Poll

Out of current presidential candidates, who is most likely to get your vote?

Jeb Bush
6 (1.7%)
Ben Carson
8 (2.2%)
Chris Christie
8 (2.2%)
Hillary Clinton
77 (21.6%)
Ted Cruz
5 (1.4%)
Lindsey Graham
0 (0%)
Martin O'Malley
2 (0.6%)
Rand Paul
40 (11.2%)
Marco Rubio
8 (2.2%)
Bernie Sanders
144 (40.4%)
Donald Trump
34 (9.6%)
Scott Walker
7 (2%)
Other (Please Explain in Comments)
17 (4.8%)

Total Members Voted: 348

Author Topic: 2016 Presidential Candidate  (Read 310608 times)

Midwest

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #600 on: August 12, 2015, 08:11:36 AM »
Omg following, so juicy. I would LOVE to hear from, learn about a moderate fiscally responsible Republican who has a reasonable knowledge of world history, respects diplomacy over always saber rattling, is science-loving, thinks nature is an asset we should responsibly maintain and use, says sure why not legalize pot, thinks women know best what to do with their bodies and things in their bodies, refuses to kowtow to the Taliban-like US religious right, says who gives a shit if gays get married, no big whup, and thinks there should be good education and a health/safety net for the unfortunates of our society. ETA: and doesn't need to kill every union.

Maybe Kasich?
I don't know about the rest of the list but on women's issues he does not believe women should make their own decisions.
 
"Kasich is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He's going out there trying to sell himself as a moderate, he's no moderate. He is an extremist," says Kellie Copeland, executive director of NARAL Pro-Choice Ohio, an abortion rights advocacy group. "He is—if not the worst—among the worst of anti-choice governors in this country's history."

Since Kasich entered office in 2011, he has enacted 16 anti-abortion measures. Some directly restrict abortion access, such as the 20-week late-term ban that he signed six months after entering office. Others limit the work of abortion providers. For example, in 2013 he signed the state's budget bill, which included one provision that prohibits state-funded rape crisis counselors from referring women to abortion services and another that stripped Planned Parenthood of an estimated $1.4 million in federal family-planning dollars. The measures have had drastic consequences for access to abortion and medical care for Ohio women: During Kasich's time in office, the number of abortion providers in the state has dropped from 16 to eight.

I love it!  An extremist group head calling a centrist an extremist!

So a group whose positions are supported by 35-65% of the country depending on how you phrase the question is "extremist"?

35% - 65% want abortion after 20 weeks in all circumstances? 

The attached indicates 56% support a limit at 20 weeks.  The bill being referred to (and signed by Kasich) set the limit at 20 weeks with limited exceptions.

Given the public support, I don't know Kasich's signing could be considered extreme.

forummm

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #601 on: August 12, 2015, 08:53:59 AM »
Omg following, so juicy. I would LOVE to hear from, learn about a moderate fiscally responsible Republican who has a reasonable knowledge of world history, respects diplomacy over always saber rattling, is science-loving, thinks nature is an asset we should responsibly maintain and use, says sure why not legalize pot, thinks women know best what to do with their bodies and things in their bodies, refuses to kowtow to the Taliban-like US religious right, says who gives a shit if gays get married, no big whup, and thinks there should be good education and a health/safety net for the unfortunates of our society. ETA: and doesn't need to kill every union.

Maybe Kasich?
I don't know about the rest of the list but on women's issues he does not believe women should make their own decisions.
 
"Kasich is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He's going out there trying to sell himself as a moderate, he's no moderate. He is an extremist," says Kellie Copeland, executive director of NARAL Pro-Choice Ohio, an abortion rights advocacy group. "He is—if not the worst—among the worst of anti-choice governors in this country's history."

Since Kasich entered office in 2011, he has enacted 16 anti-abortion measures. Some directly restrict abortion access, such as the 20-week late-term ban that he signed six months after entering office. Others limit the work of abortion providers. For example, in 2013 he signed the state's budget bill, which included one provision that prohibits state-funded rape crisis counselors from referring women to abortion services and another that stripped Planned Parenthood of an estimated $1.4 million in federal family-planning dollars. The measures have had drastic consequences for access to abortion and medical care for Ohio women: During Kasich's time in office, the number of abortion providers in the state has dropped from 16 to eight.

I love it!  An extremist group head calling a centrist an extremist!

So a group whose positions are supported by 35-65% of the country depending on how you phrase the question is "extremist"?

35% - 65% want abortion after 20 weeks in all circumstances? 

The attached indicates 56% support a limit at 20 weeks.  The bill being referred to (and signed by Kasich) set the limit at 20 weeks with limited exceptions.

Given the public support, I don't know Kasich's signing could be considered extreme.

I don't see anything attached. Regulator was asserting the group was "extremist". Depending on how you ask the question of support for abortion (with various phrasings and caveats and exemptions like life of the mother, rape, incest, etc) and when and where you ask the question I've seen rates supporting abortion in the general range I provided.

forummm

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #602 on: August 12, 2015, 09:06:36 AM »
Bernie is generating the largest crowds by far of any candidate. He's getting Obama-size crowds. I don't know what the next closest candidate's largest attendance at a rally was, but putting these all together says that Sanders' 11,000 people rally in Phoenix is larger than any other candidate's rally anywhere in the country. And since then he's had rallies of 28,000 in Portland, 27,500 in LA, 15,000 in Seattle.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/09/bernie-sanders-breaks-record-drawing-15000-supporters-seattle-rally.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sanders-california-20150811-story.html

Midwest

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #603 on: August 12, 2015, 09:10:36 AM »


I don't see anything attached. Regulator was asserting the group was "extremist". Depending on how you ask the question of support for abortion (with various phrasings and caveats and exemptions like life of the mother, rape, incest, etc) and when and where you ask the question I've seen rates supporting abortion in the general range I provided.

My fault on the attachment.  Here's it is:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/01/22/the-most-surprising-part-about-the-gops-failed-20-week-abortion-ban-push-it-was-popular/

Kasich signed a bill along those lines (banning abortion after 20 weeks in most circumstances) and NARAL is calling him extreme.  If Naral is attacking that, I would say their position on the topic (abortion after 20 weeks) is extreme given the public sentiment against abortion after 20 weeks.  If you want to attack Clinton abortion, you don't quote right to life.  Kind of the same thing on attacking Kasich with Naral.

Kasich is a moderate who can actually cooperate.  I hate to see people derailing him over this single issue especially when the majority of the populace agrees with him.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 09:21:25 AM by Midwest »

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #604 on: August 12, 2015, 09:31:32 AM »
Bernie is generating the largest crowds by far of any candidate. He's getting Obama-size crowds. I don't know what the next closest candidate's largest attendance at a rally was, but putting these all together says that Sanders' 11,000 people rally in Phoenix is larger than any other candidate's rally anywhere in the country. And since then he's had rallies of 28,000 in Portland, 27,500 in LA, 15,000 in Seattle.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/09/bernie-sanders-breaks-record-drawing-15000-supporters-seattle-rally.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sanders-california-20150811-story.html

Based on Bernie's supporters in my facebook feed, a stadium full of Bernieites can maybe sorta afford to support him to the tune of about $2k, total, if you promise not to cash the check until next week.  And oh yeah, I'm not going to be able to get off work on Election Day, I gotta work a double shift at the diner. 

regulator

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #605 on: August 12, 2015, 09:50:48 AM »
Bernie is generating the largest crowds by far of any candidate. He's getting Obama-size crowds. I don't know what the next closest candidate's largest attendance at a rally was, but putting these all together says that Sanders' 11,000 people rally in Phoenix is larger than any other candidate's rally anywhere in the country. And since then he's had rallies of 28,000 in Portland, 27,500 in LA, 15,000 in Seattle.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/09/bernie-sanders-breaks-record-drawing-15000-supporters-seattle-rally.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sanders-california-20150811-story.html

Based on Bernie's supporters in my facebook feed, a stadium full of Bernieites can maybe sorta afford to support him to the tune of about $2k, total, if you promise not to cash the check until next week.  And oh yeah, I'm not going to be able to get off work on Election Day, I gotta work a double shift at the diner.

Hilarious!  The Sanders supporters in my feed are the kind of mindless drones who love everything and everyone on the left side of the spectrum with out any filters, reservations, or thought.  They seem completely uneducated when it comes to economics, business and the real world.

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #606 on: August 12, 2015, 09:51:57 AM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Welcome to how the right feels about "reasonable gun control"!  :D


Personally, I dislike the religious right immensely, but as I am a straight, white, married male, their idiotic views tend not to impact me or my family, and thus they aren't issues on which I base my vote.  I wish they'd adapt them, because I think they'd be much more successful if they left alone gays, abortions, and birth control, but as a practical matter it doesn't impact my life and thus sway my vote.

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #607 on: August 12, 2015, 09:54:04 AM »
Bernie is generating the largest crowds by far of any candidate. He's getting Obama-size crowds. I don't know what the next closest candidate's largest attendance at a rally was, but putting these all together says that Sanders' 11,000 people rally in Phoenix is larger than any other candidate's rally anywhere in the country. And since then he's had rallies of 28,000 in Portland, 27,500 in LA, 15,000 in Seattle.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/09/bernie-sanders-breaks-record-drawing-15000-supporters-seattle-rally.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sanders-california-20150811-story.html

Based on Bernie's supporters in my facebook feed, a stadium full of Bernieites can maybe sorta afford to support him to the tune of about $2k, total, if you promise not to cash the check until next week.  And oh yeah, I'm not going to be able to get off work on Election Day, I gotta work a double shift at the diner.

Hilarious!  The Sanders supporters in my feed are the kind of mindless drones who love everything and everyone on the left side of the spectrum with out any filters, reservations, or thought.  They seem completely uneducated when it comes to economics, business and the real world.

Yes, the common theme I see in Bernie supports I know is "I'm poor and should get some rich people's money."  How and why, specifically, are conspicuously absent, but they're certain that the CEO of, say, GE is ripping them off somehow.

beltim

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #608 on: August 12, 2015, 09:59:00 AM »
Bernie is generating the largest crowds by far of any candidate. He's getting Obama-size crowds. I don't know what the next closest candidate's largest attendance at a rally was, but putting these all together says that Sanders' 11,000 people rally in Phoenix is larger than any other candidate's rally anywhere in the country. And since then he's had rallies of 28,000 in Portland, 27,500 in LA, 15,000 in Seattle.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/09/bernie-sanders-breaks-record-drawing-15000-supporters-seattle-rally.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sanders-california-20150811-story.html

Based on Bernie's supporters in my facebook feed, a stadium full of Bernieites can maybe sorta afford to support him to the tune of about $2k, total, if you promise not to cash the check until next week.  And oh yeah, I'm not going to be able to get off work on Election Day, I gotta work a double shift at the diner.

Hilarious!  The Sanders supporters in my feed are the kind of mindless drones who love everything and everyone on the left side of the spectrum with out any filters, reservations, or thought.  They seem completely uneducated when it comes to economics, business and the real world.

Yes, the common theme I see in Bernie supports I know is "I'm poor and should get some rich people's money."  How and why, specifically, are conspicuously absent, but they're certain that the CEO of, say, GE is ripping them off somehow.

Yeah, that definitely explains why Sanders is the leading vote-getter in this poll.

Jack

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #609 on: August 12, 2015, 10:00:06 AM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Welcome to how the right feels about "reasonable gun control"!  :D

And this is precisely why "left" and "right" are total bullshit: I, for one, feel exactly the same way about restrictions on gun ownership as I do about restrictions on abortion!

Personally, I dislike the religious right immensely, but as I am a straight, white, married male, their idiotic views tend not to impact me or my family, and thus they aren't issues on which I base my vote.  I wish they'd adapt them, because I think they'd be much more successful if they left alone gays, abortions, and birth control, but as a practical matter it doesn't impact my life and thus sway my vote.

Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.

Gin1984

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #610 on: August 12, 2015, 10:07:51 AM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Welcome to how the right feels about "reasonable gun control"!  :D


Personally, I dislike the religious right immensely, but as I am a straight, white, married male, their idiotic views tend not to impact me or my family, and thus they aren't issues on which I base my vote.  I wish they'd adapt them, because I think they'd be much more successful if they left alone gays, abortions, and birth control, but as a practical matter it doesn't impact my life and thus sway my vote.

So your wife is never going to have a child?  Her income does not effect your budget? 
There are states where it is more unsafe to be a birthing or pregnant woman than multiple third world countries.  In fact, we are the only country, in the first countries, that have increased our maternal mortality rate when other countries are decreasing it.  And if you break it down in states, it is the red states that are pulling us down.  So that does not affect your vote?  It sure impacted my husband's.

zoltani

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #611 on: August 12, 2015, 10:08:02 AM »
Yeah, we are all a bunch of poor schmucks that just want to steal YOUR money so we can retire early!


muhwhuahahaha

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #612 on: August 12, 2015, 10:11:19 AM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Welcome to how the right feels about "reasonable gun control"!  :D

And this is precisely why "left" and "right" are total bullshit: I, for one, feel exactly the same way about restrictions on gun ownership as I do about restrictions on abortion!

Perhaps abortions could be provided via gun to make everyone on both sides happy.

Gin1984

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #613 on: August 12, 2015, 10:12:59 AM »
Omg following, so juicy. I would LOVE to hear from, learn about a moderate fiscally responsible Republican who has a reasonable knowledge of world history, respects diplomacy over always saber rattling, is science-loving, thinks nature is an asset we should responsibly maintain and use, says sure why not legalize pot, thinks women know best what to do with their bodies and things in their bodies, refuses to kowtow to the Taliban-like US religious right, says who gives a shit if gays get married, no big whup, and thinks there should be good education and a health/safety net for the unfortunates of our society. ETA: and doesn't need to kill every union.

Maybe Kasich?
I don't know about the rest of the list but on women's issues he does not believe women should make their own decisions.
 
"Kasich is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He's going out there trying to sell himself as a moderate, he's no moderate. He is an extremist," says Kellie Copeland, executive director of NARAL Pro-Choice Ohio, an abortion rights advocacy group. "He is—if not the worst—among the worst of anti-choice governors in this country's history."

Since Kasich entered office in 2011, he has enacted 16 anti-abortion measures. Some directly restrict abortion access, such as the 20-week late-term ban that he signed six months after entering office. Others limit the work of abortion providers. For example, in 2013 he signed the state's budget bill, which included one provision that prohibits state-funded rape crisis counselors from referring women to abortion services and another that stripped Planned Parenthood of an estimated $1.4 million in federal family-planning dollars. The measures have had drastic consequences for access to abortion and medical care for Ohio women: During Kasich's time in office, the number of abortion providers in the state has dropped from 16 to eight.

I love it!  An extremist group head calling a centrist an extremist!

So a group whose positions are supported by 35-65% of the country depending on how you phrase the question is "extremist"?

35% - 65% want abortion after 20 weeks in all circumstances? 

The attached indicates 56% support a limit at 20 weeks.  The bill being referred to (and signed by Kasich) set the limit at 20 weeks with limited exceptions.

Given the public support, I don't know Kasich's signing could be considered extreme.
If you know anything about how devolopment works for a fetus, and understand that we can't see developmental errors until the 20 week ultrasound, yes saying that you can't have an abortion after twenty weeks is extreme.  It is saying that women can't make a decision, for their medical care, while the fetus is still incapable of surviving outside of womb.  It is saying that women can't get all the information they need to make an informed decision and then decide because of an arbitrary deadline.   Oh, yea, except it was not arbitrary, they made it twenty weeks so women who found out that a fetus would not develop normally, including being born and living very short periods of time with extreme amount of pain, could not make a decision they disagreed with. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 09:16:45 PM by Gin1984 »

Bob W

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #614 on: August 12, 2015, 10:14:45 AM »
Well, Clinton was found to have sent classified info on her private email account. I wonder if she can survive that.

<-- This alleged-Democrat sure as Hell hopes not!

A Republican Unicorn--social libertarian, an actual social libertarian, prochoice everything from drugs to abortion to guns to gays, and who is a moderate fiscal conservative, I'd give money to him/her just to try to save the poor thing from extinction. I actually have some friends like this, maybe I should encourage them to run for office.

Yes, you should!

Semi-rhetorical question: how come when someone is essentially conservative but more "accepting" on some social issues, they are considered libertarian? But the same POV on social issues in a liberal person is just...liberal.

Because the taxonomy is not well-formed (or at least, most people use it incorrectly). The liberal equivalent of a libertarian is more or less the Green Party, but everybody forgets they exist. A lot of people don't know that a big part of their ideology is "grassroots democracy" (a.k.a. anti-Federalism, a.k.a. States' Rights, a.k.a. small [Federal] government, etc.), for example. Libertarians and Greens would realize they have a lot in common if they would just try to stop shoehorning themselves into opposite ends of a grossly-inaccurate single-dimension political spectrum. The only real sticking point is their differing opinions on how to solve the tragedy of the commons (Greens favor regulation; Libertarians favor privatization).

Thanks for this, it was what I'm trying to get at with my unicorn description. I'm fairly lefty, but DH and I were in the Navy in the past, and DH works for the guvmint now in a military appropriations office. His travails and the crap financial decisions show us that the waste Congress should attack is not the stuff they go after. The public doesn't want to hear about military acquisitions issues, boring, complicated, hard to take on. No one wants mindlessly, wastfully big, government, but the two sides get stuck on bring out the radical base topics, things that stir up the peeps.

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Although abortion gets a lot of press,  I wonder what percentage of people actually cast their votes with abortion in mind.   I have to admit I was shocked several years ago when a good friend of my wife mentioned that she was voting solely on this issue.   Well I just looked it up -- Looks like around 15% will not vote for someone with an opposing view.  http://www.gallup.com/poll/157886/abortion-threshold-issue-one-six-voters.aspx

It is interesting that black women have abortions at twice the rate as white women.  It is ironic then that the Republican party opposes terminating black babies and the Democrats supports terminating them.   Go figure? 

Wouldn't the smart candidate simply state that they don't have a current policy on this matter and let's move on to the economy.  Or perhaps finesse it a bit by saying "I don't think abortions are a good idea or a good choice for birth control but knowing that 35-40% of all teen pregnancies are the result of incest I can see women wanting access to this"   Seems like the logical middle ground of birth control is never talked about rationally.  For instance most of Western Europe has a very, very low number of unplanned pregnancies.   Seems like a good leader would point this out and say ---- "let's focus on greatly reducing the number of abortions by finding out how Europe does it and copy their lead."   

I actually lead a Teen Pregnancy Prevention Task force in a small Republican/Baptist community many years ago.  All the local preachers were on the task force.  All had stories of teen pregnancies in their flocks.  I was amazed that none of them were opposed to effective contraception.  Perhaps that is where the national discussion needs to head.   At least that is my opinion on this divisive issue. 

I mean -- most everyone knows and agrees that abortions are not a preferential choice for birth control.   So let's set a goal of reducing them by 90%.

regulator

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #615 on: August 12, 2015, 10:16:22 AM »
Bernie is generating the largest crowds by far of any candidate. He's getting Obama-size crowds. I don't know what the next closest candidate's largest attendance at a rally was, but putting these all together says that Sanders' 11,000 people rally in Phoenix is larger than any other candidate's rally anywhere in the country. And since then he's had rallies of 28,000 in Portland, 27,500 in LA, 15,000 in Seattle.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/09/bernie-sanders-breaks-record-drawing-15000-supporters-seattle-rally.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sanders-california-20150811-story.html

Based on Bernie's supporters in my facebook feed, a stadium full of Bernieites can maybe sorta afford to support him to the tune of about $2k, total, if you promise not to cash the check until next week.  And oh yeah, I'm not going to be able to get off work on Election Day, I gotta work a double shift at the diner.

Hilarious!  The Sanders supporters in my feed are the kind of mindless drones who love everything and everyone on the left side of the spectrum with out any filters, reservations, or thought.  They seem completely uneducated when it comes to economics, business and the real world.

Yes, the common theme I see in Bernie supports I know is "I'm poor and should get some rich people's money."  How and why, specifically, are conspicuously absent, but they're certain that the CEO of, say, GE is ripping them off somehow.

Yeah, that definitely explains why Sanders is the leading vote-getter in this poll.

You do understand that we are discussing what is popping up in FB feeds rather than what supposed voters are telling pollsters, right?  There might be a tiny bit of a difference between those two populations.

Gin1984

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #616 on: August 12, 2015, 10:22:31 AM »
Well, Clinton was found to have sent classified info on her private email account. I wonder if she can survive that.

<-- This alleged-Democrat sure as Hell hopes not!

A Republican Unicorn--social libertarian, an actual social libertarian, prochoice everything from drugs to abortion to guns to gays, and who is a moderate fiscal conservative, I'd give money to him/her just to try to save the poor thing from extinction. I actually have some friends like this, maybe I should encourage them to run for office.

Yes, you should!

Semi-rhetorical question: how come when someone is essentially conservative but more "accepting" on some social issues, they are considered libertarian? But the same POV on social issues in a liberal person is just...liberal.

Because the taxonomy is not well-formed (or at least, most people use it incorrectly). The liberal equivalent of a libertarian is more or less the Green Party, but everybody forgets they exist. A lot of people don't know that a big part of their ideology is "grassroots democracy" (a.k.a. anti-Federalism, a.k.a. States' Rights, a.k.a. small [Federal] government, etc.), for example. Libertarians and Greens would realize they have a lot in common if they would just try to stop shoehorning themselves into opposite ends of a grossly-inaccurate single-dimension political spectrum. The only real sticking point is their differing opinions on how to solve the tragedy of the commons (Greens favor regulation; Libertarians favor privatization).

Thanks for this, it was what I'm trying to get at with my unicorn description. I'm fairly lefty, but DH and I were in the Navy in the past, and DH works for the guvmint now in a military appropriations office. His travails and the crap financial decisions show us that the waste Congress should attack is not the stuff they go after. The public doesn't want to hear about military acquisitions issues, boring, complicated, hard to take on. No one wants mindlessly, wastfully big, government, but the two sides get stuck on bring out the radical base topics, things that stir up the peeps.

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Although abortion gets a lot of press,  I wonder what percentage of people actually cast their votes with abortion in mind.   I have to admit I was shocked several years ago when a good friend of my wife mentioned that she was voting solely on this issue.   Well I just looked it up -- Looks like around 15% will not vote for someone with an opposing view.  http://www.gallup.com/poll/157886/abortion-threshold-issue-one-six-voters.aspx

It is interesting that black women have abortions at twice the rate as white women.  It is ironic then that the Republican party opposes terminating black babies and the Democrats supports terminating them.   Go figure? 

Wouldn't the smart candidate simply state that they don't have a current policy on this matter and let's move on to the economy.  Or perhaps finesse it a bit by saying "I don't think abortions are a good idea or a good choice for birth control but knowing that 35-40% of all teen pregnancies are the result of incest I can see women wanting access to this"   Seems like the logical middle ground of birth control is never talked about rationally.  For instance most of Western Europe has a very, very low number of unplanned pregnancies.   Seems like a good leader would point this out and say ---- "let's focus on greatly reducing the number of abortions by finding out how Europe does it and copy their lead."   

I actually lead a Teen Pregnancy Prevention Task force in a small Republican/Baptist community many years ago.  All the local preachers were on the task force.  All had stories of teen pregnancies in their flocks.  I was amazed that none of them were opposed to effective contraception.  Perhaps that is where the national discussion needs to head.   At least that is my opinion on this divisive issue. 

I mean -- most everyone knows and agrees that abortions are not a preferential choice for birth control.   So let's set a goal of reducing them by 90%.
Lol, well that mean sex education and birth control, things the GOP are against.  They done programs were they give access to birth control and sex education and abortion rates plummet.  We know exactly how to do it, but the GOP is not ok with it.  Which is how the GOP gets a rep for being anti-woman and not anti-abortion.  Because if they were, their actions would be drastically different.

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #617 on: August 12, 2015, 10:22:52 AM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Welcome to how the right feels about "reasonable gun control"!  :D


Personally, I dislike the religious right immensely, but as I am a straight, white, married male, their idiotic views tend not to impact me or my family, and thus they aren't issues on which I base my vote.  I wish they'd adapt them, because I think they'd be much more successful if they left alone gays, abortions, and birth control, but as a practical matter it doesn't impact my life and thus sway my vote.

So your wife is never going to have a child?  Her income does not effect your budget? 
There are states where it is more unsafe to be a birthing or pregnant woman than multiple third world countries.  In fact, we are the only country, in the first countries, that have increased our maternal mortality rate when other countries are decreasing it.  And if you break it down in states, it is the red states that are pulling us down.  So that does not affect your vote?  It sure impacted my husband's.

We already have a kid.  We plan to have another, but I don't consider the possibility of a danger to my wife's life a significant factor to sway my vote (She drives to work every day, far more dangerous).  Besides, I'm not in the south.  Her income is roughly the same as mine, and variations can be attributable to fewer qualifications (I have a grad degree, she does not) and less job switching in search of raises.  I don't believe that when you control for those types of variables a significant gender/wage gap is present in professional roles. 

zoltani

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #618 on: August 12, 2015, 10:24:29 AM »
Bernie is generating the largest crowds by far of any candidate. He's getting Obama-size crowds. I don't know what the next closest candidate's largest attendance at a rally was, but putting these all together says that Sanders' 11,000 people rally in Phoenix is larger than any other candidate's rally anywhere in the country. And since then he's had rallies of 28,000 in Portland, 27,500 in LA, 15,000 in Seattle.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/09/bernie-sanders-breaks-record-drawing-15000-supporters-seattle-rally.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sanders-california-20150811-story.html

Based on Bernie's supporters in my facebook feed, a stadium full of Bernieites can maybe sorta afford to support him to the tune of about $2k, total, if you promise not to cash the check until next week.  And oh yeah, I'm not going to be able to get off work on Election Day, I gotta work a double shift at the diner.

Hilarious!  The Sanders supporters in my feed are the kind of mindless drones who love everything and everyone on the left side of the spectrum with out any filters, reservations, or thought.  They seem completely uneducated when it comes to economics, business and the real world.

Yes, the common theme I see in Bernie supports I know is "I'm poor and should get some rich people's money."  How and why, specifically, are conspicuously absent, but they're certain that the CEO of, say, GE is ripping them off somehow.

Yeah, that definitely explains why Sanders is the leading vote-getter in this poll.

You do understand that we are discussing what is popping up in FB feeds rather than what supposed voters are telling pollsters, right?  There might be a tiny bit of a difference between those two populations.

You do realize he was talking about the poll AT THE TOP OF THIS THREAD, right? There might be a tiny bit of difference between idiots on FB and people on this forum.

or is there?

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #619 on: August 12, 2015, 10:25:28 AM »
Well, Clinton was found to have sent classified info on her private email account. I wonder if she can survive that.

<-- This alleged-Democrat sure as Hell hopes not!

A Republican Unicorn--social libertarian, an actual social libertarian, prochoice everything from drugs to abortion to guns to gays, and who is a moderate fiscal conservative, I'd give money to him/her just to try to save the poor thing from extinction. I actually have some friends like this, maybe I should encourage them to run for office.

Yes, you should!

Semi-rhetorical question: how come when someone is essentially conservative but more "accepting" on some social issues, they are considered libertarian? But the same POV on social issues in a liberal person is just...liberal.

Because the taxonomy is not well-formed (or at least, most people use it incorrectly). The liberal equivalent of a libertarian is more or less the Green Party, but everybody forgets they exist. A lot of people don't know that a big part of their ideology is "grassroots democracy" (a.k.a. anti-Federalism, a.k.a. States' Rights, a.k.a. small [Federal] government, etc.), for example. Libertarians and Greens would realize they have a lot in common if they would just try to stop shoehorning themselves into opposite ends of a grossly-inaccurate single-dimension political spectrum. The only real sticking point is their differing opinions on how to solve the tragedy of the commons (Greens favor regulation; Libertarians favor privatization).

Thanks for this, it was what I'm trying to get at with my unicorn description. I'm fairly lefty, but DH and I were in the Navy in the past, and DH works for the guvmint now in a military appropriations office. His travails and the crap financial decisions show us that the waste Congress should attack is not the stuff they go after. The public doesn't want to hear about military acquisitions issues, boring, complicated, hard to take on. No one wants mindlessly, wastfully big, government, but the two sides get stuck on bring out the radical base topics, things that stir up the peeps.

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Although abortion gets a lot of press,  I wonder what percentage of people actually cast their votes with abortion in mind.   I have to admit I was shocked several years ago when a good friend of my wife mentioned that she was voting solely on this issue.   Well I just looked it up -- Looks like around 15% will not vote for someone with an opposing view.  http://www.gallup.com/poll/157886/abortion-threshold-issue-one-six-voters.aspx

It is interesting that black women have abortions at twice the rate as white women.  It is ironic then that the Republican party opposes terminating black babies and the Democrats supports terminating them.   Go figure? 

Wouldn't the smart candidate simply state that they don't have a current policy on this matter and let's move on to the economy.  Or perhaps finesse it a bit by saying "I don't think abortions are a good idea or a good choice for birth control but knowing that 35-40% of all teen pregnancies are the result of incest I can see women wanting access to this"   Seems like the logical middle ground of birth control is never talked about rationally.  For instance most of Western Europe has a very, very low number of unplanned pregnancies.   Seems like a good leader would point this out and say ---- "let's focus on greatly reducing the number of abortions by finding out how Europe does it and copy their lead."   

I actually lead a Teen Pregnancy Prevention Task force in a small Republican/Baptist community many years ago.  All the local preachers were on the task force.  All had stories of teen pregnancies in their flocks.  I was amazed that none of them were opposed to effective contraception.  Perhaps that is where the national discussion needs to head.   At least that is my opinion on this divisive issue. 

I mean -- most everyone knows and agrees that abortions are not a preferential choice for birth control.   So let's set a goal of reducing them by 90%.

I always thought the "safe, legal, and rare" standpoint was a good one.  If I was running, my comment would be something about "I don't intend to introduce or propose any new legislation on the topic."  Done.  I'm not for it, I'm not against it, I'm not trying to change it.

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #620 on: August 12, 2015, 10:26:59 AM »
Bernie is generating the largest crowds by far of any candidate. He's getting Obama-size crowds. I don't know what the next closest candidate's largest attendance at a rally was, but putting these all together says that Sanders' 11,000 people rally in Phoenix is larger than any other candidate's rally anywhere in the country. And since then he's had rallies of 28,000 in Portland, 27,500 in LA, 15,000 in Seattle.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/09/bernie-sanders-breaks-record-drawing-15000-supporters-seattle-rally.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sanders-california-20150811-story.html

Based on Bernie's supporters in my facebook feed, a stadium full of Bernieites can maybe sorta afford to support him to the tune of about $2k, total, if you promise not to cash the check until next week.  And oh yeah, I'm not going to be able to get off work on Election Day, I gotta work a double shift at the diner.

Hilarious!  The Sanders supporters in my feed are the kind of mindless drones who love everything and everyone on the left side of the spectrum with out any filters, reservations, or thought.  They seem completely uneducated when it comes to economics, business and the real world.

Yes, the common theme I see in Bernie supports I know is "I'm poor and should get some rich people's money."  How and why, specifically, are conspicuously absent, but they're certain that the CEO of, say, GE is ripping them off somehow.

Yeah, that definitely explains why Sanders is the leading vote-getter in this poll.

You do understand that we are discussing what is popping up in FB feeds rather than what supposed voters are telling pollsters, right?  There might be a tiny bit of a difference between those two populations.

You do realize he was talking about the poll AT THE TOP OF THIS THREAD, right? There might be a tiny bit of difference between idiots on FB and people on this forum.

or is there?

Who is "he"? 

MY point was half joking, and half pointing out that "filling a stadium" does not necessarily translate into "obtaining votes", especially when your demographic is known to be fickle, undependable (in a voting sense) and lacking in contributions.

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #621 on: August 12, 2015, 10:28:25 AM »

Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.

"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.

zoltani

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #622 on: August 12, 2015, 10:41:20 AM »
MY point was half joking, and half pointing out that "filling a stadium" does not necessarily translate into "obtaining votes", especially when your demographic is known to be fickle, undependable (in a voting sense) and lacking in contributions.

That is a hell of a lot of assumptions right there. But you're right, maybe he needs some big corporations that will let him live in their pocket.

Gin1984

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #623 on: August 12, 2015, 10:42:41 AM »

Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.

"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.
This woman and her husband were not interested in an abortion, in fact they called the fetus their "miracle child" http://www.texasobserver.org/texas-new-abortion-law-is-driving-women-to-extremes/:
Instead they learned that their miracle child had a brain defect so severe that the doctor described it as incompatible with life. Gasping, Sarah asked whether surgery or drugs could fix the condition, but the doctor shook his head. “If you’re looking for a baby that’s going to go to school and play soccer,” he told her, “this is not that child.” The doctor offered to do extra tests but added that the results would be the same. The baby would most likely be stillborn and if it survived birth, would suffer seizures every day of its short life. “If that were me,” Sarah thought, “I’d rather go to God.”
They ended up having to leave Texas for the abortion.  And if we get a republican in the White House these laws are going to become the laws of the land.  And given that judges have already forcibly restrained women because of being pregnant, don't think you can just go out of the country if it passes.

Basenji

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #624 on: August 12, 2015, 10:47:44 AM »
MY point was half joking, and half pointing out that "filling a stadium" does not necessarily translate into "obtaining votes", especially when your demographic is known to be fickle, undependable (in a voting sense) and lacking in contributions.

That is a hell of a lot of assumptions right there. But you're right, maybe he needs some big corporations that will let him live in their pocket.

Obama had those fickle young voters and won, twice.

MDM

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #625 on: August 12, 2015, 11:16:07 AM »
And given that judges have already forcibly restrained women because of being pregnant, don't think you can just go out of the country if it passes.

Are you referring to http://www.rt.com/uk/229303-compulsory-sterilization-woman-disabilities/ or something else?

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #626 on: August 12, 2015, 11:19:40 AM »

Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.

"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.
This woman and her husband were not interested in an abortion, in fact they called the fetus their "miracle child" http://www.texasobserver.org/texas-new-abortion-law-is-driving-women-to-extremes/:
Instead they learned that their miracle child had a brain defect so severe that the doctor described it as incompatible with life. Gasping, Sarah asked whether surgery or drugs could fix the condition, but the doctor shook his head. “If you’re looking for a baby that’s going to go to school and play soccer,” he told her, “this is not that child.” The doctor offered to do extra tests but added that the results would be the same. The baby would most likely be stillborn and if it survived birth, would suffer seizures every day of its short life. “If that were me,” Sarah thought, “I’d rather go to God.”
They ended up having to leave Texas for the abortion.  And if we get a republican in the White House these laws are going to become the laws of the land.  And given that judges have already forcibly restrained women because of being pregnant, don't think you can just go out of the country if it passes.

Yes, I understand shit happens and that there are lots of terrible possibilities.

I simply don't vote based on a small possibility on one specific issue.  It's not that important to me, versus, say, tax policy, which will certainly affect me.  What you are describing is an extremely emotional, irrational way to cast a vote.

ncornilsen

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #627 on: August 12, 2015, 11:24:22 AM »

Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.

"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.
This woman and her husband were not interested in an abortion, in fact they called the fetus their "miracle child" http://www.texasobserver.org/texas-new-abortion-law-is-driving-women-to-extremes/:
Instead they learned that their miracle child had a brain defect so severe that the doctor described it as incompatible with life. Gasping, Sarah asked whether surgery or drugs could fix the condition, but the doctor shook his head. “If you’re looking for a baby that’s going to go to school and play soccer,” he told her, “this is not that child.” The doctor offered to do extra tests but added that the results would be the same. The baby would most likely be stillborn and if it survived birth, would suffer seizures every day of its short life. “If that were me,” Sarah thought, “I’d rather go to God.”
They ended up having to leave Texas for the abortion.  And if we get a republican in the White House these laws are going to become the laws of the land.  And given that judges have already forcibly restrained women because of being pregnant, don't think you can just go out of the country if it passes.

Nonsense. That's EXACTLY the equivalent of saying "Hillary's going to take ALL your guns if she gets in office!!!1!"

Gin1984

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #628 on: August 12, 2015, 11:31:20 AM »
And given that judges have already forcibly restrained women because of being pregnant, don't think you can just go out of the country if it passes.

Are you referring to http://www.rt.com/uk/229303-compulsory-sterilization-woman-disabilities/ or something else?
Oh, no.  I am not talking about that.  I'm talking about a woman who was forced on bed rest because her doctors decide that was the course of treatment she should take for her fetus to have the best chance of life.  http://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-court-orders-pregnant-woman-bed-rest-medical/story?id=9561460
Keep in mind that stress can increase your risk of miscarriage and no study has shown that bed rest itself (vs reducing stress etc) will stop a miscarriage.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-court-orders-pregnant-woman-bed-rest-medical/story?id=9561460
And no, it was not only case.

Gin1984

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #629 on: August 12, 2015, 11:36:16 AM »

Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.

"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.
This woman and her husband were not interested in an abortion, in fact they called the fetus their "miracle child" http://www.texasobserver.org/texas-new-abortion-law-is-driving-women-to-extremes/:
Instead they learned that their miracle child had a brain defect so severe that the doctor described it as incompatible with life. Gasping, Sarah asked whether surgery or drugs could fix the condition, but the doctor shook his head. “If you’re looking for a baby that’s going to go to school and play soccer,” he told her, “this is not that child.” The doctor offered to do extra tests but added that the results would be the same. The baby would most likely be stillborn and if it survived birth, would suffer seizures every day of its short life. “If that were me,” Sarah thought, “I’d rather go to God.”
They ended up having to leave Texas for the abortion.  And if we get a republican in the White House these laws are going to become the laws of the land.  And given that judges have already forcibly restrained women because of being pregnant, don't think you can just go out of the country if it passes.

Yes, I understand shit happens and that there are lots of terrible possibilities.

I simply don't vote based on a small possibility on one specific issue.  It's not that important to me, versus, say, tax policy, which will certainly affect me.  What you are describing is an extremely emotional, irrational way to cast a vote.
Thank you for deciding that voting to be able to keep my right to be an autonomous human being with equal rights under the law is emotional and irrational especially when people have died because of lack of access to abortions.  You know there were people who agreed with you.  They were the ones back when women were trying to gain the right to vote, who said women should not be allowed to vote.  I'll give your opinion all the consideration it deserves.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #630 on: August 12, 2015, 11:41:42 AM »
So Sanders isn't suggesting randomly hiring 13 million people - he's suggesting that the country's infrastructure needs serious investment in order to remain competitive.  This is a mainstream opinion held by almost every major analysis of the US infrastructure.

To me this is huge. Our country's infrastructure is literally falling apart.

That is mostly due to decades of misappropriation of highway tax funds at the state & local levels.  Simply spending more on major infrastructure projects without dealing with the bidding system will lead to more graft, not necessarily improved infrastructure.

Exactly.  There are few people who think we don't need improved infrastructure.  The problem is trusting the government to do it efficiently and without graft.

You say that as if the government doesn't hire it out to private contractors already. If there's inefficiency and graft, it's either in the procurement process (which "small government" wouldn't really improve) or in the private industry itself.


Yes, I'm saying this.  It's a ratio of both, but I believe that the procurement process is where most of the graft and loss can be located.

Quote

No, the real problem -- and I say this as an engineer who would tend be biased in favor of more infrastructure -- is that a lot of the infrastructure we've built in the past 50 years has been a gigantic mistake. It was never sustainable and was never going to become sustainable; we just apparently didn't realize it at the time.

The trouble is that when we allow suburban sprawl, we increase the amount of transportation infrastructure we need not proportionally to population, but beyond proportionally to it. When everybody lives in a city ("point A") it's easy for them to get where they need to go. When there are a few suburbs (points B, C, and D) and everybody commutes into the city then it's still relatively easy to accommodate their needs by building highways in a star topology.

Your argument for a city's transportation as a network complexity problem is accurate enough, but the issue I have with your analysis is that the causes for such complexity to arise in the first place were incrediblely complex themselves.  Simply arguing against urban sprawl, as if that was actually something that anyone could control, as opposed to the results of economic forces at play during the age of cheap motor fuel.  The problem that you cite is already self-correcting.  A lot of younger adults prefer urban environments, in part, to avoid owning a private vehicle at all.
-

While it's true that our nationwide mess of a transportation network is complex, it is certainly not naturally occurring. Transportation and urban development have the most obscured signals of any major segment (transportation is about 1/6 of US economy) of the economy, other than healthcare, of course (also ~1/6). Other posters nailed the issue on zoning; it's commonly discriminatory (or at least designed to be) and negatively impacts development patterns to have houses spread far apart and to set up zoning for single-use, when mixed use (store under a residence) is such a vastly more productive configuration. The length of roadway per capita has increased tenfold in many cities and towns since the 1950s, and the maintenance on all that is a huge drag.

Then there's the issue that more of our expressways should probably be toll roads. I lived near DC for four years, and it's something incredible to see how bad people are at picking where to live there. They live far out from where they need to work, but make sure they get a town near an interstate exit. Then they and all the other people in their new neighborhood clog up the road, so it's no longer fast to get into town. SO then they build a massive expansion of the interstate. It's either too little, too late, or worse yet it may actually do the job. That's worse because it paves the way for the next town further out to sprout and cause the problem anew.

Within towns you have terrible zoning that cause things like big box stores with huge parking lots. Minimum parking requirements baffle me; who demands that an ugly store, as a requirement of its presence, ruin a bunch more land with parking that won't be filled more than about two Saturdays per year?!? But those stores don't get to pay their costs, because the town is the one who pays the HUGE cost of running sewage and huge roads to those places, which are substantially less productive per unit of area than smaller stores in downtown-type areas. And people complain that big-box stores push the local guys out of business, but its the huge systematic subsidies for the Wal-Marts that make local stores' more intrinsically sensible development patterns, suddenly uncompetitive.

Then add to all of this the number of towns where towns build roads so wide that people are uncomfortable to cross the street. That's why you shouldn't ask the fire department how wide they need the roads, and why you certainly shouldn't value their answer when they inevitably answer "wide enough to three-point turn in my hook-and-ladder, please".

MDM

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #631 on: August 12, 2015, 11:45:56 AM »
Oh, no.  I am not talking about that.  I'm talking about a woman who was forced on bed rest because her doctors decide that was the course of treatment she should take for her fetus to have the best chance of life.  http://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-court-orders-pregnant-woman-bed-rest-medical/story?id=9561460
Thanks.  Yes, it seems the one judge who issued that order overreached.  A Florida Circuit Court did overturn that decision: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_v._Florida.

Gin1984

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #632 on: August 12, 2015, 11:54:57 AM »
Oh, no.  I am not talking about that.  I'm talking about a woman who was forced on bed rest because her doctors decide that was the course of treatment she should take for her fetus to have the best chance of life.  http://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-court-orders-pregnant-woman-bed-rest-medical/story?id=9561460
Thanks.  Yes, it seems the one judge who issued that order overreached.  A Florida Circuit Court did overturn that decision: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_v._Florida.
Except it is not the only case.  https://www.minnpost.com/community-voices/2014/02/more-pregnant-women-being-stripped-their-rights
And it is an example of a larger trend that planned by of the right. 
A quote that should worry any woman or frankly any man who cares for women: Other states, including Texas, Kentucky, South Carolina, Utah, and Wisconsin, “automatically invalidate a woman’s advance directive if she is pregnant.

Midwest

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #633 on: August 12, 2015, 11:56:40 AM »

If you know anything about how devolopment works for a fetus, and understand that we can't see developmental errors until the 20 week ultrasound, yes saying that you can't have an abortion after twenty weeks is extreme.  It is saying that women can make a decision, for their medical care, while the fetus is still incapable of surviving outside of womb.  It is saying that women can't get all the information they need to make an informed decision and then decide because of an arbitrary deadline.   Oh, yea, except it was not arbitrary, they made it twenty weeks so women who found out that a fetus would not developmental normally, including being born and living very short periods of time with extreme amount of pain, could not make a decision they disagreed with.

Gin - The majority of the public disagrees with your position.  Not with abortion in general, but late term abortion specifically (late term being defined as 20 weeks plus).  When the majority of people agree with Kasich on this issue, I don't think extreme his the proper term to describe is position.

Regarding my knowledge of the subject, I've actually been in the position of having the choice put upon my wife and myself after the ultrasound when an abnormality was found at 18 or 20 weeks.  I've given the subject a lot of thought since then.

The real argument is what point the fetus becomes a baby. Naral would argue at birth.  I (and many others) would argue some time prior to birth. 

Lastly, the law Kasich signed contains an exception for medical emergencies so the mothers health should be protected as much as possible.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 12:00:33 PM by Midwest »

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #634 on: August 12, 2015, 11:59:22 AM »

Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.

"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.
This woman and her husband were not interested in an abortion, in fact they called the fetus their "miracle child" http://www.texasobserver.org/texas-new-abortion-law-is-driving-women-to-extremes/:
Instead they learned that their miracle child had a brain defect so severe that the doctor described it as incompatible with life. Gasping, Sarah asked whether surgery or drugs could fix the condition, but the doctor shook his head. “If you’re looking for a baby that’s going to go to school and play soccer,” he told her, “this is not that child.” The doctor offered to do extra tests but added that the results would be the same. The baby would most likely be stillborn and if it survived birth, would suffer seizures every day of its short life. “If that were me,” Sarah thought, “I’d rather go to God.”
They ended up having to leave Texas for the abortion.  And if we get a republican in the White House these laws are going to become the laws of the land.  And given that judges have already forcibly restrained women because of being pregnant, don't think you can just go out of the country if it passes.

Yes, I understand shit happens and that there are lots of terrible possibilities.

I simply don't vote based on a small possibility on one specific issue.  It's not that important to me, versus, say, tax policy, which will certainly affect me.  What you are describing is an extremely emotional, irrational way to cast a vote.
Thank you for deciding that voting to be able to keep my right to be an autonomous human being with equal rights under the law is emotional and irrational especially when people have died because of lack of access to abortions.

No.  I'm saying voting based on the fear of that outcome, which is tiny, is emotional and irrational. 

We don't vote yes/no on issues in the US, we vote for people who have a wide variety of views on various issues.  Therefore, a cost/benefit analysis must be done on a person's stance on each issue to rank importance the voter places on the issue along with the position the politician has taken.  Based on this analysis, I've determined that abortion rights is a low-priority issue for me, because it is unlikely to affect me or my family in a significant way. 


Quote
You know there were people who agreed with you.  They were the ones back when women were trying to gain the right to vote, who said women should not be allowed to vote.

No.  Just no. 

Jack

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #635 on: August 12, 2015, 11:59:52 AM »
Personally, I dislike the religious right immensely, but as I am a straight, white, married male, their idiotic views tend not to impact me or my family, and thus they aren't issues on which I base my vote.  I wish they'd adapt them, because I think they'd be much more successful if they left alone gays, abortions, and birth control, but as a practical matter it doesn't impact my life and thus sway my vote.
Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.
"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.

Wow, you actually don't get the point I was making, do you?

I'll spell it out for you: if "they" succeed in taking away women's rights and gay rights, they'll keep taking away other rights until they take away one that you actually do care about. (Unless you happen to be of exactly the same ideology as them, in which case you might be okay with it.)

FYI, Martin Niemöller was a Protestant pastor who spent 7 years in a NAZI concentration camp.
  • He wasn't a Jew.
  • He wasn't a Communist.
  • He wasn't a Gypsy.
  • He wasn't disabled.
In fact, he wasn't a member of any of the demographic groups commonly thought of as victims of the Holocaust. What he was -- the only thing he was -- was "not a NAZI." And that was enough to get him sent to the camp.

The point is, failing to oppose injustice just because it doesn't affect you personally is cowardly and immoral (not to mention counterproductive, as Niemöller learned the hard way). The religious right's views do affect you because they affect society and you are a part of society. You have a responsibility to defend those who would be harmed, even if you would not be harmed yourself.

regulator

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #636 on: August 12, 2015, 12:24:11 PM »
Well, Clinton was found to have sent classified info on her private email account. I wonder if she can survive that.

<-- This alleged-Democrat sure as Hell hopes not!

I was somewhat sanguine about the email issue until this. Having had a security clearance and knowing the issue of security violations, I'm very nervous for her alternating with pissed off. This is not a private, albeit inequitable power-balanced, blowjob, it's end your career stuff. We'll see. Ugh. I gotta do actual work so I can retire!

I am super pissed she has gotten away with this (so far).

Chris22

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #637 on: August 12, 2015, 12:30:59 PM »
Personally, I dislike the religious right immensely, but as I am a straight, white, married male, their idiotic views tend not to impact me or my family, and thus they aren't issues on which I base my vote.  I wish they'd adapt them, because I think they'd be much more successful if they left alone gays, abortions, and birth control, but as a practical matter it doesn't impact my life and thus sway my vote.
Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.
"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.

Wow, you actually don't get the point I was making, do you?

I'll spell it out for you: if "they" succeed in taking away women's rights and gay rights, they'll keep taking away other rights until they take away one that you actually do care about. (Unless you happen to be of exactly the same ideology as them, in which case you might be okay with it.)

FYI, Martin Niemöller was a Protestant pastor who spent 7 years in a NAZI concentration camp.
  • He wasn't a Jew.
  • He wasn't a Communist.
  • He wasn't a Gypsy.
  • He wasn't disabled.
In fact, he wasn't a member of any of the demographic groups commonly thought of as victims of the Holocaust. What he was -- the only thing he was -- was "not a NAZI." And that was enough to get him sent to the camp.

The point is, failing to oppose injustice just because it doesn't affect you personally is cowardly and immoral (not to mention counterproductive, as Niemöller learned the hard way). The religious right's views do affect you because they affect society and you are a part of society. You have a responsibility to defend those who would be harmed, even if you would not be harmed yourself.

So basically I'm morally obligated to vote in agreement with you?  Okay.  Nice. 

Midwest

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #638 on: August 12, 2015, 12:35:08 PM »
Personally, I dislike the religious right immensely, but as I am a straight, white, married male, their idiotic views tend not to impact me or my family, and thus they aren't issues on which I base my vote.  I wish they'd adapt them, because I think they'd be much more successful if they left alone gays, abortions, and birth control, but as a practical matter it doesn't impact my life and thus sway my vote.
Apparently, you have never heard of Martin Niemöller.
"They"are going to take away my right to a wedding I already had or an abortion I am not interested in getting?  Not sure how comparison follows.

Wow, you actually don't get the point I was making, do you?

I'll spell it out for you: if "they" succeed in taking away women's rights and gay rights, they'll keep taking away other rights until they take away one that you actually do care about. (Unless you happen to be of exactly the same ideology as them, in which case you might be okay with it.)

FYI, Martin Niemöller was a Protestant pastor who spent 7 years in a NAZI concentration camp.
  • He wasn't a Jew.
  • He wasn't a Communist.
  • He wasn't a Gypsy.
  • He wasn't disabled.
In fact, he wasn't a member of any of the demographic groups commonly thought of as victims of the Holocaust. What he was -- the only thing he was -- was "not a NAZI." And that was enough to get him sent to the camp.

The point is, failing to oppose injustice just because it doesn't affect you personally is cowardly and immoral (not to mention counterproductive, as Niemöller learned the hard way). The religious right's views do affect you because they affect society and you are a part of society. You have a responsibility to defend those who would be harmed, even if you would not be harmed yourself.

So basically I'm morally obligated to vote in agreement with you?  Okay.  Nice.

Well he did bring up nazi's.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Bob W

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #639 on: August 12, 2015, 12:47:22 PM »
So the logic is that the Nazis killed or tried to kill virtually everyone who wasn't a Nazi.  That the Republican party is opposed to killing millions of babies in the womb each year and opposed to "illegal" aliens from any country taking US citizen's jobs and social benefits.   Therefore Jeb Bush is a Nazi and plans to exterminate vast portions of the US population?   I'm I reading that right?

Damn those Republicans are tricky bastards.  Say you are prolife and then just go kill a bunch of people. 


Jack

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #640 on: August 12, 2015, 12:53:29 PM »
So basically I'm morally obligated to vote in agreement with you?  Okay.  Nice.

No, but IMO you're morally obligated to prioritize civil rights issues above economic issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

So? First of all, sooner or later, somebody was going to do it. Second, I reject all corollaries.

Finally, note that your citation states: "The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics, or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies,[citation needed] if that was the explicit topic of conversation, because a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect committing the fallacist's fallacy, or inferring that an argument containing a fallacy must necessarily come to incorrect conclusions." Given that this is in fact a discussion (in part) of civil rights, comparisons are not inappropriate.

So the logic is that... the Republican party is opposed to [civil rights for anyone who disagrees with them].

FTFY.

Midwest

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #641 on: August 12, 2015, 01:07:21 PM »


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

So? First of all, sooner or later, somebody was going to do it. Second, I reject all corollaries.

Saying somebody was going to do it (compare Republicans and the Christian right to Nazi's) doesn't make it an accurate comparison. 

MDM

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #642 on: August 12, 2015, 01:09:01 PM »
Oh, no.  I am not talking about that.  I'm talking about a woman who was forced on bed rest because her doctors decide that was the course of treatment she should take for her fetus to have the best chance of life.  http://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-court-orders-pregnant-woman-bed-rest-medical/story?id=9561460
Thanks.  Yes, it seems the one judge who issued that order overreached.  A Florida Circuit Court did overturn that decision: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_v._Florida.
Except it is not the only case.  https://www.minnpost.com/community-voices/2014/02/more-pregnant-women-being-stripped-their-rights
And it is an example of a larger trend that planned by of the right. 
A quote that should worry any woman or frankly any man who cares for women: Other states, including Texas, Kentucky, South Carolina, Utah, and Wisconsin, “automatically invalidate a woman’s advance directive if she is pregnant.

Different people can look at the same thing and come away with different impressions.  The two of us meet both the "any woman or ... any man who cares for women" criteria, but are not terribly worried about the bolded comment.  This follows from the assumption that the advance directive is coming into play due to the brain death of the woman in question.

Someone will no doubt fact check this: we suspect that the vast majority of people in the US would support abortion in cases of rape, incest, or to save the mother's life - leaving the extremes to those who say "yes, ever" or "no, never".

Jack

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #643 on: August 12, 2015, 01:15:49 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

So? First of all, sooner or later, somebody was going to do it. Second, I reject all corollaries.

Saying somebody was going to do it (compare Republicans and the Christian right to Nazi's) doesn't make it an accurate comparison.

No, I meant that sooner or later somebody was going to mention NAZIs (which is just a re-statement of Godwin's law). I didn't mean to imply anything about the nature of the mentioning in that sentence. In other words, sooner or later Godwin's law would have been invoked, so it is of no consequence that it was by me.

brooklynguy

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #644 on: August 12, 2015, 01:55:42 PM »
Don't forget Godwin's Second Law.

I suppose with this post I'm fulfilling Godwin's Third Law, if there is such a thing.  Someone else please point out that I just did so so we can all see Godwin's Fourth Law in action.

Basenji

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #645 on: August 12, 2015, 01:59:39 PM »
Don't forget Godwin's Second Law.

I suppose with this post I'm fulfilling Godwin's Third Law, if there is such a thing.  Someone else please point out that I just did so so we can all see Godwin's Fourth Law in action.
So pointed.

And...escaping because scary name calling wanna go look at puppy videos
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 02:03:06 PM by Basenji »

MoonShadow

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #646 on: August 12, 2015, 02:11:37 PM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Which is exactly the same thing that the left is trying to do with firearms.  Do you honestly think that either of these issues will go anywhere in this generation?  Of course not, they are both just issues to rile their respective bases; but at the same time, both sides have to honestly defend their side, lest the line actually move.  It's as if politics were being debated in a manner similar to how the First World War was fought in France.  The only way to end the stalemate would be to surrender.

dramaman

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #647 on: August 12, 2015, 02:18:19 PM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Which is exactly the same thing that the left is trying to do with firearms.  Do you honestly think that either of these issues will go anywhere in this generation?  Of course not, they are both just issues to rile their respective bases; but at the same time, both sides have to honestly defend their side, lest the line actually move.  It's as if politics were being debated in a manner similar to how the First World War was fought in France.  The only way to end the stalemate would be to surrender.

I think this is a false equivalency. Maybe its just me, but I just don't see major groups on the left opposed to ALL firearms, promoting constitutional amendments to remove the 2nd amendment or any similar actions that are even close to the anti-abortion groups who wield considerable influence in the GOP, publicly opposing all abortions. Certainly you don't see Democrat presidential candidates with public position that they want to remove all guns like the several GOP presidential candidates (hello, Marco Rubio) who have public positions against abortion that don't allow for any exceptions.

Gin1984

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #648 on: August 12, 2015, 02:25:58 PM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Which is exactly the same thing that the left is trying to do with firearms.  Do you honestly think that either of these issues will go anywhere in this generation?  Of course not, they are both just issues to rile their respective bases; but at the same time, both sides have to honestly defend their side, lest the line actually move.  It's as if politics were being debated in a manner similar to how the First World War was fought in France.  The only way to end the stalemate would be to surrender.
No it is not.  California is quite a liberal area especially the Bay Area.  Multiple of my friends have guns.  One of my friends has enough guns to fill two large gun safes.  No problems there.  Most democrats want reasonable restrictions.  Yes, some have gotten so fed up with the refusal of any restriction that they have said no guns.  But there is not a well planned (and executed) left wing plan to limit guns with specifically written legislation in multiple states to attempt to keep people from having guns.  Trust me, if there was, Ca would one of the first states to try it.   

Midwest

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #649 on: August 12, 2015, 02:39:28 PM »

ETA having said that, it's very hard to reconcile the religious right position and my own on so many issues. It's a deal breaker, say for abortion, because it is clear that each restriction to abortion access is meant to be a step in a direction towards no choice at all.

Which is exactly the same thing that the left is trying to do with firearms.  Do you honestly think that either of these issues will go anywhere in this generation?  Of course not, they are both just issues to rile their respective bases; but at the same time, both sides have to honestly defend their side, lest the line actually move.  It's as if politics were being debated in a manner similar to how the First World War was fought in France.  The only way to end the stalemate would be to surrender.
No it is not.  California is quite a liberal area especially the Bay Area.  Multiple of my friends have guns.  One of my friends has enough guns to fill two large gun safes.  No problems there.  Most democrats want reasonable restrictions.  Yes, some have gotten so fed up with the refusal of any restriction that they have said no guns.  But there is not a well planned (and executed) left wing plan to limit guns with specifically written legislation in multiple states to attempt to keep people from having guns.  Trust me, if there was, Ca would one of the first states to try it.

Gin - The only republican I've heard talking about actual legislation to outlaw abortion lately is Huckabee. 

With regard to guns, we have tons of laws on guns in this country already.

Some (not all) democrats don't want reasonable restrictions, they want more and more restrictions (than don't work) to make it difficult or impossible to own or use a firearm.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 02:44:25 PM by Midwest »