Author Topic: 2020 POTUS Candidates  (Read 184937 times)

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4801
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1000 on: September 24, 2019, 01:08:17 PM »
Well, well, well. Looks like things are about to get interesting. In the last hour or so:

Itís been announced that Pelosi is about to authorize opening a formal impeachment investigation.

Trump has announced that he will release the unredacted transcript of a phone call with the Ukrainian president.

And the whistleblower has apparently asked to go in front of the Senate and House Intelligence Committees.


turketron

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Age: 34
  • Location: WI
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1001 on: September 24, 2019, 01:12:44 PM »
Trump has announced that he will release the unredacted transcript of a phone call with the Ukrainian president.

Just like with his taxes, I'll believe it when I see it.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4801
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1002 on: September 24, 2019, 01:22:15 PM »
Trump has announced that he will release the unredacted transcript of a phone call with the Ukrainian president.

Just like with his taxes, I'll believe it when I see it.

Oh, I am guessing he has one phone call whose transcript is clean enough for him to release it. Theyíve had several conversations. Thereís bound to be one he can use as a smokescreen.

But, he never does this, so it is significant. Iím guessing heís running a little scared.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14861
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1003 on: September 24, 2019, 02:10:47 PM »
Crooked presidents still record conversations?  Did Trump learn nothing from Nixon?

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6630
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1004 on: September 24, 2019, 03:11:33 PM »
Crooked presidents still record conversations?  Did Trump learn nothing from Nixon?

You can bet the Ukrainians were recording it too.

madgeylou

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2391
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1005 on: September 24, 2019, 04:37:51 PM »
I don't think Donald Trump would lose any support from Republicans if he was impeached.  They haven't cared about the other mountains of evidence of misbehaviour, so why start now?  If he's impeached and tossed out of office, I could see the Republicans running him again.
Clinton's approval numbers were the highest of his presidency after he was impeached. History could certainly repeat itself.

Clinton was impeached at a moment--December 1998--when the economy was the strongest ever, and it looked like we were going to run budget surpluses. His approval rating had more to do with other achievements as a President than the impeachment.

Plus Clintonís impeachment was idiotic. Trump has treasoned since before day one.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1006 on: September 24, 2019, 04:55:11 PM »
Republicans are saying, bring it.

pecunia

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1007 on: September 25, 2019, 05:32:09 PM »
Republicans are saying, bring it.

This whole Trump thing, him being elected President, being a continuously lying President, having near rock solid Republican support, etc.  makes one wonder,...........Who really runs this country?

It doesn't seem to be the way it was taught in High School Civics class.

Poundwise

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1512
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1008 on: September 25, 2019, 08:36:35 PM »
Even more provable than the quid pro quo, is how many times Trump has broken the law or demanded that others do so on his behalf.  It seems inconsistent for people to be all self-righteous and punitive about poor refugees breaking the law at the border (if they are actually doing so), but casual about our chief executive breaking the law.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1074
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1009 on: September 25, 2019, 08:56:27 PM »
Even more provable than the quid pro quo, is how many times Trump has broken the law or demanded that others do so on his behalf.  It seems inconsistent for people to be all self-righteous and punitive about poor refugees breaking the law at the border (if they are actually doing so), but casual about our chief executive breaking the law.
"Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal"

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1010 on: September 26, 2019, 05:56:55 AM »
Republicans are saying, bring it.

This whole Trump thing, him being elected President, being a continuously lying President, having near rock solid Republican support, etc.  makes one wonder,...........Who really runs this country?

It doesn't seem to be the way it was taught in High School Civics class.

I don't understand what you mean.  If a Democrat wins, I don't question the process.  I understand that sometimes one side wins, sometimes the other side wins.  It's been working forever.

On the peaceful transfer of power:
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/nothing-less-than-a-miracle-the-constitution-and-the-peaceful-transition-of

Trump hasn't finished his first term, and he could win another.  People are talking about him overtaking the government, but he has a fair and square shot at another four years. 

The pendulum swings back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 06:56:42 AM by KBecks »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14861
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1011 on: September 26, 2019, 09:11:13 AM »
Republicans are saying, bring it.

This whole Trump thing, him being elected President, being a continuously lying President, having near rock solid Republican support, etc.  makes one wonder,...........Who really runs this country?

It doesn't seem to be the way it was taught in High School Civics class.

I don't understand what you mean.  If a Democrat wins, I don't question the process.  I understand that sometimes one side wins, sometimes the other side wins.  It's been working forever.

On the peaceful transfer of power:
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/nothing-less-than-a-miracle-the-constitution-and-the-peaceful-transition-of

Trump hasn't finished his first term, and he could win another.  People are talking about him overtaking the government, but he has a fair and square shot at another four years. 

The pendulum swings back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

The last time a Democrat won the presidency but lost the popular vote was 1824.  Both George Bush and Donald Trump were elected into office after losing the popular vote.

The pendulum does swing back and forth . . . but sometimes it does so because the system is rigged to go against the wishes of the people.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 09:20:19 AM by GuitarStv »

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1012 on: September 26, 2019, 09:18:54 AM »
Republicans are saying, bring it.

This whole Trump thing, him being elected President, being a continuously lying President, having near rock solid Republican support, etc.  makes one wonder,...........Who really runs this country?

It doesn't seem to be the way it was taught in High School Civics class.

I don't understand what you mean.  If a Democrat wins, I don't question the process.  I understand that sometimes one side wins, sometimes the other side wins.  It's been working forever.

On the peaceful transfer of power:
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/nothing-less-than-a-miracle-the-constitution-and-the-peaceful-transition-of

Trump hasn't finished his first term, and he could win another.  People are talking about him overtaking the government, but he has a fair and square shot at another four years. 

The pendulum swings back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

I think you're ignoring the key points. Based on what I learned in school (not much to be fair :) I would have thought that our system of checks and balances would have disposed of Trump by now. Unfortunately that system requires more integrity from congress than what we're getting.

So I can't speak for pecunia, but I don't question the process of the election, rather what's happened since then.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1013 on: September 26, 2019, 02:47:24 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics/mike-turner-donald-trump-ukraine-whistleblower/index.html

Looks like there are some GOP congressmen mumbling about their disapproval publicly already.

Rep. Mike Turner - OH
Sen. Mitt Romney - UT

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1014 on: September 26, 2019, 03:16:43 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics/mike-turner-donald-trump-ukraine-whistleblower/index.html

Looks like there are some GOP congressmen mumbling about their disapproval publicly already.

Rep. Mike Turner - OH
Sen. Mitt Romney - UT

I can't decide if it's disheartening that this is the best we can get out of the Republicans after something so obviously inappropriate takes place or if it's reassuring that at least some of them have a limit to their sycophantic behavior. I suppose we should take what we can get and hope that others are just waiting for the right moment to acknowledge reality.

secondcor521

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2634
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Boise, Idaho
  • Big cattle, no hat.
    • Age of Eon - Overwatch player videos
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1015 on: September 26, 2019, 04:01:03 PM »
In (other) 2020 POTUS candidate news, Tulsi Gabbard has qualified for the mid-October debate.  I wonder how many times it will happen that a candidate qualifies for debate X and debate Z but not debate Y, where X,Y, and Z are monotonically increasing integers.  Probably not that many more, as I think the field will winnow itself enough after Iowa and New Hampshire.  (Does anyone think that the DNC would limit the debate stage if there are only, say, 6 candidates left running?  I don't.)

pecunia

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1016 on: September 26, 2019, 05:13:09 PM »
Great she got in - Maybe she'll pop the hot air from another candidate's rising balloon.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1017 on: September 26, 2019, 05:47:03 PM »
In (other) 2020 POTUS candidate news, Tulsi Gabbard has qualified for the mid-October debate.  I wonder how many times it will happen that a candidate qualifies for debate X and debate Z but not debate Y, where X,Y, and Z are monotonically increasing integers.  Probably not that many more, as I think the field will winnow itself enough after Iowa and New Hampshire.  (Does anyone think that the DNC would limit the debate stage if there are only, say, 6 candidates left running?  I don't.)

The November debate will have higher standards:

Quote
To qualify for the November debate, candidates must receive individual donations from at least 165,000 people, consisting of at least 600 unique donors in at least 20 states.This is up from the previous requirement of 130,000 donors and at least 400 donors in 20 states, which were the marks set for the September and October debates.

The polling threshold has also been bumped up but includes another category of polls that could be used to qualify. Candidates must stand at 3% or higher in at least four approved national or early state polls. Or they can reach 5% or higher in two early state polls. Early states include Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada.

I'm assuming that about 7-8 candidates should be able to make this cutoff.
Based on current polling that would leave out Booker, Klobuchar, Gabbard, Castro, Bennet, and Steyer.

So as of today, it looks like November will only leave:
Biden, Warren, Sanders, Buttigieg, Harris, Yang, and O'Rourke

But the only state where anyone except Biden, Warren, and Sanders would get delegates is Texas for O'Rourke. Buttigieg polls close in the midwest, but that's about it. It's still a 3-way race, and I don't see how any future debate would expand that.

Lmoot

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 826
    • Journal
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1018 on: September 27, 2019, 08:30:29 AM »
I wonder if this impeachment process will have an impact on the Democratic primaries. Maybe with the optics of Trump being impeached (with the looming possibility of him being thrown out), Democrats determined to vote for candidates most likely to beat Trump, even if the candidate wasn't their favorite, may feel more confident voting for their 1st choice.

Nick_Miller

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1182
  • Location: A sprawling estate with one of those cool circular driveways in the front!
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1019 on: September 27, 2019, 09:21:19 AM »
I wonder if this impeachment process will have an impact on the Democratic primaries. Maybe with the optics of Trump being impeached (with the looming possibility of him being thrown out), Democrats determined to vote for candidates most likely to beat Trump, even if the candidate wasn't their favorite, may feel more confident voting for their 1st choice.

Possibly? But I'd bet most won't underestimate Trump, no matter what. Hell, the whole impeachment process might prove to be so toxic, that it might stress even more how important it is to get him out.

Or...another real possibility is that the impeachment talk simply "sucks all the oxygen out of the room," and pulls attention away from the Dem primary, making it even harder for the lower-polling candidates to get any traction.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14861
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1020 on: September 27, 2019, 09:29:54 AM »
I still don't think that Trump being impeached will impact his popularity at all.  There's enough evidence of his failings and problems that the folks who like Trump have shifted largely from denial to acceptance.  They like him for who he is - a kid born rich who has failed in most of his business deals, and inveterate liar with a long and well documented history of racism, who has repeatedly used his public office position to personally enrich himself and his family.  That's who they want in office.

Lmoot

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 826
    • Journal
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1021 on: September 27, 2019, 11:01:14 AM »
^ Donít forget pornstar philandering, and serial sexual assaults. They want that too.

PathtoFIRE

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 705
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Dallas
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1022 on: September 27, 2019, 11:12:52 AM »
In case anyone also wasn't aware of it, the Senate has both the power to remove from office as well as bar the person from any future office.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14861
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1023 on: September 27, 2019, 12:01:52 PM »
In case anyone also wasn't aware of it, the Senate has both the power to remove from office as well as bar the person from any future office.

Theoretically that's true. It has never happened in history though, and the Republicans (who hold the senate) have yet to express any disagreement with Trump's actions.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1024 on: September 27, 2019, 02:26:40 PM »
In case anyone also wasn't aware of it, the Senate has both the power to remove from office as well as bar the person from any future office.

In case you weren't aware, the Senate has a Republican majority.

Look at this US Senator making up stories and NONE of it is in the call transcripts.  Pure lies.
https://www.newsweek.com/adam-schiff-parody-donald-trump-congressional-hearing-whistleblower-complaint-ukraine-call-1461579
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 02:34:50 PM by KBecks »

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1025 on: September 27, 2019, 02:43:44 PM »
In case anyone also wasn't aware of it, the Senate has both the power to remove from office as well as bar the person from any future office.

In case you weren't aware, the Senate has a Republican majority.

Look at this US Senator making up stories and NONE of it is in the call transcripts.  Pure lies.
https://www.newsweek.com/adam-schiff-parody-donald-trump-congressional-hearing-whistleblower-complaint-ukraine-call-1461579

So you're upset about what Schiff said about the transcript, but do you have an opinion about the transcript itself? Would you defend Trump's actions as innocent?

I think what was actually said on the call is much more relevant than politicians bickering after the fact.

ETA: We should probably continue this discussion over here

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/good-news/
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 03:25:17 PM by Dabnasty »

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1026 on: September 27, 2019, 04:02:55 PM »
How about we re-focus on Hunter Biden?  Joe Biden is likely toast now.   I think Warren is a stronger candidate for 2020, and the Ukraine issue will hurt Biden's campaign deeply.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 04:11:15 PM by KBecks »

secondcor521

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2634
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Boise, Idaho
  • Big cattle, no hat.
    • Age of Eon - Overwatch player videos
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1027 on: September 27, 2019, 04:17:29 PM »
Warren has polled ahead of Biden in a recent Iowa and a recent New Hampshire poll.  I thought Biden's campaign was on it's way to being done even before the Ukraine story.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1028 on: September 27, 2019, 05:20:49 PM »
Warren has polled ahead of Biden in a recent Iowa and a recent New Hampshire poll.  I thought Biden's campaign was on it's way to being done even before the Ukraine story.

The true irony of this whole debacle. Trump embarrassing himself over a candidate that was never going to win in the first place.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1029 on: September 27, 2019, 06:59:33 PM »
Except that if the Bidens were manipulating things in the Ukraine, it deserves to be investigated.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1030 on: September 27, 2019, 07:19:41 PM »
Except that if the Bidens were manipulating things in the Ukraine, it deserves to be investigated.

There's no doubt in my mind that Biden is likely guilty of general politician corruption. But President he is not, nor do I find it nearly as bad as using tax payer money to leverage dirt on your potential opponent from a foreign government. Unless there's evidence of a crime against Biden, then the only person right now who has evidence of guilt against him is Trump

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4801
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1031 on: September 27, 2019, 08:00:16 PM »

LonerMatt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 938
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1032 on: September 28, 2019, 12:56:05 AM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4880
  • Location: Avalon
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1033 on: September 28, 2019, 01:06:51 AM »
Except that if the Bidens were manipulating things in the Ukraine, it deserves to be investigated.
There is absolutely no evidence of any kind, whether documentary or from witnesses, that anyone has put forward (hearsay or not) that "the Bidens" were "manipulating things in the Ukraine".  In fact, if you have any such evidence you should forward it to the appropriate authorities (or the appropriate news outlets).  If you don't have such evidence, I am afraid that your statement is evidence that you are being misled by the news sources you consume into believing a fictitious Trump smokescreen.  Ironically, Trump trying to set up that smokescreen is what is most likely to get him impeached.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1034 on: September 28, 2019, 03:17:23 AM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

How many Republican Americans do you know?

Your talk is civil war type talk, and I'm glad you don't live here.  You are demonizing people and that is wrong.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 03:57:04 AM by KBecks »

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1035 on: September 28, 2019, 03:21:19 AM »
Except that if the Bidens were manipulating things in the Ukraine, it deserves to be investigated.

There's no doubt in my mind that Biden is likely guilty of general politician corruption. But President he is not, nor do I find it nearly as bad as using tax payer money to leverage dirt on your potential opponent from a foreign government. Unless there's evidence of a crime against Biden, then the only person right now who has evidence of guilt against him is Trump

Have you heard of Hillary Clinton and Russia collusion? 

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4880
  • Location: Avalon
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1036 on: September 28, 2019, 03:45:37 AM »
Except that if the Bidens were manipulating things in the Ukraine, it deserves to be investigated.

There's no doubt in my mind that Biden is likely guilty of general politician corruption. But President he is not, nor do I find it nearly as bad as using tax payer money to leverage dirt on your potential opponent from a foreign government. Unless there's evidence of a crime against Biden, then the only person right now who has evidence of guilt against him is Trump

Have you heard of Hillary Clinton and Russia collusion?
esdi
We've heard about Hillary and her wrongdoings (although I'm not sure I've heard any details of undoubtedly false allegations of her colluding with Russia, those are new to me - undoubtedly false because of Putin's long standing hatred for her).  Funnily enough, there's been a Republican Attorney General for the last two years and despite that no legal action, whether criminal or civil, has even been started against Hillary.  Why do you think that is?  Could it, possibly, because she had done nothing that amounted to a civil wrong or a crime?  You are not stupid, so think it through logically and let us know.

Also, please think through the facts relating to the Bidens and let us know what they've done wrong that merits any legal action against them.

At the moment, you are just posting to throw out statements that you don't back up, ignoring posts that challenge those statements, and failing to provide any coherent, intellectually sound basis for what you are saying.

I get that you have an emotional and instinctive connection with the Republican party that has bled over into supporting Trump.  I sympathise, I really do: it's hard when reality intrudes on one's core feelings and knocks them sideways.  And of course you can post your support for Republican points of view: on a forum dedicated to living responsible, productive lives, mainstream Republicanism economic thought is an entirely understandable point of view (less so its social attitudes).  But an unreflexive reposting of Trump's false propaganda is unlikely to be unchallenged.

Johnez

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1098
  • Location: Southern California
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1037 on: September 28, 2019, 05:21:44 AM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

The hard working people of this country deserve better.  Unfortunately the Democrats have little to offer and in many cases exacerbate many of this country's problems with their plans.  I'm not a fan of Trump's rhetoric, nor his character, however he is addressing two issues that will undoubtedly benefit Americans for years.  Immigration and trade.  We do not need hundreds of thousands of immigrants and the drain they put on our infrastructure and social programs, we need to stop the flow.  We need strong trade agreements to compete with the world economy fairly.  Addressing both of these issues will raise the prospects for Americans here and address poverty and inequity through better opportunities.  Everyone, male, female, white, black, brown, straight, gay, green... 

If there was a democrat that took as strong a stance on addressing trade and immigration as Trump, and refused to entertain the idea of conjuring up more social welfare programs (reparations, free college, a 2.5 billion dollar housing "plan," etc.), but instead focused on the actual economy, I'd vote for them. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14861
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1038 on: September 28, 2019, 07:51:41 AM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

The hard working people of this country deserve better.  Unfortunately the Democrats have little to offer and in many cases exacerbate many of this country's problems with their plans.  I'm not a fan of Trump's rhetoric, nor his character, however he is addressing two issues that will undoubtedly benefit Americans for years.  Immigration and trade.  We do not need hundreds of thousands of immigrants and the drain they put on our infrastructure and social programs, we need to stop the flow.  We need strong trade agreements to compete with the world economy fairly.  Addressing both of these issues will raise the prospects for Americans here and address poverty and inequity through better opportunities.  Everyone, male, female, white, black, brown, straight, gay, green... 

If there was a democrat that took as strong a stance on addressing trade and immigration as Trump, and refused to entertain the idea of conjuring up more social welfare programs (reparations, free college, a 2.5 billion dollar housing "plan," etc.), but instead focused on the actual economy, I'd vote for them.

If you're willing to do the job better than a hard working immigrant you have absolutely nothing to fear from one.  The folks most stridently against immigration are the lazy people fixing to keep cushy, overpaid jobs that they would otherwise lose to those who are really willing to work hard.

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3736
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1039 on: September 28, 2019, 09:02:09 AM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

The hard working people of this country deserve better.  Unfortunately the Democrats have little to offer and in many cases exacerbate many of this country's problems with their plans.  I'm not a fan of Trump's rhetoric, nor his character, however he is addressing two issues that will undoubtedly benefit Americans for years.  Immigration and trade.  We do not need hundreds of thousands of immigrants and the drain they put on our infrastructure and social programs, we need to stop the flow.  We need strong trade agreements to compete with the world economy fairly.  Addressing both of these issues will raise the prospects for Americans here and address poverty and inequity through better opportunities.  Everyone, male, female, white, black, brown, straight, gay, green... 

If there was a democrat that took as strong a stance on addressing trade and immigration as Trump, and refused to entertain the idea of conjuring up more social welfare programs (reparations, free college, a 2.5 billion dollar housing "plan," etc.), but instead focused on the actual economy, I'd vote for them.

Well if you are concerned about the economy, and jobs, the way that Trump is trying to deal with it belongs in the 50's and doesn't make sense. The reality is, live in a global economy. Trade and immigration and competition is global. If you just try to turn back the clock and ignore those realities it's like putting your finger in a dike that's about to burst. What any politician, and Americans need to figure out is how to best deal with the reality we live in a global economy and there will be immigration, and how to best prepare, adapt and even take advantage of that reality. 
One is by having our education system be good enough to educate and train our youth so our people are competitive enough to get and keep jobs.
Another thing that will help our workforce be competitive, is literally having f-ing healthcare coverage so employees don't miss work or lose their job due to medical issues.
That we push even faster in being competitve on an energy scale by both reducing energy costs and transitioning to sources that will reduce greenhouse gases, even if that means yes, nuclear. I disagree that the Democrats do not help out the "economy" or corporations. A huge number of American companies are global sucesses; our government has never been shy about helping corporations over individuals (either party). But yeah if the government was going to throw money at them, I would rather have the throw money at transitioning to re-training people who are in obsolete jobs, and funding transition to sustainable practices. I don't think it's a partisan issue that we can do this at the same time as having clean air water and not using up all our natural resources or selling to the lowest bidder. I don't think economic growth comes before everything else.

Population growth of the US has slowed. We need young people to consume, pay consumer taxes and also pay into ssn taxes to fund these. The studies I have found is that immigrants actually have lower rates of crime than the US population in general. They put more into the economy than they take out. The one exception is that new immigrants do place higher strain on cities and areas at the border. In this case I think the Federal government should step in to both make the immigration process (whether it is accepting, or denying applications) more streamlined and orderly (less soldiers, more people reviewing and processing paperwork) as well as resources to help the infrastructure and health care costs of those municipalities.
Trump's and Stephen Miller's immigration "plan" does not make sense. He's trying to stop or curtail all immigration (it's not about legal status, or work status, or education/desirability levels, but from how "brown" of a country they come from). Trump also wants to have the power revamp the legal status of people who are already US citizens,. He doesn't even believe that being born in the US means you are a US citizen.  He wants to decide who is a citizen and who is not, who can work here and who can't, so he and his WH have control who has rights and who doesn't. It's freaking scary and entirely anti-constitutional. Politically its about making immigrants the bogeyman and create an us vs them mentality, rather than actually helping US workers.

It's not just my opinion. If you want to be economically better-off, vote for a Democratic President.
https://evonomics.com/economists-agree-democratic-presidents-better-making-us-rich-eight-reasons/
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 09:17:29 AM by partgypsy »

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4880
  • Location: Avalon
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1040 on: September 28, 2019, 10:13:09 AM »
Here's an idea: Trump and Miller can authorise the immigration to the USA of Brexit voters in the UK, thereby improving both countries at the same time.

LonerMatt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 938
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1041 on: September 28, 2019, 02:01:15 PM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

How many Republican Americans do you know?

Your talk is civil war type talk, and I'm glad you don't live here.  You are demonizing people and that is wrong.

1. Lots

2. People can't be both good people and vote for the Republicans, atm they are mutually exclusive. You've got a GOP that's hell bent of rigging the system through extreme gerry mandering, voter suppression, hypocrisy (eg, Supreme Court shenanigans for fuckstick McConnell) who are silently acquiescing a bumbling, kleptomaniac proto-dictator who is entirely happy to make the world worse and ramp up white supremacists, racists and idiots to stay exactly as evil as he always way.

You support that? You're a bad person until you change. Doesn't matter what people say: supporting someone like that is immoral. Straight up.

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1042 on: September 28, 2019, 03:04:28 PM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

How many Republican Americans do you know?

Your talk is civil war type talk, and I'm glad you don't live here.  You are demonizing people and that is wrong.

1. Lots

2. People can't be both good people and vote for the Republicans, atm they are mutually exclusive. You've got a GOP that's hell bent of rigging the system through extreme gerry mandering, voter suppression, hypocrisy (eg, Supreme Court shenanigans for fuckstick McConnell) who are silently acquiescing a bumbling, kleptomaniac proto-dictator who is entirely happy to make the world worse and ramp up white supremacists, racists and idiots to stay exactly as evil as he always way.

You support that? You're a bad person until you change. Doesn't matter what people say: supporting someone like that is immoral. Straight up.

I really wish people wouldn't say this. If there's one way to ensure that someone digs in their heels and refuses to change it's this right here. The vast majority of people have good intentions regardless of the true consequences of their actions. I realize its hard to understand how someone doesn't see what's obvious to you, but I guarantee that it's possible.

Laserjet3051

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 786
  • Age: 91
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1043 on: September 28, 2019, 04:39:33 PM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

Sweeping generalizations like this tell me a lot more about you than about the relative moral character of people who may vote R. I too, am glad you dont live/vote here. I'm not R, but I vote in every election for the best candidate, whatever party affiliation, they may, or may not have.

LonerMatt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 938
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1044 on: September 28, 2019, 04:54:25 PM »
If you think it's possible for Federal politicians to separate themselves from their party you are very, very hopeful.

You have people fawning over someone objectively making things worse for the most exposed in society, lying non-stop, careening around damaging the country, its work and the making possibility of any future improvements significantly higher while catering to white supremacists, racists, xenophobes, the 1% and, through his loud mouth attention grabbing junk fest creating a smokescreen for more savvy political operators (McConnell, etc) to continually ram ultra conservative and long lasting shit through every level of government they can possibly do it to.

Is someone supporting that, with all the clarity we can have now, regardless of intentions doing something moral? Doing something right?

Grow up. Pandering to dumb fucks impressed by a child's idea of man's strength frothing at the mouth as he locks up some more kids and fucks over some more poors isn't something smart or empathetic - it enables the liar in chief to continue to get away with treason, sexual assault, manipulation, inviting foreign interference, stoking hate, promoting violence, etc.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 04:59:43 PM by LonerMatt »

pecunia

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1045 on: September 29, 2019, 11:38:42 AM »


- SNIP

Is someone supporting that, with all the clarity we can have now, regardless of intentions doing something moral? Doing something right?

- SNIP -


They work for the rich.  The rich are smart.  The rich are taking care of their own.  The rich are using Mitch and covering their tracks with political noise.  The rich have a separate morality.  You and I don't really count to them.  We're from the other side of the tracks and they own the railroad.  They have worked for many years into buying into the philosophy that they want.  Trickle Down, job creators, the magic of market mechanisms and other propaganda has been eagerly swallowed by their followers.

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1046 on: October 02, 2019, 09:54:20 AM »
I think you're at a point in the USA that anyone pro-Republican is anti-USA, certainly anti-democracy, anti-equality and anti-environment and totally immoral.

How many Republican Americans do you know?

Your talk is civil war type talk, and I'm glad you don't live here.  You are demonizing people and that is wrong.

1. Lots

2. People can't be both good people and vote for the Republicans, atm they are mutually exclusive. You've got a GOP that's hell bent of rigging the system through extreme gerry mandering, voter suppression, hypocrisy (eg, Supreme Court shenanigans for fuckstick McConnell) who are silently acquiescing a bumbling, kleptomaniac proto-dictator who is entirely happy to make the world worse and ramp up white supremacists, racists and idiots to stay exactly as evil as he always way.

You support that? You're a bad person until you change. Doesn't matter what people say: supporting someone like that is immoral. Straight up.

Please. I don't support trump, and I'd vote against McConnell if I could. But in my state, the democrats are guilty of everything you listed. Gerrymandering: Check. Voter Suppression: Does having  public employee union members threaten me at work count?  Hypocrisy - check. Playing games to prevent new taxes from being referred to the voters? Check. Lying about a bill that outright negates something the voters overwhelmingly upheld in a recent election? Check. Supporting a bumbling, kleptomaniac proto-dictator who is too beholden to her union donors to do the right thing while bankrupting our schools and accepting some of the worse outcomes in the country for education, among many other things? check.   I think you're morally bankrupt to vote for a D in oregon.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2358
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1047 on: October 02, 2019, 10:11:23 AM »
Seems Bernie had some stents placed and will take a temporary vacation from campaigning while he recovers.
https://www.apnews.com/eab21e66d7734867b8620fe9efaeb8a2

Hope he recovers well, but we really don't need a super-old person in the oval office. We need them to be healthy. And that is independent of party, or any specific candidate.

secondcor521

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2634
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Boise, Idaho
  • Big cattle, no hat.
    • Age of Eon - Overwatch player videos
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1048 on: October 02, 2019, 10:38:25 AM »
Seems Bernie had some stents placed and will take a temporary vacation from campaigning while he recovers.
https://www.apnews.com/eab21e66d7734867b8620fe9efaeb8a2

Hope he recovers well, but we really don't need a super-old person in the oval office. We need them to be healthy. And that is independent of party, or any specific candidate.

I likewise hope Senator Sanders gets well soon.  My understanding from a limited news story I heard on the radio suggested it was not a super serious thing.

Obviously it will bring out the "don't elect an old person" argument.  "Old white man bad" was part of my thinking about why I predicted Biden and Sanders wouldn't get the nomination.  Warren is a mostly white woman over 70.  I wasn't sure how that would play, but it is obviously currently playing well.

I'm very curious to see the polling in a month or so as the Ukraine issue moves along however it does.  Third quarter fundraising numbers also will be a briefly interesting story and data point (Sanders and Buttigieg raised the most dollars, Harris did about the same as she has.  Biden and Warren appear not to have reported numbers yet).

Nick_Miller

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1182
  • Location: A sprawling estate with one of those cool circular driveways in the front!
Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #1049 on: October 02, 2019, 10:50:04 AM »
More candidate/campaign news...

Sanders $25M
Pete $19M
Kamala $11M
Yang(!) $10M
Booker $6M
Bennet $2M
Trump $125M (Wow!)(but this includes RNC $ too)

And Bernie had some stents put in today. We'll see how soon he bounces back.

But really to me the biggest news is Yang raising $10M. Geez. He started out as just as much of a "nobody" as Pete, perhaps more so, and he's a real player now.

My dream debate at this point would be Warren versus Pete versus Yang. I think the country would be much better off hearing from the three of them share their policy ideas and visions of America.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 12:18:19 PM by Nick_Miller »