Other > Off Topic
11 School Shootings in 26 Days
MasterStache:
--- Quote from: GuitarStv on April 23, 2018, 01:08:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: caracarn on April 23, 2018, 12:48:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: tyort1 on April 23, 2018, 11:51:01 AM ---
--- Quote from: shenlong55 on April 23, 2018, 11:39:57 AM ---
--- Quote from: ministashy on April 23, 2018, 11:33:07 AM ---That's where I'm at these days in regards to guns. If I own a gun, then I should be F#@$!! responsible for it AT ALL TIMES. If it's not on my person, it should be locked up. If it's not, and someone else gets their hands on it and commits a crime with it, then I should be held equally responsible by the law for that crime. And if I'm not comfortable with that responsibility, then I shouldn't own a gun.
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+1
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+2
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Sounds pretty simple. Looking forward to all the reasons responsible gun owners rail against this because it makes it to hard to access when they need it.
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http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-safe-gun-storage-20180223-story.html
- More than half of gun owners in the US keep a firearm without any locks or deterrent to prevent use by an unauthorized person, or to prevent theft.
- 45% of gun owners with kids under the age of 18 leave unsecured firearms lying around the home.
- Only 35% of gun owning parents of children with mental health conditions keep weapons unloaded and locked away.
You're asking for responsibility for their actions from a large group of people who have proven by their actions that they're not willing to accept any.
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Perhaps good reason why the phrase "law abiding gun owner" is often used as opposed to "responsible gun owner." I brought up before the sobering statistics related to the number of firearms obtained from "law abiding gun owners" that were used in gun related crimes. The irony of the whole situation is staggering.
Chris22:
--- Quote from: ministashy on April 23, 2018, 11:33:07 AM ---That's where I'm at these days in regards to guns. If I own a gun, then I should be F#@$!! responsible for it AT ALL TIMES. If it's not on my person, it should be locked up. If it's not, and someone else gets their hands on it and commits a crime with it, then I should be held equally responsible by the law for that crime. And if I'm not comfortable with that responsibility, then I shouldn't own a gun.
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At the risk of Clintoning this, what does "locked up" mean? Because my weapons are always locked up in my house. For anyone to take my weapons they have to forceably break into my house, and if they're willing to break into my brick house with metal security doors, they're not going to be stopped by any reasonable gun storage inside that house (a real safe is going to cost you probably $1500 or more, cheaper than that is some BS locking cabinet that's easily defeated by a person who can get past a deadbolted exterior door).
You can't act like every situation is the same. A child finding a loaded Glock in a bedside table is different than a father of an adult mentally disturbed child keeping guns accessible to that person, is different than some punk breaking into my house and stealing my guns and committing a crime with them. You can't punish them all equally. In some cases (the last one) I don't see how you can punish it at all. "Well sir, I understand the thief kicked in your back door and ransacked your house, but he stole the shotgun in your closet and killed someone with it. If only you had used a $10 cable trigger lock on it that would have been defeated in 3 seconds with the bolt cutters in your garage, we wouldn't be arresting you for 1st degree murder right now!"
And this is before we get into the legality of trying to charge someone who had a gun taken from them with something like premeditated murder. I am 100% in favor of holding gun owners responsible for negligence when they fail to secure their weapons and something bad happens as a result, but a victim of a crime (break in) is not negligent, and negligence can't be punished the same way that premeditated crimes are.
But I guess if we want to ignore all nuance and reality we can get cute and propose ambiguous BS like "just charge gun owners with the crime!" and pretend that anyone who understands all of that is just irresponsible and wrong.
Just Joe:
Maybe a $1500+ dollar gun safe bolted to the house ought to be a requirement of owning guns then.
Many of us are in states where we are required insure our cars before we can drive them on public streets...
Just a cost of doing business.
I hope the courts throw the book at the father. The kid was definitely off his rocker with beliefs that Taylor Swift was stalking HIM and hacking his phone. Father gives guns to a guy like this???
Chris22:
--- Quote from: Just Joe on April 24, 2018, 10:46:11 AM ---Maybe a $1500+ dollar gun safe bolted to the house ought to be a requirement of owning guns then.
Many of us are in states where we are required insure our cars before we can drive them on public streets...
Just a cost of doing business.
I hope the courts throw the book at the father. The kid was definitely off his rocker with beliefs that Taylor Swift was stalking HIM and hacking his phone. Father gives guns to a guy like this???
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If you think a $1500 safe is reasonable I look forward to you support of a $10 ID required for voting. You know, since we can charge for exercising rights now.
GuitarStv:
--- Quote from: Chris22 on April 24, 2018, 10:26:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: ministashy on April 23, 2018, 11:33:07 AM ---That's where I'm at these days in regards to guns. If I own a gun, then I should be F#@$!! responsible for it AT ALL TIMES. If it's not on my person, it should be locked up. If it's not, and someone else gets their hands on it and commits a crime with it, then I should be held equally responsible by the law for that crime. And if I'm not comfortable with that responsibility, then I shouldn't own a gun.
--- End quote ---
At the risk of Clintoning this, what does "locked up" mean? Because my weapons are always locked up in my house. For anyone to take my weapons they have to forceably break into my house, and if they're willing to break into my brick house with metal security doors, they're not going to be stopped by any reasonable gun storage inside that house (a real safe is going to cost you probably $1500 or more, cheaper than that is some BS locking cabinet that's easily defeated by a person who can get past a deadbolted exterior door).
You can't act like every situation is the same. A child finding a loaded Glock in a bedside table is different than a father of an adult mentally disturbed child keeping guns accessible to that person, is different than some punk breaking into my house and stealing my guns and committing a crime with them. You can't punish them all equally. In some cases (the last one) I don't see how you can punish it at all. "Well sir, I understand the thief kicked in your back door and ransacked your house, but he stole the shotgun in your closet and killed someone with it. If only you had used a $10 cable trigger lock on it that would have been defeated in 3 seconds with the bolt cutters in your garage, we wouldn't be arresting you for 1st degree murder right now!"
And this is before we get into the legality of trying to charge someone who had a gun taken from them with something like premeditated murder. I am 100% in favor of holding gun owners responsible for negligence when they fail to secure their weapons and something bad happens as a result, but a victim of a crime (break in) is not negligent, and negligence can't be punished the same way that premeditated crimes are.
But I guess if we want to ignore all nuance and reality we can get cute and propose ambiguous BS like "just charge gun owners with the crime!" and pretend that anyone who understands all of that is just irresponsible and wrong.
--- End quote ---
If you keep your guns locked up in a secure location and unloaded in your home then we have no problem. You're a responsible gun owner.
If you keep a loaded gun that's not locked up in your home and your home also contains a young kid (as is the case with half of gun owners with children), then if a fully forseeable "accident" happens you should go to jail for manslaughter. Your negligence caused the death or injury. As a felon, you should then be prevented from ever owning a gun again . . . since you've proven that you are not responsible enough to do so.
If you have a mentally ill child and keep unsecured guns in your home, you should be held responsible for the deaths and injury that your child causes with your gun. It is your responsibility to care for the child and prevent him from getting the gun.
The issue of theft is less clear cut. Guns in the home should be locked up, separate from ammunition. I'm picturing a sturdy lock on a room, a gun safe, or a strong locked cabinet. It doesn't need to be thousands of dollars, you could probably cobble one together for less than a hundred dollars.
If you leave your gun out on the coffee table and someone walks in your unlocked back door and steals it . . . you were negligent. You should pay a fine for this negligence. If the negligence happens several times, then maybe greater punishment could be levied. If that gun is then used in a crime, it's obviously not fair to charge you with the crime, but you shouldn't just get to wash your hands of all responsibility.
If you have a gun locked away in a gun cabinet, and a thief breaks into your locked home, breaks into your gun cabinet and makes off with the weapon . . . obviously you did what you could to prevent the theft and should not be held responsible for anything.
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