Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 64322 times)

scottish

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #150 on: February 06, 2018, 06:29:40 PM »
How about a gun bounty?   Turn in your guns and receive $$$.   The government destroys firearms as they are turned in.
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scottish

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2018, 03:35:09 PM »
You've got me then.   I can't see what else you can do.   I wonder if gun crime is high because there are so many firearms in the United States?  Or are there just a higher proportion of violent people?
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PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #152 on: February 07, 2018, 08:38:11 PM »
ETA after binge reading this thread my understanding is that while Canada, Aus and several other countries allow long guns (non semi or full auto) they have banned handguns for most average citizens. Is that correct?
With respect to Aus - no, that is not correct.  Handguns are subject to slightly different rules to long arms though.

In Aus you need a "genuine reason" for owning the type of firearm you are applying for.  "Self defence" is not a genuine reason for owning any class of firearm.  So if your average citizen wants to own a handgun because against all evidence to the contrary they mistakenly believe they will be safer with a handgun nearby at all times, they are out of luck.

However, a perfectly legitimate genuine reason is "target shooting".  To prove you want a handgun for target shooting all you have to do is become a member of a handgun target shooting club and shoot there at least 4 times a year.

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #153 on: February 07, 2018, 10:26:25 PM »
If you carry that hand gun on your person in public in Australia you are looking at jail time.

Most of those rules in Cali are sensible. I'm all for mandatory training and certificatation/licensing. The problem with Cali is you can simply go to another state and bypass your restrictions.
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middo

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #154 on: February 07, 2018, 10:35:14 PM »
^Thats pretty interesting. Do you get to take a gun home with you (properly secured and transported of course) or do you have to leave it at the range? If you can take it home I imagine some people would do target shooting but really wanted it for self protection.

As I understand it, you can take it home, but it must be stored in a gun safe.  Police will check initially for a gun safe to be installed correctly, and can and do make occasional checks thereafter for continuing compliance.  This is the same for all guns in Australia.

I would suggest that the question points to an idea of using a gun for self defence.  This is an idea that the vast majority of Australians would reject on the basis of the statistics that come out of the US regarding children killed by accident or killed by each other.  For the average Australian, you make your home safer by not owning a gun. 

At a fundamental level, this entire debate is problematic, as the US appears from the outside to have a different attitude towards guns from the rest of the western world.  Guns, and gun violence are somehow normalised.  The use of a gun to solve a problem other than the destruction of an animal would be abhorrent to most outside the US.  US TV and movies make it clear to us that guns solve problems in the US, either for self defence, or for aggressive reasons.

* Note - as a farm owner I own and use a rifle.  Currently a .22, but it may be upgraded later as I have goats, and the .22 is not very effective at humane destruction of a goat.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #155 on: February 07, 2018, 10:37:25 PM »
I would definitely put a law on the books that prosecutes people who do not secure their weapons. That 12 year old did not buy that gun any more than a toddler who kills a playmate or himself is buying guns. Yet I can't think of one case I've read where a parent was jailed for allowing that situation to happen. I do recall a news story of a four year old who got a hold of a gun his grandfather left lying around the house and accidentally killed his older sister. No one was charged and the family seems to be ostracizing the poor kid because of it. I lost a whole lot of respect for gun owners reading that.

We aren't against guns, and have talked about buying one. My husband is military and weapons trained. However, we have three kids and are not willing to risk the consequences of what might happen if we aren't diligent enough. When they are older, maybe we will.

Also, could we not talk about "criminals" as if everyone who commits crimes are slotted into this "bad guy" mold? Everyone is a good person until they do something stupid. Think of any number of road rage cases where someone grabs a nearby gun and kills someone, then everyone wrings their hands and can't believe the shooter would ever do such a thing because he's never shown any signs of it. People make bad choices. I'd prefer we really stiffen consequences when guns are involved. Make people afraid to fuck up with them.

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #156 on: February 08, 2018, 12:23:37 AM »
That's was kinda of my point. In Cali it's harder for a law abiding citizen to purchase a gun. But very easy for criminals who don't give a fuck about the laws.
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PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #157 on: February 08, 2018, 03:23:47 AM »
^Thats pretty interesting. Do you get to take a gun home with you (properly secured and transported of course) or do you have to leave it at the range? If you can take it home I imagine some people would do target shooting but really wanted it for self protection
As mentioned by others, yes you can store your firearms at home.  However, they must be properly stored in an approved and properly installed safe with the ammunition stored separately.  The police will check to see if the safe is installed prior to issuing a "permit to acquire" any firearm.  They can then do checks to ensure all firearms are stored correctly for however long you hold a firearms licence.  The checks can be unannounced however you have the right to refuse entry unless the Police prearrange a suitable time for the check.

As for the rest of it, I actually agree that it is not a gun law problem in the USA.  It is a cultural problem.  Unfortunately the beliefs that "guns are fun" and that a gun is a suitable instrument for solving problems seem to both be deeply held in the psyche of the USA.  It is highly unlikely that enacting more restrictive gun laws will change that or reduce gun fatalities whether by accident, a single loss of control when there is a fire arm within easy reach or dedicated criminal behaviour.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #158 on: February 08, 2018, 07:43:03 AM »
ETA after binge reading this thread my understanding is that while Canada, Aus and several other countries allow long guns (non semi or full auto) they have banned handguns for most average citizens. Is that correct?

No, you can buy a handgun here (I had a friend in high school who was part of a shooting club who had a handgun) but the rules around it are more restrictive than for rifles/shotguns.  The gun needs to be registered.  You need to prove that you are a member of a gun club that uses handguns for target practice and you need to get authorization to transport the weapon.

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #159 on: February 08, 2018, 10:41:27 AM »
You've got me then.   I can't see what else you can do.   I wonder if gun crime is high because there are so many firearms in the United States?  Or are there just a higher proportion of violent people?
e

Gun crime and the number of guns are very weakly correlated.  Switzerland has tons of guns and low gun crime, the U.S. has tons of guns and high gun crime.  The U.S. is more violent in general than most developed countries.  A lot of the difference is driven by extremely high crime rates per capita in certain areas (e.g., the bad parts of Chicago, Baltimore, St. Louis, most of your small cities south of the mason dixon line, etc).  But I think even relatively rural areas also tend to be more violent than their counterparts in other developed countries. 

Don't know how to address it in the U.S.  Even if you could do a gun confiscation program, you'd still have problems stopping the flow of guns from Mexico.  And even if you could do that, you'd just be shifting violence from gun violence to other forms of violence.  Maybe there's some benefit to that because other forms are less deadly, but there's also a huge negative because those who are less strong and physical no longer have a way to defend themselves. 

The problem comes back to having violente people.  Some of the mass shootings you could stop through mental health treatment, but that would probably require treating a lot of weird but otherwise harmless men pretty poorly.  Some of the mass shootings you could stop through targeting populations particularly likely to produce terrorists, but that would result in particularly terrible treatment of Muslim populations.  Have no clue how to even start addressing the everyday violence from the "underclass".  At one point, stopping the drug war would have probably reduced it a lot.  Not sure how much impact that would have now.  THe gangs are still there and will still be fighting over some revenue source, or maybe just fighting over territory. 

Just a tough nut to crack. 

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #160 on: February 08, 2018, 10:57:57 AM »
there's also a huge negative because those who are less strong and physical no longer have a way to defend themselves.

This isn't really an individual's responsibility though.  It's the job of the police, public planners, and government in a country to provide a safe place for it's people to live.  Relying on guns as some kind of universal protection is silly in a lot of cases.  Guns are not too useful for a lot of vulnerable people  . . those with certain physical disabilities and diseases (Parkinson's, MS, GB syndrome, etc.), the elderly who have trouble with their joints/shaky hands/any form of dementia/Alzheimer's, anyone with mental problems, people with a previous criminal record, etc.  Nobody in a society should tolerate such a poorly run a state of affairs that it is necessary to arm yourself to be safe.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #161 on: February 08, 2018, 01:33:03 PM »
Do we have to do this maths again?

15,586 gun deaths per year
x
85 years (your average age)
=
1,324,810 gun related deaths during your life time.

Yip you read that right, over a million fellow citizens will die due to gun related incidents, on US soil during your life time.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

Yea, but, like 300-600 million will die because of other things?  This is a weird way to look at it?  But you go, get down with your bad self.
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #162 on: February 08, 2018, 01:36:01 PM »
Do we have to do this maths again?

15,586 gun deaths per year
x
85 years (your average age)
=
1,324,810 gun related deaths during your life time.

Yip you read that right, over a million fellow citizens will die due to gun related incidents, on US soil during your life time.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

Yea, but, like 300-600 million will die because of other things?  This is a weird way to look at it?  But you go, get down with your bad self.

Eventually everyone will die.  Therefore, there's no point in having laws.  Yeah, kinda a weird way of looking at it.

dycker1978

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #163 on: February 08, 2018, 01:46:23 PM »
Do we have to do this maths again?

15,586 gun deaths per year
x
85 years (your average age)
=
1,324,810 gun related deaths during your life time.

Yip you read that right, over a million fellow citizens will die due to gun related incidents, on US soil during your life time.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

Yea, but, like 300-600 million will die because of other things?  This is a weird way to look at it?  But you go, get down with your bad self.

Eventually everyone will die.  Therefore, there's no point in having laws.  Yeah, kinda a weird way of looking at it.

This is the what it always seems to come back to... more people die other ways, so why try?

Cause people are shooting 100's at a time  or killing kids in the schools.  we can do better, we should do better. 

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #164 on: February 08, 2018, 02:58:10 PM »
If left unaddressed the problem will solve itself. Gun deaths in the USA are increasing by 6% per year. If it continues at this rate, within 165 years 300,000,000 people will die annually from gun violence in America.
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Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #165 on: February 09, 2018, 08:27:00 AM »
Do we have to do this maths again?

15,586 gun deaths per year
x
85 years (your average age)
=
1,324,810 gun related deaths during your life time.

Yip you read that right, over a million fellow citizens will die due to gun related incidents, on US soil during your life time.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

Yea, but, like 300-600 million will die because of other things?  This is a weird way to look at it?  But you go, get down with your bad self.

Eventually everyone will die.  Therefore, there's no point in having laws.  Yeah, kinda a weird way of looking at it.

This is the what it always seems to come back to... more people die other ways, so why try?

Cause people are shooting 100's at a time  or killing kids in the schools.  we can do better, we should do better.

So because we are all going to die eventually, its okay to die violently? For children to die violently? To be denied a chance at a peaceful lifetime with our families and friends?

dycker1978

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #166 on: February 09, 2018, 11:30:39 AM »
Do we have to do this maths again?

15,586 gun deaths per year
x
85 years (your average age)
=
1,324,810 gun related deaths during your life time.

Yip you read that right, over a million fellow citizens will die due to gun related incidents, on US soil during your life time.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

Yea, but, like 300-600 million will die because of other things?  This is a weird way to look at it?  But you go, get down with your bad self.

Eventually everyone will die.  Therefore, there's no point in having laws.  Yeah, kinda a weird way of looking at it.

This is the what it always seems to come back to... more people die other ways, so why try?

Cause people are shooting 100's at a time  or killing kids in the schools.  we can do better, we should do better.

So because we are all going to die eventually, its okay to die violently? For children to die violently? To be denied a chance at a peaceful lifetime with our families and friends?

I may not have been as clear as you, but this is exactly my point. 

palerider1858

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #167 on: February 09, 2018, 12:00:09 PM »
there's also a huge negative because those who are less strong and physical no longer have a way to defend themselves.

This isn't really an individual's responsibility though.  It's the job of the police, public planners, and government in a country to provide a safe place for it's people to live.  Relying on guns as some kind of universal protection is silly in a lot of cases.  Guns are not too useful for a lot of vulnerable people  . . those with certain physical disabilities and diseases (Parkinson's, MS, GB syndrome, etc.), the elderly who have trouble with their joints/shaky hands/any form of dementia/Alzheimer's, anyone with mental problems, people with a previous criminal record, etc.  Nobody in a society should tolerate such a poorly run a state of affairs that it is necessary to arm yourself to be safe.
Your assumption is incorrect according to the Supreme Court.
 I have many friends in law enforcement. It's a very common and sometimes fatal misconception to assume law enforcement is there to protect you. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #168 on: February 09, 2018, 12:20:06 PM »
there's also a huge negative because those who are less strong and physical no longer have a way to defend themselves.

This isn't really an individual's responsibility though.  It's the job of the police, public planners, and government in a country to provide a safe place for it's people to live.  Relying on guns as some kind of universal protection is silly in a lot of cases.  Guns are not too useful for a lot of vulnerable people  . . those with certain physical disabilities and diseases (Parkinson's, MS, GB syndrome, etc.), the elderly who have trouble with their joints/shaky hands/any form of dementia/Alzheimer's, anyone with mental problems, people with a previous criminal record, etc.  Nobody in a society should tolerate such a poorly run a state of affairs that it is necessary to arm yourself to be safe.
Your assumption is incorrect according to the Supreme Court.
 I have many friends in law enforcement. It's a very common and sometimes fatal misconception to assume law enforcement is there to protect you. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

The Supreme Court massively failed the American people when making that decision.  Protection of citizens should be the primary purpose of any police force in a country.  There is no better purpose that they can be put to.

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #169 on: February 09, 2018, 01:17:36 PM »
there's also a huge negative because those who are less strong and physical no longer have a way to defend themselves.

This isn't really an individual's responsibility though.  It's the job of the police, public planners, and government in a country to provide a safe place for it's people to live.  Relying on guns as some kind of universal protection is silly in a lot of cases.  Guns are not too useful for a lot of vulnerable people  . . those with certain physical disabilities and diseases (Parkinson's, MS, GB syndrome, etc.), the elderly who have trouble with their joints/shaky hands/any form of dementia/Alzheimer's, anyone with mental problems, people with a previous criminal record, etc.  Nobody in a society should tolerate such a poorly run a state of affairs that it is necessary to arm yourself to be safe.

I'm guessing most victims of violent crime would prefer access to self defense rather than the platitude that they shouldn't have to defend themselves. I certainly don't think the fact that they shouldn't have to protect themselves makes it less immoral to deprive them of the ability to defend themselves. If anything, it makes it worse.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #170 on: February 09, 2018, 01:39:51 PM »
there's also a huge negative because those who are less strong and physical no longer have a way to defend themselves.

This isn't really an individual's responsibility though.  It's the job of the police, public planners, and government in a country to provide a safe place for it's people to live.  Relying on guns as some kind of universal protection is silly in a lot of cases.  Guns are not too useful for a lot of vulnerable people  . . those with certain physical disabilities and diseases (Parkinson's, MS, GB syndrome, etc.), the elderly who have trouble with their joints/shaky hands/any form of dementia/Alzheimer's, anyone with mental problems, people with a previous criminal record, etc.  Nobody in a society should tolerate such a poorly run a state of affairs that it is necessary to arm yourself to be safe.

I'm guessing most victims of violent crime would prefer access to self defense rather than the platitude that they shouldn't have to defend themselves. I certainly don't think the fact that they shouldn't have to protect themselves makes it less immoral to deprive them of the ability to defend themselves. If anything, it makes it worse.

I'm guessing that most victims of violent crimes would prefer not to be victims of violent crimes rather than to have to live the rest of their lives armed and terrified.  The best way to bring about that situation is not greater access to firearms for all, but for better policing and crime prevention strategies.

As was mentioned previously, there are a lot of people for whom guns cannot be used for self defense.  If you're relying on folks to arm themselves rather to correct the safety problem, what is your suggestion to these people?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:15:15 PM by GuitarStv »

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #171 on: February 09, 2018, 02:32:27 PM »
Sentry guns, personal drones with semi automatic firearms attached. Technology to the rescue again.
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Peter Parker

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #172 on: February 14, 2018, 01:12:09 PM »
I think the Title needs to be edited:  14 SCHOOL SHOOTINGS IN 32 DAYS

WHOOO HOOO!!! So much winning.  Let's keep doing nothing.  We are sooooo awesome at that.... Just think what we can achieve after 365 days!

Awesome!  ANOTHER SCHOOL SHOOTING--This time at Douglass High School in Parkland, Florida!
    * Let's KEEP DOING NOTHING--It makes America GREAT
        * Let's endlessly debate the nuances of the 2nd Amendment--Keep protecting those gun rights
        * Let's keep electing pro-gun politicians--That way I can keep my guns!
        * Let's keep donating to the NRA--so they can buy off politicians!
        * Let's make more weapons available for more people

    Let's not get angry for god's sake--after all guns don't kill people....God bless America!

    EDITED TO ADD:  MAKE SURE WE SEND "THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS" (BUT DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:16:53 PM by Peter Parker »

bacchi

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #173 on: February 14, 2018, 02:10:29 PM »
I think the Title needs to be edited:  14 SCHOOL SHOOTINGS IN 32 DAYS

WHOOO HOOO!!! So much winning.  Let's keep doing nothing.  We are sooooo awesome at that.... Just think what we can achieve after 365 days!

Awesome!  ANOTHER SCHOOL SHOOTING--This time at Douglass High School in Parkland, Florida!
    * Let's KEEP DOING NOTHING--It makes America GREAT
        * Let's endlessly debate the nuances of the 2nd Amendment--Keep protecting those gun rights
        * Let's keep electing pro-gun politicians--That way I can keep my guns!
        * Let's keep donating to the NRA--so they can buy off politicians!
        * Let's make more weapons available for more people

    Let's not get angry for god's sake--after all guns don't kill people....God bless America!

    EDITED TO ADD:  MAKE SURE WE SEND "THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS" (BUT DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE)

* Arm teachers and children so that they can protect themselves when a bad guy shows up. Self defense FTW!

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #174 on: February 14, 2018, 02:52:46 PM »
Tweeted two hours ago.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 02:54:57 PM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Wexler

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #175 on: February 14, 2018, 02:58:36 PM »
I think the Title needs to be edited:  14 SCHOOL SHOOTINGS IN 32 DAYS

WHOOO HOOO!!! So much winning.  Let's keep doing nothing.  We are sooooo awesome at that.... Just think what we can achieve after 365 days!

Awesome!  ANOTHER SCHOOL SHOOTING--This time at Douglass High School in Parkland, Florida!
    * Let's KEEP DOING NOTHING--It makes America GREAT
        * Let's endlessly debate the nuances of the 2nd Amendment--Keep protecting those gun rights
        * Let's keep electing pro-gun politicians--That way I can keep my guns!
        * Let's keep donating to the NRA--so they can buy off politicians!
        * Let's make more weapons available for more people

    Let's not get angry for god's sake--after all guns don't kill people....God bless America!

    EDITED TO ADD:  MAKE SURE WE SEND "THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS" (BUT DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE)

You forgot:

talk about addressing mental health concerns--simultaneously vote to cut healthcare


Do you think that gun storage laws would do any good?  The shooter is supposedly a student, so he likely got the gun from home.  If gun owners are responsible for the damage done by an unsecured gun, maybe they'd spend some resources locking them up and keeping them out of the hands of their kids.  I'm sure our resident 2nd amendment people have all kinds of reasons why storing their guns properly is a massive imposition on their freedom, and I can't wait to hear them.

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #176 on: February 14, 2018, 03:09:03 PM »
Just another day in America sadly. In the meantime nothing will be done and we'll just wait for the next one. But hey at least we are banning Muslims!

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2018, 06:08:00 PM »
Do you think that gun storage laws would do any good?  The shooter is supposedly a student, so he likely got the gun from home.  If gun owners are responsible for the damage done by an unsecured gun, maybe they'd spend some resources locking them up and keeping them out of the hands of their kids.  I'm sure our resident 2nd amendment people have all kinds of reasons why storing their guns properly is a massive imposition on their freedom, and I can't wait to hear them.

The usual argument is that if a group of ninjas assaulted your home you might be caught without a gun while trying to open your safe up.  Ease of access for kids who want to shoot up their school is a small price to pay for defense from a coordinated assault on your home.

px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #178 on: February 14, 2018, 07:14:33 PM »
If only it was illegal to bring a gun on school property, this wouldn't happen.

I wonder what mentally ill meds this murderer was on.

bacchi

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #179 on: February 14, 2018, 08:29:40 PM »
If only it was illegal to bring a gun on school property, this wouldn't happen.

Exactly. Only bad guys shoot people so we just need to arm the good guys and let them open carry.

Problem solved!

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #180 on: February 14, 2018, 08:33:17 PM »
Ho-hum, just another day. Thoughts and prayers and yadda yadda yadda. Nothing is ever going to change about mass shootings in the USA, so there's no point even discussing it anymore. America LIKES mass shootings. That's why we refuse to prevent them.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #181 on: February 14, 2018, 08:35:06 PM »
If only it was illegal to bring a gun on school property, this wouldn't happen.

I wonder what mentally ill meds this murderer was on.

Looks like he was high on guns and MAGA.

https://www.truthexam.com/2018/02/breaking-the-shooter-in-the-florida-shooting-has-been-identified-and-its-not-good/
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

bacchi

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #182 on: February 14, 2018, 08:35:20 PM »
Ho-hum, just another day. Thoughts and prayers and yadda yadda yadda. Nothing is ever going to change about mass shootings in the USA, so there's no point even discussing it anymore. America LIKES mass shootings. That's why we refuse to prevent them.

Agreed.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #183 on: February 14, 2018, 08:59:04 PM »
its actually not a mental health problem. People suffering mental illness are far more likely to be victims of violence than to commit violence. Other western countries have similar rates of mental health disorders and do not have the same level of gun violence. Its a matter of access to lethal means to commit violence on a large scale.  lets not start stigmatising people with mental health problems.
I don't think that access to means is the whole story. Basically the US has 4 homicides per 100,000 people annually, and most of the Western world has under 1 per 100,000. But if you take all the firearms homicides out, it's still 1.5 or so - which is to say, even without firearms (let's assume 0 of the firearms homicides would become homicides by other means), the US has about 50% more homicides than other Western countries.

The US also has twice as many lethal car accidents as the rest of the Western world.

Quite simply, the US is the most violent and aggressive culture in the Western world. Yes, access to firearms matters, and yes, mental healthcare matters. But culture matters, too.
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jrhampt

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #184 on: February 15, 2018, 05:47:46 AM »
its actually not a mental health problem. People suffering mental illness are far more likely to be victims of violence than to commit violence. Other western countries have similar rates of mental health disorders and do not have the same level of gun violence. Its a matter of access to lethal means to commit violence on a large scale.  lets not start stigmatising people with mental health problems.
I don't think that access to means is the whole story. Basically the US has 4 homicides per 100,000 people annually, and most of the Western world has under 1 per 100,000. But if you take all the firearms homicides out, it's still 1.5 or so - which is to say, even without firearms (let's assume 0 of the firearms homicides would become homicides by other means), the US has about 50% more homicides than other Western countries.

The US also has twice as many lethal car accidents as the rest of the Western world.

Quite simply, the US is the most violent and aggressive culture in the Western world. Yes, access to firearms matters, and yes, mental healthcare matters. But culture matters, too.

To paraphrase a verse in the NT: Where your treasure is, there will your heart be, also.  We as a society value violence.  We spend a lot of money on guns and on our military. 

ooeei

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #185 on: February 15, 2018, 07:02:08 AM »
To paraphrase a verse in the NT: Where your treasure is, there will your heart be, also.  We as a society value violence.  We spend a lot of money on guns and on our military.

We also have drastic income inequality, a horrible healthcare system, for profit prisons, a war on drugs that essentially funnels money to criminals (and the prisons mentioned above), a reality-show caliber media, and a giant population with virtually unlimited demographics. Let's not pretend guns are the only difference between the US and other countries.

We have cities bigger than some of the European countries we're so often compared to, and have roughly 10x the population of Canada, the UK, or Australia.  We're also nextdoor neighbors to a country with a 17/100k homicide rate, roughly 4x our own.

Last year the UK had a bombing which killed 23 people and injured 400. If you scale that up by population that is the equivalent to roughly 200 people in the US being killed with over 3000 injured. You could have a bombing/vehicle terrorist attack that kills nearly 20 people and injures 350 once a month in the US, and it would be the equivalent to the one event in Britain as far as population goes, but would make the US feel much more dangerous just because of our enormous sample size. That is the kind of misleading that I'm talking about when we use absolute numbers instead of rates or proportions. While the US is roughly 5x more violent than Australia or a similar country, you can expect to see 50x as many news stories and grandiose events due to our population difference, exaggerating the problem by a factor of 10. Even if the US were exactly as peaceful as Australia, you would still expect to see roughly 10x as many reports of crime and murder occurring in the US as you did in Australia, which would make the US feel much more dangerous.

Additionally, as I've pointed out numerous times before, the ratio between Australia and the US's murder rate has remained roughly consistent since the 90's, when Australia's harsher gun laws were enacted. Yes, Australia's rate decreased, but so did the US at roughly the same rate. There's something other than gun laws that accounts for the difference between us, otherwise you would've expected Australia to drastically widen the gap in that time.

As for the "well police should be doing their job better," no shit. That doesn't really make me feel any safer though. It's like telling a girl after she's been raped she shouldn't carry anything for defense because men shouldn't do that and police should help her. Yeah that's true, but we live in the real world, and what "should" happen doesn't mean a whole lot when shit goes down. Nobody cares more about your safety than you, similar to your money or your happiness.

edit: And I'm not saying the US doesn't have a problem with violence, I'm trying to put into perspective the constant media bombardment that uses absolute numbers and exaggerates the issues.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 07:09:50 AM by ooeei »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #186 on: February 15, 2018, 07:44:15 AM »
Last year the UK had a bombing which killed 23 people and injured 400. If you scale that up by population that is the equivalent to roughly 200 people in the US being killed with over 3000 injured. You could have a bombing/vehicle terrorist attack that kills nearly 20 people and injures 350 once a month in the US, and it would be the equivalent to the one event in Britain as far as population goes, but would make the US feel much more dangerous just because of our enormous sample size. That is the kind of misleading that I'm talking about when we use absolute numbers instead of rates or proportions. While the US is roughly 5x more violent than Australia or a similar country, you can expect to see 50x as many news stories and grandiose events due to our population difference, exaggerating the problem by a factor of 10. Even if the US were exactly as peaceful as Australia, you would still expect to see roughly 10x as many reports of crime and murder occurring in the US as you did in Australia, which would make the US feel much more dangerous.

Firstly, I want to be very clear that I don't disagree with what you're saying. We have a violence problem. We have a media problem. (Problems?)

I do, however, have a slight qualm with your UK bombing example. Bombs don't scale the way population does. You can only fit so many bodies into the effective radius of a given device, the size of the country doesn't matter much, only local density. Short of attacking a stadium or large urban building--which are substantially similar in most developed nations regardless of geography or population--you just aren't going to see 200/3000 range numbers in a bomb attack.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #187 on: February 15, 2018, 08:11:50 AM »
As for the "well police should be doing their job better," no shit. That doesn't really make me feel any safer though.

Given that the supreme court has rules that police officers that don't need to protect anyone as part of their job, it shouldn't make you feel any better.  That decision is a giant roadblock for anyone who wants to live in a safer country.  You can thank the appointment of conservative judges for it.


It's like telling a girl after she's been raped she shouldn't carry anything for defense because men shouldn't do that and police should help her. Yeah that's true, but we live in the real world, and what "should" happen doesn't mean a whole lot when shit goes down. Nobody cares more about your safety than you, similar to your money or your happiness.

This is not an argument (or even like an argument) put forth in this thread, but keep raging against that straw man.  He won't hit back.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #188 on: February 15, 2018, 08:31:42 AM »
8 proposals with >60% public support.



Congress won't enact a single one.
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Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #189 on: February 15, 2018, 09:43:32 AM »
8 proposals with >60% public support.



Congress won't enact a single one.

Can you cite the source of this data, DaS?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #190 on: February 15, 2018, 10:50:47 AM »
there's also a huge negative because those who are less strong and physical no longer have a way to defend themselves.

This isn't really an individual's responsibility though.  It's the job of the police, public planners, and government in a country to provide a safe place for it's people to live.  Relying on guns as some kind of universal protection is silly in a lot of cases.  Guns are not too useful for a lot of vulnerable people  . . those with certain physical disabilities and diseases (Parkinson's, MS, GB syndrome, etc.), the elderly who have trouble with their joints/shaky hands/any form of dementia/Alzheimer's, anyone with mental problems, people with a previous criminal record, etc.  Nobody in a society should tolerate such a poorly run a state of affairs that it is necessary to arm yourself to be safe.

I'm guessing most victims of violent crime would prefer access to self defense rather than the platitude that they shouldn't have to defend themselves. I certainly don't think the fact that they shouldn't have to protect themselves makes it less immoral to deprive them of the ability to defend themselves. If anything, it makes it worse.

I'm guessing that most victims of violent crimes would prefer not to be victims of violent crimes rather than to have to live the rest of their lives armed and terrified.  The best way to bring about that situation is not greater access to firearms for all, but for better policing and crime prevention strategies.
  And you won't them defenseless while we also don't do anything particularly different?  That's pretty callous. 

As was mentioned previously, there are a lot of people for whom guns cannot be used for self defense.  If you're relying on folks to arm themselves rather to correct the safety problem, what is your suggestion to these people?

I think you are projecting your callousness on them.  You think those vulnerable people would really feel better if they made other people more vulnerable?  I mean I guess that would make them stick out as potential victims a little less, but I doubt that's really what they're looking for. 


GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #191 on: February 15, 2018, 10:58:55 AM »
there's also a huge negative because those who are less strong and physical no longer have a way to defend themselves.

This isn't really an individual's responsibility though.  It's the job of the police, public planners, and government in a country to provide a safe place for it's people to live.  Relying on guns as some kind of universal protection is silly in a lot of cases.  Guns are not too useful for a lot of vulnerable people  . . those with certain physical disabilities and diseases (Parkinson's, MS, GB syndrome, etc.), the elderly who have trouble with their joints/shaky hands/any form of dementia/Alzheimer's, anyone with mental problems, people with a previous criminal record, etc.  Nobody in a society should tolerate such a poorly run a state of affairs that it is necessary to arm yourself to be safe.

I'm guessing most victims of violent crime would prefer access to self defense rather than the platitude that they shouldn't have to defend themselves. I certainly don't think the fact that they shouldn't have to protect themselves makes it less immoral to deprive them of the ability to defend themselves. If anything, it makes it worse.

I'm guessing that most victims of violent crimes would prefer not to be victims of violent crimes rather than to have to live the rest of their lives armed and terrified.  The best way to bring about that situation is not greater access to firearms for all, but for better policing and crime prevention strategies.
  And you won't them defenseless while we also don't do anything particularly different?  That's pretty callous. 

As was mentioned previously, there are a lot of people for whom guns cannot be used for self defense.  If you're relying on folks to arm themselves rather to correct the safety problem, what is your suggestion to these people?

I think you are projecting your callousness on them.  You think those vulnerable people would really feel better if they made other people more vulnerable?  I mean I guess that would make them stick out as potential victims a little less, but I doubt that's really what they're looking for.

I think you have misread my posts.  I don't advocate making anyone more vulnerable.  Quite the opposite.

Rather than 'The police suck, we should all arm ourselves to the teeth to go get some milk' it's 'The police suck, we should change things for the better.'  In the former (assuming you believe that a more heavily armed society is going to be safer - which is dubious to begin with) you're admitting failure for a whole class of people (the ones who can't, won't, or are unable to own firearms).  In the latter you're working on a nation wide problem - an environment where the need to own a gun out of fear is radically reduced is better for everyone.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #192 on: February 15, 2018, 11:11:48 AM »
8 proposals with >60% public support.

Congress won't enact a single one.

Can you cite the source of this data, DaS?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/05/upshot/how-to-reduce-mass-shooting-deaths-experts-say-these-gun-laws-could-help.html

There are more than 8 with that amount of support (in fact, 20 measures polled received 59% or more public support) but those 8 were deemed to be likely the most effective by experts.
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Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #193 on: February 15, 2018, 11:23:03 AM »
8 proposals with >60% public support.

Congress won't enact a single one.

Can you cite the source of this data, DaS?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/05/upshot/how-to-reduce-mass-shooting-deaths-experts-say-these-gun-laws-could-help.html

There are more than 8 with that amount of support (in fact, 20 measures polled received 59% or more public support) but those 8 were deemed to be likely the most effective by experts.

Thank you!
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #194 on: February 15, 2018, 11:36:58 AM »
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

zoltani

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #195 on: February 15, 2018, 11:52:59 AM »
If only it was illegal to bring a gun on school property, this wouldn't happen.

I wonder what mentally ill meds this murderer was on.

Looks like he was high on guns and MAGA.

https://www.truthexam.com/2018/02/breaking-the-shooter-in-the-florida-shooting-has-been-identified-and-its-not-good/

What a sensational echo chamber that site is, Jesus. They even quote fucking 4chan in another article, the height of journalistic integrity!
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Yvon Chouinard

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #196 on: February 15, 2018, 01:31:47 PM »
If only it was illegal to bring a gun on school property, this wouldn't happen.

I wonder what mentally ill meds this murderer was on.

Looks like he was high on guns and MAGA.

https://www.truthexam.com/2018/02/breaking-the-shooter-in-the-florida-shooting-has-been-identified-and-its-not-good/

What a sensational echo chamber that site is, Jesus. They even quote fucking 4chan in another article, the height of journalistic integrity!

Vox for FiveThirtyEight (can't remember which) did cite the leader of a white supremacist group ("Republic of Florida" IIRC?) as saying he was a member.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

zoltani

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #197 on: February 15, 2018, 01:54:28 PM »
If only it was illegal to bring a gun on school property, this wouldn't happen.

I wonder what mentally ill meds this murderer was on.

Looks like he was high on guns and MAGA.

https://www.truthexam.com/2018/02/breaking-the-shooter-in-the-florida-shooting-has-been-identified-and-its-not-good/

What a sensational echo chamber that site is, Jesus. They even quote fucking 4chan in another article, the height of journalistic integrity!

Vox for FiveThirtyEight (can't remember which) did cite the leader of a white supremacist group ("Republic of Florida" IIRC?) as saying he was a member.

He also said he had "trouble with a girl" and he believed the timing of the attack, carried out on Valentine's Day, wasn't a coincidence.

For a white supremacist he sure did shoot a lot of white people.
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #198 on: February 15, 2018, 02:00:44 PM »
Nice 'no true scotsman' fallacy there.

zoltani

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #199 on: February 15, 2018, 02:04:28 PM »
Nice 'no true scotsman' fallacy there.

Thanks buddy!
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

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