.
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So applying that to relationships-how should you ever expect to find a life partner if people change what they want? Is it the willingness to accept change or just the magnitude of the actual change by either partner (aka is it luck or do people make it work?)
You find a life partner who will grow with you and/or support you in your growth and change journey. There are people on this forum who have supported partners through career changes, sexual orientation changes and even gender transitions. Sometimes the relationship survives and sometimes it doesn't. The common thread is a good partner wants what's best for the other person, even if that means letting them go.
Hm. I mean I haven't ever felt like I don't want her in my life. Just not in terms of marriage-but that's not just her. That's anyone.
You want her in your life in a way that is selfish (for your own comfort and benefit). It will always make her unsatisfied and unhappy. Please do not tell her that you want her in your life before telling her all the reasons she's unlikely to be in your life. It just provides false hope and confusion... She either can't see or can't admit that she sees what is going on. You are giving her an ultimatum (sex, no marriage) and she is giving you a different ultimatum (marriage, then maybe sex). Generally the presence of 1 ultimatum is enough to kill a relationship or is a sign that that relationship is already dead. You have 2 diametrically opposed ultimatums going on here.
I agree with previous posters that regardless of your conscious intent you are forcing her to initiate the breakup. Do you have an expiration date for if / when that does not happen? You are both wasting times moving on in your individual lives if you're ultimately going to break up.
EDIT: I see you are going to talk tonight. I hope you are tough enough to do the right thing. Her being willing to discuss not making it is really the first step towards acceptance. She may still need help though to get over the hurdle of saying it out loud and having it become real.
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So applying that to relationships-how should you ever expect to find a life partner if people change what they want? Is it the willingness to accept change or just the magnitude of the actual change by either partner (aka is it luck or do people make it work?)
You find a life partner who will grow with you and/or support you in your growth and change journey. There are people on this forum who have supported partners through career changes, sexual orientation changes and even gender transitions. Sometimes the relationship survives and sometimes it doesn't. The common thread is a good partner wants what's best for the other person, even if that means letting them go.
Hm. I mean I haven't ever felt like I don't want her in my life. Just not in terms of marriage-but that's not just her. That's anyone.
You want her in your life in a way that is selfish (for your own comfort and benefit). It will always make her unsatisfied and unhappy. Please do not tell her that you want her in your life before telling her all the reasons she's unlikely to be in your life. It just provides false hope and confusion... She either can't see or can't admit that she sees what is going on. You are giving her an ultimatum (sex, no marriage) and she is giving you a different ultimatum (marriage, then maybe sex). Generally the presence of 1 ultimatum is enough to kill a relationship or is a sign that that relationship is already dead. You have 2 diametrically opposed ultimatums going on here.
I agree with previous posters that regardless of your conscious intent you are forcing her to initiate the breakup. Do you have an expiration date for if / when that does not happen? You are both wasting times moving on in your individual lives if you're ultimately going to break up.
She's been super upset since last night so we're having a talk that hopefully clears up so important points tonight.
I know it's selfish and unreasonable to want her in my life for comfort and I kind of made it clear last night. The root isn't even no sex no marraige at this point-it's I don't want to get married/know if I want kids right now vs she had a future planned out. We're on 2 different timelines and asking her to wait around while I figure out what I want in life is ridiculous; which is what came out in counseling last night.
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Do you guys have any couple friends in happy relationships? Are your parents happily married? If not, was the divorce traumatic for either of you? The way you talk about your relationship makes me think you might not have positive examples of good relationships to look to. Also the fact that your friend is reluctant to discuss the relationship even with close friends or family is a bit strange, even for a rather private person. Relationships aren't supposed to be so hard, and leaving one that isn't working isn't quitting. Its a mature move that shows introspection and contemplation and a tough decision made. Media skews people's views of relationships terribly, but talking with real people you know and respect might bring some perspective to the situation.
Both of our parents are divorced (mine several years ago, hers many years ago). We're at the age where many of our friends are marrying and arranging for marraige. I know her parents divorce was harder than mine was.
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Do you guys have any couple friends in happy relationships? Are your parents happily married? If not, was the divorce traumatic for either of you? The way you talk about your relationship makes me think you might not have positive examples of good relationships to look to. Also the fact that your friend is reluctant to discuss the relationship even with close friends or family is a bit strange, even for a rather private person. Relationships aren't supposed to be so hard, and leaving one that isn't working isn't quitting. Its a mature move that shows introspection and contemplation and a tough decision made. Media skews people's views of relationships terribly, but talking with real people you know and respect might bring some perspective to the situation.
Both of our parents are divorced (mine several years ago, hers many years ago). We're at the age where many of our friends are marrying and arranging for marraige. I know her parents divorce was harder than mine was.
Given this information the fact that you two have remained in an unsatisfying relationship (while living together!) for several years seems to make sense. Is it possible that you are both simply trying to avoid breaking up EVER? Honestly, she should have left you when you cheated -- someone who isn't faithful in the first throes of a relationship is not good long-term material. But if not breaking up was the primary goal, then staying together makes sense.
Then, when sex was off the table AND YOU DIDN"T DISCUSS IT FOR MONTHS (much less years), it would have been time to accept that the relationship had fizzled and it was time to break up and move on. But if not breaking up was the primary goal, then staying together makes sense.
Now despite both of you seeing that you want very different things in this moment (her: kids marriage, you: not so much), it is a good time to part as friends and move on. But if not breaking up was the primary goal, then staying together makes sense.
Seeing a couples counselor has allowed you to keep that primary goal feasible. As long as you discuss and try to make each other understand instead of just facing facts, you are indeed NOT BREAKING UP.
I would suggest that "not breaking up" is a pitiful substitute for a lifelong vibrant fulfilling marriage full of laughter, joy, toe-curling sex, shared goals, achieved visions for one another (whatever happened to her speech path goal or your body building?).
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Do you guys have any couple friends in happy relationships? Are your parents happily married? If not, was the divorce traumatic for either of you? The way you talk about your relationship makes me think you might not have positive examples of good relationships to look to. Also the fact that your friend is reluctant to discuss the relationship even with close friends or family is a bit strange, even for a rather private person. Relationships aren't supposed to be so hard, and leaving one that isn't working isn't quitting. Its a mature move that shows introspection and contemplation and a tough decision made. Media skews people's views of relationships terribly, but talking with real people you know and respect might bring some perspective to the situation.
Both of our parents are divorced (mine several years ago, hers many years ago). We're at the age where many of our friends are marrying and arranging for marraige. I know her parents divorce was harder than mine was.
Given this information the fact that you two have remained in an unsatisfying relationship (while living together!) for several years seems to make sense. Is it possible that you are both simply trying to avoid breaking up EVER? Honestly, she should have left you when you cheated -- someone who isn't faithful in the first throes of a relationship is not good long-term material. But if not breaking up was the primary goal, then staying together makes sense.
Then, when sex was off the table AND YOU DIDN"T DISCUSS IT FOR MONTHS (much less years), it would have been time to accept that the relationship had fizzled and it was time to break up and move on. But if not breaking up was the primary goal, then staying together makes sense.
Now despite both of you seeing that you want very different things in this moment (her: kids marriage, you: not so much), it is a good time to part as friends and move on. But if not breaking up was the primary goal, then staying together makes sense.
Seeing a couples counselor has allowed you to keep that primary goal feasible. As long as you discuss and try to make each other understand instead of just facing facts, you are indeed NOT BREAKING UP.
I would suggest that "not breaking up" is a pitiful substitute for a lifelong vibrant fulfilling marriage full of laughter, joy, toe-curling sex, shared goals, achieved visions for one another (whatever happened to her speech path goal or your body building?).
Interesting perspective. I don't think we consciously decided we were NEVER going to break up-I think it was just something that followed with our attachment and codependency. Putting my feelings towards sex to the side was something I did as I was raised to never think I was entitled to things from someone else. It's something I expected my feelings would be able to deal with or at least accept.
Individually I guess we haven't focused on ourselves as a priority. She saw speech path as too pricey/didn't want to go away. I teach grappling nights on occasion still but haven't found the time to compete like i would due to the travel requirements and commitment out of the house
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Every single day that this relationship continues is just making it worse for both of you. Yank off the band-aid, and let the healing begin. You'll both be happier with someone else.
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She's going out to dinner with some of her work girlfriends and I'm headed to the gym. We chatted a bit in between and she was basically just like " I feel like I need to get out of the way for you to figure out what you want because I know what I want". We plan on having a real talk later this evening.
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She's going out to dinner with some of her work girlfriends and I'm headed to the gym. We chatted a bit in between and she was basically just like " I feel like I need to get out of the way for you to figure out what you want because I know what I want". We plan on having a real talk later this evening.
That sounds like a step in the next direction. I think we all here think that her moving out would be the right move for both of you, if ripping bandaid off tonight isn’t Plan A.
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"I feel like I need to get out of the way for you to figure out what you want because I know what I want". We plan on having a real talk later this evening.
It sounds to me like what she wants is for you to end the relationship that she knows is doomed, so that she doesn't have to bear any of the responsibility of making the hard decisions. It's much easier to play victim, even in cases where you secretly know it has to end, because it requires more courage to be the dumper than to be the dumpee.
Of course, mature adults would just agree to amicably separate for everyone's best interests, but it doesn't sound like that's going to be one of your available options. I suspect that she wants to be able to say "I tried everything to save our relationship but he wasn't having it." Regardless of the fact that it is her behavior that doomed it to begin with.
Dating is hard. I'm glad I'm married.
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I'm glad you stated that you love her. And it seems like she loves you. But again, I do not think love, or even comfortableness in the relationship is "enough". You both want different things. You want a relationship with sex, and most likely a relationship that is NOT a marriage. You are not interested in kids. You may never be interested in kids. In turn, she is uninterested in sex in the relationship, it is not a concern that sex is a regular fulfilling bonding aspect of your relationship, which it would be for you. She wants to be married. She knows she wants to have kids.
Can you see why, even if you do love each other as people, you two are not meant to be? It's just sad because you have both wasted years of each other's lives on something that ultimately wasn't going to work for either of you. If you had two good friends who confided in you, this particular situation, what would you advise them? To stay together regardless? That wouldn't be a good friend.
What is baffling is that all it takes for one person's needs or goals not to be met in a relationship to realize it, and end it. Here BOTH people are not having fundamental needs yet but BOTH people don't want to break it off! You even said that breaking up would be a failure. No, it's just acknowledging the truth of the situation. You love each other, but have different goals and relationship needs. To stay is a bigger failure because she can't find a guy she is attracted in that way, and possibly a marriage with children as long as she's with you. Maybe you need to take one for the team, and be the "jerk" in the situation where you break up and she cries with her girlfriends, they hate you and you both move on. You are both young, and you both will get over this, if you let yourself. Don't be the bigger jerk by stringing her along, which is what you are doing at this point.
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Before we left we had a slightly more aggressive talk. She keeps saying I cant see her in my future so why would she even want to work on intamcy and if I did want to try and make a future happen I should tell her. It makes me feel like she's saying im not as commited to the future as she is. Maybe we just view marraige as completely different definitions. Anyways she says she feels like I'm only giving her one option. We're having a big chat later when she gets home. Sigh.
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Before we left we had a slightly more aggressive talk.She keeps saying I cant see her in my future so why would she even want to work on intamcy and if I did want to try and make a future happen I should tell her. It makes me feel like she's saying im not as commited to the future as she is. Maybe we just view marraige as completely different definitions. Anyways she says she feels like I'm only giving her one option. We're having a big chat later when she gets home. Sigh.
She's got a point.
And she should break up with you because of it, but she won't because she's not strong enough.
You have to do it.
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A friend of mine was in a long-term relationship with a guy who didn’t know what he wanted in life. She knew what she wanted, marriage and kids. They broke up and four months later he was engaged to someone else. It ended up that while he didn’t know what he wanted, he knew he didn’t want a future with my friend. He just didn’t realize it until he’d gotten out of the relationship. Both he and my friend got married to other people, had children with their respective spouses and remain happy nearly 20 years later. It is definitely hard to leave a long-term relationship but wouldn’t you rather work on carving out a path toward a happy & healthy future?
I know a couple of people with similar stories.
OP, sometimes “not knowing what you want” is your brain riding the brakes because deep down in your subconscious, you know this isn’t what you want but you’re not quite willing to admit it yet.
Then after you break off the stagnant relationship, you meet the one you do want. And it’s night and day.
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A friend of mine was in a long-term relationship with a guy who didn’t know what he wanted in life. She knew what she wanted, marriage and kids. They broke up and four months later he was engaged to someone else. It ended up that while he didn’t know what he wanted, he knew he didn’t want a future with my friend. He just didn’t realize it until he’d gotten out of the relationship. Both he and my friend got married to other people, had children with their respective spouses and remain happy nearly 20 years later. It is definitely hard to leave a long-term relationship but wouldn’t you rather work on carving out a path toward a happy & healthy future?
I know a couple of people with similar stories.
OP, sometimes “not knowing what you want” is your brain riding the brakes because deep down in your subconscious, you know this isn’t what you want but you’re not quite willing to admit it yet.
Then after you break off the stagnant relationship, you meet the one you do want. And it’s night and day.
It's completely normal to have no idea what you want.
In fact, decisive certainty is so rare that the people who have it often are typically whackos with impulse control problems. They feel overly certain about things and lack the normal, constant doubt that mentally healthy people have.
If you are a normal, mentally healthy person with a constant stream of doubt and uncertainty in your brain, then those rare moments of certainty are profound, impactful, and life changing.
Just don't expect them often.
Your uncertainty in your relationship is far more healthy and normal than her certainty. Her certainty is not at all healthy. How can she possibly be maturely certain that she wants to marry you and have children with you when she doesn't even feel certain that you are solidly committed to her.
Her certainty isn't rational. Your UNcertainty is.
Your uncertainty makes perfect sense in a relationship that has a lot of good and some very serious bad. OF COURSE you aren't sure what to do because no option feels obviously right.
THAT'S NORMAL. Lean into it.
There are certain things you should wait to feel certain about
1: marriage
2: kids
3: elective surgery
Beyond that, everything else is a matter of managing uncertainty and making the most reasonable decisions within a cloud of confusion.
That's called being an adult.
Mature, responsible people learn to not get too bogged down in the uncertainty. They learn that holding out for an obvious answer is a surefire path to wasting A LOT of time and energy and that often not making a decision is the *exact same* as making a TERRIBLE decision.
When it comes to relationships, it's very very difficult to know when it's truly wrong, but it's absolutely unambiguous when it's right. So if it's not obviously, overwhelmingly right...well...it's not going to be, and you are probably wasting both party's time.
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@Malkynn You are so damn wise and articulate. I really love reading your insights and what you’ve written above really makes sense.
Edited to correct placement of response.
Life really isn't that complicated once you stop expecting it to make sense.
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Well she's at work today. I'm currently focusing on the talk tonight and if I want to leave a door open to getting back together in the future.
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Well she's at work today. I'm currently focusing on the talk tonight and if I want to leave a door open to getting back together in the future.
Good luck for the talk. It's not going to be easy but it has to be done.
I agree with Malkynn about meeting the right person. It should be 100% clear after a relatively short period of dating if you've met the person you should marry. Obviously, no one is perfect, but this kind of doubt is a 'fatal flaw'.
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@Malkynn You are so damn wise and articulate. I really love reading your insights and what you’ve written above really makes sense.
Edited to correct placement of response.
Life really isn't that complicated once you stop expecting it to make sense.
I love this quote, will steal
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A friend of mine was in a long-term relationship with a guy who didn’t know what he wanted in life. She knew what she wanted, marriage and kids. They broke up and four months later he was engaged to someone else. It ended up that while he didn’t know what he wanted, he knew he didn’t want a future with my friend. He just didn’t realize it until he’d gotten out of the relationship. Both he and my friend got married to other people, had children with their respective spouses and remain happy nearly 20 years later. It is definitely hard to leave a long-term relationship but wouldn’t you rather work on carving out a path toward a happy & healthy future?
I know a couple of people with similar stories.
OP, sometimes “not knowing what you want” is your brain riding the brakes because deep down in your subconscious, you know this isn’t what you want but you’re not quite willing to admit it yet.
Then after you break off the stagnant relationship, you meet the one you do want. And it’s night and day.
I do too.
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So we're taking a 2 week break. I'm staying at my buddies house for a week. She's staying at her dad's the next. That was so we can see how we are apart. She made it hard. Told me I need to figure out what I want and that if two people love enough they can make it work. She feels like we didn't even try going on dates etc to retain intamacy and instead just tore ourselves to shreds in counseling. Idk I feel like trash and driving to my buddies need to really reflect on how I feel. I already feel the "we could make this work pang".
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These two weeks will suck. In fact, they'll suck worse than if you had actually broken it off permanently. That doesn't mean that a permanent break is the wrong path.
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These two weeks will suck. In fact, they'll suck worse than if you had actually broken it off permanently. That doesn't mean that a permanent break is the wrong path.
I'm seeing her tomorrow and may reiterate this. I too kind of feel like a trial period is harder than a break with a possible 2 week check in. Idk it was a hard conversation I saw how much more invested in a future she was than I had put thought into.
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You might also say that if two people REALLY loved each other enough, they'd let each other go and pursue their dreams. I think two weeks is chump change. Go for six months of no contact and see where you stand.
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You might also say that if two people REALLY loved each other enough, they'd let each other go and pursue their dreams. I think two weeks is chump change. Go for six months of no contact and see where you stand.
Yeah 2 weeks is......idk. it's something. Sorry I'm just feeling all kinds of things right now.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitely not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
When I was 25, I had no idea what I wanted. I wasn't against marriage, but unlike every one of my friends, it wasn't something I actively wanted. I had no real feelings about it at all. It wasn't until I started dating the person who would become my husband that I suddenly wanted to be married. I never wanted to be married until I wanted to be married *to him*.
OTOH, it seems like your girlfriend is just the opposite. She is Absolutely certain that she wants to get married. That is entirely separate from and has nothing to do with you. You are just "insert guy into tuxedo at the altar". That's why she's clinging so desperately to all this. She's desperate to marry and to marry NOW, and the most likely candidate for that is you. And so great is her desperation that she doesn't differentiate between the most likely candidate and the BEST candidate.
I think this 2 weeks is just drawing out the inevitable. When you finally decide to fully break it off, she is quite likely going to try everything. It's going to suck. You just need to have a script and stick to it. Don't let her pull you off message. Don't engage. When she says that if you love her you'd try harder, don't engage because nothing good will come of it, there is no right answer, and it just prolongs. Stick to your vague message about how it just isn't working for you any more. After a handful of repetitions, just say that you really don't think anything productive is going to come from this, and excuse yourself, and leave.
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I think this 2 weeks is just drawing out the inevitable.
Not only is it a) delaying the inevitable, it's also b) making it so very much harder to separate when the time comes, and it's c) stealing away life from both of them that they could be using to heal and then move on to healthy relationships.
Seriously, this two week plan is the second shittiest thing you could possibly do. The shittiest thing would be agreeing to stay together.
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Look guys.
Sorry if I'm not doing the "right" thing. I'm learning as I go. I'm at my friends tonight and will see her tomorrow when pack. Between now and then I will try to sort my thoughts and emotions. It hurts. She says the balls in my court and I need to decide if I want her in the future etcetc.
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Good luck, zoo. I know it’s hard.
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So we're taking a 2 week break. I'm staying at my buddies house for a week. She's staying at her dad's the next. That was so we can see how we are apart. She made it hard. Told me I need to figure out what I want and that if two people love enough they can make it work. She feels like we didn't even try going on dates etc to retain intamacy and instead just tore ourselves to shreds in counseling. Idk I feel like trash and driving to my buddies need to really reflect on how I feel. I already feel the "we could make this work pang".
dates? Didn't u just go on an expensive cruise?don't tell me you never went on dates the past 5-7 years. She is not being reasonable, and she's trying to guilt you into staying.
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Use this two weeks to focus on yourself. Work out regularly, eat healthy, go to bed early and get good sleep. You won't have the answers but you can do the best things possible for you.
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Sigh.
She is bullying you.
I know why. She wants you to shove your feelings way deep down so that you will just ignore them. Because she knows that’s the only way she gets what she wants.
I’m sure she’s scared. That’s why she’s acting like this. But she is banking that you feeling like trash will be what makes you come back and drop all your concerns, and just get married and be done with it all.
I think a few months would be better.
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@zoochadookdook :
This sounds like a step in the right direction. It will be strange to be live separately for the first time in years, but this is a chance to live in your own thoughts and sort out your own goals and desires.
I would suggest extremely minimal (if any) contact with your girlfriend during the two weeks, just so you have the time and space to contemplate the future without another voice in your head.
If you do decide to break up, there's no way it won't be painful, so I understand the need to move slowly and deliberately. Ultimately we are random people from the internet with no personal stake in the relationship, so it's been easy for us to recommend breaking up. But I know a situation like this can be profoundly shattering in the moment even if it all works out for the best in the end.
Good luck to you.
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So we're taking a 2 week break. I'm staying at my buddies house for a week. She's staying at her dad's the next. That was so we can see how we are apart.
You've done the "lets break up for a week" thing before, and ended up going back to each other. I have no doubt that your roommate (after reading your post I don't think I can any longer call her your "friend") thinks that this will end up the same way.
She made it hard
Your roommate is making it hard for you because she is prioritising her wants (marriage and kids) over your happiness.
Told me I need to figure out what I want
You already know what you want: you want a loving, erotic, sexual relationship with your life partner. By saying "you need to figure out what you want" your roommate is disrespecting what you have being saying to her for weeks, and trying to create the opportunity for you to change your mind.
Have you come across the term "gaslighting"? There's a good explanation of it here - https://www.thehotline.org/what-is-gaslighting/ Some at least of what it sets out fits how your roommate behaves towards you. Telling you that you need to figure out what you want when you have already made it abundantly clear, including in counselling, what you want, is gaslighting.
if two people love enough they can make it work.
You have a friendship love, and however much you love each other as friends that is fundamentally different from loving each other as erotic, sexual partners for life.
She feels like we didn't even try going on dates etc to retain int[i ]macy and instead just tore ourselves to shreds in counseling.
partgypsy is right: you have just been on a holiday cruise together. If seven days and nights away on holiday didn't reset your relationship into a sexual one, evenings out together aren't going to do it. And I don't get any sense that you "tore yourselves to shreds" in counselling: is that how you have seen it? I think your roommate is disrespecting the counselling you have done together because it hasn't got her what she wants. See "gaslighting" again.
Idk I feel like trash
You are not trash. You are a good man who is working hard at finding his way in life. If you feel like trash it is because you were made to feel that way by someone else. And someone who makes you "feel like trash" is not someone it is good and healthy to have in your life.
driving to my buddies need to really reflect on how I feel.
You already know how you feel: it is your roommate who is working hard to divert you away from the way you feel. See "gaslighting" again.
I already feel the "we could make this work pang".
Yeah, that's what your roommate is counting on: she's kicked you out of the home you bought and paid for to spend an uncomfortable week on a buddy's couch/spare bed, no doubt in the hope that you will be so pleased to get home at the end of the week that you won't mind that she is still there (and I bet if you give her any opportunity to still be there and not move out to her dad's she will take it).
I'm sorry that this is hard. Your post makes it clear that your roommate is clinging far too hard to the wreckage of a failed relationship, and in order to do so is behaving towards you in ways that are actively harmful to both of you. I hope you can find the strength to follow through on what you know to be right for both of you, and end any relationship with this person once and for all.
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This is definitely a step in the right direction but as others have said just prolongs the inevitable. As others have said she is bullying/gaslighting you by not acknowledging that you know your own feelings and have communicated them. I had an ex boyfriend do this to me many years ago. He was desperate to get married/make the relationship work and I wanted to break up. When I said "I want to break up for X and Y reason" his reply was "no". I was only 22 so I let him get away with this for a while and it was horrible. Now I'm in my 40s and I can see how disrespectful this was. Of course he was hurt but that's just life. He should have accepted what I said and left me alone. BTW my ex in now happily married to someone who loves him back and they have a kid and a house and all the things he wanted.
The only way to do this is to just not engage/draw decent boundaries. Tell her that you want to break up as this is not working for you. Have her move out and then don't see her for at least several months. If she needs to come by to collect something that's at your house, have a friend or relative let her in. Sounds harsh but having been through many breakups in my time, this is the way to do it.
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After clearly communicating that you are leaving the relationship, you —leave the relationship. You do that by your actions not your words.
Trying to convince your SO that you need to break up is weak and immature. SHE DOES NOT HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU. Adults who are successful at adulting know how to set and keep boundaries.. They do not expect other people to always agree with them and honor their boundaries. It takes strength and determination to carry out personal boundaries.
Learning to set and keep boundaries will aid you so much in your next relationship! Really!
Oh, and the idea that if you love each other you can make anything work is just silly pablum. It’s just a different restating of the idea that all you need is love to make a relationship work, which is bullshit.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitely not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
When I was 25, I had no idea what I wanted. I wasn't against marriage, but unlike every one of my friends, it wasn't something I actively wanted. I had no real feelings about it at all. It wasn't until I started dating the person who would become my husband that I suddenly wanted to be married. I never wanted to be married until I wanted to be married *to him*.
OTOH, it seems like your girlfriend is just the opposite. She is Absolutely certain that she wants to get married. That is entirely separate from and has nothing to do with you. You are just "insert guy into tuxedo at the altar". That's why she's clinging so desperately to all this. She's desperate to marry and to marry NOW, and the most likely candidate for that is you. And so great is her desperation that she doesn't differentiate between the most likely candidate and the BEST candidate.
I think this 2 weeks is just drawing out the inevitable. When you finally decide to fully break it off, she is quite likely going to try everything. It's going to suck. You just need to have a script and stick to it. Don't let her pull you off message. Don't engage. When she says that if you love her you'd try harder, don't engage because nothing good will come of it, there is no right answer, and it just prolongs. Stick to your vague message about how it just isn't working for you any more. After a handful of repetitions, just say that you really don't think anything productive is going to come from this, and excuse yourself, and leave.
She's actually told me she doesn't need to get married right away. The main focus is if i see a future/want to work towards one with her. She stated that she was open to a long engagement prior and just at this point we should know if we want to be together for the long haul.
She's not infatuated with the idea of marraige, but it's a important part of a future together. That's the loaded question. Do I want her in my future? YES. Do I want our relationship to be the way it is and can I get engaged or married prior to it undergoing changes? NO.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitely not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
When I was 25, I had no idea what I wanted. I wasn't against marriage, but unlike every one of my friends, it wasn't something I actively wanted. I had no real feelings about it at all. It wasn't until I started dating the person who would become my husband that I suddenly wanted to be married. I never wanted to be married until I wanted to be married *to him*.
OTOH, it seems like your girlfriend is just the opposite. She is Absolutely certain that she wants to get married. That is entirely separate from and has nothing to do with you. You are just "insert guy into tuxedo at the altar". That's why she's clinging so desperately to all this. She's desperate to marry and to marry NOW, and the most likely candidate for that is you. And so great is her desperation that she doesn't differentiate between the most likely candidate and the BEST candidate.
I think this 2 weeks is just drawing out the inevitable. When you finally decide to fully break it off, she is quite likely going to try everything. It's going to suck. You just need to have a script and stick to it. Don't let her pull you off message. Don't engage. When she says that if you love her you'd try harder, don't engage because nothing good will come of it, there is no right answer, and it just prolongs. Stick to your vague message about how it just isn't working for you any more. After a handful of repetitions, just say that you really don't think anything productive is going to come from this, and excuse yourself, and leave.
She's actually told me she doesn't need to get married right away. The main focus is if i see a future/want to work towards one with her. She stated that she was open to a long engagement prior and just at this point we should know if we want to be together for the long haul.
She's not infatuated with the idea of marraige, but it's a important part of a future together. That's the loaded question. Do I want her in my future? YES. Do I want our relationship to be the way it is and can I get engaged or married prior to it undergoing changes? NO.
Because her focus is on the outcome of being reassured that you want to marry her, not on actually being married to you.
This is not her being reasonable, this is her fishing for exactly what she's wanted all along: you to say what she wants you to say because she thinks it will make her feel more secure.
Which is nonsense.
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So we're taking a 2 week break. I'm staying at my buddies house for a week. She's staying at her dad's the next. That was so we can see how we are apart. She made it hard. Told me I need to figure out what I want and that if two people love enough they can make it work. She feels like we didn't even try going on dates etc to retain intamacy and instead just tore ourselves to shreds in counseling. Idk I feel like trash and driving to my buddies need to really reflect on how I feel. I already feel the "we could make this work pang".
dates? Didn't u just go on an expensive cruise?don't tell me you never went on dates the past 5-7 years. She is not being reasonable, and she's trying to guilt you into staying.
I guess she meant to the context of dating with purpose. We would go out every now and then but yeah. The cruise she definitly was sad on when I told her I wasn't going to ask her to get engaged beforehand but we went and had a good time regardless.
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitely not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
When I was 25, I had no idea what I wanted. I wasn't against marriage, but unlike every one of my friends, it wasn't something I actively wanted. I had no real feelings about it at all. It wasn't until I started dating the person who would become my husband that I suddenly wanted to be married. I never wanted to be married until I wanted to be married *to him*.
OTOH, it seems like your girlfriend is just the opposite. She is Absolutely certain that she wants to get married. That is entirely separate from and has nothing to do with you. You are just "insert guy into tuxedo at the altar". That's why she's clinging so desperately to all this. She's desperate to marry and to marry NOW, and the most likely candidate for that is you. And so great is her desperation that she doesn't differentiate between the most likely candidate and the BEST candidate.
I think this 2 weeks is just drawing out the inevitable. When you finally decide to fully break it off, she is quite likely going to try everything. It's going to suck. You just need to have a script and stick to it. Don't let her pull you off message. Don't engage. When she says that if you love her you'd try harder, don't engage because nothing good will come of it, there is no right answer, and it just prolongs. Stick to your vague message about how it just isn't working for you any more. After a handful of repetitions, just say that you really don't think anything productive is going to come from this, and excuse yourself, and leave.
She's actually told me she doesn't need to get married right away. The main focus is if i see a future/want to work towards one with her. She stated that she was open to a long engagement prior and just at this point we should know if we want to be together for the long haul.
She's not infatuated with the idea of marraige, but it's a important part of a future together. That's the loaded question. Do I want her in my future? YES. Do I want our relationship to be the way it is and can I get engaged or married prior to it undergoing changes? NO.
Because her focus is on the outcome of being reassured that you want to marry her, not on actually being married to you.
This is not her being reasonable, this is her fishing for exactly what she's wanted all along: you to say what she wants you to say because she thinks it will make her feel more secure.
Which is nonsense.
I guess I can see it from that standpoint; but I do understand why. Like she feels pressure to open up and create intamacy so I will pursue that future-but she doesn't want to open that vulnerability unless I am looking to pursue that. I honestly want a future with her and have wanted one-but i can't commit to one without changing our relationship lol. It's literally a neverending circle.
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I guess the problem is that I dont 100% want to break up. I just don't see how to fix things without turning it into adrawn out stand off of how we both feel
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I guess the problem is that I dont 100% want to break up. I just don't see how to fix things without turning it into adrawn out stand off of how we both feel
What percent do you want to break up?
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OP, your posts make me think of a book called "I Don't Know What I Want But I Know It's Not This."
Here's the amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-What-Step-Step/dp/0143128515
The book is actually about jobs/careers, but I have to wonder if there may be some helpful information in it if you think about it in the context of a relationship. You work at a university? Maybe your library has a copy.
It sounds silly like even to me. How can I not know what I want in life? I'm 26-27 in may. I should have an inkling of what career I'd like to pursue in the future, if having a family/marraige is a must have or a definitely not/a billion other things but I just really don't know.
When I was 25, I had no idea what I wanted. I wasn't against marriage, but unlike every one of my friends, it wasn't something I actively wanted. I had no real feelings about it at all. It wasn't until I started dating the person who would become my husband that I suddenly wanted to be married. I never wanted to be married until I wanted to be married *to him*.
OTOH, it seems like your girlfriend is just the opposite. She is Absolutely certain that she wants to get married. That is entirely separate from and has nothing to do with you. You are just "insert guy into tuxedo at the altar". That's why she's clinging so desperately to all this. She's desperate to marry and to marry NOW, and the most likely candidate for that is you. And so great is her desperation that she doesn't differentiate between the most likely candidate and the BEST candidate.
I think this 2 weeks is just drawing out the inevitable. When you finally decide to fully break it off, she is quite likely going to try everything. It's going to suck. You just need to have a script and stick to it. Don't let her pull you off message. Don't engage. When she says that if you love her you'd try harder, don't engage because nothing good will come of it, there is no right answer, and it just prolongs. Stick to your vague message about how it just isn't working for you any more. After a handful of repetitions, just say that you really don't think anything productive is going to come from this, and excuse yourself, and leave.
She's actually told me she doesn't need to get married right away. The main focus is if i see a future/want to work towards one with her. She stated that she was open to a long engagement prior and just at this point we should know if we want to be together for the long haul.
She's not infatuated with the idea of marraige, but it's a important part of a future together. That's the loaded question. Do I want her in my future? YES. Do I want our relationship to be the way it is and can I get engaged or married prior to it undergoing changes? NO.
Because her focus is on the outcome of being reassured that you want to marry her, not on actually being married to you.
This is not her being reasonable, this is her fishing for exactly what she's wanted all along: you to say what she wants you to say because she thinks it will make her feel more secure.
Which is nonsense.
I guess I can see it from that standpoint; but I do understand why. Like she feels pressure to open up and create intamacy so I will pursue that future-but she doesn't want to open that vulnerability unless I am looking to pursue that. I honestly want a future with her and have wanted one-but i can't commit to one without changing our relationship lol. It's literally a neverending circle.
Everyone and their grandmother knows that you understand her side and where she's coming from. It seems to be the main thing you have focused on all along.
You have very little insight or perspective on your own experience/wants/needs/opinions/drives/cares/fears/challenges/hopes/etc but 90% of your posts have been you understanding and defending her position.
You get how fucked that is, right?
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I guess the problem is that I dont 100% want to break up. I just don't see how to fix things without turning it into adrawn out stand off of how we both feel
What percent do you want to break up?
It's a solid 50 50. I'm not not commited to her. I am not commited to the idea of marriage or have felt like I wanted kids yet. I think of her as a person and know shed be a great mother/ life partner but if she is demi sexual and cant explore or develope intamacy without having a lifelong commitment I dont know how I feel about that.
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I guess the problem is that I dont 100% want to break up. I just don't see how to fix things without turning it into adrawn out stand off of how we both feel
What percent do you want to break up?
It's a solid 50 50. I'm not not commited to her. I am not commited to the idea of marriage or have felt like I wanted kids yet. I think of her as a person and know shed be a great mother/ life partner but if she is demi sexual and cant explore or develope intamacy without having a lifelong commitment I dont know how I feel about that.
Honestly, I think that’s your answer.
A relationship where one person is only 50 50 in it... well, it’s kind of already over.
And... if I were in a relationship with someone who was only 50%, I couldn’t be happy. The relationship would make me miserable, and insecure, and sad, and helpless, and on edge.
She wants you to be 100%. But you aren’t. You want her to be something she isn’t, too.
This isn’t right. I know it sucks that 50% of her/the relationship is something you want. But you have to know that there’s someone out there for you that you’ll feel 100% about, right?
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I feel 100% about her as a person.
Just not the no sex (shallow) or readiness to marry.
Went home today to get clothes and we got back into it. She doesnt see how I wont even try and how people in long term relationships make effort/try to keep eachother. All we've done is go to a few consoling sessions and argue. Shes made it clear what she wants and I need to decide.
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I feel 100% about her as a person.
Just not the no sex (shallow) or readiness to marry.
Went home today to get clothes and we got back into it. She doesnt see how I wont even try and how people in long term relationships make effort/try to keep eachother. All we've done is go to a few consoling sessions and argue. Shes made it clear what she wants and I need to decide.
Then decide.
This is a legitimate demand on her part. You've had 7 years, you are either certain or you aren't.
The rest of what she is saying is manipulative, emotionally absurd nonsense out of desperation because she feels she is losing ground, so she's trying to call your bluff, but the part about you having to decide is totally reasonable.
You have more than enough information to be able to decide if you are ready to marry her.
You aren't.
Move on.
ETA: Just know that she won't make this easy for you. She'll say whatever she needs to say to make this incredibly emotionally difficult for you because she is terrified.
The right answer of leaving isn't going to feel right. So don't expect it to.
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Leaving is really tough and some people stay together because no one has the balls to leave. I find that really sad. Yes if you are in a long marriage it can be work at times but not all the time. If you are ever able to let go later you will be mad at yourself for staying too long. If she was serious about sex the cruise was the perfect setting.
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Leaving is really tough and some people stay together because no one has the balls to leave. I find that really sad. Yes if you are in a long marriage it can be work at times but not all the time. If you are ever able to let go later you will be mad at yourself for staying too long. If she was serious about sex the cruise was the perfect setting.
She had basically had this plan that she was ready for sex after engagement (used to be marriage) and the cruise was perfect for it. Once she found out the week before we wouldnt be getting engaged.....obviously the mood shifted.
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She is making you pay for sex. Can we say unhealthy and manipulative?
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Leaving is really tough and some people stay together because no one has the balls to leave. I find that really sad. Yes if you are in a long marriage it can be work at times but not all the time. If you are ever able to let go later you will be mad at yourself for staying too long. If she was serious about sex the cruise was the perfect setting.
She had basically had this plan that she was ready for sex after engagement (used to be marriage) and the cruise was perfect for it. Once she found out the week before we wouldnt be getting engaged.....obviously the mood shifted.
I'm just going to keep calling you out every time someone challenges your thinking and you jump to explaining HER point of view and not your own.
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Somebody else way up thread said basically the same thing I've been thinking this whole time, but I have a little time on my hands so I'll write my own response, too.
Your relationship is riddled with logical fallacies and inconsistencies. I think that's why so many people are jumping on it.
Personally, I'm a very conservative Christian. I had religious convictions to not have sex until I was married. Because of this, I also refused to live with a man until I was married. This conviction led to most men rejecting me until I found one who felt the same way I did and also was very compatible with me. We dated for seven months before getting engaged and then were married five months later. Only when we were married did we have sex.
This wasn't because we weren't interested in sex. We just believe that sex is sacred and leads to big problems if people mess around with it outside of a committed relationship. So in that way, I totally get where the GF is coming from. I have no interest in extra-marital sex, either. Too much risk. I can't be vulnerable that way unless the guy is married to me. And I refuse to apologize for that, and I actually think there's a lot of sense in it regardless of one's religious feelings or lack of them.
What makes no sense is why are you living together?? You guys have been acting like you're married for years, except you aren't married at all. This is why there's so much chaos and confusion.
There's a general lack of clarity and direction in your life, at least from the sound of your posts. I definitely think some time apart--as much as you have the gumption for--is going to help you a lot.
Finally, have you ever heard of Jordan Peterson? He's controversial and a lot of people can't stand him, but personally, I think a lot of what he has to say about young men pursuing purpose and what makes good relationships is spot on. Just look him up on Youtube. There are dozens and dozens of good clips if you have some time to go down a little rabbit hole.
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
It was more to the idea that her moms house doesnt have the office cleaned out (space) and her dads is under construction. I have friends with prepared living arrangements and thought it would be easier for me to stay with them.
She's under the impression that she knows how she feels and it's really up to me to make up my mind. Stay with her and try to work through it or give up and dont. She hasn't given up and is to the point that if I care I'll try.
I do care, and I want to try, but it just doesnt make sense how I'm supposed to.
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Somebody else way up thread said basically the same thing I've been thinking this whole time, but I have a little time on my hands so I'll write my own response, too.
Your relationship is riddled with logical fallacies and inconsistencies. I think that's why so many people are jumping on it.
Personally, I'm a very conservative Christian. I had religious convictions to not have sex until I was married. Because of this, I also refused to live with a man until I was married. This conviction led to most men rejecting me until I found one who felt the same way I did and also was very compatible with me. We dated for seven months before getting engaged and then were married five months later. Only when we were married did we have sex.
This wasn't because we weren't interested in sex. We just believe that sex is sacred and leads to big problems if people mess around with it outside of a committed relationship. So in that way, I totally get where the GF is coming from. I have no interest in extra-marital sex, either. Too much risk. I can't be vulnerable that way unless the guy is married to me. And I refuse to apologize for that, and I actually think there's a lot of sense in it regardless of one's religious feelings or lack of them.
What makes no sense is why are you living together?? You guys have been acting like you're married for years, except you aren't married at all. This is why there's so much chaos and confusion.
There's a general lack of clarity and direction in your life, at least from the sound of your posts. I definitely think some time apart--as much as you have the gumption for--is going to help you a lot.
Finally, have you ever heard of Jordan Peterson? He's controversial and a lot of people can't stand him, but personally, I think a lot of what he has to say about young men pursuing purpose and what makes good relationships is spot on. Just look him up on Youtube. There are dozens and dozens of good clips if you have some time to go down a little rabbit hole.
I guess the core of it is I don't want to continue a celibate relationship although it may be the factor I need to get to marraige I'm not sure. I think that she has seen the damage sex can do and while she wants it in our future and was mentally prepared to start on the ship/after percieved engagement-me not being on the same page made her retract. Now she cant even imagine trying if I can commit to a future 100%.
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And yes we have been living together for so long that it is and has been a constant in our lives
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
It was more to the idea that her moms house doesnt have the office cleaned out (space) and her dads is under construction. I have friends with prepared living arrangements and thought it would be easier for me to stay with them.
She's under the impression that she knows how she feels and it's really up to me to make up my mind. Stay with her and try to work through it or give up and dont. She hasn't given up and is to the point that if I care I'll try.
I do care, and I want to try, but it just doesnt make sense how I'm supposed to.
So, if you two break up, it’s all your fault.
That’s about the gist of how she wants you to think, isn’t it?
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
It was more to the idea that her moms house doesnt have the office cleaned out (space) and her dads is under construction. I have friends with prepared living arrangements and thought it would be easier for me to stay with them.
She's under the impression that she knows how she feels and it's really up to me to make up my mind. Stay with her and try to work through it or give up and dont. She hasn't given up and is to the point that if I care I'll try.
I do care, and I want to try, but it just doesnt make sense how I'm supposed to.
So, if you two break up, it’s all your fault.
That’s about the gist of how she wants you to think, isn’t it?
If we break up it's because we havent tried long enough to see if we can work through this. We really only did start this like a month ago.
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
It was more to the idea that her moms house doesnt have the office cleaned out (space) and her dads is under construction. I have friends with prepared living arrangements and thought it would be easier for me to stay with them.
She's under the impression that she knows how she feels and it's really up to me to make up my mind. Stay with her and try to work through it or give up and dont. She hasn't given up and is to the point that if I care I'll try.
I do care, and I want to try, but it just doesnt make sense how I'm supposed to.
So, if you two break up, it’s all your fault.
That’s about the gist of how she wants you to think, isn’t it?
If we break up it's because we havent tried long enough to see if we can work through this. We really only did start this like a month ago.
No.
You've been together for 7 years.
A month ago, you started acknowledging that your relationship doesn't work.
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
It was more to the idea that her moms house doesnt have the office cleaned out (space) and her dads is under construction. I have friends with prepared living arrangements and thought it would be easier for me to stay with them.
She's under the impression that she knows how she feels and it's really up to me to make up my mind. Stay with her and try to work through it or give up and dont. She hasn't given up and is to the point that if I care I'll try.
I do care, and I want to try, but it just doesnt make sense how I'm supposed to.
So, if you two break up, it’s all your fault.
That’s about the gist of how she wants you to think, isn’t it?
If we break up it's because we havent tried long enough to see if we can work through this. We really only did start this like a month ago.
No.
You've been together for 7 years.
A month ago, you started acknowledging that your relationship doesn't work.
Here's her logic. It's out in the open now what's not working. Why dont we try to work on it before we leave?
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
It was more to the idea that her moms house doesnt have the office cleaned out (space) and her dads is under construction. I have friends with prepared living arrangements and thought it would be easier for me to stay with them.
She's under the impression that she knows how she feels and it's really up to me to make up my mind. Stay with her and try to work through it or give up and dont. She hasn't given up and is to the point that if I care I'll try.
I do care, and I want to try, but it just doesnt make sense how I'm supposed to.
So, if you two break up, it’s all your fault.
That’s about the gist of how she wants you to think, isn’t it?
If we break up it's because we havent tried long enough to see if we can work through this. We really only did start this like a month ago.
No.
You've been together for 7 years.
A month ago, you started acknowledging that your relationship doesn't work.
Here's her logic. It's out in the open now what's not working. Why dont we try to work on it before we leave?
You’re at a stalemate, though.
She wants engagement, and will not move forward on even trying to establish an intimate relationship with you until she gets a ring.
You want/need to have a relationship with intimacy in a person you could consider getting engaged to.
I don’t know what there is to “work on” anymore. Unless what she means is you need to work on being okay with proposing to her even though you aren’t ready or comfortable with it.
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Here's her logic. It's out in the open now what's not working. Why dont we try to work on it before we leave?
And AGAIN you are speaking to HER perspective when someone challenges you on your own experience.
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Here's her logic. It's out in the open now what's not working. Why dont we try to work on it before we leave?
And AGAIN you are speaking to HER perspective when someone challenges you on your own experience.
I feel split. I dont want to try to change a relationship that has been proven one way-however I do feel like it may be possible (you dont know unless you try) now that everything is out in the open.
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
It was more to the idea that her moms house doesnt have the office cleaned out (space) and her dads is under construction. I have friends with prepared living arrangements and thought it would be easier for me to stay with them.
She's under the impression that she knows how she feels and it's really up to me to make up my mind. Stay with her and try to work through it or give up and dont. She hasn't given up and is to the point that if I care I'll try.
I do care, and I want to try, but it just doesnt make sense how I'm supposed to.
So, as a thought experiment, let's see how her impression holds up if we flip it.
Let's say that we get through the two weeks and you say the following:
"Now that we have had a little space and some time to reflect, I have made up my mind and I understand what I want and need out of a relationship. I need to know that there is an underlying compatibility of a romantic, physical, and sexual nature in order to commit to a partner. Without that knowledge I cannot proceed with a proposal, engagement, or marriage until I have that component of a relationship. That is how I feel. Now, do you want to stay and try and work through it or do you want to give up?"
Do that show how limiting this framing of "try everything before we call it quits" is? You too have a fundamental incompatibility in your goals for relationships. Honestly, I think the therapy was really helpful. You two have revealed and shared that you have no path forward as a long-term bonded pair.
edited: grammar is hard.
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If you are taking a two week break, why did *you* move out of your house?
If you're testing the waters of being single, that's a ridiculous way to go about it because if you were single, wouldn't you stay in the house (and she would move out) considering it's your house???
Did she pitch it that way so it's "fair"? This reminds me of when you said that she felt it wasn't "fair" for her to work on intimacy but that you didn't have anything to work on. Sometimes, things aren't fair.
It's totally illogical for you to move out, unless she's hoping that the discomfort of living away from home will make you miss her/your relationship more and have you return to her. Which, while a horrible thing to do to someone, could be very effective because couch surfing does suck, even more so while you're paying your mortgage. And ultimately, not giving the break up a fair trial means that if you do go back to her, your doubts won't all be resolved.
It was more to the idea that her moms house doesnt have the office cleaned out (space) and her dads is under construction. I have friends with prepared living arrangements and thought it would be easier for me to stay with them.
She's under the impression that she knows how she feels and it's really up to me to make up my mind. Stay with her and try to work through it or give up and dont. She hasn't given up and is to the point that if I care I'll try.
I do care, and I want to try, but it just doesnt make sense how I'm supposed to.
So, as a thought experiment, let's see how her impression holds up if we flip it.
Let's say that we get through the two weeks and you say the following:
"Now that we have had a little space and some time to reflect, I have made up my mind and I understand what I want and need out of a relationship. I need to know that there is an underlying compatibility of a romantic, physical, and sexual nature in order to commit to a partner. Without that knowledge I cannot proceed with a proposal, engagement, or marriage until I have that component of a relationship. That is how I feel. Now, do you want to stay and try and work through it or do you want to give up?"
Do that show how limiting this framing of "try everything before we call it quits" is? You too have a fundamental incompatibility in your goals for relationships. Honestly, I think the therapy was really helpful. You two have revealed and shared that you have no path forward as a long-term bonded pair.
edited: grammar is hard.
I'm actually interested in hearing her reply. It seems to be along the lines of "I cant do that unless I know you're commited" and back and forth. Neither of us is wrong I dont think.
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Thought experiment: if you two didn't live together but everything else was the same (no sex, no marriage path, etc.), would you still be in this relationship? Would she? Would you both drive across town to spend time together and drive home by yourselves several times a week for seven years with no progress on what's important to you? Would you stay exclusive or would you both continue to see other people?
In a way, it seems that living together has short-circuited this relationship more than anything else. When I was dating, I never wanted to move in with a guy because I knew it would be so hard (emotionally and logistically) to move out. Not living together gives you the clarity and maneuvering room to make good choices early on.
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No one has to be "wrong" or at "at fault."
You're not compatible. Both of you are saying the same thing that you're not compatible. Only she is framing that incompatibility as something you should "Work on" or that you can "Try" to do something about. There is nothing you can do because that's what incompatibility means. It is NOT quitting to accept this truth. Love doesn't overcome incompatibility.
OP - This thread is 11 pages long. There hasn't been a single person who has commented to you that thinks this relationship IS working or CAN work in the future. Do you know how uncommon that is here?
People in long term marriages, people who have been divorced, people who are your age, people who are older than you, people who have a religious perspective and set of beliefs around marriage/relationships, people who are completely secular....there is a reason that EVERYONE is telling you the same thing.
The problem isn't that you aren't trying hard enough or don't know what you want. The problem is that you are incompatible. This isn't ONE person's fault, because incompatibility means you want different and inconsistent things from one another. There is no longer conversation with her that is going to change this. You already have talked enough. You already KNOW what the behaviors from one another you each are seeking would be.
Your gf is trying to convince you that if you tried harder or loved more, you would change who you are or what you want in life or how you feel about your own needs. This is false, and every single person reading this thread has come to the exact same conclusion.
At this point, you don't need another 100 opinions or back and forths with people telling you the same thing. You most certainly don't need to subject your gf's behavior to more attack that you feel the need to defend (it's not her fault! it's not your fault! you're just not a good fit for each other!).
At this point, you need to sit down with someone who is supportive of you and your needs, while also sympathetic to your feelings and desire not to continue hurting your gf. Whether it's a close friend or seeing a therapist for yourself, you need someone with you that can help you work your way through the point of inevitability (the break up of an unhealthy relationship) that every single other person here can see but can't do for you.
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Thought experiment: if you two didn't live together but everything else was the same (no sex, no marriage path, etc.), would you still be in this relationship? Would she? Would you both drive across town to spend time together and drive home by yourselves several times a week for seven years with no progress on what's important to you? Would you stay exclusive or would you both continue to see other people?
In a way, it seems that living together has short-circuited this relationship more than anything else. When I was dating, I never wanted to move in with a guy because I knew it would be so hard (emotionally and logistically) to move out. Not living together gives you the clarity and maneuvering room to make good choices early on.
I should ask her. We've lived together quite a while and I think just the day to day existance has overridden our ideas that the other person will feel the same without talking about things.
Even this morning she mentioned that she never felt I was committed to the future-just the present.
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Thought experiment: if you two didn't live together but everything else was the same (no sex, no marriage path, etc.), would you still be in this relationship? Would she? Would you both drive across town to spend time together and drive home by yourselves several times a week for seven years with no progress on what's important to you? Would you stay exclusive or would you both continue to see other people?
In a way, it seems that living together has short-circuited this relationship more than anything else. When I was dating, I never wanted to move in with a guy because I knew it would be so hard (emotionally and logistically) to move out. Not living together gives you the clarity and maneuvering room to make good choices early on.
This. 100% this.
When you choose not to live with each other before marriage (notice I didn't say not sleep together) you get to a point where you both say "this is silly, we have two places yet we're always together" or "I hate going home and being without you". You realize that you need to fix this by getting married and merge your whole life to one. Or maybe you don't sleep together before marriage because of your beliefs, then you usually want to sleep together so bad you hurry up and figure out how to get married and merge your whole life together.
Or you date and realize that you are actually pretty happy without that person or that you want to see what else is out there or your just not sure (which means you don't really want to be with that person). You breakup and move on.
You've merged everything together without the full commitment, and without sex and now you can't figure out how to unwind it. So your stuck trying to work on something that isn't going to work because unwinding it is hard.
No relationship in your twenties should require this much work.
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I guess we have just continued on it being on different pages. I feel like a trial period apart isn't helping though. We need to decide to seperate or pursue sex positive consoling/some kind of serious therapy.
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We don’t need to decide anything. You need to grow a set and breakup.
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We don’t need to decide anything. You need to grow a set and breakup.
If it were that easy for OP he would have done so pages ago. Although he is meticulous in replying to comments he has totally ignored my previous post suggesting in part that his ex/roommate is gaslighting him, which makes me think that there is some level of abuse going on here, at least emotionally, which he is unable or unwilling to acknowledge. If I'm right, saying he needs to grow a set, which is the right answer if he is not under some sort of abuse, probably isn't going to work.
We don't know much about OP's ex/roommate: OP has been with this woman since she was a teenager, she works in early years childcare and doesn't earn much, and she lives rent free in his house and his head. I suspect that she probably presents herself to the world as a sweet young woman. That does not prevent her from being deviously and selfishly manipulative of others, but it does make it harder for others to recognise that fact and act on it.
I hope OP takes up the suggestion of an individual counsellor for himself alone, and that he minimises contact with his ex/roommate in the meantime.
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Thought experiment: if you two didn't live together but everything else was the same (no sex, no marriage path, etc.), would you still be in this relationship? Would she? Would you both drive across town to spend time together and drive home by yourselves several times a week for seven years with no progress on what's important to you? Would you stay exclusive or would you both continue to see other people?
In a way, it seems that living together has short-circuited this relationship more than anything else. When I was dating, I never wanted to move in with a guy because I knew it would be so hard (emotionally and logistically) to move out. Not living together gives you the clarity and maneuvering room to make good choices early on.
^^^This. DD and S-i-L were taking turns traveling between cities on weekends, to see each other. After several months they both knew that they were committed to each other and made plans for one to move to the other's city.
S-i-L once told me that it was a really good way to test how strong the commitment was - if either had found reasons to miss a weekend, on a consistent basis, they would have known the relationship wasn't strong enough to develop any further.
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Sorry was trying to read and respond on my phone the past few days so it's been a bit trickier (it lags quite a bit in the input realm for whatever reason).
We spoke last night (one of the dogs is sick so I wanted her to come check on him in the morning). I basically gently restated we want different things and neither of us is going to be happy unless weget what we perceive we want. She's staying at her dads still and thinks we should spend this time apart at least.
She did say if we do break up I need to understand it's not like our friends (x, y-they broke up for 3 years in college and ended up married afterward). She did say it's not engagement/marriage but a commitment to working towards those when I asked her to clarify what she meant by the commitment to the future. She's hoping I can decide on my own if I do want to have children or pursue marriage at some point in my life and that this break will let me better decide these things. I also asked her how she wanted to work on things as the only ideas I had outside of one of us making a hard compromise is individual counseling?
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That it won't be like your friends and getting back together? That's good. You need the space to grow into the person you are becoming. You need 6 months minimum of no contact with her. Not socially, not on the phone, not texting/Instagram/Snapchat/etc.
I used a similar line on an ex. Told him that I wouldn't do the boomerang thing and done was done. It was as manipulative then as it is now. It's testing your resolve. Thank goodness my ex still wanted to break it off. He married the next girl he dated and now has kids.
Being alone was scary and more than once I worried that I'd end up alone with 20 cats. But I grew over the years to be proud of the person I am today. I dated enough that when I met my husband, it felt right. He's the type of person that I could grow with. He was similarly lukewarm to meh on the idea of kids.
This thread has made me so grateful that the original ex broke it off with me. I never would have been strong enough.
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This thread has made me so grateful ....
I find reading this thread to be very therapeutic.
I was in a relationship similar to OP, some differences of course, and I agonized for much longer than I ever should have about ending it. Finally I did, but with a weird combination of emotions. Reading this thread helps me see my prior relationship in the light that I could never see it in at the time.
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Ahh...she's into the phase of moving the goal posts.
Watch out for that.
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Ahh...she's into the phase of moving the goal posts.
Watch out for that.
I'm keeping them defined. I want to know exactly how she wants to work on it from her perspective if we do try to. I've explained how we can't work on intimacy without her standards and if her standard of "future commitment" is only engagement/marriage I can not work on that. I'm being as realistic as possible when I tell her we both want something different-it's not a matter of if we can love eachother more or such at this point which limits our plausible actions to move forward without inducing more pressure/compromises.
I'm not interested in other people and that's why it's weird. Like I know if you and someone else don't share and can't compromise on large goals and standards you shouldn't stay together-but there's this weird feeling of staying and being is easier than leaving because of the comfort. I can't imagine feeling ok with her marrying someone else and missing out on the things we like about eachother-but it's also not something I can lock myself into feeling is ok between us right now.
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Ahh...she's into the phase of moving the goal posts.
Watch out for that.
I'm keeping them defined. I want to know exactly how she wants to work on it from her perspective if we do try to. I've explained how we can't work on intimacy without her standards and if her standard of "future commitment" is only engagement/marriage I can not work on that. I'm being as realistic as possible when I tell her we both want something different-it's not a matter of if we can love eachother more or such at this point which limits our plausible actions to move forward without inducing more pressure/compromises.
I'm not interested in other people and that's why it's weird. Like I know if you and someone else don't share and can't compromise on large goals and standards you shouldn't stay together-but there's this weird feeling of staying and being is easier than leaving because of the comfort. I can't imagine feeling ok with her marrying someone else and missing out on the things we like about eachother-but it's also not something I can lock myself into feeling is ok between us right now.
No you aren't.
Weeks ago she was demanding and expecting a ring, now she's saying that she's okay without the ring as long as you are working "towards" the ring??
That's moving the goal posts. She's accepting that you rejected her first ultimatum and is now changing her negotiating tactic.
Make no mistake though, she hasn't dropper her eye from the prize and she will stay just as fixated on getting engaged no matter what "compromises" she agrees to.
She will not stop pushing you until you propose, she'll just find new and creative ways to try and convince you.
She thinks she needs this. She's just smart enough to know that she needs to back off the direct demand a little for now because it's not getting her the outcome that she's so pathologically fixated on.
If she thought she could do something to get you to propose right now, she would do it. She's not okay not getting engaged right now, she's just saying what she has to because she overplayed her first hand.
As for you, of course staying feels easier. Change always feels harder even if that change is for the better. Inertia is a powerful force.
Of course you don't want to lose what you enjoy about being with her. It would be crazy not to.
Of course you aren't focused on other people, because this isn't about other people. That just makes sense.
Of course it hurts to imagine her marrying someone else, she's been your life partner for a very very long time, your ENTIRE adult life basically.
It would be really weird if leaving her was easy.
...but everything worth doing is hard, and often the right thing to do doesn't feel very right at all.
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Was your sex life together (before you cheated) good for both of you? Or was she going through the motions? Infidelity doesn't usually occur if your needs are being met and you are committed to your relationship.
It's inconceivable to me that a young, healthy male would spend 6 years abstaining in order to atone for his sin. It appears that you are still being punished for the infidelity and that you will never be forgiven or fully trusted again.
Once trust is lost, it's really hard to bring it back. If she can't trust you after 6 years of abstinence, I don't see how engagement or marriage is going to magically fix everything.
If she is serious about working on the relationship, she's the one who needs to do the work to determine if there is a physical or emotional reason that she has no sex drive. Until then, your relationship is at an impasse because you want fundamentally different things - and one person will be forced to give in completely for the relationship to continue.
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Ahh...she's into the phase of moving the goal posts.
Watch out for that.
I'm not interested in other people and that's why it's weird. Like I know if you and someone else don't share and can't compromise on large goals and standards you shouldn't stay together-but there's this weird feeling of staying and being is easier than leaving because of the comfort. I can't imagine feeling ok with her marrying someone else and missing out on the things we like about eachother-but it's also not something I can lock myself into feeling is ok between us right now.
It sounds like you’ve been in an unhealthy codependent relationship for these 7 years. You can’t expect to suddenly be interested in other people, or to even know what a healthy relationship looks like. You haven’t left your first relationship yet!
I’m not sure why you’re expecting everything to happen all at once. First you have to go through the breakup, then the healing and being alone and recovering / rediscovering your needs and wants. This all takes time! Then maybe you’ll meet the love of your life or maybe it will take a couple of tries. You won’t know until you get there. But you have to take one step at a time before the next step can unfold. Step one is to go through the breakup. There’s no other solution here since you are at an impasse and are clearly incompatible. I know how hard it is but all you are currently doing is kicking the can down the road.
Maybe because you both are kids of divorced parents you see breakups as giving up. But they’re not. When you’re in a bad relationship, it’s the opposite of giving up. Struggling through an impasse is not a valiant show of love - the valiant, difficult, most healthy thing to do is break up and move on.
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Of course it feels easier and more comfortable to stay. Given where we are posting, I think money can be an apt comparison. It's easier and more comfortable for someone to keep spending 98% (or 105%) of their income. It's easier to keep getting Starbucks every morning and to keep driving a million millions in a giant SUV and to spend $1000 on grocery delivery very month. It's so much easier. But I'm assuming you know that this doesn't mean the decision to keep living like that is a better one, "Better" in any way other than easy and comfortable. Your relationship is the same. It's easier to stay because there's nothing horrific about it. But that is a depressingly low bar for you (and for her). It's clearly not working. It's had seven years to work. At one point, it was broken enough that you even cheated on her. (I'm not saying that no relationship can recover from cheating. But in the greater context here, it's yet another sign that this relationship with this person just isn't enough for you.)
And I do think she's manipulating you. You can't see if because you care for her and have generally positive feelings toward her, and because you feel guilty for considering something that will make her sad and disappointed. But the moving of the goal posts (which she absolutely has done, even though now you try to explain that she hasn't--it was "ring" and when that didn't work it was "moving toward a ring"), the guilting you that you haven't tried everything (what exactly would be "everything" or "enough" in her book? Can she even define that? I suspect the real answer is that nothing will be enough unless and until it leads to you walking down the altar. There is no scenario where she is going to feel you tried hard enough if the final outcome isn't exactly what SHE wants.) There's the withholding of sex, which, the more you post about her, starts to seem like a manipulation tactic (one that is failing, so I wouldn't be surprised if she caves soon when she realizes she needs a new approach).
So it's time to do the equivalent of cutting the grocery bill and downgrading the car. Make the uncomfortable choice that is none the less the right choice. Because you are in a hair-on-fire-emergency, my friend.
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And I do think she's manipulating you. You can't see if because you care for her and have generally positive feelings toward her, and because you feel guilty for considering something that will make her sad and disappointed. But the moving of the goal posts (which she absolutely has done, even though now you try to explain that she hasn't--it was "ring" and when that didn't work it was "moving toward a ring"), the guilting you that you haven't tried everything (what exactly would be "everything" or "enough" in her book? Can she even define that? I suspect the real answer is that nothing will be enough unless and until it leads to you walking down the altar. There is no scenario where she is going to feel you tried hard enough if the final outcome isn't exactly what SHE wants.) There's the withholding of sex, which, the more you post about her, starts to seem like a manipulation tactic (one that is failing, so I wouldn't be surprised if she caves soon when she realizes she needs a new approach).
I agree. It's possible that as a last-ditch effort, if and when she realizes that nothing else will work, she'll have sex with OP and then try to make him feel so guilty that he'll propose because now he feels obligated since she did it "for him." Sex would become a quid pro quo: I have sex with you, you give me the ring. Especially because she has made it abundantly clear through this whole thing that she is kind of holding sex out as a reward to him for proposing (even if she hasn't said it in those words). She's tied sex and engagement together so tightly that this final slight of hand might be the last card she is keeping in her pocket: instead of ring gives you sex, now it's sex gives me ring.
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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.
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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.
I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.
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I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such.
But you both already have a pretty clear idea of what kind of relationship you want. Neither of you seem confused about it; that's not the issue. The issue is you both need something the other person is unable to give, which is why you're incompatible.
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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.
I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.
Right and I want to hear it out so I can explain I can't "try harder" be be engaged. She's is particular that I do some self searching in if I want marraige or kids ever at least. The best I've come up with is I'm not opposed to either but financially both are scary and I value financial stability. Marraige because divorce happens and kids because they cost a shit ton.
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https://www.huffpost.com/entry/advice-column-how-to-love-someone-and-not-see-a-future_b_591c8582e4b07617ae4cb898?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADO7RNHl8fKDum8q86pd5vLuJOoV85PJ2pCu57QpnKpLiRSTlxkWwrJPcmRNC5ARzoYpl2We85GyE4EibMJ8Mh0Z3TYfDzpox9RsWynRuLLqYwUcFTbVEOQwoSanbfnvL6W_IYRCaYMyiKsS71yPzW9biaBiDb2eBXb1sNb7skXX
https://www.bustle.com/articles/174764-what-should-you-do-if-your-partner-doesnt-want-to-get-married-and-you-do
these 2 articles actually have decent information
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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.
I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.
If she was serious about "trying more" then she could offer to have sex with you ever day for the next month. That would be her actually trying something, rather than demanding that you do all of the trying while she sits back and gloats.
I think you're fucked, dude. I'm sorry that you're trapped in a bad relationship. Most of us have been there at some point in our lives and there's just no easy way out of it. So we all take the hard way, because it's the only way.
But, having been through this particular dark tunnel before, I can promise you that you will be infinitely happier when you come out the far side. One day, you will look back on this situation and just shake your head in disbelief that you ever even considered staying in such a toxic and unhealthy situation. It will be obvious to you that you're both better off with other people, and you will be able to have a bittersweet laugh over how foolishly naive you were. At least, that's been my experience looking back from your future.
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Often, love is not enough particularly in long term relationships where there are some fundamental differences.
The good news is that it's actually easy to find love. I've been in "true love" at least 3 times in my life. We're hard wired to find love.
So if you're afraid of loss (ie, "Oh no I'm going to lose someone I love"), that's true, you are. But the good news is that you will definitely find love again, and next time you'll know better how to keep the relationship healthy from the beginning.
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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.
I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.
Right and I want to hear it out so I can explain I can't "try harder" be be engaged. She's is particular that I do some self searching in if I want marraige or kids ever at least. The best I've come up with is I'm not opposed to either but financially both are scary and I value financial stability. Marraige because divorce happens and kids because they cost a shit ton.
If you want arguments against having kids then try this link to the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement - http://www.vhemt.org/. But the argument isn't really about whether you want to get married or to have kids, and that's not what you have to argue here, it's the much more specific issue that you don't want to get married to her or have kids with her - which doesn't need any reasons at all other than that's not what you want.
I would strongly counsel against your getting into any more debates with this person - nothing you can now say is either going to change her mind or stop her from trying to get you to change yours. You've done nothing but "hear her out" all the time this thread has been going, to exactly nil progress - because progress is not possible. Opening another discussion with her just gives her further opportunities to work on getting you to change your mind, to the detriment of both of you - because giving her all these opportunities to manipulate your feelings is as bad for her as it is for you.
Edited to add: "No" is a complete sentence. Please practice saying it and then put it into practice.
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Yeah it's pretty telling that the only things we've really heard from her are 1) your needs aren't as important as her needs, 2) if you don't give her what she wants unconditionally, you won't have "tried" everything and the failure of the relationship will be your fault, and 3) you will always owe her a guilt-debt because of a teenage infidelity that happened 7 years ago.
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One thing I do think would be helpful, is getting one or two individual counseling sessions in during this time, and hopefully continue them.
I do think it is a sign of your subconscious, that you don't like the idea of marriage and/or kids. Sure there are many people including women who have known their whole life that they didn't want kids, and lived that way.
But in your case I think it is inner voice talking to you.
No one is ever 100% ready to get married (because it is such a big decision). The same thing about kids, even if you WANT kids it is still a scary thing. However despite that my marriage ended badly, when we got to that point in our relationship where the next natural step was getting married, , my ex was psyched! He was the one calming me down when we were holding hands together in front of the pastor, with silly grins on our faces. In turn, sure we were nervous, but we were both EXCITED at the prospect of having a kid together. It was like we were embarking on a big adventure. So if neither of those things sparks some kind of flame within your heart when you think of her, that's a sign.
Her pushing you on this is not fair. The issue is you both went 7 years without really communicating what your wants and needs and dealbreakers are. It's BOTH of your fault that that happened. Now that you are talking about it, even went to sessions, you have uncovered some basic incompatibility/deal breakers between the two of you. That is NEITHER of your faults, it just is. It is also clear that neither of you are willing to bend on your deal breakers. And that's OK. But more conversations or "working" on it, is not going to change that. She should understand that and she is deliberately refusing to.
Breaking up will be hard. It will hurt. I don't agree this is an "abusive" situation though it could turn into that if you stay in it. Despite everything you both have a lot of history and lives shared together that will need to be unwound. So it will be hard, even if it is the right thing to do. Her trying to force it will only make you lose respect for her, yourself, or both.
If she is the decent person you think she is, while she may cry and hate you now, years from now she will totally understand. But not while you are "in the thick of it".
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One thing I do think would be helpful, is getting one or two individual counseling sessions in during this time, and hopefully continue them.
I do think it is a sign of your subconscious, that you don't like the idea of marriage and/or kids. Sure there are many people including women who have known their whole life that they didn't want kids, and lived that way.
But in your case I think it is inner voice talking to you.
No one is ever 100% ready to get married (because it is such a big decision). The same thing about kids, even if you WANT kids it is still a scary thing. However despite that my marriage ended badly, when we got to that point in our relationship where the next natural step was getting married, , my ex was psyched! He was the one calming me down when we were holding hands together in front of the pastor, with silly grins on our faces. In turn, sure we were nervous, but we were both EXCITED at the prospect of having a kid together. It was like we were embarking on a big adventure we were doing together. So if neither of those things sparks some kind of flame within your heart when you think of her, that's a sign.
Her pushing you on this is not fair. The issue is you went 7 years without really communicating what your wants and needs and dealbreakers are. It's BOTH of your fault that that happened. Now that you are talking about it, even went to sessions, you have uncovered some basic incompatibility/deal breakers between the two of you. That is NEITHER of your faults, it just is. It is also clear that neither of you are willing to bend on your deal breakers. And that's OK. But more conversations or "working" on it, is not going to change that. She should understand that and she is deliberately refusing to.
Breaking up will be hard. It will hurt. I don't agree this is an "abusive" situation though it could turn into that if you stay in it. Despite everything you both have a lot of history and lives shared together that will need to be unwound. So it will be hard, even if it is the right thing to do. Her trying to force it will only make you lose respect for her, or yourself, or both.
If she is the decent person you think she is, while she may cry and hate you now, years from now she will totally understand. But not while you are "in the thick of it".
I'm definitely going to tell her I think we should both go to an individual counselor. I don't think time apart is going to change our fundamental values and if she doesn't then what does she expect exactly will change? I don't know how keen she'd be based on our relationship conseling results but if i paid for it she'd probably go.
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I've been thinking more and more about the "we need to try more" and I want her opinion on trying more. I told her we can't love eachother more because it's just not a question of that. I think the only thing we can do as far as trying is see individual counselors and decide what we both want and such. I asked her how she would like to work on it with both our views in the open and it's really not a set variable. Like going on dates hoping the other will change the mind and such-i don't think that's what either of us think will change things.
I do think that if you push her on it, she probably won't have an answer. Because you are at an impasse. My guess is if she had to articulate it, her idea of "trying more" is probably you trying harder to want to be engaged to her.
Right and I want to hear it out so I can explain I can't "try harder" be be engaged. She's is particular that I do some self searching in if I want marraige or kids ever at least. The best I've come up with is I'm not opposed to either but financially both are scary and I value financial stability. Marraige because divorce happens and kids because they cost a shit ton.
If you want arguments against having kids then try this link to the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement - http://www.vhemt.org/. But the argument isn't really about whether you want to get married or to have kids, and that's not what you have to argue here, it's the much more specific issue that you don't want to get married to her or have kids with her - which doesn't need any reasons at all other than that's not what you want.
I would strongly counsel against your getting into any more debates with this person - nothing you can now say is either going to change her mind or stop her from trying to get you to change yours. You've done nothing but "hear her out" all the time this thread has been going, to exactly nil progress - because progress is not possible. Opening another discussion with her just gives her further opportunities to work on getting you to change your mind, to the detriment of both of you - because giving her all these opportunities to manipulate your feelings is as bad for her as it is for you.
Edited to add: "No" is a complete sentence. Please practice saying it and then put it into practice.
Yeah I think we're over debating as we see each other side to some degree. I don't know if I want to get married or have kids with anyone-if it were someone it would be her but as I said-financially both of those are terrifying and I value my ability to take care of myself/am focused on my career/business development. She sees that as "i don't want a future with her because if I did it wouldn't matter what else we did in the meantime"
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I think that you do know what you want: you want to be with someone who wants to be with you sexually. She is trying to turn the responsibility for that back onto you by behaving in a way that might change her. She really doesn't seem very concerned about giving you what you want/need in this relationship--she continues to focus it back on her own wants/needs. It is perfectly valid for her not to change herself, but then you reach the very definition of incompatibility.
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At this point I understand why our values don't work. I can suggest we go to individual counseling while we're apart but that's going to be the only way we can articulate and understand our own wants better. I know that we're 99.99% breaking up and it sucks.
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Hey I just want to say even though everybody is still mostly giving you a hard time because we can easily see how bad this relationship, you have done quite a bit of soul searching relatively quickly after 7 years of avoidance. Even to see you say that you 99% know you will break up is a big leap from where you were when you started this thread. Kudos.
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I think that you do know what you want: you want to be with someone who wants to be with you sexually. She is trying to turn the responsibility for that back onto you by behaving in a way that might change her. She really doesn't seem very concerned about giving you what you want/need in this relationship--she continues to focus it back on her own wants/needs. It is perfectly valid for her not to change herself, but then you reach the very definition of incompatibility.
It really is funny though-with how much I want that in a relationship or have put value on-I don't really want to talk to girls/find a partner in that way. I know some people are aching to get out of relationships because they've just disconnected for so long that it seems the logical step to move to the next but I guess I don't operate like that. This has shown me how much sex can disconnect an aspect of a relationship/how it can be misinterpreted or mismatched in multiple ways and it's just crazy how much I don't get about human behaviors or emotions.
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Hey I just want to say even though everybody is still mostly giving you a hard time because we can easily see how bad this relationship, you have done quite a bit of soul searching relatively quickly after 7 years of avoidance. Even to see you say that you 99% know you will break up is a big leap from where you were when you started this thread. Kudos.
I understand that everyone has advice. Whether or not it's advice I want to hear or not isn't relevent because I obviously wanted to hear all sorts of opinions by approaching a public forum. No one here has seen or experienced my relationship from any other perspective than what I've conveyed and that's what I was looking for.
I know it has to happen and why; I don't want it to happen. She's going to be more hurt than I will; I can already tell based on how much more she had thought forwards and planned a future around and that sucks.
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Hey I just want to say even though everybody is still mostly giving you a hard time because we can easily see how bad this relationship, you have done quite a bit of soul searching relatively quickly after 7 years of avoidance. Even to see you say that you 99% know you will break up is a big leap from where you were when you started this thread. Kudos.
+10000
Also, completely normal that you don't feel eager or even ready to jump back into dating. That will come in time.
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Why don't you just pay for your own councelling session. She already knows what she wants and you are already paying so much for her. Don't waste your money on it.
She as a woman is approaching the age at which she best can get pregnant and produce healthy babies. She wants a husband to produce that, within a year or maybe two and who will maintain her financially, hencevthe marriage/commitment. I don't think she would change her mind about that in a councelling session.
It still sounds to me that you want her to break up, instead of you doing it yourself. But for her, there are good incentives for staying together: she gets financial help, you are apparently good husband material and you accept her low libido, or at least have done so for 7 years. She also wouldn't have to start over, looking for a new husband candidate.
My advice is that you try to live apart for half a year or so. And you in your housem she somewhere else. Also, if you decide to send her away from your house, don't finance her new place. She has parents, she won't be living on the street.
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Do NOT pay for her counseling. Part of "doing everything to see if we can work this out" is her finding, paying, and heeding her own counselor/advisor/clergy/etc. To pay for her counseling would be to take one step back towards the quicksand of enmeshment.
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Do NOT pay for her counseling. Part of "doing everything to see if we can work this out" is her finding, paying, and heeding her own counselor/advisor/clergy/etc. To pay for her counseling would be to take one step back towards the quicksand of enmeshment.
I can suggest she goes at least. I intend on going.
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Why don't you just pay for your own councelling session. She already knows what she wants and you are already paying so much for her. Don't waste your money on it.
She as a woman is approaching the age at which she best can get pregnant and produce healthy babies. She wants a husband to produce that, within a year or maybe two and who will maintain her financially, hencevthe marriage/commitment. I don't think she would change her mind about that in a councelling session.
It still sounds to me that you want her to break up, instead of you doing it yourself. But for her, there are good incentives for staying together: she gets financial help, you are apparently good husband material and you accept her low libido, or at least have done so for 7 years. She also wouldn't have to start over, looking for a new husband candidate.
My advice is that you try to live apart for half a year or so. And you in your housem she somewhere else. Also, if you decide to send her away from your house, don't finance her new place. She has parents, she won't be living on the street.
I think that individual sessions would benefit us both. Obviously, we have some codependency tendencies and ability to weather all sorts of fallacies. I think to her a breakup means that's it at this point. I brought up the example of some of our friends who had broken up for a few years in college and did get back together/are now married and she said that isn't us-If we break up I can't relearn to feel all in and everything.
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Why don't you just pay for your own councelling session. She already knows what she wants and you are already paying so much for her. Don't waste your money on it.
She as a woman is approaching the age at which she best can get pregnant and produce healthy babies. She wants a husband to produce that, within a year or maybe two and who will maintain her financially, hencevthe marriage/commitment. I don't think she would change her mind about that in a councelling session.
It still sounds to me that you want her to break up, instead of you doing it yourself. But for her, there are good incentives for staying together: she gets financial help, you are apparently good husband material and you accept her low libido, or at least have done so for 7 years. She also wouldn't have to start over, looking for a new husband candidate.
My advice is that you try to live apart for half a year or so. And you in your housem she somewhere else. Also, if you decide to send her away from your house, don't finance her new place. She has parents, she won't be living on the street.
I think that individual sessions would benefit us both. Obviously, we have some codependency tendencies and ability to weather all sorts of fallacies. I think to her a breakup means that's it at this point. I brought up the example of some of our friends who had broken up for a few years in college and did get back together/are now married and she said that isn't us-If we break up I can't relearn to feel all in and everything.
Please go to individual counseling. As far as her, if she wants individual counseling, that is up to her to decide, seek out and pay for. Nothing to do with you.
While my ex and I were breaking up I chose to go to individual counseling. Much later on, he did as well for a period of time. But it was something we each did on our own and we did not involve the other person in it.
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I think that you do know what you want: you want to be with someone who wants to be with you sexually. She is trying to turn the responsibility for that back onto you by behaving in a way that might change her. She really doesn't seem very concerned about giving you what you want/need in this relationship--she continues to focus it back on her own wants/needs. It is perfectly valid for her not to change herself, but then you reach the very definition of incompatibility.
It really is funny though-with how much I want that in a relationship or have put value on-I don't really want to talk to girls/find a partner in that way. I know some people are aching to get out of relationships because they've just disconnected for so long that it seems the logical step to move to the next but I guess I don't operate like that. This has shown me how much sex can disconnect an aspect of a relationship/how it can be misinterpreted or mismatched in multiple ways and it's just crazy how much I don't get about human behaviors or emotions.
It's 100% valid to expect it as a component to a relationship, though. It may not be the main thing you're looking for, but it's an important thing to most people. I don't have the strongest sex drive myself (though it's getting a lot stronger in my 40's), but it's really unfair to ask someone to abstain for years.
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@zoochadookdook, check out these quotes and who they're from.
I am not commited to the idea of marriage or have felt like I wanted kids yet.
At this point I understand why our values don't work... I know that we're 99.99% breaking up and it sucks.
I don't know if I want to get married or have kids with anyone... financially both of those are terrifying
I don't think time apart is going to change our fundamental values...
At this point I understand why our values don't work...
As a personal growth exercise, try to answer the question "Is this - these quotes above - how you really feel?"
Try to do it without saying ANYTHING about your not-fiancee. Juuuuust answer the question "Is this how YOU really feel?"
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Hey I just want to say even though everybody is still mostly giving you a hard time because we can easily see how bad this relationship, you have done quite a bit of soul searching relatively quickly after 7 years of avoidance. Even to see you say that you 99% know you will break up is a big leap from where you were when you started this thread. Kudos.
+10000
Also, completely normal that you don't feel eager or even ready to jump back into dating. That will come in time.
Agree with this. I was in a similar situation many moons ago. I finally found the voice and words to break up with the girl I was dating for the past 5 years. There was "nothing wrong" with the relationship, but we were not happy and had some deep core level incompatibility that we just refused to acknowledge. I moved away and went to grad school and put my mental energy into school, taking care of myself, and building skills for future work opportunities. I had been single for about a year and still wasn't looking for a new relationship when one just snuck up on me anyways (literally: The night I met my wife, a bunch of us from grad school were going out and I offered to give one of my classmates a ride. She asked me if I was sure if I was okay with that and I literally replied with "Yeah, it's no problem., It's not like I'm going to meet anyone tonight").
That year on my own focusing on myself and figuring out what I valued and wanted for my life was the greatest personal development I ever achieved. It was powerful and I wouldn't be who I am or where I am without it.
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@zoochadookdook, check out these quotes and who they're from.
I am not commited to the idea of marriage or have felt like I wanted kids yet.
At this point I understand why our values don't work... I know that we're 99.99% breaking up and it sucks.
I don't know if I want to get married or have kids with anyone... financially both of those are terrifying
I don't think time apart is going to change our fundamental values...
At this point I understand why our values don't work...
As a personal growth exercise, try to answer the question "Is this - these quotes above - how you really feel?" - WITHOUT saying ANYTHING about your not-fiancee. Juuuuust answer the question "Is this how YOU really feel?"
I mean i think it's how i feel?
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Excellent answer, my friend. As someone posted upthread, you are indeed shifting your mindset.
That really is how you feel. It's just hard to be certain while someone who desparately wants you to feel something different is constantly bullying, gaslighting, and manipulating you. Especially since you've never been in a real relationship before.
Since it's how you really feel, the only way to make anything work is to end the relationship.
PS. For what it's worth, I think you're going to have to kick her out of your house. My suggestion would be email her a note that says "(Not-fiancee name), I do not want to live with you any more. Please move out of my house by (date of one month from now)." Then post a copy on her bedroom door and take a photo. That's basically how evictions begin in some jurisdictions. You're probably going to have to be direct and instruct her to move out.
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Excellent answer, my friend. As someone posted upthread, you are indeed shifting your mindset.
That really is how you feel. It's just hard to be certain while someone who desparately wants you to feel something different is constantly bullying, gaslighting, and manipulating you. Especially since you've never been in a real relationship before.
Since it's how you really feel, the only way to make anything work is to end the relationship.
PS. For what it's worth, I think you're going to have to kick her out of your house. My suggestion would be email her a note that says "(Not-fiancee name), I do not want to live with you any more. Please move out of my house by (date of one month from now)." Then post a copy on her bedroom door and take a photo. That's basically how evictions begin in some jurisdictions. You're probably going to have to be direct and instruct her to move out.
Oh man i think that'd be like worst case scenario. She would accept a break up and move out. She's currently staying at her fathers by choice. If by some reason it actually came to that I could see that as an option but jeez.
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Also: Give her the dogs.
I know they're half yours. But trying to figure out some sort of shared custody arrangement is just going to prolong the agony and keep you in a weird limbo for much longer than you should be. And when you are in your next relationship (which will eventually happen, of course), your new girlfriend will likely not love that your ex has this ex-spouse-like situation that keeps you tied to her.
And also, since you know your soon-to-be-ex is going to have a harder time of all this than you will, it will be good for her to have the emotional support of having the dogs be hers. It's your parting gift to her.
She might resist this in some way -- because the dogs tie you together, and make it easier for her to keep manipulating you. For example, she might complain about the expense. Which I get, because pets cost money. So, cut her a check. A lump sum check. And be done with it. Every decision you make in this regard should have as its underlying reason "making a clean break."
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Also: Give her the dogs.
I know they're half yours. But trying to figure out some sort of shared custody arrangement is just going to prolong the agony and keep you in a weird limbo for much longer than you should be. And when you are in your next relationship (which will eventually happen, of course), your new girlfriend will likely not love that your ex has this ex-spouse-like situation that keeps you tied to her.
And also, since you know your soon-to-be-ex is going to have a harder time of all this than you will, it will be good for her to have the emotional support of having the dogs be hers. It's your parting gift to her.
She might resist this in some way -- because the dogs tie you together, and make it easier for her to keep manipulating you. For example, she might complain about the expense. Which I get, because pets cost money. So, cut her a check. A lump sum check. And be done with it. Every decision you make in this regard should have as its underlying reason "making a clean break."
I love those dogs. They're literally so freaking spoiled. We did mention that and I told her I'd let her have the dogs but she said she didn't want to keep them from me. From a ease of seperation factor I can understand it though. The issue is that the younger one is bonded to the older one and they're a breed that is super compulsive and emotional about their state.
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You two sound like you try to keep your individual position as Nice People by avoiding any decision that makes you sound or feel the Bad Person.
If she says she wants you to have the dogs, call her bluff. Say that's fine, but she still needs to move. You need to complete the breakup.
If she waffles about the dogs, simply say "Where the dogs go is up to you as long as they both go to the same person." If she passes the decision back to you, make the decision without further ado by "deciding" on whatever she last said (in this example, now you get them).
Whatever you do, she's going to push every emotional button to make it feel bad. You just need to go ahead anyway by making decisions and completing actions.
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I thought my ex was a super animal lover. But when he moved out he keeps living in places that don't allow pets. So other than briefly seeing them when he is dropping off, picking up kids, doesn't have anything to do with the pets anymore. I was surprised by that. Even if you love the dogs, it will be OK as long as they are treated well.
As far as giving ultimatums they are not necessarily manipulative. My ex gave me the dear Jane talk in early March, late Feb? that he didn't really feel the same about me (a couple years ago). Despite that he was not in a hurry to move out, which gave me false hope and us going back and forth. He also floated the idea of us living together as roomates to raise the kids, but otherwise be "autonomous". So while it was hard for me, I finally gave him the ultimatum to either re-commit to marriage, or move out. He moved out. I'm not saying every relationship needs an ultimatum to end it finally, it really depends on the situation, but for me since I was in limbo for so long, I needed to know and move on from there. In fact I should have done it sooner.
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Oh, @zoochadookdook, I feel for you. You are a good person in a hard situation trying to do the right thing without the complete toolset (perspective, maturity, experience). I agree with others that you have been making remarkable progress in your own head in sorting things out. I hope we aren’t coming across as too harsh because I think we are all developing a fondness for you and want to see the best outcome.
I’d love to have you go look at yourself in the mirror and repeat “I am a good person. My needs are legitimate.” any time you start wallowing in doubts.
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Oh, @zoochadookdook, I feel for you. You are a good person in a hard situation trying to do the right thing without the complete toolset (perspective, maturity, experience). I agree with others that you have been making remarkable progress in your own head in sorting things out. I hope we aren’t coming across as too harsh because I think we are all developing a fondness for you and want to see the best outcome.
I’d love to have you go look at yourself in the mirror and repeat “I am a good person. My needs are legitimate.” any time you start wallowing in doubts.
+1
You've shown excellent growth, resilience, and openness in the course of this thread. I am rooting for you. With all the qualities you have shown here (compassion, ability to learn from mistakes, empathy, thoughtfulness, patience) I have no doubt that once you come out the other side of this situation, you will be better for it.
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Agreed with anyone else.
As I said earlier in the thread, it may be a long thread, but for OP this has been a rapid fire paradigm shift over just a matter of weeks, after nearly a DECADE of sustained, celibate, non communication with this woman.
It's a lot, and it's a lot very fast.
OP, good on you for the work you are doing. Definitely get yourself a good solo therapist, there's going to be a lot to process.
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I guess she'll be at the house after work tonight so we'll see. It's a shift for both of us, like neither really payed attention to what the other really wanted because neither of us talked about it. Crazy.
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Excellent answer, my friend. As someone posted upthread, you are indeed shifting your mindset.
That really is how you feel. It's just hard to be certain while someone who desparately wants you to feel something different is constantly bullying, gaslighting, and manipulating you. Especially since you've never been in a real relationship before.
Since it's how you really feel, the only way to make anything work is to end the relationship.
PS. For what it's worth, I think you're going to have to kick her out of your house. My suggestion would be email her a note that says "(Not-fiancee name), I do not want to live with you any more. Please move out of my house by (date of one month from now)." Then post a copy on her bedroom door and take a photo. That's basically how evictions begin in some jurisdictions. You're probably going to have to be direct and instruct her to move out.
Oh man i think that'd be like worst case scenario. She would accept a break up and move out. She's currently staying at her fathers by choice. If by some reason it actually came to that I could see that as an option but jeez.
How would you present this break up?
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Hang in there. This is going to hurt, and it's probably better to be prepared for that, so that you don't call her in a few days or weeks, in a moment of weakness. Just know that eventually, you'll realized you gone an hour without thinking about her. And then it will be an afternoon, and then a day, and then a week. And eventually, you will get to the point where you only think about her occasionally and in a nostalgic way, and you'll realize it hasn't hurt at all in months. You *will* get to that point, so be prepared to remind yourself of that in the really tough times. And having a good friend on standby for the first few weeks, someone who knows what's happening and is prepared to be there for you, would be great if you can arrange that.
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Excellent answer, my friend. As someone posted upthread, you are indeed shifting your mindset.
That really is how you feel. It's just hard to be certain while someone who desparately wants you to feel something different is constantly bullying, gaslighting, and manipulating you. Especially since you've never been in a real relationship before.
Since it's how you really feel, the only way to make anything work is to end the relationship.
PS. For what it's worth, I think you're going to have to kick her out of your house. My suggestion would be email her a note that says "(Not-fiancee name), I do not want to live with you any more. Please move out of my house by (date of one month from now)." Then post a copy on her bedroom door and take a photo. That's basically how evictions begin in some jurisdictions. You're probably going to have to be direct and instruct her to move out.
Oh man i think that'd be like worst case scenario. She would accept a break up and move out. She's currently staying at her fathers by choice. If by some reason it actually came to that I could see that as an option but jeez.
How would you present this break up?
We talked a bit and figured that living one place than another for 2 weeks isn't really beneficial to either of us. We're going to stay living together right no. We set the date one month from yesterday-if we feel the same but I'm not on board with marriage/kids and such and can regain a spark by then we're separating. I'm seeing an individual counselor and said she should as well. Basically, we have a deadline and I'm just going to focus on work, life, going on a few dates with her and seeing where we're at in a month. We talked about stuff like who the dogs would go with and similar. She doesn't have room for a lot of the furniture but I'd buy whatever she didn't take. She would move in with one of her parents.
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Solid plan.
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Solid plan.
+1. Good luck.
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Please do not have sex with her during this period even if she offers. Which she may well do as it becomes clear separation is likely.
I'm even sure that's "all of it". I don't just want sex, I want the emotions to be reciprocated and vice versa-but I also want to focus on building a career and financial stability. Owning a home such on an entry-level income is stressful and until I'm financially comfortable I won't feel ready to think about caring for a wife/kids. Shoot I don't even know if I'll ever want kids. I could be in bed with J-LO/a billionaire and not be sure if I wanted kids.
And she's listened to these things. So I think she has heard the idea that she can't change my fundamentals.
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It's also possible that you will feel ready for marriage and kids in a few years once you meet the right person. I think many of us have not felt ready for commitment until we met the right person.
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It's also possible that you will feel ready for marriage and kids in a few years once you meet the right person. I think many of us have not felt ready for commitment until we met the right person.
Sure! I brought that up as well. I have no idea what I'll feel towards it 1-5-10-20 years from now.
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Good. I do know for myself it was extremely hard (understatement!) at the point when ex said he didn't feel the same, to get to the point for me of making the decision, if he can't commit, we need to separate (2 1/2 months?). You really are doing much better than I was at that time.
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You're about a week out from your 1-month deadline. How are things going?
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Things have been fine; I mean I got to a consouler now and she's pretty cool. Still haven't determined what I want from life; I think a lot of it has to do with me focusing so much on this monotonous office job/side hustles in my spare time because I have this weird overwhelming belief that If I am financially set I can afford to quit the job and do things I want. Another thing we've touched on is it's hard for me to self focus when I'm focused on taking care of the gf/her feelings (example-i'd like to travel to thailand and train for a month but because I have a house, job to pay for said house and gf who it wouldn't be fair to leave for a month just for a hobby; my mind won't let me even consider such a thing as practical and all that energy goes into chasing the buck).
We've been civil all month. She's been positive and upbeat; and has focused on finding a good job as her nanny one of 4 years is coming to a close. We haven't really got into it anymore as it really was just a circular argument. I think tonight I'll bring up it has been a month and hey; still not sure if I want kids. I think a piece of the kids/mairraige is also related to me not feeling free enough to focus on self wants subconciously. Like there's things I won't do/ignore/not consider due to being in a relationship (just like going with friends to a seminar on a sunday because that's our only day together). It's not neccisarily a bad thing but it's something I can't currently just ignore. Guess we'll see what we talk about tonight; I did get forms from the university if she wants to attend couples/individual consouling as that's about the only thing I can think of to move us either way.
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Thanks for the update, and I'm glad you've got a cool counsellor.
So there are things you would enjoy that you've given up on because of your roommate (travelled to Thailand for your hobby, gone to the Sunday seminar, self-focus on your future) and you've carried on doing things you don't enjoy because of her (house and job and side hustles and giving up your free time to take care of her feelings).
A good relationship is about mutual support and achieving more together than separately. All I'm seeing for you in this situation is things you are giving up on.
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Let us know how the talk tonight goes. It's definitely valid to want to do your own thing, and it's important to maintain friendships outside of relationships. Early retirement isn't all or nothing.. you still have to create a good life while you save. If something is dream, you shouldnt block it out, you should find ways to achieve it.
Its not clear from your post though.. have you been using this month to talk about the issues, or have you just let everything be swept under the rug again and settled into old routines? Is she off birth control yet? Had that changed her libido?
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Side issue - do you really want the house? Do you love having a house and all that goes with it, or is it something that has turned into an obligation without much joy? It sounds like the house is part of what is tying you down to your present life. You work like mad, you can't travel. Your house also provides living space for your GF, which affects your relationship. (Um, why can't she look after the house while you are in Thailand?).
I ask this because I am going back to being a renter after 40 years of house ownership, and it is so freeing!!!! I can travel. Society tells us that at some point we should become home owners, but this site is all about examining the social norms and seeing if they are truly appropriate for us.
Might be something to discuss with your counselor?
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Honestly, if I was with someone who was having a lot of doubts about the relationship, barriers to committing, or wanting to do things before settling down, I would want that person to resolve them or get them out of their system before committing, versus pushing them down and then having a mid life or earlier crisis that busts everything up.
However I'm not sure it is right putting this all on your girlfriend. If you want to start a hobby, or go to Thailand, how is she stopping you? Question your assumptions. Who is stopping you from selling your house if for example, it doesn't align with your goals? Who is stopping you from working a different or more fulfilling job?
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However I'm not sure it is right putting this all on your girlfriend. If you want to start a hobby, or go to Thailand, how is she stopping you? Question your assumptions. Who is stopping you from selling your house if for example, it doesn't align with your goals? Who is stopping you from working a different or more fulfilling job?
Wow. Great points, partgypsy (or partygypsy, as I have always seen you). Really great points.
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In a relationship there should be room for people to spend time on a hobby, including joining a weekend seminar. I have been away on such seminars several times. My DH has been on a two week vacation to NZ without me, after I suggested/agreed with it. A relationship shouldn't be a prison.
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Honestly, if I was with someone who was having a lot of doubts about the relationship, barriers to committing, or wanting to do things before settling down, I would want that person to resolve them or get them out of their system before committing, versus pushing them down and then having a mid life or earlier crisis that busts everything up.
However I'm not sure it is right putting this all on your girlfriend. If you want to start a hobby, or go to Thailand, how is she stopping you? Question your assumptions. Who is stopping you from selling your house if for example, it doesn't align with your goals? Who is stopping you from working a different or more fulfilling job?
Sure it's not "her fault"; I don't think that's fair to say-rather I won't do or pursue these things because they aren't practical with commitment to another person in my mind. They seem selffish and uncaring (we haven't been away from eachother for over a week in most of the relationship). What prevents me from selling the house? She loves it. It is somewhere I have to stay. It does give me motivation to work. I mean I would sell it and take the profit towards a flip ideally but when someone else is involved that affects your decision/weighs your choices a bit.
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Let us know how the talk tonight goes. It's definitely valid to want to do your own thing, and it's important to maintain friendships outside of relationships. Early retirement isn't all or nothing.. you still have to create a good life while you save. If something is dream, you shouldnt block it out, you should find ways to achieve it.
Its not clear from your post though.. have you been using this month to talk about the issues, or have you just let everything be swept under the rug again and settled into old routines? Is she off birth control yet? Had that changed her libido?
I can tell she's tried to do things to my benefit (i.e buying a mirror for the hallway when i've always wanted one there) and such-but we really haven't talked about the gist of it all month. The issue we have is it's just a circle of "this is how I feel and this is how I feel". We both feel like talking about it more and more is not benifiting us as we never come to a conclusion. At some point it's just like "figured out if you want to get married and have kids yet" and I'm just like...nope
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At this point I recommend watching "The Lobster", it's free, on Netflix. I can't help thinking of it every time I read this thread.
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I won't do or pursue these things because they aren't practical with commitment to another person in my mind. They seem selffish and uncaring (we haven't been away from eachother for over a week in most of the relationship). What prevents me from selling the house? She loves it. It is somewhere I have to stay.
Dude...
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Have you discussed the possibility of codependency with your counselor? (If it's a problem, and you identify it, you can work on it.)
Signs of codependency include:
Having difficulty making decisions in a relationship
Having difficulty identifying your feelings
Having difficulty communicating in a relationship
Valuing the approval of others more than valuing yourself
Lacking trust in yourself and having poor self-esteem
Having fears of abandonment or an obsessive need for approval
Having an unhealthy dependence on relationships, even at your own cost
Having an exaggerated sense of responsibility for the actions of others
https://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/do-you-have-a-codependent-personality.aspx
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A good relationship is about mutual support and achieving more together than separately. All I'm seeing for you in this situation is things you are giving up on.
This is wisdom bingo in more ways than one.
Part of the reason I love my wife so much is that she supports and enables my crazy adventures. She's what makes it possible for me to do stuff. She adds to my life, because she wants me to be happy and be the best version of myself. Sure, sometimes there are sacrifices made and sometimes I have to suck it up and do all of the hard work while she's the one to go on crazy adventures, but that's all part of the deal. We do that for each other, happily, because that's what mutual support looks like.
What you have sounds a lot more like unrequited dependency. She needs you a lot more than you need her. You're making a bunch of sacrifices in order for her to get what she wants, and she's doing nothing for you.
I'd drop her like a bad habit, because that's what she is.
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At some point it's just like "figured out if you want to get married and have kids yet" and I'm just like...nope
That gives an obvious path forward. Or paths, I should say.
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You've met your one month deadline. If you let this one slip, you are more likely to let the next, and the next slip. Nothing substantive has changed in the month you gave yourself. You said it that was the case, you'd separate. I'm wondering why that's now changed.
In your next relationship, whenever that may be, I hope that while it is still developing and growing, you talk with your partner (or potential partner) about expectations. It's hard to tell if you simply feel like you can't do these things (sell the house, travel alone), or if your current girlfriend would actually object. Either way, it's a problem, though if it's the former, it's probably more your issue than hers and it's something to work on with your counselor.
There is no reason in a healthy relationship that each party can't do some things alone. I'll be traveling for about 12 days this month, to visit my parents and then do a small weekend trip with my mom and sister (both of whom are leaving behind spouses for those 3 days). These are absolutely things that can happen in healthy, trusting relationships, if you want them to.
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Have you discussed the possibility of codependency with your counselor? (If it's a problem, and you identify it, you can work on it.)
Signs of codependency include:
Having difficulty making decisions in a relationship
Having difficulty identifying your feelings
Having difficulty communicating in a relationship
Valuing the approval of others more than valuing yourself
Lacking trust in yourself and having poor self-esteem
Having fears of abandonment or an obsessive need for approval
Having an unhealthy dependence on relationships, even at your own cost
Having an exaggerated sense of responsibility for the actions of others
https://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/do-you-have-a-codependent-personality.aspx
Or you could check out Co-Dependants Anonymous which is a 12-step program for people who struggle in relationships. Consider going to a few meetings, listen to what is being said, check out the literature table and see whether it applies. It is a very powerful program that did wonders for me.
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Is she off the BC? Did she get any urges at all?
Although this relationship may have gotten comfortable, like ratty old pair of shoes, bit you've got to know it's not working for you at all.
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I'm assuming that if her libido had resumed, you would have told us. So:
-no libido change
-no desire for kids
-you want to go to Thailand
-you want to sell the house
-your month is up, you said the relationship would be over now.
Buy a ticket to Thailand. Tell your girlfriend you'll decide about kids when you get back. When you get back, put the house up for sale. Then tell her you are not marrying her, will never have kids, and even if you do, you're not going to have them with her.
You could tell her now, but then she might mess up the house when you're gone.
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Sometimes (and maybe this is a codependency thing) people use other people as "excuses" for why they can't do stuff, that they say they want to do, but don't. You are young, you do NOT have dependents (your girlfriend or ex girlfriend is NOT a dependent) there is no excuse for you not to live the best life you can. And that is another reason why, both you are hesitating to break up (she gives you reasons to stay in a comfortable place, when maybe you should be challenging yourself) and exactly why you should be single for awhile. Just yourself. Then you can hopefully gain clarity on what you really want.
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It's not that I can't do things; I just have this realization I won't do them. Whether or not those barriers to entry are actually there or just somehow preconceived in my mind are up for debate
The codependency thing is interesting; definitely checks some of the boxes.
She actually went to a social gathering tonight and I brought up we need to talk tomorrow it's been a month. I'm not against going to the new counseling together (cool thing is now it's free); but I'll explain how exactly I feel now and make the point of nothing has changed. I do believe libido if BC controlled could take months to reestablish but that's just on the side. We've been perfectly fine living the day to day life but yeah; tomorrow it gets addressed what now?
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Tomorrow it "gets addressed"?
Meaning, you tell her a month has passed, so now she has to decide whether to do same thing as before - live in your house and keep you from doing the things you want, so that someday she can increase her control over you and get you to have children that you do not want?
(Just putting the most common pieces together from this thread)
Were I a counselor, I'd probably point that after a month, YOU were supposed to quit the relationship. It has long been established that she will not decide to leave no matter how many times you ask. Based on what you've written in this thread, putting this on her means that you're dodging responsibility for your own life again. My own counselors in the past have been pretty clear in similar situations. You are responsible, not her.
Are you going to "address" it by repeating the same codependent loop of indecision again, or address it by telling her the relationship is over?
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The fact that you don't know how to "address" it means that you didn't really take your own timeline all that seriously.
Instead, you did the far more comfortable thing of falling right back into the benign-seeming pattern of the exact same relationship holding pattern that you two have been in for 7 years, where you both ignore the glaring problems, because you get along so well that it's easy to pretend everything is fine.
I get it, you guys were exhausting each other and you weren't getting anywhere because the only rational answer was to break up and you weren't ready to accept that yet. We already know that she won't ever accept that, so it's down to you.
So you gave yourself a month of breathing space, because you were emotionally exhausted and unprepared to take the next necessary steps. That's understandable.
However, you've had your break, it's time to get back to the tough job of actually handling your shit.
Time is up. Nothing has changed.
It's time to break up.
She still wants to get married and have children with you, which is still irresponsible and downright irrational based on the state of your relationship. You still aren't getting sex, and it's still rather emotionally cruel for you to put that pressure on her given what you now know about her emotional state.
So it's still two people whose desires from one another are not healthy for the other person. You know what more talking, more counseling, and more time will do. It will only plunge you back into the awful, awful, exhausting process you just went through a month ago, only to come to the exact same conclusions again: it's not fixable.
If you actually love her, then stop putting her through this.
It's not healthy, it's not going to get healthy.
You've had a month to rest, it's time to be the grown up here and do the right thing and break up.
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I agree with everybody here that this relationship has no future unless one of the parties gives in. And that party has to give in because they really want to - not just because they are sacrificing their wants and needs so that the relationship can continue.
That being said, I don't think it's possible to convince OP of this because it's a fundamental truth that he needs to learn in his way and in his time. Every unhealthy relationship I've been in has only ended when one (or both) of us has given up trying to make it work. Until that point there is nothing any of us can say to convince OP otherwise.
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I agree with everybody here that this relationship has no future unless one of the parties gives in. And that party has to give in because they really want to - not just because they are sacrificing their wants and needs so that the relationship can continue.
That being said, I don't think it's possible to convince OP of this because it's a fundamental truth that he needs to learn in his way and in his time. Every unhealthy relationship I've been in has only ended when one (or both) of us has given up trying to make it work. Until that point there is nothing any of us can say to convince OP otherwise.
Of course.
But speaking from my experience, my DH's experience, and the experience of several divorced friends and family, it really does help to have people actually say directly that they think that the relationship should end.
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13 pages (and counting) of forum members saying exactly that with varying amounts of "tough love". OP needs to decide if this is the relationship he wants indefinitely - or if he's ready to move on into the scary unknown. It could take months or years to make this decision (with "indecision" being his current decision).
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As someone widely pointed out pages ago, this forum has a wide variety of people with different like experiences who have different opinions. Usually you’ll find the spectrum of responses when someone posts a case study.
This has been the one thread where every single person has consistently said the same thing, in different ways and for different reasons, but we all see that this relationship is unhealthy and has to end.
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While I've already added my voice to the "this is a bad situation, it needs to end" chorus, it has occurred to me that a further action for OP to take would be to sell his house. This has a lot of advantages: it frees him financially and geographically, it provides a full stop to the current period of his life, and it may even persuade his roommate that she needs to move on and find someone who is better suited to provide her with what she wants out of life.
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I’ve been lurking for a while, here are my 2 cents:
In my last relationship I wasn’t thinking/pursuing/interested in anyone else. But I looked into my heart and I asked myself if I wanted to marry this man. Could i see a future, kids, etc etc. together. No. I could not. So we broke up and it was hard, sad, we cried, he wanted to have sex “one more time”. So a little different than your issue. We even waffled a little bit with an on/off thing for about 4 months. But then I decided it was over. Blocked his number, moved away, haven’t talked to him since (2 years now)
Best decision ever. Not to hurt him, because I do think about him sometimes, remember the good times and hope he is doing well. but we would have been waffling forever if I hadn’t decided that enough was enough. Quite frankly, he was always shit at making decisions. I had to make the decision because I was the one who was sure it was over. I was in a “not bad enough to leave, not good enough to stay” for those waffling 4 months but really it’s the “not good enough to stay” part of that phrase that says it all.
Good luck op! This is a kind thing you are doing for yourself and her even though it hurts.
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It's not that I can't do things; I just have this realization I won't do them. Whether or not those barriers to entry are actually there or just somehow preconceived in my mind are up for debate
The codependency thing is interesting; definitely checks some of the boxes.
She actually went to a social gathering tonight and I brought up we need to talk tomorrow it's been a month. I'm not against going to the new counseling together (cool thing is now it's free); but I'll explain how exactly I feel now and make the point of nothing has changed. I do believe libido if BC controlled could take months to reestablish but that's just on the side. We've been perfectly fine living the day to day life but yeah; tomorrow it gets addressed what now?
@zoochadookdook You posted this June 8. It is now June 24. Are you still on the endless merry-go-round or is there any progress/resolution?
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Sure we've been in limbo.
I go to counseling once a week/work at home stuff etc.
She has taken on summer hours (working 3 days a week) and has landed a great teaching job at a local hometown school. This is a perfect job for her as it's the field she wants to be in, has a pension and other benefits and just fits great.
I actually got a call on Friday about a job position at a friends fathers company across the county. It would require me to move there. The job is entry level project management- pay would be 70k a year with healthcare/no 401k match. Option to work flextime 1-2 days a week. Ideally, it's a development program to hire you to the larger company. Lots of options for which way to go (my one friend is going into infosec after being there a few years) and really sounds like a lucky opportunity (my buddies dad is a high up CIO in the company).
This job sounds good. I've been in the city I live in now for years though. It's comfortable and my family lives up here. It is possible to gain the professional experience for a year or 2 at this new job and come back/go anywhere with the certifications and credentials that would bring.
This has become a catalyst for her and I. Obviously she says she'd have no problem moving or such if we knew we were heading towards marriage and it doesn't make sense to if not. Or if I could work remotely or so on and so forth. It's been a sad atmosphere this weekend as we have been talking through it a bit. I have 2 weeks to give a soft/yes or no so they could start the process. She has said it feels like this is an opportunity to just cut everything in my life out and start over and it's just sad to think about. Personally, I don't want to go- but I also don't want to turn down an opportunity that could advance/kickstart a career so well.
My current company I make 22/hr. No benefits. A chance for direct hire with benefits and better pay in 3 more months; but not sure what the pay would be or If I would have options to move to other more technical departments internally. I guess if it comes to the worst I can go to HR; lay out the offer I have and see what they could do comparatively.
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Sure we've been in limbo.
I go to counseling once a week/work at home stuff etc.
She has taken on summer hours (working 3 days a week) and has landed a great teaching job at a local hometown school. This is a perfect job for her as it's the field she wants to be in, has a pension and other benefits and just fits great.
I actually got a call on Friday about a job position at a friends fathers company across the county. It would require me to move there. The job is entry level project management- pay would be 70k a year with healthcare/no 401k match. Option to work flextime 1-2 days a week. Ideally, it's a development program to hire you to the larger company. Lots of options for which way to go (my one friend is going into infosec after being there a few years) and really sounds like a lucky opportunity (my buddies dad is a high up CIO in the company).
This job sounds good. I've been in the city I live in now for years though. It's comfortable and my family lives up here. It is possible to gain the professional experience for a year or 2 at this new job and come back/go anywhere with the certifications and credentials that would bring.
This has become a catalyst for her and I. Obviously she says she'd have no problem moving or such if we knew we were heading towards marriage and it doesn't make sense to if not. Or if I could work remotely or so on and so forth. It's been a sad atmosphere this weekend as we have been talking through it a bit. I have 2 weeks to give a soft/yes or no so they could start the process. She has said it feels like this is an opportunity to just cut everything in my life out and start over and it's just sad to think about. Personally, I don't want to go- but I also don't want to turn down an opportunity that could advance/kickstart a career so well.
My current company I make 22/hr. No benefits. A chance for direct hire with benefits and better pay in 3 more months; but not sure what the pay would be or If I would have options to move to other more technical departments internally. I guess if it comes to the worst I can go to HR; lay out the offer I have and see what they could do comparatively.
I read this as the universe telling you the same thing we have all been telling you. Change is hard but ultimately it is a wonderful growing experience and will make you better for it. You are young: this is the time you are supposed to be exploring and learning and having fun and trying new things and meeting new people. Perhaps a bit of your dissatisfaction is that you are denying yourself all of these very natural growing urges.
Take the good opportunity and jump in with both feet. Your friend will be fine. You will be fine and will probably come out great on the other end. The time apart will probably do wonderful for things for both of you, as we have said a thousand times here already. You are stunting each other without getting any benefit from it except the comfort of the familiar.
Good luck! Take a leap!
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That sounds like an amazing job opportunity. Leaving the familiar can certainly be bittersweet, but what you have described really sounds ideal. Would you need to sell your house or would it work financially as a rental?
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That sounds like an amazing job opportunity. Leaving the familiar can certainly be bittersweet, but what you have described really sounds ideal. Would you need to sell your house or would it work financially as a rental?
Honestly, haven't thought about it. I think the rental market would be 1500/month maybe more hopefully.
I ower 116k on a 30 year 4.25%. A mortgage is 560. Insurance 1000. Prop taxes 3000 (although non homestead would go up)
Selling price would be around 200 minus fees.
Either way rent or split would be ok. I think owning it and having the ability to relocate back here would be a plus though.
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Take the job. Rent the house out. Having a bit of distance from your roommate will help you sort out whether you really want to be partners long-term.
To quote the wisdom of the ages (otherwise known as clichés)
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
Out of sight out of mind.
If you take this new job (which sounds like a definite improvement) you will also see which cliché applies to your situation. Do you miss each other like mad? Or is the drifting apart accelerated?
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maybe this is the universe telling you something.
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maybe this is the universe telling you something.
Like minds :)
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I highly urge you to take the job and sell the house.
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I think owning it and having the ability to relocate back here would be a plus though.
You will always have the ability to move back, home ownership has nothing to do with it. Sell the house.
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Keeping the house as a long distance rental is complicating your job as a landlord. You will need someone (technical) to run it for you. Also, it might give your roommate the impression that she could keep living there (for free?). Better to make it obvious that she should move out by selling it. She will be free to find someone who wants marriage and baby and you will be free to explore your own life.
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50 Ways to Leave Your Lover
Paul Simon
The problem is all inside your head, she said to me
The answer is easy if you take it logically
I'd like to help you in your struggle to be free
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover
She said it's really not my habit to intrude
Furthermore I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued
But I repeat myself, at the risk of being cruel
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover, fifty ways to leave your lover
Just slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy, just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus, don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee, and get yourself free
Ooh slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan, Stan
Don't need to be coy, Roy, just listen to me
Hop on the bus, Gus, you don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee, and get yourself free
She said it grieves me so to see you in such pain
I wish there was something I could do to make you smile again
I said, I appreciate that, then would you please explain about the fifty ways
She said, why don't we both just sleep on it tonight
And I believe, in the morning you'll begin to see the light
And then she kissed me and I realized she probably was right
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover, fifty ways to leave your lover
You just slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy, just get yourself free
Or you hop on the bus, Gus, you don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee, and get yourself free
Slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy, just listen to me
Hop on the bus, Gus, you don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee, and get yourself free
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABXtWqmArUU
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OK, zoochadookdook, there are now 14 pages of people giving you the same advice. I'm not sure how much one more post will help, but I'm going to try.
When I was not too far from your age (20-24), I was in a relationship a that reminds me of yours. Not exactly the same, but close. It was not particularly healthy. We had wildly incompatible ideas about what the future and what our relationship looked like. I clung to this relationship desperately. At the time, though, it didn't feel like desperation. It felt like loyalty. It felt like being a Good Girlfriend. After all, we loved each other. That should be enough, right? Why would we ever give up on that? What would life be like if I gave up on someone I loved? I twisted myself up in knots to make it work. I gave up things that I wanted and needed emotionally just on the hope that we could stay together. We talked and talked and talked and talked about how "complicated" and "special" our relationship was. All the people who were advising us to split up just didn't really understand the complexities. Sound familiar?
It took him doing something really shitty to break my illusion once and for all. I'm so grateful for that, because it forced me finally to let go.
It was scary. It was lonely. And it was the best thing I could have done. I had never felt so FREE. I wish for you to feel that freedom, OP.
A couple of years later, I met someone new (well, sort of. It was actually an ongoing friendship that turned into something more). A few weeks into it, we both knew that this. was. it. The certainty I felt about this relationship was so different from what I had felt before. It was like a revelation--that love really could be simple, that you could just be crazy about each other in every way, and you could go forward together without ultimatums, without fear, without compromising your needs. Yeah, there's compromise on the small stuff, but at the core, we're focused on making sure we're taking care of each other and helping each other to be better, always.
I wish for both you and your GF to experience that feeling, OP.
Be kind.
End it.
For both of your sakes. You both deserve to experience that kind of uncomplicated love.
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I have been following this thread but haven't commented yet because other people are saying it so well. But I really hope you decide to take the job.
I was married 15 years (from ages 20-35) and of course it was scary to be out on my own after all that time. It was also great. I want that for you and her.
When we were in our mid- to late-20s, my ex and I really should have admitted that we'd made a mistake and gone our separate ways. But we didn't. On my end, yes, this is partly because I wanted to have a baby. We had 2. Now, of course I don't want to go back in time and un-have my children, but you have the power to make a different, easier, less painful life for yourselves.
Splitting up is hard. But if you do it now, you will never be simultaneously crying and cleaning up vomit because your kid ate too much and was overexcited about the handoff and threw up all over everything, and now they're gone for two months with their other parent.
TL;dr: I was once a woman in my 20s who kind of knew that my relationship was bad but was ignoring that because I wanted a baby, and my ex would have done both of us a kindness in the long run if he had split.
Good luck!
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Experienced people give advice and young people ignore it. Then the young people go through hell and gain experience. That’s how young people become experienced people. And they are now in a position to give advice to the next generation, which is promptly ignored. Rinse-repeat, ad infinitum.
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Experienced people give advice and young people ignore it. Then the young people go through hell and gain experience. That’s how young people become experienced people. And they are now in a position to give advice to the next generation, which is promptly ignored. Rinse-repeat, ad infinitum.
On the one hand, this is true. On the other hand, I think there have been times in my life when a brief, well-timed word has helped me make a good decision.
Plus, at least he asked :-).
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Don't worry,old people make mistakes too.
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Experienced people give advice and young people ignore it. Then the young people go through hell and gain experience. That’s how young people become experienced people. And they are now in a position to give advice to the next generation, which is promptly ignored. Rinse-repeat, ad infinitum.
On the one hand, this is true. On the other hand, I think there have been times in my life when a brief, well-timed word has helped me make a good decision.
Plus, at least he asked :-).
So true! Reminds me of that great observation by Will Rogers:
There are three kinds of people. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
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I have been following this thread but haven't commented yet because other people are saying it so well. But I really hope you decide to take the job.
I was married 15 years (from ages 20-35) and of course it was scary to be out on my own after all that time. It was also great. I want that for you and her.
When we were in our mid- to late-20s, my ex and I really should have admitted that we'd made a mistake and gone our separate ways. But we didn't. On my end, yes, this is partly because I wanted to have a baby. We had 2. Now, of course I don't want to go back in time and un-have my children, but you have the power to make a different, easier, less painful life for yourselves.
Splitting up is hard. But if you do it now, you will never be simultaneously crying and cleaning up vomit because your kid ate too much and was overexcited about the handoff and threw up all over everything, and now they're gone for two months with their other parent.
TL;dr: I was once a woman in my 20s who kind of knew that my relationship was bad but was ignoring that because I wanted a baby, and my ex would have done both of us a kindness in the long run if he had split.
Good luck!
+1
I am a woman in my late twenties who was married for 10 years to someone where I kind of knew the relationship was bad but it was scary to leave and more comfortable to depend on it. It also involved the enormous hurdle of trying to get over infidelity (which even if successful, leaves major wounds and trust issues that as you've seen, echo for a very long time), sexual incompatibility, and mismatched life goals. He eventually pulled the bandaid off and insisted that we weren't going to be happy together no matter how hard we tried, and he was right and did me a kindness. Once it was over (like REALLY over, not "let's try this separation thing and be friends in each others' lives") it was immense relief and almost an overnight cure to what I thought was constant, low-level depression. Turns out my main relationship was just at a constant, low-level of mediocre to bad. I used to cry 3-4x a week, and now I can't remember the last time I cried; it's probably been 6 months. It was a 180 degree turnaround in daily happiness being single, which has only improved since starting to date a nice guy who is a much better match for me in almost every way. I don't even know if this new guy is the "for the long haul guy" - he could very well be a good one-year boyfriend for all I know, and it's STILL 1000% better than my ten year marriage. Trust me, you lose all perspective about what is a good relationship after being in a bad one for this long, and you will be constantly surprised how great it is on the other side.
Please break this off and build separate lives, untangling as much as you can. You fucked up a long time ago, but you don't have to wear the hair shirt of staying in a bad relationship as penance, because it helps nobody, including her.
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Experienced people give advice and young people ignore it. Then the young people go through hell and gain experience. That’s how young people become experienced people. And they are now in a position to give advice to the next generation, which is promptly ignored. Rinse-repeat, ad infinitum.
On the one hand, this is true. On the other hand, I think there have been times in my life when a brief, well-timed word has helped me make a good decision.
Plus, at least he asked :-).
So true! Reminds me of that great observation by Will Rogers:
There are three kinds of people. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Similar, but not quite similar to this quote, I once read one that said the three types of people are "those that make it happen, those that let it happen, and those that wonder what the hell happened".
Make the choice, and don't be #3.
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You were worried about getting a better job that paid more, to feel more financially secure.
--> You were offered a job with a fantastic pay and advancement opportunities that would jumpstart your career, saving you YEARS of getting to that point elsewhere. You even already have friends there so you're not starting from scratch.
You have discussed ad nauseam that you and your girl/friend have different wants/priorities that are not compatible and you ought/want to break up, but neither of you is willing to do actually it so your limbo and holding pattern continues with neither of you happier than you were months ago when this was hiding under the rug.
--> Yes, breaking up now and moving WOULD make a tough decision an easier transition, absolutely. Don't let her guilt you that you shouldn't do it if you want to because it's easy, as it sounds like she was doing from the other thread. (Such a weird idea that you would want it to be hard rather than an easy end. Would you tell a friend that their divorce needed/ought to be hard?) And, watching from you on the sidelines, it has been hard!) https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/masochism (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/masochism)
You don't particularly like your house.
--> The new job is a perfect opportunity to sell your house and have your friend move out onto her own, into her new life/new start as well. If you decide you want to move back (after having gained great work experience), you can rent (leaving you able to come back on a dime at any point), or buy something you like better.
What am I missing? What's holding you back?
If nothing else, you could even consider moving and having a long-distance relationship. With distance you can get clarity. As someone else said, does absence make the heart grow fonder (despite not having your needs met) or do you grow apart?
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Long distance relationships are great catalysts for break ups. If you don't have the balls or the resoluteness to break up, a long distance relationship might do the trick.
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What am I missing? What's holding you back?
The dogs?
Absolutely a cross country move is a lot to coordinate. But, it's done all time, and this can all be worked out if you want it to.
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Yeah I mean so she's mentioned she wouldn't mind moving if she knew we were going forward towards marriage so obviously that's a conflict of interest.
From a job standpoint, you can't ask for much more of a leg up. Paid for certs, starting good base salary, a few friends in the company working directly with, etc.
The girlfriend is a tipping point. Staying together and moving isn't working unless I agree to the conditions (kids in a few years etc) which I can't seem to figure out. Staying together short term at distance may be an option but I'm guessing commitment to moving would be a catalyst towards all that. Already she's been looking for options for jobs up here/other ways I can work remote etc. I think the thing that sucks is just her perspective I would choose this job over my life here.
On the other hand I'd kick myself in the teeth if I didn't take it. 99% sure I'm taking it-arranging for a flight the 12-14 just to visit the area and see the company and I guess we'll see how everything goes from there after I give my answer.
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Yeah I mean so she's mentioned she wouldn't mind moving if she knew we were going forward towards marriage so obviously that's a conflict of interest.
From a job standpoint, you can't ask for much more of a leg up. Paid for certs, starting good base salary, a few friends in the company working directly with, etc.
The girlfriend is a tipping point. Staying together and moving isn't working unless I agree to the conditions (kids in a few years etc) which I can't seem to figure out. Staying together short term at distance may be an option but I'm guessing commitment to moving would be a catalyst towards all that. Already she's been looking for options for jobs up here/other ways I can work remote etc. I think the thing that sucks is just her perspective I would choose this job over my life here.
On the other hand I'd kick myself in the teeth if I didn't take it. 99% sure I'm taking it-arranging for a flight the 12-14 just to visit the area and see the company and I guess we'll see how everything goes from there after I give my answer.
Hold up.
1) "Yeah I mean so she's mentioned she wouldn't mind moving if she knew we were going forward towards marriage so obviously that's a conflict of interest."
Why is she even discussing that? Have you actually INVITED her to move with you? If so, are you nuts???
2) "Already she's been looking for options for jobs up here/other ways I can work remote etc."
Ugh. UGH. UGH!!!!!! WHY IS SHE DOING THIS???? It is not her decision!!!
3) "I think the thing that sucks is just her perspective I would choose this job over my life here."
Well, you would be. Which is a GOOD thing. You are young and should be living for yourself. Not living for what she wants. Which is pretty much what you have been doing up until now.
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Staying together and moving isn't working unless I agree to the conditions (kids in a few years etc) which I can't seem to figure out.
No, she thinks you haven't figured it out because she hasn't cajoled you into a "yes," yet. "Not knowing" if you want marriage and kids is a "No." You've figured it out: the answer is no. She wants you to believe that your "no" means you don't know yet (because the only acceptable answer for her is yes) which is manipulative and abusive.
Don't you see what's happening here? First it was no sex unless you agree to marry her, now it's no advancing your career unless you agree to marry her?
Jesus christ, dude.
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You need to be really clear with her that you don’t want marriage and kids with her at this point and that you do not see yourself changing your mind any time soon. You also need to be really clear that she needs to live her life and pursue the opportunity that she has for her new job where she is already. Meaning, you need to be really clear that if you take this job you will be moving alone.
To not be clear with her would be mean. You need to stop that train in the tracks because it will just get harder and harder to do the right thing the longer you wait.
Oh please rip off this bandaid.
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I feel like I'm watching a train wreck in slow motion...get off the train before it crashes!!!
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Like a horror movie where everyone in the theater is yelling at the character on the screen because they can see what is coming but the character doesn’t? ;-)
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Yep. Cue scary music.
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Nah. Not scary music. Credits music, after we see the scene where he's riding a train, writing in his journal the ending monologue of the movie as we zoom out and see the train get smaller and smaller on its way out west. Flash to his ex, who is gathering the last of her things and saying a wistful, yet hopeful goodbye to their old life together as she embraces her own future.
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So, say you stay. Turn down the job. Marry your friend. Do you really think this would EVER be a healthy happy relationship?
The patterns of relating and resolving differences will just be more embedded. She is not respectful of your point of view. You know this. And you will resent the lost opportunities and the life you might have had.
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So, say you stay. Turn down the job. Marry your friend. Do you really think this would EVER be a healthy happy relationship?
The patterns of relating and resolving differences will just be more embedded. She is not respectful of your point of view. You know this. And you will resent the lost opportunities and the life you might have had.
That's not what he's hesitating about, he's hesitating about promising her marriage and kids and bringing her along with him.
However, if the move doesn't turn out to be the "perfect" opportunity, then he doesn't have to worry so much about committing to her, because then he could just stay in the insane holding pattern where he doesn't actually have to make a decision.
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Or say you take the job and bring her with you. She will expect marriage and babies, quid pro quo. Either 1) you will acquiesce, not being sure that it's something you want right now, and become legally bound to her and bound to the responsibility of raising children. Unless your sex life suddenly raises from the crypt like Dracula and your relationship completely transforms, you will develop a poisonous resentment for her which will inevitably destroy the relationship. However now it's worse, because divorce is messy and damaging to children.... or 2) After moving you will still be "unsure" about wanting marriage and children right now, and her own resentment for not getting what she wanted after sacrificing her new job and way of life will build poisonously, which will inevitably destroy the relationship.
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Nah. Not scary music. Credits music, after we see the scene where he's riding a train, writing in his journal the ending monologue of the movie as we zoom out and see the train get smaller and smaller on its way out west. Flash to his ex, who is gathering the last of her things and saying a wistful, yet hopeful goodbye to their old life together as she embraces her own future.
I like this vision.
And between credits we get a couple of sentences of updates from a few years down the line where we see that both are doing great, better than before, and found happiness in a way they hadn’t imagined possible.
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You don't need her permission to break up.
Yes, you WOULD be choosing a new life over the life you have with her. Because the life you have with her isn't good. I am very sympathetic to her, too, and I don't even know your GF. The things she says often sound like things I might have said at a similar age. But you don't need to convince her.
I honestly think that if you break up with her, she will find someone that she wants to have sex with and who wants to have babies with her faster than either of you think, and you will make a good new life for yourself.
When you have only had one relationship as an adult, it's hard to see how fucked up it is. I am still surprised sometimes by how good a good relationship is.
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I just had a new idea.
You should move, take the job, and tell her you'll decide later what to do about her.
Then when you meet some hot woman in San Antonio, start having exciting rolls in the hay with the new flame.
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Ghost her, move your stuff out and put the house on the market while she's gone... It worked for my ex-BIL at least :-/
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Yeah I mean so she's mentioned she wouldn't mind moving if she knew we were going forward towards marriage so obviously that's a conflict of interest.
From a job standpoint, you can't ask for much more of a leg up. Paid for certs, starting good base salary, a few friends in the company working directly with, etc.
The girlfriend is a tipping point. Staying together and moving isn't working unless I agree to the conditions (kids in a few years etc) which I can't seem to figure out. Staying together short term at distance may be an option but I'm guessing commitment to moving would be a catalyst towards all that. Already she's been looking for options for jobs up here/other ways I can work remote etc. I think the thing that sucks is just her perspective I would choose this job over my life here.
On the other hand I'd kick myself in the teeth if I didn't take it. 99% sure I'm taking it-arranging for a flight the 12-14 just to visit the area and see the company and I guess we'll see how everything goes from there after I give my answer.
ahhhhhh!
The cosmos has smiled upon you, giving you the perfect opportunity to transform your life all at once.
Why do you need to agree to any conditions? Or suffer through more guilt trips about marriage and other life-commitments you don't want to make?
It's time to say your goodbyes, pack up, and go.
The future is bright!
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I just had a thought about your GF's lack of libido, which she thinks is due to her BC method. If you take the job and she doesn't move with you, she does not need to be on BC (not sure why she is on it now since you two are not having sex anyway). She can go off it with no worries about pregnancy. Then she can see if she recovers (or develops) a libido. Of course this may not work - because 1. she needs the BC for medical, not pregnancy control, reasons (and if so, why has she talked about being willing to go off it?), or 2. she is asexual. If she is asexual, she is never going to be interested in sex with you, so maybe this is something she should figure out now? If she does develop a libido, this may let her realise that it is you she is not hot about, not men in general. In which case a better life opens up for both of you.
Seriously, you worry so much about her, but this present situation hurts her as much as it hurts you, just not in as obvious a way. If you really care about her so much, set her free to find a partner that suits her better. I really mean this, my Ex (we were married a long time) didn't want me to leave, but he has a new partner now and they are much better suited to each other than we were.
In other words, GO and on your own!!!!!
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I just had a new idea.
You should move, take the job, and tell her you'll decide later what to do about her.
Then when you meet some hot woman in San Antonio, start having exciting rolls in the hay with the new flame.
Lol. I enjoy spring rolls and pulled pork on rolls. 'bout it
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I just had a thought about your GF's lack of libido, which she thinks is due to her BC method. If you take the job and she doesn't move with you, she does not need to be on BC (not sure why she is on it now since you two are not having sex anyway). She can go off it with no worries about pregnancy. Then she can see if she recovers (or develops) a libido. Of course this may not work - because 1. she needs the BC for medical, not pregnancy control, reasons (and if so, why has she talked about being willing to go off it?), or 2. she is asexual. If she is asexual, she is never going to be interested in sex with you, so maybe this is something she should figure out now? If she does develop a libido, this may let her realise that it is you she is not hot about, not men in general. In which case a better life opens up for both of you.
Seriously, you worry so much about her, but this present situation hurts her as much as it hurts you, just not in as obvious a way. If you really care about her so much, set her free to find a partner that suits her better. I really mean this, my Ex (we were married a long time) didn't want me to leave, but he has a new partner now and they are much better suited to each other than we were.
In other words, GO and on your own!!!!!
She's been off it for several months now. She mentioned she has spurts of a libido but obviously due to wanting to wait for a future marital commitment and such combined with my perceived guilt at pressure to arrive at that conclusion if we were to engage in such acts-nothing doing. Prior she was on BC for period regulation and such.
She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
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I just had a thought about your GF's lack of libido, which she thinks is due to her BC method. If you take the job and she doesn't move with you, she does not need to be on BC (not sure why she is on it now since you two are not having sex anyway). She can go off it with no worries about pregnancy. Then she can see if she recovers (or develops) a libido. Of course this may not work - because 1. she needs the BC for medical, not pregnancy control, reasons (and if so, why has she talked about being willing to go off it?), or 2. she is asexual. If she is asexual, she is never going to be interested in sex with you, so maybe this is something she should figure out now? If she does develop a libido, this may let her realise that it is you she is not hot about, not men in general. In which case a better life opens up for both of you.
Seriously, you worry so much about her, but this present situation hurts her as much as it hurts you, just not in as obvious a way. If you really care about her so much, set her free to find a partner that suits her better. I really mean this, my Ex (we were married a long time) didn't want me to leave, but he has a new partner now and they are much better suited to each other than we were.
In other words, GO and on your own!!!!!
She's been off it for several months now. She mentioned she has spurts of a libido but obviously due to wanting to wait for a future marital commitment and such combined with my perceived guilt at pressure to arrive at that conclusion if we were to engage in such acts-nothing doing. Prior she was on BC for period regulation and such.
She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
Sooooo.... you still haven't had sex?
Man, see the writing on the wall. End it.
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Anyways I'm going to talk to her this weekend about it. I need to book the flight down there and start making moves in the current job and life and jazz if i'm going down there and can't really put it off any longer.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
This is not true. With you out of the picture, she will have opportunities for her own personal growth and development.
My impression is that y'all are both a bit stunted from this relationship. Apologies for the cliched phrase, but she needs to "find herself" just as much as you do. Breaking up will be good for both of you in the end.
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Anyways I'm going to talk to her this weekend about it. I need to book the flight down there and start making moves in the current job and life and jazz if i'm going down there and can't really put it off any longer.
Excellent update! Book that flight. Probably the kindest thing you can tell her is that you want her to be happy (not stressed), and you cannot give her what she wants to be happy (commitment, marriage, kids).
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
This is not true. With you out of the picture, she will have opportunities for her own personal growth and development.
My impression is that y'all are both a bit stunted from this relationship. Apologies for the cliched phrase, but she needs to "find herself" just as much as you do. Breaking up will be good for both of you in the end.
Yeah, perfect manifestation of co-dependency. Tell the roommate to pack her bags and get the house on the market. In 1 year you will both look back and be embarrassed that you both put up with this arrangement for so long.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Well consider. If I move I sell the house. She lives in the house. Even if we were set on being married in x amount of time etc etc-I can see how a place she's made a home and become attatched to being discarded would be unsettling.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Well consider. If I move I sell the house. She lives in the house. Even if we were set on being married in x amount of time etc etc-I can see how a place she's made a home and become attatched to being discarded would be unsettling.
Your lives are the products of both of your choices. She refused to have sex with you and is still choosing not to, despite getting some libido back. You refused to get married and have kids, and are still choosing not to.
If you said once she has sex with you regularly, she's welcome to move with you and get married, then everything's due to her choice not to have sex. Except that would be gross and manipulative of you. Her version is gross and manipulative too.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Well consider. If I move I sell the house. She lives in the house. Even if we were set on being married in x amount of time etc etc-I can see how a place she's made a home and become attatched to being discarded would be unsettling.
She should have never "made a home" or become attached to a place for which she was not contributing.
You aren't married. She wasn't paying half the bills (was she?). Hell, she wasn't even sleeping with you.
This relationship is very bad. Run.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Well consider. If I move I sell the house. She lives in the house. Even if we were set on being married in x amount of time etc etc-I can see how a place she's made a home and become attatched to being discarded would be unsettling.
Yes it may be unsettling, but it's life too. What are you going to do, continue to give her a place to live for the rest of her life regardless of your relationship status? You know how crazy that sounds? You don't owe her a place to live.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Well consider. If I move I sell the house. She lives in the house. Even if we were set on being married in x amount of time etc etc-I can see how a place she's made a home and become attatched to being discarded would be unsettling.
I am sympathetic to her and don't think it's bullshit, but breakups are unsettling and stressful, as are strained and fragile relationships. That sucks, but the only way out is through. You can and should continue to be sympathetic to her feelings -- but by realizing that the kindest way to approach her and her feelings is not be just doing nothing because doing something will be hard, but instead to clearly and compassionately break up with her, as cleanly as you can. It's unpleasant, but the alternative (letting things drag on and on) is worse.
I was in her shoes, and I know how she feels. Better to get it over with (amicably and compassionately, but clearly).
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I had to move out and find a new place to live when I got divorced. It was actually kind of great to have my own place. I know, it feels jerky to do, and my ex and I had the advantage of being in agreement that breaking up was best for us, but... this shit happens. You can be generous with the move-out timeline if you like (but with a firm deadline), but this is a thing that people have to manage.
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And you are again letting her manipulate and guilt you into putting her needs well before your own.
Breakups are stressful. That is life. But they are shorter lived and less stressful overall than your current relationship situation.
You don’t owe her a marriage just so she can avoid stress. You don’t owe her to put your career on the back burner so she can avoid stress. You don’t owe her indefinite free housing so she can avoid stress. You don’t owe her anything other than a reasonable period to find a new place to live and move out. One month is more than enough time in this situation.
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Situations like this one are why the US divorce rate is so high. People just refuse to see any other option than diving into a bad marriage head first.
Here's a tip for you. If your waiter says he only has two things on the menu today, and option one is a giant shit sandwich, take option 2. I don't care what mystery option 2 is, you don't eat the shit sandwich on purpose.
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Anyways I'm going to talk to her this weekend about it. I need to book the flight down there and start making moves in the current job and life and jazz if i'm going down there and can't really put it off any longer.
Excellent update! Book that flight. Probably the kindest thing you can tell her is that you want her to be happy (not stressed), and you cannot give her what she wants to be happy (commitment, marriage, kids).
Yeah I've resonated that. I've been committed but apparently, marriage is a big picture commitment vs the day to day commitment. I do want her to be happy and I've vocalized I'm holding her in limbo vs her finding someone who meets her standards.
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Vocalizations are part of the codependency loop for you two.
Book that flight...
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Yeah I've resonated that. I've been committed but apparently, marriage is a big picture commitment vs the day to day commitment. I do want her to be happy and I've vocalized I'm holding her in limbo vs her finding someone who meets her standards.
Why are you still vocalizing feelings and talking about holding her in bloody limbo?
You're not able to give her what she wants. She's not able to give you what you want. Nothing in the pages of updates and discussion indicates that you are one millimetre closer to a resolution than you were when you first realised this. You can either make a clean break and take a tremendous opportunity, or you keep going on and on and on and fucking on in the same neverending loop of talking about how both of you want things the other can't provide, getting older and more resentful year on year. Stop trying to find a fix for this relationship, because there isn't one. It's holed below the waterline, and letting it drag on like this is shitty both to yourself and to her. Absolutely nothing you've described gives the faintest indication that there's any kind of prospect of this getting better, and getting better at talking about your feelings does nothing except make you really good at seeing just how broken your relationship is.
Break up. Take the job across the country. Sell the house.
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You need to be really clear with her that you don’t want marriage and kids with her at this point and that you do not see yourself changing your mind any time soon. You also need to be really clear that she needs to live her life and pursue the opportunity that she has for her new job where she is already. Meaning, you need to be really clear that if you take this job you will be moving alone.
To not be clear with her would be mean. You need to stop that train in the tracks because it will just get harder and harder to do the right thing the longer you wait.
Oh please rip off this bandaid.
Yes so so much this. I have been in a relationship that we ended, because it wasn't working. And because he was moving and wanted me to follow him. I didn't want to follow him. I wanted to do my OWN thing. But we broke up and left it with "maybe". We kept in touch, talked weekly. He came back to visit with ideas and ... yeah I was over it. It was over, and that was for the best. That six months in between of "maybe" was really painful though. Rip. Off. The. Bandaid.
Likewise, 5 years or so later (when I was your age-ish), a different BF moved away from me. I told him "I'll consider following you, but only if we are married." Which is what I wanted, but I wasn't necessarily going to pressure him. I had 2 more years in my military commitment before I could move anyway. We are still married (but it was still hard, yo!) HE was the right guy. The first guy was not and I knew it. He wanted stuff from me (commitment, kids, putting him first) that I wasn't willing to give.
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She is young - finding a new place to live is not that big a stress. I found a new place to live when I left my husband, and we had been married for decades. It was stressful. Not as stressful as staying in the marriage would have been. More stressful than if I had done it when I was 30 years younger. Which I probably should have, looking back.
There is always stress in life - the trick is to learn to cope with it. How does anyone learn to cope if they never have any stress to deal with? Did her parents coddle her so much that she has poor/no coping skills? Did yours?
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I’m gonna take this from a different angle.
I love my husband. I love him so much that it is hard for me to imagine how my body would ever find the strength to draw another breath if he died. The happiness I get from our relationship is something I find impossible to describe.
We have other couple friends who I think feel similarly about each other.
Is this how you feel about your friend?
It doesn’t seem like you do.
Finding a partner that lights up your world is one of the greatest joys of a human life.
Don’t take away your friend’s and your chance at a real relationship.
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I’m gonna take this from a different angle.
I love my husband. I love him so much that it is hard for me to imagine how my body would ever find the strength to draw another breath if he died. The happiness I get from our relationship is something I find impossible to describe.
We have other couple friends who I think feel similarly about each other.
Is this how you feel about your friend?
It doesn’t seem like you do.
Finding a partner that lights up your world is one of the greatest joys of a human life.
Don’t take away your friend’s and your chance at a real relationship.
Yeah I mean I enjoy our time together but nothing really makes me over the moon happy; I'm not depressed or such but I just don't get excited about things. Holidays seem like a hassle, most things I do for fun are because I enjoy the activity but it's not necessarily happy endorphins flying off the handle. Stuff like my birthday I'd rather ignore because I don't want to ask for things from people. It's difficult to find happiness working towards a future that you don't know where you want to end up/what you want/etc. I think the closest I am to a goal is finding out what my goal is;.
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Anyways I'm thinking of putting my 2 weeks in next week. This job makes way too much sense not to take.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Well consider. If I move I sell the house. She lives in the house. Even if we were set on being married in x amount of time etc etc-I can see how a place she's made a home and become attatched to being discarded would be unsettling.
She should have never "made a home" or become attached to a place for which she was not contributing.
You aren't married. She wasn't paying half the bills (was she?). Hell, she wasn't even sleeping with you.
This relationship is very bad. Run.
The old-fashioned rule is: don't live together if you're not married. It prevents a lot of this stress and pressure.
Added: and don't buy pets together. I think it makes sense for you to buy out her share of the dogs and for you to keep them, not for her to 'give' them to you. If she needs to rent a place, finding a rental that takes 2 dogs and paying extra pet rent is a PITA, so you keeping them and caring for them is a favor to her.
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I’m gonna take this from a different angle.
I love my husband. I love him so much that it is hard for me to imagine how my body would ever find the strength to draw another breath if he died. The happiness I get from our relationship is something I find impossible to describe.
We have other couple friends who I think feel similarly about each other.
Is this how you feel about your friend?
It doesn’t seem like you do.
Finding a partner that lights up your world is one of the greatest joys of a human life.
Don’t take away your friend’s and your chance at a real relationship.
Yeah I mean I enjoy our time together but nothing really makes me over the moon happy; I'm not depressed or such but I just don't get excited about things. Holidays seem like a hassle, most things I do for fun are because I enjoy the activity but it's not necessarily happy endorphins flying off the handle. Stuff like my birthday I'd rather ignore because I don't want to ask for things from people. It's difficult to find happiness working towards a future that you don't know where you want to end up/what you want/etc. I think the closest I am to a goal is finding out what my goal is;.
You are definitely, definitely not in the right relationship, my friend.
You only go around once. Life is too short to spend it like this.
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Anyways I'm thinking of putting my 2 weeks in next week. This job makes way too much sense not to take.
Congrats! It really sounds like the universe has given you a great gift with this job offer. A little time and distance will give you both a lot more clarity.
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Wait to put in your two weeks until you have a job offer in writing.
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She's definitely told me she's stressed as it feels like her life is a result of my choices going forward.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Well consider. If I move I sell the house. She lives in the house. Even if we were set on being married in x amount of time etc etc-I can see how a place she's made a home and become attatched to being discarded would be unsettling.
She should have never "made a home" or become attached to a place for which she was not contributing.
You aren't married. She wasn't paying half the bills (was she?). Hell, she wasn't even sleeping with you.
This relationship is very bad. Run.
The old-fashioned rule is: don't live together if you're not married. It prevents a lot of this stress and pressure.
Added: and don't buy pets together. I think it makes sense for you to buy out her share of the dogs and for you to keep them, not for her to 'give' them to you. If she needs to rent a place, finding a rental that takes 2 dogs and paying extra pet rent is a PITA, so you keeping them and caring for them is a favor to her.
Realistically I could pay her a future "dog maintenance" fee or I could buy them out. The younger one needs another dog; the older one is a fine solo dog. She would have family to move in with and her mother may allow one dog to stay. Haven't seriously discussed it yet. I wouldn't want to keep them from her-We're both overly obsessed with them.
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Wait to put in your two weeks until you have a job offer in writing.
I can call the hiring manager again this weekend (buddies dad). This position isn't externally advertised to my knowledge so he may have to draft or have a contract offer drafted up next week.
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Wait to put in your two weeks until you have a job offer in writing.
This this this!!!! Do not do anything until you have a signed offer in writing.
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Wait to put in your two weeks until you have a job offer in writing.
This this this!!!! Do not do anything until you have a signed offer in writing.
It's sound advice. I know I have the offer given my relationship with the family and his position, but don't believe it until you see it!
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I’m gonna take this from a different angle.
I love my husband. I love him so much that it is hard for me to imagine how my body would ever find the strength to draw another breath if he died. The happiness I get from our relationship is something I find impossible to describe.
We have other couple friends who I think feel similarly about each other.
Is this how you feel about your friend?
It doesn’t seem like you do.
Finding a partner that lights up your world is one of the greatest joys of a human life.
Don’t take away your friend’s and your chance at a real relationship.
Yeah I mean I enjoy our time together but nothing really makes me over the moon happy; I'm not depressed or such but I just don't get excited about things. Holidays seem like a hassle, most things I do for fun are because I enjoy the activity but it's not necessarily happy endorphins flying off the handle. Stuff like my birthday I'd rather ignore because I don't want to ask for things from people. It's difficult to find happiness working towards a future that you don't know where you want to end up/what you want/etc. I think the closest I am to a goal is finding out what my goal is;.
I wonder if you may have some situational low grade depression going on? You may move on from this step in life and find that a fig is lifted that you hadn’t even realized was there.
When I think back on my early 20s my memories are so much the excitement of that time, the giddiness of new love with my boyfriend (now husband), the exploration and play and goofiness.
It wasn’t all perfect. School kicked my butt and the transition to a full-time career was hard. Our relationship had bumps in the road. Overall it was such a fun time of life though. I think you deserve the same carefree fun.
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I’m gonna take this from a different angle.
I love my husband. I love him so much that it is hard for me to imagine how my body would ever find the strength to draw another breath if he died. The happiness I get from our relationship is something I find impossible to describe.
We have other couple friends who I think feel similarly about each other.
Is this how you feel about your friend?
It doesn’t seem like you do.
Finding a partner that lights up your world is one of the greatest joys of a human life.
Don’t take away your friend’s and your chance at a real relationship.
Yeah I mean I enjoy our time together but nothing really makes me over the moon happy; I'm not depressed or such but I just don't get excited about things. Holidays seem like a hassle, most things I do for fun are because I enjoy the activity but it's not necessarily happy endorphins flying off the handle. Stuff like my birthday I'd rather ignore because I don't want to ask for things from people. It's difficult to find happiness working towards a future that you don't know where you want to end up/what you want/etc. I think the closest I am to a goal is finding out what my goal is;.
I wonder if you may have some situational low grade depression going on? You may move on from this step in life and find that a fig is lifted that you hadn’t even realized was there.
When I think back on my early 20s my memories are so much the excitement of that time, the giddiness of new love with my boyfriend (now husband), the exploration and play and goofiness.
It wasn’t all perfect. School kicked my butt and the transition to a full-time career was hard. Our relationship had bumps in the road. Overall it was such a fun time of lie though. I think you deserve the same carefree fun.
I haven't felt carefree for years. I mean the house was a lot. I was 22/23 and I had basically made enough at the time off a side hustle that involved some stressful situations (visiting pawnshops in the ghetto/situational robberies and such). I figured sure-why not buy a house. It drove me to take the job more seriously and make it work. That's what led me to frugality/financial independence is not wanting to depend on others when a $1000 car bill hits or a such; wanting to be successful enough while financing my own ambitions and such. Somewhere in between I got so caught up in the finances that I ignored my own wants; like all that stuff can wait until I hit my version of FIRE (ideally enough a month just to supplement a free work for myself pursue everything schedule). School sucked but I finished it just to say I did-kind of like a "oh maybe after this my life will magically arrange". When I applied myself it was fine-murdered all the final year of classes in a good way-but the actual motivation was never there.
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I disagree with Kbecks advice about not living together. If I had lived with my first 2 husbands I never would have married them. I lived with my third for years before marriage. Just because you love someone doesn’t mean you can live with them.
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I disagree with Kbecks advice about not living together. If I had lived with my first 2 husbands I never would have married them. I lived with my third for years before marriage. Just because you love someone doesn’t mean you can live with them.
Living with someone definitely does make breaking up with them harder, though. Breaking leases/dividing up stuff/drastic financial changes, etc. Those hurdles certainly make certain people stay in bad relationships longer than they should. OP is a case in point, for sure.
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OP, it sounds like you jumped into adult responsibilities way too young. Being a single man in a new city could be just the ticket to help you get some fun back in your life.
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OP, it sounds like you jumped into adult responsibilities way too young. Being a single man in a new city could be just the ticket to help you get some fun back in your life.
I completely agree with this. I think some time as a single man, renting, without responsibilities outside of going to work everyday would be wonderful for OP’s soul. Go party (in whatever form “partying” takes). An ill-conceived camping trip or skinny dipping or getting drunk or doing some international travel or trying totally new cuisines or a one-night stand or or or.... go live!
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OP, it sounds like you jumped into adult responsibilities way too young. Being a single man in a new city could be just the ticket to help you get some fun back in your life.
Lol I mean I left for the army the week after high school ended. To my credit being independent always seemed like the goal and is very much my driving factor so circumstantially-it's worked out to allow me to focus on that a bit.
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Wait to put in your two weeks until you have a job offer in writing.
This this this!!!! Do not do anything until you have a signed offer in writing.
It's sound advice. I know I have the offer given my relationship with the family and his position, but don't believe it until you see it!
Asking for salary/start date in writing mean there won't be any awkward surprises plus apartments will use the offer as verification of income before renting.
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I disagree with Kbecks advice about not living together. If I had lived with my first 2 husbands I never would have married them. I lived with my third for years before marriage. Just because you love someone doesn’t mean you can live with them.
Living with someone definitely does make breaking up with them harder, though. Breaking leases/dividing up stuff/drastic financial changes, etc. Those hurdles certainly make certain people stay in bad relationships longer than they should. OP is a case in point, for sure.
To elaborate-
If you live with someone it's your home too. If you sell the house-they have to move as well. All the decoration/ideas/furniture they purchased or thoughtfully designed/the memories they have-well that's in the past. It's emotionally tying and some people view a house as a lot more than a dwelling. Personally I could live in a converted travel van but to each their own.
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Wait to put in your two weeks until you have a job offer in writing.
This this this!!!! Do not do anything until you have a signed offer in writing.
It's sound advice. I know I have the offer given my relationship with the family and his position, but don't believe it until you see it!
Asking for salary/start date in writing mean there won't be any awkward surprises plus apartments will use the offer as verification of income before renting.
From my understanding, the start would be mainly remote at first/flexible until I could orchestrate the move. The plus of knowing the family is they have room for me at their house (their son is my friend and still lives with them) or a company apartment available. I've lived with the family for a summer before and we have a good dynamic.
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I’m gonna take this from a different angle.
I love my husband. I love him so much that it is hard for me to imagine how my body would ever find the strength to draw another breath if he died. The happiness I get from our relationship is something I find impossible to describe.
We have other couple friends who I think feel similarly about each other.
Is this how you feel about your friend?
It doesn’t seem like you do.
Finding a partner that lights up your world is one of the greatest joys of a human life.
Don’t take away your friend’s and your chance at a real relationship.
Yeah I mean I enjoy our time together but nothing really makes me over the moon happy; I'm not depressed or such but I just don't get excited about things. Holidays seem like a hassle, most things I do for fun are because I enjoy the activity but it's not necessarily happy endorphins flying off the handle. Stuff like my birthday I'd rather ignore because I don't want to ask for things from people. It's difficult to find happiness working towards a future that you don't know where you want to end up/what you want/etc. I think the closest I am to a goal is finding out what my goal is;.
I wonder if you may have some situational low grade depression going on? You may move on from this step in life and find that a fig is lifted that you hadn’t even realized was there.
When I think back on my early 20s my memories are so much the excitement of that time, the giddiness of new love with my boyfriend (now husband), the exploration and play and goofiness.
It wasn’t all perfect. School kicked my butt and the transition to a full-time career was hard. Our relationship had bumps in the road. Overall it was such a fun time of lie though. I think you deserve the same carefree fun.
I haven't felt carefree for years. I mean the house was a lot. I was 22/23 and I had basically made enough at the time off a side hustle that involved some stressful situations (visiting pawnshops in the ghetto/situational robberies and such). I figured sure-why not buy a house. It drove me to take the job more seriously and make it work. That's what led me to frugality/financial independence is not wanting to depend on others when a $1000 car bill hits or a such; wanting to be successful enough while financing my own ambitions and such. Somewhere in between I got so caught up in the finances that I ignored my own wants; like all that stuff can wait until I hit my version of FIRE (ideally enough a month just to supplement a free work for myself pursue everything schedule). School sucked but I finished it just to say I did-kind of like a "oh maybe after this my life will magically arrange". When I applied myself it was fine-murdered all the final year of classes in a good way-but the actual motivation was never there.
I really think some travel could really help you. It sounds like you settled down into suburban life way too soon without giving yourself the opportunity to see what else is out there. You just did what you knew, what you thought you were supposed to do. There are so many other ways to live life. Some people never marry, never buy a house. Some live in big cities. Some in a Yurt in the wilderness. Some travel picking up work where they can. You need to figure out what makes you happy.
And for goodness sakes, have sex. It really is part of being happy.
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I disagree with Kbecks advice about not living together. If I had lived with my first 2 husbands I never would have married them. I lived with my third for years before marriage. Just because you love someone doesn’t mean you can live with them.
Living with someone definitely does make breaking up with them harder, though. Breaking leases/dividing up stuff/drastic financial changes, etc. Those hurdles certainly make certain people stay in bad relationships longer than they should. OP is a case in point, for sure.
To elaborate-
If you live with someone it's your home too. If you sell the house-they have to move as well. All the decoration/ideas/furniture they purchased or thoughtfully designed/the memories they have-well that's in the past. It's emotionally tying and some people view a house as a lot more than a dwelling. Personally I could live in a converted travel van but to each their own.
To a certain extent I agree with you. But I think we can all see that there is a difference in the level of “home” between someone renting a room with a bunch of random housemates and, say, finding a new apartment with a SO that you split together and choose furniture together and whatnot. I’m her case she is much closer to the first scenario than the latter, the difference being that she wasn’t even paying rent, so you could argue that her hold on the “home” was even more tenuous.
Anyway, it is neither here nor there. You give notice, she moves, you sell, life goes on. You are being more than considerate to her feelings.
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From my understanding, the start would be mainly remote at first/flexible until I could orchestrate the move. The plus of knowing the family is they have room for me at their house (their son is my friend and still lives with them) or a company apartment available. I've lived with the family for a summer before and we have a good dynamic.
This all sounds really, really positive. Very exciting for you!
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Please please go! Stay with your friends, because you are used to day to day companionship. But as you embrace your new life, start planning for more independence. The world is so full of opportunity and waiting for you to find it.
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The world is so full of opportunity and waiting for you to find it.
Also good sex. It's literally everywhere you look. You're kid in a candy store still sucking on last night's broccoli.
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The world is so full of opportunity and waiting for you to find it.
Also good sex. It's literally everywhere you look. You're kid in a candy store still sucking on last night's broccoli.
Oh fuck...that's a funny line.
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Sol's ability to find a pithy hilarious summary knows no bounds. Except those of (ahem) good taste. ;)
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The world is so full of opportunity and waiting for you to find it.
Also good sex. It's literally everywhere you look. You're kid in a candy store still sucking on last night's broccoli.
Seriously. There's no reason to spend your youth in a dry state when there's wetness, wetness everywhere. Go experiment. You won't believe the amazing things that'll happen.
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Fuck dude, RUN! 734 posts? FFS, this 'relationship' is never gonna make you happy! Move and move on! I mean this kindly for both of you. Ken
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...
On the other hand I'd kick myself in the teeth if I didn't take it. 99% sure I'm taking it-arranging for a flight the 12-14 just to visit the area and see the company and I guess we'll see how everything goes from there after I give my answer.
So you're there now i assume. Please let us know how it goes.
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Wow. I hope this guy takes the job and moves on. What I'm afraid will happen is he comes home with sad puppy dog eyes, she invites him to her bed, they have sex for the first time in 6 years and she gets pregnant. Oops.
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Wow. I hope this guy takes the job and moves on. What I'm afraid will happen is he comes home with sad puppy dog eyes, she invites him to her bed, they have sex for the first time in 6 years and she gets pregnant. Oops.
Yep. We are all afraid of that.
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I feel like he's been stringing us along for 7 years in this thread. Good Lord!
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I feel like he's been stringing us along for 7 years in this thread. Good Lord!
Interesting thought.
The thread has actually been going for over 7 weeks. Over 14 weeks, in fact. That's about 4% of the length of the relationship itself. Also, presumably over 1% of the gentleman's life.
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Paging @zoochadookdook - how's everything going?
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Hey ya'll sitting in the airport right now: some thoughts.
The job is good. The area meh; obviously it's not what I know/am used to. I'm actually shocked how much more uncomfortable I felt when actually thinking about the whole moving process than I've been saying. It's obviously a lot to go from what you know to something completely different.
I should have an offer on company paper in the next day or 2. I stayed with my 2 buddies (one of them has the CIO father). We checked out downtown (touristy) and the office (right on the riverwalk downtown). Went to some bars and all that. The father gave me the down low on how it's a position that would have lots of room for advancement and I'd be working with the son very closely. The son is a good friend but he does have attitude issues (must always be right/hates to lose in anything etc) so that may be a factor I hadn't considered.
The girlfriend and I talked before leaving. Kind of the same deal. She said she feels like she's just sticking around hoping I'll see how happy we are and such and I stated I want intamcy in a relationship to be happy, and of course, she says how could she feel that not knowing about the future. Also if i did decide to go I'd be basically ending the relationship (because without commitment she's going to stay here and yeah) We've texted and such while I'm away and just talked about our days and such. I think once I get this written offer I have to tell them by the end of the week. I still don't know what pay would be exactly (both my friends were there and one makes less so I didn't bring it up)
I guess overall I'm just a lot more afraid/have actualized this is a big deal and change. I miss the dogs, the house, her; but I also understand the kind of opportunity it is. Big pluses would be pay, huge room for advancement, flexibility to work a few days remote etc.
Anyways thanks for checking in. Have a consoling apt tomorrow evening as well to go over it.
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Thanks for checking in. I’m glad to hear that the job opportunity sounds as good as it does. It probably isn’t perfect but it seems like such a big step up from the rut you are in now that I think you should embrace it. Even if you spend two years there and find it isn’t the right career fit your resume will be much stronger for having made the move and diversifying your experience.
I wish you strength and courage in getting to the point of ripping off the bandaid with your friend. You are just stuck on the same old hamster wheel and I think you know that. Keep us posted. We are rooting for you.
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I guess overall I'm just a lot more afraid/have actualized this is a big deal and change.
You'll feel less afraid after you move.
If you stay, you will live in your fears. If you move, you will conquer them.
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"I want intamcy in a relationship to be happy, and of course, she says how could she feel that not knowing about the future."
Millions of people a day - hell, probably a billion or more - feel sexual desire on a daily basis without knowing about the future.
Having no sexual desire because you don't know what the future holds is not a normal or healthy thing. It's not a reasonable starting point for a discussion, and the fact that she keeps going back to it is really not good. She's clearly not interested at all in working through whatever issues she has, but instead wants you to fix it for her by marrying her and being happy without a sex life - because that way she gets everything she wants and doesn't have to do anything.
End the relationship. Sell the house. Take the job.
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I suspect that however afraid of change you are, your roommate is even more afraid of change, which is why she has been clinging so hard to a non-functioning relationship for the last 7 years.
I think you have the courage to make this leap and that it will be the best thing for both of you that either of you could do.
Good luck.
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Runbikerun is completely correct on this. People sleep with strangers - and with people they see no future with - because it's biologically programmed into us to want sex. If she's happy and healthy and in her 20's and won't have sex with you when she sleeps in your bed every day, this is unlikely to improve with marriage or commitment. The only exceptions I see to this is that she might initiate sex in desperation (in an attempt to keep you around) or when she wants to get pregnant.
Change is always hard, but we ALL urge you to take this next step. The universe is gifting you a chance to start over and explore a new life. If you hate it, come back in a year or two with a big upgrade to the resume. My guess is that after the first month or two, you will realize what you've been missing and will start to build a life around your needs and interests instead of somebody else's.
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I guess overall I'm just a lot more afraid/have actualized this is a big deal and change.
You'll feel less afraid after you move.
If you stay, you will live in your fears. If you move, you will conquer them.
Well put. True and succinct.
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"I want intamcy in a relationship to be happy, and of course, she says how could she feel that not knowing about the future."
Millions of people a day - hell, probably a billion or more - feel sexual desire on a daily basis without knowing about the future.
Having no sexual desire because you don't know what the future holds is not a normal or healthy thing. It's not a reasonable starting point for a discussion, and the fact that she keeps going back to it is really not good. She's clearly not interested at all in working through whatever issues she has, but instead wants you to fix it for her by marrying her and being happy without a sex life - because that way she gets everything she wants and doesn't have to do anything.
End the relationship. Sell the house. Take the job.
Yeah. If the world was ending, many people would turn to the person they feel the most close to, to hold onto, hell make love to, have that intimacy before the world ended. And this is not even the world ending, but simply uncertainty.
7 years is a long time. You have a lot of domestic intimacy, and that is not nothing. You are making the right decision breaking this off due to fundamental incompatibilities, but it's perfectly normal and natural to have feelings of loss and mourning over this change as well, and to acknowledge them.
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I'm excited for you to hear your offer and capitalize on it Zoocha!!!
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It seems like the choice is very clear to everyone except for you. Try making yourself a pro/con list for either option. This is how I see it
Pros of new job:
More pay, more opportunity for advancement, chance for a fresh start away from a stagnating relationship that is making neither person happy, opportunity to have sex for the first time in 6 years, chance to pursue your dreams of travel and develop your side hustle
Cons:
missing your existing network of friends/family, missing dogs, fear of the unknown?
If you've never uprooted and left a city, it seems very scary, but it's actually very freeing. You get a chance to recreate yourself without anything holding you back, and build up a life that is based around your values and desires. Plus, you have a bonus of already having a job and a couple friends in the new place, which will kick start your progress on a new network. Make the leap!
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OP: you've been consistently uncomfortable with the idea of actually ending things, so I'm going to spell out what this looks like if you don't.
Her sex drive will not reappear. I'd be willing to bet a gigantic sum of money on this. It's been, what, six or seven years now without any sex? It's not coming back.
If you do stay with her, you're going to get very familiar with online porn. You're going to get used to snatching little windows of time in your week to watch porn and get off as fast as possible. And that's going to be your sex life for the next forty years, along with a badly dented self-image - because it'll be hard to think of yourself as attractive when your own wife doesn't show any sexual interest in you.
Actually, that's not quite true. You may cheat on her.
That isn't meant as a slight on your character. Everyone is presented at various points in their lives with opportunities to cheat - the scale and frequency of these opportunities will vary, but they will appear. The number of women who will want to climb on top of you and ride you like a horse the day they meet you is not zero, and if you haven't had any kind of sexual contact for years the day you meet one of those women, it's going to be extremely difficult to resist the temptation to throw caution to the wind. So you either avoid meeting new people as much as possible (which makes those occasional occurrences even more intense as you've developed no defences), or you maintain the willpower on a consistent basis to say no to those opportunities for the rest of your life.
So, at the risk of being a downer, those are your options. Functional celibacy (with a loaded helping of feeling undesired and undesirable), or cheating on your partner. Those are, unfortunately, the options if you don't end this.
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I have to admit that--more than ten years in--the number of opportunities for me to cheat has been disappointingly low. Perhaps it's the MMM way of living, i.e. not spending money on flashy consumption goods.
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I have to admit that--more than ten years in--the number of opportunities for me to cheat has been disappointingly low. Perhaps it's the MMM way of living, i.e. not spending money on flashy consumption goods.
I suggest being a stay at home dad socializing with other stay at home moms, who work as a bartender, in a band. Only cost is the beers you give out free as a bartender... (results may vary)
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Yeah I don't go out much and I don't see the point in cheating if i'm actively picking a relationship.
Anyways we've been talking a bit and she's considering moving out *(before her new job starts in 2 months)
I've been WAITING on this stupid hard offer with the details before confirming or moving anything along 100%. It's just a sad situation.
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Yeah I don't go out much and I don't see the point in cheating if i'm actively picking a relationship.
Anyways we've been talking a bit and she's considering moving out *(before her new job starts in 2 months)
I've been WAITING on this stupid hard offer with the details before confirming or moving anything along 100%. It's just a sad situation.
She's considering moving out of the house and into her own place? Good luck on the hard offer details!
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Yeah I don't go out much and I don't see the point in cheating if i'm actively picking a relationship.
Anyways we've been talking a bit and she's considering moving out *(before her new job starts in 2 months)
I've been WAITING on this stupid hard offer with the details before confirming or moving anything along 100%. It's just a sad situation.
She's considering moving out of the house and into her own place? Good luck on the hard offer details!
In with her Mom, her moms of the opinion too much of her well being depends on me and we agree on that standpoint. She's told me to tell her either way before work starts so she has time.
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Sounds like a baby step in the right direction.
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I have to admit that--more than ten years in--the number of opportunities for me to cheat has been disappointingly low. Perhaps it's the MMM way of living, i.e. not spending money on flashy consumption goods.
Don't get me wrong - I don't think OP is going to be turning down multiple propositions on a nightly basis, but while those situations may be quite rare, they're not nonexistent.
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She gave you an opening by considering to move out and you didn't agree that she should probably move on? Why lead her on like that? It's tough enough to break up. It's even harder when you feel your partner has wasted your "best years" trying to decide if you're good enough to marry.
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I have to admit that--more than ten years in--the number of opportunities for me to cheat has been disappointingly low. Perhaps it's the MMM way of living, i.e. not spending money on flashy consumption goods.
Don't get me wrong - I don't think OP is going to be turning down multiple propositions on a nightly basis, but while those situations may be quite rare, they're not nonexistent.
Men always think that when they become single again it's going to basically be Bourbon Street. I think it's actually easier if you move to a new place, because you have to be meeting a lot of people for the first time anyway.
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Feels like the OP has been holding us hostage for as long as this "gf" has been holding him hostage.
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She gave you an opening by considering to move out and you didn't agree that she should probably move on? Why lead her on like that? It's tough enough to break up. It's even harder when you feel your partner has wasted your "best years" trying to decide if you're good enough to marry.
I told her it's a good idea and I'm more than likely taking this job which will result in me selling the house.
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I saw "she told me to tell her either way before work starts so she will have time".
I don't think she is hearing you. Are you trying to keep your options open with her until you actually move and put the house on the market?
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I saw "she told me to tell her either way before work starts so she will have time".
I don't think she is hearing you. Are you trying to keep your options open with her until you actually move and put the house on the market?
I think he's trying to avoid the more psychologically difficult position of "I broke up with her because I don't love her and thus I am the bad guy", and using the move as a way to position himself as "Well, the relationship had to end because of the move, so I'm not such a bad guy." Probably not even consciously. Hell, I can't cast any stones, I've done exactly that sort of thing in the past, myself.
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He may not be stating things very strongly to her, but it's pretty clear she has a strong case of "You're not marrying me? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" going on.
It's CO-dependent. The scabs and pus and drippy tendrils will not separate without persistent effort or a dramatic break. We're still in the How Long Will This Go On stage. My bet: 50% chance of 1 to 3 months more. Depending on what the definition of "when does it end" is.
I'm an optimist!! :)
Best wishes to OP. We're rooting for you.
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Hope you get the offer letter soon. Waiting can be tough. It probably wouldn't hurt to send a follow-up if you haven't heard back.
For the attitude dynamic with the son you'd be working with (who must always be right/hates to lose in anything etc), there are many good resources for dealing with challenging personality types in a workplace setting, hopefully that won't hold you back. Good luck @zoochadookdook !
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Obviously a excuse of leaving for a career would make it a "it's not my fault for not committing/trying to make it work" situation less;
That being said; neither of us wants to break up with the other, that's why we've been like this for months. Even if I turn this job down EVENTUALLY something will have to give; either in one of our principals (which is either we start having sex but that's not going to happen, or as she thinks-I commit to marriage/kids/etc etc and hope the relationship changes to my liking-which is also not going to happen).
I think the job offer came at a good time as it has caused us to assess closer and in her words "me to decide what's important to me".
The offer should be in this afternoon-I think the pay is a bit less than I expected, however it would have lots of room for quick growth. I don't even necessarily want to move/leave my area; but convincing myself the job is too good to pass up is a way of mentally covering up the rest.
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Obviously a excuse of leaving for a career would make it a "it's not my fault for not committing/trying to make it work" situation less;
That being said; neither of us wants to break up with the other, that's why we've been like this for months. Even if I turn this job down EVENTUALLY something will have to give; either in one of our principals (which is either we start having sex but that's not going to happen, or as she thinks-I commit to marriage/kids/etc etc and hope the relationship changes to my liking-which is also not going to happen).
I think the job offer came at a good time as it has caused us to assess closer and in her words "me to decide what's important to me".
The offer should be in this afternoon-I think the pay is a bit less than I expected, however it would have lots of room for quick growth. I don't even necessarily want to move/leave my area; but convincing myself the job is too good to pass up is a way of mentally covering up the rest.
A fit 27 year old guy with his finances in order as well as an upwardly mobile career trajectory - dude you are a catch. You won't have any issues finding another good quality person to be with.
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Obviously a excuse of leaving for a career would make it a "it's not my fault for not committing/trying to make it work" situation less;
That being said; neither of us wants to break up with the other, that's why we've been like this for months. Even if I turn this job down EVENTUALLY something will have to give; either in one of our principals (which is either we start having sex but that's not going to happen, or as she thinks-I commit to marriage/kids/etc etc and hope the relationship changes to my liking-which is also not going to happen).
I think the job offer came at a good time as it has caused us to assess closer and in her words "me to decide what's important to me".
The offer should be in this afternoon-I think the pay is a bit less than I expected, however it would have lots of room for quick growth. I don't even necessarily want to move/leave my area; but convincing myself the job is too good to pass up is a way of mentally covering up the rest.
A fit 27 year old guy with his finances in order as well as an upwardly mobile career trajectory - dude you are a catch. You won't have any issues finding another good quality person to be with.
lmao fit as in fitndis donut in my mouth? Because that's the usual grind. Thanks for your words though; I'm not even thinking about finding someone else or whatnot though.
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Moving is an easy way to have an excuse that works. Then you will have some space and be able to work on your career and see how you feel on your own. If you can't bear to break up, and moving is a safer way to get your head together, then move! If it is meant to be, it will still be meant to be between the two of you and then you can propose or even have a long-distance relationship for a while. But you need to get some space.
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Moving is also a socially acceptable out for her - "he left to take a job elsewhere and I wanted to stay here."
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I haven't participated in the conversation before, but I am particularly bad with breaking up and twice an intercontinental move was a great excuse to end the relationship. Was it the best/nicest thing I've ever done? No. Did it work? Hell yes. The distance also reduced the chance of 'meeting up as friends' with one person intending to get back together to 0. Also no awkwardness, ruined social lifes etc, because I just left :)
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Just got the official offer document 5 minutes ago.
The actual offer seems to be a bit lower than I thought-so negotiating/asking about growth and position oppertunities will be a big part of this. Realistically it doesn't make sense to relocate unless it's a considerable difference vs what I'm offered here. Will be asking about PTO/holidays/other bonuses offered etc. If anyone has any suggestions for questions I'm all ears.
For reference offer is going to be:
65k/yr
5k moving relocation costs (12 months required at job to keep/paid 2 months after moving)
decent pay into healthcare
401k with no match
1-2 days remote/week
The actual job is project management.
After a year you would get hired into the parent company and get better benifits. Pay i'm not sure when it could increase etc but this is the entry PM role.
I currently make 22/hr
But when this hard offer comes back I will be coming back to this company and I suspect they will offer
around 60k
1 day remote/week
3% 401k
healthcare plan
The actual job I'm not sure what advancement it'll offer. It's mostly admin IT work. I could ask.
I'm navigating this strictly on actual convenience to benefits to what's best career/financial wise right now. If i move or not we're figuring out this relationship but I'm trying to take this as a non relationship affected decision. I like my town and the area I'm at-it's comfortable but yeah
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The new job will do wonders for your career. You've said your current job has near zero room for advancement. I wouldn't fret over a 0-5k difference in salary it will be negligible 6-12 months from now. Project management can be very lucrative and teach you a ton of life/career skills. Definitely try to negotiate but I don't think 65k is too far off from an entry level job PM job.
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Obviously do your due diligence and see if you can sweeten the deal from what you've got right now, but I vote for accepting.
I don't think the moving costs deduction would apply here (assuming it's still around), but I hope you don't have a ton of stuff to move, so $5k should be plenty.
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My buddy who is a 2ND level up pm (son of the CIO) said 6 months would be a direct hire into the parent company and restructure pay. He makes around 85k after 9 months (*this was his starting position).
I'm trying to talk to my boss today around 4 and bring up everything. I do know this company I'm with right now moves people between departments but I have no idea if they did hire me salary what it would be. Either way have to ask.
Obviously talking to the gf tonight. She's been under the impression I have one foot out the door already for the past weekend....we've been cordial but kind of just waiting. I'm sure there will be a lot of blaming and such.
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I'm trying to talk to my boss today around 4 and bring up everything.
Are you ready to leave your current company today? You have to be prepared for this possibility if you are going to be talking to your boss.
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I'm trying to talk to my boss today around 4 and bring up everything.
Are you ready to leave your current company today? You have to be prepared for this possibility if you are going to be talking to your boss.
Financially? I'm fine. I can pull in what I make here/plus some working for myself part time even if I lost this job today. I know that's part of it though. The other company wants this signed by wednesday though and he's out of office tomorrow so...
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Definitely take the new job.
Even if your current company ups your pay, you'll just be at the high end of your likely achievement there. Upthread IIRC (maybe in some other thread), you said as much yourself. 65k for project management is in the bottom third of that field - exactly where you should be when starting out. Five years from now, your PM income will likely be close to double what you would make by staying. The skill you develop will put you, not employers, in the position of power while you finish accumulating your FIRE stash.
Also, Texas has no income tax. San Antonio has many affordable locations. You can save lots of money there at 65k, making excellent progress toward FI. IMHO this offer is the difference between achieving FIRE and maybe not achieving it.
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Please take the job, and either sell or rent out your house, but dont leave your friend in it.
Can you talk to her mother? Explain you need to take this opportunity to grow as a person, and an individual.
I think you mentioned back a bit that she was encouraging your friend to move out of your house.
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Well have til the end of the week to give a yes or no. Talking to the GF tonight-sure to be a interesting conversation. Can't talk to my boss until Wednesday as he won't be in office until then
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Good luck.
Another vote for taking the new job. :)
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Well I have to talk to my boss tomorrow morning and say:
"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Realistically if it's not a considerable offer it doesn't make sense to stay.
That being said the gf talking last night didn't really get anywhere. She's under the impression I just need to realize what's important/if it was just a year she could wait and such. I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" and it's just so frustrating. It's like I'm not being heard. I'm not against the idea of we could get married in the future but time apart would help define that vs staying in the same holding pattern.
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Well I have to talk to my boss tomorrow morning and say:
"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Realistically if it's not a considerable offer it doesn't make sense to stay.
That being said the gf talking last night didn't really get anywhere. She's under the impression I just need to realize what's important/if it was just a year she could wait and such. I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" and it's just so frustrating. It's like I'm not being heard. I'm not against the idea of we could get married in the future but time apart would help define that vs staying in the same holding pattern.
Oh dear god stop trying to convince your girlfriend of your point of view. She is a separate person from you, and she doesn’t need to agree with you or accept your point of view as being right for the both of you.
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Well I have to talk to my boss tomorrow morning and say:
"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Realistically if it's not a considerable offer it doesn't make sense to stay.
That being said the gf talking last night didn't really get anywhere. She's under the impression I just need to realize what's important/if it was just a year she could wait and such. I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" and it's just so frustrating. It's like I'm not being heard. I'm not against the idea of we could get married in the future but time apart would help define that vs staying in the same holding pattern.
She is hearing you just fine, the problem from her point of view is that she doesn't agree with you - she wants to get married to you while never having sex again unless it's to make babies. She is never going to say anything to you that admits you are not going to marry her and then remain celibate for the rest of your life.
The good news is that you don't need her agreement. It doesn't take two people to end a relationship, it takes one. And that one has to be you. You've told her often enough that it's over, you don't need to talk any more. Take the job, sell the house, done. She'll be better off when you've gone and she is free to find some other man to have a sexless marriage with her.
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Well I have to talk to my boss tomorrow morning and say:
"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Realistically if it's not a considerable offer it doesn't make sense to stay.
That being said the gf talking last night didn't really get anywhere. She's under the impression I just need to realize what's important/if it was just a year she could wait and such. I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" and it's just so frustrating. It's like I'm not being heard. I'm not against the idea of we could get married in the future but time apart would help define that vs staying in the same holding pattern.
it’s like you’re not being heard because: a) it’s to her advantage not to hear you; and b) you need to tell her, uncategorically, that it is over.
She will hear that.
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Good God.
I really want to avoid sounding harsh, but it's very difficult.
Pull the plug on this relationship. Stop talking back and forth about the same root problem again and again and again. You want a sex life. She's not willing to work on that. That's it. Forget about "getting married in the future" - she's unwilling to do anything at all about a problem you've clearly identified in your relationship, so there's no basis for hoping that you'll somehow stumble into a happy relationship together somewhere down the line. What the two of you want is incompatible on a basic and fundamental level.
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Well I have to talk to my boss tomorrow morning and say:
"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Realistically if it's not a considerable offer it doesn't make sense to stay.
That being said the gf talking last night didn't really get anywhere. She's under the impression I just need to realize what's important/if it was just a year she could wait and such. I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" and it's just so frustrating. It's like I'm not being heard. I'm not against the idea of we could get married in the future but time apart would help define that vs staying in the same holding pattern.
Re the boss: I would stop after "I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me." and then let the boss say whatever they're going to say. The next sentence you wrote just opens the door for them to lowball you. You have to be ready to leave. That's the only way you'll get their best offer.
And your girlfriend? She says one thing, you say another thing. You don't agree. It's an important issue -- a deal-breaker. Someone has to be the one to leave, or you'll be miserable. You'll be doing her a favor too. Leaving for a job in another state is the perfect way to do this.
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Understand this: if you marry this girl, she will not have sex with you during the marriage. You will be signing up for a lifetime of celibacy.
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Understand this: if you marry this girl, she will not have sex with you during the marriage. You will be signing up for a lifetime of celibacy.
This is absolutely and totally correct. If you don't end this, you'll spend the rest of your life stewing in online porn and/or pretty understandable resentment, and there's a decent chance that you'll cheat.
I'm not saying that you'll be sleeping with three different women a week - I'm simply pointing out that as a tall, solvent, reasonably fit young man, you will meet women who find you very attractive from time to time, and if one of them decides to make a move, you may find it genuinely thrilling and difficult to resist.
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Again, the root problem with this 'relationship' isn't that she doesn't want to have sex with you, though that is a problem. The root problem is she doesn't care about your needs and your priorities, and thinks that you should just 'come around' to seeing everything her way. That is not a relationship of partners, it's a setup for gaslighting. You need to stop 'having discussions' with her and just tell her in no uncertain terms that this is over. When you discuss with her, it lets her pretend that this is still a negotiation, that you can still be convinced, that you might change your mind. So don't have a chat about the why's and wherefore's. Tell her flat out that your mind is made up.
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Well I have to talk to my boss tomorrow morning and say:
"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Realistically if it's not a considerable offer it doesn't make sense to stay.
That being said the gf talking last night didn't really get anywhere. She's under the impression I just need to realize what's important/if it was just a year she could wait and such. I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" and it's just so frustrating. It's like I'm not being heard. I'm not against the idea of we could get married in the future but time apart would help define that vs staying in the same holding pattern.
it’s like you’re not being heard because: a) it’s to her advantage not to hear you; and b) you need to tell her, uncategorically, that it is over.
She will hear that.
I am not so confident that she will “hear” it.
Their problem is not about hearing, it’s about lack of action. When he walks away she may not accept that as the end. When he moves states away, she may not accept that as the end. When he talks to her via phone for months/years, she may not accept that as the end.
This young man needs to act like an adult and kindly, firmly set the boundary of “we are no longer a couple” and carry out that action. NO Further contact.
It us awful, sad, maddening, and just plain wacky that OP is having exactly the same conversation with the girlfriend that he had when he first came on this website. Exactly. The. Same.
I will repeat what I said pages ago: OP, you are being neither kind nor considerate to this girl for continuing to raise the specter of you two getting together someday. Stop talking about your relationship. Cut her loose.
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Well I have to talk to my boss tomorrow morning and say:
"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Realistically if it's not a considerable offer it doesn't make sense to stay.
That being said the gf talking last night didn't really get anywhere. She's under the impression I just need to realize what's important/if it was just a year she could wait and such. I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" and it's just so frustrating. It's like I'm not being heard. I'm not against the idea of we could get married in the future but time apart would help define that vs staying in the same holding pattern.
it’s like you’re not being heard because: a) it’s to her advantage not to hear you; and b) you need to tell her, uncategorically, that it is over.
She will hear that.
I am not so confident that she will “hear” it.
Their problem is not about hearing, it’s about lack of action. When he walks away she may not accept that as the end. When he moves states away, she may not accept that as the end. When he talks to her via phone for months/years, she may not accept that as the end.
This young man needs to act like an adult and kindly, firmly set the boundary of “we are no longer a couple” and carry out that action. NO Further contact.
It us awful, sad, maddening, and just plain wacky that OP is having exactly the same conversation with the girlfriend that he had when he first came on this website. Exactly. The. Same.
I will repeat what I said pages ago: OP, you are being neither kind nor considerate to this girl for continuing to raise the specter of you two getting together someday. Stop talking about your relationship. Cut her loose.
Yes, true. I guess I meant, tell her in no uncertain terms that it is over, and then follow through with actions. But as you say, that would mean setting boundaries. And OP has great difficulty with that.
OP, she will never "agree" that this can't/won't/shouldn't work. You are stuck in this spiral because you are waiting for her to agree.
Stop that.
It is time to move on.
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Well this conversation is coming Wednesday once I get my work situation settled at my current job.
I guess I just have to make myself clear. I haven't really been in this position before and it feels like I'm sleepwalking or something.
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"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Dont say this. Maybe the first two sentences, but definitely not that third line.
What if your current employer increases your pay or even matches the offer? Are you prepared to remain here? You don't negotiate like that unless you are prepared to take the offer if they meet your requests. Otherwise, you are negotiating in bad faith.
Tell them you have a new offer in hand, and are leaving. If your current employer wants to offer you more, they will, but then you won't be obligated to accept. You also should be "packed" and be prepared to be let go that same day.
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snip... I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" ..../snip
What a fantastic statement to show the conundrum of this entire thing. You don't want to commit until you get more from the relationship. She wants you to commit to the relationship before she gives you more. You both probably feel like you're talking to a fucking wall. It's a case of "Who's on First"...and it's insane/frustrating watching it play out in real life.
Break up. Take the job regardless. Time for both of you to start new chapters.
Good luck OP!
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"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Dont say this. Maybe the first two sentences, but definitely not that third line.
What if your current employer increases your pay or even matches the offer? Are you prepared to remain here? You don't negotiate like that unless you are prepared to take the offer if they meet your requests. Otherwise, you are negotiating in bad faith.
Tell them you have a new offer in hand, and are leaving. If your current employer wants to offer you more, they will, but then you won't be obligated to accept. You also should be "packed" and be prepared to be let go that same day.
Ah got it. Well when it comes to career/opportunity I'm open to negotiation and it seems silly not to at least hear a offer from the current employer. I am working on several projects for them currently so it would be a giving 2 weeks scenario not leaving same day just out of courtesy.
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No, what I am saying is they can fire you the same day (depending on state laws I guess).
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snip... I've told her I don't want to get married and it's mainly due to our relationship dynamic-and she's like "well i've told you I need commitment" ..../snip
What a fantastic statement to show the conundrum of this entire thing. You don't want to commit until you get more from the relationship. She wants you to commit to the relationship before she gives you more. You both probably feel like you're talking to a fucking wall. It's a case of "Who's on First"...and it's insane/frustrating watching it play out in real life.
Break up. Take the job regardless. Time for both of you to start new chapters.
Good luck OP!
It's circle talk; like I understand how she feels but I can't change it. In her mind she thinks I want her to give me "everything" before I offer a future.
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"I have offer x with starting x. I've been happy here but I have to do what's best for me. What room/overhead does this position have/what can you offer if I don't take offer x?"
Dont say this. Maybe the first two sentences, but definitely not that third line.
What if your current employer increases your pay or even matches the offer? Are you prepared to remain here? You don't negotiate like that unless you are prepared to take the offer if they meet your requests. Otherwise, you are negotiating in bad faith.
Tell them you have a new offer in hand, and are leaving. If your current employer wants to offer you more, they will, but then you won't be obligated to accept. You also should be "packed" and be prepared to be let go that same day.
Ah got it. Well when it comes to career/opportunity I'm open to negotiation and it seems silly not to at least hear a offer from the current employer. I am working on several projects for them currently so it would be a giving 2 weeks scenario not leaving same day just out of courtesy.
You are offering two weeks as a courtesy. There is no guarantee your employer will take you up on it (though it is probable they will). Some employers, once they know you are planning to leave, would rather just have you out the door, due to security concerns or whatever else. So, be prepared for the possibility that they will accept your resignation and then ask you to leave the building. If they don't, great! But best to be prepared.
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No, what I am saying is they can fire you the same day (depending on state laws I guess).
Yeah that's fine. I don't have a ton here.
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It's circle talk; like I understand how she feels but I can't change it. In her mind she thinks I want her to give me "everything" before I offer a future.
Yes, we understand that. We've understood that through 17 pages. The question is: can you accept that this is an impossible way for the two of you to spend the rest of your lives - or indeed, even one more day of your lives? And can you then follow through and say "this has gone on far too long, it ends now"? And then not listen to whatever your former friend has to say, because she has nothing to say which is either new or useful.
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No, what I am saying is they can fire you the same day (depending on state laws I guess).
Yeah that's fine. I don't have a ton here.
That is good. This has happened to my husband in the past, when he announced he was leaving for a job at a competitor. They paid him for those two weeks, so it was a nice vacation for him in between jobs. That was the tech industry though.
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Why does she get to decide what's best for you?
Try being direct. "I understand your position, and you understand mine. I am not happy in a sexless relationship, and I don't want you to compromise your principles to make me happy. It's time for us to end the relationship so we can both move on. Please move out by xx/xx/xx."
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She hears you just fine. But because it's not what she wants you to be saying, she ignores what you've actually said. She is trying to manipulate you. I think you don't listen when we all tell you that (hmmm...), but probably because you generally categorize her as a "good person" and you think we are saying she's not a good person. But she can absolutely be a good person and still be manipulating you. She can be a good person who is desperate for a husband and babies, and who is scared to disrupt her life. Tt's not perfect, but it's the life she has and giving that up can be hard, as you well know, even when it is what is best). So she almost literally sticks her fingers in her ears and pretends you didn't say what you did, so she can have an argument with you that she can actually win, or twist to get the outcome she wants.
People break up with good--even great--people all the time. Some of the very best people in my life I'm sure I would have broken up with if we dated because they are *not the right person for me, and I am not the right person for them*. I get the impression that because you think she's "good", you can't let her go. And because you think she's "good", you don't want to put her through the reality of a breakup. But putting her instead through the reality of staying longer and wasting more time in a truly unhealthy relationship isn't a kindness. You have to be strong enough (for her and for you) to do what needs to be done, even if it is hard and harsh and ugly. And you've said all the things about this that can be said. She still isn't going to her it if you say them again.
So the time has passed for explaining this. You need to grow some courage and ACT. And it is not a kindness to explain (what has already been explained ad naseum) and soften and capitulate. Right now, the kindness is letting her go, and doing it in a way that lets her know, WITH CERTAINTY, that this is OVER. Fully over. Not "we will see in a year" or anything like that. Don't offer explanations, as those just give her things with which to argue. Any opening will be an opportunity for her to twist things to try to talk you out of it. Simply tell her that the relationship has run its course, you wish her well, but you are ending the relationship. And no matter what she says, repeat some version of that, even if it gets awkward. "But baby, I'll have crazy sex with you tonight." "No, the relationship is over. It just didn't work out." "But if we went to therapy more..." "I'm sorry, but my answer isn't going to change. I'm breaking up with you." "But why? You owe me an explanation." "We've talked about the 'whys' for months, or really even years. The aren't going to change. I know this sucks, but it is time to move on." "But..." Repeat, repeat, repeat. It will get awkward, but do not give her ways to refute or engage. And then, just say, "look, I've said everything that can be said. I'm sorry you are sad, but nothing will come from continue to go around in circles on this." And then leave to end the conversation.
We will assume she's a nice person, and you are too. What you need to do is see that you are not treating her with the kindness she deserves by allowing her to cling to hope. You want to be decent to her; that's very clear in your posts. But you are confusing gentleness with kindness. They are not the same. it is cruel--yes, you are being cruel to her (and to yourself, but it seems like you frame everything in terms of her) but avoiding concrete answers and unambiguous words and direct conversations.
Breakups are horrific. I'm sorry you are dealing with all this. But you are being terrible to both her and yourself but not being crystal clear about things.
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I am going to tell you a brief story in the hopes that it will push you over the edge into doing the right thing.
I am polyamorous. I have a monogamous roommate. We lived together for nearly a year before she decided to break her "I don't date poly people rule" -- we were together for the next eight months, which were some of the best eight months of my life. I never expected to meet another partner I was that compatible with -- we did not have to work hard for our relationship to work. We just...worked. We were compatible in basically every way that mattered, except she has a monogamous brain and I have a polyamorous brain. Sex life was spectacular. We had no financial drama, not once in the 1.5yr+ that we lived together have we fought or argued, and we both (even still) love each other immensely.
She recently became interested in someone who wants a monogamous relationship, which is ultimately what she wants. It has been an exceptionally hard adjustment period for me, but fundamentally I know that she is making the right choice for her future. I would never take that from her or ask her to reconsider.
I have loved only twice in my 35 years on this earth, and I am willing to let this aspect of us go because it is the right thing for her.
Do the same for yourself.
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Understand this: if you marry this girl, she will not have sex with you during the marriage. You will be signing up for a lifetime of celibacy.
Possibly, and the setup is that the sex is a tool of manipulation. Not a good setup for a wonderful lifelong relationship.
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Yes being in limbo is not sustainable. However once we separate/break up-I'm not opposed to the idea of leaving a door open in the future. I think we both have things to work out and figure out on our own but I could see her as a life partner at some point.
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Yes being in limbo is not sustainable. However once we separate/break up-I'm not opposed to the idea of leaving a door open in the future. I think we both have things to work out and figure out on our own but I could see her as a life partner at some point.
Do you think she will develop a libido after a year apart?
Will you decide you want kids?
Keeping this relationship as an option makes it that much harder to move on, and it prevents both of you from fully experiencing single life apart from the influence of the other. Make a clean break. Allow yourself to do things for yourself and break this cycle of codependency.
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Yes being in limbo is not sustainable. However once we separate/break up-I'm not opposed to the idea of leaving a door open in the future. I think we both have things to work out and figure out on our own but I could see her as a life partner at some point.
This is a really dangerous thing to do - by suggesting it, you'll counterintuitively be letting her think that she doesn't have to do that personal growth and figuring things out. If you tell her this, she'll hear that you need to figure some things out, and then you'll be ready to come back to her.
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Keeping a door open can mean lots of things. As long as it means something different from commitment to monogamy and weekly calls, you might be onto something.
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Yes being in limbo is not sustainable. However once we separate/break up-I'm not opposed to the idea of leaving a door open in the future. I think we both have things to work out and figure out on our own but I could see her as a life partner at some point.
That is just another way of being in limbo. Don't do it, either to you or to her.
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I'm going to set the relationship stuff aside because I think you've received very good input already on that front.
***************************************************************************
But as for your chat with your current employer tomorrow, please read this post first.
https://www.askamanager.org/2012/03/why-you-shouldnt-take-a-counteroffer.html
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DONT TAKE THE COUNTEROFFER!
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$22 / hr x 2080 hours annually = $45,700
New job pays $65K anually to start. That seems like a 40% increase. Am I missing something here ?
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$22 / hr x 2080 hours annually = $45,700
New job pays $65K anually to start. That seems like a 40% increase. Am I missing something here ?
Assuming the current position offers me salary around 60k once I mention the next job+benefits.
Also I'm able to scrape 500-1000/month on side jobs in this local area.
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Yes being in limbo is not sustainable. However once we separate/break up-I'm not opposed to the idea of leaving a door open in the future. I think we both have things to work out and figure out on our own but I could see her as a life partner at some point.
This is a really dangerous thing to do - by suggesting it, you'll counterintuitively be letting her think that she doesn't have to do that personal growth and figuring things out. If you tell her this, she'll hear that you need to figure some things out, and then you'll be ready to come back to her.
I definitely do need to; but so does she (despite her telling me she knows what she wants)
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$22 / hr x 2080 hours annually = $45,700
New job pays $65K anually to start. That seems like a 40% increase. Am I missing something here ?
Yeah, not sure if you caught the last 17 pages or so, but the OP is in a co-dependent relationship, that seemingly no amount of reason, pressure, ridicule, money, or prospects for sex can motivate him to get out off.
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I'm going to set the relationship stuff aside because I think you've received very good input already on that front.
***************************************************************************
But as for your chat with your current employer tomorrow, please read this post first.
https://www.askamanager.org/2012/03/why-you-shouldnt-take-a-counteroffer.html
***************************************************************************
DONT TAKE THE COUNTEROFFER!
That made some interesting points. Some which don't seem applicable but some which could be/are. Really you never know what's going on behind the scenes
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
Read the post I wrote earlier today. You're fundamentally incompatible. You want different things in life.
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
What do you hope using this disclaimer will accomplish?
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Take the new job and break up with your girlfriend. It’s in your best interests. You are young and time for a new start.
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
What do you hope using this disclaimer will accomplish?
Exactly what it says. I'm not opposed to getting married if after being apart for a while we change our ideals or such to the point where we are on the same page. The chances of the happening are slim to slimmer; however I wouldn't have been in this relationship for this long if I wasn't interested in the long haul to some degree.
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
What do you hope using this disclaimer will accomplish?
Exactly what it says. I'm not opposed to getting married if after being apart for a while we change our ideals or such to the point where we are on the same page. The chances of the happening are slim to slimmer; however I wouldn't have been in this relationship for this long if I wasn't interested in the long haul to some degree.
If the chances are slim, why say it at all? It's going to make her think you're on a break. Is that what you want? To go on a break?
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
Just leave off that last sentence. What purpose does it serve? To soften the blow? That should NOT be your goal right now.
Look, even if you don't say that last part, it's not as though you are forbidden from getting back together if you don't throw that in. It is NOT a kindess to either her or you.
It is almost certainly going to be a TERRIBLE idea, but if, in a year, you want to get back together with her and you feel everyone has "figured out" whatever it is you think would solve all this, you can get back together with her without have stipulated that fact in the break up. So it serves no purpose other than to assuage your guilt about breaking up with her, and leading her on and preventing her (and you) from moving forward with the mentality that this is over.
I, and everyone here, can tell you why it's a terrible idea to say that. Can you tell us what GOOD it actually serves? What it accomplishes that is healthy and valuable?
I, and everyone here, can tell you why it's a terrible idea to say that. Can you tell us what GOOD it actually serves? What it accomplishes that is healthy and valuable?
Okay, it's a teeny tiny bit possible you get back together. It's still just as possible if you don't say that. Unless you think not saying it will allow her to move on, and you are trying to prevent that. In which case you are kind of a dick, and I don't think you are.
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
Amazing! Except for that last sentence. That is limbo, and she will not treat it as a break up.
She will latch on to that and assume this is a period of mutual self exploration, at the end of which will be what she wants. Just end it. If one or both of you somehow magically changes and realizes life is too hard without each other, you've all gone to individual therapy, worked on your barriers, fit so perfectly, want amazing sex and all the babies and rings and shit, well, the door will be open. You know where to find each other. You don't need to say that now, though.
You need to end the relationship. Actually end it. Like, good luck moving on without me, forever.
If nothing else, take pity on all of us readers, and end this months-long cliffhanger. (Months? It can't be months, right? *Checks first post* April 2nd.)
I have experience breaking up with someone who didn't realize we were breaking up. It's harder the second time, believe me.
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
What do you hope using this disclaimer will accomplish?
Exactly what it says. I'm not opposed to getting married if after being apart for a while we change our ideals or such to the point where we are on the same page. The chances of the happening are slim to slimmer; however I wouldn't have been in this relationship for this long if I wasn't interested in the long haul to some degree.
"I'm not opposed to getting married if we are different people later."
See how ridiculous that is?
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
Amazing! Except for that last sentence. That is limbo, and she will not treat it as a break up.
She will latch on to that and assume this is a period of mutual self exploration, at the end of which will be what she wants. Just end it. If one or both of you somehow magically changes and realizes life is too hard without each other, you've all gone to individual therapy, worked on your barriers, fit so perfectly, want amazing sex and all the babies and rings and shit, well, the door will be open. You know where to find each other. You don't need to say that now, though.
You need to end the relationship. Actually end it. Like, good luck moving on without me, forever.
If nothing else, take pity on all of us readers, and end this months-long cliffhanger. (Months? It can't be months, right? *Checks first post* April 2nd. Dang)
I have experience breaking up with someone who didn't realize we were breaking up. It's harder the second time, believe me.
This has been months and I think that's why it's been so crazy. We've just actually come to light the differences of opinion in april vs never mentioning it the other 7 years. As much as it's being drug out; a lot has been both of us ignoring it back and forth, consoling, locked in a loop, etc. This job offer is honestly the perfect timing because up until now I just felt the day to day pressure with no option that I felt ok with. Shoot I still feel like garbage regardless of what I do.
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
What do you hope using this disclaimer will accomplish?
Exactly what it says. I'm not opposed to getting married if after being apart for a while we change our ideals or such to the point where we are on the same page. The chances of the happening are slim to slimmer; however I wouldn't have been in this relationship for this long if I wasn't interested in the long haul to some degree.
"I'm not opposed to getting married if we are different people later."
See how ridiculous that is?
Well based on how my parents relationship changed over years/they ended up divorced; I know it's possible for people to change fairly drastically over time. I would say current me is very different from 18 year old me.
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
Amazing! Except for that last sentence. That is limbo, and she will not treat it as a break up.
She will latch on to that and assume this is a period of mutual self exploration, at the end of which will be what she wants. Just end it. If one or both of you somehow magically changes and realizes life is too hard without each other, you've all gone to individual therapy, worked on your barriers, fit so perfectly, want amazing sex and all the babies and rings and shit, well, the door will be open. You know where to find each other. You don't need to say that now, though.
You need to end the relationship. Actually end it. Like, good luck moving on without me, forever.
If nothing else, take pity on all of us readers, and end this months-long cliffhanger. (Months? It can't be months, right? *Checks first post* April 2nd. Dang)
I have experience breaking up with someone who didn't realize we were breaking up. It's harder the second time, believe me.
This has been months and I think that's why it's been so crazy. We've just actually come to light the differences of opinion in april vs never mentioning it the other 7 years. As much as it's being drug out; a lot has been both of us ignoring it back and forth, consoling, locked in a loop, etc. This job offer is honestly the perfect timing because up until now I just felt the day to day pressure with no option that I felt ok with. Shoot I still feel like garbage regardless of what I do.
If you go through with a final break up you may feel like garbage for a few days. If you don't go through with a final break up you will feel like garbage for the rest of your life.
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She needs to be given the opportunity to meet a man who wants marriage and is ready for marriage soon. You are not there right now. That is OK!
A break for her will hurt her, but she will recover and get on with her life. And that is what she needs to do. She can't find her husband if she is waiting around for you when you are not ready.
I had a boyfriend once tell me that I needed someone to marry and have babies with. He made it very clear that he was not that guy. I appreciated it in the long run. It's not good to waste your time and emotional energy with people who have different goals than you do.
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Why are you still talking about her as a potential life partner?
You have clearly and repeatedly explained that you're not willing to have an asexual marriage. That is an absolutely reasonable position. Instead of acknowledging your needs, she's opted to use them as leverage to try to push you into proposing: that's a shitty thing to do, and should be a colossal red flag. Why would you want to share your life with someone who does that?
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Why are you still talking about her as a potential life partner?
You have clearly and repeatedly explained that you're not willing to have an asexual marriage. That is an absolutely reasonable position. Instead of acknowledging your needs, she's opted to use them as leverage to try to push you into proposing: that's a shitty thing to do, and should be a colossal red flag. Why would you want to share your life with someone who does that?
I don't believe she's doing it vindictively. I think she's scared/when I did cheat I changed her perspective on sex. It would have been a lot easier to discuss a few years in vs now though. She doesn't want to have sex unless we're married because she doesn't want to be vulnerable unless it's to someone who's building that future. I know i'm not ready for marriage right now for several reasons (career/financial is a big one for me but not the only reason). I'd share my life with her if I got to the point where I was comfortable in a marriage perspective with our goals lining up and she could establish her sexuality; because as people we're very compatible. These are fundamentals and probably won't change but if I could Thanos snap my fingers just to see "what could happen" I'd be very interested.
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She needs to be given the opportunity to meet a man who wants marriage and is ready for marriage soon. You are not there right now. That is OK!
A break for her will hurt her, but she will recover and get on with her life. And that is what she needs to do. She can't find her husband if she is waiting around for you when you are not ready.
I had a boyfriend once tell me that I needed someone to marry and have babies with. He made it very clear that he was not that guy. I appreciated it in the long run. It's not good to waste your time and emotional energy with people who have different goals than you do.
And I've said that- I've said you can definitely find someone whose goals line up with yours-I know how important it is for you to have kids in this timeframe and be married. She just says she doesn't want anyone else etc etc. I've tried to make it clear we have different goals.
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Why are you still talking about her as a potential life partner?
You have clearly and repeatedly explained that you're not willing to have an asexual marriage. That is an absolutely reasonable position. Instead of acknowledging your needs, she's opted to use them as leverage to try to push you into proposing: that's a shitty thing to do, and should be a colossal red flag. Why would you want to share your life with someone who does that?
I don't believe she's doing it vindictively. I think she's scared/when I did cheat I changed her perspective on sex. It would have been a lot easier to discuss a few years in vs now though. She doesn't want to have sex unless we're married because she doesn't want to be vulnerable unless it's to someone who's building that future. I know i'm not ready for marriage right now for several reasons (career/financial is a big one for me but not the only reason). I'd share my life with her if I got to the point where I was comfortable in a marriage perspective with our goals lining up and she could establish her sexuality; because as people we're very compatible. These are fundamentals and probably won't change but if I could Thanos snap my fingers just to see "what could happen" I'd be very interested.
Whether she's doing it vindictively or not is irrelevant. It's a shitty thing to do regardless of whether she "means it" or not. You've already explained her point of view several times and that does not change anything about it. Since you know the fundamentals are unlikely to change, there's no reason to dangle a carrot in front of her. I get it, you want to leave the door open a crack because you've never known anything else, and a untenable situation you're familiar with is less scary than the unknown, even when the unknown could be worlds better. Everybody on earth clings to the devil they know sometimes, you're not alone. But I bet eventually you're realize that not closing this door all the way just lets more trouble through.
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Why are you still talking about her as a potential life partner?
You have clearly and repeatedly explained that you're not willing to have an asexual marriage. That is an absolutely reasonable position. Instead of acknowledging your needs, she's opted to use them as leverage to try to push you into proposing: that's a shitty thing to do, and should be a colossal red flag. Why would you want to share your life with someone who does that?
I don't believe she's doing it vindictively. I think she's scared/when I did cheat I changed her perspective on sex. It would have been a lot easier to discuss a few years in vs now though. She doesn't want to have sex unless we're married because she doesn't want to be vulnerable unless it's to someone who's building that future. I know i'm not ready for marriage right now for several reasons (career/financial is a big one for me but not the only reason). I'd share my life with her if I got to the point where I was comfortable in a marriage perspective with our goals lining up and she could establish her sexuality; because as people we're very compatible. These are fundamentals and probably won't change but if I could Thanos snap my fingers just to see "what could happen" I'd be very interested.
She's not scared. She's just not attracted to you, buddy. She may have been once, a long time ago, but she is not anymore. Maybe you are holding to the idea that "she could establish her sexuality" with your under the right circumstances to protect your ego a bit, idk. But face the facts man. You are constantly talking in circles here in a desperate effort to make sense of why you've spent 7 years in a platonic relationship.
I get it, hindsight can be too painful. And people of a certain age who want kids will frantically cling to an ill-suited partner because the thing they are most scared about is starting over and ending up childless. You can't rationalize her into accepting (1) your point of view, (2) your man-splaining about how she'll be better off, or (3) a mutual break up. It just needs to end.
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Why are you still talking about her as a potential life partner?
You have clearly and repeatedly explained that you're not willing to have an asexual marriage. That is an absolutely reasonable position. Instead of acknowledging your needs, she's opted to use them as leverage to try to push you into proposing: that's a shitty thing to do, and should be a colossal red flag. Why would you want to share your life with someone who does that?
I don't believe she's doing it vindictively. I think she's scared/when I did cheat I changed her perspective on sex. It would have been a lot easier to discuss a few years in vs now though. She doesn't want to have sex unless we're married because she doesn't want to be vulnerable unless it's to someone who's building that future. I know i'm not ready for marriage right now for several reasons (career/financial is a big one for me but not the only reason). I'd share my life with her if I got to the point where I was comfortable in a marriage perspective with our goals lining up and she could establish her sexuality; because as people we're very compatible. These are fundamentals and probably won't change but if I could Thanos snap my fingers just to see "what could happen" I'd be very interested.
How many times will you explain your story, your position, her position? Do you have a limit? Because it looks like you dont. I wonder what deep seated need you are filling by explaining to strangers on the internet the story of you and your fiancée, over snd over. What are you getting out of it?
No answer required.
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You *should* feel like garbage if you continue to give her what even you admit is almost certainly false hope. She may be angry, but setting her free is the kind thing to do. Continuing to dangle hope that you know is the slimmest of chances is a garbage thing to do. Yet you want to do it because it is the *easier* (but still hard, yes), thing to do. That's cowardly, and it unkind to her.
So if you don't want to do the garbage thing, don't prevent her from moving on, like she almost certainly should. You are confusing "hard and sad" with "mean and garbage-y", when in this case, not only are they not the same, they are opposites.
And yet again, what does leaving that dangle of hope into your speech accomplish, other than making this slightly easier for you in that moment? Does NOT saying it close any doors permanently? No, it does not. So they only thing it accomplishes is some short term easing of bad feelings, and some long term damage to both of you.
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She needs to be given the opportunity to meet a man who wants marriage and is ready for marriage soon. You are not there right now. That is OK!
A break for her will hurt her, but she will recover and get on with her life. And that is what she needs to do. She can't find her husband if she is waiting around for you when you are not ready.
I had a boyfriend once tell me that I needed someone to marry and have babies with. He made it very clear that he was not that guy. I appreciated it in the long run. It's not good to waste your time and emotional energy with people who have different goals than you do.
And I've said that- I've said you can definitely find someone whose goals line up with yours-I know how important it is for you to have kids in this timeframe and be married. She just says she doesn't want anyone else etc etc. I've tried to make it clear we have different goals.
You have to be strong and rip the band aid off then. She will be OK. So will you.
Also, you cheated on her when you were dating? Then she decided not to have sex anymore. Get out of her life and let her move on. She thinks you are unreliable and she seems to be right about that. Cut the cord. It's too bad she doesn't have the guts to dump you. She should have.
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Not saying it does not close any doors; I get it. I just expect the "my sister and her husband broke up for a year and ended up getting married after-could that happen" question comes through.
I'm just trying to get my thoughts/words straightened out before tomorrow night. Tomorrow in general is a big day.
I don't want to break up. I don't want to stay in this holding pattern. I don't want to get married. Pick one and roll with it.
I have my consoling tonight and a big line that stuck with me is "there are no wrong choices you just have to pick one". I don't know why my mind and thoughts and feelings are so aligned with a sense of duty to a girl who isn't my wife/I don't have kids with etc-but it's almost crazy how much I care about her well being. I understand though.
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She needs to be given the opportunity to meet a man who wants marriage and is ready for marriage soon. You are not there right now. That is OK!
A break for her will hurt her, but she will recover and get on with her life. And that is what she needs to do. She can't find her husband if she is waiting around for you when you are not ready.
I had a boyfriend once tell me that I needed someone to marry and have babies with. He made it very clear that he was not that guy. I appreciated it in the long run. It's not good to waste your time and emotional energy with people who have different goals than you do.
And I've said that- I've said you can definitely find someone whose goals line up with yours-I know how important it is for you to have kids in this timeframe and be married. She just says she doesn't want anyone else etc etc. I've tried to make it clear we have different goals.
You have to be strong and rip the band aid off then. She will be OK. So will you.
Also, you cheated on her when you were dating? Then she decided not to have sex anymore. Get out of her life and let her move on.
Yeah I'm more worried about her well being than mine; there's a name for it (worrying about things you won't be able to control out of feeling obligations).
Yep that's way back in the beginning. Several months in. I was a shitty kid. Might have something to do with this overdeveloped sense of duty towards her.
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She needs to be given the opportunity to meet a man who wants marriage and is ready for marriage soon. You are not there right now. That is OK!
A break for her will hurt her, but she will recover and get on with her life. And that is what she needs to do. She can't find her husband if she is waiting around for you when you are not ready.
I had a boyfriend once tell me that I needed someone to marry and have babies with. He made it very clear that he was not that guy. I appreciated it in the long run. It's not good to waste your time and emotional energy with people who have different goals than you do.
And I've said that- I've said you can definitely find someone whose goals line up with yours-I know how important it is for you to have kids in this timeframe and be married. She just says she doesn't want anyone else etc etc. I've tried to make it clear we have different goals.
You have to be strong and rip the band aid off then. She will be OK. So will you.
Also, you cheated on her when you were dating? Then she decided not to have sex anymore. Get out of her life and let her move on.
Yeah I'm more worried about her well being than mine; there's a name for it (worrying about things you won't be able to control out of feeling obligations).
Yep that's way back in the beginning. Several months in. I was a shitty kid. Might have something to do with this overdeveloped sense of duty towards her. Since then I've literally based everything I could around her. Bought the house she wanted to move into. Make her dinner/do food runs all the time. Pay the bills. My therapy lady described it as I almost viewed her as a child.
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It sounds totally unhealthy for both of you. I'm sorry, but go fix it.
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Worrying about how to respond to all her counters and questions is why I advised having a very basic message and repeating it frequently, no matter what direction she tried to drag you. She mentions that couple she knew that broke up and got back together; you repeat your message, even if it doesn't directly address what she has just said. "I know this is hard, but it's simply not going to work." "But what if blah blah blah." "The relationship has run its course and it's time for us to move on." "But maybe in 6 months..." "We've tried what we can, and it's clear to me that we need to end things."
You aren't obligated to directly address all of her attempts to dodge and change your mind, and in fact it is far better if you don't. If you allow her to get you into specifics, she has things she can argue and rationalize. Don't do that. After a few cycles, it's not only okay, but best if you say, "I understnad you are upset, but nothing you say is going to change this, and I think I've said all that can be said. Nothing productive will come from continuing to talk about this, so I'm going to wish you the best and leave." And then walk out, even if she's begging and pleading behind you. And remind yourself that this is best, for her and for you.
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Yeah I'm more worried about her well being than mine;
She is not worried about your well being. This imbalance automatically means you should never ever ever ever ever marry this person.
Such a feeling imbalance is really common when you're being gaslighted. You're being gaslighted. GTFO. (O means "out".)
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A line from the Book of the Samurai comes to mind:
"In the words of the ancients, one should make his decisions within the space of seven breaths.... It is a matter of being determined and having the spirit to break right through to the other side."
It's time to inhale, exhale, and punch through the wall so that your life can progress.
(1) Girlfriend.
You need a clean break. Make it clear that the relationship is ending and you are both now free to see other people.
If you leave the door open even a bit, she will cling to hope and won't let go. You will prevent her from moving on, and this will become an ongoing source of emotional torture.
Sure, I suppose if y'all are truly meant to be, you will find your way back to each other some day. But by no means should you tell her that you are entertaining this as a possibility.
(2) Job.
It sounds like, best-case scenario, a counter-offer could bump you to the top of your earning potential at the current company. Meanwhile the new company is offering lots of opportunities for growth. If you stay at your current job, you'd be cutting your career off at the knees.
Why not go into the meeting with your boss prepared to resign? Again, make a clean break instead of dragging this out with rounds of discussion and negotiation.
Break on through. Enter the future!
Good luck.
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Is it limbo if we aren't in contact/treating it as a break up? I mean that's the thing- I'm not going to say "oh stay in the house a year while I go work down there and then I'll be cool"
I'm going to say something like "I love you but we can't stay in limbo like this. It's not a situation where anything will change and it's unfair to both of us. I'm selling/renting the house. I'm taking the job in TX. Neither of us have made any ground on meeting the others needs in the last x months in the relationship and we need to separate. I'm open to leaving a door open once we've had time to figure ourselves out apart but right now this is what is going to happen. "
Just leave off that last sentence. What purpose does it serve? To soften the blow? That should NOT be your goal right now.
Look, even if you don't say that last part, it's not as though you are forbidden from getting back together if you don't throw that in. It is NOT a kindess to either her or you.
It is almost certainly going to be a TERRIBLE idea, but if, in a year, you want to get back together with her and you feel everyone has "figured out" whatever it is you think would solve all this, you can get back together with her without have stipulated that fact in the break up. So it serves no purpose other than to assuage your guilt about breaking up with her, and leading her on and preventing her (and you) from moving forward with the mentality that this is over.
I, and everyone here, can tell you why it's a terrible idea to say that. Can you tell us what GOOD it actually serves? What it accomplishes that is healthy and valuable?
I, and everyone here, can tell you why it's a terrible idea to say that. Can you tell us what GOOD it actually serves? What it accomplishes that is healthy and valuable?
Okay, it's a teeny tiny bit possible you get back together. It's still just as possible if you don't say that. Unless you think not saying it will allow her to move on, and you are trying to prevent that. In which case you are kind of a dick, and I don't think you are.
If they truly break up and have no talk about leaving a door open, they won't be able to get back together in a year, because a year from now she will be balls deep into wedding planning with the new guy she found to have a wedding and babies with.
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***But you are confusing gentleness with kindness. They are not the same. it is cruel--yes, you are being cruel to her (and to yourself, but it seems like you frame everything in terms of her) but avoiding concrete answers and unambiguous words and direct conversations. ****
Quote from above put this song into my head -
Cruel to be Kind
(originally by Nick Lowe)
Oh, I can't take another heartache
Though you say you're my friend
I'm at my wits end
You say your love is bona fide
But that don't coincide
With the things that you do
And when I ask you to be nice
You say you gotta be
Cruel to be kind, in the right measure
Cruel to be kind, it's a very good sign
Cruel to be kind, means that I love you
Baby (you gotta be cruel)
You gotta be cruel to be kind
Well I do my best to understand dear
But you still mystify, and I wanna know why
I pick myself up off the ground
To have you knock me back down
Again and again
And when I ask you to explain
You say you gotta be
Cruel to be kind, in the right measure
Cruel to be kind, it's a very good sign
Cruel to be kind, means that I love you
Baby (you gotta be cruel)
You gotta be cruel to be kind
Well I do my best to understand dear
But you still mystify, and I wanna know why
I pick myself up off the ground
To have you knock me back down
Again and again
And when I ask you to explain
You say you gotta be
Cruel to be kind, in the right measure
Cruel to be kind, it's a very good sign
Cruel to be kind, means that I love you
Baby (you gotta be cruel)
You gotta be cruel to be kind
(Cruel to be kind), in the right measure
(Cruel to be kind), it's a very, very, very good sign
(Cruel to be kind), means that I love you
Baby (you gotta be cruel)
You gotta be cruel to be kind
Invest 4 minutes of your life - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0l3QWUXVho
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Well sleeping on the couch currently. Lastnight she asked me about the job and the house and i said I'm probably taking it/selling the house
She broke down saying we should break up. I'm obviously just leaving and giving up. I don't want to get married and she hasn't been listening.
It's just sad. She sent me a whole story from a family friends husband who just took care of his wife as she died from cancer and talked about how she would do that for me. The thing is I love her enough that I'd do that for her-but that's what she associates marriage with-being there no matter what to old age.
Idk I'm going to the boss at the current job this morning. Just a super weird sad mood.
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It is very sad when someone you love is not on the same page with a fundamental issue. You simply want different things and neither's needs are being met. The kindest thing you can do is to take the new job and give each other some space to move forward in your lives, as you are currently going in unproductive circles.
Ultimately you want her to find the right guy to marry/have kids/be there no matter what till old age. And you should find your ideal partner too.
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Good developments, sounds like she finally heard what you were saying. Of course it hurts, but at least now she's not living in fantasy-land where you'll magically change your mind and everything will go as she planned.
Here's the thing you need to understand: Love IS NOT ENOUGH to make a good marriage. Love is fantastic, and I'd never get married without it, but it is not the only factor, and I would argue, not even the most important one. It doesn't matter how much you love someone if your life goals aren't aligned.
My sister got divorced last year, despite still being 100% in love with her husband, and he with her, because of this exact issue. She had always known she wanted children, and he wasn't sure but figured he'd want them 'soon.' Three years later, he realized 'soon' was 'maybe never,' he couldn't be what she wanted in her life, and they had to separate if they were going to be happy long term. This is worse than if they'd never been married at all - she's spent three years of her life following him where his career took him, putting her career on hold, has much less savings than she otherwise would, had to pay all the legal fees for the divorce, and has a spotty employment history to boot. Don't let this story be your life.
I'd advise you to continue sleeping on the couch until she's moved out. This will cement that it is really over, and not just a fight. Does she have a timeline for moving back to her mom's?
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Focus on the job stuff today. Get that job in Texas locked up. That will help you have your future to look forward to. Then, sell your house. It IS over with the girlfriend. Now you just have to work through the transition. Stay strong and look to the future, not the past.
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As far as her timeline-she's looking to move right away and mentioned cutting off all contact for at least a few months. The issue is she has a lot of stuff here and can't take it all. I'm probably buying some but also thinking of hiring a moving company for a day just to expedite.
It's just sad. I want to comfort her and such but there's really no middle ground here. Currently at work finishing up a proposal then will get my boss in the office.
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
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I'm sorry it hurts. It will get better.
The issue is she has a lot of stuff here and can't take it all. I'm probably buying some but also thinking of hiring a moving company for a day just to expedite.
You are moving a long distance, moving things a long distance is very expensive, and I can't see that having your ex's belongings around you as you start your new life is a good idea. By all means help with getting your ex's belongings out of your house by hiring a moving company, but that doesn't mean you have to weigh yourself down with those belongings or dealing with what is done with them after they leave the house. Ways of disposing of household goods include local auction houses and ebay/facebook/craigslist for things worth selling, charity collections (Vietnam vets), charity shops for things which are still useful but not worth your ex selling herself. I particularly recommend women's shelters as needing household goods for women who are moving on from the shelter to new lives. If all the disposal will take your ex more time than you have for putting the house on the market, your ex finding (and paying for) temporary storage is the solution.
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Well sleeping on the couch currently. Lastnight she asked me about the job and the house and i said I'm probably taking it/selling the house
She broke down saying we should break up. I'm obviously just leaving and giving up. I don't want to get married and she hasn't been listening.
This must be incredibly hard for you both. But it sounds like she is beginning to accept the situation. That's good -- the sooner this happens, the sooner she can move on with her life.
You have to ignore the guilt-trip rhetoric about you "giving up." There were irreconcilable differences on both sides. Someone had to finally stick a fork in it.
You'll get through this.
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I'm sorry it hurts. It will get better.
The issue is she has a lot of stuff here and can't take it all. I'm probably buying some but also thinking of hiring a moving company for a day just to expedite.
You are moving a long distance, moving things a long distance is very expensive, and I can't see that having your ex's belongings around you as you start your new life is a good idea. By all means help with getting your ex's belongings out of your house by hiring a moving company, but that doesn't mean you have to weigh yourself down with those belongings or dealing with what is done with them after they leave the house. Ways of disposing of household goods include local auction houses and ebay/facebook/craigslist for things worth selling, charity collections (Vietnam vets), charity shops for things which are still useful but not worth your ex selling herself. I particularly recommend women's shelters as needing household goods for women who are moving on from the shelter to new lives. If all the disposal will take your ex more time than you have for putting the house on the market, your ex finding (and paying for) temporary storage is the solution.
I just feel responsible for her feelings.
She has some nice furniture and such; but I would be purchasing it to furnish with the house for sale/out of kindness-not to take with me. She's definitely a home maker and all her stuff she likes/hand picked so the fact she won't have space for it is a bit difficult. I'll have to discuss it further.
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
I mean that's it; I don't have to be married to care deeply about her. I'd take care of her if she was sick-shoot I have for years. I think she associates marriage with that unequivocal bond though.
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It is very sad when someone you love is not on the same page with a fundamental issue. You simply want different things and neither's needs are being met. The kindest thing you can do is to take the new job and give each other some space to move forward in your lives, as you are currently going in unproductive circles.
Ultimately you want her to find the right guy to marry/have kids/be there no matter what till old age. And you should find your ideal partner too.
Well yeah, I don't want to break up; but it's entirely selfish and unreasonable to not break up when neither of us is fundamentally gaining ground.
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
+1 That manipulative appeal to your guilt is proof positive that you're making the right decision. It might not be the last time she tries something like that to pull you back in.
Big ups to you for finally making the move. I know it's very hard and painful. I assure you the pain and difficulty will be worth it.
You also don't have to buy her furniture "as a kindness." You're not doing her dirty by breaking up with her and you don't "owe" her, no matter how much she insists that you do.
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
+1 That manipulative appeal to your guilt is proof positive that you're making the right decision. It might not be the last time she tries something like that to pull you back in.
Big ups to you for finally making the move. I know it's very hard and painful. I assure you the pain and difficulty will be worth it.
You also don't have to buy her furniture "as a kindness." You're not doing her dirty by breaking up with her and you don't "owe" her, no matter how much she insists that you do.
I just thought it may be easier; in terms of staging the house; mitigating how long it takes her to allocate things; etc etc.
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Have you discussed this with her or is this you thinking for her?
If she's so attached to her stuff I cannot imagine how it would makes sense that you buy it. If she doesn't have space she could store them in a storage unit for a year until she gets her own place. She's 25ish right? So she should have a job and be able to move into a place not her mom's within a reasonable time frame after you guys break up.
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Have you discussed this with her or is this you thinking for her?
If she's so attached to her stuff I cannot imagine how it would makes sense that you buy it. If she doesn't have space she could store them in a storage unit for a year until she gets her own place. She's 25ish right? So she should have a job and be able to move into a place not her mom's within a reasonable time frame after you guys break up.
Her mom has a larger condo with an available basement like 10 minutes away. It's also close to her fathers and her new job (she starts middle of August as a preschool teacher). She's never lived on her own aside from with me and I think moving into her parents would be reasonable. The storage unit idea is a good one. I know she's not like bat shit crazy attached to things but she definitely picked out a lot. I'll have to price out a unit.
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she picked out the furniture and likes it.
You're moving 1,600 miles.
Why would you???
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Why do you have to price out a storage unit if she wants to keep her stuff? Why would you buy it if you are moving away? Let her deal with her own shit, it's not your problem. She's 25 years old and she has a job, I think she can figure it out.
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I'll She'll have to price out a unit.
FTFY
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Don't treat her like a child. If she wants to keep her stuff, she can locate and pay for storage. By all means offer to buy any pieces you want to stage the house with, but don't handle everything for her. She's a functional adult, let her stand on her own two feet. She can make her own decision whether to sell to you, donate or sell to someone else, or keep.
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she picked out the furniture and likes it.
You're moving 1,600 miles.
Why would you???
To stage/sell with the house
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Why do you have to price out a storage unit if she wants to keep her stuff? Why would you buy it if you are moving away? Let her deal with her own shit, it's not your problem. She's 25 years old and she has a job, I think she can figure it out.
*Staging/so I have some stuff to sit on for the next X months. It's my issue as I don't know how quick her time frame would be vs me at least pulling out suggestions to make it easier
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
+1 That manipulative appeal to your guilt is proof positive that you're making the right decision. It might not be the last time she tries something like that to pull you back in.
Big ups to you for finally making the move. I know it's very hard and painful. I assure you the pain and difficulty will be worth it.
You also don't have to buy her furniture "as a kindness." You're not doing her dirty by breaking up with her and you don't "owe" her, no matter how much she insists that you do.
I just thought it may be easier; in terms of staging the house; mitigating how long it takes her to allocate things; etc etc.
If you want to allow her stuff to stay in the house while it is up for sale, you can certainly offer that as a kindness--free storage and time to make other plans. Don't buy stuff you don't really want and that will end up costing you money to move. There's a lot of space between, "I'll buy your stuff just to be nice," and "have your shit out by COB tomorrow". Explore that space. But give her a hard deadline up front, whether that's a specific date or "a week after I accept an offer on the house".
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Yeah I haven't even thought about how I'll sell the house....by owner (did one last summer) or by realtor. I was even considering getting a company to rent it....
Generally a better return over time. In my case my mrtg is 115k/MRSP is around 185-215k.
Renting would get 1500 or so a month. A company would charge one month/10% a month.
My stuff can be stored in my fathers garage/sold at least.
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I'll She'll have to price out a unit.
FTFY
+1.
She is still basically a child at 25 -- she has never lived on her own, and you are still trying to do things for her. Let her become an adult, finally.
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
+1 That manipulative appeal to your guilt is proof positive that you're making the right decision. It might not be the last time she tries something like that to pull you back in.
Big ups to you for finally making the move. I know it's very hard and painful. I assure you the pain and difficulty will be worth it.
You also don't have to buy her furniture "as a kindness." You're not doing her dirty by breaking up with her and you don't "owe" her, no matter how much she insists that you do.
I just thought it may be easier; in terms of staging the house; mitigating how long it takes her to allocate things; etc etc.
If you want to allow her stuff to stay in the house while it is up for sale, you can certainly offer that as a kindness--free storage and time to make other plans. Don't buy stuff you don't really want and that will end up costing you money to move. There's a lot of space between, "I'll buy your stuff just to be nice," and "have your shit out by COB tomorrow". Explore that space. But give her a hard deadline up front, whether that's a specific date or "a week after I accept an offer on the house".
I'm very sorry but I'm going to contradict the idea of letting her live in the home while you are gone. There is too much potential for damage to the property. This is like a divorce situation, and it's better to protect your asset and give her notice to move by the time you are leaving town. Then list with a realtor. Make a very clean break. When someone else is living in the house, it's even more final for her.
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I just feel responsible for her feelings.
Not your problem, and I think you got suckered into buying her a house because of her guilting you over 7 years. Her making you feel bad has worked for her for SEVEN YEARS. She's going to keep trying that tactic, but don't let it affect you. You are moving on. Now it's all business. The faster she moves, the better for both of you. I would offer to help her load and unload a truck and that's about it.
Also you will sell the house faster with a good realtor. Hire one.
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
+1 That manipulative appeal to your guilt is proof positive that you're making the right decision. It might not be the last time she tries something like that to pull you back in.
Big ups to you for finally making the move. I know it's very hard and painful. I assure you the pain and difficulty will be worth it.
You also don't have to buy her furniture "as a kindness." You're not doing her dirty by breaking up with her and you don't "owe" her, no matter how much she insists that you do.
I just thought it may be easier; in terms of staging the house; mitigating how long it takes her to allocate things; etc etc.
If you want to allow her stuff to stay in the house while it is up for sale, you can certainly offer that as a kindness--free storage and time to make other plans. Don't buy stuff you don't really want and that will end up costing you money to move. There's a lot of space between, "I'll buy your stuff just to be nice," and "have your shit out by COB tomorrow". Explore that space. But give her a hard deadline up front, whether that's a specific date or "a week after I accept an offer on the house".
I'm very sorry but I'm going to contradict the idea of letting her live in the home while you are gone. There is too much potential for damage to the property. This is like a divorce situation, and it's better to protect your asset and give her notice to move by the time you are leaving town. Then list with a realtor. Make a very clean break. When someone else is living in the house, it's even more final for her.
I was planning on renting the home or selling it prior to actually leaving. As in I was going to stay in it (depressing but hey.). As of last night she plans on moving to her moms pretty stat; although the actual sorting out of stuff will take time. She did mention no contact and that's for the best I just don't know how to coordinate that. Still waiting on my boss to give notice; he had meetings all morning and our lead boss just took him to lunch.
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Have you accepted the Texas offer yet?
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When would the new job start?
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Have you accepted the Texas offer yet?
Waiting to sign until I get my bosses attention (which should be in the next 30). I'll sign the edoc today on acceptance after that.
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When would the new job start?
So start date is AUG.5 but they can push that. Actual relocation would be up to 3 months expected.
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
+1 That manipulative appeal to your guilt is proof positive that you're making the right decision. It might not be the last time she tries something like that to pull you back in.
Big ups to you for finally making the move. I know it's very hard and painful. I assure you the pain and difficulty will be worth it.
You also don't have to buy her furniture "as a kindness." You're not doing her dirty by breaking up with her and you don't "owe" her, no matter how much she insists that you do.
I just thought it may be easier; in terms of staging the house; mitigating how long it takes her to allocate things; etc etc.
If you want to allow her stuff to stay in the house while it is up for sale, you can certainly offer that as a kindness--free storage and time to make other plans. Don't buy stuff you don't really want and that will end up costing you money to move. There's a lot of space between, "I'll buy your stuff just to be nice," and "have your shit out by COB tomorrow". Explore that space. But give her a hard deadline up front, whether that's a specific date or "a week after I accept an offer on the house".
I'm very sorry but I'm going to contradict the idea of letting her live in the home while you are gone. There is too much potential for damage to the property. This is like a divorce situation, and it's better to protect your asset and give her notice to move by the time you are leaving town. Then list with a realtor. Make a very clean break. When someone else is living in the house, it's even more final for her.
I was planning on renting the home or selling it prior to actually leaving. As in I was going to stay in it (depressing but hey.). As of last night she plans on moving to her moms pretty stat; although the actual sorting out of stuff will take time. She did mention no contact and that's for the best I just don't know how to coordinate that. Still waiting on my boss to give notice; he had meetings all morning and our lead boss just took him to lunch.
I think the no contact idea is extremely good and you should definitely do it. In terms of how to coordinate it: I would suggest that you figure out a fixed time period every week where you will agree to be out of the house so she can come get more stuff. Like, give her from 2-5 on Saturday afternoons. When she is finished, she can leave you a note on your kitchen table saying she's done, and leave the keys there.
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***She did mention no contact and that's for the best I just don't know how to coordinate that***
Simple, she moves her toiletries and clothes to her moms house asap. She gets the rest of her stuff, does her sorting, etc when you are at work. When you get home she is not there, when you leave for work , she is not there. When all her stuff is moved, she leaves the key inside and locks the door behind her on the way out.
You sort out stuff after work, you put it in piles you believe -- A] obviously hers B] Obviously yours C] pile of things you are unsure whose it is, with notes on items offering for her to take it if she wants , otherwise you will keep or dispose of.
Don't worry about staging , you are not selling a multi- million dollar home, many people like to see an empty space/ house and imagine their own stuff in it....
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***She did mention no contact and that's for the best I just don't know how to coordinate that***
Simple, she moves her toiletries and clothes to her moms house asap. She gets the rest of her stuff, does her sorting, etc when you are at work. When you get home she is not there, when you leave for work , she is not there. When all her stuff is moved, she leaves the key inside and locks the door behind her on the way out.
You sort out stuff after work, you put it in piles you believe -- A] obviously hers B] Obviously yours C] pile of things you are unsure whose it is, with notes on items offering for her to take it if she wants , otherwise you will keep or dispose of.
Don't worry about staging , you are not selling a multi- million dollar home, many people like to see an empty space/ house and imagine their own stuff in it....
This. This this this.
We've all (well, most of us) been through this. I went through an entire separation and divorce (including putting our house on the market and selling it) without ever seeing my ex-husband face to face after the day we split. It can be done.
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Thanks we may have to do something like that. I don't really know how else to. Seeing her physically hurts.
On another note I just talked to my boss. He's asked several times if I'm sure this is what I want but that the ball is moving forward towards hiring me directly. His boss is in office today from out of town and he said he would speak to him. I told him i'm looking to advance my career and compensation/overhead for growth would have to be seriously considerable but that I would at least look at it.
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Congratulations on the progress you have made in a short time. It must feel a bit overwhelming but you are making the right moves to set yourself up for future career and personal success.
As others have mentioned, this new job will be a great move for your career. It is much better to find yourself at the bottom of a career ladder with lots of room for growth than tapped out at the top and having to use the threat of leaving to eek out a bit of a salary increase. Even if your current job can meet or even slightly beat the offer you have from TX, the new offer will be a much better bet for your long-term salary and career trajectory.
I’ll keep checking in here to see how you are doing. Wishing you the best.
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Thanks we may have to do something like that. I don't really know how else to. Seeing her physically hurts.
On another note I just talked to my boss. He's asked several times if I'm sure this is what I want but that the ball is moving forward towards hiring me directly. His boss is in office today from out of town and he said he would speak to him. I told him i'm looking to advance my career and compensation/overhead for growth would have to be seriously considerable but that I would at least look at it.
I am in the process of the most painful heartbreak I have ever experienced - it gets easier with time. You will feel an improvement in a day or two. For me, mornings are hardest. I get better throughout the day, then start to dip again at night.
Every day or two shows a slight improvement. Remember that.
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Thanks we may have to do something like that. I don't really know how else to. Seeing her physically hurts.
On another note I just talked to my boss. He's asked several times if I'm sure this is what I want but that the ball is moving forward towards hiring me directly. His boss is in office today from out of town and he said he would speak to him. I told him i'm looking to advance my career and compensation/overhead for growth would have to be seriously considerable but that I would at least look at it.
I hope you don't take it! Better to give yourself room to grow.
I'm sorry you're in pain right now. It's OK to minimize your interactions. When you do have to interact, I would suggest aiming for respectful. My ex-husband kind of forced some awkward intimacies (bringing me his laundry to wash along with the kids' school uniforms that I'd askedfor, starting a serious discussion with me when I was in my pajamas) that I would rather he had avoided.
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San Antonio is a cool town. You're going to really like it there I am sure.
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This is definitely good. I’m sure it was a sucky conversation to have. But remember why people call this “ripping off the bandaid.” It hurts like hell for a shorter amount of time, and then you’re done.
Before last night, I’d characterize what you were doing as looking at the bandaid. Maybe picking at the edges a little, but that’s it.
She finally had no choice but to hear you. Notice that she was still trying to manipulate you: she said you should just break up because you aren’t even trying. That she would take care of you when you had terminal cancer — which, I’m sorry, sending you that story of true spousal devotion was just weak. And manipulative. She wants you to feel like shit so you will stay. That’s not spousal devotion. At all.
Focus on moving forward. Someone needed to do this. You did it. Don’t let her guilt you into trying to put the bandaid back on. It won’t stick, and it will just be ugly and uncomfortable. And it will only have to come off again, in the end.
+1 That manipulative appeal to your guilt is proof positive that you're making the right decision. It might not be the last time she tries something like that to pull you back in.
Big ups to you for finally making the move. I know it's very hard and painful. I assure you the pain and difficulty will be worth it.
You also don't have to buy her furniture "as a kindness." You're not doing her dirty by breaking up with her and you don't "owe" her, no matter how much she insists that you do.
I just thought it may be easier; in terms of staging the house; mitigating how long it takes her to allocate things; etc etc.
If you want to allow her stuff to stay in the house while it is up for sale, you can certainly offer that as a kindness--free storage and time to make other plans. Don't buy stuff you don't really want and that will end up costing you money to move. There's a lot of space between, "I'll buy your stuff just to be nice," and "have your shit out by COB tomorrow". Explore that space. But give her a hard deadline up front, whether that's a specific date or "a week after I accept an offer on the house".
I'm very sorry but I'm going to contradict the idea of letting her live in the home while you are gone. There is too much potential for damage to the property. This is like a divorce situation, and it's better to protect your asset and give her notice to move by the time you are leaving town. Then list with a realtor. Make a very clean break. When someone else is living in the house, it's even more final for her.
To clarify, I definitely didn't mean allowing her to live there! I meant giving her time to figure out what to do with her furniture, after she immediately moves out and into her mom's house.
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San Antonio is a cool town. You're going to really like it there I am sure.
It was busy hah. Downtown is definitely a tourist spot but I do have 2 friends in the area.
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Thanks we may have to do something like that. I don't really know how else to. Seeing her physically hurts.
On another note I just talked to my boss. He's asked several times if I'm sure this is what I want but that the ball is moving forward towards hiring me directly. His boss is in office today from out of town and he said he would speak to him. I told him i'm looking to advance my career and compensation/overhead for growth would have to be seriously considerable but that I would at least look at it.
I hope you don't take it! Better to give yourself room to grow.
I'm sorry you're in pain right now. It's OK to minimize your interactions. When you do have to interact, I would suggest aiming for respectful. My ex-husband kind of forced some awkward intimacies (bringing me his laundry to wash along with the kids' school uniforms that I'd askedfor, starting a serious discussion with me when I was in my pajamas) that I would rather he had avoided.
I don't want to argue or fight or any of that and I feel like she's definitely angry and there are a lot of emotions. Like the regret feeling has been strong all day, the sadness has been strong all day, the what if's are strong, the can I fix this? are strong....it's just a headache of emotions.
She texted me saying she was at her moms with the dogs so at least she gave me that courtesy. Not really sure when she'll be back at the house to actually discuss things.
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We've all been there @zoochadookdook , heartbreak sucks. It will take time for the physical pain to go away, but it does get better. Try to focus on the new job, get house ready/meet with realtors, you have a plan for her to get her stuff, plenty of time for relocation, don't hesitate to schedule another counseling session if helpful.
8/5 will be here in no time. It sounds like an amazing opportunity for you, a fresh start. Wishing you the best!
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There's not a lot to discuss. You can email or text too on logistics. She gets her stuff and gets out.
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Some people I knew used a google doc to communicate. it was right there and could be checked/updated remotely.
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Some people I knew used a google doc to communicate. it was right there and could be checked/updated remotely.
That may be the most 2019 thing I've ever heard. I'm 27; so even though I didn't have my first real smart phone until age 18-I think the autonomy of the modern day and age is ridiculous.
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When it comes to break ups, space is good. It seems cold but it really isn’t. Three months is likely not long enough, considering that you’ve had such a long relationship. Both of you need to figure out who you are now without all the baggage and habits of the other person spilling over into that process. Especially you since you have a tendency to cater to her instead of spending time to figure out your own needs.
Limit the contact to logistics. Nothing else. Hide her posts on social media so you’re not tempted to wallow in your feelings. Continue to get counseling.
It’s going to hurt. I’m sorry. Break ups suck. Feelings suck. But a year from now you’re going to wonder why you didn’t do this sooner.
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Well went back to the house during lunch and she was there with her dad so I kind of just drove by. Not sure what her plan is but guessing she's being proactive moving out. Still haven't gotten my bosses return offer as he's out of office tomorrow.
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When so you need to sign the new offer?
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Yes on that, if your current employer does not have an offer to you PRONTO, then sign the other one. Do not wait around for your current employer. This is a theme in your life. Do not sit and wait.
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I actually vote for signing the TX offer. I have a hard time imagining anything your current employer would offer that would be a better long-term bet than the new job.
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I actually vote for signing the TX offer. I have a hard time imagining anything your current employer would offer that would be a better long-term bet than the new job.
+1
Staying in your current area, you will constantly be reminded of all this. A fresh start in a new area with a growth oriented position could do wonders.
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I actually vote for signing the TX offer. I have a hard time imagining anything your current employer would offer that would be a better long-term bet than the new job.
Yes. And to me, that's completely separate from the fact that the job offer helps facilitate this very necessary break-up. That's just icing on the cake. OP has made it pretty clear that his current company has little to no room for growth. So even if they match (or slightly beat) the current offer financially, in a few years he would most likely still be better off with the move.
Did the offer give you a timeline for accepting? You could seriously screw yourself by sitting on that offer while you wait, and then losing it.
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The offer said let them know by the end of the week (sunday). I'll sign tomorrow if I don't hear anything back from my current company.
Girlfriend just texted me telling me I need to let her know what I'm doing decision wise. I already told her I'm taking that job unless they somehow offer me of the career of the century but I think she may need that re iterated as I am taking it.
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The offer said let them know by the end of the week (sunday). I'll sign tomorrow if I don't hear anything back from my current company.
Girlfriend just texted me telling me I need to let her know what I'm doing decision wise. I already told her I'm taking that job unless they somehow offer me of the career of the century but I think she may need that re iterated as I am taking it. Told her I'm taking it and she said what does that mean for us and the house. It's weird because I feel like I already had this conversation.
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The offer said let them know by the end of the week (sunday). I'll sign tomorrow if I don't hear anything back from my current company.
Girlfriend just texted me telling me I need to let her know what I'm doing decision wise. I already told her I'm taking that job unless they somehow offer me of the career of the century but I think she may need that re iterated as I am taking it.
Does it matter? If your current company comes back and offers you quadruple your current salary and a guaranteed 15% raise annually as long as you work there, would you undo the break up? I hope not. And if that's the case, I wouldn't reply with information about your job choice. Again, with the theme of needing to help her understand the relationship is not going to work, I would simply say, "My decision to end our relationship isn't going to change. As painful as it is, I think we need to come up with a plan for you to finish moving out so we can both move on with our lives. Do you have a date by which you think it's reasonable to be moved out? I can be flexible about the process, but I think it's important for both of our healing to make sure we get this taken care of, and agreeing to something specific can help make sure there are no misunderstandings. So let me know what you have in mind, and we can work from there if necessary."
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Yes, in these situation any opening is a lifeline to grab on to for her. The message is you are done with her. No other words, no other possibilities.
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Well she's coming by the house tonight after work in a couple hours. I guess we may actually come to a conclusion then. I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
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The offer said let them know by the end of the week (sunday). I'll sign tomorrow if I don't hear anything back from my current company.
In a work context "end of the week" usually means the end of the working week. Also, sending an answer on a Saturday or Sunday looks unprofessional. Please sign and make sure the document together with a covering letter saying that you are looking forward to joining them has been received before the end of office hours on Friday.
Girlfriend just texted me telling me I need to let her know what I'm doing decision wise. I already told her I'm taking that job unless they somehow offer me of the career of the century but I think she may need that re iterated as I am taking it.
Well she's coming by the house tonight after work in a couple hours. I guess we may actually come to a conclusion then. I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
No, 2 days ago was a conclusion. Your ex is lying in the hopes that it will give her the opening to change your mind. Please remember that "No" is a complete sentence: you do not owe your ex anything more in the way of discussion or reasons.
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Well she's coming by the house tonight after work in a couple hours. I guess we may actually come to a conclusion then. I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
But again, it's not a "if you take that job" situation. The relationship you have with her has fundamental problems. You tried to work it out, nothing changed. Your decision to take this job or not take it immaterial to the fact the relationship is over.
It's totally ok and normal to feel emotional about the breakup. I'm sure you care for her and it's a big change for both of you. I suggest what helped for me during my own very painful break up, in addition to talking to friends and family, individually getting counselors.
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I'll remind you that any backsliding you are tempted to do in order to be "kind" will mean you have to retread the hard ground you've already gained, and it will be even more difficult the second time. Caving may feel easier in the moment, but it will make it harder on both of you in the long run.
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Well she's coming by the house tonight after work in a couple hours. I guess we may actually come to a conclusion then. I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
That's your fault. You keep equivocating and trying to be "nice." Until you come out and say, "This relationship is 100% over" you'll be in this limbo.
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I get it. I guess I misread her words a few days back.
I will be submitting the job acceptance tomorrow and I guess tonight I'll tell her that/I'll either be selling or renting the house. May say something about our fundamental wants are different and even if I were staying this is what's best for us.
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@zoochadookdook, you'd be really wise to follow @former player's advice. Sign the Texas offer right now, send it time stamped today.
As a side bonus, the fact you've signed it will make it much easier to block/ignore/derail the lady's attempts to get back together.
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Wow. How many times during this thread, that ex girlfriend has you saying AGAIN make a decision or is this the final offer, etc etc when you've already had The Talk? I feel like I keep going through deja vu reading this thread.
I know no contact seems harsh but is needed at this point.
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I get it. I guess I misread her words a few days back.
I will be submitting the job acceptance tomorrow and I guess tonight I'll tell her that/I'll either be selling or renting the house. May say something about our fundamental wants are different and even if I were staying this is what's best for us.
All this will do is open up lines of argument for her to pursue is this Merry-Go-Round of insanity that you have been stuck on for months. Seriously give a lot of thought to the mantra "Less is more". No qualifiers, no ifs, no convincing. Just a plain and straightforward "This relationships is over".
Ifs give her some hope, other statements give her something to retread the same discussions. Just let it hang there. It will be painful (for both of you), but this must end.
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I get it. I guess I misread her words a few days back.
I will be submitting the job acceptance tomorrow and I guess tonight I'll tell her that/I'll either be selling or renting the house. May say something about our fundamental wants are different and even if I were staying this is what's best for us.
Well she's coming by the house tonight after work in a couple hours. I guess we may actually come to a conclusion then. I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
Man, she is gaslighting you hard. Probably not intentionally, but that really doesn't matter. You need to learn to say No. Practice saying "that doesn't work for me." No further explanation. DO NOT ENGAGE with her, anything you say she will try to grab onto and twist.
'I'm coming over to the house tonight to talk' - 'That doesn't work for me."
'You need to let me know what you're doing' - 'No, that won't be necessary. My decisions are my business."
Any time she starts in with "you need to tell me" or "we need to talk" you need to shut her down with "The only thing we need to talk about is when you'll be ready to move out. How long do you need to move your things?" Do not be redirected to feelings or job situation or anything else. Stay businesslike, and stay on topic.
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I'm really rooting for the OP on this one. If he does the right thing and breaks up with the girl, he will have dodged a bullet. He will avoid a terrible marriage and an expensive divorce. Good luck.
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I get it. I guess I misread her words a few days back.
I will be submitting the job acceptance tomorrow and I guess tonight I'll tell her that/I'll either be selling or renting the house. May say something about our fundamental wants are different and even if I were staying this is what's best for us.
Well she's coming by the house tonight after work in a couple hours. I guess we may actually come to a conclusion then. I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
Man, she is gaslighting you hard. Probably not intentionally, but that really doesn't matter. You need to learn to say No. Practice saying "that doesn't work for me." No further explanation. DO NOT ENGAGE with her, anything you say she will try to grab onto and twist.
'I'm coming over to the house tonight to talk' - 'That doesn't work for me."
'You need to let me know what you're doing' - 'No, that won't be necessary. My decisions are my business."
Any time she starts in with "you need to tell me" or "we need to talk" you need to shut her down with "The only thing we need to talk about is when you'll be ready to move out. How long do you need to move your things?" Do not be redirected to feelings or job situation or anything else. Stay businesslike, and stay on topic.
Technically she didn't say we need to talk. I said texting during work was kind of informal and she asked if I wanted her to come by the house after work to which I said yes. I would rather talk in person from sense of respectfulness. Is it right or wrong? Either way it's how i'm doing it. I think she really wants definitive closure from me.
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The offer said let them know by the end of the week (sunday). I'll sign tomorrow if I don't hear anything back from my current company.
Girlfriend just texted me telling me I need to let her know what I'm doing decision wise. I already told her I'm taking that job unless they somehow offer me of the career of the century but I think she may need that re iterated as I am taking it. Told her I'm taking it and she said what does that mean for us and the house. It's weird because I feel like I already had this conversation.
Did you have that conversation? Did you already tell her the job is immaterial and that you are breaking up with her because of the irreconcilable problems you've been having? Or did you let her believe that the relationship is ending because you're moving to take a job?
I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
Why is this? Do you remember the words you said to her?
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The offer said let them know by the end of the week (sunday). I'll sign tomorrow if I don't hear anything back from my current company.
Girlfriend just texted me telling me I need to let her know what I'm doing decision wise. I already told her I'm taking that job unless they somehow offer me of the career of the century but I think she may need that re iterated as I am taking it. Told her I'm taking it and she said what does that mean for us and the house. It's weird because I feel like I already had this conversation.
Did you have that conversation? Did you already tell her the job is immaterial and that you are breaking up with her because of the irreconcilable problems you've been having? Or did you let her believe that the relationship is ending because you're moving to take a job?
I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
Why is this? Do you remember the words you said to her?
I said we have issues in our relationship and going in circles is not solving the problems we have. The job is unrelated. In her mind I think she's seeing the job as the reasoning? Either way I'm headed home.
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The offer said let them know by the end of the week (sunday). I'll sign tomorrow if I don't hear anything back from my current company.
Girlfriend just texted me telling me I need to let her know what I'm doing decision wise. I already told her I'm taking that job unless they somehow offer me of the career of the century but I think she may need that re iterated as I am taking it. Told her I'm taking it and she said what does that mean for us and the house. It's weird because I feel like I already had this conversation.
Did you have that conversation? Did you already tell her the job is immaterial and that you are breaking up with her because of the irreconcilable problems you've been having? Or did you let her believe that the relationship is ending because you're moving to take a job?
I guess 2 days ago wasn't actually a conclusion just a "if i take this job" situation.
Why is this? Do you remember the words you said to her?
I said we have issues in our relationship and going in circles is not solving the problems we have. The job is unrelated. In her mind I think she's seeing the job as the reasoning? Either way I'm headed home.
In that case, yes, she is gaslighting you. It's an abusive tactic and it's common in codependent relationships. You told her your reasons and she's pretending it's for another reason because she can't or won't accept how you feel. If it wasn't clear that she doesn't respect your feelings and needs before, it should be painfully clear now.
She's coming over to pull out every manipulative trick she has, and since you're raw from the past few days, you are going to be particularly vulnerable to it. I highly discourage letting her come over, but since it's happening anyway, I wish you the best of luck and please, please, please take of yourself. Not her, not her feelings. Your self.
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Whatever you do, don't have sex with her.
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If you need scripts, Captain Awkward has them. See, for instance: https://captainawkward.com/2011/09/28/question-118-how-do-i-break-up-with-someone/ and anything tagged "breakups."
Good luck.
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AAAGH be strong Zoocha!!! We are all rooting for you that she will understand and allow you to make plans to move on with your life unencumbered.
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I am not rooting that she will understand. That locates power in exactly the wrong place. I am hoping that Zooch himself will hold the line.
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I am having anxiety now about the OP, his inability to set a strong boundary, his wishy washiness. I know this thread isnt about me, but good lord I have the angst! I have the heebee jeebies!
Maybe I should just exit this thread for the time being because—This isnt about me! It is not my circus!
But daaayam. Someone send me PM when he has extricated himself from the girlfriend and the current job, Pretty please!
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Whatever you do, don't have sex with her.
yes. Spoken like a mother or a father.
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Well that went bad
First off my old car overheated on the way so she picked me up and drove me back and forth.
Got to the house. Called a towtruck.
She asked if I was sure what I wanted to do I said yes-neither of us is getting what we want in a relationship. She said she's been crying for days and just can't picture a life without me.
Then to the house. She asked if I would rent it as I don't know where I'll be in like 6 months plus and this was supposed to be "our" home with the memories and such attached. I guess I just had no idea how much she loved the house between decorating and showing to our friends. I told her I don't want her to associate it with our relationship/something to cling to and she said oh you just want a complete break.
She's crying and silent the whole time and just says she needs to go, she trusted me too much and she never thought I'd do this.
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Well that went bad
First off my old car overheated on the way so she picked me up and drove me back and forth.
Got to the house. Called a towtruck.
She asked if I was sure what I wanted to do I said yes-neither of us is getting what we want in a relationship. She said she's been crying for days and just can't picture a life without me.
Then to the house. She asked if I would rent it as I don't know where I'll be in like 6 months plus and this was supposed to be "our" home with the memories and such attached. I guess I just had no idea how much she loved the house between decorating and showing to our friends. I told her I don't want her to associate it with our relationship/something to cling to and she said oh you just want a complete break.
She's crying and silent the whole time and just says she needs to go, she trusted me too much and she never thought I'd do this.
Ugh. Oh my God, She is gas lighting and guilt tripping you and manipulating you SOOOOO bad. I have felt some sympathy for her during all this, but I think I just ran out. She honestly needs to pull her big girl panties on, grow up, and stop trying to make you feel like shit so you will stay out of obligation. She doesn’t care how you feel. She only cares about what she wants. This is the opposite of love.
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She didn’t trust you THAT much.
The hardest part is over now. If you deal with the logistics quickly, you can stop talking to each other, and you can both start healing. It’s sucks so bad now but future you is gonna look back and be so grateful to present day you for ending this. She likely will, too — I myself am TOTALLY grateful to the boyfriend who dumped me because (1) it needed to happen, (2) I wasn’t strong enough to do it, and (3) it freed me up to go find the kind of partner I really wanted and needed. I bet your ex will feel the same in a few months.
Just try to cut contact as soon as you can ... every time you talk, it will rip the wound open again. You both will heal much faster if you make a clean break, I promise. You won’t find healing or closure in conversation, even though it feels like you should. It just doesn’t work that way.
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Well that went bad
First off my old car overheated on the way so she picked me up and drove me back and forth.
Got to the house. Called a towtruck.
She asked if I was sure what I wanted to do I said yes-neither of us is getting what we want in a relationship. She said she's been crying for days and just can't picture a life without me.
Then to the house. She asked if I would rent it as I don't know where I'll be in like 6 months plus and this was supposed to be "our" home with the memories and such attached. I guess I just had no idea how much she loved the house between decorating and showing to our friends. I told her I don't want her to associate it with our relationship/something to cling to and she said oh you just want a complete break.
She's crying and silent the whole time and just says she needs to go, she trusted me too much and she never thought I'd do this.
Nooooo she is clinging onto the house as a way to cling on to you! Break free little grasshopper!
Go bounce in some fresh green grass and nail another grasshopper and you'll seriously know you made the right choice.
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Well that went bad
First off my old car overheated on the way so she picked me up and drove me back and forth.
Got to the house. Called a towtruck.
She asked if I was sure what I wanted to do I said yes-neither of us is getting what we want in a relationship. She said she's been crying for days and just can't picture a life without me.
Then to the house. She asked if I would rent it as I don't know where I'll be in like 6 months plus and this was supposed to be "our" home with the memories and such attached. I guess I just had no idea how much she loved the house between decorating and showing to our friends. I told her I don't want her to associate it with our relationship/something to cling to and she said oh you just want a complete break.
She's crying and silent the whole time and just says she needs to go, she trusted me too much and she never thought I'd do this.
Start strong and put the house on the market. It's hard, but you are taking the right steps.
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I’m sorry this is dragging out and so difficult for you. You are making the right choice. As others have said, this hurts now but in time i am confident that you will heal and be much happier for it. I am rooting for you.
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Well that went bad
First off my old car overheated on the way so she picked me up and drove me back and forth.
Got to the house. Called a towtruck.
She asked if I was sure what I wanted to do I said yes-neither of us is getting what we want in a relationship. She said she's been crying for days and just can't picture a life without me.
Then to the house. She asked if I would rent it as I don't know where I'll be in like 6 months plus and this was supposed to be "our" home with the memories and such attached. I guess I just had no idea how much she loved the house between decorating and showing to our friends. I told her I don't want her to associate it with our relationship/something to cling to and she said oh you just want a complete break.
She's crying and silent the whole time and just says she needs to go, she trusted me too much and she never thought I'd do this.
This sounds absolutely gut-wrenching and difficult, but keep holding firm.
It seems that for her, if you rent the house instead of selling it, it's the last little crack of the door being held open. A sign that you could come back and reverse the break-up.
I do feel sad for her. Despite all the conversations you've been having over the last few months, she did not really expect this to happen. In her shoes I would also be crying and upset.
But remember that she has also contributed to this moment -- it's not all on you. You both have endlessly discussed the relationship and could not come up with a shared vision of the future. So it had to end.
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Do not call her for help anymore. Get an Uber, or carpool with a co-worker.
She wants you to rent the house instead of selling it because she thinks that you and she will get back together, move back into the house, and get married?
She is going to miss the house and her decorating? She should not have played house with you for years without a firm commitment. That was a mistake for both of you.
I think it is ridiculous that she will miss the house. I tend to think that true love don't give a damn about material possessions, you know? I think she is in love with the idea and the fantasy and the status of being coupled, or married, with her decorating and her furniture. You, you are her accessory.
Get out, don't talk to her, and put the house on the market. Sign your contract for the new job!
p.s. do you have family that you are close to? Are you talking to them about all your life changes too?
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You have to proceed as though you are broken up with her, because you are now. In essence, that means acting like she does not exist. She is no longer a resource for you. If you need something, you call whomever you'd call if she fell off the face of the earth. It's not fair to her to keep using her as a resource when you don't want to be with her anymore. It gives her false hope, and it prevents both of you from moving on. Tell yourself now that 100% you will not contact her for ANYTHING, other than business-like details about finalizing the details of separating your lives. Tell yourself that, and stick to it.
And remember that any time you soften your words with her, even out of kindness, you are backsliding and creating more work for yourself to get completely broken up and moved on.
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Do not call her for help anymore. Get an Uber, or carpool with a co-worker.
She wants you to rent the house instead of selling it because she thinks that you and she will get back together, move back into the house, and get married?
She is going to miss the house and her decorating? She should not have played house with you for years without a firm commitment. That was a mistake for both of you.
I think it is ridiculous that she will miss the house. I tend to think that true love don't give a damn about material possessions, you know? I think she is in love with the idea and the fantasy and the status of being coupled, or married, with her decorating and her furniture. You, you are her accessory.
Get out, don't talk to her, and put the house on the market. Sign your contract for the new job!
+1000. Couldn’t have said it better.
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Do not call her for help anymore. Get an Uber, or carpool with a co-worker.
She wants you to rent the house instead of selling it because she thinks that you and she will get back together, move back into the house, and get married?
She is going to miss the house and her decorating? She should not have played house with you for years without a firm commitment. That was a mistake for both of you.
I think it is ridiculous that she will miss the house. I tend to think that true love don't give a damn about material possessions, you know? I think she is in love with the idea and the fantasy and the status of being coupled, or married, with her decorating and her furniture. You, you are her accessory.
Get out, don't talk to her, and put the house on the market. Sign your contract for the new job!
p.s. do you have family that you are close to? Are you talking to them about all your life changes too?
I 100% agree with all of the advice given (I may disagree on your seeming position on cohabitation before marriage).
Honestly the p.s. might be the most important part. When a relationship of that duration and closeness (emotional, proximity, and convenience) ends you discover how much you have come to rely on the other person for everything; from an unexpected even (like a car breaking down) to just venting at the end of a tough day. Shifting to a support structure to to meet those needs is important and close friends/family are a good place to start.
Zoocha, looking back I am thankful for the ends the were quick and complete, they hurt like heck, but they were miles better than those that drug on for an extended period. As callous as this sounds, your number one priority needs to be taking care of yourself; don't go out of your way to accommodate her if it adversely impacts you.
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This is going faster and more easily than I was guessing. Strike fast, keep going, Zooch - you're doing great this evening.
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Just logged in to say that this has got to be the most frustrating thread I’ve experienced in the 25 years I’ve spent using the internet. I sincerely hope OP is a troll, and if not....bless your heart. Hopefully moving to a new city will end this nonsense.
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Just logged in to say that this has got to be the most frustrating thread I’ve experienced in the 25 years I’ve spent using the internet. I sincerely hope OP is a troll, and if not....bless your heart. Hopefully moving to a new city will end this nonsense.
As frustrating as it can be at times I am actually really proud of how much progress the OP has made. He is remarkably open to considering new ideas and is on the oath to changing his world view and upending his life in the space of a few months. I expect few people would manage to do the same, even presented with the same situation that seems so obvious to outsiders. I’m impressed with his work.
(Pssst: keep it up!)
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Stay strong, Zooch. Your ex-girlfriend may get very angry as she grieves the relationship, and I would not be surprised if you get yelled at. Just be cool and don't get caught up in it. Start planning your move to the new city. Interview some realtors. I know you can sell it on your own, but a realtor will be helpful to you, especially if you go out of state soon.
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As frustrating as it can be at times I am actually really proud of how much progress the OP has made. He is remarkably open to considering new ideas and is on the oath to changing his world view and upending his life in the space of a few months. I expect few people would manage to do the same, even presented with the same situation that seems so obvious to outsiders. I’m impressed with his work.
(Pssst: keep it up!)
+1
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As frustrating as it can be at times I am actually really proud of how much progress the OP has made. He is remarkably open to considering new ideas and is on the oath to changing his world view and upending his life in the space of a few months. I expect few people would manage to do the same, even presented with the same situation that seems so obvious to outsiders. I’m impressed with his work.
(Pssst: keep it up!)
+1
+2
Keep it up, Zooch!!
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Sitting at the mechanic carless right now; have a feeling I may need to replace it (head gasket if gone is $1200 or so and it's worth maybe 1500)
Anyways she messaged me last night (While I was staying at my buddies)
Basically convo went like this
Her: I'm having a really hard time. I feel like nobody else understands. And I can't stop crying.
Me: Your friends and family don't? I'm sorry, it just isn't working for me to a degree of where i'm happy from a relationship perspective. And I know it must e confusing and hurtful for me to say I'm not ready for what you want over and over but I can't get there like we are
Her: I'm just really hurt right now...this decision is very permanent. It's not like a vacation you can return from after a few weeks. And I'm trying to feel at home here but it still feels like I'm at a strangers house. I feel like my choices have been taken away and I'm being shoved into this life I don't want.
Her: I put so much love and patience into our relationshp. I'm sorry I didn't meet your expectations.
Me: Your mom loves you. She talks you up at every social even. I didn't have high expectations or such; I just never felt wanted after (what was my fault) the cheating early on. I tried to provide for you as well as I could-I never so much as sniffed at another female-but I got hurt a lot in my self esteem trying to feel like a romantic partner and not just a provider.
Her: I lover her too I just feel like I lost a limb and my world is upside down. And you know I don't want you as just a provider. I've never asked for a penny.
Hey : For so long I've pictured us growing old together.
Me: I've been like this for months. Just sad. I realize it's not fair for me to compromise on your vision of the future and not be 100% for it just like I can't make you see or have a certain kind of relationship with me. Hopefully we still get old, you've got so much good things going for you quality wise as a person and with your new job; I know how passionate you are about children.
Hey: I just feel....not excited for anything right now. I'm going to try to go to sleep.
Me: I get it, like numb. That's how I feel. You and the dogs take care
It's just sad. She really didn't view this as actually something that could happen-when she said she was all in she had just had a picture of the future and that I'd always be the one she'd be with. By all means we were going through the motions of life together-getting through college, real jobs, the house.....etc.
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Good progress. Stay strong.
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Now is a perfect time to stop texting about the emotional stuff. You and the dogs take care is a perfect sign off. I would recommend not replying to anything other than logistics about moving furniture.
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Yeah I'm just worried about her. I don't think she's the type to ever self harm or such but I do want to make sure she has support of friends and family to the point that they're around her close enough.
I was thinking of suggesting a moving company and being out this weekend for her to come through. Still not 100% sure on the dogs and if she's taking them both or one.
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Let her figure that stuff out on her own. Are the dogs with her now? Assume she is keeping both.
Note that she may rage at you or make sexual advances towards you. Both are acts of desperation at this point. It sounds like she has a strong relationship with her mom. She's going to be OK, really. In 3 to 6 months, you will both be doing much better. The last half of 2019 might be hard, but you will both be prepared for a wonderful 2020.
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@zoochadookdook
I'm chiming in for the first time to tell you well done! You are doing the right thing here and handling it correctly, like a gentleman.
I think this was your first and only serious relationship? So this is your first breakup. Breakups suck. There's no way to do it without some pain, really.
You might not realize it, but your text conversation with your ex last night fell into the time honored cliche of "It's not you, it's me". There's a reason this is time honored. It's the way to be polite about things, and leave no room for the other person to say "But I can change to be more like what you want!"
The less you communicate with your ex now, the better. You are giving her a great opportunity to have to grow and mature by making a clean break with her. She needs to deal with the loss of things she dreamed of -- apparently growing old together, and living in that house and decorating it, were things she dreamed of and always imagined doing. It will take some time, but eventually she will realize that she can still have those things, but with someone who wants *just* those things as well.
But you need to give her the space to find people to comfort her on her own. She is using you for emotional support right now because that's what she is used to, but when you stop providing that, she will develop other resources. She has to do this, and the longer you prop her up the harder it will be for her to develop and mature.
Trust that you are doing the right thing in separating from her and allowing her to grow and mature as you focus on yourself.
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Agree with what is said above.
At this point, the best thing you can do is not get engaged with her in the emotional conversations anymore. The next time she tries -- and she will try -- just say, "I think it's probably best not to dwell on this together anymore. You suggested no contact, and I think that's the right thing to do."
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Well we definitely have to communicate as far as all her stuff goes. Hey life is pretty much rolled up in the house. Yeah I mean I understand the logic of why this is better but it still feels like I'm just tossing out something I love. I mean I just want us both to be as happy as we can vs just existing.
Regarding the actual house; I have considered renting vs selling. Even before all this I have talked about owning rentals with my father and such. Considering I know the house, the area, and all as well as having family and friends in the area-I was thinking of keeping this as my first rental. Between hiring a company vs trying to manage myself. I am a entrepreneur by design and will almost certainly be pursuing side hustles in texas (driving clean body cars back north to resell/buying a house and renting to roommates to save some funds etc) but this would not only keep me property back here; but also build equity in it. Anyone have any advice that's related strictly to the monetary decision making behind keeping properties as rentals?
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You're just making it harder on yourself, man. Why should it take more than a day for her to move out? Just tell her she has this weekend to move out.
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Well we definitely have to communicate as far as all her stuff goes. Hey life is pretty much rolled up in the house. Yeah I mean I understand the logic of why this is better but it still feels like I'm just tossing out something I love. I mean I just want us both to be as happy as we can vs just existing.
Regarding the actual house; I have considered renting vs selling. Even before all this I have talked about owning rentals with my father and such. Considering I know the house, the area, and all as well as having family and friends in the area-I was thinking of keeping this as my first rental. Between hiring a company vs trying to manage myself. I am a entrepreneur by design and will almost certainly be pursuing side hustles in texas (driving clean body cars back north to resell/buying a house and renting to roommates to save some funds etc) but this would not only keep me property back here; but also build equity in it. Anyone have any advice that's related strictly to the monetary decision making behind keeping properties as rentals?
I would think you'd have to calculate the return on your investment by renting it versus the rate of return if you sold it and invested the proceeds. I would personally also weigh heavily the headache of being a landlord, particularly long distance. You'll have a lot more life flexibility if you sell.
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You're just making it harder on yourself, man. Why should it take more than a day for her to move out? Just tell her she has this weekend to move out.
She's got a lot of stuff; not sure if she could find a place to store it and organize a move by this weekend. House is 1800 sq feet and we have lots of junk to pick through.
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Well we definitely have to communicate as far as all her stuff goes. Hey life is pretty much rolled up in the house. Yeah I mean I understand the logic of why this is better but it still feels like I'm just tossing out something I love. I mean I just want us both to be as happy as we can vs just existing.
Regarding the actual house; I have considered renting vs selling. Even before all this I have talked about owning rentals with my father and such. Considering I know the house, the area, and all as well as having family and friends in the area-I was thinking of keeping this as my first rental. Between hiring a company vs trying to manage myself. I am a entrepreneur by design and will almost certainly be pursuing side hustles in texas (driving clean body cars back north to resell/buying a house and renting to roommates to save some funds etc) but this would not only keep me property back here; but also build equity in it. Anyone have any advice that's related strictly to the monetary decision making behind keeping properties as rentals?
I would think you'd have to calculate the return on your investment by renting it versus the rate of return if you sold it and invested the proceeds. I would personally also weigh heavily the headache of being a landlord, particularly long distance. You'll have a lot more life flexibility if you sell.
I've ran the numbers in this calculator: https://www.narpm.org/members/resources/rent-vs-sell-calculator/
Even with vacancy numbers/repair numbers it seems like renting it is a better way to build wealth long term; which the proceeds would be doing anyways. I guess going through a rental management company is an option as well which slims your margins but takes away some of the headaches.
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Biggerpockets.com is an excellent web site for all info. about being a landlord. There are also landlords here who can help you. @arebelspy is very experienced with managing out of state rentals. Perhaps he can help.
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Well we definitely have to communicate as far as all her stuff goes. Hey life is pretty much rolled up in the house. Yeah I mean I understand the logic of why this is better but it still feels like I'm just tossing out something I love. I mean I just want us both to be as happy as we can vs just existing.
Regarding the actual house; I have considered renting vs selling. Even before all this I have talked about owning rentals with my father and such. Considering I know the house, the area, and all as well as having family and friends in the area-I was thinking of keeping this as my first rental. Between hiring a company vs trying to manage myself. I am a entrepreneur by design and will almost certainly be pursuing side hustles in texas (driving clean body cars back north to resell/buying a house and renting to roommates to save some funds etc) but this would not only keep me property back here; but also build equity in it. Anyone have any advice that's related strictly to the monetary decision making behind keeping properties as rentals?
I would think you'd have to calculate the return on your investment by renting it versus the rate of return if you sold it and invested the proceeds. I would personally also weigh heavily the headache of being a landlord, particularly long distance. You'll have a lot more life flexibility if you sell.
I've ran the numbers in this calculator: https://www.narpm.org/members/resources/rent-vs-sell-calculator/
Even with vacancy numbers/repair numbers it seems like renting it is a better way to build wealth long term; which the proceeds would be doing anyways. I guess going through a rental management company is an option as well which slims your margins but takes away some of the headaches.
How much do you expect to make on the sale? How does the rent wealth calculation compare to the sale proceeds invested in the stock market at an average 7% return?
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I found that the nuisance/worry factor in being a long-distance landlord of my former home outweighed the long-term benefits and sold up (and then bought a rental locally, mostly for non-financial reasons) after a few years. The problems of a long-distance rental can be offset by knowing a reliable cadre of local workmen to carry out repairs and maintenance and having someone local to find and vet tenants. Having family in the area is an advantage if they can provide any of those services (don't take them for granted, pay them) and also if they can provide you with a place to stay if you have to visit the area to deal with any house issues.
Of course, keeping the house as a rental may also affect what you do for housing in your new location: whether you can buy down there and what you can afford if you do. So that needs to be factored into any decision.
Long term you are going to be all right financially whatever decision you make: real estate and index investing are both good ways to reach financial security and independence. So I think you should do whatever feels right to you and that you think you will regret the least: it's very unlikely to be much of a mistake whichever way you jump.
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So not to nag, but did you sign your contract with the new employer?
If you need a new to you car, this is not a bad time to do that. It's more work, but I think new job, new city, new (affordable) car is not a bad way to go. I am getting unMustachian here.
Start separating your obvious stuff. You will also need to get your keys back.
Make a schedule for when you want to have all this done by. I think she should be able to get her stuff out next weekend and that would be a very good goal. It gives her some time to prep, and she should get on this ASAP and know that there is a deadline -- perhaps the 5th? Don't tell her this but you could extend to the 12th, but try to make this happen sooner than later so it does NOT drag out.
I think that putting the house on the market helps enforce your deadline with her.
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I found that the nuisance/worry factor in being a long-distance landlord of my former home outweighed the long-term benefits and sold up (and then bought a rental locally, mostly for non-financial reasons) after a few years. The problems of a long-distance rental can be offset by knowing a reliable cadre of local workmen to carry out repairs and maintenance and having someone local to find and vet tenants. Having family in the area is an advantage if they can provide any of those services (don't take them for granted, pay them) and also if they can provide you with a place to stay if you have to visit the area to deal with any house issues.
Of course, keeping the house as a rental may also affect what you do for housing in your new location: whether you can buy down there and what you can afford if you do. So that needs to be factored into any decision.
Long term you are going to be all right financially whatever decision you make: real estate and index investing are both good ways to reach financial security and independence. So I think you should do whatever feels right to you and that you think you will regret the least: it's very unlikely to be much of a mistake whichever way you jump.
I'm pretty hands on and proactive even when maintenance items and such do arrive. I guess my financial situation isn't bad now
and would only be improved by going to a better job so I kind of figure why not try out a rental on something I have good equity in/have family and friends in the area?
current financial situation:
60k liquid
30k roth
no debt
115k mortgage 4.25 30 year. House let's say 190.
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So not to nag, but did you sign your contract with the new employer?
If you need a new to you car, this is not a bad time to do that. It's more work, but I think new job, new city, new (affordable) car is not a bad way to go. I am getting unMustachian here.
Start separating your obvious stuff. You will also need to get your keys back.
Make a schedule for when you want to have all this done by. I think she should be able to get her stuff out next weekend and that would be a very good goal. It gives her some time to prep, and she should get on this ASAP and know that there is a deadline -- perhaps the 5th? Don't tell her this but you could extend to the 12th, but try to make this happen sooner than later so it does NOT drag out.
I think that putting the house on the market helps enforce your deadline with her.
Signing it with my dad this afternoon.
Yeah I don't want to touch any of her stuff but I guess I can pull mine out of the closet and all that. I anticipate living in the house a few more months at least though.
Trying to figure out what exactly to text her. I know she's really having a hard time and just don't want to sound like an ass.
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So not to nag, but did you sign your contract with the new employer?
If you need a new to you car, this is not a bad time to do that. It's more work, but I think new job, new city, new (affordable) car is not a bad way to go. I am getting unMustachian here.
Start separating your obvious stuff. You will also need to get your keys back.
Make a schedule for when you want to have all this done by. I think she should be able to get her stuff out next weekend and that would be a very good goal. It gives her some time to prep, and she should get on this ASAP and know that there is a deadline -- perhaps the 5th? Don't tell her this but you could extend to the 12th, but try to make this happen sooner than later so it does NOT drag out.
I think that putting the house on the market helps enforce your deadline with her.
Signing it with my dad this afternoon.
Yeah I don't want to touch any of her stuff but I guess I can pull mine out of the closet and all that. I anticipate living in the house a few more months at least though.
Trying to figure out what exactly to text her. I know she's really having a hard time and just don't want to sound like an ass.
You are having a hard time too. You need to find a way through this which is for yourself and which doesn't involve losing sight of your own needs by supporting her through it. Any conversations you are having about feelings should be with your own family and friends, and any conversations your ex is having about feelings should be with her family and friends. Next time she brings up something which is about emotions perhaps you could say "that's a conversation you should be having with someone else now".
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So not to nag, but did you sign your contract with the new employer?
If you need a new to you car, this is not a bad time to do that. It's more work, but I think new job, new city, new (affordable) car is not a bad way to go. I am getting unMustachian here.
Start separating your obvious stuff. You will also need to get your keys back.
Make a schedule for when you want to have all this done by. I think she should be able to get her stuff out next weekend and that would be a very good goal. It gives her some time to prep, and she should get on this ASAP and know that there is a deadline -- perhaps the 5th? Don't tell her this but you could extend to the 12th, but try to make this happen sooner than later so it does NOT drag out.
I think that putting the house on the market helps enforce your deadline with her.
Signing it with my dad this afternoon.
Yeah I don't want to touch any of her stuff but I guess I can pull mine out of the closet and all that. I anticipate living in the house a few more months at least though.
Trying to figure out what exactly to text her. I know she's really having a hard time and just don't want to sound like an ass.
Don't text her again right away. Let it go until Monday.
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When will your new job start in Texas?
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@zoochadookdook
When you have settled into your new place and job I think you should look into planning a fun trip to Thailand or some other exotic place. I believe it was Thailand you had mentioned long up thread that you wanted to visit but felt you couldn’t.
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Yeah, you can't be her main emotional support person anymore. Especially not through the break-up. She needs to become independent from you, the sooner the better.
Send the minimum number of texts necessary to be polite and organize logistics. But keep the tone distant and the messages super-brief. Avoid getting into a flurry of long, emotional texts. Hopefully she will then start having these conversations with more responsive people within her own family/friend circle.
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I found that the nuisance/worry factor in being a long-distance landlord of my former home outweighed the long-term benefits and sold up (and then bought a rental locally, mostly for non-financial reasons) after a few years. The problems of a long-distance rental can be offset by knowing a reliable cadre of local workmen to carry out repairs and maintenance and having someone local to find and vet tenants. Having family in the area is an advantage if they can provide any of those services (don't take them for granted, pay them) and also if they can provide you with a place to stay if you have to visit the area to deal with any house issues.
Of course, keeping the house as a rental may also affect what you do for housing in your new location: whether you can buy down there and what you can afford if you do. So that needs to be factored into any decision.
Long term you are going to be all right financially whatever decision you make: real estate and index investing are both good ways to reach financial security and independence. So I think you should do whatever feels right to you and that you think you will regret the least: it's very unlikely to be much of a mistake whichever way you jump.
I'm pretty hands on and proactive even when maintenance items and such do arrive. I guess my financial situation isn't bad now
and would only be improved by going to a better job so I kind of figure why not try out a rental on something I have good equity in/have family and friends in the area?
current financial situation:
60k liquid
30k roth
no debt
115k mortgage 4.25 30 year. House let's say 190.
It it would sell for $190k, you want it to be able to earn $1900/mo in rent. If not, you are likely better off financially selling it. And that's not considering the emotional and logistical concerns.
Also, being a long-distance landlord can be challenging. I can't imagine doing it without a property manager, but they take a good chunk (usually close to 10%) of the rent.
I do think it's time to start gently bringing up a timeline for moving. Consciously or not, slow-rolling that process is a way for her to keep one foot in the door of this relationship. And it prevents both of you from moving on.
"I know this is painful and uncomfortable, but I think it's time we talk about a plan for getting your stuff moved out of the house. I need to start getting it cleaned up and ready to sell or list as a rental. Do you think it's realistic that you have your stuff out by the end of the second (or third, if you must) weekend in August, so August 11? [or 18] Also, I plan on being out of the house all day on Saturday [even if you have to manufacture a reason and a place to go] so that would be a good time for you to come by. If it works better for you, I can move my plans to Sunday. Let me know if that works for you, and if not, we can see if there's a compromise.
I know this is hard, and awkward, but it's the only path forward I can see. [NOTE--I would probably leave this off, but it's clear you really prioritize being super gentle. This does slightly soften things so it is a bit less cold and business like--which is why I'd leave it off--but if you have to say something, at least this doesn't delve too far into emotions and things she can try to argue and rationalize, or things she can spin to create hope.]
And, as others have said, you are doing great. This shit is hard. It is. I once broke up with a boyfriend (and it took me longer to do than the length of this thread, even after I'd 100% made up my mind!) and when I'd finally done it, a couple days later, he wanted to go to Disneyland. We had passes, and it was a thing we did together a lot, and I thought it would be kind to show him we were still friends. We went, and somehow, we ended up back together. I don't know if it was an intentional misunderstanding/manipulation on his part. But I was afraid to be assertive because it felt "mean". When he grabbed my hand, I knew it would hurt him if I pulled away, so I didn't. And one thing lead to another and suddenly everything was exactly as it had been and I knew he thought we were back together. So then I had to break up with him a second time. It was terrible, and it was all because I couldn't bring myself to be mean to this person I cared about, and I equated "firm" with "mean". When really, what I ended up doing was far more hurtful and mean.
Then, I initially left the moving out part ambiguous because it felt like kicking him when he was down to say, "have your shit out by Sunday." (He ended up moving in with my at my parents' house 'temporarily' when the room he was rented was no longer available. In retrospect, I think he absolutely did this because he knew things were dying and it made it harder for use to end things.) So I just left it as "I'm in no hurry, take the time you need to make arrangements," and that meant those arrangements never came. he'd come by, grab a few things, ask to talk to me, tell me how sad he was and how destroyed was his world, etc., then leave with three pairs of socks and a off-season piece of clothing. And repeat, and repeat, and repeat. Finally, I had to tell him, "look, this isn't good for either of us. I need you to be moved out in two weeks." That was awful. But it would have been better if I just had that one "awful" instead of the weeks of baby "awfuls" leading up to it, plus ultimately the same hard conversation.
He kept trying to engage. I had to resist the urge to coddle him. When he sent long, emotional emails, I either didn't respond, or only responded to the logistics parts and ignored the emotional stuff.
This stuff is so hard. It truly is. I don't think anyone here believes otherwise. But you will make it through this, and there's a way to do that which minimizes the additional, lingering hurt for both of you and allows you to sooner start the healing part.
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Financial considerations re house:
1. Wise financial decisions are separate from emotions, or at least made without risk of influence by them. You are not in a life situation where it is likely to make and maintain decisions about the house without emotional impact. By definition, the house is not available for a strictly financial decision. Therefore any path that extricates you from the house without loss is financially wiser than any path that keeps you connected to it.
2. She can't buy it. Based on that plus #1, you should immediately sign up a realtor to sell it.
Were it not for #1, other factors would come into play, some of them mentioned by you and others upthread:
3. Transaction costs are significant in real estate. If you're going to have rental property, AND the one you have is a good rental, of course there's an advantage in keeping it.
4. Remote operation is more difficult and costly. Not impossible, but increases risk and reduces profit.
5. Different areas vary widely in capitalization rate and future prospects. I don't know those about your home town. San Antonio's cap rate has been falling but is not crazy. A judgment call on both sides of the equation.
6. Details of property, neighborhood, maintenance, tax, match between property and renters are huge. Didn't evaluate your property's details due to #1 and 2.
7. As a decision unrelated to context, it's a maybe without further examination.
8. I am going to assume (no offense) that the property is normal, not extraordinary, in your home market. In that case, except for the transaction cost aspect, I think you can replace it with other properties in future if you wish.
9. Maintaining the property and learning to be a landlord are good experience, and you need experience.
10. Maintaining the property and learning to be a landloard can be costly experience at first, and are likely to occuply lots of time and attention in your early years. This is unwise because you have a new job to do, and a new city to learn about.
11. Later, there will be many other properties to buy. Time favors investment, but that's just as true in stock as real estate (see details in wording after this list).
12. The real estate is a large portion of your current stash. You may buy in San Antonio sometime soon. Possibly better from a portfolio safety perspective to put that capital into liquid form for now, especially since you're moving into a new place. That way you won't end up overweighted in real estate and illiquid in the event of surprises.
You can see that some factors support holding the property, but the majority lean towards selling. I feel that qualitatively, the financial factors in favor of selling are also more powerful. In time, you can and should pursue real estate IF you are interested, but not now.
As a point of reference, I am one of many landlords who do not feel returns in real estate are higher than stock after taking personal labor into account. Instead, I feel it's simply a good business, one that a person can learn and do part time when their other personal ducks are in a row. In future, I think you will be in a position to more efficiently develop your real estate chops at that time.
Bear in mind that if you sell, you will still be practicing two very important real estate skills. One is the mechanics of selling a property. The other is the broader skill of making decisive progress in a money-related project, which includes separating emotions from your business analysis, and then completing all the property-specific steps needed to actually bring the project to market. Selling the house ASAP already IS an important real estate experience, if that is what you choose to do.
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It's hard to be an emotional support to a person when you are the one causing them the pain. Best to keep things focused on the logistics, make everything as quick/efficient as possible.
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well she texted today and she'll bring the dogs over before work so I can have them tomorrow/is getting her bed and such tomorrow night.
Past that her dad will hire a moving company but she said we need to divide furniture/talk about the dogs and such.
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OK, good. Did you finish your employment contract, and when do you start the new job? How is the car repair situation?
Do not do shared custody of the dogs. They are either hers or yours and it doesn't really make sense to split them if they are a bonded pair. If they are not a bonded pair, it might be easier for you to each take one because it is easier to rent a place with one dog, it's harder to find a place to live that takes multiple dogs.
Dividing the furniture should not be difficult. Who bought it? How much did you purchase together?
Go have some fun this weekend and take care of yourself.
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^Total agreement re the dogs. If she wants to decide who gets them, I'd accept that decision; if she doesn't, make a decision. If in doubt, my guess is leave them with her, but that's up to you. Congrats on moving forward. Momentum seems to be building. Keep it up!
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The car they couldn't figure out why it overheated. Ran pressure through the system for a few hours and no leaking coolant. Could be a sticking thermostat? Anyways hoping the head gasket lived
I'm not sure if they're bonded. The boy is older and we got the girl last year-she definitely needs another dog/person around-he's cool on his own though.
Esigned on the docs an hour ago.
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The car they couldn't figure out why it overheated. Ran pressure through the system for a few hours and no leaking coolant. Could be a sticking thermostat? Anyways hoping the head gasket lived
I'm not sure if they're bonded. The boy is older and we got the girl last year-she definitely needs another dog/person around-he's cool on his own though.
Esigned on the docs an hour ago.
Congratulations! That is huge!
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Woot woot! That is awesome. Congrats
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Congrats!!
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(assuming you meant the New Job documents...)
New job, new life! Yay!!
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Yeah I should get excited I just can't hah. At least I get to see the dogs tomorrow-She's dropping them off in the morning.
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Congratulations on your new career.
Yeah I should get excited I just can't hah. At least I get to see the dogs tomorrow-She's dropping them off in the morning.
Give yourself time. Change is difficult, and many of the benefits will take time to become apparent. At the end of an unhappy period in my life nothing much seemed to change for about 6 months, then for no particular reason I could discern I just looked up at the world one day and suddenly all the colours were brighter. I hadn't even realised they had been dull, because that had been normal to me for so long.
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Congrats on the job!!
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I often feel like that when going through big changes. Even if it's a really good change, there are still challenges to overcome, and sadness about leaving things behind. However, if you never leave anything behind, you'll never got anywhere. Now that I'm older, I recognize more how important it is to keep moving forward. My biggest regrets in life are being stuck too long (an 8 year relationship, that was even harder to extricate myself from even though my ex had moved on himself, a 15 year stint at a job I never liked in the first place). Keep moving forward, and you be less likely to find yourself in middle age wondering where the years went, and why you never got anywhere.
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Great progress Zoocha!!!
The best advice I've seen on whether to keep a place as a rental, is whether you'd buy the house if it were on the market today to use as a rental. That means the comment above, about it needing to rent for nearly $1900 with a $190k price is going to be very relevant.
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I'm totally interested to find out how you're surviving this weekend. Hang in there!
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Hey all
Helped her dad and gfs sisters bf move for like 5 hours yesterday. It wasnt' nearly as awkward-he's the nicest guy ever and said he understood our position of both having jobs and didn't blame me a bit. They wouldn't have been able to move the furniture without me so I helped out for 2 loads included getting her room organized at her moms and even moving other stuff downstairs to ease her and her sisters job later.
Their mom is kind of a hoarder so it'll be a PITA dealing with her not throwing shit away but that's not really my problem.
Been researching a little bit and drinking beer all weekend-rental market looks really strong here.
My house is 1700sq ft 3 bed 2 bath and 1000/sq are renting around 1300; It may not be unfathomable to get 1900-2000.
I've wanted to get into rental/real estate for a while now and have ran my own business through college; so I get the micromanagement and ebbs and flows but kind of get excited about the challenge. Right now i'm appraising what is/isn't worth doing to the house prior to converting it to a rental. The kitchen/bathrooms are serviceable but could use updates. The bathroom updates would just be retiling/new vanities. The kitchen would ideally be remodeled fully. New cabinents. New shape (current U shape is confined). Add a dishwasher. The driveway could also use replacement in the next few years and a water softner would be a welcome addition to prolong appliance/pipe/fixture lifespans.
I'm debating using it as a rental as is and holding the proceeds in terms of standard functional repairs until I decide that a remodel would make a considerable difference in "rentability"
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Glad to hear you made good progress on getting her moved out and that things aren't too unpleasant. Any decision about the dogs and the car yet?
Unless you can find a really high quality tenant, expect that they will be harder on your place than you were -- if you want to rent I would not sink money into those upgrades now because they won't stay new looking for long. The $100-200 monthly premium you might get on the rent will take a LOOOOONG time to earn back. Just get it servicable enough to rent quickly at fair market value and save the upgrades for after you are sure you are keeping the property/have some income you have saved up from the first few years of renting.
Dogs I have a feeling the boy is coming with me which is good. I love those little guys. Car......I really need to figure out why the heck it overheated. May have to go to a different mechanic. Assuming head gasket is ok-keeping it once I figure out if it's a thermostat/whatever. If not.......car shopping.
Yeah It's defiantly serviceable as is. I figure if I wanted to live in it ever those upgrades may make sense/if the area appreciates enough to make them make sense. I have money set aside right now but who knows what that's for at this point.
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Smaller homes make better rentals. I've discussed this with someone who has had rentals for years. When tenants turn over, you likely will have to replace all flooring and paint all the walls. The bigger the home, the more this sets you back.
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Yeah, I would save the remodel money for if/when you ever decide to sell. You could use it to repair things the tenants have worn out over the years.
Would recommend renting to fellow dog owners! Renters with dogs (of which I am one) are always looking for easy yard access, and most landlords won't rent to us at all. There will be more wear and tear on the property, but you could attract people willing to pay more in rent.
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Sell the house. You really don't need something to tie you down. It will be a PITA to manage it remotely. If you absolutely have your heart set on opening a rental property, sell it and buy a rental property in San Antonio.
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Sell it.
Without further info, the math you've shared REALLY doesn't add up for this to be a good investment property to keep as a rental. It also sounds like you haven't done the research yet to learn and understand real estate investments, and this is not a chapter in your life when you seem to have the time to do that.
The idea of throwing lots of money into fixing it up to rent is just further evidence that you don't know enough about what you're doing with real estate as an investment vehicle. You sound like you just want to hold on to the property to "hedge" for yourself for the future, and this is a terrible financial idea, given your situation. Sell now. You can always buy again if your circumstances change down the line.
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I’m gonna throw in another vote for selling it.
It’s not an ideal first rental, and doing it long-distance makes it even less ideal. Put this place on the market ASAP, move to San Antonio, and if you want to start landlording, look for a good investment property down there.
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Agree on selling. If you decide to keep, I think you will regret it, and absolutely DO NOT put money into the house to make it a rental. Either it rents as is, or it doesn't. If it's good enough for you to live in, what makes it bad as a rental??
How about this... you move to your new city, rent there for a year, keep all the equity from your home sale in short term savings so you can buy a duplex or triplex in your new city? This is house-hacking. You live in one unit, rent out the others and learn, learn, learn. Learn about it on Bigger Pockets. Then you can also spend a year getting to know the landlords and going to real estate investors meetings in your new market.
At least TALK to a realtor!
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Unless you rent out individual rooms, a 3 bedroom small house is worth the same to a tenant as a 3 bed big house. And if we assume that you're in new job city for 3-5 years minimum, that's enough time to trash a rental.
I'd sell it. Use the money to buy something that you research as a future rental if you want to be in real estate.
I also want to commend you on ending things with your former partner with dignity and respect. I was pretty shocked by some responses on this thread about how they would treat a live in partner of 7 years. You showed that you have the strength to do a hard thing in a respectful way.
And congratulations on your next adventure!
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I made it sound like a crap property hah.
Nothing really needs done to be rent ready currently aside from a few smoke detectors being added.
I was mixing up things I would do if I were to stay in this home vs things that would be required renting.
The house isn't huge (16/17 sq feet) by any means.
I've run the numbers with what has been consistent during my 4 years of ownership, cap rate on paper looks good with all the factors including a vacancy factor/repair factor; worse comes to worse I'll sell it anyways. I don't specifically need the equity for anything. I have a liquid sum set aside for another property purchase and I have a partner investor in my father (he's always looking to try stuff with me). i
I'm familiar with house hacking. I may pursue that in Texas. The biggest issue is knowing the area as it seems hit or miss down there. I had rented my spare bedroom in this current house for 600/month and had it filled for 2 years straight.
Maybe I need to sleep on it some more/do some deeper diving on biggerpockets. I'm just weighing the risk reward factor but would like to speak to someone in the actual business (have a few lunches scheduled this week with some property flippers and rental owners I know)
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I vote for selling as well. I have two rentals and would not feel comfortable if they weren't located near my home. Who will do your property management? Property managers don't seem to care about minimizing the landlord's cost for repairs...so your numbers may look significantly worse when you take that into consideration.
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I vote for selling as well. I have two rentals and would not feel comfortable if they weren't located near my home. Who will do your property management? Property managers don't seem to care about minimizing the landlord's cost for repairs...so your numbers may look significantly worse when you take that into consideration.
I have family and friends on the same street/within 5-10 minutes from it.
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Unless you rent out individual rooms, a 3 bedroom small house is worth the same to a tenant as a 3 bed big house. And if we assume that you're in new job city for 3-5 years minimum, that's enough time to trash a rental.
I'd sell it. Use the money to buy something that you research as a future rental if you want to be in real estate.
I also want to commend you on ending things with your former partner with dignity and respect. I was pretty shocked by some responses on this thread about how they would treat a live in partner of 7 years. You showed that you have the strength to do a hard thing in a respectful way.
And congratulations on your next adventure!
I have no useful real estate info, I just want to chime in and agree with @ElleFiji. Internet strangers can be cruel--I remember being advised by forum people to change the locks during my divorce, which would (a) have been illegal and (b) ultimately would have cost me the $25K in equity that my patience netted me.
I was really struck by what your newly-ex-girlfriend said about how she "trusted" you and "never thought you would do this." She is hurt and angry, I get it. But honestly, I don't think that's a mature way to look at a relationship. I wouldn't say that I trust my (new) husband not to break up with me. I mean, I don't think he will, but people's feelings can change. What I trust is that if his feelings were to change, he would treat me with generosity and compassion.* And I trust that in the course of the ordinary terrible things** that come up in life sometimes, he would treat me with empathy even if he did not see the situation the same way I did.
(*I think of this every month when I set aside money to pay his ex-wife's student loans :-). )
**Phrase stolen from a children's book series.
Which is all to say--to a casual internet stranger, you seem extremely trustworthy. You are treating her feelings with the care they deserve and trying very hard not to cause any gratuitous pain.
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Unless you rent out individual rooms, a 3 bedroom small house is worth the same to a tenant as a 3 bed big house. And if we assume that you're in new job city for 3-5 years minimum, that's enough time to trash a rental.
I'd sell it. Use the money to buy something that you research as a future rental if you want to be in real estate.
I also want to commend you on ending things with your former partner with dignity and respect. I was pretty shocked by some responses on this thread about how they would treat a live in partner of 7 years. You showed that you have the strength to do a hard thing in a respectful way.
And congratulations on your next adventure!
I have no useful real estate info, I just want to chime in and agree with @ElleFiji. Internet strangers can be cruel--I remember being advised by forum people to change the locks during my divorce, which would (a) have been illegal and (b) ultimately would have cost me the $25K in equity that my patience netted me.
I was really struck by what your newly-ex-girlfriend said about how she "trusted" you and "never thought you would do this." She is hurt and angry, I get it. But honestly, I don't think that's a mature way to look at a relationship. I wouldn't say that I trust my (new) husband not to break up with me. I mean, I don't think he will, but people's feelings can change. What I trust is that if his feelings were to change, he would treat me with generosity and compassion.* And I trust that in the course of the ordinary terrible things** that come up in life sometimes, he would treat me with empathy even if he did not see the situation the same way I did.
(*I think of this every month when I set aside money to pay his ex-wife's student loans :-). )
**Phrase stolen from a children's book series.
Which is all to say--to a casual internet stranger, you seem extremely trustworthy. You are treating her feelings with the care they deserve and trying very hard not to cause any gratuitous pain.
I love this girl. It's just hard.
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Unless you rent out individual rooms, a 3 bedroom small house is worth the same to a tenant as a 3 bed big house. And if we assume that you're in new job city for 3-5 years minimum, that's enough time to trash a rental.
I'd sell it. Use the money to buy something that you research as a future rental if you want to be in real estate.
I also want to commend you on ending things with your former partner with dignity and respect. I was pretty shocked by some responses on this thread about how they would treat a live in partner of 7 years. You showed that you have the strength to do a hard thing in a respectful way.
And congratulations on your next adventure!
I have no useful real estate info, I just want to chime in and agree with @ElleFiji. Internet strangers can be cruel--I remember being advised by forum people to change the locks during my divorce, which would (a) have been illegal and (b) ultimately would have cost me the $25K in equity that my patience netted me.
I was really struck by what your newly-ex-girlfriend said about how she "trusted" you and "never thought you would do this." She is hurt and angry, I get it. But honestly, I don't think that's a mature way to look at a relationship. I wouldn't say that I trust my (new) husband not to break up with me. I mean, I don't think he will, but people's feelings can change. What I trust is that if his feelings were to change, he would treat me with generosity and compassion.* And I trust that in the course of the ordinary terrible things** that come up in life sometimes, he would treat me with empathy even if he did not see the situation the same way I did.
(*I think of this every month when I set aside money to pay his ex-wife's student loans :-). )
**Phrase stolen from a children's book series.
Which is all to say--to a casual internet stranger, you seem extremely trustworthy. You are treating her feelings with the care they deserve and trying very hard not to cause any gratuitous pain.
I love this girl. It's just hard.
I know. And that's why it is fantastic that life is going to give you two geographic space. It's one of the cruelest life lessons that even when two people love each other, they aren't always good together. I have exes I still love, but the love changes to where I am not in love with them. And I'm happier apart.
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It was a big deal to realize with my ex (with whom I was together for 25 years, and have 2 kids together), love is not enough. I loved him. I still love him, but in a different way now (not romantic, more like family). He was a great boyfriend. After getting married and having kids with him I most likely would have stayed with him indefinitely had he not broke up with me. I don't think he is a bad person, but he has a drinking problem and was, as a friend put it, an "incapable" husband.
I think any relationship involves trade offs, and no one is a perfect person, but once you a relieved of a strain of pushing down things that are really important to you as not important, because your partner doesn't think they are important, there is sense of immeasurable relief.
Good luck on your journey!
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Yep, “love is not enough” was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn. But it is absolutely the truth.
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I vote for selling as well. I have two rentals and would not feel comfortable if they weren't located near my home. Who will do your property management? Property managers don't seem to care about minimizing the landlord's cost for repairs...so your numbers may look significantly worse when you take that into consideration.
I have family and friends on the same street/within 5-10 minutes from it.
Family and friends on the street doesn't do a lot of good, unless they are willing to be on call, which means getting a call at 2 am that water is pouring from the ceiling, and finding a plumber and getting flood damage crews in ASAP.
And even then, I think the point was that renters don't generally take as good care of a property as owners do. And they will call for professional help where an owner would likely DIY. The toilet is running? In a house I own, I diagnose it, buy a $9 part at Home Depot, and fix, if possible. When I'm renting, I call my landlord, and if he lives in Texas, he has to pay a plumber for that, which probably costs at least $75. And a property managers isn't going to go in and DIY that $9 repair, either. The ~10% you pay them covers them arranging for a plumber, and maybe getting a small discount for bulk business. If you don't get a manager, are those friends really prepared to manage a property for you? Are they going to do it for free? How are you going to screen tenants? What lease will you use?
These aren't insurmountable problems, of course. (Well, the fact that you may need to pay a PM and that your number wont work out may be...) But you have a lot on your plate right now without this stuff, and adding figuring all this out to your list, for a property that may not even be very profitable, seems like a not-great plan.
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I vote for selling as well. I have two rentals and would not feel comfortable if they weren't located near my home. Who will do your property management? Property managers don't seem to care about minimizing the landlord's cost for repairs...so your numbers may look significantly worse when you take that into consideration.
I have family and friends on the same street/within 5-10 minutes from it.
Family and friends on the street doesn't do a lot of good, unless they are willing to be on call, which means getting a call at 2 am that water is pouring from the ceiling, and finding a plumber and getting flood damage crews in ASAP.
And even then, I think the point was that renters don't generally take as good care of a property as owners do. And they will call for professional help where an owner would likely DIY. The toilet is running? In a house I own, I diagnose it, buy a $9 part at Home Depot, and fix, if possible. When I'm renting, I call my landlord, and if he lives in Texas, he has to pay a plumber for that, which probably costs at least $75. And a property managers isn't going to go in and DIY that $9 repair, either. The ~10% you pay them covers them arranging for a plumber, and maybe getting a small discount for bulk business. If you don't get a manager, are those friends really prepared to manage a property for you? Are they going to do it for free? How are you going to screen tenants? What lease will you use?
These aren't insurmountable problems, of course. (Well, the fact that you may need to pay a PM and that your number wont work out may be...) But you have a lot on your plate right now without this stuff, and adding figuring all this out to your list, for a property that may not even be very profitable, seems like a not-great plan.
Yeah, but that's also a good problem. My houise is by no means a 100% perfect property. The walls weren't sanded before paint, the floors are bamboo laminate and bubbling in a few spots, etc; which means I don't mind normal living wear as much as say-someone who owns a mansion and rents it. Of course then again that just falls back to charging more to cover....
I'm also not a skilled trades person by any means. I know a few contractors who would be able to source me fair labor which would be an expense of course; but that's just part of the game.
That's why I was leaning towards a property manager. I could do the research, find someone to go to for legal (drafting a agreement/if issues arise and eviction is required), find some contractors to call for repair work, find backups for both of these JIC etc-BUT a management company is already equipped for all this.
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My recommendation is to sell the house and cut all ties with your old life. Start something new and don't look back.
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My recommendation is to sell the house and cut all ties with your old life. Start something new and don't look back.
Considering the family lives up here I'll be looking back on holidays lol
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My recommendation is to sell the house and cut all ties with your old life. Start something new and don't look back.
Considering the family lives up here I'll be looking back on holidays lol
That's different than having a significant portion of your net worth tied up in your old life.
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My recommendation is to sell the house and cut all ties with your old life. Start something new and don't look back.
Considering the family lives up here I'll be looking back on holidays lol
That's different than having a significant portion of your net worth tied up in your old life.
Actually, I found that renting out a former residence was almost a better way of moving on from the memories than selling it: you get to see someone else living in the space and you are dealing with the issues of management in a very different way from when an owner-occupier. I very quickly learned to treat a house I had lived in for 17 years purely as someone else's home.
The other thing is: Zoocha is making a move to San Antonio for career reasons. He may stay there for a long time, but it's also possible that further career moves will take him elsewhere in the country or back to his home town. In either of those cases keeping the current house could make more sense than selling and buying property in scattered locations around the country.
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I vote for selling as well. I have two rentals and would not feel comfortable if they weren't located near my home. Who will do your property management? Property managers don't seem to care about minimizing the landlord's cost for repairs...so your numbers may look significantly worse when you take that into consideration.
I have family and friends on the same street/within 5-10 minutes from it.
Family and friends on the street doesn't do a lot of good, unless they are willing to be on call, which means getting a call at 2 am that water is pouring from the ceiling, and finding a plumber and getting flood damage crews in ASAP.
And even then, I think the point was that renters don't generally take as good care of a property as owners do. And they will call for professional help where an owner would likely DIY. The toilet is running? In a house I own, I diagnose it, buy a $9 part at Home Depot, and fix, if possible. When I'm renting, I call my landlord, and if he lives in Texas, he has to pay a plumber for that, which probably costs at least $75. And a property managers isn't going to go in and DIY that $9 repair, either. The ~10% you pay them covers them arranging for a plumber, and maybe getting a small discount for bulk business. If you don't get a manager, are those friends really prepared to manage a property for you? Are they going to do it for free? How are you going to screen tenants? What lease will you use?
These aren't insurmountable problems, of course. (Well, the fact that you may need to pay a PM and that your number wont work out may be...) But you have a lot on your plate right now without this stuff, and adding figuring all this out to your list, for a property that may not even be very profitable, seems like a not-great plan.
Yeah, but that's also a good problem. My houise is by no means a 100% perfect property. The walls weren't sanded before paint, the floors are bamboo laminate and bubbling in a few spots, etc; which means I don't mind normal living wear as much as say-someone who owns a mansion and rents it. Of course then again that just falls back to charging more to cover....
I'm also not a skilled trades person by any means. I know a few contractors who would be able to source me fair labor which would be an expense of course; but that's just part of the game.
That's why I was leaning towards a property manager. I could do the research, find someone to go to for legal (drafting a agreement/if issues arise and eviction is required), find some contractors to call for repair work, find backups for both of these JIC etc-BUT a management company is already equipped for all this.
What are the numbers? Your made a very rough estimate of rent. It seems unlikely to me that more square footage but the same number of bed/baths is going to bring in that much more. Maybe it will, but clearly you are guessing.
Until you have numbers, you can't make a rational decision about this. So talk to some PMs, since you admit you would likely hire one. See what they charge, which is usually a % of rent and then often a fee each time they have to find a new tenant. See if they will give you an estimated rent (they may not until you sigh with them). Do some research on realistic rents in your area. (This can be regional, but I find Hotpads to have lost of listings, from both professionally managed and owner-managed properties.) Even talk to your insurance company about what a rental (NOT renter's!) policy will cost. Contact your city to see if there is an annual fee for having a rental property.
Run the numbers. Then and only then can you make this decision, unless you are happy to make an emotional decision that has nothing to o with the numbers.
I don't think renting is an inherently terrible idea. But you sound completely ill-prepared to be a landlord or to make an educated decision. And if you don't want to put in the research, cool. But then you should sell.
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Sorry to jump topics but we haven't figured out the dogs yet (they were staying at her moms) and today the boy was sick so she's been texting me updates from the vet. It's weird like we have to stay in contact to get this paid and figured out/still haven't figured out if she's keeping both or just 1. He's pretty sick and they have to run a bunch of tests to see if he's anemic. I don't want to just be un compassionate and I can tell this is stressing her out along with all the rest.
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I was away all week, moving. Moving is hard. The less you take with you the easier it is. So figure out what you absolutely need and ditch the rest.
Comments:
Sell the house (use a realtor). It is a thing. It is one thing to come back to visit family, another to be worrying about a rental house. It will be a millstone around your neck if you move further away for your career.And it does give ExGF a tiny bit of hope. I've sold the house I loved so much I was going to die of old age in it, the house I moved to and the house that was my refuge after my separation and divorce. Houses are things. So is furniture.
New job - rent don't buy, for at least a year. Get to know the various neighbourhoods. See how the job goes. Why buy a house if you might be transferred down the road? Think of MMM's advice to live close to work to cut down on the commute.
Dogs - whatever you do, do not do shared custody where the dogs (or one dog) go back and forth. We did that for a few months with our dog and it was terribly hard on her.
Good luck.
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It almost sounds like she's using the dogs and moving as an excuse to keep up contact with you. I guess this being her first serious breakup, she doesn't realize that staying in contact just prolongs the agony. Much better to just rip that bandaid off. Decide who gets the dogs, get your stuff and move on with her life with no contact at all with you.
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Run the numbers. Then and only then can you make this decision, unless you are happy to make an emotional decision that has nothing to o with the numbers.
+1 and consider posting in the real estate section for feedback on the rent vs sell financials. Your insurance (and property taxes) may also increase if you rent. Once you have viable numbers, post the details if you'd like feedback for making an informed financial decision.
Sorry to hear about the one dog. If this is the dog you might be taking, then this seems like the time to do so. She could have the one dog (and get her a companion if needed), you can have the other dog who's fine on his own if that works for everyone. Will you be able to adequately care for a dog when you move?
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If the dog has been disrupted in his routine, going back and forth, it might be some stress from the changed environments, etc. Hope it's something as simple as that. I also think it makes sense for you to take the male dog if she wants to split them. I would let her make the decision on the dogs unless she refuses to decide, then you will have to make the decision, either both dogs to her or you take one.
ETA: What are the dog's symptoms?
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My ex and I literally stayed together for the dog. I know that sounds ridiculous but that dog was like a child to us. After the dog died, the relationship lost a critical piece that had been holding it together.
If you are both ok with each taking a dog, do it asap. Agree that each of you is completely responsible for the dog they have. If one of you runs into a situation where you can't keep the dog, let the other know so they can choose to take the dog instead of giving it to a stranger. Other than that, try to make it a clean break. Easier said than done for sure - especially when one of your fur babies is sick.
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Yesterday sucked.
The boy 11 year old was acting weird (couldn't walk) and had done it twice prior the other week. I had had blood tests run and they came back ok.
Girl took in at 1.30; he had to be carried. Red Blood count was low. Bleeding in the abdomen somewhere. Could have been a burst mass/rip due to throwing up/ingested poison etc. We had accidental insurance but without a definitive cause couldn't tell. Would have been 5-7k for blood transfusions and hospital plus surgery and he was already so weak.
So me, her, her sister, her dad, my mom stayed with him and we helped him go to sleeep. Literally can't stop crying as he was the best dog I've ever owned. It's hard because we want to comfort eachother and we're civil but obviously with how fresh all that is it's just a strange dynamic.
He was such a happy dog. Always wanted to be held/would nap anywhere. Greyhounds are a funny breed. He acted like a puppy nearly all the time and it's just not fair-I thought we had more years in him.
Between the car issues friday/the breakup and moving for 8 hours saturday/the new job and this-safe to say it's the worst week we've had. It was even raining yesterday.
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I am so, so sorry.
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That is completely awful
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Dude...that really sucks.
I'm so sorry.
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So sorry for your loss.
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Damn I'm sorry. It's rough to lose your furbaby.
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Oh, jeez. That's really hard. We recently had to go through putting a pet down for the first time (as adults/as a couple) after 19 years with our beloved cat. We had been prepared for a while b/c she was so old, and it was quick when it happened (decision within a couple of hours when she suddenly went downhill) but it turned out we weren't actually very prepared at all. We couldn't believe how much how it hurt. Still does, more than a year later.
I extend sympathy to you both.
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I'm so sorry : (
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I'm so sorry. I'm glad he had such a loving family who was willing to make the hard decision to love him in this one final way.
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Really sorry to hear. Condolences.
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So sorry for the loss of your beloved pet.
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Really sorry for your loss. It's so hard losing a pet, on top of everything else. Sending positive thoughts your way.
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That's just so hard. I'm really sorry. Losing beloved pets is incredibly hard in any circumstance. I'm sure it's even harder right now.
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Oh, no. How awful, at any time but especially at this time.
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I'm so sorry! That is very very difficult in the best of times, and this is not the best of times for you. You have my sympathies. You made the right choice not to delay his suffering. He is no longer in pain.
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I’m sorry to hear that. Take time for yourself for some self care (in whatever form that may take).
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I'm so sorry for your loss. That is heartbreaking. And worse than ever at this time. I'm so sorry you're going through all of this.
May next week be better.
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I'm sorry for your loss.
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I am so very sorry @zoochadookdook , what an unbelievable thing to happen. Thinking of you.
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Thanks all I'm just...processing it
The hard part is we're still talking about getting the younger dog to eat/getting pictures organized of him. It feels like I can't comfort her because of what we've been going through friday/saturday and now this but we're the ones who had him the last 4 years and just like I don't know how to treat our dynamic.
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I think you treat her like a good friend. The boundary is that you are not romantic partners or roommates anymore. Of course, you will both want some photos of your dogs, and you can make copies of photos pretty easily. The person who will take the younger dog is responsible for that dog's care concerns. If you want to reminisce together about your pup, I think that is OK. But you are obviously still moving away soon and that's your reality. Share some memories, have a nice talk but don't go super deep with it. Of course if either of you wants the space, then give the space. But it's OK to mourn a little bit together, just not together together.
And of course you both have other people in your support network that you can talk to, so you can each reach out to those connections when you are feeling low.
Again, so sorry for your loss.
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I am so sorry about your fur baby. We have lost 4 in 2 years because all 4 were old. It’s so difficult.
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@zoochadookdook, condolences re your greyhound!
I'm glad you already made your core life decisions (take job, leave girlfriend) before this. It's a sad time, but at least the road is clearer.
In case it helps, one thing is that you can be sympathetic with your ex while still being separate. For example, you can say, "Breaking up is hard for anyone. It's such a sad time. Our dear dog's passing makes it even harder. But I know you can get through this." As you probably already have been.
I guess you'll probably be the generous guy and leave her with the other dog (I hope the younger one comes through this!). In any case, sorry about losing your beloved dog.
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I'm sure it doesn't feel like it now, but moving is probably going to help both of you regarding processing everything. I couldn't go back to my house for a couple of days after we had to put our dog to sleep because everything reminded me of him. Sending lots of sympathy to both of you.
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Oh wow! This is so sad. I am very sorry to hear about the loss if your dog.
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I am very sorry for your loss of the dog.
If your GF wants to keep the other dog, then makr clear that she will need to pay for future pet visits, as that comes with dog ownership. If she can't, then maybe you should have the other dog.
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How are you doing, Zoocha?
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So sorry about the dog.
I agree with Linea, the remaining dog should have one owner (Former GF or you) and owner has all rights and responsibilities (like choosing the amount of vet care and paying for it).
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Looking at the silver lining of this past week's events, I think you might have enough material for a successful country music single. ;)
In all seriousness, tell me more about the car:
What gave anyone the impression that the head gasket was going? (Watery oil? White smoke from the exhaust?)
Was the coolant level full? (It may need topping off occasionally due to evaporation.)
Was the thermostat replaced? (Generally an extremely cheap and easy task.)
Could the water pump be going bad?
Might there be an issue with the radiator fan?
These are probably the most common reasons for overheating (off the top of my head).
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I'm alive. More moving her furniture this week. Less talking. Pretty sad as there's literally stacks of photos and other things around the house that are centered around our future (towels with the first letter of my last name, cute signs, pictures of us).
Missing the dog. Still feel like I left something lying around he could have gotten into or if I had ponied up the cash they would have found it was covered under insurance or something-idk.
Have a couch still and that's been bed since a week.5 ago. Just kind of one day at a time.
Messed up the first brisket I've ever tried to do. Pulled it at 205 internal temp but it dried it out too much :/
Regarding the car:
I had overheated a week.5 ago. I pulled over right away. This model (7th gen civic) is notorious for having a fragile head gasket. That being said I took it to a mechanic and had the cooling system pressure tested for a few hours. They found nothing. Charged 120 bucks.
Fast forward to this last week-I've seen a little coolant on the ground here and there-whatever just top it off. As soon as I get off work friday I start driving to a different mechanic as by this point it's like screw the other one. I get to a mile and a half of the other mechanic and notice the temp is rising over 50%. Pull over and there's coolant all over the engine bay. At this point big leak. I ended up driving it road by road, turning it off, letting it cool down and turning it off coasting/bump starting etc and got it to the new shop/walked a few miles home. Ended up buying a purple honda fit for $3000 (worth more imo) with 104k miles/5 spd to drive in the mean time and I actually may be keeping it depending on what the verdict is with my other one. Just more work.
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Good update, @zoochadookdook - and good work. Keep on plugging.
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I'm alive. More moving her furniture this week. Less talking. Pretty sad as there's literally stacks of photos and other things around the house that are centered around our future (towels with the first letter of my last name, cute signs, pictures of us).
Missing the dog. Still feel like I left something lying around he could have gotten into or if I had ponied up the cash they would have found it was covered under insurance or something-idk.
Have a couch still and that's been bed since a week.5 ago. Just kind of one day at a time.
Messed up the first brisket I've ever tried to do. Pulled it at 205 internal temp but it dried it out too much :/
Regarding the car:
I had overheated a week.5 ago. I pulled over right away. This model (7th gen civic) is notorious for having a fragile head gasket. That being said I took it to a mechanic and had the cooling system pressure tested for a few hours. They found nothing. Charged 120 bucks.
Fast forward to this last week-I've seen a little coolant on the ground here and there-whatever just top it off. As soon as I get off work friday I start driving to a different mechanic as by this point it's like screw the other one. I get to a mile and a half of the other mechanic and notice the temp is rising over 50%. Pull over and there's coolant all over the engine bay. At this point big leak. I ended up driving it road by road, turning it off, letting it cool down and turning it off coasting/bump starting etc and got it to the new shop/walked a few miles home. Ended up buying a purple honda fit for $3000 (worth more imo) with 104k miles/5 spd to drive in the mean time and I actually may be keeping it depending on what the verdict is with my other one. Just more work.
Buying the Fit is a great example of why having a decent stash is awesome. Yes, as Mustascians we are careful with money. But, when we really do need to buy something functional and necessary it's.... no big deal. That is FAR different than most people's experiences.
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I'm alive. More moving her furniture this week. Less talking. Pretty sad as there's literally stacks of photos and other things around the house that are centered around our future (towels with the first letter of my last name, cute signs, pictures of us).
Missing the dog. Still feel like I left something lying around he could have gotten into or if I had ponied up the cash they would have found it was covered under insurance or something-idk.
Have a couch still and that's been bed since a week.5 ago. Just kind of one day at a time.
Messed up the first brisket I've ever tried to do. Pulled it at 205 internal temp but it dried it out too much :/
Regarding the car:
I had overheated a week.5 ago. I pulled over right away. This model (7th gen civic) is notorious for having a fragile head gasket. That being said I took it to a mechanic and had the cooling system pressure tested for a few hours. They found nothing. Charged 120 bucks.
Fast forward to this last week-I've seen a little coolant on the ground here and there-whatever just top it off. As soon as I get off work friday I start driving to a different mechanic as by this point it's like screw the other one. I get to a mile and a half of the other mechanic and notice the temp is rising over 50%. Pull over and there's coolant all over the engine bay. At this point big leak. I ended up driving it road by road, turning it off, letting it cool down and turning it off coasting/bump starting etc and got it to the new shop/walked a few miles home. Ended up buying a purple honda fit for $3000 (worth more imo) with 104k miles/5 spd to drive in the mean time and I actually may be keeping it depending on what the verdict is with my other one. Just more work.
Buying the Fit is a great example of why having a decent stash is awesome. Yes, as Mustascians we are careful with money. But, when we really do need to buy something functional and necessary it's.... no big deal. That is FAR different than most people's experiences.
I have way too much liquid; but with the way the dow just plunged I don't feel awful not having it all in VTSAX right now.
Yeah I look at cars a fair bit on craigslist and had the option to buy a newer civic/accord/corrolla or similar but settled on this for a few reasons; one being it's near the bottom of its depreciation. I see several with around 200k+ for sale for 2500-3k and this was a decent deal based on the fact they guy was a dog trainer-nothing a detail won't sort out.
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Thanks for the update, but I just really wanted to say you'll pull through this and things will get better!
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A purple 5-speed Fit sounds like a great choice! Good luck either way you go with the car.
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As soon as I get off work friday I start driving to a different mechanic as by this point it's like screw the other one.
Agreed. Kick him to the curb!! Any kind of coolant leak should have been found pretty quick (and if they didn't test at operating temp, shame on them). Hopefully it's a hose, or worst-case an evaporator core that can be bypassed (who needs heat in Texas, right? (J/K)). Good luck with the Fit acquisition!
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Awesome score on the Honda Fit! With the brisket, that's only to be expected for a 1st attempt (my brother is now a master at this, but hardly started that way...many, many fails).
Have you scheduled any counseling sessions? This is a lot to mourn all at once between your dog and going through all the things that remind you of the life you were building that is no more. People process things differently, but bottling things up doesn't work. Hang in there.
The move and starting your new job will be a lot to focus on too. We're all rooting for you @zoochadookdook!
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Hey, @zoochadookdook , how are things going? Would love an update!
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Hey, @zoochadookdook , how are things going? Would love an update!
+1 Hope you are enjoying the long weekend!
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Hey all;
Just got back from a week/half in TX job training. It seems like it'll be pretty solid. Hours aren't bad. Friends work there. Just a lot of meetings and learning the tools. I visited a few academies and liked them both while down there. Back at the house trying to figure out what to do with it (no official move date yet). Thanks for the wishes. Have the girl dog saturday to watch so that'll be nice.
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Thanks for the update! I’m glad to hear that things are progressing well.
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Considering starting a new topic to discuss my last 2-3 years.
Tldr;
I've been in a relationship that's been up and down to the max.
I care a ton about this girl but between myself talking to other people leading to use breaking up (wasn't ready and didn't understand that in a relationship) to us getting back together and me finding out 3 months later she slept with her boss and still tried to maintain the job to get a promotion whilst he was hitting her up when we got back together/lied about getting with said boss - neither of us has any foundation of trust and it's just super hard/feels like I'm going crazy just trying to get over what we've done to eachother. Everything in our life right now is just a lot of mistrust and thinking the other is hiding something/so on.
This girl is super loyal when we are together, cares the world about me, I feel that and love her back but we're in a tough spot - I'm thinking I just need to get all this out on paper like I did with this post. Hope all is well in ya'lls worlds.
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Ohhh, Zoo.
I’m so sorry. That must hurt so much.
Honestly. I just wish so, so much that you would let go and move on.
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She slept with her boss.
This girl is super loyal.
Uhm, no she's not 'super loyal'. You deserve better. Dump her and move on.
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Ohhh, Zoo.
I’m so sorry. That must hurt so much.
Honestly. I just wish so, so much that you would let go and move on.
To be clear - this is a new relationship.
It started when I moved down and I treated it like - well I don't know. I didn't respect her or it the way I should have - then when we seperated I wanted to get back together and we spoke for a while whilst I tried to maintain if I was on her timeline/path for moving forward and to know if she could forgive me.
In the in between she was given a new job - in which she was groomed by her "boss" who basically told her he was divorcing his wife and would fly her out (unbeknownst to the wife) on business trips. We were together during some of this and I could tell this was a crazy situation (he treated her like a servant/40k a year and expected her on the phone whenever however). I found out when we officially got back together after a bad breakup for a month that she had slept with him (he was promising her a car/raise/better job etc). I found out 3 months post - the whole time she had still maintained this job and had declined his advances in texts multiple times (despite me not seeing those) - When i found the texts I confronted her and she left the job right away. I then called the guys wife (whom he made every effort to hide). Turns out he was a serial cheater - prostitutes and such - prior to marraige and she still suspected a ton. Had no idea my gf was on these trips or so on and so forth but was greatful. I cancelled the cruise right away and we just had all kinds of arguments/talks/so on and so forth from there.
I guess we've been in a loop for a few months now - i'm trying to get over what I found out - despite the fact we weren't together when it happened (although her using him/leading him on to keep the job - which is the best job/career/treatment of being an employee she's ever received apparantly) - and she's trying to get over me talking to other girls whilst we were together for the first year.
Emotionally it's rough and I feel like we both are just trying to move past what the other has done and feel normal again - I'll make a whole post detailing it tomorrow
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Why did you feel it was your place to call the wife of your girlfriend's boss to report he was cheating on her with your off again in again GF? That's a wild overstep.
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Oh boy. I’m so sorry to see this update and I’m sorry ou are still struggling.
I wish you could see yourself from the outside to recognize how unhappy this person is making you. You deserve a lot better. This is not healthy.
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To start with, the woman you are talking about was groomed, exploited and abused by a predatory man. I wish there were some sort of app for teenage and college age girls "Predatory men and the methods they use to exploit you" which could help them steer clear of that sort of situation. Looking at things from her point of view I think the best thing would be to move on not only from that man but also from this unsatisfactory on/off relationship she has had with you which will forever be tied up with her unhappy experience of being exploited by that man. By all means be a friend to her, if that works for both of you.
Looking at things from your point of view, you have a long history of trying to hold on to relationships which are less than satisfactory and difficulty in finding your way through those relationships to the possibility of something more satisfactory. I think you need to internalise the concepts "clean break" and "not being the sort of dog that turns around and sniffs its own poo" (sorry if that's a bit graphic).
As for you "talking to other girls" while you were together for a year, I've got to admit I'm not up on current dating mores. I understand that there can be an initial period of not being exclusive in a budding relationship. I wouldn't have thought that should last for a year, though: at some point you need to decide either this is possibly going somewhere and should be exclusive or you decide it's not going anywhere and (depending on how you both feel) it should either end or turn into a "booty call" situation. Again, you seem to have put off making this decision and just let the whole situation drift on in an unsatisfactory manner. That's on you, but also partly on your girlfriend for not calling you out on it sooner - which makes me think that the two of you together are probably not a healthy dynamic, even if the poor woman didn't have the fallout from her abuser hanging over her.
And I agree with charis: talking to your ex's abuser's wife can have no good outcomes. I'm not sure why you did it but whatever your reason it wasn't a good one. Use this to learn where good boundaries (and good manners) in personal conduct are.
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Trust issues and missteps from both sides? This girl's not the right fit man. Time to move on. Again. Don't let this one drag on like the last one did because of sunk costs.
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To start with, the woman you are talking about was groomed, exploited and abused by a predatory man. I wish there were some sort of app for teenage and college age girls "Predatory men and the methods they use to exploit you" which could help them steer clear of that sort of situation. Looking at things from her point of view I think the best thing would be to move on not only from that man but also from this unsatisfactory on/off relationship she has had with you which will forever be tied up with her unhappy experience of being exploited by that man. By all means be a friend to her, if that works for both of you.
Looking at things from your point of view, you have a long history of trying to hold on to relationships which are less than satisfactory and difficulty in finding your way through those relationships to the possibility of something more satisfactory. I think you need to internalise the concepts "clean break" and "not being the sort of dog that turns around and sniffs its own poo" (sorry if that's a bit graphic).
As for you "talking to other girls" while you were together for a year, I've got to admit I'm not up on current dating mores. I understand that there can be an initial period of not being exclusive in a budding relationship. I wouldn't have thought that should last for a year, though: at some point you need to decide either this is possibly going somewhere and should be exclusive or you decide it's not going anywhere and (depending on how you both feel) it should either end or turn into a "booty call" situation. Again, you seem to have put off making this decision and just let the whole situation drift on in an unsatisfactory manner. That's on you, but also partly on your girlfriend for not calling you out on it sooner - which makes me think that the two of you together are probably not a healthy dynamic, even if the poor woman didn't have the fallout from her abuser hanging over her.
And I agree with charis: talking to your ex's abuser's wife can have no good outcomes. I'm not sure why you did it but whatever your reason it wasn't a good one. Use this to learn where good boundaries (and good manners) in personal conduct are.
All of this.
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Well no new advice from me, just posting to say I am reading and I feel for you, no judgements we all make mistakes , dont be too hard on yourself.
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It seems like you have a pattern of not being able to walk away from relationships when they are very clearly not working and badly damaged. You cling, even after they are essentially over in all but name.
And from a larger perspective, it sounds like you like the idea of having a girlfriend/partner, and you like the idea of who you make these specific women out to be, but you see that far more than you see the reality of them. You love the idea of who you think they are, not who they actually are. You love the idea of a relationship and try to shoehorn the relationship you are in, and the woman you are in it with, into that vision, rather than going out and actually finding something close to the vision. "Insert nice woman into girlfriend role", rather than developing a healthy, stable, relatively drama-free relationship organically. I think maybe you want it so badly that you are willing to tell yourself you have it, repeatedly, when you clearly don't.
You say she "led him on" to keep the job. If a woman has to let her boss think he might get in her pants again in order to keep her job, that's abusive, disgusting, and illegal on his part. A woman doing what she has to in order to not be fired for not sleeping her boss is in a shit situation, doing the best she can. She is not "leading anyone one". She is dealing with intense sexual harassment and is trying not to lose her livelihood. And the fact that you don't acknowledge that are are upset about it doesn't say great things about you, and is something you need to explore. On your own. ruly is.
Meanwhile you were "talking to other girls" for a year. That can mean a lot of things but it sounds like at best it was poor judgement and disrespectful to your partner, and at worst it was an emotional affair.
Walk away. Start therapy ASAP, and maybe make a rule for yourself that you absolutely will not date anyone for at least 6 months (and that you need to be doing counseling that entire time). You've got some stuff to work through and until you do, it is very unlikely you will ever be able to find a healthy relationship or be the partner that someone healthy and stable needs you to be.
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Zooch never said she led the boss on - "to stay employed" . He said she led him on, and possibly slept with him, in order to " get a promotion". Huge difference.
Why would the boss tell her he was " getting a divorce" ? That has nothing to do with a promotion , {or keeping her job} and everything to do with trying to entice her into a 'serious' intimate relationship.
Nowhere does Zooch state that the boss said "bleep me or your fired" or " bleep me and you can have a raise". Lots of jumping to conclusions based on what's been written so far, perhaps by myself as well.
a] girlfriend accepts new position within company while dating Zooch
b] GF goes on out of town business trips with Boss, getting treated "like a servant". Boss dangles idea of car/ raise and tells GF he's getting divorced.
c] Zooch and GF break up for 1 month
d] GF sleeps with Boss within 29 days of breakup - maybe because she is willing to trade sex for future advancement, or is actually attracted to boss, or is horny for physical contact.
e] Zooch and GF get back together, presumably they are being sexually intimate, and GF neglects to tell Z she's been getting jiggy w/ Boss
f] Boss tries for more liasons w/ GF but she shuts him down, keeps her job, doesn't get demoted.
g] Eventually Zooch figures out the subterfuge, they have a serious discussion, instead of trying another position at the company, she quits.
Advice for Zooch. Stop taking GF's on cruises. It worked out badly with the last GF.
And now you cancelled a cruise you were going to take current GF on, because the fight/discussion happened.
Maybe you dangling the cruise to her , was not much different than Boss dangling the car...?
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Maybe you should start dating women that are low drama. And treat them well, from the beginning.
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Zooch never said she led the boss on - "to stay employed" . He said she led him on, and possibly slept with him, in order to " get a promotion". Huge difference.
Why would the boss tell her he was " getting a divorce" ? That has nothing to do with a promotion , {or keeping her job} and everything to do with trying to entice her into a 'serious' intimate relationship.
Nowhere does Zooch state that the boss said "bleep me or your fired" or " bleep me and you can have a raise". Lots of jumping to conclusions based on what's been written so far, perhaps by myself as well.
a] girlfriend accepts new position within company while dating Zooch
b] GF goes on out of town business trips with Boss, getting treated "like a servant". Boss dangles idea of car/ raise and tells GF he's getting divorced.
c] Zooch and GF break up for 1 month
d] GF sleeps with Boss within 29 days of breakup - maybe because she is willing to trade sex for future advancement, or is actually attracted to boss, or is horny for physical contact.
e] Zooch and GF get back together, presumably they are being sexually intimate, and GF neglects to tell Z she's been getting jiggy w/ Boss
f] Boss tries for more liasons w/ GF but she shuts him down, keeps her job, doesn't get demoted. Eventually Zooch figures out the subterfuge, they have a serious discussion, instead of trying to go back to her old/another position at the company, she quits.
Um, gross.
First, it sounds like you don't have much understanding of power dynamics and how they play into sexual pressure and sexual harassment. And as for the bolded, he said, "although her using him/leading him on to keep the job ". (See below.) That is cut directly from his post. Unless you are arguing that "keep the job" and "stay employed" are not the same thing, he did in fact say that.
And as for point d, you left or, "or maybe because she feared that turning down her boss' very aggressive sexual advances could lead to her losing her job".
She neglected to tell him she had "gotten jiggy" (Jesus, really??), perhaps in part because SHE WAS A VICTIM OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT, and that stuff can be hard to talk about. Why is it hard to talk about? Well I think you post quite clearly demonstrates why.
Ohhh, Zoo.
I’m so sorry. That must hurt so much.
Honestly. I just wish so, so much that you would let go and move on.
To be clear - this is a new relationship.
It started when I moved down and I treated it like - well I don't know. I didn't respect her or it the way I should have - then when we seperated I wanted to get back together and we spoke for a while whilst I tried to maintain if I was on her timeline/path for moving forward and to know if she could forgive me.
In the in between she was given a new job - in which she was groomed by her "boss" who basically told her he was divorcing his wife and would fly her out (unbeknownst to the wife) on business trips. We were together during some of this and I could tell this was a crazy situation (he treated her like a servant/40k a year and expected her on the phone whenever however). I found out when we officially got back together after a bad breakup for a month that she had slept with him (he was promising her a car/raise/better job etc). I found out 3 months post - the whole time she had still maintained this job and had declined his advances in texts multiple times (despite me not seeing those) - When i found the texts I confronted her and she left the job right away. I then called the guys wife (whom he made every effort to hide). Turns out he was a serial cheater - prostitutes and such - prior to marraige and she still suspected a ton. Had no idea my gf was on these trips or so on and so forth but was greatful. I cancelled the cruise right away and we just had all kinds of arguments/talks/so on and so forth from there.
I guess we've been in a loop for a few months now - i'm trying to get over what I found out - despite the fact we weren't together when it happened (although her using him/leading him on to keep the job - which is the best job/career/treatment of being an employee she's ever received apparantly) - and she's trying to get over me talking to other girls whilst we were together for the first year.
Emotionally it's rough and I feel like we both are just trying to move past what the other has done and feel normal again - I'll make a whole post detailing it tomorrow
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Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts
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Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts
Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that). With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent. Maybe she would have done it anyway. But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed.
So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him. Whatevs.
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Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts
Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that). With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent. Maybe she would have done it anyway. But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed.
So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him. Whatevs.
This is a perennial topic at Captain Awkward. Creepy dudes gonna creep if they have the power. And "have the power" includes consequences happening to the person being pressured, not the person doing the pressuring.
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Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts
Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that). With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent. Maybe she would have done it anyway. But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed.
So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him. Whatevs.
This is a perennial topic at Captain Awkward. Creepy dudes gonna creep if they have the power. And "have the power" includes consequences happening to the person being pressured, not the person doing the pressuring.
Yep. I had to threaten to file harassment charges before my former choir director would leave me alone and stop stalking my house and social media, and he had no influence on my ability to earn a livelihood. Still damaged my reputation in the local choral community. I can't imagine being backed into a corner by my employer if I didn't feel I had any recourse.
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Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts
Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that). With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent. Maybe she would have done it anyway. But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed.
So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him. Whatevs.
This is a perennial topic at Captain Awkward. Creepy dudes gonna creep if they have the power. And "have the power" includes consequences happening to the person being pressured, not the person doing the pressuring.
Yep. I had to threaten to file harassment charges before my former choir director would leave me alone and stop stalking my house and social media, and he had no influence on my ability to earn a livelihood. Still damaged my reputation in the local choral community. I can't imagine being backed into a corner by my employer if I didn't feel I had any recourse.
Total sympathy, that sucks.
I didn't get it much (innuendo tended to go over my head when I was young, often still does) but I have seen it happen even in a strong union setting. She ended up totally changing careers, not just jobs.
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OP, just a thought, but you might want to change your journal title to reflect your present situation. If you go back to your very first post you can edit it.
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Ooof. OP, you really have quite a talent for getting yourself into relationship messes. I'm going to also recommend that you need to get into therapy. There's a lot of unhealthy and unhelpful patterns that you've got, and a good therapist can help you work through those.
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OP, just a thought, but you might want to change your journal title to reflect your present situation. If you go back to your very first post you can edit it.
I think that’s a good idea, too, OP. Others might make the mistake I made thinking you were still talking about the same woman if they don’t read through the whole thing carefully.
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OP, just a thought, but you might want to change your journal title to reflect your present situation. If you go back to your very first post you can edit it.
I think that’s a good idea, too, OP. Others might make the mistake I made thinking you were still talking about the same woman if they don’t read through the whole thing carefully.
That's what I thought too, so I was totally flabbergasted by the update.
OP, you seemed to have learned a lesson when you broke up with your 2019 girlfriend. But it looks like you got yourself into a whole other level of dysfunction with your 2022 girlfriend. I also recommend therapy and staying single until you can work out these recurring issues you have with your romantic relationships.
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Seems like you are repeating a pattern from your previous relationship.
(1) The relationship is soured from the very beginning when you are either cheating or flirting (?) with other women.
(2) The girlfriend cannot get over this and does not forgive you, but stays with you anyway and later keeps raising the matter as a guilt trip.
(3) The girlfriend herself has a thorny issue that undermines the relationship. (In this case, sleeping with her boss and not telling you. You weren't technically dating at the time, so it wasn't cheating exactly, but this is a really huge thing to just not mention, especially as it sounds like it was a major source of stress in her work life. She was facing ongoing sexual harassment from her boss and felt like she had to keep it a secret.)
(4) Resentments linger, poisoning both your lives, yet you don't break up. Circular arguments go on and on and on.
(5) You want to take your girlfriend on a nice cruise. But the cruise is cursed thanks to points 1-4. Mutual distrust strips away the possibility of just being normal and happy together on a boat.
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Her ex-boss seems HORRIBLE. Maybe you could forgive her, considering that he was a creep and liar who had a lot of power over her, controlling her employment. But that's only one part of the problem. She also is still upset about your "talking with other girls" more than a year ago. Once again you're locked in a blame-game spiral that might never end.
Please don't let this go on and on like with your last girlfriend. It would be better to break up sooner rather than let this eat you both alive for years.
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I see less of a pattern, and more of a theme: guilt.
Certainly someone who cheats and faces their partner's anger is going to feel guilty... maybe for years, which is what it sounded like in the 7 year relationship. But a quote highlighted it for me, when that girlfriend lamented not growing old together. Zooch replied it was "not fair" for him to "take away her vision of the future". But a shared future isn't hers to own - it's shared. To me, this was purely guilt talking - not just sympathy, but guilt. I view that relationship as mostly driven by guilt, highlighted by the years of sexless relationship.
Now maybe finding someone ashamed of how their boss used them is a pattern, or maybe not. But it suggests seeing a therapist to discuss guilt and relationships might be valuable for Zooch. I could also be wrong - maybe guilt will not be a factor in the next relationship... but I suspect it will.
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I see less of a pattern, and more of a theme: guilt.
Certainly someone who cheats and faces their partner's anger is going to feel guilty... maybe for years, which is what it sounded like in the 7 year relationship. But a quote highlighted it for me, when that girlfriend lamented not growing old together. Zooch replied it was "not fair" for him to "take away her vision of the future". But a shared future isn't hers to own - it's shared. To me, this was purely guilt talking - not just sympathy, but guilt. I view that relationship as mostly driven by guilt, highlighted by the years of sexless relationship.
Now maybe finding someone ashamed of how their boss used them is a pattern, or maybe not. But it suggests seeing a therapist to discuss guilt and relationships might be valuable for Zooch. I could also be wrong - maybe guilt will not be a factor in the next relationship... but I suspect it will.
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I suspect it will as well, not least because Zooch seems to have trouble with true fidelity and full commitment, so he creates things to later feel guilty about. He cheats, he "talks to other girls" to a level that his partner is not only not okay with, but that she carries continued anger or pain over. Then he feels guilty about those things. The root of that that need to be addressed is, of course, the lack of full and faithful commitment in the first place. (Though I agree that he also maybe carries the guilt in a ay that makes it all even more unhealthy. Would he have tolerated years in a sexless relationship, when sex is clearly important to him, if he didn't have that guilt? Hard to say, but certainly it seems less likely. It sounds like they both used his past bad acts and guilt to give her a free pass in some ways.) But regardless of that, most relationships never fully recover from cheating, so once the trust is broken, the relationship is likely doomed regardless of how he processes and carries that guilt.) Some of that may just have to do with is own commitment issues and FOMO, and some of it may be due to the fact that he picks the wrong partners so is never quit as committed as one needs to be. All of those are things that a great therapist can help with.
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TLDR;
this boss was/is a massive POS - he is a serial cheater/sociopath/manipulator - I can at least see that and understand why she acted how she did in some metrics
*I have a therapist - I haven't seen him in a month. I can't say if he's good or bad just that I like him I guess but it's a lot of words at a wall
*I did not cheat physically but emotionally certainly. That was scummy and unfair and laid a shitty foundation. I guess if I had to say why I wanted emotional attention? That led to emotional connections but I never wanted to date/see those people in person.
*This relationship - or the first part began in 2020. I definitely have a propensity for attachment/attachment issues that's becoming more and more clear
*This is hard - she loves me - constantly affirms that and talks about our future/makes plans/etc etc. She's a loving person wants a family and has had a shitty life in a lot of aspects. She currently lives with me and works with me on weekends on my start up and our lives are super ingrained. That being said here's some more talking points.
Hey all - I'll give the whole shebang story tomorrow - sorry work has been a bear
I have reason to believe this was definitely a power dynamic thing over time and in the moment we were not together. Does that make it suck less? Not at all - but here are some details
*She has worked many dumpy jobs in customer service and has been sexually victimized several times. When pursuing legal recorse she was previously fired with no consequence to her employer.
*Her job prior was a similar company culture. They'd go out and party and hired a lot of younger girls to go around with the executives. She was 19-20 at the time and had never had that sort of experience - this boss had worked for that company and they had known eachother from events - hence how she was offered this job years later. She had actually had a relationship with a corporate guy at that company that messed her up (he had a wife and kids he hid from her and she had no idea).
*In this new job we were having issues and she was taken on trips/treated well for once. This new "ceo" took her and put her in front of investors/to secure funding and all the corporate events/talked her up. She was told many times he could make her successful and things along the lines of buying her a car and such. Granted she did an insane amount of work (was expected to answer the phone whenever in the eve/early mornings) and worked 70+ hour weeks - but whenever it came time to talk about a pay raise it was always downplayed her work. This guy had funding and spent it on travel - food -whatever which is kind of funny as the company still hasn't turned any sort of profit.
*When we broke up officially right around her birthday is when he first moved in on her - basically he sent her a bday dinner or whatever and it turned flirty from there. She thought we weren't getting back together and of course her friends were like live your best life. They didn't see the shitty womanizing red flag side of this "married" guy I had seen whilst her living with me working and hearing him speak. When we broke up we had been going on time where I didn't know if I was in line with her life goals and such and really it wasn't working through and yeah - so we were seperated and kind of talking on and off whilst talking to other people.
*She was also told he was divorcing his wife amongst many other things. Accordingly the wife had no idea just suspicions of him since he had been to therapy prior and seems to be a sociopath. He had always had his background blurred on meetings to hide his wife - had had her off his social media etc etc. After they slept together he apparantly went to call his kids and she heard him tell his wife he loved her and that's when she basically went off on him and broke it off in text when she came back from the trip. I had also texted her on that trip I loved her and wanted to try to make us work and she said she had been waiting to hear that for so long and she didn't think I wanted to be with her until I sent that and it was like a lightbulb moment of "really - it took all this to hear we should be together". I don't know - I think she had a lot going on and really just made a bad choice on information she was given.
*He wouldn't talk to her for a month plus after that - I found texts several months later where he had said he missed her ect and seeing pictures of her and such but she had told him she wasn't going to cheat etc but still wanted to be friends. According to her she wanted to get to january where she was supposed to get a decent raise and then look for another job. The raise was shit to be honest and he basically talked to her about she shouldn't work that much and yada yada yada despite telling her and saying she should do all the tasks. She had also refused to go on a work trip to florida in that time unless I could come and my big red flag was when he said don't come I would be a distraction (lmao what the fuck). So she wasn't telling him to fuck off exactly but she also was in a hard spot of career/career goals/starting to apply at different jobs and hoping he wouldn't fire her.
When I found out I kind of figured the situation. According to her she cut ties with the other guys she was talking to at the time and she had cut him out in that way after that trip completely. We had sort of been talking - I was watching her dog even but it was on the aftermath of our "worst" breakup and she was definitive we weren't together at the time. She was in a hard spot as she wants to be successful and this was the first time any job has treated her beyond shitty and she's a crazy hard worker - and I sort of understand she was groomed into this. She was molested several times as a young child by various family members and even her mom had told her she shouldn't leave this job (she knew something was going on but no idea on the craziness of this dudes actual lies) - which is a huge warning sign. Her basic thought process was do whatever it takes to be successful and it's just sad. When I found out she quit - he was telling her all this shit on how no one else would hire her or view her as a professional and even wanted her to stay - which was insane to me. She has worked with me on my side company for a few weeks and just got a new position for
Let it be known that I was talking to other girls prior - we separated after that and I was definitely at fault for not being in the relationship 100% in the first place. She doesn't trust me in the background due to that and constantly needs to know if girls are contacting me/she feels like I could be. I feel like I trust her because I kind of get this situation but as a whole I feel lied to and just never viewed her as that kind of person. She's so misguided and has put trust in so much of the wrong things and I'm just sad daily.
There's a bunch more to it - but that's my life as of now - we get through the daily. I don't train much at the gyms - although she may start coming - as there's girls there I was friends with but because I never talked about them she's thinking they were girls I was "talking too" at the time. She also doesn't go out etc outside of this new job which is fine - I'm a home body. The good news is her new position is in a child care facility and they are mostly female/female owned and I'm hoping it will show her a different perspective on work and treatment and life as a whole - she deserves to understand that guys aren't always going to abuse her and she doesn't have to be silent about it to keep her job.
Hope ya'll are doing well - I'm sorry I don't have a super happy thing to type up it's just I have literally no one else to talk to. Even my therapist I feel disconnected from and my friends/family I'm generally distant.
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It seems like you have a pattern of not being able to walk away from relationships when they are very clearly not working and badly damaged. You cling, even after they are essentially over in all but name.
And from a larger perspective, it sounds like you like the idea of having a girlfriend/partner, and you like the idea of who you make these specific women out to be, but you see that far more than you see the reality of them. You love the idea of who you think they are, not who they actually are. You love the idea of a relationship and try to shoehorn the relationship you are in, and the woman you are in it with, into that vision, rather than going out and actually finding something close to the vision. "Insert nice woman into girlfriend role", rather than developing a healthy, stable, relatively drama-free relationship organically. I think maybe you want it so badly that you are willing to tell yourself you have it, repeatedly, when you clearly don't.
You say she "led him on" to keep the job. If a woman has to let her boss think he might get in her pants again in order to keep her job, that's abusive, disgusting, and illegal on his part. A woman doing what she has to in order to not be fired for not sleeping her boss is in a shit situation, doing the best she can. She is not "leading anyone one". She is dealing with intense sexual harassment and is trying not to lose her livelihood. And the fact that you don't acknowledge that are are upset about it doesn't say great things about you, and is something you need to explore. On your own. ruly is.
Meanwhile you were "talking to other girls" for a year. That can mean a lot of things but it sounds like at best it was poor judgement and disrespectful to your partner, and at worst it was an emotional affair.
Walk away. Start therapy ASAP, and maybe make a rule for yourself that you absolutely will not date anyone for at least 6 months (and that you need to be doing counseling that entire time). You've got some stuff to work through and until you do, it is very unlikely you will ever be able to find a healthy relationship or be the partner that someone healthy and stable needs you to be.
I was INSANELY pissed because I knew for months this POS was manipulating her. Even back together I could tell from the hours she worked and from how he expected her to tell him whatever whenever - It was VERY apparant it was in no way shape or form professional or healthy - however whenever I or any other friend would tell her or voice concerns it would turn into a fight. It was a start up with like 4 employees and their argument was (despite paying contracters and such much more than her) that they couldn't afford to pay her more - and she actually enjoyed being given real work not just answering phones or food or retail - she built and designed their entire website/api intergration/POS and ran their weekend popups amongst many other tasks for the fact that she thought she would be successful or at least gain the experience to make a bunch somewhere else.
When I saw the texts I was so fucking upset because I knew
1) she didn't tell me when I asked if anything had happened when we got back together
2)literally I had seen and felt all these warning signs and been told to trust her - and I'm upset she ever had to feel like that was a position she had to stay in for financial stability/anything - it was a start up and this is the "ceo" so where else could she go? Prior she had been fired with no legal recourse to the manager from a very large pizza chain and in her mind no system works. It's extremely frustrating and disgusting for anyone to act in that manner - that's why I went and found his actual wife and called her. Fuck him .
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Why did you feel it was your place to call the wife of your girlfriend's boss to report he was cheating on her with your off again in again GF? That's a wild overstep.
We had been together for 3 months. She lives with me and work was constantly a fight - she was working til 9 - weekends etc. When I found out and she had said he told her they were getting divorced and such - I was pissed and wanted to know the truth so I contacted the wife.
I didn't have to but I was so sick of hearing this guy talk to people or the things she'd tell me - and I wanted to know if he was using her the whole time or if he was just a dick and actually was running a company/her career there had merit. Turns out that dude lied about everything up and down and has a sex addiction - not to mention his wife even worked at the company and my gf didn't even know - nor had she met or known my gf had gone on so many work trips. I guess he had previously gotten fired from another job and she had built his career back and he deleted all the evidence of his prior infedelity from the wives laptop. It just gets worse and worse lol. I have a whole ass hour long recorded conversation about him.
In short I wanted my GF to know who she trusted and to know if I was fucking crazy for my suspicions. Also fuck that guy - he thinks he's smarter than everyone else/invincible because he preys on young girls with no voice and I wanted him to see people won't deal with that shit. He was still texting my gf months later trying to say he missed her - he'd fly her out. The wife deserved to see that.
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I feel for both you and your GF. Your GF has significant trauma and abuse history and needs professional counseling to ever deal with it properly. I don't see how you two can work as a couple unless you both get help.
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Zooch never said she led the boss on - "to stay employed" . He said she led him on, and possibly slept with him, in order to " get a promotion". Huge difference.
Why would the boss tell her he was " getting a divorce" ? That has nothing to do with a promotion , {or keeping her job} and everything to do with trying to entice her into a 'serious' intimate relationship.
Nowhere does Zooch state that the boss said "bleep me or your fired" or " bleep me and you can have a raise". Lots of jumping to conclusions based on what's been written so far, perhaps by myself as well.
a] girlfriend accepts new position within company while dating Zooch
b] GF goes on out of town business trips with Boss, getting treated "like a servant". Boss dangles idea of car/ raise and tells GF he's getting divorced.
c] Zooch and GF break up for 1 month
d] GF sleeps with Boss within 29 days of breakup - maybe because she is willing to trade sex for future advancement, or is actually attracted to boss, or is horny for physical contact.
e] Zooch and GF get back together, presumably they are being sexually intimate, and GF neglects to tell Z she's been getting jiggy w/ Boss
f] Boss tries for more liasons w/ GF but she shuts him down, keeps her job, doesn't get demoted.
g] Eventually Zooch figures out the subterfuge, they have a serious discussion, instead of trying another position at the company, she quits.
Advice for Zooch. Stop taking GF's on cruises. It worked out badly with the last GF.
And now you cancelled a cruise you were going to take current GF on, because the fight/discussion happened.
Maybe you dangling the cruise to her , was not much different than Boss dangling the car...?
Sorry - both things are true.
She led him on after she ended things (when she got back with me/found out he was possibly lying about his divorce/told his wife he loved her on a call ON that trip) to keep the job/get more experience to get a better job/her "raise review" was 2 months away.
That guy is a serial cheater - according to his wife before marriage he was caught with a bunch of prositutes. He got fired and they had to move during covid as he cheated at a prior company. Etc etc.
You have to understand this is a small start up - literally like 4-5 people and 2 of them are the vp/ceo and both are on the board in Mexico. My gf has worked for the company they both did prior and executives would just take all the younger employees on trips/to store openings to do all the work and then party all night. This part culture was ingrained in her from a young age.
E] I asked had anything happened with your boss. Constant state of fights as he would tell her things like "don't come on this trip your bf will be a distraction" when being told I'd also be there training.
G] I found out the day before we were going on a cruise. Told her to get out. She had told me she had been with no one in our time apart - etc etc. We reconciled days later and have been trying to make it work.
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To start with, the woman you are talking about was groomed, exploited and abused by a predatory man. I wish there were some sort of app for teenage and college age girls "Predatory men and the methods they use to exploit you" which could help them steer clear of that sort of situation. Looking at things from her point of view I think the best thing would be to move on not only from that man but also from this unsatisfactory on/off relationship she has had with you which will forever be tied up with her unhappy experience of being exploited by that man. By all means be a friend to her, if that works for both of you.
Looking at things from your point of view, you have a long history of trying to hold on to relationships which are less than satisfactory and difficulty in finding your way through those relationships to the possibility of something more satisfactory. I think you need to internalise the concepts "clean break" and "not being the sort of dog that turns around and sniffs its own poo" (sorry if that's a bit graphic).
As for you "talking to other girls" while you were together for a year, I've got to admit I'm not up on current dating mores. I understand that there can be an initial period of not being exclusive in a budding relationship. I wouldn't have thought that should last for a year, though: at some point you need to decide either this is possibly going somewhere and should be exclusive or you decide it's not going anywhere and (depending on how you both feel) it should either end or turn into a "booty call" situation. Again, you seem to have put off making this decision and just let the whole situation drift on in an unsatisfactory manner. That's on you, but also partly on your girlfriend for not calling you out on it sooner - which makes me think that the two of you together are probably not a healthy dynamic, even if the poor woman didn't have the fallout from her abuser hanging over her.
And I agree with charis: talking to your ex's abuser's wife can have no good outcomes. I'm not sure why you did it but whatever your reason it wasn't a good one. Use this to learn where good boundaries (and good manners) in personal conduct are.
I absolutely agree. In my head I was physically and in person 100% exclusive but flirting with others on the side is emotionally cheating and It was not right at all for me to do. I don't know why I did looking back as it's just been a massive self sabatoge.
I called her because I wanted my GF to understand if she was being told the truth or not - and hopefully make a decision off that and who she trusts in the future. Also I wanted to know. Also fuck him - he's going to do it again and again.
We've been back together since november and have been as close/exclusive and it seems like it ebbs and flows from good times to screaming and crying and even talks about suicide and such - she's had a HARD life and it's just like - I feel love and responsibility and just so many things that I'm doing what I've always done - sacrifice whatever I can to make it work .
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I think the reason I've accepted the why of why she didn't tell me is it makes sense.
We would not have gotten back together - it's selfish but it makes sense.
The actual being backed into a corner when your self worth and everything with a career had been impressed upon you by your abusive family from a young age along with a warped view of sex as a whole is also not lost on me. I understand what a power dynamic is and I think that's what I hope the most for her - that she can have a voice in the future and put herself first. I've seen this pattern before where she won't tell people off - she'll just avoid it. Even at chili's the other weekend - she went in to get change and the dude was hassling her and she told me how uncomfortable it was and just - I'm not a female so I don't understand but I wish I could help her.
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You can’t save her. This is work she needs to do herself. As everyone else has pointed out, you have some work you need to do, too. Neither one of you has the capacity right now to be in a mature, mutually loving relationship. You have to fix what’s broken first.
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You are not responsible for her.
You are not responsible for her.
She has been dealt multiple shitty hands in life. Frankly, one of those was you. You emotionally cheated on someone who has low-self esteem and who is unable to set healthy boundaries about how she deserves to be treated. Staying with you just reenforces that pattern. As painful as it is for both of you, you being the one to set a firm line and say the relationship is 100% over, and to work to divest her from your life and vice versa (living together, working together) is a kindness to both of you. From there, it is on her to either work to get herself healthy and well, or not.
You are not responsible for her. By breaking up with her, you free her from what is very clearly an unhealthy relationship on multiple levels. Again, that is a kindness to her and gives her the blank slate she needs to get healthy. IF she chooses that. But that choice is hers to make, not yours, and not even yours to guide.
And you need to come clean to your therapist. I recommend printing this thread and reading your posts to the therapist.
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You are not responsible for her.
You are not responsible for her.
She has been dealt multiple shitty hands in life. Frankly, one of those was you. You emotionally cheated on someone who has low-self esteem and who is unable to set healthy boundaries about how she deserves to be treated. Staying with you just reenforces that pattern. As painful as it is for both of you, you being the one to set a firm line and say the relationship is 100% over, and to work to divest her from your life and vice versa (living together, working together) is a kindness to both of you. From there, it is on her to either work to get herself healthy and well, or not.
You are not responsible for her. By breaking up with her, you free her from what is very clearly an unhealthy relationship on multiple levels. Again, that is a kindness to her and gives her the blank slate she needs to get healthy. IF she chooses that. But that choice is hers to make, not yours, and not even yours to guide.
And you need to come clean to your therapist. I recommend printing this thread and reading your posts to the therapist.
It's crazy we've actually talked about this. I'm one of the people that has hurt her - and I've been trying to understand if that's even recoverable.
I agree we both need help - I'm just worried about her - for several reasons. She has a tendency to self destruct and mix that with a poor family relation/low self esteem self worth/hard financial situation etc .....she's also got some serious depression and repressed memories of being abused and although I speak openly about her going to a therapist- her other one was not helpful at all (was trying to tell her she could work the system to get perscriptions wtf).
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I admit that I didn't read everything from the updates, but I will say this:
When you are in a relationship that is actually good and has forever potential, you will NOT be on the Internet having angst about it.
If you are feeling stuck about breaking up with someone because you're worried about them, there is probably something helpful in the Captain Awkward archives.
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You have major boundaries issues with your GF. I understand why you wanted to called her boss's wife, but it's irrelevant. It's not your place to get involved like that, period. If your GF wanted to call the wife, she could have, and it's not something you should do if she doesn't want or care enough to.
You need help - separately and independently of your GF.
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You have major boundaries issues with your GF. I understand why you wanted to called her boss's wife, but it's irrelevant. It's not your place to get involved like that, period. If your GF wanted to call the wife, she could have, and it's not something you should do if she doesn't want or care enough to.
You need help - separately and independently of your GF.
Semantics aside - I did it. Whether or not I was in the right or wrong will forever be up for debate.
The wife did thank me and said friends for years have lied to her about his actions and she recorded the conversation/screenshots so she could use them as proof for friends/family/her children if potentially they did seperate and he tried to delete her evidence again.
I was upset - I was hurt - I thought we were done and I wanted him to be exposed for once in his shitty manipulative life - I can absolutely live with doing that.
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You have major boundaries issues with your GF. I understand why you wanted to called her boss's wife, but it's irrelevant. It's not your place to get involved like that, period. If your GF wanted to call the wife, she could have, and it's not something you should do if she doesn't want or care enough to.
You need help - separately and independently of your GF.
Semantics aside - I did it. Whether or not I was in the right or wrong will forever be up for debate.
The wife did thank me and said friends for years have lied to her about his actions and she recorded the conversation/screenshots so she could use them as proof for friends/family/her children if potentially they did seperate and he tried to delete her evidence again.
I was upset - I was hurt - I thought we were done and I wanted him to be exposed for once in his shitty manipulative life - I can absolutely live with doing that.
You are completely missing my point. It's not semantics. It's a huge giant flaming red flag for your boundary issues. It's like exhibit A in the proof of what you have so much drama in your life. A reasoned person would see this dumpster fire of a situation and run quickly in the opposite direction. You instead decided to dive into the dumpster. You need to unpack the reason for this with a professional.
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You have major boundaries issues with your GF. I understand why you wanted to called her boss's wife, but it's irrelevant. It's not your place to get involved like that, period. If your GF wanted to call the wife, she could have, and it's not something you should do if she doesn't want or care enough to.
You need help - separately and independently of your GF.
Semantics aside - I did it. Whether or not I was in the right or wrong will forever be up for debate.
The wife did thank me and said friends for years have lied to her about his actions and she recorded the conversation/screenshots so she could use them as proof for friends/family/her children if potentially they did seperate and he tried to delete her evidence again.
I was upset - I was hurt - I thought we were done and I wanted him to be exposed for once in his shitty manipulative life - I can absolutely live with doing that.
You are completely missing my point. It's not semantics. It's a huge giant flaming red flag for your boundary issues. It's like exhibit A in the proof of what you have so much drama in your life. A reasoned person would see this dumpster fire of a situation and run quickly in the opposite direction. You instead decided to dive into the dumpster. You need to unpack the reason for this with a professional.
The reason was I believed by exposing him - I could help her understand that this wasn't where she should stay/be in life. That's not healthy - but I guess people act a little crazy when they find out what they've been hiding under the repression for months is true. It's not on me to influence her life - but I guess I felt like it was considering we were together - I had been following her strict terms to try to rebuild trust for months (i.e cutting out my platonic ex formentioned in this thread completely - stopping going to my gyms etc) and I just felt like I was trying everything and that meant I had more sway in terms of everything. Healthy? Nope - rational? sorta? End of the day we're still trying to make it work day to day
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Did your GF know you were planning to expose him? Did she agree to it? Enthusiastically and without coercion on your part?
If the answer to any of those is 'no', then all you did was revictimize her and removed even more control in a situation that boils, in many ways, down to a painful lack of control. Her boss controlled her for his sexual and possibly power-seeking needs. She was not in control. Then, you did the exact same thing, if she didn't know and agree in advance.
You became just another man in her life whose own needs were more important than hers, and who didn't care if she was hurt in the process. You are another example of someone who basically used her for their own selfish reason--you wanted revenge on this guy, and you were hurt and were acting on your own pain. At best, you made assumptions about what was best for her, then acted without her consent (again, IF she didn't agree, which isn't clear from your posts so far). You stripped control from her in a situation where that was probably the worst thing you could do, or close to it.
You can frame it as "rational" and you can justify it all you want. But it is another way you hurt her. Another damage to an already ridiculously damaged relationship, another example of your horrible boundaries, and another reason the two of you need to part ways.
It took 20 pages for you to break up with the last girlfriend, with basically the entire forum telling you to. Are you going to repeat that pattern as well, just as you repeated so many of the other patterns from that relationship? And when you finally do end this, are you going to repeat the pattern of just jumping into another relationship before you sort yourself out?
If your therapist isn't helping you get better--if you aren't digging painfully deep and sharing the unvarnished truth with them--then you need a different one.
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You moved too fast into another unhealthy intimate relationship. You were living together at 3 months? That is too soon, especially for people like you (and sounds like your girlfriend) that are prone to attachment/codependence issues.
You have major boundary issues too. You discovered her texts ON HER PHONE. You called the wife to tell her that your GF and the boss slept together? Both are major boundary violations/enmeshment.
Also, even if you take nothing else from this post: you can not change or fix anyone other than YOU. You can't save/repair/rescue/teach someone else how to be happy/healthy. The only person you can work on is yourself. What you've posted are classic signs of enmeshed/codependent behavior. And it's also sort of a block to you really digging into your own issues with attachment/relationships/need to feel needed/loved and gets all tangled up.
You need to work through your personal relationship/attachment issues and let your GF go to work on herself and separate without any aim to fix your relationship. Especially do not do this with the goal of fixing yourselves to stay together - your main/only goal should be heal and fix yourself. My own counselors told me: you may not end up desiring your current partner/type once you start getting healthy. I personally think you need to rein way back on entering any sort of a serious relationship until you get that stuff nailed down. (maybe check out the book "Codependent No More" for some ideas of what you're dealing with to discuss with a therapist?)
I am saying all of this without any judgement/criticism; just great sadness and sympathy for what you're likely feeling. Even a person that has trust issues due to whatever abuse/past/cheating... you can't go forward in a shared, stable relationship without trust in THEM.
Past trauma - and believe me, I have great empathy for people that have been through awful things - is not a "get out of jail free card" to keep acting poorly or making bad/impulsive/hurtful decisions. It's a reason why people do things that sometimes make no sense, but to continue to react in this manner is to let the in-pain/stunted/victim persona drive the car. You have to take responsibility for the hurt/trauma effects, and work on healing and growing past them. Some people never do, and those are the ones that keep hurting themselves and others and having difficulties all through their lives and never find real happiness and peace because they are stuck with that victim mentality in control.
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Do you have any examples of healthy relationships in your life? Reading through this makes me think you don’t. Good relationships don’t look anything like this. Not even a little bit. I can appreciate it is hard to find a create a healthy relationship when you don’t have a model to follow, which means you need to step back and not get into any relationship until you can do the work of identifying where your models went wrong and get new, healthy sources to learn from.
This is not good for you. She isn’t good for you. You can’t fix this currently because you aren’t healthy yourself. Please, please let her go and focus on yourself.
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Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts
Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that). With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent. Maybe she would have done it anyway. But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed.
So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him. Whatevs.
I never condoned any of the bosses predatory actions. And the aspersions you say i cast towards GF --were to point out to Zooch that she was making a conscious decision to engage in a sexual relationship with the Boss. Not simply that she was browbeaten and humiliated and taken advantage of so much, that she decided to acquiesce and give in to his whims, regardless of the revulsion she should have felt.
Zooches responses to mine and other posts - helps confirm my suspicions. Example *" When we broke up officially right around her birthday is when he first moved in on her - basically he sent her a bday dinner or whatever and it turned flirty from there. She thought we weren't getting back together and of course Her Friends Were Like Live Your Best Life." This is her thought pattern after being warned by Zooch and other acquaintances that Boss was bad news !
If you want to be mad at an employer for bad behavior , { in addition to this 5 person company w/start-up CEO/ Boss} , you may as well include , if i recall correctly , where you receive most of your families' employment income. The US Military / Dept ofDefense . Which has a Dismal record of repression, rejection, and harassment, both discriminatory and sexual -- toward minorities, women, homosexuals, and others over the past 100 years.
If you'd like we can start another thread in off-topic, and i'll get it off to a bang with some great examples. Your husband probably gets a lot training about sexual harrassment [ mainly hetero ] from his job in the last few years being that it's finally out in the open in the military.
Zooch - please point out to your GF that "success" does not have to include working for speculative " high dollar reward" companies. For the 70 hour weeks she was working for $40K - she could have worked 40 hour weeks at $19 an hour ! Our local grocery store is a large chain that pays $21/ hr to stock shelves at night. They underwrite health insurance for employees also, and because they are a large company with shareholders, they have to have proactive policies that should stifle sexual harrassment. She could be in management there at $30/hr within a few years, with predictability and security in her job...
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Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts
Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that). With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent. Maybe she would have done it anyway. But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed.
So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him. Whatevs.
I never condoned any of the bosses predatory actions. And the aspersions you say i cast towards GF --were to point out to Zooch that she was making a conscious decision to engage in a sexual relationship with the Boss. Not simply that she was browbeaten and humiliated and taken advantage of so much, that she decided to acquiesce and give in to his whims, regardless of the revulsion she should have felt.
Zooches responses to mine and other posts - helps confirm my suspicions. Example *" When we broke up officially right around her birthday is when he first moved in on her - basically he sent her a bday dinner or whatever and it turned flirty from there. She thought we weren't getting back together and of course Her Friends Were Like Live Your Best Life." This is her thought pattern after being warned by Zooch and other acquaintances that Boss was bad news !
If you want to be mad at an employer for bad behavior , { in addition to this 5 person company w/start-up CEO/ Boss} , you may as well include , if i recall correctly , where you receive most of your families' employment income. The US Military / Dept ofDefense . Which has a Dismal record of repression, rejection, and harassment, both discriminatory and sexual -- toward minorities, women, homosexuals, and others over the past 100 years.
If you'd like we can start another thread in off-topic, and i'll get it off to a bang with some great examples. Your husband probably gets a lot training about sexual harrassment [ mainly hetero ] from his job in the last few years being that it's finally out in the open in the military.
Zooch - please point out to your GF that "success" does not have to include working for speculative " high dollar reward" companies. For the 70 hour weeks she was working for $40K - she could have worked 40 hour weeks at $19 an hour ! Our local grocery store is a large chain that pays $21/ hr to stock shelves at night. They underwrite health insurance for employees also, and because they are a large company with shareholders, they have to have proactive policies that should stifle sexual harrassment. She could be in management there at $30/hr within a few years, with predictability and security in her job...
How does the military's record on these issue have any relevance to the boss being totally inappropriate, and you basically castigating the woman who was victimized? Even the military would fire someone--quickly--if it was found the hit on or slept with someone junior to them. Because that's predatory behavior. The military being bad at this issue has fuck-all to do with you insulting this woman who was victimized by her boss. You refuse to acknowledge that this wasn't a choice she made freely, rather than one she made in fear of her job. You say she was probably "horny", "willing to trade sex for promotion" or is "attracted to boss", When he himself said she was trying to keep her job. (You still have acknowledged that you were flat out incorrect when you said he never said that. Maybe because it doesn't fit your narrative of her being a horny woman willing to trade sexual favors for promotion?) You paint an horrible, insulting picture of her, when she was preyed upon by her boss.
It;s gross. And a deflection about how the military handles these issues is entirely irrelevant. You are the one treating the victim terrible. If the military powers that be spoke about a victim of sexual harassment like you spoke about this woman, there would be a crazy amount of outcry, and rightfully so. Because it is gross, and totally misses the way power imbalance plays into sexual harassment.
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You moved too fast into another unhealthy intimate relationship. You were living together at 3 months? That is too soon, especially for people like you (and sounds like your girlfriend) that are prone to attachment/codependence issues.
You have major boundary issues too. You discovered her texts ON HER PHONE. You called the wife to tell her that your GF and the boss slept together? Both are major boundary violations/enmeshment.
This.
zooch, I think you want to see yourself as the best thing that ever happened to your GF. Her knight in shining armor. You haven't physically abused her or cheated on her, etc. You want the best for her. And you might, in fact, be the best thing that ever happened to her.
But, the bar has to be set higher. In a healthy relationship, people aren't snooping on each other OR hiding big things from each other. My suggestion would be that you disentangle your lives... make the moves to stop living together. Start working on yourselves.
Even if you care for a woman and hope that she thrives, you don't have to share your life with her. If you're concerned she has suffered financially because she quit her old job, and feel that it was somehow your fault, you can do something to help her to be financially independent as she leaves (move out but pay half her rent for a couple of months, etc.) But you don't have to take responsibility for her or fix her. Only she can do that. It will just hurt the both of you to cling.
Here's a great website that I usually recommend... has lots of practical advice for married people to stay married, but there is also some good advice in choosing a partner:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/choosing-the-right-one-to-marry-2.htm
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I agree with Charis and .Frankie’s Girl:
Too much drama in your relationships, .zooch…you move too fast without real knowledge and intimacy into these situations.
I don’t see any point in commenting further on more of your romantic trials and tribulations. Start your next dating relationship with DATING. For a year or two. That doesn’t mean moving in together. That doesn’t mean exclusivity, especially in the first few months.
I mean just have some dates. Have some fun. Get to know a girl or several girls. That’s not cheating. That’s just reasonable casual dating and not putting all your eggs in one basket.
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Did your GF know you were planning to expose him? Did she agree to it? Enthusiastically and without coercion on your part?
If the answer to any of those is 'no', then all you did was revictimize her and removed even more control in a situation that boils, in many ways, down to a painful lack of control. Her boss controlled her for his sexual and possibly power-seeking needs. She was not in control. Then, you did the exact same thing, if she didn't know and agree in advance.
You became just another man in her life whose own needs were more important than hers, and who didn't care if she was hurt in the process. You are another example of someone who basically used her for their own selfish reason--you wanted revenge on this guy, and you were hurt and were acting on your own pain. At best, you made assumptions about what was best for her, then acted without her consent (again, IF she didn't agree, which isn't clear from your posts so far). You stripped control from her in a situation where that was probably the worst thing you could do, or close to it.
You can frame it as "rational" and you can justify it all you want. But it is another way you hurt her. Another damage to an already ridiculously damaged relationship, another example of your horrible boundaries, and another reason the two of you need to part ways.
It took 20 pages for you to break up with the last girlfriend, with basically the entire forum telling you to. Are you going to repeat that pattern as well, just as you repeated so many of the other patterns from that relationship? And when you finally do end this, are you going to repeat the pattern of just jumping into another relationship before you sort yourself out?
If your therapist isn't helping you get better--if you aren't digging painfully deep and sharing the unvarnished truth with them--then you need a different one.
She absolutely knew I was going to - she wanted me to wait/was under the impression it would tarnish her reputation amongst other employers (I guess he had threatened she had to lie and he was going to sue me for slander and whatever the hell else when I texted him saying he could come clean to his wife or I would). Me assuming what was in her best interest may not have been merit for the action but I can live with her understanding how people can be - even if it's to our own relational detriment. I just knew without actually knowing the true story and such I - well I wanted that for closure and to see if we could move on or whatnot from it. I understand much better the predicament she was in and the lies and bs she was fed by a predatory sociopath and I guess that's what it boiled down to.
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Let me preface this a bit with saying I appreciate any and every response-
1) I'm aware I have some kind of massive attachment/entanglement issues. I don't know if I fear being alone - I care deeply about my partners well being and in both this and my prior relationship -> I've almost felt an obligation to be there for them no matter what. I still care about my prior ex probably too much.
2) I'm aware of how big an impact this is having on my life. I have cut out even close friends and live my life around our schedule/planning/whatever as well as building this business with her and pretty much anything from athletics to other things I enjoy have just taken a backseat. I'm currently uneasy and thinking of this or that in regards to the issues between us. Just last night she saw a picture in a group chat with the dog rescue and asked who else I sent that too as she hadn't seen it. She assumed I had sent it to other people and was upset - even going back to when i had sent my ex some gifts over a year ago for her birthday and talking about how she could never fit that standard. That made me want to last out and say how I felt about seeing pictures of her when I knew she was talking to boss/5 other individuals whilst we were apart - which I refrained from as it's just going in circles voicing both of our hurt.
3) we have lived together since november - not because she doesn't have her own place but because we don't have the healthy trust to spend apart - crazy huh? Even talking about going to the gym she wants to come with me as she suspects i've had a relationship with some/any of the girls in there. She has not gotten over things I've done to hurt her previously and has said the only way to do that is to go with me and involve herself.
4) This is hard. We don't fight or argue it's more just statements of hurt at this point but i feel like we're both still uneasy and quick to let our emotions and thoughts run wild. At the same time we assure eachother we love one another and she's even planned a trip late may for my birthday/we spend most free time together. It's just like there's a cloud of unease and it's so hard to stay positive and happy. She's also had suicidal rate depression and such which has surfaced twice - once when I first found out and later during another argument.
5) This is not sustainable. I understand this is so controlling of my life and I just wish there was a path we could forgo all the other feelings and hurt and such that have gone back and forth. I hate the fact that I started this and fell into this and then didn't treat it correctly. I need for sure to work on myself but I'm so worried about her and herself and it's just crazy to say.
6)Our lives are entertwined in ways that makes it harder - we work together weekends at the startup. Her animals/she has moved stuff to my apartment. We have plans every weekend going forward and try to ingrain everything. My emotions also make it hard to understand dating/imagine it/trying to view myself as an individual if I ever make a decision to seperate and stick to it. Every time prior it's been being apart "hoping to be better for eachother in the future". I just don't have this ability at 29 to be able to cut people out and I have this caring or whatever complex and it's a lot.
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Zooch, this is not a healthy relationship for either of you. It is certainly not love, and it is no way for either of you to live. There are a lot of red flags in this woman's behaviour to you. I know that you see her as someone who has been hurt in life and are unwilling to hurt her yourself by ending the relationship between you. But it is not uncommon for someone who is emotionally and psychologically damaged to apply the behaviours they have been on the receiving end of to other people, and I fear that this is what is happening to you.
If I heard of a woman whose partner had cut her off from her friends, her sports and her hobbies, who checks her phone messages and wants to know who she is messaging, who has moved into her home with her belongings and pets despite having their own place because they don't trust her behaviour if they are not with her every minute, who won't let her go to the gym on her own, I would be saying "This is coersive control. This person is isolating her from friends and family. They are monitoring her time. They are monitoring her electronic communications. They are controlling what she does with her time, where she goes, who she sees, what she does. Those are all aspects of coersive control." And in fact it is no different because you are a man and it is a woman practising these coersive control techniques on you. Let me blunt: this woman is abusive towards you, and she is using all the bad things that have happened to her to emotionally manipulate you into submitting to that coersive control.
Letting this carry on any longer is doing neither of you a service. In particular, by letting this woman think that her coersive control techniques will get her want she wants you are not only enabling her bad behaviour but actively preventing her from learning how to be an independent adult in a healthy relationship. Putting an end to this situation, and encouraging her to get therapy/mental health treatment is the best possible thing you can do for her.
You need to cut her out of your life. She, her pets and her belongings need to get out of your home and back to her own place. The startup either needs to do without one or other of you or schedule you to work at different times. You need to stop meeting her, or answering the phone to her, or having any other communication with her. You need to stop telling her the lie that you love her, you clearly don't and there is no reason why you should.
It is possible that she will threaten suicide if you end the relationship, either directly saying so or just implying it. That would be a despicable form of emotional blackmail and you need to stand up to it. She is an adult human being who is responsible for her own life and it would be entirely wrong of her to try to take your life hostage to her threats. And any such threat would of course be further evidence that you are being subjected to her coersive control.
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100% agree with ^^. These are massive red flags and you need to get out of this, yesterday.
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Usually a clean break is the kindest thing you can do for the other person.
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Let me preface this a bit with saying I appreciate any and every response-
1) I'm aware I have some kind of massive attachment/entanglement issues. I don't know if I fear being alone - I care deeply about my partners well being and in both this and my prior relationship -> I've almost felt an obligation to be there for them no matter what. I still care about my prior ex probably too much.
2) I'm aware of how big an impact this is having on my life. I have cut out even close friends and live my life around our schedule/planning/whatever as well as building this business with her and pretty much anything from athletics to other things I enjoy have just taken a backseat. I'm currently uneasy and thinking of this or that in regards to the issues between us. Just last night she saw a picture in a group chat with the dog rescue and asked who else I sent that too as she hadn't seen it. She assumed I had sent it to other people and was upset - even going back to when i had sent my ex some gifts over a year ago for her birthday and talking about how she could never fit that standard. That made me want to last out and say how I felt about seeing pictures of her when I knew she was talking to boss/5 other individuals whilst we were apart - which I refrained from as it's just going in circles voicing both of our hurt.
3) we have lived together since november - not because she doesn't have her own place but because we don't have the healthy trust to spend apart - crazy huh? Even talking about going to the gym she wants to come with me as she suspects i've had a relationship with some/any of the girls in there. She has not gotten over things I've done to hurt her previously and has said the only way to do that is to go with me and involve herself.
4) This is hard. We don't fight or argue it's more just statements of hurt at this point but i feel like we're both still uneasy and quick to let our emotions and thoughts run wild. At the same time we assure eachother we love one another and she's even planned a trip late may for my birthday/we spend most free time together. It's just like there's a cloud of unease and it's so hard to stay positive and happy. She's also had suicidal rate depression and such which has surfaced twice - once when I first found out and later during another argument.
5) This is not sustainable. I understand this is so controlling of my life and I just wish there was a path we could forgo all the other feelings and hurt and such that have gone back and forth. I hate the fact that I started this and fell into this and then didn't treat it correctly. I need for sure to work on myself but I'm so worried about her and herself and it's just crazy to say.
6)Our lives are entertwined in ways that makes it harder - we work together weekends at the startup. Her animals/she has moved stuff to my apartment. We have plans every weekend going forward and try to ingrain everything. My emotions also make it hard to understand dating/imagine it/trying to view myself as an individual if I ever make a decision to seperate and stick to it. Every time prior it's been being apart "hoping to be better for eachother in the future". I just don't have this ability at 29 to be able to cut people out and I have this caring or whatever complex and it's a lot.
^ Great insight above!
Get counseling, regardless of all other decisions you make. You need to invest in solutions and that's the one that guaranteed to be necessary. "It" really IS a lot; you need support for a while that is professional.
Just start finding a counselor, scheduling appointments, and going.
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I'm off to the therapist per usual this week (well after a month or 2 off - hah)
I know this isn't healthy but I've also shown clean breaks are extremely difficult for whatever reasons - in this case I'm trying to work out the rational/decision I actually control/am at peace with. The more we talk about past situations the more I realize the type of person she is and things she's experienced and it makes me feel a lot of different ways.
Past that I've been going back to the gym starting today - That is absolutlely something I need in my life - and she has a new job where it's not remote so we have our own time during the day etc. I've also managed to focus on work for once and will hopefully make some headway in my main and side company this week.
Thanks all for being kind in the responses and hope ya'll are having a great kick off to the week
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I'm off to the therapist per usual this week (well after a month or 2 off - hah)
I know this isn't healthy but I've also shown clean breaks are extremely difficult for whatever reasons - in this case I'm trying to work out the rational/decision I actually control/am at peace with. The more we talk about past situations the more I realize the type of person she is and things she's experienced and it makes me feel a lot of different ways.
Past that I've been going back to the gym starting today - That is absolutlely something I need in my life - and she has a new job where it's not remote so we have our own time during the day etc. I've also managed to focus on work for once and will hopefully make some headway in my main and side company this week.
Thanks all for being kind in the responses and hope ya'll are having a great kick off to the week
Yes, clean breaks are difficult. And the current shit-show situation (and the last shit-show situation) weren't difficult? Of course they were. You are just prolonging the agony, pawning it off--with interest--on next-month Zooch, rather than today Zooch. And on next-month [Ex]girlfriend, instead of today [Ex]girlfriend.
No option is without difficulty. But prolonging it actually makes it more difficult, for longer. It just feels more appealing because it is death by a million cuts, and you are only looking at the first few cuts so it seems better than one awful gut punch... and then it is over.
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So we've had some more intensive discussions and here's what it boils down to
1. She doesn't trust me - I hurt her in the past. I don't entirely trust her. We both understand this at this point.
2. She's struggling - she's taken a job but it's only giving 25-30 hours a week. She mentions frequently her fears of never having a good job/being back to square one. In her mind that job was her only way to get experience and find a better paying job. I've tried to explain to her that it was not a actual PM position (desipite the title) and that being in that position (40k for 70 hour weeks) is very obtainable. Currently we are discussing routes as I want to help her find a job so that won't be such a determinate factor stressor.
3. I understand this isn't sustainable but she literally has nothing - I want to at least help her find a job or some income sources that don't just leave her homeless or jumping around to random places to stay fed/warm. It's insane but I feel slightly at fault - she left the job partly because of me - etc.
Hope ya'll are doing well
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Don't beat yourself up about her job. $40k annually at 70hrs per week is $11/hr. That's a shitty, dime a dozen job even if we ignore the sexual predator elephant in the room. That's low in the current market, even for fast food. Set the bar higher. With something closer to $20/hr, she could make the same money in just 40hrs per week.
Around here (LCOL Midwest), basic retail jobs start at nearly that much. Warehouses and manufacturing jobs can eclipse $20/hr, and some are offering signing bonuses too. These are jobs that require little more than passing a drug test and showing up. Amazon's benefits start on day 1. If she's not willing to do that kind of work to avoid becoming homeless then that's an issue for her to deal with.
I applaud you for wanting to get her into a bit more stable position, but it shouldn't be difficult or take very long in the current environment.
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Don't beat yourself up about her job. $40k annually at 70hrs per week is $11/hr. That's a shitty, dime a dozen job even if we ignore the sexual predator elephant in the room. That's low in the current market, even for fast food. Set the bar higher. With something closer to $20/hr, she could make the same money in just 40hrs per week.
Around here (LCOL Midwest), basic retail jobs start at nearly that much. Warehouses and manufacturing jobs can eclipse $20/hr, and some are offering signing bonuses too. These are jobs that require little more than passing a drug test and showing up. Amazon's benefits start on day 1. If she's not willing to do that kind of work to avoid becoming homeless then that's an issue for her to deal with.
I applaud you for wanting to get her into a bit more stable position, but it shouldn't be difficult or take very long in the current environment.
she's more than willing to work it's just - she hasn't had a corporate job or connections or experience - hence why all this bs happened in regards to her holding out to her past job - she held onto that as a lifeline as she hasn't seen nor experienced that amount of pay - just hourly temps or with less hours. This other job worked the shit out of her and she can't understand that is more than obtainable without her staying there for more "experience" on her resume in marketing/direct to consumer/marketing - I'm just looking for positions she should apply for
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1. She doesn't trust me - I hurt her in the past. I don't entirely trust her. We both understand this at this point.
You don't trust each other and are operating as if you're both trying to control each other. Without a foundation of love and TRUST, you don't have a chance in hell of having a real and healthy relationship. You are may care about each other, but neither of you are in a place to be WITH each other... and honestly I'd gently suggest neither of you have done enough inward growth/examination/healing to be in any sort of an intimate relationship.
2. She's struggling - she's taken a job but it's only giving 25-30 hours a week. She mentions frequently her fears of never having a good job/being back to square one. In her mind that job was her only way to get experience and find a better paying job. I've tried to explain to her that it was not a actual PM position (desipite the title) and that being in that position (40k for 70 hour weeks) is very obtainable. Currently we are discussing routes as I want to help her find a job so that won't be such a determinate factor stressor.
She's an adult. She should work on finding herself a job and other resources to support herself, not expect or allow you to step in to direct her life.
3. I understand this isn't sustainable but she literally has nothing - I want to at least help her find a job or some income sources that don't just leave her homeless or jumping around to random places to stay fed/warm. It's insane but I feel slightly at fault - she left the job partly because of me - etc.
She does have many things. She's a fully functional, basically intelligent adult that managed to make it to her 20s without your help or assistance. Until she met you, she was coping for the most part, and she will figure things out again if you allow her to. She may make more mistakes but those are hers to make and you are not her parent and not responsible for her. This isn't sustainable but you need to understand that YOUR need to feel beholding and caretaker for others is also damaging to both you and her (and any other partner you may hook up with in the future).
I know you feel responsible but this is another sign of your codependent training. Savior complex, caretaker, feeling responsible and trying to care for an otherwise outwardly appearing adult is a sign that you're too enmeshed with their issues. I reiterate the suggestion to check out the book "Codependent No More" (there's even an audio version) and do some thinking and discussion with your therapist.
Please don't think I'm trying to be harsh or judgemental towards you. I am absolutely coming from a point of view of "been there, done that" and just hope to help you sooner rather than later. I figured some of this out MUCH later in life and if anything I can say can help point the way towards better relationship/mental health, I'd be over the moon happy for you.
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The short version of these posts is that your "help" is not helping her. It's preventing her from helping herself. There are ways to be supportive in which you are not in an enabling relationship. The essence of your post is that you are treating her like your child.
I know this from watching it with my parents and my adult sibling, who is likely forever hobbled by my parents help. My sibling (late 30s) may never be fully independent because my parents are always there to subsidize the rent, or provide a room, help with car payments, or student loans, buy the groceries, pay the cell phone bill etc etc. It's never going to accomplish what they hope
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Ok, you want to help her. Here's a way to do it.
1. Give her the askamanager.org website. That will help her with her resume and cover letter, interviews, etc.
2. Tell her that she can live with you, as platonic roommates, for $x a month (not free!) for 3 months, after which she has to move out. Put this in writing please. You can get rental agreements online.
3. Leave her the heck alone. You are now platonic roommates.
This gives her some breathing space to get her life together. It's perfectly fair and generous. It helps get you and her disentangled emotionally and practically. What she does with her life is up to her. It is NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILTY what happens to her. You are responsibility is for yourself.
And please stay out of any more relationships until you've worked through your issues in therapy. It's not fair to anyone.
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This is another repeat of the old pattern. You seem like a caring person, but this can veer into a kind of paternalism where you feel like you are responsible for a girlfriend's money/housing/comfort even when the relationship is in shambles and you'd otherwise part ways.
I agree that would be nice to give her a few months to pull herself together job-wise considering all she has been through. But do you think it is possible to break up and still live together? To me this would be really hard, whether in your shoes or hers.
Where I am located, EVERYWHERE is hiring, and what used to be low-paid jobs have increased wages to well above the $11/hour she was making at her office job. I'd guess it is similar where you are. She can do this. She can be independent and find a new path.
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I would guess that one issue that OP is facing is that his girlfriend has such low self esteem that any attempt to separate himself or pull away, upsets her... not because she especially loves him or because they are such a great fit, but because the perceived rejection is painful.
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I would guess that one issue that OP is facing is that his girlfriend has such low self esteem that any attempt to separate himself or pull away, upsets her... not because she especially loves him or because they are such a great fit, but because the perceived rejection is painful.
That is a theme, right? Something OP needs to work through in therapy, why he finds himself enmeshed with women who have such self esteem issues.
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Wow what a ride.
So as of today - we're still together. Somehow - although the latest crux is she wants to move in together in 2 months (both our leases end) and I'm not willing to do that right now. We are not in a good place individually or together and she takes that very personally.
What's happened since I last posted?
I've been consumed by the hurt from what I found out. We have argued and yelled and I have definitely said many many hurtful repetitive things. She has finally taken the stance that she won't stand for that and I have to get over it. I had sent out emails to the ex bosses contacts and board. I'm done with all that - more minor details have changed and I've told her I don't trust her side of what happened. I have come to try to let it be but it's hard.
She told me about someone she slept with last may when we were apart. Sucked to hear but at least she told me.
I told her about someone I had slept with whilst we were apart during October. I broke it off when we got back together and there was nothing there. Unfortunately she perceived it as I had to have been seeing this person for 6 months back to when I was talking to people. I had not - it was a mistake - the girl moved after I broke it off she was so upset. The current gf lashed out at everyone in the gym community in private messgaes asking if they had known about us and forbid me to go back ever. I had a lot of friends and such there. I haven't been back and have been trying to find a new one she agrees with - but she's always concerned i'll interact with females at these locations and insists on going with me. She also dm'd the girl and told her a lot of awful things - how she was a mistake - etc etc.
She tells me I have to get over this obsession - that she has gotten over what I have done and we can't move on until I do.
I have communicated to her that she has not gotten over anything and constantly tells me things if we are apart during the day that ellude to me cheating. She will ask me what girl was over if something was moved from the sink. She will ask me who I'm texting and why I'm changing my apps quickly when I'm using my phone around her. She tells me she trusts me but then goes and says she has to live with me because it helps her trust me better - as in she knows I'm not out at night - and she has things here so no other girls are here.
At this point I've hired us a couples therapist as well as my own. The fights/my anger was too much and has led to a lot of lost time/productivity/sleep and resentment. The couples therapist has seen us together and on our own and has basically said neither of us is giving ground (me especially).
I told her we should not move in together right now. The therapist agreed this is a healthy boundary to set. She has taken that personally and gone through a range of things such as:
- I am regressing the relationship to how it was when we first started seeing eachother (it was only nights as I worked/was always training late), during that time period she felt like she had to force me to get my time and it turned out I wasn't respectful to her and committed
-Asking me what would change from our current living situation if we were to move in - mentioning this would show commitment to her in ways vs trying to "get away from her"
-She has also said if she gets her own place she would want to be single due to the amount of time it would take to travel between/with our animals/keep both clean/and the financial burdan wouldn't make sense if we were with eachother all the time
-She is interviewing for a new remote job next week and has said if we aren't moving in together - she will move up north with her family and long distance we could try but she doesn't think would work as she needs to be close to someone. She has wanted to live with them but finanancially and such it makes sense over getting her own place here to try to work on things.
On the plus side - we are communicating now more than ever. I can not live with her right now unless these dynamics change and are healthier. We are both holding onto way too much and it affects every part of our lives - whether we're both aware of what we're doing or not. We are going to a wedding this weekend and I'm hopeful to just have a relaxing weekend at my parents/a nice trip together and to speak more on these things when we get back monday.
Also - she has a new job - paying more and working normal 8-5 hours daily now. I'm so happy for her to have this and be able to see she didn't have to deal with that shit to be treated like a person.
Hope you all are doing well - sorry for this. I honestly don't know what I want to do/live whatever if we are not together and the codependency is very apparant. I just wanted to journal this down as this is the longest record I have of everything.
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the codependency is very apparant
Shew. I think you probably know, and have known for a long time, what you need to do. (End it, and for good.) But only you can make that happen.
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Have you heard the expression "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose?" French for "The more things change, the more they stay the same." I think this applies here. You're going around in circles and not getting anywhere.
Let her go, stay single for a good long while, until you work out your issues. You're in no way psychologically healthy enough to be in a relationship.
Do it while you're still young enough to make a stable, happy life for yourself. You don't want to be still doing this drama when you're 50.
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Oh, my god. She's awful. This is all awful.
I'm very glad you have set the boundary not to move in with her. She is manipulative and controlling and frankly abusive. I cannot imagine being in a relationship with a person like that.
You have to end this. You really, really do.
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I know that popular culture on abuse is almost always about men abusing women but it also happens the other way around. You might want to look up definitions of "coersive control", because to my mind that is exactly what this woman is doing to you.
And if that's not enough, you need to be aware that this is not only about you, it's about your relationship turning this woman into someone who is hurting herself as well as you, in ways that are past repairing and will only start to heal after the relationship ends.
I hope you find the resolve to end the relationship, once and for all and as soon as possible.
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Wow what a ride.
So as of today - we're still together. Somehow - although the latest crux is she wants to move in together in 2 months (both our leases end) and I'm not willing to do that right now. We are not in a good place individually or together and she takes that very personally.
What's happened since I last posted?
I've been consumed by the hurt from what I found out. We have argued and yelled and I have definitely said many many hurtful repetitive things. She has finally taken the stance that she won't stand for that and I have to get over it. I had sent out emails to the ex bosses contacts and board. I'm done with all that - more minor details have changed and I've told her I don't trust her side of what happened. I have come to try to let it be but it's hard.
She told me about someone she slept with last may when we were apart. Sucked to hear but at least she told me.
I told her about someone I had slept with whilst we were apart during October. I broke it off when we got back together and there was nothing there. Unfortunately she perceived it as I had to have been seeing this person for 6 months back to when I was talking to people. I had not - it was a mistake - the girl moved after I broke it off she was so upset. The current gf lashed out at everyone in the gym community in private messgaes asking if they had known about us and forbid me to go back ever. I had a lot of friends and such there. I haven't been back and have been trying to find a new one she agrees with - but she's always concerned i'll interact with females at these locations and insists on going with me. She also dm'd the girl and told her a lot of awful things - how she was a mistake - etc etc.
She tells me I have to get over this obsession - that she has gotten over what I have done and we can't move on until I do.
I have communicated to her that she has not gotten over anything and constantly tells me things if we are apart during the day that ellude to me cheating. She will ask me what girl was over if something was moved from the sink. She will ask me who I'm texting and why I'm changing my apps quickly when I'm using my phone around her. She tells me she trusts me but then goes and says she has to live with me because it helps her trust me better - as in she knows I'm not out at night - and she has things here so no other girls are here.
At this point I've hired us a couples therapist as well as my own. The fights/my anger was too much and has led to a lot of lost time/productivity/sleep and resentment. The couples therapist has seen us together and on our own and has basically said neither of us is giving ground (me especially).
I told her we should not move in together right now. The therapist agreed this is a healthy boundary to set. She has taken that personally and gone through a range of things such as:
- I am regressing the relationship to how it was when we first started seeing eachother (it was only nights as I worked/was always training late), during that time period she felt like she had to force me to get my time and it turned out I wasn't respectful to her and committed
-Asking me what would change from our current living situation if we were to move in - mentioning this would show commitment to her in ways vs trying to "get away from her"
-She has also said if she gets her own place she would want to be single due to the amount of time it would take to travel between/with our animals/keep both clean/and the financial burdan wouldn't make sense if we were with eachother all the time
-She is interviewing for a new remote job next week and has said if we aren't moving in together - she will move up north with her family and long distance we could try but she doesn't think would work as she needs to be close to someone. She has wanted to live with them but finanancially and such it makes sense over getting her own place here to try to work on things.
On the plus side - we are communicating now more than ever. I can not live with her right now unless these dynamics change and are healthier. We are both holding onto way too much and it affects every part of our lives - whether we're both aware of what we're doing or not. We are going to a wedding this weekend and I'm hopeful to just have a relaxing weekend at my parents/a nice trip together and to speak more on these things when we get back monday.
Also - she has a new job - paying more and working normal 8-5 hours daily now. I'm so happy for her to have this and be able to see she didn't have to deal with that shit to be treated like a person.
Hope you all are doing well - sorry for this. I honestly don't know what I want to do/live whatever if we are not together and the codependency is very apparant. I just wanted to journal this down as this is the longest record I have of everything.
So you are continuing a relationship with someone who doesn't care enough about being with your that she's willing to drive? Seriously? Think about that. You mean so little to her that some minor inconvenience isn't worth it?
Tell her you thought about what she said about being single if she gets her own place, you agree with it, and it is time to end things.
Also, you are in the same place you were months ago with her. And the same place you were years ago with the previous relationship. You keep doing this to yourself. Cancel the couples' counseling, break up with her, and double up on your own counseling.
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Glad that you're keeping a record!
+1 on the personal counseling. Best wishes on attaining peaceful independence.
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When you have a group as diverse as this one in terms of of age, background, family situation, and we’re all saying exactly the same thing, take it seriously. End this relationship and DO NOT START ANOTHER ONE UNTIL YOU FIGURE OUT WHY YOU KEEP DOING THIS.
If I had to guess, it’s that you have some kind of “white knight” instinct. You want to rescue the troubled girl. The thing is, real life does not work like that. You can’t “fix” another person. I was having this discussion the other day with a friend who has had trouble finding true love. And you can’t have that until your criteria are right.
Here are mine:
1) Does this person want a strong, independent partner?
2) Can they be one themselves?
3) Do I like the person I am when I am with them?
4) Are they capable of enduring love?
5) Are their basic attitudes (including towards money) compatible with mine?
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Why are you with this person?
Are you constantly having explosive make up sex? That's the only thing I can imagine keeping you in the hell that is this relationship. I don't want to accuse you of being a troll but it feels like we are being trolled at this point.
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Wow what a ride. …
So you are continuing a relationship with someone who doesn't care enough about being with your that she's willing to drive? Seriously? Think about that. You mean so little to her that some minor inconvenience isn't worth it?
Tell her you thought about what she said about being single if she gets her own place, you agree with it, and it is time to end things.
Also, you are in the same place you were months ago with her. And the same place you were years ago…
I interpreted her words to mean she doesn’t want a long distance relationship. I assume that per moving “up north “means away, hundreds of miles. Maybe not.
But that doesn’t matter I agree with everything else you said. This guy needs to end this relationship, and most importantly as people pointed out, not jump into another one.
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This whole relationship is warped. Nightmare layered over nightmare.
Please just end things! It sounds like pure emotional torture at this point.
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I hope the next update is this thread is that our dear OP is single and committed to staying that way for a good long while.
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I hope the next update is this thread is that our dear OP is single and committed to staying that way for a good long while.
I think most of us hope that every time he posts a new update.
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"I honestly don't know what I want to do/live whatever if we are not together and the codependency is very apparant. "
If you really mean you don't know what you would want for yourself/your life without this person, that's a sign that you are not in a healthy place. It's an important part of being a healthy adult, and being capable of being half of a healthy relationship, to be able to identify what makes you happy and what your own needs are. Staying in this relationship is encouraging you both to conform to way of thinking and acting that isn't good for either of you.
Let her get a job and move. If you both have happy functioning individual lives without each other and still want to add the other person into that new better life, then you can do therapy to develop the skills to make that happen.
You know this isn't a good situation to be in. It probably won't ever feel like the right time to leave it. That doesn't mean it's not the right decision to go. Staying in this is your codependency tricking you like an addiction. Sometimes you have to force yourself to make a healthy choice even though it doesn't feel easy and good. Keep up with the therapy.
We're all rooting for you.