NEW 2 year on off relationship - starts Pg 21. Issues with trust/attachment.

[zoochadookdook]

I'm off to the therapist per usual this week (well after a month or 2 off - hah)

I know this isn't healthy but I've also shown clean breaks are extremely difficult for whatever reasons - in this case I'm trying to work out the rational/decision I actually control/am at peace with. The more we talk about past situations the more I realize the type of person she is and things she's experienced and it makes me feel a lot of different ways.

Past that I've been going back to the gym starting today - That is absolutlely something I need in my life - and she has a new job where it's not remote so we have our own time during the day etc. I've also managed to focus on work for once and will hopefully make some headway in my main and side company this week.

Thanks all for being kind in the responses and hope ya'll are having a great kick off to the week

[Villanelle]

I'm off to the therapist per usual this week (well after a month or 2 off - hah)

I know this isn't healthy but I've also shown clean breaks are extremely difficult for whatever reasons - in this case I'm trying to work out the rational/decision I actually control/am at peace with. The more we talk about past situations the more I realize the type of person she is and things she's experienced and it makes me feel a lot of different ways.

Past that I've been going back to the gym starting today - That is absolutlely something I need in my life - and she has a new job where it's not remote so we have our own time during the day etc. I've also managed to focus on work for once and will hopefully make some headway in my main and side company this week.

Thanks all for being kind in the responses and hope ya'll are having a great kick off to the week

Yes, clean breaks are difficult.  And the current shit-show situation (and the last shit-show situation) weren't difficult?  Of course they were.  You are just prolonging the agony, pawning it off--with interest--on next-month Zooch, rather than today Zooch.  And on next-month [Ex]girlfriend, instead of today [Ex]girlfriend. 

No option is without difficulty.  But prolonging it actually makes it more difficult, for longer.  It just feels more appealing because it is death by a million cuts, and you are only looking at the first few cuts so it seems better than one awful gut punch... and then it is over. 

[zoochadookdook]

So we've had some more intensive discussions and here's what it boils down to

1. She doesn't trust me - I hurt her in the past. I don't entirely trust her. We both understand this at this point.

2.  She's struggling - she's taken a job but it's only giving 25-30 hours a week. She mentions frequently her fears of never having a good job/being back to square one. In her mind that job was her only way to get experience and find a better paying job. I've tried to explain to her that it was not a actual PM position (desipite the title) and that being in that position (40k for 70 hour weeks) is very obtainable. Currently we are discussing routes as I want to help her find a job so that won't be such a determinate factor stressor.

3. I understand this isn't sustainable but she literally has nothing - I want to at least help her find a job or some income sources that don't just leave her homeless or jumping around to random places to stay fed/warm. It's insane but I feel slightly at fault - she left the job partly because of me - etc.

Hope ya'll are doing well

[Paper Chaser]

Don't beat yourself up about her job. $40k annually at 70hrs per week is $11/hr. That's a shitty, dime a dozen job even if we ignore the sexual predator elephant in the room. That's low in the current market, even for fast food. Set the bar higher. With something closer to $20/hr, she could make the same money in just 40hrs per week.

Around here (LCOL Midwest), basic retail jobs start at nearly that much. Warehouses and manufacturing jobs can eclipse $20/hr, and some are offering signing bonuses too. These are jobs that require little more than passing a drug test and showing up. Amazon's benefits start on day 1. If she's not willing to do that kind of work to avoid becoming homeless then that's an issue for her to deal with.

I applaud you for wanting to get her into a bit more stable position, but it shouldn't be difficult or take very long in the current environment.

[zoochadookdook]

Don't beat yourself up about her job. $40k annually at 70hrs per week is $11/hr. That's a shitty, dime a dozen job even if we ignore the sexual predator elephant in the room. That's low in the current market, even for fast food. Set the bar higher. With something closer to $20/hr, she could make the same money in just 40hrs per week.

Around here (LCOL Midwest), basic retail jobs start at nearly that much. Warehouses and manufacturing jobs can eclipse $20/hr, and some are offering signing bonuses too. These are jobs that require little more than passing a drug test and showing up. Amazon's benefits start on day 1. If she's not willing to do that kind of work to avoid becoming homeless then that's an issue for her to deal with.

I applaud you for wanting to get her into a bit more stable position, but it shouldn't be difficult or take very long in the current environment.

she's more than willing to work it's just - she hasn't had a corporate job or connections or experience - hence why all this bs happened in regards to her holding out to her past job - she held onto that as a lifeline as she hasn't seen nor experienced that amount of pay - just hourly temps or with less hours. This other job worked the shit out of her and she can't understand that is more than obtainable without her staying there for more "experience" on her resume in marketing/direct to consumer/marketing - I'm just looking for positions she should apply for

[Frankies Girl]

1. She doesn't trust me - I hurt her in the past. I don't entirely trust her. We both understand this at this point.
You don't trust each other and are operating as if you're both trying to control each other. Without a foundation of love and TRUST, you don't have a chance in hell of having a real and healthy relationship. You are may care about each other, but neither of you are in a place to be WITH each other... and honestly I'd gently suggest neither of you have done enough inward growth/examination/healing to be in any sort of an intimate relationship.


2.  She's struggling - she's taken a job but it's only giving 25-30 hours a week. She mentions frequently her fears of never having a good job/being back to square one. In her mind that job was her only way to get experience and find a better paying job. I've tried to explain to her that it was not a actual PM position (desipite the title) and that being in that position (40k for 70 hour weeks) is very obtainable. Currently we are discussing routes as I want to help her find a job so that won't be such a determinate factor stressor.
She's an adult. She should work on finding herself a job and other resources to support herself, not expect or allow you to step in to direct her life. 


3. I understand this isn't sustainable but she literally has nothing - I want to at least help her find a job or some income sources that don't just leave her homeless or jumping around to random places to stay fed/warm. It's insane but I feel slightly at fault - she left the job partly because of me - etc.
She does have many things. She's a fully functional, basically intelligent adult that managed to make it to her 20s without your help or assistance. Until she met you, she was coping for the most part, and she will figure things out again if you allow her to. She may make more mistakes but those are hers to make and you are not her parent and not responsible for her. This isn't sustainable but you need to understand that YOUR need to feel beholding and caretaker for others is also damaging to both you and her (and any other partner you may hook up with in the future).

I know you feel responsible but this is another sign of your codependent training. Savior complex, caretaker, feeling responsible and trying to care for an otherwise outwardly appearing adult is a sign that you're too enmeshed with their issues. I reiterate the suggestion to check out the book "Codependent No More" (there's even an audio version) and do some thinking and discussion with your therapist.


Please don't think I'm trying to be harsh or judgemental towards you. I am absolutely coming from a point of view of "been there, done that" and just hope to help you sooner rather than later. I figured some of this out MUCH later in life and if anything I can say can help point the way towards better relationship/mental health, I'd be over the moon happy for you.

[charis]

The short version of these posts is that your "help" is not helping her. It's preventing her from helping herself. There are ways to be supportive in which you are not in an enabling relationship.  The essence of your post is that you are treating her like your child.

 I know this from watching it with my parents and my adult sibling, who is likely forever hobbled by my parents help. My sibling (late 30s) may never be fully independent because my parents are always there to subsidize the rent, or provide a room, help with car payments, or student loans, buy the groceries, pay the cell phone bill etc etc.  It's never going to accomplish what they hope

[Sibley]

Ok, you want to help her. Here's a way to do it.

1. Give her the askamanager.org website. That will help her with her resume and cover letter, interviews, etc.
2. Tell her that she can live with you, as platonic roommates, for $x a month (not free!) for 3 months, after which she has to move out. Put this in writing please. You can get rental agreements online.
3. Leave her the heck alone. You are now platonic roommates.

This gives her some breathing space to get her life together. It's perfectly fair and generous. It helps get you and her disentangled emotionally and practically. What she does with her life is up to her. It is NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILTY what happens to her. You are responsibility is for yourself.

And please stay out of any more relationships until you've worked through your issues in therapy. It's not fair to anyone.

[marble_faun]

This is another repeat of the old pattern. You seem like a caring person,  but this can veer into a kind of paternalism where you feel like you are responsible for a girlfriend's money/housing/comfort even when the relationship is in shambles and you'd otherwise part ways.

I agree that would be nice to give her a few months to pull herself together job-wise considering all she has been through. But do you think it is possible to break up and still live together? To me this would be really hard, whether in your shoes or hers.

Where I am located, EVERYWHERE is hiring, and what used to be low-paid jobs have increased wages to well above the $11/hour she was making at her office job. I'd guess it is similar where you are. She can do this. She can be independent and find a new path.

[Poundwise]

I would guess that one issue that OP is facing is that his girlfriend has such low self esteem that any attempt to separate himself or pull away, upsets her... not because she especially loves him or because they are such a great fit, but because the perceived rejection is painful.

[ysette9]

I would guess that one issue that OP is facing is that his girlfriend has such low self esteem that any attempt to separate himself or pull away, upsets her... not because she especially loves him or because they are such a great fit, but because the perceived rejection is painful.

That is a theme, right? Something OP needs to work through in therapy, why he finds himself enmeshed with women who have such self esteem issues.

[zoochadookdook]

Wow what a ride.

So as of today - we're still together. Somehow - although the latest crux is she wants to move in together in 2 months (both our leases end) and I'm not willing to do that right now. We are not in a good place individually or together and she takes that very personally.

What's happened since I last posted?

I've been consumed by the hurt from what I found out. We have argued and yelled and I have definitely said many many hurtful repetitive things. She has finally taken the stance that she won't stand for that and I have to get over it. I had sent out emails to the ex bosses contacts and board. I'm done with all that - more minor details have changed and I've told her I don't trust her side of what happened. I have come to try to let it be but it's hard.

She told me about someone she slept with last may when we were apart. Sucked to hear but at least she told me.

I told her about someone I had slept with whilst we were apart during October. I broke it off when we got back together and there was nothing there. Unfortunately she perceived it as I had to have been seeing this person for 6 months back to when I was talking to people. I had not - it was a mistake - the girl moved after I broke it off she was so upset. The current gf lashed out at everyone in the gym community in private messgaes asking if they had known about us and forbid me to go back ever. I had a lot of friends and such there. I haven't been back and have been trying to find a new one she agrees with - but she's always concerned i'll interact with females at these locations and insists on going with me. She also dm'd the girl and told her a lot of awful things - how she was a mistake - etc etc.

She tells me I have to get over this obsession - that she has gotten over what I have done and we can't move on until I do.

I have communicated to her that she has not gotten over anything and constantly tells me things if we are apart during the day that ellude to me cheating. She will ask me what girl was over if something was moved from the sink. She will ask me who I'm texting and why I'm changing my apps quickly when I'm using my phone around her. She tells me she trusts me but then goes and says she has to live with me because it helps her trust me better - as in she knows I'm not out at night - and she has things here so no other girls are here.

At this point I've hired us a couples therapist as well as my own. The fights/my anger was too much and has led to a lot of lost time/productivity/sleep and resentment. The couples therapist has seen us together and on our own and has basically said neither of us is giving ground (me especially).

I told her we should not move in together right now. The therapist agreed this is a healthy boundary to set. She has taken that personally and gone through a range of things such as:

- I am regressing the relationship to how it was when we first started seeing eachother (it was only nights as I worked/was always training late), during that time period she felt like she had to force me to get my time and it turned out I wasn't respectful to her and committed

-Asking me what would change from our current living situation if we were to move in - mentioning this would show commitment to her in ways vs trying to "get away from her"

-She has also said if she gets her own place she would want to be single due to the amount of time it would take to travel between/with our animals/keep both clean/and the financial burdan wouldn't make sense if we were with eachother all the time

-She is interviewing for a new remote job next week and has said if we aren't moving in together - she will move up north with her family and long distance we could try but she doesn't think would work as she needs to be close to someone. She has wanted to live with them but finanancially and such it makes sense over getting her own place here to try to work on things.


On the plus side - we are communicating now more than ever. I can not live with her right now unless these dynamics change and are healthier. We are both holding onto way too much and it affects every part of our lives - whether we're both aware of what we're doing or not. We are going to a wedding this weekend and I'm hopeful to just have a relaxing weekend at my parents/a nice trip together and to speak more on these things when we get back monday.

Also - she has a new job - paying more and working normal 8-5 hours daily now. I'm so happy for her to have this and be able to see she didn't have to deal with that shit to be treated like a person.

Hope you all are doing well - sorry for this. I honestly don't know what I want to do/live whatever if we are not together and the codependency is very apparant. I just wanted to journal this down as this is the longest record I have of everything.

[mm1970]

the codependency is very apparant

Shew.  I think you probably know, and have known for a long time, what you need to do.  (End it, and for good.)  But only you can make that happen.

[SunnyDays]

Have you heard the expression "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose?"  French for "The more things change, the more they stay the same."  I think this applies here.  You're going around in circles and not getting anywhere.

Let her go, stay single for a good long while, until you work out your issues.  You're in no way psychologically healthy enough to be in a relationship.

Do it while you're still young enough to make a stable, happy life for yourself.  You don't want to be still doing this drama when you're 50.

[Kris]

Oh, my god. She's awful. This is all awful.

I'm very glad you have set the boundary not to move in with her. She is manipulative and controlling and frankly abusive. I cannot imagine being in a relationship with a person like that.

You have to end this. You really, really do.

[former player]

I know that popular culture on abuse is almost always about men abusing women but it also happens the other way around.  You might want to look up definitions of "coersive control", because to my mind that is exactly what this woman is doing to you.

And if that's not enough, you need to be aware that this is not only about you, it's about your relationship turning this woman into someone who is hurting herself as well as you, in ways that are past repairing and will only start to heal after the relationship ends.

I hope you find the resolve to end the relationship, once and for all and as soon as possible.

[Villanelle]

Wow what a ride.

So as of today - we're still together. Somehow - although the latest crux is she wants to move in together in 2 months (both our leases end) and I'm not willing to do that right now. We are not in a good place individually or together and she takes that very personally.

What's happened since I last posted?

I've been consumed by the hurt from what I found out. We have argued and yelled and I have definitely said many many hurtful repetitive things. She has finally taken the stance that she won't stand for that and I have to get over it. I had sent out emails to the ex bosses contacts and board. I'm done with all that - more minor details have changed and I've told her I don't trust her side of what happened. I have come to try to let it be but it's hard.

She told me about someone she slept with last may when we were apart. Sucked to hear but at least she told me.

I told her about someone I had slept with whilst we were apart during October. I broke it off when we got back together and there was nothing there. Unfortunately she perceived it as I had to have been seeing this person for 6 months back to when I was talking to people. I had not - it was a mistake - the girl moved after I broke it off she was so upset. The current gf lashed out at everyone in the gym community in private messgaes asking if they had known about us and forbid me to go back ever. I had a lot of friends and such there. I haven't been back and have been trying to find a new one she agrees with - but she's always concerned i'll interact with females at these locations and insists on going with me. She also dm'd the girl and told her a lot of awful things - how she was a mistake - etc etc.

She tells me I have to get over this obsession - that she has gotten over what I have done and we can't move on until I do.

I have communicated to her that she has not gotten over anything and constantly tells me things if we are apart during the day that ellude to me cheating. She will ask me what girl was over if something was moved from the sink. She will ask me who I'm texting and why I'm changing my apps quickly when I'm using my phone around her. She tells me she trusts me but then goes and says she has to live with me because it helps her trust me better - as in she knows I'm not out at night - and she has things here so no other girls are here.

At this point I've hired us a couples therapist as well as my own. The fights/my anger was too much and has led to a lot of lost time/productivity/sleep and resentment. The couples therapist has seen us together and on our own and has basically said neither of us is giving ground (me especially).

I told her we should not move in together right now. The therapist agreed this is a healthy boundary to set. She has taken that personally and gone through a range of things such as:

- I am regressing the relationship to how it was when we first started seeing eachother (it was only nights as I worked/was always training late), during that time period she felt like she had to force me to get my time and it turned out I wasn't respectful to her and committed

-Asking me what would change from our current living situation if we were to move in - mentioning this would show commitment to her in ways vs trying to "get away from her"

-She has also said if she gets her own place she would want to be single due to the amount of time it would take to travel between/with our animals/keep both clean/and the financial burdan wouldn't make sense if we were with eachother all the time

-She is interviewing for a new remote job next week and has said if we aren't moving in together - she will move up north with her family and long distance we could try but she doesn't think would work as she needs to be close to someone. She has wanted to live with them but finanancially and such it makes sense over getting her own place here to try to work on things.


On the plus side - we are communicating now more than ever. I can not live with her right now unless these dynamics change and are healthier. We are both holding onto way too much and it affects every part of our lives - whether we're both aware of what we're doing or not. We are going to a wedding this weekend and I'm hopeful to just have a relaxing weekend at my parents/a nice trip together and to speak more on these things when we get back monday.

Also - she has a new job - paying more and working normal 8-5 hours daily now. I'm so happy for her to have this and be able to see she didn't have to deal with that shit to be treated like a person.

Hope you all are doing well - sorry for this. I honestly don't know what I want to do/live whatever if we are not together and the codependency is very apparant. I just wanted to journal this down as this is the longest record I have of everything.

So you are continuing a relationship with someone who doesn't care enough about being with your that she's willing to drive?  Seriously?  Think about that.  You mean so little to her that some minor inconvenience isn't worth it?

Tell her you thought about what she said about being single if she gets her own place, you agree with it, and it is time to end things. 

Also, you are in the same place you were months ago with her.  And the same place you were years ago with the previous relationship.  You keep doing this to yourself.  Cancel the couples' counseling, break up with her, and double up on your own counseling. 

[BicycleB]

Glad that you're keeping a record!

+1 on the personal counseling. Best wishes on attaining peaceful independence.

[pbkmaine]

When you have a group as diverse as this one in terms of of age, background, family situation, and we’re all saying exactly the same thing, take it seriously. End this relationship and DO NOT START ANOTHER ONE UNTIL YOU FIGURE OUT WHY YOU KEEP DOING THIS.

If I had to guess, it’s that you have some kind of “white knight” instinct. You want to rescue the troubled girl. The thing is, real life does not work like that. You can’t “fix” another person. I was having this discussion the other day with a friend who has had trouble finding true love. And you can’t have that until your criteria are right.

Here are mine:
1) Does this person want a strong, independent partner?
2) Can they be one themselves?
3) Do I like the person I am when I am with them?
4) Are they capable of enduring love?
5) Are their basic attitudes (including towards money) compatible with mine?

[charis]

Why are you with this person?

Are you constantly having explosive make up sex?  That's the only thing I can imagine keeping you in the hell that is this relationship. I don't want to accuse you of being a troll but it feels like we are being trolled at this point.

[iris lily]

Wow what a ride. …

So you are continuing a relationship with someone who doesn't care enough about being with your that she's willing to drive?  Seriously?  Think about that.  You mean so little to her that some minor inconvenience isn't worth it?

Tell her you thought about what she said about being single if she gets her own place, you agree with it, and it is time to end things. 

Also, you are in the same place you were months ago with her.  And the same place you were years ago…

I interpreted her words to mean she doesn’t want a long distance relationship. I assume that per moving “up north “means away, hundreds of miles. Maybe not.

But that doesn’t matter I agree with everything else you said. This guy needs to end this relationship, and most importantly as people pointed out, not jump into another one.

[marble_faun]

This whole relationship is warped. Nightmare layered over nightmare.

Please just end things! It sounds like pure emotional torture at this point.

[ysette9]

I hope the next update is this thread is that our dear OP is single and committed to staying that way for a good long while.

[Kris]

I hope the next update is this thread is that our dear OP is single and committed to staying that way for a good long while.

I think most of us hope that every time he posts a new update.

[the_hobbitish]

"I honestly don't know what I want to do/live whatever if we are not together and the codependency is very apparant. "

If you really mean you don't know what you would want for yourself/your life without this person, that's a sign that you are not in a healthy place. It's an important part of being a healthy adult, and being capable of being half of a healthy relationship, to be able to identify what makes you happy and what your own needs are. Staying in this relationship is encouraging you both to conform to way of thinking and acting that isn't good for either of you.

Let her get a job and move. If you both have happy functioning individual lives without each other and still want to add the other person into that new better life, then you can do therapy to develop the skills to make that happen.

You know this isn't a good situation to be in. It probably won't ever feel like the right time to leave it. That doesn't mean it's not the right decision to go. Staying in this is your codependency tricking you like an addiction. Sometimes you have to force yourself to make a healthy choice even though it doesn't feel easy and good. Keep up with the therapy.

We're all rooting for you.