Author Topic: 2020 POTUS Candidates  (Read 186029 times)

FIPurpose

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #950 on: September 18, 2019, 04:00:32 PM »
Guys seriously. Way off-topic now. Move it off thread.

Really, dude? I'm having a hard time taking you seriously. You already called this out as off topic like 10 posts in and only on the conservative poster's comments. Didn't see you complaining on the liberal posters that were just as off topic on guns before him. Also, we had quite a row on abortion earlier where not only was it just as off topic, but the comments were belittling for even the audacity to have an opinion on the issue...didn't see you stepping in there. I'm seeing a theme here....

I am going to stop, though, because I agree there's not going to be any resolution on this.

I have no idea what you're talking about. If you thought I was only calling out conservative posters, that's on you. You won't find it in any of my replies. I don't remember any abortion discussion either. I was either gone for it, or maybe people were actually connecting it to the topic. Heck, I don't remember if I've even made a comment on guns rights on this site. Either way, I never told you to shut up or leave the site or make any sort of statement on anyone's opinion on guns. I simply said to take to a different thread.

These discussions are going to be fluid where gun rights and abortion are connected to POTUS 2020 Candidates a little discussion is expected. But from about 10 posts in it was obvious that a couple of people here were willing to take this on multiple pages.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #951 on: September 18, 2019, 04:08:20 PM »
A responsible gun owner wants there to be background checks, and doesn't mind if assault weapons with multiple magazine clips are banned.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #952 on: September 18, 2019, 05:47:24 PM »
Guys seriously. Way off-topic now. Move it off thread.

Really, dude? I'm having a hard time taking you seriously. You already called this out as off topic like 10 posts in and only on the conservative poster's comments. Didn't see you complaining on the liberal posters that were just as off topic on guns before him. Also, we had quite a row on abortion earlier where not only was it just as off topic, but the comments were belittling for even the audacity to have an opinion on the issue...didn't see you stepping in there. I'm seeing a theme here....

I am going to stop, though, because I agree there's not going to be any resolution on this.

I have no idea what you're talking about. If you thought I was only calling out conservative posters, that's on you. You won't find it in any of my replies. I don't remember any abortion discussion either. I was either gone for it, or maybe people were actually connecting it to the topic. Heck, I don't remember if I've even made a comment on guns rights on this site. Either way, I never told you to shut up or leave the site or make any sort of statement on anyone's opinion on guns. I simply said to take to a different thread.

These discussions are going to be fluid where gun rights and abortion are connected to POTUS 2020 Candidates a little discussion is expected. But from about 10 posts in it was obvious that a couple of people here were willing to take this on multiple pages.

It's not on me. It's on you and how you're choosing to comment. My point is that, as ncornlisen stated, multiple posts had already gone very off topic on guns until he posted something from a conservative side and you latched onto that post in particular (not just making a blanket - hey let's keep it on topic) but with your comment argued against it specifically as 95% off topic and 5% on topic when, again, previous posts were 100% off topic but were liberal. My other point was that we went very off topic on abortion several pages earlier and you said nothing there - just so happened that those comments were almost exclusively liberal in persuasion and very demeaning to conservatives. My point is that these two things seem to indicate that your concern isn't things getting off topic so much as it is off topic when conservative opinions are being defended. You then act as the arbitrator of being on topic for this thread demanding not very politely that we "Move it off thread." That coupled with your inconsistencies on what types of things you commented on or didn't comment on (incidental though you may claim them to be) was kind of annoying, which is why I said what I said. It could be entirely coincidental, but if you actually look at the other side, you might see why it was annoying with the above stated facts. Either way, don't worry, I also won't comment any more about this either.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 07:51:39 PM by Wolfpack Mustachian »

YttriumNitrate

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #953 on: September 18, 2019, 08:10:10 PM »
Anyone else thinks it's funny that people are complaining about a thread going off topic in a forum called Off Topic?

secondcor521

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #954 on: September 18, 2019, 08:30:48 PM »
I have made no comments about either of the two issues that have arisen on this thread.

I likewise would prefer to move those issues to new threads and keep this one about the candidates.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #955 on: September 19, 2019, 05:07:13 AM »

My hope is that some GOPers, even if they can't bring themselves to vote for a Dem, will be so disgusted by Trump they stay home. Comments like Beto's could encourage them to come out to the polls. Of course, by the time the general election rolls around, the GOP will be painting the Dem as the anti-christ.

"We're taking all your guns" will bring Republicans to the polls.  So will, "Impeach Kavanaugh".


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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #956 on: September 19, 2019, 05:09:24 AM »
A responsible gun owner wants there to be background checks, and doesn't mind if assault weapons with multiple magazine clips are banned.

That will not satisfy Dems.  As Kris said, that's a "starting point".  It will never stop and it's giving up inch by inch by inch until it's all gone.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #957 on: September 19, 2019, 05:19:31 AM »

Well, at least you are acknowledging the childishness of your behavior. But if you really think he warrants no further effort, I wonder at your expending further energy piling on even more childishness with “phony frat boy douche.”

And it's not childish to call Trump a cheeto? 

Anyway, phony frat boy douche is funny to us conservatives.  And probably accurate, too! 

My understanding of nicknames is that Alberto is Beto.  Robert is Bob. He's Irish.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 05:24:09 AM by KBecks »

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #958 on: September 19, 2019, 05:38:00 AM »

Well, at least you are acknowledging the childishness of your behavior. But if you really think he warrants no further effort, I wonder at your expending further energy piling on even more childishness with “phony frat boy douche.”

And it's not childish to call Trump a cheeto? 

Anyway, phony frat boy douche is funny to us conservatives.  And probably accurate, too! 

My understanding of nicknames is that Alberto is Beto.  Robert is Bob. He's Irish.

From wikipedia: "Beto is a surname, and a nickname for the given names Alberto, Albertino, Berthony, Heriberto, Norberto, Roberto or Humberto. It occurs mostly in Portuguese- and Spanish-speaking countries and communities."

So Beto is also a nickname for Roberto, of which Robert is a minority cultural variation in El Paso.

partgypsy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #959 on: September 19, 2019, 05:46:08 AM »
A responsible gun owner wants there to be background checks, and doesn't mind if assault weapons with multiple magazine clips are banned.

That will not satisfy Dems.  As Kris said, that's a "starting point".  It will never stop and it's giving up inch by inch by inch until it's all gone.

rolls eyes.
What I would be satisfied with. Universal background check, nationalized gun registry so that someone who committed crimes or reported to be mentally unstable/domestic violence in one state or jurisdiction, can't go over to another area to get guns. 2nd, I don't believe there is any reason for civilians to have semi automatic assault rifles like xm15 in their house. They are not used for hunting, not used for self-defense, the only thing they are really good at is killing large amounts of people in a short period of time. Just like super fast racing cars that are also not allowed on regular streets but people can pay to race them on closed tracks, I don't mind if people can go to target location to shoot them for fun. The thing is, an isolated young man whose mom kept guns in the home walked into an elementary school and killed 20 elementary school kids and 6 adults. I just don't want something like that to ever happen again. I don't want either of my daughters to be in a situation of being at school and someone walking in with a semi-automatic weapon and being hunted down.

 I actually believe that most gun owners ARE responsible gun owners otherwise there would be a much higher death toll. But when you get to homicidal or suicidal people, access to their method of choice is the number one factor in whether they are successful. If you make that method of choice unavailable or hard to access you avoid those outcomes.   

Here are a couple reports on what law enforcement wants. You know, the people who protect us, who are the ones who have to put their lives on the line in active shooter situations.
It includes banning conceal carry in a number of locations like university campuses, an assault weapon ban, and not selling bullet proof vests/tactical gear to civilians. There are common sense things we can do to reduce gun violence and it's not "take all your guns"
https://www.theiacp.org/sites/default/files/2019-05/IACP%20Firearms%20Position%20Paper_2018%20(1).pdf

https://www.policeforum.org/assets/reducinggunviolence.pdf
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 05:55:12 AM by partgypsy »

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #960 on: September 19, 2019, 06:14:10 AM »
Conservatives feel that nationalized gun registry is a setup for future confiscation. 

People get very emotional about gun violence.  The odds of your child getting gunned down in school are infinitesimal.  Without access to a gun, suicidal people will hang, overdose, drown or use other means.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 06:19:05 AM by KBecks »

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #961 on: September 19, 2019, 06:34:52 AM »
A responsible gun owner wants there to be background checks, and doesn't mind if assault weapons with multiple magazine clips are banned.

That will not satisfy Dems.  As Kris said, that's a "starting point".  It will never stop and it's giving up inch by inch by inch until it's all gone.

No. That is not what I said, so do not put words in my mouth. I said that Ncornilsen's ideas were a starting point for a conversation. As in, common ground for both sides, that if the conservatives were arguing in good faith we should be able to get his conservative ideas passed.

i never said anything in response to Davidinannarbor's post. so do not pretend I did.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #962 on: September 19, 2019, 06:40:18 AM »

Well, at least you are acknowledging the childishness of your behavior. But if you really think he warrants no further effort, I wonder at your expending further energy piling on even more childishness with “phony frat boy douche.”

And it's not childish to call Trump a cheeto? 

Anyway, phony frat boy douche is funny to us conservatives.  And probably accurate, too! 

My understanding of  nicknames is that Alberto is Beto.  Robert is Bob. He's Irish.

For fuck’s sake. Yes, it s childish to call Trump a cheeto. As I said above, name-calling is childish, citing the example of Drumpf. But you seem to have skipped over that.

What is it with conservatives and your tu quoque fallacies? Everyone sees you doing it.

Phony? I don’t see it, please elaborate. As far as I can research, Beto was never in a frat. And douche is just more childish name-calling. Which seems to be the level of conversation you want to have.

And it seems to me that with your last remark, you are proving exactly my point on the racial aspect of why conservatives keep calling him Robert Francis. Which Ncornilsen went to very great aims to deny, but then wriggled like hell to try to get out of telling me what else it could be. So, thanks for that.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 06:44:31 AM by Kris »

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #963 on: September 19, 2019, 06:40:51 AM »
Yeah, I really don't pay close attention to most of the things you say. The only thing I call Beto is a loser.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #964 on: September 19, 2019, 06:44:12 AM »
ConservativesConspiracy theorists feel that nationalized gun registry is a setup for future confiscation. 

Based on polling somewhere between 60-80% of the US supports a gun registry. That will necessarily include some conservatives. There is likely a significant group who do not want a registry but also do not believe this conspiracy, which would suggest some portion less than 20-40% believe what you're saying. Anecdotally I know many conservatives who do not believe this. I know other conservatives who probably do but I've never discussed the issue with them.

https://lawcenter.giffords.org/polling-on-registration-of-firearms/

Quote
People get very emotional about gun violence.  The odds of your child getting gunned down in school are infinitesimal. 

I agree that the visibility and terribleness of a small number of events causes the general population to overweight the importance of gun control over specific weapon types. However, the types of laws Kris mentions would target all types of gun violence, not just school shootings.

Quote
Without access to a gun, suicidal people will hang, overdose, drown or use other means.

Have you read any gun law thread on this forum? This comes up every single time. Access to a gun increases the chances of a successful suicide attempt. There is no question about this, it makes sense in theory and the data strongly supports this conclusion.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #965 on: September 19, 2019, 06:48:40 AM »

Well, at least you are acknowledging the childishness of your behavior. But if you really think he warrants no further effort, I wonder at your expending further energy piling on even more childishness with “phony frat boy douche.”

And it's not childish to call Trump a cheeto? 

Anyway, phony frat boy douche is funny to us conservatives.  And probably accurate, too! 

My understanding of nicknames is that Alberto is Beto.  Robert is Bob. He's Irish.

From wikipedia: "Beto is a surname, and a nickname for the given names Alberto, Albertino, Berthony, Heriberto, Norberto, Roberto or Humberto. It occurs mostly in Portuguese- and Spanish-speaking countries and communities."

So Beto is also a nickname for Roberto, of which Robert is a minority cultural variation in El Paso.

If your name is Robert, and you take on the Latino version of your name for political purposes, that's being phony.
No arguing that he's a Texan though.
I doubt that O'Rourke grew up being called Beto by his parents.  Maybe I'm wrong?  But I doubt it.  He was probably little Robbie or Bobby.

Busting out the Spanish mid-speech is also political.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #966 on: September 19, 2019, 06:51:15 AM »
Have you read any gun law thread on this forum?

God, no.  Discussing gun control with liberals is the definition of a waste of time.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #967 on: September 19, 2019, 06:53:27 AM »

Well, at least you are acknowledging the childishness of your behavior. But if you really think he warrants no further effort, I wonder at your expending further energy piling on even more childishness with “phony frat boy douche.”

And it's not childish to call Trump a cheeto? 

Anyway, phony frat boy douche is funny to us conservatives.  And probably accurate, too! 

My understanding of nicknames is that Alberto is Beto.  Robert is Bob. He's Irish.

From wikipedia: "Beto is a surname, and a nickname for the given names Alberto, Albertino, Berthony, Heriberto, Norberto, Roberto or Humberto. It occurs mostly in Portuguese- and Spanish-speaking countries and communities."

So Beto is also a nickname for Roberto, of which Robert is a minority cultural variation in El Paso.

If your name is Robert, and you take on the Latino version of your name for political purposes, that's being phony.
No arguing that he's a Texan though.
I doubt that O'Rourke grew up being called Beto by his parents.  Maybe I'm wrong?  But I doubt it.  He was probably little Robbie or Bobby.

Yep. There it is.

But again, you don’t see the conservatives calling Ted Cruz “Rafael,” or Bobby Jindal “Priyush,” or Nikki Haley Nimrata Randhawa. Nope, that ain’t fake at all. Nope.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #968 on: September 19, 2019, 06:55:25 AM »
Yeah, I really don't pay close attention to most of the things you say. The only thing I call Beto is a loser.

So you're not really interested in participating in the thread?

The whole debate is about whether calling Beto by his full name is childish. No one was trying to defend name calling on either side. No one was trying to defend Beto's ideas. From what I can tell, no one in this thread even likes Beto as a candidate.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #969 on: September 19, 2019, 06:55:39 AM »
Yeah, I really don't pay close attention to most of the things you say. The only thing I call Beto is a loser.

And yet, here you are quoting me.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #970 on: September 19, 2019, 06:57:01 AM »
Have you read any gun law thread on this forum?

God, no.  Discussing gun control with liberals is the definition of a waste of time.

And yet, here you are doing it.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #971 on: September 19, 2019, 06:59:16 AM »
I realize when I'm wasting time, yes.

O'Rourke is a non-viable presidential candidate at this point, there's no reason to discuss him. 

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #972 on: September 19, 2019, 07:14:34 AM »
Have you read any gun law thread on this forum?

God, no.  Discussing gun control with liberals is the definition of a waste of time.

I wouldn't want to waste any more of your time, but I highly recommend reading this if you don't believe there is a link between gun access and death by suicide.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magazine/guns-and-suicide/

Quote
suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45 attempts

Quote
Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.

Were you aware that the vast majority of suicide attempts are unsuccessful? Just a rhetorical question.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #973 on: September 19, 2019, 07:22:03 AM »
I realize when I'm wasting time, yes.

O'Rourke is a non-viable presidential candidate at this point, there's no reason to discuss him.

If there’s no reason to discuss him, why are you discussing him?

Nick_Miller

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #974 on: September 19, 2019, 07:23:09 AM »
So yeah, let's get back to tying our comments to candidates, be they Democrats or Republicans.

And yeah it would be preferable if people would refrain from name calling and the like. I would like to think we here are at least a few levels more mature than folks on Twitter and Facebook. If someone doesn't have a substantive comment, is it really a wise use of their (I assume valuable) time to poke fun or name call?

I despise Trump, but I'll refrain from calling him names. There are plenty of substantive issues to criticize him on.

I've been wondering about whether Pence will be on the ticket again in 2020. Any thoughts on that? I mean, with Trump burning through his closest circle like he has, do folks think Pence is  immune to Trump's fickle attitudes towards people? Would Pence be relieved to get out? Does he think he'd have the best chance at the White House to last another 4 years as VP and then run as the "sorta incumbent" in 2024?


Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #975 on: September 19, 2019, 07:59:54 AM »
So yeah, let's get back to tying our comments to candidates, be they Democrats or Republicans.

And yeah it would be preferable if people would refrain from name calling and the like. I would like to think we here are at least a few levels more mature than folks on Twitter and Facebook. If someone doesn't have a substantive comment, is it really a wise use of their (I assume valuable) time to poke fun or name call?

I despise Trump, but I'll refrain from calling him names. There are plenty of substantive issues to criticize him on.

I've been wondering about whether Pence will be on the ticket again in 2020. Any thoughts on that? I mean, with Trump burning through his closest circle like he has, do folks think Pence is  immune to Trump's fickle attitudes towards people? Would Pence be relieved to get out? Does he think he'd have the best chance at the White House to last another 4 years as VP and then run as the "sorta incumbent" in 2024?

I think Trump will dump Pence and put Ivanka on the ticket. Not joking. (I think I’ve said that already in this thread or another one.)

But yeah, at any rate, I think Pence is gonna be gone. Trump will replace him at a time of maximum media exposure/frenzy designed to suck the air out of the room. Maybe during the DNC convention?

partgypsy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #976 on: September 19, 2019, 09:59:00 AM »
Conservatives feel that nationalized gun registry is a setup for future confiscation. 

People get very emotional about gun violence.  The odds of your child getting gunned down in school are infinitesimal.  Without access to a gun, suicidal people will hang, overdose, drown or use other means.

Well I'm sorry that conservatives feel that way, but unless there is a nationalized registry these registries don't do squat. And because of the 2nd amendment a setup for future confiscation is also "infinitesimal". And tell the "odds are" to all the parents of kids who have already been gunned down mmkay?

And your last statement is factually incorrect and a myth. People have favored ways of killing themselves. If that favored mean is removed the odds of suicide go drastically down. That is why if a person is suicidal and has guns in the home, they are removed. It saves lives.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #977 on: September 20, 2019, 06:53:08 PM »
The New York Times had an interesting audio segment reported by the Daily, about Elizabeth Warren's increasing popularity as demonstrated by the large turnout at her rallies.

Anatomy of a Warren Rally
https://nyti.ms/2Nx0jnp

secondcor521

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #978 on: September 20, 2019, 10:52:39 PM »
de Blasio's out.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #979 on: September 21, 2019, 04:38:42 PM »
The New York Times had an interesting audio segment reported by the Daily, about Elizabeth Warren's increasing popularity as demonstrated by the large turnout at her rallies.

Anatomy of a Warren Rally
https://nyti.ms/2Nx0jnp

This looks very good for her.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #980 on: September 22, 2019, 07:43:44 AM »
Trump is defending himself against the Ukraine allegations by deflecting hard onto Biden, and I don't see him retreating from that.  Which means a Biden nomination will go the way of the Hillary nomination: constant unjustified attacks alleging wrongdoing that are repeated so often that they not only start to stick with enough voters that they bring out Trump's vote and suppress Biden's but that they also turn nearly everyone off listening to anything to do with the election.

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #981 on: September 22, 2019, 12:45:07 PM »

Well, at least you are acknowledging the childishness of your behavior. But if you really think he warrants no further effort, I wonder at your expending further energy piling on even more childishness with “phony frat boy douche.”

And it's not childish to call Trump a cheeto? 

Anyway, phony frat boy douche is funny to us conservatives.  And probably accurate, too! 

My understanding of nicknames is that Alberto is Beto.  Robert is Bob. He's Irish.

From wikipedia: "Beto is a surname, and a nickname for the given names Alberto, Albertino, Berthony, Heriberto, Norberto, Roberto or Humberto. It occurs mostly in Portuguese- and Spanish-speaking countries and communities."

So Beto is also a nickname for Roberto, of which Robert is a minority cultural variation in El Paso.

If your name is Robert, and you take on the Latino version of your name for political purposes, that's being phony.
No arguing that he's a Texan though.
I doubt that O'Rourke grew up being called Beto by his parents.  Maybe I'm wrong?  But I doubt it.  He was probably little Robbie or Bobby.

Busting out the Spanish mid-speech is also political.

Did he have political aspirations when he was in diapers? Here's a photo of him from preschool.

It was originally posted to his Instagram. I recalled seeing it and found it again in this article:

https://www.expressnews.com/news/news_columnists/gilbert_garcia/article/Why-the-GOP-is-obsessed-with-O-Rourke-s-13195257.php

From the article as well:

"If you’re not convinced by the childhood photo of the sweater-clad O’Rourke, consider the recollections of former journalist Gary Scharrer, who worked for the El Paso Times in the 1980s.

During that time, Scharrer covered O’Rourke’s father, Pat, who served from 1978-82 as a county commissioner and from 1982-86 as county judge. Scharrer remembers a young Beto O’Rourke, then around 8 or 9 years old, tagging along with his father.

“He was introduced to me as ‘Beto.’ I knew him as ‘Beto,’” Scharrer said. “It’s absurd for anyone to suggest that it (the name) is a fabrication.”

« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:47:43 PM by Psychstache »

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #982 on: September 23, 2019, 09:29:27 AM »

Conservatives feel that nationalized gun registry is a setup for future confiscation. 

People get very emotional about gun violence.  The odds of your child getting gunned down in school are infinitesimal.  Without access to a gun, suicidal people will hang, overdose, drown or use other means.

Much like many (left, right and center) feel that strict voter ID laws are a setup to confiscate people's rights to vote. Yes, there is precedent for government trampling on the constitutional rights of individuals. I think that a registry would be used to remove firearms from individuals (and I hope that includes domestic abuse situations, or those who are psychotic). Whether that is used correctly requires a strong judiciary. The 4th amendment cases are handled through things like the FISA court. There is precedent for how to handle it.

As to how removal of guns would impact suicide rates... 1) guns are specifically recommended to be removed from the homes of those with depression because it is so quick and easy to use them on a transient whim even when not generally suicidal, 2) the GOP has blocked federal funds from being used to study firearm impacts on public health (eg suicide), we don't actually know in a rigorous way how firearm regulation would impact suicide rates.

partgypsy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #983 on: September 23, 2019, 10:50:46 AM »

Conservatives feel that nationalized gun registry is a setup for future confiscation. 

People get very emotional about gun violence.  The odds of your child getting gunned down in school are infinitesimal.  Without access to a gun, suicidal people will hang, overdose, drown or use other means.

Much like many (left, right and center) feel that strict voter ID laws are a setup to confiscate people's rights to vote. Yes, there is precedent for government trampling on the constitutional rights of individuals. I think that a registry would be used to remove firearms from individuals (and I hope that includes domestic abuse situations, or those who are psychotic). Whether that is used correctly requires a strong judiciary. The 4th amendment cases are handled through things like the FISA court. There is precedent for how to handle it.

As to how removal of guns would impact suicide rates... 1) guns are specifically recommended to be removed from the homes of those with depression because it is so quick and easy to use them on a transient whim even when not generally suicidal, 2) the GOP has blocked federal funds from being used to study firearm impacts on public health (eg suicide), we don't actually know in a rigorous way how firearm regulation would impact suicide rates.
At the VA if someone is depressed  yes they are asked to remove firearms from their home, have them locked up. Studies have found that someone who is in crisis who wants to kill themselves, if whatever method they have chosen to use (firearms, stockpiled pills, etc) is not available, actual rate of suicide goes way down So yes it works. In the VA often the focus is on guns because vets have them, know how to use them and are very "effective". But the landmark study in risk prevention was in Great Britain, where people's method of killing themselves was with stoves https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves-lives/
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 10:52:56 AM by partgypsy »

Just Joe

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #984 on: September 23, 2019, 02:59:59 PM »
A responsible gun owner wants there to be background checks, and doesn't mind if assault weapons with multiple magazine clips are banned.

That will not satisfy Dems.  As Kris said, that's a "starting point".  It will never stop and it's giving up inch by inch by inch until it's all gone.

We could keep going until the mass shootings stop anyhow. Ain't nobody doing mass shooting with muzzle loaders or revolvers.

LonerMatt

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #985 on: September 23, 2019, 06:01:15 PM »
I hope you guys sort out the gerrymandering and voter suppression rampant in your "democracy".

Hoenstly, the USA has a ton to learn from how Australia conducts elections. It boggles my mind was is 'legal' in the USA in terms of voting, etc, totally unacceptable and undemocractic to gerrymander so heavily, suppress voters, require onerous registrations, etc, all deliberately designed to disenfranchise black/lower-SES voters.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #986 on: September 24, 2019, 06:30:39 AM »
A responsible gun owner wants there to be background checks, and doesn't mind if assault weapons with multiple magazine clips are banned.

That will not satisfy Dems.  As Kris said, that's a "starting point".  It will never stop and it's giving up inch by inch by inch until it's all gone.

We could keep going until the mass shootings stop anyhow. Ain't nobody doing mass shooting with muzzle loaders or revolvers.

You can get a revolver with nine rounds, and, you're not going to get that far in controlling firearms.
I live in a state where there is a lot of hunting and it's part of the culture.  When my dad was fed as a child during WWII with venison that his grandmother canned, it's part of our family's history and we understand the practical purposes of guns for protection and hunting.  The 30-06 is a tool and a part of the family history and lifestyle.  It ain't going nowhere.  A handgun, a shotgun and a rifle are tools of self-sufficiency.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 07:00:02 AM by KBecks »

partgypsy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #987 on: September 24, 2019, 07:19:02 AM »
A responsible gun owner wants there to be background checks, and doesn't mind if assault weapons with multiple magazine clips are banned.

That will not satisfy Dems.  As Kris said, that's a "starting point".  It will never stop and it's giving up inch by inch by inch until it's all gone.

We could keep going until the mass shootings stop anyhow. Ain't nobody doing mass shooting with muzzle loaders or revolvers.

You can get a revolver with nine rounds, and, you're not going to get that far in controlling firearms.
I live in a state where there is a lot of hunting and it's part of the culture.  When my dad was fed as a child during WWII with venison that his grandmother canned, it's part of our family's history and we understand the practical purposes of guns for protection and hunting.  The 30-06 is a tool and a part of the family history and lifestyle.  It ain't going nowhere.  A handgun, a shotgun and a rifle are tools of self-sufficiency.

Exactly. No one is taking away people's handgun, family shooting rifle. Heck my ex has two that were handled down from his grandfather and grandmother (she has a lightweight birding gun).
But, the guy who shot up Las Vegas bought 33 guns (mostly rifles) in the 12 months before the shooting, as well as ? amount of ammo, and simply packed that all in his luggage going to his hotel room. None of what he did was illegal, but the police couldn't track what he was doing, until after the fact. Along with bump stocks he basically had automatic weapons with tons of ammo. From his hotel room he killed 58 people and wounded 851 others, many who will be living with permanent injuries. 

Do law abiding gun owners need 33 rifles in order to hunt? Because of the lack of registration and reporting, law enforcement only knows after the fact if someone is stockpiling guns or ammo.
It's not that gun owners are arguing the right to own a gun. It seems like instead they are saying they have the right to own as many guns as possible as well as any kind of high grade ammo available, with basically no working background checks or national registration, so that law enforcement cannot even do their job, because anything less than that  infringes on their "rights", F, the rest of us.  How is that being a responsible gun owner? It's not.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/10/04/las-vegas-shooter-bought-33-guns-last-12-months/730634001/
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 07:29:22 AM by partgypsy »

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #988 on: September 24, 2019, 07:29:01 AM »
I have 5 people in my family.  If we each own two rifles, two shotguns, two handguns, that's 30 guns. We don't own that many weapons, but, we could.  We might.  We might also own bow hunting equipment.  (I don't think that fishing is relevant, but many families have a lot of fishing gear too.) 

It starts to get rough when people start to say, you shouldn't have that.  You shouldn't have that much money.  You shouldn't have that big of a house, you shouldn't have that many cars, you shouldn't use that much electricity or fossil fuels, you shouldn't have that many children, you shouldn't drink that big of a soda, etc. etc. etc.   It starts to sound like the nanny state.

Red flag laws are a bit scary because they could be abused, but they might help. That said, people can do very mean things to one another. In my extended family, a husband had his wife committed to a mental institution against her will (years ago).  I have also seen divorce cases where people are out to damage each other as much as possible.  People can be very mean to each other.  I am not sure how to balance the protection vs. the freedoms, and so it is important to have judges who are not gun-grabbers or out to get people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_law#targetText=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20a,danger%20to%20others%20or%20themselves.

States that want this can pass these kinds of laws.

From the article you shared:
<i>Under federal law, gun stores are required to report multiple handgun purchases to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives but not multiple rifle purchases.</i>

I don't think that it's unreasonable to make a note if it seems that an individual is making a lot of firearms purchases, to where it seems unusual.  Of course, determined people will get firearms and diversify their buying and sources.  I wonder how well the handgun requirement has been working so far.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 07:35:48 AM by KBecks »

partgypsy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #989 on: September 24, 2019, 07:32:57 AM »
I have 5 people in my family.  If we each own two rifles, two shotguns, two handguns, that's 30 guns. We don't own that many weapons, but, we could.  We might.  We might also own bow hunting equipment.  (I don't think that fishing is relevant, but many families have a lot of fishing gear too.) 

Red flag laws are a bit scary because they could be abused, but they might help. That said, people can do very mean things to one another. In my extended family, a husband had his wife committed to a mental institution against her will (years ago).  I have also seen divorce cases where people are out to damage each other as much as possible.  People can be very mean to each other.  I am not sure how to balance the protection vs. the freedoms, and so it is important to have judges who are not gun-grabbers or out to get people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_law#targetText=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20a,danger%20to%20others%20or%20themselves.

States that want this can pass these kinds of laws.

Well until we have mass bow shooting sprees, or mass fishing equipment killing sprees, I don't think I'm concerned with those. As far as people being "mean" to each other, I saw far more incidents of women being killed due to domestic violence due to under reaction of the cops not wanting to be involved in a "domestic" situation, than the opposite. And I would think we would want to err on the side of caution, because the "harm" done of someone not being able to own a gun, is far less than the risk of someone getting killed due to domestic violence.  It's the saying "your rights end where my begin" my right to live or not be threatened superseeds your right to own a gun.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 07:35:54 AM by partgypsy »

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #990 on: September 24, 2019, 07:37:48 AM »
I agree that domestic violence is a big concern.  I think that it's going to be fairly clear evidence if there is a threat of domestic violence.

It is my understanding that often the victim does not want the cops to be involved in DV situations.  It's a difficult thing.  It looks like more than half of domestic violence homicides use firearms and twenty percent use blades. 

I think that a person with no history of criminal activity or psychological distress should be free to own guns.  And we err on the side of trusting people and freedom than confiscation.

The Boy Scouts of America teach Rifle Shooting and Shotgun Shooting because guns are tools of self-sufficiency.
https://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Rifle_Shooting
https://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Shotgun_Shooting




« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 07:46:09 AM by KBecks »

Secret Stache

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #991 on: September 24, 2019, 07:57:27 AM »
House Democrats are meeting this afternoon to discuss the case for impeachment.  I think they will probably ask for declassification or at least a congressional review of any communications between DJT and the Ukraine before calling for it but I wonder if any of it will stick.  But staying on topic, who would the GOP put up should something become of this latest issue?  I could see Pence stepping down just as LBJ did and the GOP putting someone up as a clean slate candidate.  Not sure if that would have any success but it would be interesting to watch.

KBecks

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #992 on: September 24, 2019, 08:04:14 AM »
It's so unlikely that it will happen.  Let's cross that bridge when we get to it.
If you want pure speculation I'll go with a home state team of Walker-Ryan.  It will never happen.

GuitarStv

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #993 on: September 24, 2019, 08:07:11 AM »
House Democrats are meeting this afternoon to discuss the case for impeachment.  I think they will probably ask for declassification or at least a congressional review of any communications between DJT and the Ukraine before calling for it but I wonder if any of it will stick.  But staying on topic, who would the GOP put up should something become of this latest issue?  I could see Pence stepping down just as LBJ did and the GOP putting someone up as a clean slate candidate.  Not sure if that would have any success but it would be interesting to watch.

I don't think Donald Trump would lose any support from Republicans if he was impeached.  They haven't cared about the other mountains of evidence of misbehaviour, so why start now?  If he's impeached and tossed out of office, I could see the Republicans running him again.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #994 on: September 24, 2019, 08:53:34 AM »
House Democrats are meeting this afternoon to discuss the case for impeachment.  I think they will probably ask for declassification or at least a congressional review of any communications between DJT and the Ukraine before calling for it but I wonder if any of it will stick.  But staying on topic, who would the GOP put up should something become of this latest issue?  I could see Pence stepping down just as LBJ did and the GOP putting someone up as a clean slate candidate.  Not sure if that would have any success but it would be interesting to watch.

I don't think Donald Trump would lose any support from Republicans if he was impeached.  They haven't cared about the other mountains of evidence of misbehaviour, so why start now?  If he's impeached and tossed out of office, I could see the Republicans running him again.


Agreed. At this point, The GOP are busily scribbling notes in their party’s playbook, gleefully learning all they can from how Trump has changed the landscape. They used to hide their lies and corruption. They’re learning now that conservative voters like it better when they just blatantly flaunt it.

You used to think that Republicans were good at lying to the people with a straight face before Trump? Buckle up. That’s nothing compared to what they’ll be like going forward. He’s their new patron saint.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #995 on: September 24, 2019, 08:59:20 AM »
I don't think Donald Trump would lose any support from Republicans if he was impeached.  They haven't cared about the other mountains of evidence of misbehaviour, so why start now?  If he's impeached and tossed out of office, I could see the Republicans running him again.
Clinton's approval numbers were the highest of his presidency after he was impeached. History could certainly repeat itself.

partgypsy

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #996 on: September 24, 2019, 09:00:09 AM »
I agree that domestic violence is a big concern.  I think that it's going to be fairly clear evidence if there is a threat of domestic violence.

It is my understanding that often the victim does not want the cops to be involved in DV situations.  It's a difficult thing.  It looks like more than half of domestic violence homicides use firearms and twenty percent use blades. 

I think that a person with no history of criminal activity or psychological distress should be free to own guns.  And we err on the side of trusting people and freedom than confiscation.

The Boy Scouts of America teach Rifle Shooting and Shotgun Shooting because guns are tools of self-sufficiency.
https://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Rifle_Shooting
https://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Shotgun_Shooting
I have no problem with boy scouts teaching safe shooting skills as well as learning target shooting. What that has to do with domestic violence, not sure. 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 09:01:46 AM by partgypsy »

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #997 on: September 24, 2019, 09:37:23 AM »
I agree that domestic violence is a big concern.  I think that it's going to be fairly clear evidence if there is a threat of domestic violence.

It is my understanding that often the victim does not want the cops to be involved in DV situations.  It's a difficult thing.  It looks like more than half of domestic violence homicides use firearms and twenty percent use blades. 

I think that a person with no history of criminal activity or psychological distress should be free to own guns.  And we err on the side of trusting people and freedom than confiscation.

The Boy Scouts of America teach Rifle Shooting and Shotgun Shooting because guns are tools of self-sufficiency.
https://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Rifle_Shooting
https://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Shotgun_Shooting
I have no problem with boy scouts teaching safe shooting skills as well as learning target shooting. What that has to do with domestic violence, not sure.

Isn't it obvious? The Boy Scouts teach responsible gun ownership and a family of 5 could plausibly accumulate 30 guns over time, therefore a national registry = confiscation of all guns and we should have no limits on how many or what kind of guns we can buy. /s

Anyway, this conversation was sparked by Beto O'Rourke's comment. Do any of the candidates with a real shot at the nomination have a plan regarding firearms that anyone here would like to support or discuss?

ETA: I would support Warren's plan to put significant money into gun violence research. This is in no way a restriction on gun ownership, only a move to gather information with which we can make better decisions. I wonder if gun rights activists can still find a way to claim it's a conspiracy?

Her plan to raise taxes on the sale of guns/ammunition and to raise the minimum age to buy a gun I'm less certain about but mostly because I don't know much about them. They may very well be good ideas but I'd need to understand the potential impacts better before I support such measures. Requiring a license to own a gun is probably a good idea but I'd prefer a national registry as I think the licensing approach would be much more difficult to pass and enact.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 10:20:03 AM by Dabnasty »

wenchsenior

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #998 on: September 24, 2019, 10:17:22 AM »
I don't think Donald Trump would lose any support from Republicans if he was impeached.  They haven't cared about the other mountains of evidence of misbehaviour, so why start now?  If he's impeached and tossed out of office, I could see the Republicans running him again.
Clinton's approval numbers were the highest of his presidency after he was impeached. History could certainly repeat itself.

The numbers aren't there to remove Trump from office, and any attempt to impeach would likely just consolidate the softer elements of Trump's support in support of him, which means pursuing impeachment would likely mean the Dems torpedo their chances of winning the presidency (and put the House, otherwise quite safe, at risk as well).  I actually think even TALKING about impeaching Trump, esp as we get closer to the election, puts the Dems at risk.

I am absolutely against pursuing impeachment for purely practical reasons,  though I absolutely think Trump deserves it.  The risk isn't worth the gain, esp with only a year left to go before election. But the Dems are typically absolute morons when it comes to strategy, so it's possible they'll try it anyway.

talltexan

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #999 on: September 24, 2019, 11:34:38 AM »
I don't think Donald Trump would lose any support from Republicans if he was impeached.  They haven't cared about the other mountains of evidence of misbehaviour, so why start now?  If he's impeached and tossed out of office, I could see the Republicans running him again.
Clinton's approval numbers were the highest of his presidency after he was impeached. History could certainly repeat itself.

Clinton was impeached at a moment--December 1998--when the economy was the strongest ever, and it looked like we were going to run budget surpluses. His approval rating had more to do with other achievements as a President than the impeachment.