Poll

Out of current presidential candidates, who is most likely to get your vote? Number in parenthesis is their current(9/28/15) National poll percentage within their party

Hillary Clinton D (40.8%)
35 (18.3%)
Bernie Sanders D (27.6%)
83 (43.5%)
Joe Biden, assuming he runs D (20%)
5 (2.6%)
Jim Webb D (0.8%)
3 (1.6%)
Martin O'Malley D (0.8%)
0 (0%)
Donald Trump R (23.4%)
12 (6.3%)
Ben Carson R (17%)
11 (5.8%)
Carly Fiorina R (11.6%)
2 (1%)
Marco Rubio R (9.6%)
8 (4.2%)
Jeb Bush R (9.2%)
1 (0.5%)
Ted Cruz R (6.2%)
3 (1.6%)
John Kasich R (3.6%)
4 (2.1%)
Chris Christie R (3.4%)
2 (1%)
Mike Huckabee R (3.2%)
1 (0.5%)
Rand Paul R (2.4%)
13 (6.8%)
Other
8 (4.2%)

Total Members Voted: 190

Author Topic: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)  (Read 66509 times)

Glenstache

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #250 on: November 05, 2015, 03:36:55 PM »
I love the recent story of him believing that the pyramids were built for grain storage based on biblical interpretation.   It may well be true --- but it just sounds off. 

It sounds off because it is. This is demonstrably so frigging far from the truth is should disqualify him from being considered for pretty much any elected office. Or, as the liberal pit that is Forbes magazine says:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/11/05/archaeologists-to-ben-carson-ancient-egyptians-wrote-down-why-the-pyramids-were-built/

If this kind of shit doesn't end his political career, it is an indictment of the Republican voters and establishment.

regulator

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #251 on: November 05, 2015, 04:04:33 PM »
I love the recent story of him believing that the pyramids were built for grain storage based on biblical interpretation.   It may well be true --- but it just sounds off. 

It sounds off because it is. This is demonstrably so frigging far from the truth is should disqualify him from being considered for pretty much any elected office. Or, as the liberal pit that is Forbes magazine says:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/11/05/archaeologists-to-ben-carson-ancient-egyptians-wrote-down-why-the-pyramids-were-built/

If this kind of shit doesn't end his political career, it is an indictment of the Republican voters and establishment.

I wonder if at some point the Republicans get tired of the dog and pony show and field a reasonable candidate.  I am dying for someone to vote for since I cannot stomach Clinton and would only vote for Col. Sanders because I think we would have 4 blessed years of gridlock (assuming he lived that long).  So far, the front runners for the Republican party (Trump and Carson) make me think I will either be voting for Sanders or writing in Donald Duck.

MoonShadow

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #252 on: November 05, 2015, 04:08:38 PM »
Kinda back on topic ---  (about 87 days till the Iowa primary)

The elections of Tuesday, while small, could be an indicator of the future.

Kentucky elected a Republican Tea Party outsider newcomer businessman vs. a former Dem Governor.    The day before the polls had the dem winning by a large margin but the result was a large margin for the Tea Party guy.

This discrepancy is easily explained.  The polling in Kentucky is almost entirely done by the major newspapers, all of which have a noticeable liberal bias in both their own paper & their (mostly urban) readerships.  Jack Conway won every county with a major city except Covington, which sits right across from Cincinnati.  Matt Bevin won, literally, every other county in the state.  I don't quite know what it means for the future, but very few Repubs ever win a statewide seat in Kentucky, because it's a Blue Dog Democrat state; with nearly twice as many registered Dems to Repubs.  So for Bevin to pull off such a crushing victory over a well known Democrat, as well as drag along three more Repubs to take 4 out of 5 of the constitutionally required statewide offices is unprecedented I believe.  That said, the breed of Democrat around here doesn't typically look like your average Dem, with strong preferences for traditional family values; pro-2nd, anti-abortion, etc.  Kentucky polls around 64% in favor of a constitutional ban on elective abortion, so this isn't a borderline issue here.

Quote
  Ohio shot down legal weed
Not exactly.  Ohio shot down a state constitutional amendment that would have de-criminalized minor possession of MJ, but would have also established a legal cabal of 10 or so producers with the privilege of producing, transporting & retail sale of MJ.  Nor was there any provision for new companies to compete, the cabal was a sealed membership, which the amendment part would have made very difficult to alter.  That last part turned out to be a poisoned pill for most supporters of recreational or medicinal MJ.

Quote
and Texas (Huston?) voted for sane sexual identity laws. 

This is my take also.  Most modern Wal-mart's & Targets these days have a third option for a "family" or "private" restroom anymore anyway.  Dad's don't like taking their baby daughters into the open men's restroom to change a child in full view of strangers' children anyway.  The public has been quietly demanding the third option for many years, and just recently Carson mentioned making it part of new building code; so that new schools & public buildings over a certain size would have to have a third option if they have "open" (as opposed to individually lockable, single stall bathrooms) public bathrooms.  Most schools I've been to have had at least one individually lockable bathroom for years already, they have just been typically reserved for the staff.  My high school had two of them back in the 80's.

Quote
This apparently shows a willingness of voters to continue moving right over the last 5-8 years.   The vast majority of states, cities, counties and both federal houses  are now Republican controlled. 
As with the Ky example above, I'm not convinced that this is about the electorate moving towards Republicans, per se.  I see it as the retoric of the Democratic party moving too far away from traditional 'family values' to still sound reasonable to parents.  The majority of adults might be perfectly fine with a transgender male using a woman's restroom in public, so long as there were a way to ensure that said person was truly transgender, and not simply just a pervert.  But when parents stop to think about that question, they eventually get to the point of asking, "How can we be sure?" and then trend towards the idea that the right of women & girls to be comfortable in public trumps the right of a particular transitioning transgender male to be comfortable in public, before the transition is complete.  So this might simply be the practical rule of 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' playing out, in the case of the Houston vote.  Time will tell, I suppose; but I predict that those Republican controlled state legislatures are not in solid territory, if they were to try to drag the nation the opposite direction based upon ideology alone.

Quote

State houses are now 68 out of 98 Republican.  For reference that number would be considered a huge landslide and mandate if applied to the presidential election.  70/30

Bernie is pretty much toast, (sorry all you Feel the Bern voters here) so one must assume that the much hated HRC will be the Dem candidate.      Pretty sure Bill will vote for her reluctantly.   No need to show me polls on this.   In fact,  Hillary will be the poster child for the Republican get out the vote campaign.  Pretty much any Republican or even a zombie off  the Walking Dead will beat her.

I said months ago that anyone of the original 16 Repubs running for the nomination, except Jeb Bush; would beat either Hillary or Bernie.  Jeb could beat Bernie, but not Hillary; simply because in a dynasty versus dynasty matchup; who would you choose?

Matt_D

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #253 on: November 05, 2015, 06:06:19 PM »
State house status, regardless of which way it leans, can't possibly be taken as a reliable indicator of which way a state in totality will vote for a presidential election; nearly every state (there are a couple exceptions) has been gerrymandered to a ridiculous degree.

I also think it's very hard to apply off-year election results to presidential races. I haven't seen convincing data on that.

I suppose it is possible Trump will be president, but we're a heck of a long way away from the general election still and his polling is getting worse, not better. As the race slowly whittles down to a sane number of candidates, and the less-diehard political followers start to get involved, there's a lot of potential for change - and still a pretty good chance he won't even win the nomination.

yuka

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #254 on: November 06, 2015, 11:14:38 AM »
State house status, regardless of which way it leans, can't possibly be taken as a reliable indicator of which way a state in totality will vote for a presidential election; nearly every state (there are a couple exceptions) has been gerrymandered to a ridiculous degree.

I also think it's very hard to apply off-year election results to presidential races. I haven't seen convincing data on that.

I suppose it is possible Trump will be president, but we're a heck of a long way away from the general election still and his polling is getting worse, not better. As the race slowly whittles down to a sane number of candidates, and the less-diehard political followers start to get involved, there's a lot of potential for change - and still a pretty good chance he won't even win the nomination.

So, Carson has to be gone after all that West Point lying stuff that just came out. Of course, I said the same thing about Hillary Clinton's high-efficiency spillage operation, so even I don't place much faith in my political analysis.

Having said that, if Carson drops out soon, where are those likely voters moving? I'm a fan of the theory that Trump has already hit his ceiling, so the ex-Carsonites will have to go to saner candidates.

Jeremy E.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #255 on: November 06, 2015, 11:17:22 AM »
State house status, regardless of which way it leans, can't possibly be taken as a reliable indicator of which way a state in totality will vote for a presidential election; nearly every state (there are a couple exceptions) has been gerrymandered to a ridiculous degree.

I also think it's very hard to apply off-year election results to presidential races. I haven't seen convincing data on that.

I suppose it is possible Trump will be president, but we're a heck of a long way away from the general election still and his polling is getting worse, not better. As the race slowly whittles down to a sane number of candidates, and the less-diehard political followers start to get involved, there's a lot of potential for change - and still a pretty good chance he won't even win the nomination.

So, Carson has to be gone after all that West Point lying stuff that just came out. Of course, I said the same thing about Hillary Clinton's high-efficiency spillage operation, so even I don't place much faith in my political analysis.

Having said that, if Carson drops out soon, where are those likely voters moving? I'm a fan of the theory that Trump has already hit his ceiling, so the ex-Carsonites will have to go to saner candidates.
I think if he were to drop out, most would go to Rubio, but he's not going to drop out

dramaman

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #256 on: November 06, 2015, 11:38:16 AM »
I see this as the beginning of the end for Carson. His whole appeal was based not on experience, but rather on character. The West Point revelation reveals the cracks in his character, namely that his personal story cannot be trusted. Sure other candidates have trust issues as well, but they are not basing their entire appeal on their character. Plus Carson's campaign operation doesn't have the experience in dealing with these kinds of media storms. Finally, Carson has a brand to protect. I believe that a big reason why he is running for President is not to win, but rather increase his brand value such that he can command even more money from book deals and appearance fees. Once he comes to the conclusion that continuing the race is putting his brand at risk, he will quickly drop out, probably claiming that the media is persecuting him and he doesn't want to put his family through it any longer.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 11:40:13 AM by dramaman »

beltim

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #257 on: November 06, 2015, 11:44:55 AM »
   So at this point it is 75% likelihood Trump will win the General Election.   

This is fascinating.  So if Trump is 75% in your eyes, what's the remainder of the probability?

regulator

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #258 on: November 06, 2015, 12:13:35 PM »
State house status, regardless of which way it leans, can't possibly be taken as a reliable indicator of which way a state in totality will vote for a presidential election; nearly every state (there are a couple exceptions) has been gerrymandered to a ridiculous degree.

I also think it's very hard to apply off-year election results to presidential races. I haven't seen convincing data on that.

I suppose it is possible Trump will be president, but we're a heck of a long way away from the general election still and his polling is getting worse, not better. As the race slowly whittles down to a sane number of candidates, and the less-diehard political followers start to get involved, there's a lot of potential for change - and still a pretty good chance he won't even win the nomination.

So, Carson has to be gone after all that West Point lying stuff that just came out. Of course, I said the same thing about Hillary Clinton's high-efficiency spillage operation, so even I don't place much faith in my political analysis.

Having said that, if Carson drops out soon, where are those likely voters moving? I'm a fan of the theory that Trump has already hit his ceiling, so the ex-Carsonites will have to go to saner candidates.

It is my expectation that if Clinton does not succumb to the criminally negligent sending of classified email through her private server during the primary, it will be used to crucify her in the general election.

Jeremy E.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #259 on: November 06, 2015, 12:26:29 PM »
I see this as the beginning of the end for Carson. His whole appeal was based not on experience, but rather on character. The West Point revelation reveals the cracks in his character, namely that his personal story cannot be trusted. Sure other candidates have trust issues as well, but they are not basing their entire appeal on their character. Plus Carson's campaign operation doesn't have the experience in dealing with these kinds of media storms. Finally, Carson has a brand to protect. I believe that a big reason why he is running for President is not to win, but rather increase his brand value such that he can command even more money from book deals and appearance fees. Once he comes to the conclusion that continuing the race is putting his brand at risk, he will quickly drop out, probably claiming that the media is persecuting him and he doesn't want to put his family through it any longer.
I would agree that he started this trying to become more famous, but now that he sees how good he's doing and that he has a chance, he's going to gun for it. Most people that vote aren't very informed about candidates, they will do 5 minutes of research before the general election and that will be all they know about a candidate. This is for a typical voter, I'd say in states like Iowa etc. this is maybe not the case.

Jack

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #260 on: November 06, 2015, 12:32:46 PM »
It is my expectation that if Clinton does not succumb to the criminally negligent sending of classified email through her private server during the primary, it will be used to crucify her in the general election.

I wish the DNC leadership would pull their heads out of their asses and realize this (along with the fact of Clinton's basic sociopathic nature). But no, those fuckers are so corrupt that they're okay with the fact that their chairperson was previously Clinton's campaign manager and therefore blatantly biased against Sanders. The democrats are letting the "establishment machine politics" faction screw themselves over.

Bob W

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #261 on: November 06, 2015, 12:37:43 PM »
I see this as the beginning of the end for Carson. His whole appeal was based not on experience, but rather on character. The West Point revelation reveals the cracks in his character, namely that his personal story cannot be trusted. Sure other candidates have trust issues as well, but they are not basing their entire appeal on their character. Plus Carson's campaign operation doesn't have the experience in dealing with these kinds of media storms. Finally, Carson has a brand to protect. I believe that a big reason why he is running for President is not to win, but rather increase his brand value such that he can command even more money from book deals and appearance fees. Once he comes to the conclusion that continuing the race is putting his brand at risk, he will quickly drop out, probably claiming that the media is persecuting him and he doesn't want to put his family through it any longer.

I'm guessing he won't drop out but soldier on until the primaries are half over.  The whole being a liar thing is overrated.   It is assumed by the electorate that all politicians are liars.   That was especially baked into Carson from the get go.   He is evangelical after all.   All's he needs to do is say he misspoke,  apologize and move on.   If lying uniformly disabled a candidate then the Clintons would have been toast long ago.   

At least Carson sticking around is what Trump will hope for and need to win.   It is probably true that Trump's ceiling in the  primaries is around 30ish give or take.  So if Carson were to fade quickly that would leave yuuuug openings for Cruz and Rubio.   

Rubio is a snake but he would have the backing of the pro amnesty anti-American minority of the Republican leadership who are looking for a puppet now that Jeb is heading to zero.   What the pubs don't realize is that each time they promote anti-American republicans for national office is that they are giving up power to the pro American base of the party. 

What do you think about the 12 protesters against Trump's SNL hosting?   It seems odd that 10 or 12 groups were listed as "organizing" the protest but only 12 people at the peak showed up.     That has got to tell us that there is very little if any real push back against Trump from the general legal and Americanized Hispanic population.   I'm sure Trump is pleased to see that.   

Trump is doubling down on the border wall with his latest Iowa radio spots.    The latest Iowa poll seems to show Trump leading there as well.   I would guess with Carson's big fat lie deal hanging over his head that Iowa will start looking for other religious folks to fill the gap.   

Should be an interesting week with SNL tomorrow and another debate already on the 10th.  Ben has some explaining to do a the debate.  Please note that Cruz is the only candidate still on friendly terms with the front runner.   

Note also that there are only two other Republican debates scheduled prior to the first primary vote. 

On the Republican side I think we will see a lot of retail hand shaking after this week in early voting states. 

regulator

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #262 on: November 06, 2015, 12:52:21 PM »
It is my expectation that if Clinton does not succumb to the criminally negligent sending of classified email through her private server during the primary, it will be used to crucify her in the general election.

I wish the DNC leadership would pull their heads out of their asses and realize this (along with the fact of Clinton's basic sociopathic nature). But no, those fuckers are so corrupt that they're okay with the fact that their chairperson was previously Clinton's campaign manager and therefore blatantly biased against Sanders. The democrats are letting the "establishment machine politics" faction screw themselves over.

I am hoping that we do not end up with Clinton v. Trump.  If so, for the first time since I turned 18 I won't be able to vote in the Presidential election.  At least Sanders v. Trump would leave me the option of voting for gridlock.

Bob W

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #263 on: November 06, 2015, 12:52:42 PM »
   So at this point it is 75% likelihood Trump will win the General Election.   

This is fascinating.  So if Trump is 75% in your eyes, what's the remainder of the probability?
Excellent question ---  We would have to go with 12.5% Clinton and split 12.5% between Rubio and Cruz.    I guess theoretically we could assign points to Carson by why waist the time?   

Of course,  as I often am,  I could be totally wrong and completely talking out my ass -- just like everyone else. 

Why Clinton so low?   IMHO pendulums swing both ways.   We have been in the early stages of the swing back for several years.   I know many folks on this site think that the ACA is great and even many conservatives are liking it but it is pissing off lots of people,  who were used to having much lower premiums and deductibles.  They have seen their premiums skyrocket and deductible go up to the point they feel uninsured.   

There is no real cure for the ACA but people will still vote against it just as they would vote against cancer.  That and Hillary is despised enough on the Republican side that the base will be on fire to vote against her.   People actually kinda liked Obama.   Even Bill will have to hold his nose to vote HRC.   


* disclaimer -- my family derives virtually 100% of our income from government. 

infogoon

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #264 on: November 06, 2015, 12:54:28 PM »
I am hoping that we do not end up with Clinton v. Trump.  If so, for the first time since I turned 18 I won't be able to vote in the Presidential election.  At least Sanders v. Trump would leave me the option of voting for gridlock.

There are third party candidates. In fact, living in a state that is as reliably Democratic as possible, the third parties are where my votes go in national elections.

regulator

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #265 on: November 06, 2015, 01:00:08 PM »
I am hoping that we do not end up with Clinton v. Trump.  If so, for the first time since I turned 18 I won't be able to vote in the Presidential election.  At least Sanders v. Trump would leave me the option of voting for gridlock.

There are third party candidates. In fact, living in a state that is as reliably Democratic as possible, the third parties are where my votes go in national elections.

WADR, that would be the equivalent of writing in Donald Duck.

beltim

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #266 on: November 06, 2015, 01:28:29 PM »
   So at this point it is 75% likelihood Trump will win the General Election.   

This is fascinating.  So if Trump is 75% in your eyes, what's the remainder of the probability?
Excellent question ---  We would have to go with 12.5% Clinton and split 12.5% between Rubio and Cruz.    I guess theoretically we could assign points to Carson by why waist the time?   

Of course,  as I often am,  I could be totally wrong and completely talking out my ass -- just like everyone else.

Thanks for responding.

I, of course, think you're wrong.  The national vote - and generic vote - is such that in the absence of any good data, I think the odds of a Republican winning and the odds of a Democrat winning are both 50%.

And I don't think we have any data to meaningfully sway those odds.  Ballots for specific candidates this far out – before the nominees are even determined – are close to worthless.  Republicans tend to overstate the dislike of Clinton - her favorability numbers are better than I think all of the Republican candidates except Carson.  Democrats tend to overstate their chances too (for example, arguing that since the Democratic candidate won 5 of the last 6 popular votes that they'll win this one too).  So I don't think any of the arguments out there are convincing enough to move the needle off 50/50.

Glenstache

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #267 on: November 06, 2015, 01:34:02 PM »
I, of course, think you're wrong.  The national vote - and generic vote - is such that in the absence of any good data, I think the odds of a Republican winning and the odds of a Democrat winning are both 50%.

And I don't think we have any data to meaningfully sway those odds.  Ballots for specific candidates this far out – before the nominees are even determined – are close to worthless.  Republicans tend to overstate the dislike of Clinton - her favorability numbers are better than I think all of the Republican candidates except Carson.  Democrats tend to overstate their chances too (for example, arguing that since the Democratic candidate won 5 of the last 6 popular votes that they'll win this one too).  So I don't think any of the arguments out there are convincing enough to move the needle off 50/50.

Stop being rational. We all know that that internet discussions of politics are no place for that even if the general distribution of presidential electoral results over the last decades support your 50/50 assertion.

beltim

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #268 on: November 06, 2015, 01:45:54 PM »
I, of course, think you're wrong.  The national vote - and generic vote - is such that in the absence of any good data, I think the odds of a Republican winning and the odds of a Democrat winning are both 50%.

And I don't think we have any data to meaningfully sway those odds.  Ballots for specific candidates this far out – before the nominees are even determined – are close to worthless.  Republicans tend to overstate the dislike of Clinton - her favorability numbers are better than I think all of the Republican candidates except Carson.  Democrats tend to overstate their chances too (for example, arguing that since the Democratic candidate won 5 of the last 6 popular votes that they'll win this one too).  So I don't think any of the arguments out there are convincing enough to move the needle off 50/50.

Stop being rational. We all know that that internet discussions of politics are no place for that even if the general distribution of presidential electoral results over the last decades support your 50/50 assertion.

I know you are, but what am I?

dramaman

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #269 on: November 06, 2015, 02:08:25 PM »
I see this as the beginning of the end for Carson. His whole appeal was based not on experience, but rather on character. The West Point revelation reveals the cracks in his character, namely that his personal story cannot be trusted. Sure other candidates have trust issues as well, but they are not basing their entire appeal on their character. Plus Carson's campaign operation doesn't have the experience in dealing with these kinds of media storms. Finally, Carson has a brand to protect. I believe that a big reason why he is running for President is not to win, but rather increase his brand value such that he can command even more money from book deals and appearance fees. Once he comes to the conclusion that continuing the race is putting his brand at risk, he will quickly drop out, probably claiming that the media is persecuting him and he doesn't want to put his family through it any longer.

I'm guessing he won't drop out but soldier on until the primaries are half over.  The whole being a liar thing is overrated.   It is assumed by the electorate that all politicians are liars.   That was especially baked into Carson from the get go.   He is evangelical after all.   All's he needs to do is say he misspoke,  apologize and move on.   If lying uniformly disabled a candidate then the Clintons would have been toast long ago.

Lying doesn't uniformly disable a candidate. Getting caught lying or embellishing can be a problem for a candidate who's sole appeal is his sterling character. Carson is particularly vulnerable in that area. His appeal, his brand value relies on his remarkable story of transformation and character. The more that gets called into question, the more his stock will fall.

Even now, his campaign is on the defensive, trying to justify why his claim of having a scholarship to West Point was not a lie. He cannot admit to lying or even misspeaking because that would jeopardize his brand. His only response is to attack the mainstream media. Yet, whereas a day ago, one might be inclined to give his remarkable, but unverifiable stories the benefit of the doubt, there is now reason to doubt just how true any of them are.

MDM

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #270 on: November 06, 2015, 02:47:30 PM »
I see this as the beginning of the end for Carson. His whole appeal was based not on experience, but rather on character. The West Point revelation reveals the cracks in his character, namely that his personal story cannot be trusted. Sure other candidates have trust issues as well, but they are not basing their entire appeal on their character. Plus Carson's campaign operation doesn't have the experience in dealing with these kinds of media storms. Finally, Carson has a brand to protect. I believe that a big reason why he is running for President is not to win, but rather increase his brand value such that he can command even more money from book deals and appearance fees. Once he comes to the conclusion that continuing the race is putting his brand at risk, he will quickly drop out, probably claiming that the media is persecuting him and he doesn't want to put his family through it any longer.
I'm guessing he won't drop out but soldier on until the primaries are half over.  The whole being a liar thing is overrated.   It is assumed by the electorate that all politicians are liars.   That was especially baked into Carson from the get go.   He is evangelical after all.   All's he needs to do is say he misspoke,  apologize and move on.   If lying uniformly disabled a candidate then the Clintons would have been toast long ago.
Lying doesn't uniformly disable a candidate. Getting caught lying or embellishing can be a problem for a candidate who's sole appeal is his sterling character. Carson is particularly vulnerable in that area. His appeal, his brand value relies on his remarkable story of transformation and character. The more that gets called into question, the more his stock will fall.
Even now, his campaign is on the defensive, trying to justify why his claim of having a scholarship to West Point was not a lie. He cannot admit to lying or even misspeaking because that would jeopardize his brand. His only response is to attack the mainstream media. Yet, whereas a day ago, one might be inclined to give his remarkable, but unverifiable stories the benefit of the doubt, there is now reason to doubt just how true any of them are.

Much as Republican extremists are wont to latch on to any Clinton statement that may not be precise and overreact, Democrat extremists are taking a paragraph from Carson's 25 year old book that includes this:
Quote
Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point. I didn’t refuse the scholarship outright, but I let them know that a military career wasn’t where I saw myself going. As overjoyed as I felt to be offered such a scholarship, I wasn’t really tempted. The scholarship would have obligated me to spend four years in military service after finishing college, precluding my chances to go on to medical school. I knew my direction – I wanted to be a doctor, and nothing would divert me or stand in the way. Of course the offer of a full scholarship flattered me. I was developing confidence in my abilities – just like my mother had been telling me for at least he past ten years.

Maybe others see a huge distinction between "offered a full scholarship" vs. "offered admission to a school that doesn't charge tuition to attendees" but....

Democrats who continue to cry wolf at Carson run the analogous risk of Republicans over-criticizing Clinton.

dramaman

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #271 on: November 06, 2015, 03:13:56 PM »
I see this as the beginning of the end for Carson. His whole appeal was based not on experience, but rather on character. The West Point revelation reveals the cracks in his character, namely that his personal story cannot be trusted. Sure other candidates have trust issues as well, but they are not basing their entire appeal on their character. Plus Carson's campaign operation doesn't have the experience in dealing with these kinds of media storms. Finally, Carson has a brand to protect. I believe that a big reason why he is running for President is not to win, but rather increase his brand value such that he can command even more money from book deals and appearance fees. Once he comes to the conclusion that continuing the race is putting his brand at risk, he will quickly drop out, probably claiming that the media is persecuting him and he doesn't want to put his family through it any longer.
I'm guessing he won't drop out but soldier on until the primaries are half over.  The whole being a liar thing is overrated.   It is assumed by the electorate that all politicians are liars.   That was especially baked into Carson from the get go.   He is evangelical after all.   All's he needs to do is say he misspoke,  apologize and move on.   If lying uniformly disabled a candidate then the Clintons would have been toast long ago.
Lying doesn't uniformly disable a candidate. Getting caught lying or embellishing can be a problem for a candidate who's sole appeal is his sterling character. Carson is particularly vulnerable in that area. His appeal, his brand value relies on his remarkable story of transformation and character. The more that gets called into question, the more his stock will fall.
Even now, his campaign is on the defensive, trying to justify why his claim of having a scholarship to West Point was not a lie. He cannot admit to lying or even misspeaking because that would jeopardize his brand. His only response is to attack the mainstream media. Yet, whereas a day ago, one might be inclined to give his remarkable, but unverifiable stories the benefit of the doubt, there is now reason to doubt just how true any of them are.

Much as Republican extremists are wont to latch on to any Clinton statement that may not be precise and overreact, Democrat extremists are taking a paragraph from Carson's 25 year old book that includes this:
Quote
Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point. I didn’t refuse the scholarship outright, but I let them know that a military career wasn’t where I saw myself going. As overjoyed as I felt to be offered such a scholarship, I wasn’t really tempted. The scholarship would have obligated me to spend four years in military service after finishing college, precluding my chances to go on to medical school. I knew my direction – I wanted to be a doctor, and nothing would divert me or stand in the way. Of course the offer of a full scholarship flattered me. I was developing confidence in my abilities – just like my mother had been telling me for at least he past ten years.

Maybe others see a huge distinction between "offered a full scholarship" vs. "offered admission to a school that doesn't charge tuition to attendees" but....

Democrats who continue to cry wolf at Carson run the analogous risk of Republicans over-criticizing Clinton.

Carson was NOT offered admission. That is the whole point of why his story is B.S. For years, his story was that he was offered a scholarship to West Point and turned it down to become a doctor. That sounds pretty darn impressive. Look at me, I turned down West Point!

In fact, he was NEVER offered admission and never a scholarship. At most he was encouraged to apply to West Point with assurances that he could get in. But he never applied. So its basically "I was encouraged to apply to West Point, but didn't." Not nearly as impressive a story.

This isn't crying wolf and it is NOT something just written in a 25 year old book. He repeated the claim in a new book published this year and then on Facebook a few months ago, posting that he had been offered a slot to West Point. Up until today, he has solidly repeated this claim that he had a scholarship to go to West Point and turned it down. He only got caught when Politico checked with West Point and they confirmed there were no records of him ever applying.

The problem for Carson is that other than his remarkable story and character, he has NOTHING. He has no experience whatsoever. He is a policy light weight. His understanding of the economy and foreign policy is pathetic. These lies or embellishments (however you want to call them) damage him WAY more than someone like Clinton who is not running her entire campaign based on her being a saint.

MoonShadow

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #272 on: November 06, 2015, 05:54:23 PM »
. He only got caught when Politico checked with West Point and they confirmed there were no records of him ever applying.


This is not evidence of a lie.  I'd be shocked if West Point actually did keep even a majority of the applications they received from 30+ years ago.  That was prior to computers, after all.  Government agencies aren't known for the completeness of their paper archives, beyond the Library of Congress.

RangerOne

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #273 on: November 06, 2015, 05:56:05 PM »
If Clinton wins the nomination she will be tough to beat. The email issue may drive more anger her way from the right but most of that noise is coming from FOX news. The other major networks have an inordinate love of Hillary.

Hillary is highly unlikely to lose the votes that would go to nearly any democratic candidate. The only baggage on the democratic side that will likely hurt swing votes are the increased health premiums due to the ACA. This reality is probably the easiest ticket into the white house. We all know that Hillary is a continuation of the current administration and the ACA.

There are other factors though which will likely boost her.

- She is very well known, so she is easy to vote for. No one but Donald Trump and Bush(maybe) can say the same.

- She would be the first female candidate to make it to the general election. She should definitely pull in a lot of undecided female votes.

- We have seen that Trump has trouble debating with women(Fiorina) because he has a big mouth. He is the kind of opponent that makes it all to easy to play the sex card.

- She is probably the most experienced candidate in the race and one of the smartest.

- Oh and people still love Bill Clinton, the silver tongued devil that he is. It certainly won't hurt her popularity to think that if shit hits the fan she can bounce ideas off her former US president husband.

I really think that Clinton is probably the worst match up for Donald Trump. His crass demeanor towards his opponents plays well against other men but the media will have a field day if he starts trying to bully Hillary in a way that can be construed as sexist. The funny thing is Hillary oozes more Testosterone than all the other Democratic hopefuls put together.

MoonShadow

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #274 on: November 06, 2015, 06:23:02 PM »
If Clinton wins the nomination she will be tough to beat. The email issue may drive more anger her way from the right but most of that noise is coming from FOX news. The other major networks have an inordinate love of Hillary.
I'll grant you this one.

Quote

Hillary is highly unlikely to lose the votes that would go to nearly any democratic candidate. The only baggage on the democratic side that will likely hurt swing votes are the increased health premiums due to the ACA. This reality is probably the easiest ticket into the white house. We all know that Hillary is a continuation of the current administration and the ACA.
This is delusional, and exactly what the RNC is hoping the Democratic base believes.

Quote
There are other factors though which will likely boost her.

- She is very well known, so she is easy to vote for. No one but Donald Trump and Bush(maybe) can say the same.
She is well known, but that can hurt as well as help.  She is best known as Bill's wife.  But that isn't a qualification for presidency.

Quote

- She would be the first female candidate to make it to the general election. She should definitely pull in a lot of undecided female votes.

I favor the exact opposite argument; that while many women might vote for her simply because she is a woman, almost all of that crowd would have voted Democratic anyway.  While on the flip side, there is minority of women who would vote against her, because they don't want her to be that first female president; and that number is not primarily Republican.  So while the first part works in her favor, it's net gain is likely negligible; while the second part works against her, and likely is not a negligible effect.

Quote
- We have seen that Trump has trouble debating with women(Fiorina) because he has a big mouth. He is the kind of opponent that makes it all to easy to play the sex card.
Trump can debate women just fine, he's actively trying to avoid the 'war on women' label.  If he were to relentlessly attack Fiorina during the primary season, he would be easy to label during the general election as soon as he went after Clinton.  Also, Fiorina is a valid vice-president, and choosing her would almost completely negate the 'first woman president' advantage.

Quote

- She is probably the most experienced candidate in the race and one of the smartest.

In case you haven't noticed, experience in government counts against everyone this time around; at least according to the polling.  This is one reason Trump is polling so well.  And intelligence is irrelevant, no one who is dim gets this far.  Hillary won't be the smartest person in the room in any debate this time around.

Quote

- Oh and people still love Bill Clinton, the silver tongued devil that he is. It certainly won't hurt her popularity to think that if shit hits the fan she can bounce ideas off her former US president husband.


I'll grant you this one also.  This is probably the only reason she keeps the louse around.

Quote
I really think that Clinton is probably the worst match up for Donald Trump. His crass demeanor towards his opponents plays well against other men but the media will have a field day if he starts trying to bully Hillary in a way that can be construed as sexist. The funny thing is Hillary oozes more Testosterone than all the other Democratic hopefuls put together.

See above about the 'sexist' issue.  She does look like she's a bit butch these days, I'll grant.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 06:29:22 PM by MoonShadow »

Kris

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #275 on: November 06, 2015, 06:26:10 PM »
. He only got caught when Politico checked with West Point and they confirmed there were no records of him ever applying.


This is not evidence of a lie.  I'd be shocked if West Point actually did keep even a majority of the applications they received from 30+ years ago.  That was prior to computers, after all.  Government agencies aren't known for the completeness of their paper archives, beyond the Library of Congress.

When they called him on it, Carson clarified that he did not apply to West Point.

And there is no such thing as a full scholarship to West Point.  It is a tax-payer funded academy.  No student pays to go to school there.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 06:28:42 PM by Kris »

MoonShadow

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #276 on: November 06, 2015, 06:27:10 PM »
. He only got caught when Politico checked with West Point and they confirmed there were no records of him ever applying.


This is not evidence of a lie.  I'd be shocked if West Point actually did keep even a majority of the applications they received from 30+ years ago.  That was prior to computers, after all.  Government agencies aren't known for the completeness of their paper archives, beyond the Library of Congress.

When they called him on it, Carson clarified that he did not apply to West Point.

I see.  Well, that was stupid.

Yup, he's out.

Kris

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #277 on: November 06, 2015, 06:31:31 PM »
. He only got caught when Politico checked with West Point and they confirmed there were no records of him ever applying.


This is not evidence of a lie.  I'd be shocked if West Point actually did keep even a majority of the applications they received from 30+ years ago.  That was prior to computers, after all.  Government agencies aren't known for the completeness of their paper archives, beyond the Library of Congress.

When they called him on it, Carson clarified that he did not apply to West Point.

I see.  Well, that was stupid.

Yup, he's out.

I actually don't agree. At least, not yet.  His fans will not care. Because they are not fact-driven.

However, I do believe that these falsehoods will impede him from broadening his base. So in that way, I think he won't be able to increase his percentages unless he manages to pull off something dramatic that makes those people forget the cumulative effect of his false statements and his lunatic theories on things like the pyramids. 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 08:31:41 PM by Kris »

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #278 on: November 06, 2015, 06:38:35 PM »

MDM

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #279 on: November 06, 2015, 08:29:19 PM »
In fact, he was NEVER offered admission and never a scholarship. At most he was encouraged to apply to West Point with assurances that he could get in.
Eh, not much difference between those if he was so encouraged.

Quote
...when Politico checked with West Point and they confirmed there were no records of him ever applying.
Well, yes, because there are no records of anyone applying from that time who did not attend.  As the ABC story linked above notes, "A West Point spokesman told ABC News that records from applicants who are not admitted to the school, don’t finish the full application process or are admitted but do not attend are thrown out after three years."

Quote
The problem for Carson is that other than his remarkable story and character, he has NOTHING.
And, as the joke goes, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"  If it turns out that Carson made significant misrepresentations, then shame on him.  Of course, if that would disqualify Carson, then what about ______? (Fill in your preferred presidential candidate)

From what has come out so far it seems more of an attack by innuendo instead of a substantive issue.

ncornilsen

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #280 on: November 07, 2015, 08:03:38 AM »
You guys realize Politico made up most of that story, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/newly-minted-frontrunner-ben-carson-faces-new-scrutiny-of-his-life-story/2015/11/06/8877e032-84b8-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html

http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/06/politico-admits-fabricating-a-hit-piece-on-ben-carson/#.Vj0_0zQmMeo.twitter

Also, how Carson would go down in flames over this, and clinton hasn't ended up in JAIL for her email server thing, flabbergasts me. (there ya go, MDM)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 08:05:24 AM by ncornilsen »

Kris

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #281 on: November 07, 2015, 08:29:57 AM »
You guys realize Politico made up most of that story, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/newly-minted-frontrunner-ben-carson-faces-new-scrutiny-of-his-life-story/2015/11/06/8877e032-84b8-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html

http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/06/politico-admits-fabricating-a-hit-piece-on-ben-carson/#.Vj0_0zQmMeo.twitter

Also, how Carson would go down in flames over this, and clinton hasn't ended up in JAIL for her email server thing, flabbergasts me. (there ya go, MDM)

Well, The Federalist is pretty riight-leaning, so no surprise they would say that they would use such inflammatory language about Politico.

But as a liberal who thinks Carson is a complete lunatic, I do not think that this issue is as big as the media has made it.  I think Carson used exaggerated and misleading language, but not that he made this up.  I believe he was told informallyby a West Point recruiter that he could get in and have a free ride (which all successful applicants get), not that he applied and was offered a scholarship (which do not exist for WP).  My husband was offered the same thing in the 1970s as a National Merit Scholar, even though he hadn't applied, either.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #282 on: November 07, 2015, 08:51:58 AM »
You guys realize Politico made up most of that story, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/newly-minted-frontrunner-ben-carson-faces-new-scrutiny-of-his-life-story/2015/11/06/8877e032-84b8-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html

http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/06/politico-admits-fabricating-a-hit-piece-on-ben-carson/#.Vj0_0zQmMeo.twitter

Also, how Carson would go down in flames over this, and clinton hasn't ended up in JAIL for her email server thing, flabbergasts me. (there ya go, MDM)

Well, The Federalist is pretty riight-leaning, so no surprise they would say that they would use such inflammatory language about Politico.

But as a liberal who thinks Carson is a complete lunatic, I do not think that this issue is as big as the media has made it.  I think Carson used exaggerated and misleading language, but not that he made this up.  I believe he was told informallyby a West Point recruiter that he could get in and have a free ride (which all successful applicants get), not that he applied and was offered a scholarship (which do not exist for WP).  My husband was offered the same thing in the 1970s as a National Merit Scholar, even though he hadn't applied, either.

This is how I read it too. There is a pattern of telling to enhance his narrative over many years. At some point the telling may have overridden what actually happened be it West Point, stabbing, or whatever. At someone who has a campaign largely based on character, having that kernel of truth be a moving target is difficult.

The thing that mystifies me, is how a brain surgeon who supposedly has scientific training is so consistently anti-science, blatantly wrong about the science (independent of disagreeing with it), and so much time selling snake oil products. i can understand the last one if there was enough $$. Even accounting for his evangelical faith, there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on there. That is not a brain I want making decisions. In terms of potential for theology influencing foreign policy etc in spite of best available knowledge, this seems in line with and maybe a step beyond even Reagan's absorption with Armageddon/cold war beliefs. It is actually very scary to think about how Carson would interact with the world as a President.

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-01-03/opinion/op-32475_1_president-reagan

mrpercentage

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #283 on: November 07, 2015, 05:23:42 PM »
Anyone see @rabite tweet about Trump challenging Carson to a knife fight? Hilarious #Anonymous

Kriegsspiel

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #284 on: November 07, 2015, 05:49:00 PM »
Anyone see @rabite tweet about Trump challenging Carson to a knife fight? Hilarious #Anonymous

Protesters rage against Amazon while wearing masks bought on mom's Amazon Prime account

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Sometimes even anticapitalist protesters find it hard to resist a great deal.

It turns out that some protesters who gathered at Seattle's Westlake park to condemn Amazon's "corporate greed" were wearing masks they...


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Bob W

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #285 on: November 08, 2015, 10:27:21 AM »
Let's not forget Trump took down Fiarino,  a woman with. Ast executive experience.  HRC has zero leadership experience.

dramaman

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #286 on: November 08, 2015, 11:37:25 AM »
Let's not forget Trump took down Fiarino,  a woman with. Ast executive experience.

I think Trump's attacks on Fiorino have not been that effective. His first attack came off as misogynistic. His second basically amounted to both him and Fiorina arguing over who had the worse business record. In neither instance did he really come off looking that good.

  HRC has zero leadership experience.

Wow, I must have been seriously tripping from 2009 - 2013 when I could have sworn that HRC was Secretary of State. I've really got to lay off those mushrooms. ;)

sol

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #287 on: November 08, 2015, 12:09:46 PM »
Wow, I must have been seriously tripping from 2009 - 2013 when I could have sworn that HRC was Secretary of State. I've really got to lay off those mushrooms. ;)

One of you is definitely tripping, but I don't think it's the one doing the mushrooms.

mrpercentage

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #288 on: November 08, 2015, 03:24:25 PM »

I find Trump both an interesting pick and a scary one. Imagine him by the big red button. He looks at the camera for effect and says you're fired. Then he presses it with a satisfied look on his face. I am afraid he is a dark horse.

Carsons knife fighting is over the top. I can't relate.

We need a Trump vs Carson debate. Fiarona needs to stay in until we can see what it looks like when squared off with Clinton.

dramaman

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #289 on: November 08, 2015, 06:35:12 PM »
I find it unfortunate that Graham is being left out of the next set of debates. I don't necessarily agree with his foreign policy positions he has the most expertise in foreign policy. He also does not come across as an angry ideologue, and of all the candidates, I think he is the most down to earth and sincere.

Cressida

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #290 on: November 08, 2015, 07:57:12 PM »
She [Hillary Clinton] is best known as Bill's wife. 

You wish.

mrpercentage

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #291 on: November 08, 2015, 10:24:36 PM »
Anyone read about Inverted Totalitarianism? Boy does it seem relevant. We are picking personalities not politics.

As described by Wiki
Quote
What is absent is the political, the commitment to finding where the common good lies amidst the welter of well-financed, highly organized, single-minded interests rabidly seeking governmental favors and overwhelming the practices of representative government and public administration by a sea of cash

Im still looking for a peoples shepherd. One who will look out for the people and include the low and middle class while sidestepping corporations.

candymaldy

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #292 on: November 09, 2015, 12:12:11 AM »

Are we all agreed then that RCP is generally unbiased, as it often presents both left-leaning and right-leaning links about the same subject?

Or do Republicans not like seeing liberal spin and call RCP left-leaning, while Democrats don't like seeing conservative spin and call RCP right-leaning?

Or does someone have reasonably recent, objective data showing something else entirely?

RCP is right leaning.

Started by self proclaimed conservatives, majority owned by Forbes, why would anyone think that RCP is unbiased?

MDM

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #293 on: November 09, 2015, 01:41:00 AM »

Are we all agreed then that RCP is generally unbiased, as it often presents both left-leaning and right-leaning links about the same subject?

Or do Republicans not like seeing liberal spin and call RCP left-leaning, while Democrats don't like seeing conservative spin and call RCP right-leaning?

Or does someone have reasonably recent, objective data showing something else entirely?

RCP is right leaning.

Started by self proclaimed conservatives, majority owned by Forbes, why would anyone think that RCP is unbiased?

Maybe because it tends to present both left- and right-leaning articles on various topics?  That does upset people from both extremes who don't like reading contrary views.

Bob W

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #294 on: November 09, 2015, 08:14:49 AM »
Let's not forget Trump took down Fiarino,  a woman with. Ast executive experience.

I think Trump's attacks on Fiorino have not been that effective. His first attack came off as misogynistic. His second basically amounted to both him and Fiorina arguing over who had the worse business record. In neither instance did he really come off looking that good.

  HRC has zero leadership experience.

Wow, I must have been seriously tripping from 2009 - 2013 when I could have sworn that HRC was Secretary of State. I've really got to lay off those mushrooms. ;)

Some would say that a political appointment as a secretary doesn't qualify as "leadership."   In that position she is best remembered for gasping as Bin Laden was killed,  illegally using a private email account and Bengazi.   Meh,  it matters not -- She is the primary reason that Republican voters will not sit on their hands next November and Dems will sit at home.   

In other news ---

The latest Reuters poll (a five day rolling average of likely Republican Primary voters)  has Carson at 27,  Trump at 23 and Rubio and Cruz at 14.   

Just when I thought it couldn't get any stranger Carson bumps up on MSM reports that he thinks pyramids are Joseph's grain storage facilities and that he is likely pretty creative with the truth.     Lot's of people said this controversy would help him and I didn't want to believe it.    I believe now. 

Meanwhile I watched SNL for the first time in many years.  What a worthless show -- The writing was just terrible and the cast even worst.  Trump was a better actor than the cast --- go figure.   In DTs favor was that he garnered the highest ratings in many years and about 12 protestors showed up who left when the show started.   

I also watched the Sunday morning news/talk shows for the first time in years.  Trump was on everyone of them---- free advertising is nice.  Carson also showed but damn he is hard to watch.   Sanders made a showing.   I could actually vote for this guy vs. most of the Pub field.  He does have the advantage of not being owned directly by the wall street bankers. 

Too bad the table is set for "vote for me because I'm a woman"   IMHO the most sexist thing a Pres candidate has ever said.  Then I thought --"well maybe she is just clarifying for the liberals as many of them seem confused about their gender identity and she does appear more masculine than Bill at this point."   

And so it goes -- 83 days till the primaries.    Time enough for Rubio and Cruz to get some traction.   

candymaldy

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #295 on: November 09, 2015, 09:00:48 AM »


Are we all agreed then that RCP is generally unbiased, as it often presents both left-leaning and right-leaning links about the same subject?

Or do Republicans not like seeing liberal spin and call RCP left-leaning, while Democrats don't like seeing conservative spin and call RCP right-leaning?

Or does someone have reasonably recent, objective data showing something else entirely?

RCP is right leaning.

Started by self proclaimed conservatives, majority owned by Forbes, why would anyone think that RCP is unbiased?

Maybe because it tends to present both left- and right-leaning articles on various topics?  That does upset people from both extremes who don't like reading contrary views.

That seems like a pretty low bar. So if MSNBC includes left and right leaning commentary on various topics, is it not left leaning?

Wouldn't a more rational definition be either the accuracy of its predictions or the stated perspective of its founders/owners.


dramaman

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #296 on: November 09, 2015, 10:26:43 AM »
  HRC has zero leadership experience.

Wow, I must have been seriously tripping from 2009 - 2013 when I could have sworn that HRC was Secretary of State. I've really got to lay off those mushrooms. ;)

Some would say that a political appointment as a secretary doesn't qualify as "leadership."   In that position she is best remembered for gasping as Bin Laden was killed,  illegally using a private email account and Bengazi.   Meh,  it matters not -- She is the primary reason that Republican voters will not sit on their hands next November and Dems will sit at home.   

Some would say that you are now changing the terms of your original comment in which you claimed that HRC had no leadership experience. Kind of sounds like the way Carson rephrases his claims when they prove to be false. Maybe we ought to say you Pulled a Carson ;)

One can certainly make an argument regarding the quality of HRC's leadership in her role as Secretary of State, but regardless of how she got that job or the grade you give her for the quality of her performance, it still constitutes as a position of leadership. Thus I find it very difficult to verify your claim that HRC has no leadership experience. At this point, I'm starting to think maybe I need to take MORE mushrooms to appreciate your claim ;)


Meanwhile I watched SNL for the first time in many years.  What a worthless show -- The writing was just terrible and the cast even worst.  Trump was a better actor than the cast --- go figure.   In DTs favor was that he garnered the highest ratings in many years and about 12 protestors showed up who left when the show started.

I had a hard time watching as well. My SNL was late 80's, early 90's - Carvey, Hartman, Hooks, Nealon, etc. I thought the opening with the Democratic Forum was funny. They did a good job poking fun at Clinton and Sanders. I got a good laugh over Sanders asking everyone to give him the pennies from their vacuums.

I wouldn't say DT is a great actor. He was mainly just being himself - larger than life.


Too bad the table is set for "vote for me because I'm a woman" IMHO the most sexist thing a Pres candidate has ever said.

I would argue that those folks supporting HRC are more interested in the positions she stands for than her gender. That being said, why should anyone ignore the fact that electing her would be the first time that a woman has ever assumed the office of POTUS? After 200 years, that is a significant deal.


Then I thought --"well maybe she is just clarifying for the liberals as many of them seem confused about their gender identity and she does appear more masculine than Bill at this point."

Really? Criticism of HRC degenerates to this? I can certainly understand and appreciate critiques about Clinton's trustworthiness or competence, but with that kind of ugly ad hominem attack, I'm starting to see why you like Trump so much.

Kris

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #297 on: November 09, 2015, 11:13:48 AM »


Then I thought --"well maybe she is just clarifying for the liberals as many of them seem confused about their gender identity and she does appear more masculine than Bill at this point."

Really? Criticism of HRC degenerates to this? I can certainly understand and appreciate critiques about Clinton's trustworthiness or competence, but with that kind of ugly ad hominem attack, I'm starting to see why you like Trump so much.

That's the thing.  Criticism of HRC from Republicans or Libertarians almost always degenerates to this.  It makes it almost impossible to take anything they say about her seriously.

I mean, I have lots of criticisms of Hillary.  There are many things about her to criticize.  Especially because she has such a long history of political life and so much experience.  But calling her "Billary" or making silly references to her being more masculine than Bill, or not being able to keep him from straying, or anything like that does nothing but make any other potentially substantive criticisms of her seem like just so much more superficial (not to mention sexist) name-calling. 

I'm not saying that conservatives or libertarians are actually trying to convince the more left-leaning of us of their perspectives.  But if they were trying to do so, they could hardly pick a less-effective way.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 11:23:24 AM by Kris »

Bob W

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #298 on: November 09, 2015, 12:52:47 PM »
  HRC has zero leadership experience.

Wow, I must have been seriously tripping from 2009 - 2013 when I could have sworn that HRC was Secretary of State. I've really got to lay off those mushrooms. ;)

Some would say that a political appointment as a secretary doesn't qualify as "leadership."   In that position she is best remembered for gasping as Bin Laden was killed,  illegally using a private email account and Bengazi.   Meh,  it matters not -- She is the primary reason that Republican voters will not sit on their hands next November and Dems will sit at home.   

Some would say that you are now changing the terms of your original comment in which you claimed that HRC had no leadership experience. Kind of sounds like the way Carson rephrases his claims when they prove to be false. Maybe we ought to say you Pulled a Carson ;)

One can certainly make an argument regarding the quality of HRC's leadership in her role as Secretary of State, but regardless of how she got that job or the grade you give her for the quality of her performance, it still constitutes as a position of leadership. Thus I find it very difficult to verify your claim that HRC has no leadership experience. At this point, I'm starting to think maybe I need to take MORE mushrooms to appreciate your claim ;)


Meanwhile I watched SNL for the first time in many years.  What a worthless show -- The writing was just terrible and the cast even worst.  Trump was a better actor than the cast --- go figure.   In DTs favor was that he garnered the highest ratings in many years and about 12 protestors showed up who left when the show started.

I had a hard time watching as well. My SNL was late 80's, early 90's - Carvey, Hartman, Hooks, Nealon, etc. I thought the opening with the Democratic Forum was funny. They did a good job poking fun at Clinton and Sanders. I got a good laugh over Sanders asking everyone to give him the pennies from their vacuums.

I wouldn't say DT is a great actor. He was mainly just being himself - larger than life.


Too bad the table is set for "vote for me because I'm a woman" IMHO the most sexist thing a Pres candidate has ever said.

I would argue that those folks supporting HRC are more interested in the positions she stands for than her gender. That being said, why should anyone ignore the fact that electing her would be the first time that a woman has ever assumed the office of POTUS? After 200 years, that is a significant deal.


Then I thought --"well maybe she is just clarifying for the liberals as many of them seem confused about their gender identity and she does appear more masculine than Bill at this point."

Really? Criticism of HRC degenerates to this? I can certainly understand and appreciate critiques about Clinton's trustworthiness or competence, but with that kind of ugly ad hominem attack, I'm starting to see why you like Trump so much.

Person comes in for a job interview says you should hire me because I'm a woman.  Now that might be a qualifier for hooker or stripper.  The fact that Clinton is using it as a selling point for a professional job is sexist as can be.  Can you imagine any of the male contenders saying vote for me because I'm a man? 

It is both sad and funny (you know? -- humorous) that Clinton is using gender as a selling point at this point in history.  One would assume that most people could recognize Clinton's gender but in the weird and crazy pc world gender has become a transient self identified attribute.   

From a practical standpoint playing the "gender card" is not working for Clinton.  Support among Democratic leaning women is tepid at best.  Clinton's support among conservative leaning women (the exact demographic that participated in electing Bill twice)  is even worse.  Clinton certainly isn't going to pick up male votes by pushing gender.  Democrats continually calling Republicans misogynists and using the term "war on women" isn't working either.   

By the way,  have the Teamsters endorsed anyone yet?  Last I heard they were withholding on HRC and wanting to interview Trump.  That was well over a month ago.   I've heard that union workers will not support Clinton. 

Any truth to that?  Anyone a Union worker here that has ground level intel on union support?   












MDM

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Re: 2016 Presidential Candidate (Updated Candidates)
« Reply #299 on: November 09, 2015, 01:18:18 PM »
That seems like a pretty low bar. So if MSNBC includes left and right leaning commentary on various topics, is it not left leaning?

Wouldn't a more rational definition be either the accuracy of its predictions or the stated perspective of its founders/owners.
Depends on how finely calibrated your balance is.  If, out of 1000 articles, 501 "lean" one way and 499 "lean" another, then one could say the site "leans" in the direction of the 501.  I'd call it evenly balanced, but it's in the eye of the beholder.

 

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