Author Topic: 5G conspiracy theories  (Read 25159 times)

OzzieandHarriet

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5G conspiracy theories
« on: March 28, 2021, 04:09:17 PM »
What do you all think of this? It seems like fluoride-in-the-water nonsense to me. Am I wrong?

Many articles out there about this - e.g.:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/05/great-5g-conspiracy/611317/

Someone on our neighborhood listserv posted some alarmist shit the other day and got very offended when several of us questioned its validity.

With the many actual things to be worried about, WTF.

scottish

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2021, 07:10:52 PM »
I think a sunburn is considerably more dangerous than a phone with 20 dBm output power...     but you can always use earbuds if you want to keep the phone away from your head.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2021, 08:40:38 PM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

dang1

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2021, 09:14:41 PM »
"Someone" - otoh, the listserv is also a way to figure out who the morons are in the neighborhood

cool7hand

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2021, 05:07:03 AM »
More nonsense courtesy of: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224.

Greystache

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2021, 08:45:07 AM »
The people who fear electromagnetic radiation are the same people who don't understand the inverse square law. Just another consequence of the poor quality of science education in this country.

GuitarStv

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2021, 08:53:36 AM »
Meh.  I don't care.  Cellphones are bad for you for a variety of behavioural reasons unrelated to electromagnetic signals, and I don't use them as a general rule.

Luke Warm

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2021, 08:23:36 AM »
remember when we were supposed to sit at least 6' from the tv for fear of ruining our eyes? my monitor is about 18" away from my eyes for about 8 hours per day and there aint nuthin wrong with me.

gooki

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2021, 12:02:58 AM »
Are you still using a cathode ray tube monitor? Or are you in the 21st century now using a LCD monitor?

gooki

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2021, 12:05:33 AM »
Back on topic. Our city council is replacing the street lamps with LEDs down or street. In the info pamphlet they explicitly call out that the LEDs do not contain any 5g technology.

I had to chuckle. They must have had a few concerned callers in the past to put that in print.

scottish

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2021, 05:29:59 PM »
Here's what you all need.   Anti-radiation underwear!    Keep 5g away from your sex life.

https://www.amazon.com/LVFEIER-Radiation-Resistant-Underwear-XXXLarge/dp/B07G97VT47

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2021, 07:34:05 PM »
Here's what you all need.   Anti-radiation underwear!    Keep 5g away from your sex life.

https://www.amazon.com/LVFEIER-Radiation-Resistant-Underwear-XXXLarge/dp/B07G97VT47

For $98 😮

OtherJen

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2021, 05:00:26 AM »
Here's what you all need.   Anti-radiation underwear!    Keep 5g away from your sex life.

https://www.amazon.com/LVFEIER-Radiation-Resistant-Underwear-XXXLarge/dp/B07G97VT47

For $98 😮

To quote P.T. Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Metalcat

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2021, 05:20:07 AM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

This sounds good on the surface, but I'm not buying it since plenty of people with God-filled holes tend to believe this crap.

People have always responded to conspiracy theories. The difference now is that conspiracists have better access to people than they ever have before, and therefore there is a much bigger machine investing in perpetuating them.

Also, globally religion isn't in decline, the percentage of the population that defines itself as religiously unaffiliated is actually shrinking.

YYK

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2021, 10:08:57 AM »
The people who fear electromagnetic radiation are the same people who don't understand the inverse square law. Just another consequence of the poor quality of science education in this country.

I think before that the even more important distinction between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation is totally lost on a lot of people.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2021, 07:06:20 PM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

This sounds good on the surface, but I'm not buying it since plenty of people with God-filled holes tend to believe this crap.

People have always responded to conspiracy theories. The difference now is that conspiracists have better access to people than they ever have before, and therefore there is a much bigger machine investing in perpetuating them.

Also, globally religion isn't in decline, the percentage of the population that defines itself as religiously unaffiliated is actually shrinking.
I don't think we (yet) have the same sort of problem globally as in the West, and in particular, in the US. The West is where the most Extremely Online people can be found exposing themselves to various ideologies that have been weaponized through Darwinian selection. To a growing extent, the rest of the world is not far behind--perhaps a decade. And while it may be true that religious affiliation is increasing globally, it is decreasing in the US. Conducting a study on the relationship between religion and other ideologies would require some careful work to disentangle the causal factors at play. Discarding this hypothesis leaves the rest of my point intact, however.

I completely agree with your point that the potential for incorrect ideas has always existed and what has changed is the scale at which such spread can occur (was it Stalin who said: Quantity has a quality all its own?). Prior to social media, those pockets of insanity would be--usually--self-limiting in their scope (a notable exception being the major religions which have co-evolved with our institutions for 50-100 generations). The advent of newspapers and mass media started the process allowing a much faster uncontrolled spread of ideas. And today, perhaps a tipping point has been reached where the ease and speed at which ideas can spread can overwhelm our native ability to perform error correction at an individual or societal level. A nuclear bomb is just a warm lump of metal until compressed beyond the critical mass.

Metalcat

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2021, 07:20:41 PM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

This sounds good on the surface, but I'm not buying it since plenty of people with God-filled holes tend to believe this crap.

People have always responded to conspiracy theories. The difference now is that conspiracists have better access to people than they ever have before, and therefore there is a much bigger machine investing in perpetuating them.

Also, globally religion isn't in decline, the percentage of the population that defines itself as religiously unaffiliated is actually shrinking.
I don't think we (yet) have the same sort of problem globally as in the West, and in particular, in the US. The West is where the most Extremely Online people can be found exposing themselves to various ideologies that have been weaponized through Darwinian selection. To a growing extent, the rest of the world is not far behind--perhaps a decade. And while it may be true that religious affiliation is increasing globally, it is decreasing in the US. Conducting a study on the relationship between religion and other ideologies would require some careful work to disentangle the causal factors at play. Discarding this hypothesis leaves the rest of my point intact, however.

I completely agree with your point that the potential for incorrect ideas has always existed and what has changed is the scale at which such spread can occur (was it Stalin who said: Quantity has a quality all its own?). Prior to social media, those pockets of insanity would be--usually--self-limiting in their scope (a notable exception being the major religions which have co-evolved with our institutions for 50-100 generations). The advent of newspapers and mass media started the process allowing a much faster uncontrolled spread of ideas. And today, perhaps a tipping point has been reached where the ease and speed at which ideas can spread can overwhelm our native ability to perform error correction at an individual or societal level. A nuclear bomb is just a warm lump of metal until compressed beyond the critical mass.

Are you saying that the US has a higher proportion of people falling for Internet conspiracies than elsewhere in the world? I would have to see data on that.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2021, 07:36:34 PM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

This sounds good on the surface, but I'm not buying it since plenty of people with God-filled holes tend to believe this crap.

People have always responded to conspiracy theories. The difference now is that conspiracists have better access to people than they ever have before, and therefore there is a much bigger machine investing in perpetuating them.

Also, globally religion isn't in decline, the percentage of the population that defines itself as religiously unaffiliated is actually shrinking.
I don't think we (yet) have the same sort of problem globally as in the West, and in particular, in the US. The West is where the most Extremely Online people can be found exposing themselves to various ideologies that have been weaponized through Darwinian selection. To a growing extent, the rest of the world is not far behind--perhaps a decade. And while it may be true that religious affiliation is increasing globally, it is decreasing in the US. Conducting a study on the relationship between religion and other ideologies would require some careful work to disentangle the causal factors at play. Discarding this hypothesis leaves the rest of my point intact, however.

I completely agree with your point that the potential for incorrect ideas has always existed and what has changed is the scale at which such spread can occur (was it Stalin who said: Quantity has a quality all its own?). Prior to social media, those pockets of insanity would be--usually--self-limiting in their scope (a notable exception being the major religions which have co-evolved with our institutions for 50-100 generations). The advent of newspapers and mass media started the process allowing a much faster uncontrolled spread of ideas. And today, perhaps a tipping point has been reached where the ease and speed at which ideas can spread can overwhelm our native ability to perform error correction at an individual or societal level. A nuclear bomb is just a warm lump of metal until compressed beyond the critical mass.

Are you saying that the US has a higher proportion of people falling for Internet conspiracies than elsewhere in the world? I would have to see data on that.
It's a bit of a prediction--I doubt there is good data on this, but who knows? Societal wealth should correlate with the absolute amount of time spent on social media, and therefore the amount of exposures to potentially virulent memes. A subsistence farmer in Cameroon is probably not getting (as) worked up over what he just saw on twitter as the typical WEIRD person.

Metalcat

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2021, 07:45:47 PM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

This sounds good on the surface, but I'm not buying it since plenty of people with God-filled holes tend to believe this crap.

People have always responded to conspiracy theories. The difference now is that conspiracists have better access to people than they ever have before, and therefore there is a much bigger machine investing in perpetuating them.

Also, globally religion isn't in decline, the percentage of the population that defines itself as religiously unaffiliated is actually shrinking.
I don't think we (yet) have the same sort of problem globally as in the West, and in particular, in the US. The West is where the most Extremely Online people can be found exposing themselves to various ideologies that have been weaponized through Darwinian selection. To a growing extent, the rest of the world is not far behind--perhaps a decade. And while it may be true that religious affiliation is increasing globally, it is decreasing in the US. Conducting a study on the relationship between religion and other ideologies would require some careful work to disentangle the causal factors at play. Discarding this hypothesis leaves the rest of my point intact, however.

I completely agree with your point that the potential for incorrect ideas has always existed and what has changed is the scale at which such spread can occur (was it Stalin who said: Quantity has a quality all its own?). Prior to social media, those pockets of insanity would be--usually--self-limiting in their scope (a notable exception being the major religions which have co-evolved with our institutions for 50-100 generations). The advent of newspapers and mass media started the process allowing a much faster uncontrolled spread of ideas. And today, perhaps a tipping point has been reached where the ease and speed at which ideas can spread can overwhelm our native ability to perform error correction at an individual or societal level. A nuclear bomb is just a warm lump of metal until compressed beyond the critical mass.

Are you saying that the US has a higher proportion of people falling for Internet conspiracies than elsewhere in the world? I would have to see data on that.
It's a bit of a prediction--I doubt there is good data on this, but who knows? Societal wealth should correlate with the absolute amount of time spent on social media, and therefore the amount of exposures to potentially virulent memes. A subsistence farmer in Cameroon is probably not getting (as) worked up over what he just saw on twitter as the typical WEIRD person.

Okay...but there are plenty of countries where religion is growing where people are on social media. So I'm not sure that correlation holds.

I'm also not convinced that there's a linear correlation of wealth and social media, but more of a threshold level of wealth. If that was the case then poorer states/regions in the US would have less social media involvement and as far as I know, that isn't the case.

So I'm still not buying the atheism/agnosticism correlation with consumption of conspiracy theories as a replacement for God. If anything, I've seen much more of an atheist/agnostic replacement of religion with the social construct of science.

GuitarStv

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2021, 02:46:19 AM »
Religion is the original conspiracy theory.

PSSSST!  Wanna know the one true path to salvation kid?  All you gotta do is believe this stuff I tell you that absolutely can't be verified, or is outright contradicted by observable reality.  An' if you don't believe, you gonna burn!

:P

rosarugosa

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2021, 03:31:06 AM »
Religion is the original conspiracy theory.

PSSSST!  Wanna know the one true path to salvation kid?  All you gotta do is believe this stuff I tell you that absolutely can't be verified, or is outright contradicted by observable reality.  An' if you don't believe, you gonna burn!

:P

Yes!

Kris

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2021, 06:48:11 AM »
Most of the people I have come into contact with (all, actually) who believe the 5G conspiracy theories are also very vocal evangelical style Christians. Make of that what you will.

Luke Warm

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2021, 06:57:09 AM »
i'm pretty sure that the nanobots in the covid vaccines require 5g to do their thing.

bacchi

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2021, 10:04:22 AM »
i'm pretty sure that the nanobots in the covid vaccines require 5g to do their thing.

My partner got the first vaccine shot and then a Microsoft van was outside the house the next day. Coincidence? I think not.

I should add that we're going to buy a Windows laptop because Windows 10 is much better than Cats.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 10:05:55 AM by bacchi »

Kris

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2021, 10:07:47 AM »
5G is just a diversion.

Something for all you sheeple to worry about, while still believing that birds are real.

https://www.audubon.org/news/are-birds-actually-government-issued-drones-so-says-new-conspiracy-theory-making

I started seeing "Birds aren't real" stickers up in my neighborhood a few months ago, with a website. I went back home and looked it up, to find it was a merchandise site. Pretty original marketing idea.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2021, 10:12:25 AM »
Religion is the original conspiracy theory.

PSSSST!  Wanna know the one true path to salvation kid?  All you gotta do is believe this stuff I tell you that absolutely can't be verified, or is outright contradicted by observable reality.  An' if you don't believe, you gonna burn!

:P
Yep, certainly seems to set the stage and I am no fan of supernatural mottos printed on my cash but I am probably the minority opinion on that.

GuitarStv

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2021, 03:00:54 PM »
Religion is the original conspiracy theory.

PSSSST!  Wanna know the one true path to salvation kid?  All you gotta do is believe this stuff I tell you that absolutely can't be verified, or is outright contradicted by observable reality.  An' if you don't believe, you gonna burn!

:P
Yep, certainly seems to set the stage and I am no fan of supernatural mottos printed on my cash but I am probably the minority opinion on that.

Yeah . . . but gotta have something there.  If they printed 'In science we trust' that would be a verifiable lie.  Look at the US response to covid.  :P

Luke Warm

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2021, 06:17:45 AM »
i'm pretty sure that the nanobots in the covid vaccines require 5g to do their thing.

My partner got the first vaccine shot and then a Microsoft van was outside the house the next day. Coincidence? I think not.

I should add that we're going to buy a Windows laptop because Windows 10 is much better than Cats.

i wonder if amazon is in on it. i see their vans all the time on my street.

Metalcat

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2021, 06:28:36 AM »
i'm pretty sure that the nanobots in the covid vaccines require 5g to do their thing.

My partner got the first vaccine shot and then a Microsoft van was outside the house the next day. Coincidence? I think not.

I should add that we're going to buy a Windows laptop because Windows 10 is much better than Cats.

i wonder if amazon is in on it. i see their vans all the time on my street.

Holy shit! I do too!!!

And I just got an email that my vaccine appointment is coming up soon, the very same day that Amazon delivered a package to me...I mean, I'm not one to buy into conspiracies, but this is getting creepy.

ObviouslyNotAGolfer

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2021, 03:46:55 PM »
I hope you guys are as concerned as I am about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide--especially in chemtrails!!

I'm also really worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow!

RetiredAt63

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2021, 03:52:04 PM »
I hope you guys are as concerned as I am about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide--especially in chemtrails!!

I'm also really worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow!

Tell us more about the Heathrow baggage retrieval system.  WE NEED TO KNOW!!!!!

MilesTeg

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2021, 04:05:18 PM »
What do you all think of this? It seems like fluoride-in-the-water nonsense to me. Am I wrong?

Many articles out there about this - e.g.:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/05/great-5g-conspiracy/611317/

Someone on our neighborhood listserv posted some alarmist shit the other day and got very offended when several of us questioned its validity.

With the many actual things to be worried about, WTF.

We have been blasting large amounts of EM radiation through our cities and towns for over 100 years. 5G is no different than all those other sources (TV, Radio, Satellite, etc.); It's just a different frequency. Not to mention the much, much higher power natural sources that we are exposed to every day, everything from the sun to the microwave background radiation that's been with us since literally the very beginning of time.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2021, 04:53:05 PM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

This sounds good on the surface, but I'm not buying it since plenty of people with God-filled holes tend to believe this crap.

People have always responded to conspiracy theories. The difference now is that conspiracists have better access to people than they ever have before, and therefore there is a much bigger machine investing in perpetuating them.

Also, globally religion isn't in decline, the percentage of the population that defines itself as religiously unaffiliated is actually shrinking.
I don't think we (yet) have the same sort of problem globally as in the West, and in particular, in the US. The West is where the most Extremely Online people can be found exposing themselves to various ideologies that have been weaponized through Darwinian selection. To a growing extent, the rest of the world is not far behind--perhaps a decade. And while it may be true that religious affiliation is increasing globally, it is decreasing in the US. Conducting a study on the relationship between religion and other ideologies would require some careful work to disentangle the causal factors at play. Discarding this hypothesis leaves the rest of my point intact, however.

I completely agree with your point that the potential for incorrect ideas has always existed and what has changed is the scale at which such spread can occur (was it Stalin who said: Quantity has a quality all its own?). Prior to social media, those pockets of insanity would be--usually--self-limiting in their scope (a notable exception being the major religions which have co-evolved with our institutions for 50-100 generations). The advent of newspapers and mass media started the process allowing a much faster uncontrolled spread of ideas. And today, perhaps a tipping point has been reached where the ease and speed at which ideas can spread can overwhelm our native ability to perform error correction at an individual or societal level. A nuclear bomb is just a warm lump of metal until compressed beyond the critical mass.

Are you saying that the US has a higher proportion of people falling for Internet conspiracies than elsewhere in the world? I would have to see data on that.
It's a bit of a prediction--I doubt there is good data on this, but who knows? Societal wealth should correlate with the absolute amount of time spent on social media, and therefore the amount of exposures to potentially virulent memes. A subsistence farmer in Cameroon is probably not getting (as) worked up over what he just saw on twitter as the typical WEIRD person.

Okay...but there are plenty of countries where religion is growing where people are on social media. So I'm not sure that correlation holds.

I'm also not convinced that there's a linear correlation of wealth and social media, but more of a threshold level of wealth. If that was the case then poorer states/regions in the US would have less social media involvement and as far as I know, that isn't the case.

So I'm still not buying the atheism/agnosticism correlation with consumption of conspiracy theories as a replacement for God. If anything, I've seen much more of an atheist/agnostic replacement of religion with the social construct of science.
Again, I think you are putting too much weight in the dependence of the argument on the second point about the potential adaptive benefit of religion. I just put it there as a barb against the New Atheist school of thought, which outright dismisses the possibility that religion plays any sort of positive role in human affairs.

The social media thing might well be wrong too--we had the Arab Spring over a self-immolated fruit merchant, a string of lynchings in India over Facebook garbage, and the Royhinga genocide over more Facebook wankery. Facebook is known to have done A/B testing (and possibly much more) regarding interaction with its platform, so my best guess is the best hard-data on these effects takes the form of proprietary secrets... So perhaps the penetration of bad memes is already critical even in less wealthy locales. Regardless, the underlying problem exists--that of the insidious Darwinian adaptation of memes (not to mention the role of incomprehensible algorithms on what information people are increasingly presented with).

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
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  • Posts: 20537
Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2021, 06:32:18 PM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

This sounds good on the surface, but I'm not buying it since plenty of people with God-filled holes tend to believe this crap.

People have always responded to conspiracy theories. The difference now is that conspiracists have better access to people than they ever have before, and therefore there is a much bigger machine investing in perpetuating them.

Also, globally religion isn't in decline, the percentage of the population that defines itself as religiously unaffiliated is actually shrinking.
I don't think we (yet) have the same sort of problem globally as in the West, and in particular, in the US. The West is where the most Extremely Online people can be found exposing themselves to various ideologies that have been weaponized through Darwinian selection. To a growing extent, the rest of the world is not far behind--perhaps a decade. And while it may be true that religious affiliation is increasing globally, it is decreasing in the US. Conducting a study on the relationship between religion and other ideologies would require some careful work to disentangle the causal factors at play. Discarding this hypothesis leaves the rest of my point intact, however.

I completely agree with your point that the potential for incorrect ideas has always existed and what has changed is the scale at which such spread can occur (was it Stalin who said: Quantity has a quality all its own?). Prior to social media, those pockets of insanity would be--usually--self-limiting in their scope (a notable exception being the major religions which have co-evolved with our institutions for 50-100 generations). The advent of newspapers and mass media started the process allowing a much faster uncontrolled spread of ideas. And today, perhaps a tipping point has been reached where the ease and speed at which ideas can spread can overwhelm our native ability to perform error correction at an individual or societal level. A nuclear bomb is just a warm lump of metal until compressed beyond the critical mass.

Are you saying that the US has a higher proportion of people falling for Internet conspiracies than elsewhere in the world? I would have to see data on that.
It's a bit of a prediction--I doubt there is good data on this, but who knows? Societal wealth should correlate with the absolute amount of time spent on social media, and therefore the amount of exposures to potentially virulent memes. A subsistence farmer in Cameroon is probably not getting (as) worked up over what he just saw on twitter as the typical WEIRD person.

Okay...but there are plenty of countries where religion is growing where people are on social media. So I'm not sure that correlation holds.

I'm also not convinced that there's a linear correlation of wealth and social media, but more of a threshold level of wealth. If that was the case then poorer states/regions in the US would have less social media involvement and as far as I know, that isn't the case.

So I'm still not buying the atheism/agnosticism correlation with consumption of conspiracy theories as a replacement for God. If anything, I've seen much more of an atheist/agnostic replacement of religion with the social construct of science.
Again, I think you are putting too much weight in the dependence of the argument on the second point about the potential adaptive benefit of religion. I just put it there as a barb against the New Atheist school of thought, which outright dismisses the possibility that religion plays any sort of positive role in human affairs.

The social media thing might well be wrong too--we had the Arab Spring over a self-immolated fruit merchant, a string of lynchings in India over Facebook garbage, and the Royhinga genocide over more Facebook wankery. Facebook is known to have done A/B testing (and possibly much more) regarding interaction with its platform, so my best guess is the best hard-data on these effects takes the form of proprietary secrets... So perhaps the penetration of bad memes is already critical even in less wealthy locales. Regardless, the underlying problem exists--that of the insidious Darwinian adaptation of memes (not to mention the role of incomprehensible algorithms on what information people are increasingly presented with).

K...I really was just arguing against your point about atheism being behind the rise of conspiracy memes. I'm not putting too much weight on it, it just happens to be the part I was commenting on that I disagreed with.

You can be pro religion without promoting anti atheist theories that to me seem to have no ground.

I've been both religious and atheist and am pretty respectful of both.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Guest
Re: 5G conspiracy theories
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2021, 06:44:00 PM »
The internet and social media have enabled vast numbers of easy-to-spread memes to be created and subsequently enter competition with one another. The outcome of this universal Darwinian struggle for attention will be memes that are optimized for propagation. Truth will tend to spread less effectively than fabrications under certain conditions. For instance, many incorrect or insane beliefs don't have immediate concrete penalties for those holding them, especially when people can avoid public ridicule by insulating themselves in like-minded echo-chambers. Without the mechanism of falsification, there is no feedback that can encourage a correction in such beliefs.

Furthermore, the growing influence of secularism at the expense of religious affiliation has left a "God-shaped hole" in people that must be filled with some other system of belief (indeed, the specific capacity for religious belief may have been an evolutionary adaptation in humans by establishing a meaning to existence and fostering the emergence and enforcement of pro-social moral norms). This subconscious fervor in seeking unfalsifiable religious-like systems of belief may help further entrench such views. If trends continue, society's ability for sense-making will continue its post-modernist decline and lead to an acute existential crisis when a meaningful share of people have become mentally incapacitated by ideological anti-rational mind-viruses.

This sounds good on the surface, but I'm not buying it since plenty of people with God-filled holes tend to believe this crap.

People have always responded to conspiracy theories. The difference now is that conspiracists have better access to people than they ever have before, and therefore there is a much bigger machine investing in perpetuating them.

Also, globally religion isn't in decline, the percentage of the population that defines itself as religiously unaffiliated is actually shrinking.
I don't think we (yet) have the same sort of problem globally as in the West, and in particular, in the US. The West is where the most Extremely Online people can be found exposing themselves to various ideologies that have been weaponized through Darwinian selection. To a growing extent, the rest of the world is not far behind--perhaps a decade. And while it may be true that religious affiliation is increasing globally, it is decreasing in the US. Conducting a study on the relationship between religion and other ideologies would require some careful work to disentangle the causal factors at play. Discarding this hypothesis leaves the rest of my point intact, however.

I completely agree with your point that the potential for incorrect ideas has always existed and what has changed is the scale at which such spread can occur (was it Stalin who said: Quantity has a quality all its own?). Prior to social media, those pockets of insanity would be--usually--self-limiting in their scope (a notable exception being the major religions which have co-evolved with our institutions for 50-100 generations). The advent of newspapers and mass media started the process allowing a much faster uncontrolled spread of ideas. And today, perhaps a tipping point has been reached where the ease and speed at which ideas can spread can overwhelm our native ability to perform error correction at an individual or societal level. A nuclear bomb is just a warm lump of metal until compressed beyond the critical mass.

Are you saying that the US has a higher proportion of people falling for Internet conspiracies than elsewhere in the world? I would have to see data on that.
It's a bit of a prediction--I doubt there is good data on this, but who knows? Societal wealth should correlate with the absolute amount of time spent on social media, and therefore the amount of exposures to potentially virulent memes. A subsistence farmer in Cameroon is probably not getting (as) worked up over what he just saw on twitter as the typical WEIRD person.

Okay...but there are plenty of countries where religion is growing where people are on social media. So I'm not sure that correlation holds.

I'm also not convinced that there's a linear correlation of wealth and social media, but more of a threshold level of wealth. If that was the case then poorer states/regions in the US would have less social media involvement and as far as I know, that isn't the case.

So I'm still not buying the atheism/agnosticism correlation with consumption of conspiracy theories as a replacement for God. If anything, I've seen much more of an atheist/agnostic replacement of religion with the social construct of science.
Again, I think you are putting too much weight in the dependence of the argument on the second point about the potential adaptive benefit of religion. I just put it there as a barb against the New Atheist school of thought, which outright dismisses the possibility that religion plays any sort of positive role in human affairs.

The social media thing might well be wrong too--we had the Arab Spring over a self-immolated fruit merchant, a string of lynchings in India over Facebook garbage, and the Royhinga genocide over more Facebook wankery. Facebook is known to have done A/B testing (and possibly much more) regarding interaction with its platform, so my best guess is the best hard-data on these effects takes the form of proprietary secrets... So perhaps the penetration of bad memes is already critical even in less wealthy locales. Regardless, the underlying problem exists--that of the insidious Darwinian adaptation of memes (not to mention the role of incomprehensible algorithms on what information people are increasingly presented with).

K...I really was just arguing against your point about atheism being behind the rise of conspiracy memes. I'm not putting too much weight on it, it just happens to be the part I was commenting on that I disagreed with.

You can be pro religion without promoting anti atheist theories that to me seem to have no ground.

I've been both religious and atheist and am pretty respectful of both.
Understood and I may have misunderstood the nature of your criticism. I have always been agnostic (I wouldn't use the term "athiest" for myself) but have moved around with respect to how much utility religion may (or may not) serve.