Author Topic: 2020 POTUS Candidates  (Read 277905 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2750 on: March 27, 2020, 10:51:47 AM »
I DO NOT CARE what Biden did or didnít do xx years ago.

You should.  This should be investigated and he should be held accountable if wrongdoing occurred.

bacchi

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2751 on: March 27, 2020, 10:59:03 AM »
If more accusations from other women come forward I definitely think it could doom Biden's primary bid.

Oh, FFS

We are in a DESPERATE situation with the current administration, led by someone who has committed and continues to commit multiple heinous acts.

I DO NOT CARE what Biden did or didnít do xx years ago.

See, I was wondering if this would come out. I'm hoping other liberals will come out and condemn this mindset or it's going to shine a whole new light of hypocrisy on the Kavanough hearings (a big deal to me because it marked a turning point in my political mindset seeing how conservatives I knew handled the situation).

What are you looking for?

If he did this, is it wrong? Yes.
Is it concerning? Yes.
Should it be investigated? Yes.

Currently, though, we have a President that has admitted to sexual assault vs a candidate that is accused of sexual assault.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2752 on: March 27, 2020, 11:06:29 AM »
This Biden accusation is being pushed heavily by the Bernie people.

Still thinking of leaving the country when I can.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2753 on: March 27, 2020, 11:08:10 AM »
If more accusations from other women come forward I definitely think it could doom Biden's primary bid.

Oh, FFS

We are in a DESPERATE situation with the current administration, led by someone who has committed and continues to commit multiple heinous acts.

I DO NOT CARE what Biden did or didnít do xx years ago.

See, I was wondering if this would come out. I'm hoping other liberals will come out and condemn this mindset or it's going to shine a whole new light of hypocrisy on the Kavanough hearings (a big deal to me because it marked a turning point in my political mindset seeing how conservatives I knew handled the situation).

What are you looking for?

If he did this, is it wrong? Yes.
Is it concerning? Yes.
Should it be investigated? Yes.

Currently, though, we have a President that has admitted to sexual assault vs a candidate that is accused of sexual assault.

I don't disagree with anything you posted below the question. I didn't post any expectations until OaH's post.

I was wondering if anyone would say literally almost exactly what OaH said - "expletive, who the heck cares if he actually did it, fill in the blank is more important so if Biden sexually assaulted someone it doesn't matter."

What I want - no what I expect is for liberals to not say this and if any liberal says it for other liberals to vehemently oppose that mindset. It's not a high bar of expectation.

sherr

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2754 on: March 27, 2020, 11:16:44 AM »
If more accusations from other women come forward I definitely think it could doom Biden's primary bid.

Oh, FFS

We are in a DESPERATE situation with the current administration, led by someone who has committed and continues to commit multiple heinous acts.

I DO NOT CARE what Biden did or didnít do xx years ago.

See, I was wondering if this would come out. I'm hoping other liberals will come out and condemn this mindset or it's going to shine a whole new light of hypocrisy on the Kavanough hearings (a big deal to me because it marked a turning point in my political mindset seeing how conservatives I knew handled the situation).

What are you looking for?

If he did this, is it wrong? Yes.
Is it concerning? Yes.
Should it be investigated? Yes.

Currently, though, we have a President that has admitted to sexual assault vs a candidate that is accused of sexual assault.

Additionally Kavanough's accuser had the validatable parts of her story validated many times, and she had told people about it long before Kavanough was a household name. As far as I can tell, Ms Reade only accused Biden of "putting his hand on my shoulder/neck" last year when he started his precedential campaign, and only just now has updated her story to include the sexual assault / rape.

I don't think "always believe every accuser" has ever been seriously said outside of Tumbler, in spite of what the Republican backlash says. Should this be taken seriously and investigated? Of course! But right now these are not even remotely comparable situations.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2755 on: March 27, 2020, 11:17:14 AM »
My thoughts are that I'm wishing Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobechar hadn't withdrawn from the race (and that Bernie Sanders had).
To that point, any chance of an "un-withdrawing"?

Absolutely, Buttigieg and Klobechar have only suspended their campaigns. Of course, for that to happen something would probably have to happen to Biden.

But, and I really don't mean this to be snarky, but aren't the Democrats supposed to be all about believe the accuser at all times. Shouldn't this be an immediate disqualification for Biden. I'm not unbiased on this. I'd rather have Pete than Biden. I'd really, though, rather not have Bernie, so worst case for me is for it to get towards the end, more to come out, and Biden to get pushed out leaving Bernie as the front runner.

No, absolutely not. Where did you get that idea?

However we also should not dismiss accusations simply because we don't want them to be true. All evidence should be taken into account and the situation should be investigated thoroughly. In a case where it comes down to a claim without evidence we should not believe or disbelieve the accusations, we should simply accept that we don't know and may never know the truth.

As for whether or not this would disqualify Biden if it were proven to be true, that gets a bit more tricky. Ideally, it would and another candidate would take his place but if the choice comes down to Biden vs. Trump, Biden would still get my vote. It's a vote against Trump, not for Biden.




Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2756 on: March 27, 2020, 11:23:00 AM »
If more accusations from other women come forward I definitely think it could doom Biden's primary bid.

Oh, FFS

We are in a DESPERATE situation with the current administration, led by someone who has committed and continues to commit multiple heinous acts.

I DO NOT CARE what Biden did or didnít do xx years ago.

See, I was wondering if this would come out. I'm hoping other liberals will come out and condemn this mindset or it's going to shine a whole new light of hypocrisy on the Kavanough hearings (a big deal to me because it marked a turning point in my political mindset seeing how conservatives I knew handled the situation).

What are you looking for?

If he did this, is it wrong? Yes.
Is it concerning? Yes.
Should it be investigated? Yes.

Currently, though, we have a President that has admitted to sexual assault vs a candidate that is accused of sexual assault.

I don't disagree with anything you posted below the question. I didn't post any expectations until OaH's post.

I was wondering if anyone would say literally almost exactly what OaH said - "expletive, who the heck cares if he actually did it, fill in the blank is more important so if Biden sexually assaulted someone it doesn't matter."

What I want - no what I expect is for liberals to not say this and if any liberal says it for other liberals to vehemently oppose that mindset. It's not a high bar of expectation.

I do care and to anyone who says they don't, I vehemently oppose that mindset.

That said, an accusation alone does not and should not disqualify anyone.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2757 on: March 27, 2020, 11:34:24 AM »
My thoughts are that I'm wishing Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobechar hadn't withdrawn from the race (and that Bernie Sanders had).
To that point, any chance of an "un-withdrawing"?

Absolutely, Buttigieg and Klobechar have only suspended their campaigns. Of course, for that to happen something would probably have to happen to Biden.

But, and I really don't mean this to be snarky, but aren't the Democrats supposed to be all about believe the accuser at all times. Shouldn't this be an immediate disqualification for Biden. I'm not unbiased on this. I'd rather have Pete than Biden. I'd really, though, rather not have Bernie, so worst case for me is for it to get towards the end, more to come out, and Biden to get pushed out leaving Bernie as the front runner.

No, absolutely not. Where did you get that idea?

However we also should not dismiss accusations simply because we don't want them to be true. All evidence should be taken into account and the situation should be investigated thoroughly. In a case where it comes down to a claim without evidence we should not believe or disbelieve the accusations, we should simply accept that we don't know and may never know the truth.

As for whether or not this would disqualify Biden if it were proven to be true, that gets a bit more tricky. Ideally, it would and another candidate would take his place but if the choice comes down to Biden vs. Trump, Biden would still get my vote. It's a vote against Trump, not for Biden.

I'm having a hard time buying that. I'll go back to the Kavanaugh situation, and I get what sherr says, although I think she overstates her case that they're not "remotely" comparable. It may not have been explicitly stated that way and it was never implied that I remember in a criminally culpable way that the accuser should be believed by default, but it was sure as heck implied in a general way the concept of believe the accuser as default. I could go back to some threads on this very board where people were very much saying something to the effect of, this hasn't been proven and at this stage can never be proven from a reasonable doubt standpoint, but this guy - Kavanaugh - is applying for the highest office in the land. There's an accuser who says he sexually assaulted her, we can surely find someone who isn't accused of that to nominate. That's not explicitly saying what I said, but it's sure as heck not that far away from some serious implicit linkages.

Finally, I'll reiterate that no one with the exception of Guitarstv has said anything remotely condemning of what OaH said. If someone after Trump's Access Hollywood thing came out had come on this board and said Obama's doing this or that or whatever, and it's way too important that we get someone that won't do it so I don't care if Trump did it, he would have been roasted within an inch of his life. Shoot, even the conservatives I know who supported Trump didn't say that - they naively or for lack of caring said that Trump didn't mean what he said. I get it. I get it. Trump's done much worse things than Obama has. But to use OaH's own expression for @%$# sake, OaH is saying I don't care if Biden did rape someone, we've got to look past it. I mean seriously, no one's willing to blatantly condemn that? Political expediency trumps all, I guess...don't know why I should be surprised.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2758 on: March 27, 2020, 11:44:30 AM »
If more accusations from other women come forward I definitely think it could doom Biden's primary bid.

Oh, FFS

We are in a DESPERATE situation with the current administration, led by someone who has committed and continues to commit multiple heinous acts.

I DO NOT CARE what Biden did or didnít do xx years ago.

See, I was wondering if this would come out. I'm hoping other liberals will come out and condemn this mindset or it's going to shine a whole new light of hypocrisy on the Kavanough hearings (a big deal to me because it marked a turning point in my political mindset seeing how conservatives I knew handled the situation).

What are you looking for?

If he did this, is it wrong? Yes.
Is it concerning? Yes.
Should it be investigated? Yes.

Currently, though, we have a President that has admitted to sexual assault vs a candidate that is accused of sexual assault.

I don't disagree with anything you posted below the question. I didn't post any expectations until OaH's post.

I was wondering if anyone would say literally almost exactly what OaH said - "expletive, who the heck cares if he actually did it, fill in the blank is more important so if Biden sexually assaulted someone it doesn't matter."

What I want - no what I expect is for liberals to not say this and if any liberal says it for other liberals to vehemently oppose that mindset. It's not a high bar of expectation.

I do care and to anyone who says they don't, I vehemently oppose that mindset.

That said, an accusation alone does not and should not disqualify anyone.

I was looking for someone to read that with the same shock and horror as I did and respond directly to OaH that this statement is not OK. I didn't expect me to have to point it out for someone to do it. Instead of someone actually condemning it (except Guitarstv), my statements have been the ones coming under scrutiny as opposed to that horrific statement. That's kind of what I was expecting.

ETA: not that I mind dialogue about it at all. It just feels like my statements are being picked apart a little - sherr's comments about how my comparison is not right, for example, compared to silence on the other end.

ETA2: I don't think it should disqualify him at this stage either. It's too new and hasn't been investigated. I'm more afraid it will explode closer to time where Pete or someone like him won't have time to step back in and we're stuck with Bernie or Trump because he's too nutty to beat even Trump.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 11:48:39 AM by Wolfpack Mustachian »

sherr

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2759 on: March 27, 2020, 11:50:31 AM »
Finally, I'll reiterate that no one with the exception of Guitarstv has said anything remotely condemning of what OaH said.

That's just not true, everyone has been disagreeing with OaH. But if that's not clear enough for you:

Oh, FFS

We are in a DESPERATE situation with the current administration, led by someone who has committed and continues to commit multiple heinous acts.

I DO NOT CARE what Biden did or didnít do xx years ago.

Plus, based on the link posted above: not a reputable major news source, a questionable accuser with vague accusations, and ALMOST THIRTY YEARS AGO.

Fuck this. And if Biden raped someone then fuck him to. I will not stoop low enough to support a rapist for any reason. I'm not a Republican.

And not that it matters, but FYI I'm a man. I guess I have a feminine-sounding handle, but it's actually just firstinitial-lastname. I chose that to remind myself that nothing on the internet is truly anonymous, and that if someone really wanted to they could track down my real-life identity and tie me to what I've said here. It's a reminder to never say something online that I would have a problem agreeing with in real life. This post included.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2760 on: March 27, 2020, 11:52:03 AM »
My thoughts are that I'm wishing Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobechar hadn't withdrawn from the race (and that Bernie Sanders had).
To that point, any chance of an "un-withdrawing"?

Absolutely, Buttigieg and Klobechar have only suspended their campaigns. Of course, for that to happen something would probably have to happen to Biden.

But, and I really don't mean this to be snarky, but aren't the Democrats supposed to be all about believe the accuser at all times. Shouldn't this be an immediate disqualification for Biden. I'm not unbiased on this. I'd rather have Pete than Biden. I'd really, though, rather not have Bernie, so worst case for me is for it to get towards the end, more to come out, and Biden to get pushed out leaving Bernie as the front runner.

No, absolutely not. Where did you get that idea?

However we also should not dismiss accusations simply because we don't want them to be true. All evidence should be taken into account and the situation should be investigated thoroughly. In a case where it comes down to a claim without evidence we should not believe or disbelieve the accusations, we should simply accept that we don't know and may never know the truth.

As for whether or not this would disqualify Biden if it were proven to be true, that gets a bit more tricky. Ideally, it would and another candidate would take his place but if the choice comes down to Biden vs. Trump, Biden would still get my vote. It's a vote against Trump, not for Biden.

I'm having a hard time buying that. I'll go back to the Kavanaugh situation, and I get what sherr says, although I think she overstates her case that they're not "remotely" comparable. It may not have been explicitly stated that way and it was never implied that I remember in a criminally culpable way that the accuser should be believed by default, but it was sure as heck implied in a general way the concept of believe the accuser as default.

to say I "believe" someone is more complex than a binary statement. I believe women who make accusations in that I don't automatically assume they are lying. However I give that same benefit of doubt to the accused. The position between belief/disbelief is nuanced and the media does not handle nuance well.


Quote
I could go back to some threads on this very board where people were very much saying something to the effect of, this hasn't been proven and at this stage can never be proven from a reasonable doubt standpoint, but this guy - Kavanaugh - is applying for the highest office in the land. There's an accuser who says he sexually assaulted her, we can surely find someone who isn't accused of that to nominate. That's not explicitly saying what I said, but it's sure as heck not that far away from some serious implicit linkages.

If someone took this position based purely on the accusation, then they were wrong. But again, there was much more than an accusation in the case of Kavanaugh. That includes his response and behavior after the accusation.

Also, the stakes are not the same. Kavanaugh could have been replaced by another conservative approved candidate and approved by a Republican senate. The presidential race is much more complicated.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2761 on: March 27, 2020, 12:00:14 PM »
I was looking for someone to read that with the same shock and horror as I did and respond directly to OaH that this statement is not OK. I didn't expect me to have to point it out for someone to do it. Instead of someone actually condemning it (except Guitarstv), my statements have been the ones coming under scrutiny as opposed to that horrific statement. That's kind of what I was expecting.

I read your post first so I responded to it first.

My first reaction to the "I don't care" post was confusion. I don't even comprehend that position.

Perhaps @OzzieandHarriet meant they will still vote for him because the alternative is so much worse?

Hopefully they will elaborate on their position.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2762 on: March 27, 2020, 12:10:46 PM »
Finally, I'll reiterate that no one with the exception of Guitarstv has said anything remotely condemning of what OaH said.

That's just not true, everyone has been disagreeing with OaH. But if that's not clear enough for you:

Oh, FFS

We are in a DESPERATE situation with the current administration, led by someone who has committed and continues to commit multiple heinous acts.

I DO NOT CARE what Biden did or didnít do xx years ago.

Plus, based on the link posted above: not a reputable major news source, a questionable accuser with vague accusations, and ALMOST THIRTY YEARS AGO.

Fuck this. And if Biden raped someone then fuck him to. I will not stoop low enough to support a rapist for any reason. I'm not a Republican.

And not that it matters, but FYI I'm a man. I guess I have a feminine-sounding handle, but it's actually just firstinitial-lastname. I chose that to remind myself that nothing on the internet is truly anonymous, and that if someone really wanted to they could track down my real-life identity and tie me to what I've said here. It's a reminder to never say something online that I would have a problem agreeing with in real life. This post included.

I went through each post, and I'm really, legitimately confused as to what you're meaning that everyone has been disagreeing with OaH.  V8rx, I have no idea how to take their comment. Guitarstv condemned it. Bacci questioned what I was wanting but the response could be summed up as if he did it, it is wrong and should be investigated (not that it's disqualifying, just wrong). You said if it happened it was wrong and should be investigated. Davnasty kind of sort of a little actually agreed with OaH, saying less forcefully that even if it was true they would still vote for Biden over Trump. In summary, some actually said explicitly that rape was wrong, but your statement that everyone was disagreeing with OaH is simply not supported by the actual thread.

Then last, we have this post. So thanks for actively condemning it now. However, given the small anecdotal size of this thread, your vehement opposition doesn't seem to be shared, so maybe you should take back your Republican insult...

P.S. good idea on the user name. It's a solid reminder to us all.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2763 on: March 27, 2020, 12:12:55 PM »
I was looking for someone to read that with the same shock and horror as I did and respond directly to OaH that this statement is not OK. I didn't expect me to have to point it out for someone to do it. Instead of someone actually condemning it (except Guitarstv), my statements have been the ones coming under scrutiny as opposed to that horrific statement. That's kind of what I was expecting.

I read your post first so I responded to it first.

My first reaction to the "I don't care" post was confusion. I don't even comprehend that position.

Perhaps @OzzieandHarriet meant they will still vote for him because the alternative is so much worse?

Hopefully they will elaborate on their position.

Fair enough, it all got out of order. I will say that even if that is OaH's view (and yours, if I'm reading your post correctly), that's still quite a statement to make and people making it, IMO, lose a lot of credibility when criticizing people for voting for Trump despite his many ethical and moral failings (policy stuff excluded).

ETA: I re-thought about this one. All credibility. All credibility is lost to ever criticize anyone for voting for someone who has done something abhorrent in the past. If rape isn't a bar for someone doing something evil that disqualifies them from being elected to the highest office in the land, then nothing will.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 12:17:52 PM by Wolfpack Mustachian »

bacchi

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2764 on: March 27, 2020, 12:26:43 PM »
Bacci questioned what I was wanting but the response could be summed up as if he did it, it is wrong and should be investigated (not that it's disqualifying, just wrong).

Reading comprehension is important.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2765 on: March 27, 2020, 12:39:11 PM »
I was looking for someone to read that with the same shock and horror as I did and respond directly to OaH that this statement is not OK. I didn't expect me to have to point it out for someone to do it. Instead of someone actually condemning it (except Guitarstv), my statements have been the ones coming under scrutiny as opposed to that horrific statement. That's kind of what I was expecting.

I read your post first so I responded to it first.

My first reaction to the "I don't care" post was confusion. I don't even comprehend that position.

Perhaps @OzzieandHarriet meant they will still vote for him because the alternative is so much worse?

Hopefully they will elaborate on their position.

Fair enough, it all got out of order. I will say that even if that is OaH's view (and yours, if I'm reading your post correctly), that's still quite a statement to make and people making it, IMO, lose a lot of credibility when criticizing people for voting for Trump despite his many ethical and moral failings (policy stuff excluded).

ETA: I re-thought about this one. All credibility. All credibility is lost to ever criticize anyone for voting for someone who has done something abhorrent in the past. If rape isn't a bar for someone doing something evil that disqualifies them from being elected to the highest office in the land, then nothing will.

I'll never feel good about casting my vote for a lesser evil, but I'll still do it. Even if this accusation were proven true, Biden has a long way to go before he matches Trump's moral and ethical failings. If I could only choose between a murderer and a thief to babysit or leave it up to chance, I would choose the thief and not be very happy about the situation.

ETA: Again, my position assumes a situation where there are only two choices. In such a situation, the only bar is the other candidate.

sherr

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2766 on: March 27, 2020, 12:40:02 PM »
Fuck this. And if Biden raped someone then fuck him to. I will not stoop low enough to support a rapist for any reason. I'm not a Republican.
Then last, we have this post. So thanks for actively condemning it now. However, given the small anecdotal size of this thread, your vehement opposition doesn't seem to be shared, so maybe you should take back your Republican insult...

No. After Trump, Moore, and Kavanaugh the "Republican insult" is warranted regardless of whatever else Democrats do here or in the future.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2767 on: March 27, 2020, 01:11:08 PM »
Bacci questioned what I was wanting but the response could be summed up as if he did it, it is wrong and should be investigated (not that it's disqualifying, just wrong).

Reading comprehension is important.

See, insults like that aren't helpful. It's even less helpful when you're in the wrong and still insulting others. Please inform me oh wise one what in these statements:

"What are you looking for?

If he did this, is it wrong? Yes.
Is it concerning? Yes.
Should it be investigated? Yes.

Currently, though, we have a President that has admitted to sexual assault vs a candidate that is accused of sexual assault."

condemned what OaH said. You said if Biden did it, it's wrong and concerning....I guess that's a little bit better than saying FFS, who cares. It's certainly not a condemnation of what OaH said, which was the whole point of my question. Will anyone condemn the mentality of OaH's statement? Sherr did it finally when prompted. Can you please explain what you mean, or would you rather just throw out insults? I get it that the insults are easier, so stick with those if you'd like.

sherr

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2768 on: March 27, 2020, 01:14:26 PM »
Will anyone condemn the mentality of OaH's statement? Sherr did it finally when prompted.

I also pointed out that I think that everyone was disagreeing with OaH, just not necessarily "condemning the mentality" to the degree that you are demanding. Everyone is saying some variation of "no, it does actually matter...".

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2769 on: March 27, 2020, 01:17:39 PM »
I was looking for someone to read that with the same shock and horror as I did and respond directly to OaH that this statement is not OK. I didn't expect me to have to point it out for someone to do it. Instead of someone actually condemning it (except Guitarstv), my statements have been the ones coming under scrutiny as opposed to that horrific statement. That's kind of what I was expecting.

I read your post first so I responded to it first.

My first reaction to the "I don't care" post was confusion. I don't even comprehend that position.

Perhaps @OzzieandHarriet meant they will still vote for him because the alternative is so much worse?

Hopefully they will elaborate on their position.

Fair enough, it all got out of order. I will say that even if that is OaH's view (and yours, if I'm reading your post correctly), that's still quite a statement to make and people making it, IMO, lose a lot of credibility when criticizing people for voting for Trump despite his many ethical and moral failings (policy stuff excluded).

ETA: I re-thought about this one. All credibility. All credibility is lost to ever criticize anyone for voting for someone who has done something abhorrent in the past. If rape isn't a bar for someone doing something evil that disqualifies them from being elected to the highest office in the land, then nothing will.

I'll never feel good about casting my vote for a lesser evil, but I'll still do it. Even if this accusation were proven true, Biden has a long way to go before he matches Trump's moral and ethical failings. If I could only choose between a murderer and a thief to babysit or leave it up to chance, I would choose the thief and not be very happy about the situation.

ETA: Again, my position assumes a situation where there are only two choices. In such a situation, the only bar is the other candidate.

I'm not even saying you shouldn't do that. I'm just saying, anyone who did forfeits all high ground to criticize non-political life actions/crime/reprehensible things committed by any presidential candidate outside of policy decisions. Also, you compare this as murder to theft. This is sexual assault to sexual assault. I'm not aware of anything Trump was accused of doing prior to his presidency that was worse than rape.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2770 on: March 27, 2020, 01:29:40 PM »
Fuck this. And if Biden raped someone then fuck him to. I will not stoop low enough to support a rapist for any reason. I'm not a Republican.
Then last, we have this post. So thanks for actively condemning it now. However, given the small anecdotal size of this thread, your vehement opposition doesn't seem to be shared, so maybe you should take back your Republican insult...

No. After Trump, Moore, and Kavanaugh the "Republican insult" is warranted regardless of whatever else Democrats do here or in the future.

You can think what you want, but someone voting for Biden assuming the sexual assault is proven loses you the Republican insult. As I mentioned before, even Trump's supporters tried to at least claim that he didn't mean what he said - i.e. they at least pretended that they didn't believe it was true. If Biden's was truly proven then he's equivalent to Kavanaugh. Moore is bad as well, but even in that case it wasn't like there was a groundswell of universal "republican" support. For pete's sake the man lost in Alabama because it was so bad, so to declare it as the equivalent of Democrats in general voting for Biden is off base. So, again, think what you will, but no, there is no teeth in an insult of Republicans if Democrats push this.

bacchi

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2771 on: March 27, 2020, 01:31:35 PM »
You said if Biden did it, it's wrong and concerning....I guess that's a little bit better than saying FFS, who cares. It's certainly not a condemnation of what OaH said, which was the whole point of my question. Will anyone condemn the mentality of OaH's statement? Sherr did it finally when prompted. Can you please explain what you mean, or would you rather just throw out insults? I get it that the insults are easier, so stick with those if you'd like.

It wasn't an insult. It was a statement of fact. That's exactly what I wrote; no more, no less. Don't infer what I didn't imply.

It seems you're more aggrieved that I didn't ask "How high?" when you told me to "Jump!"

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2772 on: March 27, 2020, 01:38:38 PM »
Will anyone condemn the mentality of OaH's statement? Sherr did it finally when prompted.

I also pointed out that I think that everyone was disagreeing with OaH, just not necessarily "condemning the mentality" to the degree that you are demanding. Everyone is saying some variation of "no, it does actually matter...".

My statement that no one was remotely condemning was too extreme because of the remotely part. Yes, anyone saying that it's even slightly concerning is technically remotely going against OaH's statement. And you're right, I am demanding more than just a general "it does matter, just not enough". That's not enough condemnation to someone that literally says I don't care if someone raped someone else. It doesn't matter. This mentality has about made me so fed up with politics I'm about to embrace Boris (whatever his MMM name is)'s policy of not ever voting ever or at least in national elections.  I'm so sick of justifications like this. It's always the worst thing ever. There's always a unicorn/black swan/insane situation that merits overlooking truly abhorent things in this or that candidate to vote for them over the other except it's only gotten worse and worse. And these last exchanges in this thread are case in point that no one has any high ground on this whatsoever for either side. I'm truly at a loss.

sherr

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2773 on: March 27, 2020, 01:40:07 PM »
Fuck this. And if Biden raped someone then fuck him to. I will not stoop low enough to support a rapist for any reason. I'm not a Republican.
Then last, we have this post. So thanks for actively condemning it now. However, given the small anecdotal size of this thread, your vehement opposition doesn't seem to be shared, so maybe you should take back your Republican insult...

No. After Trump, Moore, and Kavanaugh the "Republican insult" is warranted regardless of whatever else Democrats do here or in the future.

You can think what you want, but someone voting for Biden assuming the sexual assault is proven loses you the Republican insult. As I mentioned before, even Trump's supporters tried to at least claim that he didn't mean what he said - i.e. they at least pretended that they didn't believe it was true. If Biden's was truly proven then he's equivalent to Kavanaugh. Moore is bad as well, but even in that case it wasn't like there was a groundswell of universal "republican" support. For pete's sake the man lost in Alabama because it was so bad, so to declare it as the equivalent of Democrats in general voting for Biden is off base. So, again, think what you will, but no, there is no teeth in an insult of Republicans if Democrats push this.

You think what you want too. IF upon investigation this becomes A LOT more credible and IF Democrats vote for Biden anyway (two huge "if"s), all that would do is demonstrate that the Democrats have stooped to the same level as Republicans. It doesn't make the Republican level any less low.

I don't see it happening, even in the face of letting the Republicans re-elect Trump. Democrats are the party that forced hover-hands-over-boobs-for-a-"joke" Franken to resign just a few months before the Kavenaugh hearings happened. The two parties are not the same.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2774 on: March 27, 2020, 01:46:18 PM »
You said if Biden did it, it's wrong and concerning....I guess that's a little bit better than saying FFS, who cares. It's certainly not a condemnation of what OaH said, which was the whole point of my question. Will anyone condemn the mentality of OaH's statement? Sherr did it finally when prompted. Can you please explain what you mean, or would you rather just throw out insults? I get it that the insults are easier, so stick with those if you'd like.

It wasn't an insult. It was a statement of fact. That's exactly what I wrote; no more, no less. Don't infer what I didn't imply.

It seems you're more aggrieved that I didn't ask "How high?" when you told me to "Jump!"

Lol, whatever dude. Questioning someone's reading comprehension (ETA and simply commenting reading comprehension is important as the entirety of a reply is pretty much defacto accusing the person who made the reply of not using reading comprehension) instead of actually pointing out what you're talking about is an insult. That actually is a statement of fact. Calling an insult a statement of fact to prove it's not an insult is something that would be used on the school yard (ha ha I didn't insult him by calling him a fat idiot, i'm just telling the truth).

Sherr commented that there was this underlying disagreement with what OaH said in the thread. I was pretty clear in the beginning. Yes, I'm aggrieved that people didn't vocally condemn someone's statement saying that they didn't care if someone else raped someone in the past because it paled in comparison to the "stakes at hand." And no, there was no or almost no disagreement with that in your statement. Because to disagree implies you're disagreeing with the whole statement that you do care and you care even with the stakes at hand. You saying it was "wrong and concerning" does not fit into that criteria. So...yeah...
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 01:49:10 PM by Wolfpack Mustachian »

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2775 on: March 27, 2020, 01:47:57 PM »
Fuck this. And if Biden raped someone then fuck him to. I will not stoop low enough to support a rapist for any reason. I'm not a Republican.
Then last, we have this post. So thanks for actively condemning it now. However, given the small anecdotal size of this thread, your vehement opposition doesn't seem to be shared, so maybe you should take back your Republican insult...

No. After Trump, Moore, and Kavanaugh the "Republican insult" is warranted regardless of whatever else Democrats do here or in the future.

You can think what you want, but someone voting for Biden assuming the sexual assault is proven loses you the Republican insult. As I mentioned before, even Trump's supporters tried to at least claim that he didn't mean what he said - i.e. they at least pretended that they didn't believe it was true. If Biden's was truly proven then he's equivalent to Kavanaugh. Moore is bad as well, but even in that case it wasn't like there was a groundswell of universal "republican" support. For pete's sake the man lost in Alabama because it was so bad, so to declare it as the equivalent of Democrats in general voting for Biden is off base. So, again, think what you will, but no, there is no teeth in an insult of Republicans if Democrats push this.

You think what you want too. IF upon investigation this becomes A LOT more credible and IF Democrats vote for Biden anyway (two huge "if"s), all that would do is demonstrate that the Democrats have stooped to the same level as Republicans. It doesn't make the Republican level any less low.

I don't see it happening, even in the face of letting the Republicans re-elect Trump. Democrats are the party that forced hover-hands-over-boobs-for-a-"joke" Franken to resign just a few months before the Kavenaugh hearings happened. The two parties are not the same.

That's fine, it's all hypotheticals at this point. Maybe you're right.

sui generis

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2776 on: March 27, 2020, 01:59:08 PM »
I'm just gonna pipe in with my disagreement with OaH as well.  I'm not ok with an unremediated rapist/assaulter, etc.  And most democrats are not.  Which is why the Bernie people (if indeed it is them) know it's an effective tactic to take down a Democrat, like Biden.  It is not an effective tactic to take down a Republican, because Rs largely do not care or some are actively more approving when that's discovered.  So, it's a dangerous situation we have brewing.  Before, digging up tales of sexual assault (whether true or fabricated) would be an effective tactic against either side, and so there was a good standoff and both sides would be hesitant to use it against the other.  Now, the Republicans have a tactic that they can exploit (again whether fabricated or not) that the Democrats cannot, lest they make their opponent MORE popular.  It's not a good situation.

I also want to explain that #BelieveWomen is not #BelieveEveryIndividualWomanOverTheAccused for a reason.  Because women have historically not been believed about anything that contradicts what a man says because women are "known" to be duplicitous and untrustworthy and liars (like Eve!  from the gosh-darned beginning) so if there is a conflict, you could just select who was right by gender.  Women would like to have a chance, as a group of people, to be seen as similarly believable to men.  Then, the facts and evidence and etc. play out as they may.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 02:11:40 PM by sui generis »

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2777 on: March 27, 2020, 02:08:05 PM »
I was looking for someone to read that with the same shock and horror as I did and respond directly to OaH that this statement is not OK. I didn't expect me to have to point it out for someone to do it. Instead of someone actually condemning it (except Guitarstv), my statements have been the ones coming under scrutiny as opposed to that horrific statement. That's kind of what I was expecting.

I read your post first so I responded to it first.

My first reaction to the "I don't care" post was confusion. I don't even comprehend that position.

Perhaps @OzzieandHarriet meant they will still vote for him because the alternative is so much worse?

Hopefully they will elaborate on their position.

Fair enough, it all got out of order. I will say that even if that is OaH's view (and yours, if I'm reading your post correctly), that's still quite a statement to make and people making it, IMO, lose a lot of credibility when criticizing people for voting for Trump despite his many ethical and moral failings (policy stuff excluded).

ETA: I re-thought about this one. All credibility. All credibility is lost to ever criticize anyone for voting for someone who has done something abhorrent in the past. If rape isn't a bar for someone doing something evil that disqualifies them from being elected to the highest office in the land, then nothing will.

I'll never feel good about casting my vote for a lesser evil, but I'll still do it. Even if this accusation were proven true, Biden has a long way to go before he matches Trump's moral and ethical failings. If I could only choose between a murderer and a thief to babysit or leave it up to chance, I would choose the thief and not be very happy about the situation.

ETA: Again, my position assumes a situation where there are only two choices. In such a situation, the only bar is the other candidate.

I'm not even saying you shouldn't do that. I'm just saying, anyone who did forfeits all high ground to criticize non-political life actions/crime/reprehensible things committed by any presidential candidate outside of policy decisions. Also, you compare this as murder to theft. This is sexual assault to sexual assault. I'm not aware of anything Trump was accused of doing prior to his presidency that was worse than rape.

Perhaps I should have compared one act to many.

However, Trump has been accused of raping 12/13 year olds with Epstein and those events were corroborated by Epstein's assistant. Charges were brought and then dropped on 2 separate occasions.

ETA: Regarding the bolded, your logic doesn't follow. I haven't said that non-political life actions/crime/reprehensible things are irrelevant, only that I would choose the lesser evil. All that really says about me is that I don't believe in abstaining from the vote as a form of protest.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 08:27:43 AM by Davnasty »

Poundwise

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2778 on: March 28, 2020, 12:39:31 AM »

Currently, though, we have a President that has admitted to sexual assault vs a candidate that is accused of sexual assault.

Just want to point out that we have a President who has not only admitted to sexual assault, but has also been accused of sexual assault, including rape, even rape of a minor, multiple times, probably dozens of times.

In fact, just looked this up... these are the named accusers.  https://www.businessinsider.com/women-accused-trump-sexual-misconduct-list-2017-12
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rape-sexual-assault-minor-wife-business-victims-roy-moore-713531

[edit to say whoops, just saw Davnasty's post]

pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2779 on: March 28, 2020, 07:24:11 AM »
Is there anything, anything at all, that Trump could do that would distance him from his supporters?

GuitarStv

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2780 on: March 28, 2020, 07:31:13 AM »
Is there anything, anything at all, that Trump could do that would distance him from his supporters?

I'm beginning to wonder if the only thing he could do to lose them is govern well.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2781 on: March 28, 2020, 08:45:39 AM »
Is there anything, anything at all, that Trump could do that would distance him from his supporters?

I donít think so. Because they wouldnít hear about it. Or if they did, it would be from a source that told them it was a liberal hoax.

sui generis

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2782 on: March 28, 2020, 08:51:35 AM »
Is there anything, anything at all, that Trump could do that would distance him from his supporters?

I donít think so. Because they wouldnít hear about it. Or if they did, it would be from a source that told them it was a liberal hoax.

Yep, the few Trump supporters in my feed are posting about all the new evidence and announcements that early modeling was extreme and things are going better than predicted. We'll be out of this is no time! In this one case reality may end up crashing their worldview, but usually they don't get incontrovertible evidence that want they hear from Fox news is wrong.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2783 on: March 28, 2020, 09:13:34 AM »
I seriously don't think Biden is mentally well.  It seems like the isolation is really negatively affecting him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCH8AQsPfU

I know this stuff is being spread by "Bernie Bros," but he is just doing awful in these interviews. It's hard to watch.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2784 on: March 28, 2020, 09:35:37 AM »
I seriously don't think Biden is mentally well.  It seems like the isolation is really negatively affecting him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCH8AQsPfU

I know this stuff is being spread by "Bernie Bros," but he is just doing awful in these interviews. It's hard to watch.

Every time I see a post about Joeís supposed mental decline, I think about Trump, and I laugh.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2785 on: March 28, 2020, 10:00:20 AM »
I seriously don't think Biden is mentally well.  It seems like the isolation is really negatively affecting him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCH8AQsPfU

I know this stuff is being spread by "Bernie Bros," but he is just doing awful in these interviews. It's hard to watch.

Every time I see a post about Joeís supposed mental decline, I think about Trump, and I laugh.

Now idea how we end up with a 73 year old who can't say a sentence longer than five words and a 77 year old who completely loses his train of thought quite frequently.

bacchi

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2786 on: March 28, 2020, 10:05:15 AM »
I seriously don't think Biden is mentally well.  It seems like the isolation is really negatively affecting him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCH8AQsPfU

I know this stuff is being spread by "Bernie Bros," but he is just doing awful in these interviews. It's hard to watch.

What's the point about the cough? That he has covid?

former player

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2787 on: March 28, 2020, 10:06:42 AM »
I seriously don't think Biden is mentally well.  It seems like the isolation is really negatively affecting him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCH8AQsPfU

I know this stuff is being spread by "Bernie Bros," but he is just doing awful in these interviews. It's hard to watch.

Every time I see a post about Joeís supposed mental decline, I think about Trump, and I laugh.
y

Now idea how we end up with a 73 year old who can't say a sentence longer than five words and a 77 year old who completely loses his train of thought quite frequently.
Racism, sexism and homophobia.  (Possibly disguised as fear of those things in others.)

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2788 on: March 28, 2020, 11:30:14 AM »
I seriously don't think Biden is mentally well.  It seems like the isolation is really negatively affecting him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCH8AQsPfU

I know this stuff is being spread by "Bernie Bros," but he is just doing awful in these interviews. It's hard to watch.

What's the point about the cough? That he has covid?

The cough and the slip of the tongue about the cure making the problem worse were non-issues. Out of context cuts like this can make anyone look like an idiot. I'll even admit that the media does this to Trump all the time (not that they need to).

Also worth noting that lag time is common in these remote interviews. Long pauses happen from our perspective but the interviewee is actually still listening to or waiting for a response. When they talk over each other and then both stop talking it's awkward but that's at least in part due to the time lag.

Biden's real mistake was finishing a thought and then trying to jump back in to correct himself. That throws off the back and forth timing structure and requires an awkward pause to get the conversation back on track.

I'll admit the awkward moments in that last interview were painful but context is important. Biden was off his game, but not so much to indicate dementia.




pecunia

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2789 on: March 28, 2020, 08:34:43 PM »
I'm still thinkin' third party.  What if some third party came up with a lucid good looking man or woman with a great smile?  All they'd have to do is promise good medical care and we'd all forget about the other old geezers.  I'm serious.  It's kinda disappointing that the best they can come up with are trump and Biden.  What's the matter with the billionaires that run the country?

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2790 on: March 29, 2020, 06:39:39 AM »
I was looking for someone to read that with the same shock and horror as I did and respond directly to OaH that this statement is not OK. I didn't expect me to have to point it out for someone to do it. Instead of someone actually condemning it (except Guitarstv), my statements have been the ones coming under scrutiny as opposed to that horrific statement. That's kind of what I was expecting.

I read your post first so I responded to it first.

My first reaction to the "I don't care" post was confusion. I don't even comprehend that position.

Perhaps @OzzieandHarriet meant they will still vote for him because the alternative is so much worse?

Hopefully they will elaborate on their position.

Fair enough, it all got out of order. I will say that even if that is OaH's view (and yours, if I'm reading your post correctly), that's still quite a statement to make and people making it, IMO, lose a lot of credibility when criticizing people for voting for Trump despite his many ethical and moral failings (policy stuff excluded).

ETA: I re-thought about this one. All credibility. All credibility is lost to ever criticize anyone for voting for someone who has done something abhorrent in the past. If rape isn't a bar for someone doing something evil that disqualifies them from being elected to the highest office in the land, then nothing will.

I'll never feel good about casting my vote for a lesser evil, but I'll still do it. Even if this accusation were proven true, Biden has a long way to go before he matches Trump's moral and ethical failings. If I could only choose between a murderer and a thief to babysit or leave it up to chance, I would choose the thief and not be very happy about the situation.

ETA: Again, my position assumes a situation where there are only two choices. In such a situation, the only bar is the other candidate.

I'm not even saying you shouldn't do that. I'm just saying, anyone who did forfeits all high ground to criticize non-political life actions/crime/reprehensible things committed by any presidential candidate outside of policy decisions. Also, you compare this as murder to theft. This is sexual assault to sexual assault. I'm not aware of anything Trump was accused of doing prior to his presidency that was worse than rape.

Perhaps I should have compared one act to many.

However, Trump has been accused of raping 12/13 year olds with Epstein and those events were corroborated by Epstein's assistant. Charges were brought and then dropped on 2 separate occasions.

ETA: Regarding the bolded, your logic doesn't follow. I haven't said that non-political life actions/crime/reprehensible things are irrelevant, only that I would choose the lesser evil. All that really says about me is that I don't believe in abstaining from the vote as a form of protest.

First of all, Trump is horrific, awful, and even if Biden did this one thing, he has almost certainly done more things. I am not disputing any of this. My logic does follow, because you don't have to abstain, you could choose to vote for someone who didn't rape someone. I'm not demanding you abstain from voting.

I was getting upset yesterday responding to this, so I'm obviously not in a good frame of mind to argue this, and that's on me not on anyone else. That being the case, I'll respond with this and leave it at that.

I saw this accusation of Biden of rape and was curious what everyone would think. I have seen first hand on this board and on others what has happened when this kind of thing comes up and the Republicans are the ones who are accused of it. Anyone that wants an education on it, please go back to the Kavanaugh thread. The tone of many was much more on the believe the woman side of things. This situation may not be as "provable" as the Kavanaugh one was, but it's also not some random woman who never had contact with Biden accusing him. The woman who accused him had already talked about how he made her uncomfortable - they have certainly had contact with each other. That was all it took for many/most of the liberals for Kavanaugh to say multiple times in multiple ways - this is one of the highest offices in the land - surely the Republicans can find someone who they like who isn't accused of rape. The Republicans I know either didn't believe it at all or said that their particular political issue - pro-life, was more important, even if it did happen. I didn't buy it, and it was a big reason why I started distancing myself from Republicans. It was a terrible ethical statement to make - ends justify the means kind of thing.

So I bring Biden up, curious and also thinking/hoping that liberals would respond in an ethical way. First, I was expecting people to treat it the same - say yes, we should investigate this, but it seems reasonably credible, so we should probably lean towards believing the woman. That didn't really happen. Then I hoped that people would say, if the investigation proves true, there's no way I'll vote for a rapist. Both may be rapists, but I can't vote for someone who raped someone else. If they couldn't do even that, I surely for pete's sake hoped they would say it would be the most difficult decision in my life voting, but I feel that Trump is so bad I feel I have no other option even though I feel terrible for doing it. I stand by what I said that you would lose all moral high ground to criticize anyone for voting for someone because they did something in the past, because you would literally be voting for someone who raped someone in the past, and it doesn't get much worse than that. You would be saying political ends justify the means of your vote for someone who raped someone else, and that's a line that once you cross, I don't buy any equivocating that you can come back from there.

What I got on this thread was nothing like that. I was disappointed. I shouldn't have been. I know political expediency trumps (no pun intended) all. Despite all of my arguing with many stalwart liberals on this forum, I actually have a lot of respect for mainstay liberal posters on here. You have broadened my horizons on issues and changed my perspective on many things. In this instance, from my view, I saw political expediency play out in people on this forum, and it made me sad. That's pretty much all.

GuitarStv

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2791 on: March 29, 2020, 07:37:35 AM »
With Kavenaugh, I really wanted to see a fair investigation.  The Republicans explicitly shut down that as a possibility by preventing the FBI from following all leads on the case.  I didn't "believe the woman over the man".  At least not initially.  But when a fair investigation is prevented by people supporting the man it does make me tend to assume there is guilt being hidden, because that's the action a guilty party would take.  With Biden, I'd also like to see a full investigation.

Voting-wise, it's extremely difficult if it turns out that Biden did commit rape.  At that point you have three options:
- directly support a racist, homophobic, misogynist person who has been accused of/bragged about rape / sexual assault on dozens of occasions and vote for Trump
- indirectly support Trump by abstaining or voting for a third party candidate with zero chance of winning
- vote to put another senile old white man with a history of sexual misconduct in office . . . but one who is centrist rather than socially conservative

I'd probably lean towards option three, but they all suck.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2792 on: March 29, 2020, 09:09:29 AM »
With Kavenaugh, I really wanted to see a fair investigation.  The Republicans explicitly shut down that as a possibility by preventing the FBI from following all leads on the case.  I didn't "believe the woman over the man".  At least not initially.  But when a fair investigation is prevented by people supporting the man it does make me tend to assume there is guilt being hidden, because that's the action a guilty party would take.  With Biden, I'd also like to see a full investigation.

Voting-wise, it's extremely difficult if it turns out that Biden did commit rape.  At that point you have three options:
- directly support a racist, homophobic, misogynist person who has been accused of/bragged about rape / sexual assault on dozens of occasions and vote for Trump
- indirectly support Trump by abstaining or voting for a third party candidate with zero chance of winning
- vote to put another senile old white man with a history of sexual misconduct in office . . . but one who is centrist rather than socially conservative

I'd probably lean towards option three, but they all suck.

Agree on all counts.

sui generis

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2793 on: March 29, 2020, 09:25:41 AM »
First of all, I definitely did not read the thread the way Wolfpack did. To me it's totally not comparable to the Republicans response to kavanaugh which was to circle the wagons and he became MORE popular. Here, there was 1 "I don't care" and everyone else is concerned and expects to hear fair and impartial investigative results.

The comparison to kavanaugh is also inapt because voting against kavanaugh just means they put up another, hopefully less rape-y, nominee. For president, you have exactly the choices GuitarStv outlined. Unfortunately we don't get other options, or the hope of supporting or electing a non-rapist (if it does turn out Biden did rape someone) if you don't vote in favor of either.

Davnasty

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2794 on: March 29, 2020, 09:26:33 AM »
With Kavenaugh, I really wanted to see a fair investigation.  The Republicans explicitly shut down that as a possibility by preventing the FBI from following all leads on the case.  I didn't "believe the woman over the man".  At least not initially.  But when a fair investigation is prevented by people supporting the man it does make me tend to assume there is guilt being hidden, because that's the action a guilty party would take.  With Biden, I'd also like to see a full investigation.

Voting-wise, it's extremely difficult if it turns out that Biden did commit rape.  At that point you have three options:
- directly support a racist, homophobic, misogynist person who has been accused of/bragged about rape / sexual assault on dozens of occasions and vote for Trump
- indirectly support Trump by abstaining or voting for a third party candidate with zero chance of winning
- vote to put another senile old white man with a history of sexual misconduct in office . . . but one who is centrist rather than socially conservative

I'd probably lean towards option three, but they all suck.

Exactly. I view the decision through a mathematical/realist lens. Sure, I could vote 3rd party, but I believe doing so would indirectly support Trump.

It wasn't all that long ago that I was more idealist on this question. I believed that we should all vote for who we believed would be the best president. Now I've accepted that doing so may be wasting my vote. Unless it seems that a 3rd party candidate would have a real chance prior to election day, I will be voting against Trump and in turn, for the Democratic candidate.

If someone believes this is political expediency, fine. But right now we're in a situation where people have and will continue to die because the president chose protecting his image over taking action and listening to health experts. I firmly believe Biden, or any other responsible, competent adult would have made better decisions. At the very least they would have gotten out of the way of the experts and not lied to the public.

wenchsenior

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2795 on: March 29, 2020, 10:24:07 AM »
With Kavenaugh, I really wanted to see a fair investigation.  The Republicans explicitly shut down that as a possibility by preventing the FBI from following all leads on the case.  I didn't "believe the woman over the man".  At least not initially.  But when a fair investigation is prevented by people supporting the man it does make me tend to assume there is guilt being hidden, because that's the action a guilty party would take.  With Biden, I'd also like to see a full investigation.

Voting-wise, it's extremely difficult if it turns out that Biden did commit rape.  At that point you have three options:
- directly support a racist, homophobic, misogynist person who has been accused of/bragged about rape / sexual assault on dozens of occasions and vote for Trump
- indirectly support Trump by abstaining or voting for a third party candidate with zero chance of winning
- vote to put another senile old white man with a history of sexual misconduct in office . . . but one who is centrist rather than socially conservative

I'd probably lean towards option three, but they all suck.

Exactly. I view the decision through a mathematical/realist lens. Sure, I could vote 3rd party, but I believe doing so would indirectly support Trump.

It wasn't all that long ago that I was more idealist on this question. I believed that we should all vote for who we believed would be the best president. Now I've accepted that doing so may be wasting my vote. Unless it seems that a 3rd party candidate would have a real chance prior to election day, I will be voting against Trump and in turn, for the Democratic candidate.

If someone believes this is political expediency, fine. But right now we're in a situation where people have and will continue to die because the president chose protecting his image over taking action and listening to health experts. I firmly believe Biden, or any other responsible, competent adult would have made better decisions. At the very least they would have gotten out of the way of the experts and not lied to the public.
With Kavenaugh, I really wanted to see a fair investigation.  The Republicans explicitly shut down that as a possibility by preventing the FBI from following all leads on the case.  I didn't "believe the woman over the man".  At least not initially.  But when a fair investigation is prevented by people supporting the man it does make me tend to assume there is guilt being hidden, because that's the action a guilty party would take.  With Biden, I'd also like to see a full investigation.

Voting-wise, it's extremely difficult if it turns out that Biden did commit rape.  At that point you have three options:
- directly support a racist, homophobic, misogynist person who has been accused of/bragged about rape / sexual assault on dozens of occasions and vote for Trump
- indirectly support Trump by abstaining or voting for a third party candidate with zero chance of winning
- vote to put another senile old white man with a history of sexual misconduct in office . . . but one who is centrist rather than socially conservative

I'd probably lean towards option three, but they all suck.

Same. So depressing.

skp

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2796 on: March 29, 2020, 10:52:12 AM »


The comparison to kavanaugh is also inapt because voting against kavanaugh just means they put up another, hopefully less rape-y, nominee. For president, you have exactly the choices GuitarStv outlined. Unfortunately we don't get other options, or the hope of supporting or electing a non-rapist (if it does turn out Biden did rape someone) if you don't vote in favor of either.

Disagree.  The rape-y charges against Biden (proven or not) have been known throughout the primary and the majority of your party are still voting for him. As far as I know, the Democrat party isn't pushing for investigations.  And thirdly, there are/ were other options available in the primary.  Biden is winning anyway.  If the party really cared like they say they do about this, why isn't there any investigating going on and why are Democrats saying one thing and voting another?

sui generis

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2797 on: March 29, 2020, 11:04:18 AM »


The comparison to kavanaugh is also inapt because voting against kavanaugh just means they put up another, hopefully less rape-y, nominee. For president, you have exactly the choices GuitarStv outlined. Unfortunately we don't get other options, or the hope of supporting or electing a non-rapist (if it does turn out Biden did rape someone) if you don't vote in favor of either.

Disagree.  The rape-y charges against Biden (proven or not) have been known throughout the primary and the majority of your party are still voting for him. As far as I know, the Democrat party isn't pushing for investigations.  And thirdly, there are/ were other options available in the primary.  Biden is winning anyway.  If the party really cared like they say they do about this, why isn't there any investigating going on and why are Democrats saying one thing and voting another?

I pay more attention to politics than 99% of the people I know (and that's hard to do in my circles) and I had not heard of this. The most I had seen was creepy things like touching hair and shoulders which under certain circumstances could definitely be assault, but is not rape (just as a clarification). Added to that, I didn't vote for Biden in my primary, but here I am anyway. Stuck with the choices described above. This is where we are when we learned of accusations that need to be investigated. There's no going back in time.

Kris

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2798 on: March 29, 2020, 11:06:23 AM »


The comparison to kavanaugh is also inapt because voting against kavanaugh just means they put up another, hopefully less rape-y, nominee. For president, you have exactly the choices GuitarStv outlined. Unfortunately we don't get other options, or the hope of supporting or electing a non-rapist (if it does turn out Biden did rape someone) if you don't vote in favor of either.

Disagree.  The rape-y charges against Biden (proven or not) have been known throughout the primary and the majority of your party are still voting for him. As far as I know, the Democrat party isn't pushing for investigations.  And thirdly, there are/ were other options available in the primary.  Biden is winning anyway.  If the party really cared like they say they do about this, why isn't there any investigating going on and why are Democrats saying one thing and voting another?

I pay more attention to politics than 99% of the people I know (and that's hard to do in my circles) and I had not heard of this. The most I had seen was creepy things like touching hair and shoulders which under certain circumstances could definitely be assault, but is not rape (just as a clarification). Added to that, I didn't vote for Biden in my primary, but here I am anyway. Stuck with the choices described above. This is where we are when we learned of accusations that need to be investigated. There's no going back in time.

Agree again on all counts. I could have written this.

wenchsenior

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Re: 2020 POTUS Candidates
« Reply #2799 on: March 29, 2020, 11:07:54 AM »


The comparison to kavanaugh is also inapt because voting against kavanaugh just means they put up another, hopefully less rape-y, nominee. For president, you have exactly the choices GuitarStv outlined. Unfortunately we don't get other options, or the hope of supporting or electing a non-rapist (if it does turn out Biden did rape someone) if you don't vote in favor of either.

Disagree.  The rape-y charges against Biden (proven or not) have been known throughout the primary and the majority of your party are still voting for him. As far as I know, the Democrat party isn't pushing for investigations.  And thirdly, there are/ were other options available in the primary.  Biden is winning anyway.  If the party really cared like they say they do about this, why isn't there any investigating going on and why are Democrats saying one thing and voting another?

I follow the news closely and the very first I heard of any sexual assault charges of any kind was a  couple days ago.  Before that it was always vague accusations that Biden was 'huggy'.  If someone like me following the primary closely didn't know, I can absolutely assure you most of the voters didn't know; if they had, perhaps some of those primary votes would have gone different.  I mean, I didn't end up voting for Biden in the primary, but I did seriously consider it.  I certainly wouldn't have voted for him in the primary had I heard any sexual assault allegations.