NEW 2 year on off relationship - starts Pg 21. Issues with trust/attachment.

[charis]

Why did you feel it was your place to call the wife of your girlfriend's boss to report he was cheating on her with your off again in again GF? That's a wild overstep.

[ysette9]

Oh boy. I’m so sorry to see this update and I’m sorry ou are still struggling.

I wish you could see yourself from the outside to recognize how unhappy this person is making you. You deserve a lot better. This is not healthy.

[former player]

To start with, the woman you are talking about was groomed, exploited and abused by a predatory man.  I wish there were some sort of app for teenage and college age girls "Predatory men and the methods they use to exploit you" which could help them steer clear of that sort of situation.  Looking at things from her point of view I think the best thing would be to move on not only from that man but also from this unsatisfactory on/off relationship she has had with you which will forever be tied up with her unhappy experience of being exploited by that man.  By all means be a friend to her, if that works for both of you.

Looking at things from your point of view, you have a long history of trying to hold on to relationships which are less than satisfactory and difficulty in finding your way through those relationships to the possibility of something more satisfactory.  I think you need to internalise the concepts "clean break" and "not being the sort of dog that turns around and sniffs its own poo" (sorry if that's a bit graphic).

As for you "talking to other girls" while you were together for a year, I've got to admit I'm not up on current dating mores.  I understand that there can be an initial period of not being exclusive in a budding relationship.  I wouldn't have thought that should last for a year, though: at some point you need to decide either this is possibly going somewhere and should be exclusive or you decide it's not going anywhere and (depending on how you both feel) it should either end or turn into a "booty call" situation.  Again, you seem to have put off making this decision and just let the whole situation drift on in an unsatisfactory manner.  That's on you, but also partly on your girlfriend for not calling you out on it sooner - which makes me think that the two of you together are probably not a healthy dynamic, even if the poor woman didn't have the fallout from her abuser hanging over her.

And I agree with charis: talking to your ex's abuser's wife can have no good outcomes.  I'm not sure why you did it but whatever your reason it wasn't a good one.  Use this to learn where good boundaries (and good manners) in personal conduct are.

[Paper Chaser]

Trust issues and missteps from both sides? This girl's not the right fit man. Time to move on. Again. Don't let this one drag on like the last one did because of sunk costs.

[OtherJen]

To start with, the woman you are talking about was groomed, exploited and abused by a predatory man.  I wish there were some sort of app for teenage and college age girls "Predatory men and the methods they use to exploit you" which could help them steer clear of that sort of situation.  Looking at things from her point of view I think the best thing would be to move on not only from that man but also from this unsatisfactory on/off relationship she has had with you which will forever be tied up with her unhappy experience of being exploited by that man.  By all means be a friend to her, if that works for both of you.

Looking at things from your point of view, you have a long history of trying to hold on to relationships which are less than satisfactory and difficulty in finding your way through those relationships to the possibility of something more satisfactory.  I think you need to internalise the concepts "clean break" and "not being the sort of dog that turns around and sniffs its own poo" (sorry if that's a bit graphic).

As for you "talking to other girls" while you were together for a year, I've got to admit I'm not up on current dating mores.  I understand that there can be an initial period of not being exclusive in a budding relationship.  I wouldn't have thought that should last for a year, though: at some point you need to decide either this is possibly going somewhere and should be exclusive or you decide it's not going anywhere and (depending on how you both feel) it should either end or turn into a "booty call" situation.  Again, you seem to have put off making this decision and just let the whole situation drift on in an unsatisfactory manner.  That's on you, but also partly on your girlfriend for not calling you out on it sooner - which makes me think that the two of you together are probably not a healthy dynamic, even if the poor woman didn't have the fallout from her abuser hanging over her.

And I agree with charis: talking to your ex's abuser's wife can have no good outcomes.  I'm not sure why you did it but whatever your reason it wasn't a good one.  Use this to learn where good boundaries (and good manners) in personal conduct are.

All of this.

[BikeFanatic]

Well no new advice from me, just posting to say I am reading and I feel for you, no judgements we all make mistakes , dont be too hard on yourself.

[Villanelle]

It seems like you have a pattern of not being able to walk away from relationships when they are very clearly not working and badly damaged.  You cling, even after they are essentially over in all but name. 

And from a larger perspective, it sounds like you like the idea of having a girlfriend/partner, and you like the idea of who you make these specific women out to be, but you see that far more than you see the reality of them.  You love the idea of who you think they are, not who they actually are.  You love the idea of a relationship and try to shoehorn the relationship you are in, and the woman you are in it with, into that vision, rather than going out and actually finding something close to the vision.  "Insert nice woman into girlfriend role", rather than developing a healthy, stable, relatively drama-free relationship organically.  I think maybe you want it so badly that you are willing to tell yourself you have it, repeatedly, when you clearly don't. 

You say she "led him on" to keep the job.  If a woman has to let her boss think he might get in her pants again in order to keep her job, that's abusive, disgusting, and illegal on his part.  A woman doing what she has to in order to not be fired for not sleeping her boss is in a shit situation, doing the best she can.  She is not "leading anyone one".  She is dealing with intense sexual harassment and is trying not to lose her livelihood.  And the fact that you don't acknowledge that are are upset about it doesn't say great things about you, and is something you need to explore.  On your own.  ruly is.

Meanwhile you were "talking to other girls" for a year.  That can mean a lot of things but it sounds like at best it was poor judgement and disrespectful to your partner, and at worst it was an emotional affair. 

Walk away.  Start therapy ASAP, and maybe make a rule for yourself that you absolutely will not date anyone for at least 6 months (and that you need to be doing counseling that entire time). You've got some stuff to work through and until you do, it is very unlikely you will ever be able to find a healthy relationship or be the partner that someone healthy and stable needs you to be. 

[six-car-habit]

  Zooch never said she led the boss on - "to stay employed" .   He said she led him on, and possibly slept with him, in order to " get a promotion".  Huge difference.

 Why would the boss tell her he was " getting a divorce" ?    That has nothing to do with a promotion , {or keeping her job}  and everything to do with trying to entice her into a 'serious'  intimate relationship.   

  Nowhere does Zooch state that the boss said "bleep me or your fired" or " bleep me and you can have a raise".  Lots of jumping to conclusions based on what's been written so far, perhaps by myself as well.

a]   girlfriend accepts new position within company while dating Zooch
b]  GF goes on out of town business trips with Boss, getting treated "like a servant".  Boss dangles idea of car/ raise and tells GF he's getting divorced.
c]   Zooch and GF break up for 1 month
d]  GF sleeps with Boss within 29 days of breakup - maybe because she is willing to trade sex for future advancement, or is actually attracted to boss, or is horny for physical contact.
e]   Zooch and GF get back together, presumably they are being sexually intimate, and GF neglects to tell Z she's been getting jiggy w/ Boss
f]  Boss tries for more liasons w/ GF but she shuts him down, keeps her job, doesn't get demoted. 
g]   Eventually Zooch figures out the subterfuge, they have a serious discussion, instead of trying another position at the company, she quits.


 Advice for Zooch. Stop taking GF's on cruises. It worked out badly with the last GF.
 And now you cancelled a cruise you were going to take current GF on, because the fight/discussion happened.
 Maybe you dangling the cruise to her , was not much different than Boss dangling the car...?

 

 

[Tyson]

Maybe you should start dating women that are low drama.  And treat them well, from the beginning. 

[Villanelle]

Zooch never said she led the boss on - "to stay employed" .   He said she led him on, and possibly slept with him, in order to " get a promotion".  Huge difference.

 Why would the boss tell her he was " getting a divorce" ?    That has nothing to do with a promotion , {or keeping her job}  and everything to do with trying to entice her into a 'serious'  intimate relationship.   

  Nowhere does Zooch state that the boss said "bleep me or your fired" or " bleep me and you can have a raise".  Lots of jumping to conclusions based on what's been written so far, perhaps by myself as well.

a]   girlfriend accepts new position within company while dating Zooch
b]  GF goes on out of town business trips with Boss, getting treated "like a servant".  Boss dangles idea of car/ raise and tells GF he's getting divorced.
c]   Zooch and GF break up for 1 month
d]  GF sleeps with Boss within 29 days of breakup - maybe because she is willing to trade sex for future advancement, or is actually attracted to boss, or is horny for physical contact.
e]   Zooch and GF get back together, presumably they are being sexually intimate, and GF neglects to tell Z she's been getting jiggy w/ Boss
f]  Boss tries for more liasons w/ GF but she shuts him down, keeps her job, doesn't get demoted.  Eventually Zooch figures out the subterfuge, they have a serious discussion, instead of trying to go back to her old/another position at the company, she quits.

 

 

Um, gross.

First, it sounds like you don't have much understanding of power dynamics and how they play into sexual pressure and sexual harassment.  And as for the bolded, he said, "although her using him/leading him on to keep the job ".  (See below.) That is cut directly from his post.  Unless you are arguing that "keep the job" and "stay employed" are not the same thing, he did in fact say that. 

And as for point d, you left or, "or maybe because she feared that turning down her boss' very aggressive sexual advances could lead to her losing her job". 

She neglected to tell him she had "gotten jiggy" (Jesus, really??), perhaps in part because SHE WAS A VICTIM OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT, and that stuff can be hard to talk about.  Why is it hard to talk about?  Well I think you post quite clearly demonstrates why. 

Ohhh, Zoo.

I’m so sorry. That must hurt so much.

Honestly. I just wish so, so much that you would let go and move on.

To be clear - this is a new relationship.

It started when I moved down and I treated it like - well I don't know. I didn't respect her or it the way I should have - then when we seperated I wanted to get back together and we spoke for a while whilst I tried to maintain if I was on her timeline/path for moving forward and to know if she could forgive me.

In the in between she was given a new job - in which she was groomed by her "boss" who basically told her he was divorcing his wife and would fly her out (unbeknownst to the wife) on business trips. We were together during some of this and I could tell this was a crazy situation (he treated her like a servant/40k a year and expected her on the phone whenever however). I found out when we officially got back together after a bad breakup for a month that she had slept with him (he was promising her a car/raise/better job etc). I found out 3 months post - the whole time she had still maintained this job and had declined his advances in texts multiple times (despite me not seeing those) - When i found the texts I confronted her and she left the job right away. I then called the guys wife (whom he made every effort to hide). Turns out he was a serial cheater - prostitutes and such - prior to marraige and she still suspected a ton. Had no idea my gf was on these trips or so on and so forth but was greatful. I cancelled the cruise right away and we just had all kinds of arguments/talks/so on and so forth from there.

I guess we've been in a loop for a few months now - i'm trying to get over what I found out - despite the fact we weren't together when it happened (although her using him/leading him on to keep the job - which is the best job/career/treatment of being an employee she's ever received apparantly) - and she's trying to get over me talking to other girls whilst we were together for the first year.

Emotionally it's rough and I feel like we both are just trying to move past what the other has done and feel normal again - I'll make a whole post detailing it tomorrow

[six-car-habit]

 Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
 Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts

 

[Villanelle]

Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
 Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts

Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that).  With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent.  Maybe she would have done it anyway.  But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed. 

So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him.  Whatevs. 

[RetiredAt63]

Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
 Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts

Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that).  With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent.  Maybe she would have done it anyway.  But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed. 

So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him.  Whatevs.

This is a perennial topic at Captain Awkward.  Creepy dudes gonna creep if they have the power.  And "have the power" includes consequences happening to the person being pressured, not the person doing the pressuring.

[OtherJen]

Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
 Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts

Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that).  With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent.  Maybe she would have done it anyway.  But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed. 

So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him.  Whatevs.

This is a perennial topic at Captain Awkward.  Creepy dudes gonna creep if they have the power.  And "have the power" includes consequences happening to the person being pressured, not the person doing the pressuring.

Yep. I had to threaten to file harassment charges before my former choir director would leave me alone and stop stalking my house and social media, and he had no influence on my ability to earn a livelihood. Still damaged my reputation in the local choral community. I can't imagine being backed into a corner by my employer if I didn't feel I had any recourse.

[RetiredAt63]

Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
 Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts

Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that).  With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent.  Maybe she would have done it anyway.  But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed. 

So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him.  Whatevs.

This is a perennial topic at Captain Awkward.  Creepy dudes gonna creep if they have the power.  And "have the power" includes consequences happening to the person being pressured, not the person doing the pressuring.

Yep. I had to threaten to file harassment charges before my former choir director would leave me alone and stop stalking my house and social media, and he had no influence on my ability to earn a livelihood. Still damaged my reputation in the local choral community. I can't imagine being backed into a corner by my employer if I didn't feel I had any recourse.

Total sympathy, that sucks.

I didn't get it much (innuendo tended to go over my head when I was young, often still does) but I have seen it happen even in a strong union setting.  She ended up totally changing careers, not just jobs.

[RetiredAt63]

OP, just a thought, but you might want to change your journal title to reflect your present situation.  If you go back to your very first post you can edit it.

[Sibley]

Ooof. OP, you really have quite a talent for getting yourself into relationship messes. I'm going to also recommend that you need to get into therapy. There's a lot of unhealthy and unhelpful patterns that you've got, and a good therapist can help you work through those.

[Kris]

OP, just a thought, but you might want to change your journal title to reflect your present situation.  If you go back to your very first post you can edit it.

I think that’s a good idea, too, OP. Others might make the mistake I made thinking you were still talking about the same woman if they don’t read through the whole thing carefully.

[Adventine]

OP, just a thought, but you might want to change your journal title to reflect your present situation.  If you go back to your very first post you can edit it.

I think that’s a good idea, too, OP. Others might make the mistake I made thinking you were still talking about the same woman if they don’t read through the whole thing carefully.

That's what I thought too, so I was totally flabbergasted by the update.


OP, you seemed to have learned a lesson when you broke up with your 2019 girlfriend. But it looks like you got yourself into a whole other level of dysfunction with your 2022 girlfriend. I also recommend therapy and staying single until you can work out these recurring issues you have with your romantic relationships.

[marble_faun]

Seems like you are repeating a pattern from your previous relationship.

(1) The relationship is soured from the very beginning when you are either cheating or flirting (?) with other women.

(2) The girlfriend cannot get over this and does not forgive you, but stays with you anyway and later keeps raising the matter as a guilt trip.

(3) The girlfriend herself has a thorny issue that undermines the relationship. (In this case, sleeping with her boss and not telling you. You weren't technically dating at the time, so it wasn't cheating exactly, but this is a really huge thing to just not mention, especially as it sounds like it was a major source of stress in her work life. She was facing ongoing sexual harassment from her boss and felt like she had to keep it a secret.)

(4) Resentments linger, poisoning both your lives, yet you don't break up. Circular arguments go on and on and on.

(5) You want to take your girlfriend on a nice cruise. But the cruise is cursed thanks to points 1-4. Mutual distrust strips away the possibility of just being normal and happy together on a boat.

~

Her ex-boss seems HORRIBLE. Maybe you could forgive her, considering that he was a creep and liar who had a lot of power over her, controlling her employment. But that's only one part of the problem. She also is still upset about your "talking with other girls" more than a year ago. Once again you're locked in a blame-game spiral that might never end.

Please don't let this go on and on like with your last girlfriend. It would be better to break up sooner rather than let this eat you both alive for years.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I see less of a pattern, and more of a theme: guilt.

Certainly someone who cheats and faces their partner's anger is going to feel guilty... maybe for years, which is what it sounded like in the 7 year relationship.  But a quote highlighted it for me, when that girlfriend lamented not growing old together.  Zooch replied it was "not fair" for him to "take away her vision of the future".  But a shared future isn't hers to own - it's shared.  To me, this was purely guilt talking - not just sympathy, but guilt.  I view that relationship as mostly driven by guilt, highlighted by the years of sexless relationship.

Now maybe finding someone ashamed of how their boss used them is a pattern, or maybe not.  But it suggests seeing a therapist to discuss guilt and relationships might be valuable for Zooch.  I could also be wrong - maybe guilt will not be a factor in the next relationship... but I suspect it will.

[Villanelle]

I see less of a pattern, and more of a theme: guilt.

Certainly someone who cheats and faces their partner's anger is going to feel guilty... maybe for years, which is what it sounded like in the 7 year relationship.  But a quote highlighted it for me, when that girlfriend lamented not growing old together.  Zooch replied it was "not fair" for him to "take away her vision of the future".  But a shared future isn't hers to own - it's shared.  To me, this was purely guilt talking - not just sympathy, but guilt.  I view that relationship as mostly driven by guilt, highlighted by the years of sexless relationship.

Now maybe finding someone ashamed of how their boss used them is a pattern, or maybe not.  But it suggests seeing a therapist to discuss guilt and relationships might be valuable for Zooch.  I could also be wrong - maybe guilt will not be a factor in the next relationship... but I suspect it will.

[/b]

I suspect it will as well, not least because Zooch seems to have trouble with true fidelity and full commitment, so he creates things to later feel guilty about.  He cheats, he "talks to other girls" to a level that his partner is not only not okay with, but that she carries continued anger or pain over.  Then he feels guilty about those things.  The root of that that need to be addressed is, of course, the lack of full and faithful commitment in the first place.  (Though I agree that he also maybe carries the guilt in a ay that makes it all even more unhealthy.  Would he have tolerated years in a sexless relationship, when sex is clearly important to him, if he didn't have that guilt?  Hard to say, but certainly it seems less likely. It sounds like they both used his past bad acts and guilt to give her a free pass in some ways.) But regardless of that, most relationships never fully recover from cheating, so once the trust is broken, the relationship is likely doomed regardless of how he processes and carries that guilt.) Some of that may just have to do with is own commitment issues and FOMO, and some of it may be due to the fact that he picks the wrong partners so is never quit as committed as one needs to be.  All of those are things that a great therapist can help with. 

[zoochadookdook]

TLDR;

this boss was/is a massive POS - he is a serial cheater/sociopath/manipulator - I can at least see that and understand why she acted how she did in some metrics

*I have a therapist - I haven't seen him in a month. I can't say if he's good or bad just that I like him I guess but it's a lot of words at a wall

*I did not cheat physically but emotionally certainly. That was scummy and unfair and laid a shitty foundation. I guess if I had to say why I wanted emotional attention? That led to emotional connections but I never wanted to date/see those people in person.

*This relationship - or the first part began in 2020. I definitely have a propensity for attachment/attachment issues that's becoming more and more clear

*This is hard - she loves me - constantly affirms that and talks about our future/makes plans/etc etc. She's a loving person wants a family and has had a shitty life in a lot of aspects. She currently lives with me and works with me on weekends on my start up and our lives are super ingrained.  That being said here's some more talking points.







Hey all - I'll give the whole shebang story tomorrow - sorry work has been a bear

I have reason to believe this was definitely a power dynamic thing over time and in the moment we were not together. Does that make it suck less? Not at all - but here are some details

*She has worked many dumpy jobs in customer service and has been sexually victimized several times. When pursuing legal recorse she was previously fired with no consequence to her employer.

*Her job prior was a similar company culture. They'd go out and party and hired a lot of younger girls to go around with the executives. She was 19-20 at the time and had never had that sort of experience - this boss had worked for that company and they had known eachother from events - hence how she was offered this job years later. She had actually had a relationship with a corporate guy at that company that messed her up (he had a wife and kids he hid from her and she had no idea).

*In this new job we were having issues and she was taken on trips/treated well for once. This new "ceo" took her and put her in front of investors/to secure funding and all the corporate events/talked her up. She was told many times he could make her successful and things along the lines of buying her a car and such. Granted she did an insane amount of work (was expected to answer the phone whenever in the eve/early mornings) and worked 70+ hour weeks - but whenever it came time to talk about a pay raise it was always downplayed her work.  This guy had funding and spent it on travel - food -whatever which is kind of funny as the company still hasn't turned any sort of profit.

*When we broke up officially right around her birthday is when he first moved in on her - basically he sent her a bday dinner or whatever and it turned flirty from there. She thought we weren't getting back together and of course her friends were like live your best life. They didn't see the shitty womanizing red flag side of this "married" guy I had seen whilst her living with me working and hearing him speak.  When we broke up we had been going on time where I didn't know if I was in line with her life goals and such and really it wasn't working through and yeah - so we were seperated and kind of talking on and off whilst talking to other people.

*She was also told he was divorcing his wife amongst many other things. Accordingly the wife had no idea just suspicions of him since he had been to therapy prior and seems to be a sociopath. He had always had his background blurred on meetings to hide his wife - had had her off his social media etc etc. After they slept together he apparantly went to call his kids and she heard him tell his wife he loved her and that's when she basically went off on him and broke it off in text when she came back from the trip. I had also texted her on that trip I loved her and wanted to try to make us work and she said she had been waiting to hear that for so long and she didn't think I wanted to be with her until I sent that and it was like a lightbulb moment of "really - it took all this to hear we should be together". I don't know - I think she had a lot going on and really just made a bad choice on information she was given.

*He wouldn't talk to her for a month plus after that - I found texts several months later where he had said he missed her ect and seeing pictures of her and such but she had told him she wasn't going to cheat etc but still wanted to be friends. According to her she wanted to get to january where she was supposed to get a decent raise and then look for another job. The raise was shit to be honest and he basically talked to her about she shouldn't work that much and yada yada yada despite telling her and saying she should do all the tasks. She had also refused to go on a work trip to florida in that time unless I could come and my big red flag was when he said don't come I would be a distraction (lmao what the fuck). So she wasn't telling him to fuck off exactly but she also was in a hard spot of career/career goals/starting to apply at different jobs and hoping he wouldn't fire her.

When I found out I kind of figured the situation. According to her she cut ties with the other guys she was talking to at the time and she had cut him out in that way after that trip completely. We had sort of been talking - I was watching her dog even but it was on the aftermath of our "worst" breakup and she was definitive we weren't together at the time. She was in a hard spot as she wants to be successful and this was the first time any job has treated her beyond shitty and she's a crazy hard worker - and I sort of understand she was groomed into this. She was molested several times as a young child by various family members and even her mom had told her she shouldn't leave this job (she knew something was going on but no idea on the craziness of this dudes actual lies) - which is a huge warning sign. Her basic thought process was do whatever it takes to be successful and it's just sad. When I found out she quit - he was telling her all this shit on how no one else would hire her or view her as a professional and even wanted her to stay - which was insane to me. She has worked with me on my side company for a few weeks and just got a new position for

Let it be known that I was talking to other girls prior - we separated after that and I was definitely at fault for not being in the relationship 100% in the first place. She doesn't trust me in the background due to that and constantly needs to know if girls are contacting me/she feels like I could be. I feel like I trust her because I kind of get this situation but as a whole I feel lied to and just never viewed her as that kind of person. She's so misguided and has put trust in so much of the wrong things and I'm just sad daily.

There's a bunch more to it - but that's my life as of now - we get through the daily. I don't train much at the gyms - although she may start coming - as there's girls there I was friends with but because I never talked about them she's thinking they were girls I was "talking too" at the time. She also doesn't go out etc outside of this new job which is fine - I'm a home body. The good news is her new position is in a child care facility and they are mostly female/female owned and I'm hoping it will show her a different perspective on work and treatment and life as a whole - she deserves to understand that guys aren't always going to abuse her and she doesn't have to be silent about it to keep her job.

Hope ya'll are doing well - I'm sorry I don't have a super happy thing to type up it's just I have literally no one else to talk to. Even my therapist I feel disconnected from and my friends/family I'm generally distant.

[zoochadookdook]

It seems like you have a pattern of not being able to walk away from relationships when they are very clearly not working and badly damaged.  You cling, even after they are essentially over in all but name. 

And from a larger perspective, it sounds like you like the idea of having a girlfriend/partner, and you like the idea of who you make these specific women out to be, but you see that far more than you see the reality of them.  You love the idea of who you think they are, not who they actually are.  You love the idea of a relationship and try to shoehorn the relationship you are in, and the woman you are in it with, into that vision, rather than going out and actually finding something close to the vision.  "Insert nice woman into girlfriend role", rather than developing a healthy, stable, relatively drama-free relationship organically.  I think maybe you want it so badly that you are willing to tell yourself you have it, repeatedly, when you clearly don't. 

You say she "led him on" to keep the job.  If a woman has to let her boss think he might get in her pants again in order to keep her job, that's abusive, disgusting, and illegal on his part.  A woman doing what she has to in order to not be fired for not sleeping her boss is in a shit situation, doing the best she can.  She is not "leading anyone one".  She is dealing with intense sexual harassment and is trying not to lose her livelihood.  And the fact that you don't acknowledge that are are upset about it doesn't say great things about you, and is something you need to explore.  On your own.  ruly is.

Meanwhile you were "talking to other girls" for a year.  That can mean a lot of things but it sounds like at best it was poor judgement and disrespectful to your partner, and at worst it was an emotional affair. 

Walk away.  Start therapy ASAP, and maybe make a rule for yourself that you absolutely will not date anyone for at least 6 months (and that you need to be doing counseling that entire time). You've got some stuff to work through and until you do, it is very unlikely you will ever be able to find a healthy relationship or be the partner that someone healthy and stable needs you to be.

I was INSANELY pissed because I knew for months this POS was manipulating her. Even back together I could tell from the hours she worked and from how he expected her to tell him whatever whenever - It was VERY apparant it was in no way shape or form professional or healthy - however whenever I or any other friend would tell her or voice concerns it would turn into a fight. It was a start up with like 4 employees and their argument was (despite paying contracters and such much more than her) that they couldn't afford to pay her more - and she actually enjoyed being given real work not just answering phones or food or retail - she built and designed their entire website/api intergration/POS and ran their weekend popups amongst many other tasks for the fact that she thought she would be successful or at least gain the experience to make a bunch somewhere else.

When I saw the texts I was so fucking upset because I knew
1) she didn't tell me when I asked if anything had happened when we got back together
2)literally I had seen and felt all these warning signs and been told to trust her - and I'm upset she ever had to feel like that was a position she had to stay in for financial stability/anything - it was a start up and this is the "ceo" so where else could she go? Prior she had been fired with no legal recourse to the manager from a very large pizza chain and in her mind no system works. It's extremely frustrating and disgusting for anyone to act in that manner - that's why I went and found his actual wife and called her. Fuck him .

[zoochadookdook]

Why did you feel it was your place to call the wife of your girlfriend's boss to report he was cheating on her with your off again in again GF? That's a wild overstep.

We had been together for 3 months. She lives with me and work was constantly a fight - she was working til 9 - weekends etc. When I found out and she had said he told her they were getting divorced and such - I was pissed and wanted to know the truth so I contacted the wife.

I didn't have to but I was so sick of hearing this guy talk to people or the things she'd tell me - and I wanted to know if he was using her the whole time or if he was just a dick and actually was running a company/her career there had merit. Turns out that dude lied about everything up and down and has a sex addiction - not to mention his wife even worked at the company and my gf didn't even know - nor had she met or known my gf had gone on so many work trips. I guess he had previously gotten fired from another job and she had built his career back and he deleted all the evidence of his prior infedelity from the wives laptop. It just gets worse and worse lol. I have a whole ass hour long recorded conversation about him.

In short I wanted my GF to know who she trusted and to know if I was fucking crazy for my suspicions. Also fuck that guy - he thinks he's smarter than everyone else/invincible because he preys on young girls with no voice and I wanted him to see people won't deal with that shit. He was still texting my gf months later trying to say he missed her - he'd fly her out. The wife deserved to see that.

[LifeHappens]

I feel for both you and your GF. Your GF has significant trauma and abuse history and needs professional counseling to ever deal with it properly. I don't see how you two can work as a couple unless you both get help.

[zoochadookdook]

  Zooch never said she led the boss on - "to stay employed" .   He said she led him on, and possibly slept with him, in order to " get a promotion".  Huge difference.

 Why would the boss tell her he was " getting a divorce" ?    That has nothing to do with a promotion , {or keeping her job}  and everything to do with trying to entice her into a 'serious'  intimate relationship.   

  Nowhere does Zooch state that the boss said "bleep me or your fired" or " bleep me and you can have a raise".  Lots of jumping to conclusions based on what's been written so far, perhaps by myself as well.

a]   girlfriend accepts new position within company while dating Zooch
b]  GF goes on out of town business trips with Boss, getting treated "like a servant".  Boss dangles idea of car/ raise and tells GF he's getting divorced.
c]   Zooch and GF break up for 1 month
d]  GF sleeps with Boss within 29 days of breakup - maybe because she is willing to trade sex for future advancement, or is actually attracted to boss, or is horny for physical contact.
e]   Zooch and GF get back together, presumably they are being sexually intimate, and GF neglects to tell Z she's been getting jiggy w/ Boss
f]  Boss tries for more liasons w/ GF but she shuts him down, keeps her job, doesn't get demoted. 
g]   Eventually Zooch figures out the subterfuge, they have a serious discussion, instead of trying another position at the company, she quits.


 Advice for Zooch. Stop taking GF's on cruises. It worked out badly with the last GF.
 And now you cancelled a cruise you were going to take current GF on, because the fight/discussion happened.
 Maybe you dangling the cruise to her , was not much different than Boss dangling the car...?

 

 

Sorry - both things are true.

She led him on after she ended things (when she got back with me/found out he was possibly lying about his divorce/told his wife he loved her on a call ON that trip) to keep the job/get more experience to get a better job/her "raise review" was 2 months away.

That guy is a serial cheater - according to his wife before marriage he was caught with a bunch of prositutes. He got fired and they had to move during covid as he cheated at a prior company. Etc etc.

You have to understand this is a small start up - literally like 4-5 people and 2 of them are the vp/ceo and both are on the board in Mexico. My gf has worked for the company they both did prior and executives would just take all the younger employees on trips/to store openings to do all the work and then party all night. This part culture was ingrained in her from a young age.

E] I asked had anything happened with your boss. Constant state of fights as he would tell her things like "don't come on this trip your bf will be a distraction" when being told I'd also be there training.

G] I found out the day before we were going on a cruise. Told her to get out. She had told me she had been with no one in our time apart - etc etc. We reconciled days later and have been trying to make it work.

[zoochadookdook]

To start with, the woman you are talking about was groomed, exploited and abused by a predatory man.  I wish there were some sort of app for teenage and college age girls "Predatory men and the methods they use to exploit you" which could help them steer clear of that sort of situation.  Looking at things from her point of view I think the best thing would be to move on not only from that man but also from this unsatisfactory on/off relationship she has had with you which will forever be tied up with her unhappy experience of being exploited by that man.  By all means be a friend to her, if that works for both of you.

Looking at things from your point of view, you have a long history of trying to hold on to relationships which are less than satisfactory and difficulty in finding your way through those relationships to the possibility of something more satisfactory.  I think you need to internalise the concepts "clean break" and "not being the sort of dog that turns around and sniffs its own poo" (sorry if that's a bit graphic).

As for you "talking to other girls" while you were together for a year, I've got to admit I'm not up on current dating mores.  I understand that there can be an initial period of not being exclusive in a budding relationship.  I wouldn't have thought that should last for a year, though: at some point you need to decide either this is possibly going somewhere and should be exclusive or you decide it's not going anywhere and (depending on how you both feel) it should either end or turn into a "booty call" situation.  Again, you seem to have put off making this decision and just let the whole situation drift on in an unsatisfactory manner.  That's on you, but also partly on your girlfriend for not calling you out on it sooner - which makes me think that the two of you together are probably not a healthy dynamic, even if the poor woman didn't have the fallout from her abuser hanging over her.

And I agree with charis: talking to your ex's abuser's wife can have no good outcomes.  I'm not sure why you did it but whatever your reason it wasn't a good one.  Use this to learn where good boundaries (and good manners) in personal conduct are.

I absolutely agree. In my head I was physically and in person 100% exclusive but flirting with others on the side is emotionally cheating and It was not right at all for me to do. I don't know why I did looking back as it's just been a massive self sabatoge.

I called her because I wanted my GF to understand if she was being told the truth or not - and hopefully make a decision off that and who she trusts in the future. Also I wanted to know. Also fuck him - he's going to do it again and again.

We've been back together since november and have been as close/exclusive and it seems like it ebbs and flows from good times to screaming and crying and even talks about suicide and such - she's had a HARD life and it's just like - I feel love and responsibility and just so many things that I'm doing what I've always done - sacrifice whatever I can to make it work .

[zoochadookdook]

I think the reason I've accepted the why of why she didn't tell me is it makes sense.

We would not have gotten back together - it's selfish but it makes sense.

The actual being backed into a corner when your self worth and everything with a career had been impressed upon you by your abusive family from a young age along with a warped view of sex as a whole is also not lost on me. I understand what a power dynamic is and I think that's what I hope the most for her - that she can have a voice in the future and put herself first. I've seen this pattern before where she won't tell people off - she'll just avoid it. Even at chili's the other weekend - she went in to get change and the dude was hassling her and she told me how uncomfortable it was and just - I'm not a female so I don't understand but I wish I could help her.

[pbkmaine]

You can’t save her. This is work she needs to do herself. As everyone else has pointed out, you have some work you need to do, too. Neither one of you has the capacity right now to be in a mature, mutually loving relationship. You have to fix what’s broken first.

[Villanelle]

You are not responsible for her. 

You are not responsible for her.

She has been dealt multiple shitty hands in life.  Frankly, one of those was you. You emotionally cheated on someone who has low-self esteem and who is unable to set healthy boundaries about how she deserves to be treated.  Staying with you just reenforces that pattern.  As painful as it is for both of you, you being the one to set a firm line and say the relationship is 100% over, and to work to divest her from your life and vice versa (living together, working together) is a kindness to both of you.  From there, it is on her to either work to get herself healthy and well, or not. 

You are not responsible for her.  By breaking up with her, you free her from what is very clearly an unhealthy relationship on multiple levels.  Again, that is a kindness to her and gives her the blank slate she needs to get healthy.  IF she chooses that.  But that choice is hers to make, not yours, and not even yours to guide. 

And you need to come clean to your therapist.  I recommend printing this thread and reading your posts to the therapist.

[zoochadookdook]

You are not responsible for her. 

You are not responsible for her.

She has been dealt multiple shitty hands in life.  Frankly, one of those was you. You emotionally cheated on someone who has low-self esteem and who is unable to set healthy boundaries about how she deserves to be treated.  Staying with you just reenforces that pattern.  As painful as it is for both of you, you being the one to set a firm line and say the relationship is 100% over, and to work to divest her from your life and vice versa (living together, working together) is a kindness to both of you.  From there, it is on her to either work to get herself healthy and well, or not. 

You are not responsible for her.  By breaking up with her, you free her from what is very clearly an unhealthy relationship on multiple levels.  Again, that is a kindness to her and gives her the blank slate she needs to get healthy.  IF she chooses that.  But that choice is hers to make, not yours, and not even yours to guide. 

And you need to come clean to your therapist.  I recommend printing this thread and reading your posts to the therapist.

It's crazy we've actually talked about this. I'm one of the people that has hurt her - and I've been trying to understand if that's even recoverable.

I agree we both need help - I'm just worried about her - for several reasons. She has a tendency to self destruct and mix that with a poor family relation/low self esteem self worth/hard financial situation etc .....she's also got some serious depression and repressed memories of being abused and although I speak openly about her going to a therapist- her other one was not helpful at all (was trying to tell her she could work the system to get perscriptions wtf).

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

I admit that I didn't read everything from the updates, but I will say this:

When you are in a relationship that is actually good and has forever potential, you will NOT be on the Internet having angst about it.

If you are feeling stuck about breaking up with someone because you're worried about them, there is probably something helpful in the Captain Awkward archives.

[charis]

You have major boundaries issues with your GF. I understand why you wanted to called her boss's wife, but it's irrelevant.  It's not your place to get involved like that, period. If your GF wanted to call the wife, she could have, and it's not something you should do if she doesn't want or care enough to.

You need help - separately and independently of your GF.

[zoochadookdook]

You have major boundaries issues with your GF. I understand why you wanted to called her boss's wife, but it's irrelevant.  It's not your place to get involved like that, period. If your GF wanted to call the wife, she could have, and it's not something you should do if she doesn't want or care enough to.

You need help - separately and independently of your GF.

Semantics aside - I did it. Whether or not I was in the right or wrong will forever be up for debate.

The wife did thank me and said friends for years have lied to her about his actions and she recorded the conversation/screenshots so she could use them as proof for friends/family/her children if potentially they did seperate and he tried to delete her evidence again.

I was upset - I was hurt - I thought we were done and I wanted him to be exposed for once in his shitty manipulative life - I can absolutely live with doing that.

[charis]

You have major boundaries issues with your GF. I understand why you wanted to called her boss's wife, but it's irrelevant.  It's not your place to get involved like that, period. If your GF wanted to call the wife, she could have, and it's not something you should do if she doesn't want or care enough to.

You need help - separately and independently of your GF.

Semantics aside - I did it. Whether or not I was in the right or wrong will forever be up for debate.

The wife did thank me and said friends for years have lied to her about his actions and she recorded the conversation/screenshots so she could use them as proof for friends/family/her children if potentially they did seperate and he tried to delete her evidence again.

I was upset - I was hurt - I thought we were done and I wanted him to be exposed for once in his shitty manipulative life - I can absolutely live with doing that.

You are completely missing my point. It's not semantics. It's a huge giant flaming red flag for your boundary issues. It's like exhibit A in the proof of what you have so much drama in your life.  A reasoned person would see this dumpster fire of a situation and run quickly in the opposite direction.  You instead decided to dive into the dumpster.  You need to unpack the reason for this with a professional.

[zoochadookdook]

You have major boundaries issues with your GF. I understand why you wanted to called her boss's wife, but it's irrelevant.  It's not your place to get involved like that, period. If your GF wanted to call the wife, she could have, and it's not something you should do if she doesn't want or care enough to.

You need help - separately and independently of your GF.

Semantics aside - I did it. Whether or not I was in the right or wrong will forever be up for debate.

The wife did thank me and said friends for years have lied to her about his actions and she recorded the conversation/screenshots so she could use them as proof for friends/family/her children if potentially they did seperate and he tried to delete her evidence again.

I was upset - I was hurt - I thought we were done and I wanted him to be exposed for once in his shitty manipulative life - I can absolutely live with doing that.

You are completely missing my point. It's not semantics. It's a huge giant flaming red flag for your boundary issues. It's like exhibit A in the proof of what you have so much drama in your life.  A reasoned person would see this dumpster fire of a situation and run quickly in the opposite direction.  You instead decided to dive into the dumpster.  You need to unpack the reason for this with a professional.

The reason was I believed by exposing him - I could help her understand that this wasn't where she should stay/be in life. That's not healthy - but I guess people act a little crazy when they find out what they've been hiding under the repression for months is true. It's not on me to influence her life - but I guess I felt like it was considering we were together - I had been following her strict terms to try to rebuild trust for months (i.e cutting out my platonic ex formentioned in this thread completely - stopping going to my gyms etc) and I just felt like I was trying everything and that meant I had more sway in terms of everything.  Healthy? Nope - rational? sorta? End of the day we're still trying to make it work day to day

[Villanelle]

Did your GF know you were planning to expose him?  Did she agree to it?  Enthusiastically and without coercion on your part?

If the answer to any of those is 'no', then all you did was revictimize her and removed even more control in a situation that boils, in many ways, down to a painful lack of control.  Her boss controlled her for his sexual and possibly power-seeking needs.  She was not in control.  Then, you did the exact same thing, if she didn't know and agree in advance.

You became just another man in her life whose own needs were more important than hers, and who didn't care if she was hurt in the process.  You are another example of someone who basically used her for their own selfish reason--you wanted revenge on this guy, and you were hurt and were acting on your own pain.  At best, you made assumptions about what was best for her, then acted without her consent (again, IF she didn't agree, which isn't clear from your posts so far).  You stripped control from her in a situation where that was probably the worst thing you could do, or close to it.

You can frame it as "rational" and you can justify it all you want.  But it is another way you hurt her.  Another damage to an already ridiculously damaged relationship, another example of your horrible boundaries, and another reason the two of you need to part ways. 

It took 20 pages for you to break up with the last girlfriend, with basically the entire forum telling you to.  Are you going to repeat that pattern as well, just as you repeated so many of the other patterns from that relationship?  And when you finally do end this, are you going to repeat the pattern of just jumping into another relationship before you sort yourself out? 

If your therapist isn't helping you get better--if you aren't digging painfully deep and sharing the unvarnished truth with them--then you need a different one.

[Frankies Girl]

You moved too fast into another unhealthy intimate relationship. You were living together at 3 months? That is too soon, especially for people like you (and sounds like your girlfriend) that are prone to attachment/codependence issues.

You have major boundary issues too. You discovered her texts ON HER PHONE. You called the wife to tell her that your GF and the boss slept together? Both are major boundary violations/enmeshment.

Also, even if you take nothing else from this post: you can not change or fix anyone other than YOU. You can't save/repair/rescue/teach someone else how to be happy/healthy. The only person you can work on is yourself. What you've posted are classic signs of enmeshed/codependent behavior. And it's also sort of a block to you really digging into your own issues with attachment/relationships/need to feel needed/loved and gets all tangled up.

You need to work through your personal relationship/attachment issues and let your GF go to work on herself and separate without any aim to fix your relationship. Especially do not do this with the goal of fixing yourselves to stay together - your main/only goal should be heal and fix yourself. My own counselors told me: you may not end up desiring your current partner/type once you start getting healthy. I personally think you need to rein way back on entering any sort of a serious relationship until you get that stuff nailed down. (maybe check out the book "Codependent No More" for some ideas of what you're dealing with to discuss with a therapist?)




I am saying all of this without any judgement/criticism; just great sadness and sympathy for what you're likely feeling. Even a person that has trust issues due to whatever abuse/past/cheating... you can't go forward in a shared, stable relationship without trust in THEM.

Past trauma - and believe me, I have great empathy for people that have been through awful things - is not a "get out of jail free card" to keep acting poorly or making bad/impulsive/hurtful decisions. It's a reason why people do things that sometimes make no sense, but to continue to react in this manner is to let the in-pain/stunted/victim persona drive the car. You have to take responsibility for the hurt/trauma effects, and work on healing and growing past them. Some people never do, and those are the ones that keep hurting themselves and others and having difficulties all through their lives and never find real happiness and peace because they are stuck with that victim mentality in control.

[ysette9]

Do you have any examples of healthy relationships in your life? Reading through this makes me think you don’t. Good relationships don’t look anything like this. Not even a little bit. I can appreciate it is hard to find a create a healthy relationship when you don’t have a model to follow, which means you need to step back and not get into any relationship until you can do the work of identifying where your models went wrong and get new, healthy sources to learn from.

This is not good for you. She isn’t good for you. You can’t fix this currently because you aren’t healthy yourself. Please, please let her go and focus on yourself.

[six-car-habit]

Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
 Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts

Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that).  With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent.  Maybe she would have done it anyway.  But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed. 

So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him.  Whatevs.

 I never condoned any of the bosses predatory actions.  And the aspersions you say i cast towards GF  --were to point out to Zooch that she was making a conscious decision to engage in a sexual relationship with the Boss.  Not simply that she was browbeaten and humiliated and taken advantage of so much, that she decided to acquiesce and give in to his whims, regardless of the revulsion she should have felt.

  Zooches responses to mine and other posts  - helps confirm my suspicions.  Example  *" When we broke up officially right around her birthday is when he first moved in on her - basically he sent her a bday dinner or whatever and it turned flirty from there. She thought we weren't getting back together and of course Her Friends Were Like Live Your Best Life."      This is her thought pattern after being warned by Zooch and other acquaintances that Boss was bad news ! 

  If you want to be mad at an employer for bad behavior , { in addition to this 5 person company w/start-up CEO/ Boss} , you may as well include , if i recall correctly , where you receive most of your families' employment income.  The US Military / Dept ofDefense . Which has a Dismal record of repression, rejection, and harassment, both discriminatory and sexual -- toward minorities, women, homosexuals, and others over the past 100 years.
     If you'd like we can start another thread in off-topic, and i'll get it off to a bang with some great examples. Your husband probably gets a lot training about sexual harrassment [ mainly hetero ] from his job in the last few years being that it's finally out in the open in the military.


 Zooch - please point out to your GF that "success" does not have to include working for speculative " high dollar reward" companies.  For the 70 hour weeks she was working for $40K -  she could have worked 40 hour weeks at $19 an hour !     Our local grocery store is a large chain that pays $21/ hr to stock shelves at night.  They underwrite health insurance for employees also, and because they are a large company with shareholders, they have to have proactive policies that should stifle sexual harrassment.  She could be in management there at $30/hr within a few years, with predictability and security in her job...

[Villanelle]

Or maybe she just didn't want to admit she slept with someone else during the 4 weeks they were broken up.
 Or maybe she was staying quiet so she could still go on the cruise with Zooch.
Or maybe Villanelle, you are completely correct, and the trauma of the harrasment would have stayed her secret shame forever - if Zoooch had not found the texts

Again, you demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of how power dynamics play into sexual relationships in the workplace, among non-peers. Zooch himself said she did this to keep her job (I notice you ignored my quotes that completely show your incorrect assumption that he never said that).  With that on the table, there can never be full, informed, clean consent.  Maybe she would have done it anyway.  But she did it with the perception that her job on the line, in this particular case, unless the OP himself is for some reason not to be believed. 

So you can continue to cast aspersions at a woman who was faced with the possibility (at least perceived) of losing her job, or screwing her boss who was aggressively and inappropriately pushing her to have a relationship with him.  Whatevs.

 I never condoned any of the bosses predatory actions.  And the aspersions you say i cast towards GF  --were to point out to Zooch that she was making a conscious decision to engage in a sexual relationship with the Boss.  Not simply that she was browbeaten and humiliated and taken advantage of so much, that she decided to acquiesce and give in to his whims, regardless of the revulsion she should have felt.

  Zooches responses to mine and other posts  - helps confirm my suspicions.  Example  *" When we broke up officially right around her birthday is when he first moved in on her - basically he sent her a bday dinner or whatever and it turned flirty from there. She thought we weren't getting back together and of course Her Friends Were Like Live Your Best Life."      This is her thought pattern after being warned by Zooch and other acquaintances that Boss was bad news ! 

  If you want to be mad at an employer for bad behavior , { in addition to this 5 person company w/start-up CEO/ Boss} , you may as well include , if i recall correctly , where you receive most of your families' employment income.  The US Military / Dept ofDefense . Which has a Dismal record of repression, rejection, and harassment, both discriminatory and sexual -- toward minorities, women, homosexuals, and others over the past 100 years.
     If you'd like we can start another thread in off-topic, and i'll get it off to a bang with some great examples. Your husband probably gets a lot training about sexual harrassment [ mainly hetero ] from his job in the last few years being that it's finally out in the open in the military.


 Zooch - please point out to your GF that "success" does not have to include working for speculative " high dollar reward" companies.  For the 70 hour weeks she was working for $40K -  she could have worked 40 hour weeks at $19 an hour !     Our local grocery store is a large chain that pays $21/ hr to stock shelves at night.  They underwrite health insurance for employees also, and because they are a large company with shareholders, they have to have proactive policies that should stifle sexual harrassment.  She could be in management there at $30/hr within a few years, with predictability and security in her job...

How does the military's record on these issue have any relevance to the boss being totally inappropriate, and you basically castigating the woman who was victimized?  Even the military would fire someone--quickly--if it was found the hit on or slept with someone junior to them.  Because that's predatory behavior.  The military being bad at this issue has fuck-all to do with you insulting this woman who was victimized by her boss.  You refuse to acknowledge that this wasn't a choice she made freely, rather than one she made in fear of her job.  You say she was probably "horny", "willing to trade sex for promotion" or is "attracted to boss", When he himself said she was trying to keep her job.  (You still have acknowledged that you were flat out incorrect when you said he never said that.  Maybe because it doesn't fit your narrative of her being a horny woman willing to trade sexual favors for promotion?)  You paint an horrible, insulting picture of her, when she was preyed upon by her boss.

It;s gross.  And a deflection about how the military handles these issues is entirely irrelevant.  You are the one treating the victim terrible.  If the military powers that be spoke about a victim of sexual harassment like you spoke about this woman, there would be a crazy amount of outcry, and rightfully so.  Because it is gross, and totally misses the way power imbalance plays into sexual harassment. 

[Poundwise]

You moved too fast into another unhealthy intimate relationship. You were living together at 3 months? That is too soon, especially for people like you (and sounds like your girlfriend) that are prone to attachment/codependence issues.

You have major boundary issues too. You discovered her texts ON HER PHONE. You called the wife to tell her that your GF and the boss slept together? Both are major boundary violations/enmeshment.

This.

zooch, I think you want to see yourself as the best thing that ever happened to your GF. Her knight in shining armor. You haven't physically abused her or cheated on her, etc. You want the best for her. And you might, in fact, be the best thing that ever happened to her.

But, the bar has to be set higher. In a healthy relationship, people aren't snooping on each other OR hiding big things from each other. My suggestion would be that you disentangle your lives... make the moves to stop living together.  Start working on yourselves. 

Even if you care for a woman and hope that she thrives, you don't have to share your life with her. If you're concerned she has suffered financially because she quit her old job, and feel that it was somehow your fault, you can do something to help her to be financially independent as she leaves (move out but pay half her rent for a couple of months, etc.) But you don't have to take responsibility for her or fix her. Only she can do that. It will just hurt the both of you to cling.

Here's a great website that I usually recommend... has lots of practical advice for married people to stay married, but there is also some good advice in choosing a partner:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/choosing-the-right-one-to-marry-2.htm

[iris lily]

I agree with Charis and .Frankie’s Girl:

Too much drama in your relationships, .zooch…you move too fast without real knowledge and intimacy into these situations.

I don’t see any point in commenting further on more of your romantic trials and tribulations.  Start your next dating relationship with DATING.  For a year or two. That doesn’t mean moving in together. That doesn’t mean exclusivity, especially in the first few months.

I mean just have some dates. Have some fun. Get to know a girl or several girls. That’s not cheating. That’s just reasonable casual dating and not putting all your eggs in one basket.

[zoochadookdook]

Did your GF know you were planning to expose him?  Did she agree to it?  Enthusiastically and without coercion on your part?

If the answer to any of those is 'no', then all you did was revictimize her and removed even more control in a situation that boils, in many ways, down to a painful lack of control.  Her boss controlled her for his sexual and possibly power-seeking needs.  She was not in control.  Then, you did the exact same thing, if she didn't know and agree in advance.

You became just another man in her life whose own needs were more important than hers, and who didn't care if she was hurt in the process.  You are another example of someone who basically used her for their own selfish reason--you wanted revenge on this guy, and you were hurt and were acting on your own pain.  At best, you made assumptions about what was best for her, then acted without her consent (again, IF she didn't agree, which isn't clear from your posts so far).  You stripped control from her in a situation where that was probably the worst thing you could do, or close to it.

You can frame it as "rational" and you can justify it all you want.  But it is another way you hurt her.  Another damage to an already ridiculously damaged relationship, another example of your horrible boundaries, and another reason the two of you need to part ways. 

It took 20 pages for you to break up with the last girlfriend, with basically the entire forum telling you to.  Are you going to repeat that pattern as well, just as you repeated so many of the other patterns from that relationship?  And when you finally do end this, are you going to repeat the pattern of just jumping into another relationship before you sort yourself out? 

If your therapist isn't helping you get better--if you aren't digging painfully deep and sharing the unvarnished truth with them--then you need a different one.

She absolutely knew I was going to - she wanted me to wait/was under the impression it would tarnish her reputation amongst other employers (I guess he had threatened she had to lie and he was going to sue me for slander and whatever the hell else when I texted him saying he could come clean to his wife or I would). Me assuming what was in her best interest may not have been merit for the action but I can live with her understanding how people can be - even if it's to our own relational detriment. I just knew without actually knowing the true story and such I - well I wanted that for closure and to see if we could move on or whatnot from it. I understand much better the predicament she was in and the lies and bs she was fed by a predatory sociopath and I guess that's what it boiled down to.

[zoochadookdook]

Let me preface this a bit with saying I appreciate any and every response-

1) I'm aware I have some kind of massive attachment/entanglement issues. I don't know if I fear being alone - I care deeply about my partners well being and in both this and my prior relationship -> I've almost felt an obligation to be there for them no matter what. I still care about my prior ex probably too much.

2) I'm aware of how big an impact this is having on my life. I have cut out even close friends and live my life around our schedule/planning/whatever as well as building this business with her and pretty much anything from athletics to other things I enjoy have just taken a backseat. I'm currently uneasy and thinking of this or that in regards to the issues between us. Just last night she saw a picture in a group chat with the dog rescue and asked who else I sent that too as she hadn't seen it. She assumed I had sent it to other people and was upset - even going back to when i had sent my ex some gifts over a year ago for her birthday and talking about how she could never fit that standard. That made me want to last out and say how I felt about seeing pictures of her when I knew she was talking to boss/5 other individuals whilst we were apart - which I refrained from as it's just going in circles voicing both of our hurt.

3) we have lived together since november - not because she doesn't have her own place but because we don't have the healthy trust to spend apart - crazy huh? Even talking about going to the gym she wants to come with me as she suspects i've had a relationship with some/any of the girls in there. She has not gotten over things I've done to hurt her previously and has said the only way to do that is to go with me and involve herself.

4) This is hard. We don't fight or argue it's more just statements of hurt at this point but i feel like we're both still uneasy and quick to let our emotions and thoughts run wild. At the same time we assure eachother we love one another and she's even planned a trip late may for my birthday/we spend most free time together. It's just like there's a cloud of unease and it's so hard to stay positive and happy. She's also had suicidal rate depression and such which has surfaced twice - once when I first found out and later during another argument.

5) This is not sustainable. I understand this is so controlling of my life and I just wish there was a path we could forgo all the other feelings and hurt and such that have gone back and forth. I hate the fact that I started this and fell into this and then didn't treat it correctly. I need for sure to work on myself but I'm so worried about her and herself and it's just crazy to say.

6)Our lives are entertwined in ways that makes it harder - we work together weekends at the startup. Her animals/she has moved stuff to my apartment. We have plans every weekend going forward and try to ingrain everything. My emotions also make it hard to understand dating/imagine it/trying to view myself as an individual if I ever make a decision to seperate and stick to it. Every time prior it's been being apart "hoping to be better for eachother in the future". I just don't have this ability at 29 to be able to cut people out and I have this caring or whatever complex and it's a lot.

[former player]

Zooch, this is not a healthy relationship for either of you.  It is certainly not love, and it is no way for either of you to live.  There are a lot of red flags in this woman's behaviour to you.  I know that you see her as someone who has been hurt in life and are unwilling to hurt her yourself by ending the relationship between you.  But it is not uncommon for someone who is emotionally and psychologically damaged to apply the behaviours they have been on the receiving end of to other people, and I fear that this is what is happening to you.

If I heard of a woman whose partner had cut her off from her friends, her sports and her hobbies, who checks her phone messages and wants to know who she is messaging, who has moved into her home with her belongings and pets despite having their own place because they don't trust her behaviour if they are not with her every minute, who won't let her go to the gym on her own, I would be saying "This is coersive control.  This person is isolating her from friends and family.  They are monitoring her time.  They are monitoring her electronic communications.  They are controlling what she does with her time, where she goes, who she sees, what she does.  Those are all aspects of coersive control."   And in fact it is no different because you are a man and it is a woman practising these coersive control techniques on you.  Let me blunt: this woman is abusive towards you, and she is using all the bad things that have happened to her to emotionally manipulate you into submitting to that coersive control.

Letting this carry on any longer is doing neither of you a service.  In particular, by letting this woman think that her coersive control techniques will get her want she wants you are not only enabling her bad behaviour but actively preventing her from learning how to be an independent adult in a healthy relationship.  Putting an end to this situation, and encouraging her to get therapy/mental health treatment is the best possible thing you can do for her.

You need to cut her out of your life.  She, her pets and her belongings need to get out of your home and back to her own place.  The startup either needs to do without one or other of you or schedule you to work at different times.  You need to stop meeting her, or answering the phone to her, or having any other communication with her.  You need to stop telling her the lie that you love her, you clearly don't and there is no reason why you should.

It is possible that she will threaten suicide if you end the relationship, either directly saying so or just implying it.  That would be a despicable form of emotional blackmail and you need to stand up to it.  She is an adult human being who is responsible for her own life and it would be entirely wrong of her to try to take your life hostage to her threats.  And any such threat would of course be further evidence that you are being subjected to her coersive control.

[ysette9]

100% agree with ^^. These are massive red flags and you need to get out of this, yesterday.

[Tyson]

Usually a clean break is the kindest thing you can do for the other person.

[BicycleB]

Let me preface this a bit with saying I appreciate any and every response-

1) I'm aware I have some kind of massive attachment/entanglement issues. I don't know if I fear being alone - I care deeply about my partners well being and in both this and my prior relationship -> I've almost felt an obligation to be there for them no matter what. I still care about my prior ex probably too much.

2) I'm aware of how big an impact this is having on my life. I have cut out even close friends and live my life around our schedule/planning/whatever as well as building this business with her and pretty much anything from athletics to other things I enjoy have just taken a backseat. I'm currently uneasy and thinking of this or that in regards to the issues between us. Just last night she saw a picture in a group chat with the dog rescue and asked who else I sent that too as she hadn't seen it. She assumed I had sent it to other people and was upset - even going back to when i had sent my ex some gifts over a year ago for her birthday and talking about how she could never fit that standard. That made me want to last out and say how I felt about seeing pictures of her when I knew she was talking to boss/5 other individuals whilst we were apart - which I refrained from as it's just going in circles voicing both of our hurt.

3) we have lived together since november - not because she doesn't have her own place but because we don't have the healthy trust to spend apart - crazy huh? Even talking about going to the gym she wants to come with me as she suspects i've had a relationship with some/any of the girls in there. She has not gotten over things I've done to hurt her previously and has said the only way to do that is to go with me and involve herself.

4) This is hard. We don't fight or argue it's more just statements of hurt at this point but i feel like we're both still uneasy and quick to let our emotions and thoughts run wild. At the same time we assure eachother we love one another and she's even planned a trip late may for my birthday/we spend most free time together. It's just like there's a cloud of unease and it's so hard to stay positive and happy. She's also had suicidal rate depression and such which has surfaced twice - once when I first found out and later during another argument.

5) This is not sustainable. I understand this is so controlling of my life and I just wish there was a path we could forgo all the other feelings and hurt and such that have gone back and forth. I hate the fact that I started this and fell into this and then didn't treat it correctly. I need for sure to work on myself but I'm so worried about her and herself and it's just crazy to say.

6)Our lives are entertwined in ways that makes it harder - we work together weekends at the startup. Her animals/she has moved stuff to my apartment. We have plans every weekend going forward and try to ingrain everything. My emotions also make it hard to understand dating/imagine it/trying to view myself as an individual if I ever make a decision to seperate and stick to it. Every time prior it's been being apart "hoping to be better for eachother in the future". I just don't have this ability at 29 to be able to cut people out and I have this caring or whatever complex and it's a lot.

^ Great insight above!

Get counseling, regardless of all other decisions you make. You need to invest in solutions and that's the one that guaranteed to be necessary. "It" really IS a lot; you need support for a while that is professional.

Just start finding a counselor, scheduling appointments, and going.