Author Topic: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "  (Read 58566 times)

Alternatepriorities

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #450 on: August 06, 2021, 11:40:19 AM »
Perhaps an unpopular question here.

How many years of YOUR life are YOU will to give to mitigating climate change? In general we Mustachians are already consuming less to quit working sooner. So how many extra years are we willing to work to invest 100% of it in green tech that has a high chance of failure but might save the climate? Or for those who are well paid in other fields, how many more years are we willing to work at a lower paying job at a clean energy company trying to solve some of these problems?

This isn’t rhetorical… I reached FI this year and it’s something I think about a lot. Should I work another year doing something highly profitable that don’t enjoy and then use the money to pay someone else doing work one of the technologies that might change something? Should I find new work in a green tech field even though I don’t need the money and sitting at the computer is bad for me? Should I say “F-it” the world is screwed and enjoy my free time and money while I can?

nereo

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #451 on: August 06, 2021, 12:47:22 PM »
Perhaps an unpopular question here.

How many years of YOUR life are YOU will to give to mitigating climate change? In general we Mustachians are already consuming less to quit working sooner. So how many extra years are we willing to work to invest 100% of it in green tech that has a high chance of failure but might save the climate? Or for those who are well paid in other fields, how many more years are we willing to work at a lower paying job at a clean energy company trying to solve some of these problems?

This isn’t rhetorical… I reached FI this year and it’s something I think about a lot. Should I work another year doing something highly profitable that don’t enjoy and then use the money to pay someone else doing work one of the technologies that might change something? Should I find new work in a green tech field even though I don’t need the money and sitting at the computer is bad for me? Should I say “F-it” the world is screwed and enjoy my free time and money while I can?

Well I can give answering this a shot...

For starters we've both deliberately taken careers in fields that focus on climate change solutions, so there's that. As we are more SWAMI than FIRE types in all likelihood we'll spend a few decades in these fields. I could probably make $5-10k+ given my background working for a few other employers in the area, but I love my job and our entire business is mission driven and centered on improving the planet. As long as it continues to be an awesome place to work I'll stay, regardless of what other recruiters may offer me - we have more than enough and I'm not going to turn away job satisfaction for more money (which i don't really need).

Beyond that, in our most recent house we spent about $28k and a few hundred hours converting a leaky 120yo home in a very cold climate into as close to net-energy zero as we could (and we got fairly close).  That included a mixture of PVs, heat-pumps, insulation and extensive air sealing. Ironically I'm not even sure we could say this cost us anything in the end because we turned a slight profit 18 months later when covid forced us to relocate. It's impossible to know how much were the improvements and how much was the hot market, but looking at the comps and the number of offers we got ours was certainly more desirable than "similar properties" (based on sqft and bed/bath) in our area. 

We plan on basically repeating the energy-efficiency improvements in our new home, though this time we're confident we can go net-zero due to a bunch of factors, and probably for about $20k and another few hundred hours of my time. Ultimately though we'll get a few thousand $ back each year, so beyond opportunity cost and labor cost it's economically a good decision for us as well.

More broadly most of our decisions to mitigate climate change are decisions NOT to buy or do something, and occasionally to pay a bit more for something more sustainable. We've cut way back on travel and drive PHEVs where we can run off battery 90% of the time. We've reduced the amount of meat from our diets substantially, and buy meat primarily from an organic farm nearby. We grow a ton of our own veggies and tend to skip tropical fruits at the store.  We've never eaten much processed or fast-food. By most accounts our grocery bill is way below the national average, so ... really hard to put a dollar amount on how much extra we DO spend, as I know we buy foods that cost way more because we care who made it and are willing to give them our business. 

interestingly we don't feel like we are sacrificing anything. While we could afford to take 2-week vacations to exotic resorts and to eat out more and drive fancy pickup trucks, that's not us. Occasionally we'll weigh whether flying to San Diego to participate in some event is worth it to us, but it's a holistic discussion which includes the carbon cost, financial cost, time cost, and benefit(s) of going. It's not a sacrifice to do something we believe in.

Perhaps what's most striking to me is - provided you have some disposable income - life can actually be better when you make environmentally sustainable choices. It starts with buying less crap and being more mindful of your actions. That quickly translates to improved health, less clutter, and ultimately a fatter bank account. Our house is absolutely more comfortable and quiet to be in after the extensive weather-sealing, and it's far less expensive to heat and cool. For us it's meant closer ties in our community and a better knowledge of the trails, lakes and parks in our region at the 'expense' of not knowing much about where the hottest vacation destinations might be or the on-trend restaurants.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 01:31:05 PM by nereo »

pecunia

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #452 on: August 06, 2021, 01:06:31 PM »
For us semi- noobs:

SWAMI - Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual

I almost got fooled with the:

Still working and Monetarily Independent

You know - almost all of the stuff nereo noted justifies itself monetarily.  You don't even have to be thinking about the planet and higher power stuff.

Sailor Sam

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #453 on: August 06, 2021, 02:40:52 PM »
Perhaps an unpopular question here.

How many years of YOUR life are YOU will to give to mitigating climate change? In general we Mustachians are already consuming less to quit working sooner. So how many extra years are we willing to work to invest 100% of it in green tech that has a high chance of failure but might save the climate? Or for those who are well paid in other fields, how many more years are we willing to work at a lower paying job at a clean energy company trying to solve some of these problems?

This isn’t rhetorical… I reached FI this year and it’s something I think about a lot. Should I work another year doing something highly profitable that don’t enjoy and then use the money to pay someone else doing work one of the technologies that might change something? Should I find new work in a green tech field even though I don’t need the money and sitting at the computer is bad for me? Should I say “F-it” the world is screwed and enjoy my free time and money while I can?

This is always an interesting personal question.

Personally, I’ve donated somewhere between $70,000 and $100,000 of my income over the past 16 years (didn’t track the first 6 years). I can’t claim that the money all went to helping understand and mitigate climate change, but much of it did go to ensuring the cohort currently coming of age had enough safety and nutrition that their growing brains needed to get smart, and be the innovators that developed the next wave of green tech.

Choosing to be part of this human community definitely increased how long it took me to reach FI, but I still got to my number just fine.


I’ve also been thinking of this thread, in general. One of my ‘watershed’ moments was seeing the Great Pacific Garbage Patch with my own eyes. It strikes the heart in the way that even landfills seem to surpass. Human’s have always had middens, so maybe trash heaps are easier to overlook. There’s nothing historically commensurate about how we’ve choked the oceans.

If I could get every one out into the middle of the gyre, without, ya know, spending untold tones of carbon, I’d make everyone I know go look at the miles and miles of floating trash themselves. I’ve never been tempted by flimsy plastic shit since…

brandon1827

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #454 on: August 06, 2021, 02:53:23 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/06/world/climate-gulf-stream-collapse-warning-study-intl/index.html

Think I remember reading something of this upthread...but it's interesting and somewhat terrifying. My wife and I love 'Day After Tomorrow' but I never dreamed the premise of the cause for the abrupt climate shift in that movie was actually playing out in real life.

pecunia

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #455 on: August 06, 2021, 03:10:34 PM »
Perhaps an unpopular question here.

How many years of YOUR life are YOU will to give to mitigating climate change? In general we Mustachians are already consuming less to quit working sooner. So how many extra years are we willing to work to invest 100% of it in green tech that has a high chance of failure but might save the climate? Or for those who are well paid in other fields, how many more years are we willing to work at a lower paying job at a clean energy company trying to solve some of these problems?

This isn’t rhetorical… I reached FI this year and it’s something I think about a lot. Should I work another year doing something highly profitable that don’t enjoy and then use the money to pay someone else doing work one of the technologies that might change something? Should I find new work in a green tech field even though I don’t need the money and sitting at the computer is bad for me? Should I say “F-it” the world is screwed and enjoy my free time and money while I can?

This is always an interesting personal question.

Personally, I’ve donated somewhere between $70,000 and $100,000 of my income over the past 16 years (didn’t track the first 6 years). I can’t claim that the money all went to helping understand and mitigate climate change, but much of it did go to ensuring the cohort currently coming of age had enough safety and nutrition that their growing brains needed to get smart, and be the innovators that developed the next wave of green tech.

Choosing to be part of this human community definitely increased how long it took me to reach FI, but I still got to my number just fine.


I’ve also been thinking of this thread, in general. One of my ‘watershed’ moments was seeing the Great Pacific Garbage Patch with my own eyes. It strikes the heart in the way that even landfills seem to surpass. Human’s have always had middens, so maybe trash heaps are easier to overlook. There’s nothing historically commensurate about how we’ve choked the oceans.

If I could get every one out into the middle of the gyre, without, ya know, spending untold tones of carbon, I’d make everyone I know go look at the miles and miles of floating trash themselves. I’ve never been tempted by flimsy plastic shit since…

Great Pacific Garbage Patch From Space

https://www.google.com/search?q=great+pacific+garbage+patch+from+space&sxsrf=ALeKk03tzdEYmxW1vL81OoQ5uAW2RQZI7A%3A1628284010348&source=hp&ei=aqQNYYjSEqrW0PEP4-yBiA4&iflsig=AINFCbYAAAAAYQ2yemMmMiWPN8U5jYI-O6Tx2ry_wgXs&oq=Great+Pacific+Garbage+Patch&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYAjIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6BAgjECc6BAgAEEM6CggAELEDEIMBEEM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARCjAjoICAAQgAQQsQM6BQguEJECOgsILhDHARCvARCRAjoFCC4QgAQ6BQgAEJECOggILhCABBCxAzoICC4QsQMQkQI6DQguELEDEMcBEKMCEEM6DgguELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOgcILhCxAxBDOgsILhCABBCxAxCTAjoLCC4QgAQQxwEQrwE6DgguEIAEEMcBEK8BEJMCOgcILhCABBAKULwRWP9YYLh-aABwAHgAgAGEAogBiBiSAQcxMS4xNC4ymAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

Just Joe

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #456 on: August 06, 2021, 04:14:49 PM »
Managing the plastic waste would be a big step in the right direction. Perhaps go backwards to older reusable packaging choices?

GuitarStv

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #457 on: August 06, 2021, 04:37:06 PM »
I was watching this relevant documentary the other day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE&ab_channel=MichaelMoore

It seemed to confirm many of the things I've had unease and suspicions about in the 'green' energy field over the past while.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #458 on: August 06, 2021, 05:08:47 PM »
Perhaps an unpopular question here.

How many years of YOUR life are YOU will to give to mitigating climate change? In general we Mustachians are already consuming less to quit working sooner. So how many extra years are we willing to work to invest 100% of it in green tech that has a high chance of failure but might save the climate? Or for those who are well paid in other fields, how many more years are we willing to work at a lower paying job at a clean energy company trying to solve some of these problems?

This isn’t rhetorical… I reached FI this year and it’s something I think about a lot. Should I work another year doing something highly profitable that don’t enjoy and then use the money to pay someone else doing work one of the technologies that might change something? Should I find new work in a green tech field even though I don’t need the money and sitting at the computer is bad for me? Should I say “F-it” the world is screwed and enjoy my free time and money while I can?

Well I can give answering this a shot...

For starters we've both deliberately taken careers in fields that focus on climate change solutions, so there's that. As we are more SWAMI than FIRE types in all likelihood we'll spend a few decades in these fields. I could probably make $5-10k+ given my background working for a few other employers in the area, but I love my job and our entire business is mission driven and centered on improving the planet. As long as it continues to be an awesome place to work I'll stay, regardless of what other recruiters may offer me - we have more than enough and I'm not going to turn away job satisfaction for more money (which i don't really need).

Beyond that, in our most recent house we spent about $28k and a few hundred hours converting a leaky 120yo home in a very cold climate into as close to net-energy zero as we could (and we got fairly close).  That included a mixture of PVs, heat-pumps, insulation and extensive air sealing. Ironically I'm not even sure we could say this cost us anything in the end because we turned a slight profit 18 months later when covid forced us to relocate. It's impossible to know how much were the improvements and how much was the hot market, but looking at the comps and the number of offers we got ours was certainly more desirable than "similar properties" (based on sqft and bed/bath) in our area. 

We plan on basically repeating the energy-efficiency improvements in our new home, though this time we're confident we can go net-zero due to a bunch of factors, and probably for about $20k and another few hundred hours of my time. Ultimately though we'll get a few thousand $ back each year, so beyond opportunity cost and labor cost it's economically a good decision for us as well.

More broadly most of our decisions to mitigate climate change are decisions NOT to buy or do something, and occasionally to pay a bit more for something more sustainable. We've cut way back on travel and drive PHEVs where we can run off battery 90% of the time. We've reduced the amount of meat from our diets substantially, and buy meat primarily from an organic farm nearby. We grow a ton of our own veggies and tend to skip tropical fruits at the store.  We've never eaten much processed or fast-food. By most accounts our grocery bill is way below the national average, so ... really hard to put a dollar amount on how much extra we DO spend, as I know we buy foods that cost way more because we care who made it and are willing to give them our business. 

interestingly we don't feel like we are sacrificing anything. While we could afford to take 2-week vacations to exotic resorts and to eat out more and drive fancy pickup trucks, that's not us. Occasionally we'll weigh whether flying to San Diego to participate in some event is worth it to us, but it's a holistic discussion which includes the carbon cost, financial cost, time cost, and benefit(s) of going. It's not a sacrifice to do something we believe in.

Perhaps what's most striking to me is - provided you have some disposable income - life can actually be better when you make environmentally sustainable choices. It starts with buying less crap and being more mindful of your actions. That quickly translates to improved health, less clutter, and ultimately a fatter bank account. Our house is absolutely more comfortable and quiet to be in after the extensive weather-sealing, and it's far less expensive to heat and cool. For us it's meant closer ties in our community and a better knowledge of the trails, lakes and parks in our region at the 'expense' of not knowing much about where the hottest vacation destinations might be or the on-trend restaurants.

Thanks for this Nereo. I've read and appreciated a number of your posts over the years. I didn't realize you worked in a climate related field though. Doing work you enjoy probably makes the RE part of FIRE much less critical, but could you make an estimate on how many years the reduced salary delays the option? Would you still be willing to do that if you weren't enjoying the work?

I fully agree with improving the efficiency of our own homes especially as a DIY project as I mostly enjoy doing it. I haven't yet tried to take anything to net zero yet, but I cut the energy use of my last house by more than 50%. Unfortunately that didn't seem to add value when I went to sell it. Multiple relators just kind of shrugged when I mentioned the R60 insulation or the 93% efficient boiler... It baffles me a bit that it isn't a bigger deal to buyers in Alaska. To be honest the whole obsession with square footages drives me a little nuts. The energy efficiency rating of a building should be per occupant or at least per useful area rather than just "per square foot". One of the things I thought about doing next is building a home as near to net zero as I can with as many local resources as I can. I suppose if it went well I could sell it and build another if I could find the right buyers...

In general I don't figure there are many people reading this tread consuming a lot. Using dollars as vague proxy I've consumed less than half of what I've produced so far in life, but there is only so much that consumption can be reduced. The things I most enjoy doing might be low impact, but they are not zero and they are definitely not net positive. Take hiking the PCT for example. It's pretty low impact, something I've wanted to do for years, and now I have time time, but it will add nothing to the world for anyone but DW and I.

In theory an individual could produce zero carbon aside from their own breathing. On the other hand, an engineer or scientist working on the right project could also reduce humanities net carbon foot print by orders of magnitude more than they produce no matter how wasteful they are. Which is doing more for the world?

Alternatepriorities

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #459 on: August 06, 2021, 05:25:26 PM »
Perhaps an unpopular question here.

How many years of YOUR life are YOU will to give to mitigating climate change? In general we Mustachians are already consuming less to quit working sooner. So how many extra years are we willing to work to invest 100% of it in green tech that has a high chance of failure but might save the climate? Or for those who are well paid in other fields, how many more years are we willing to work at a lower paying job at a clean energy company trying to solve some of these problems?

This isn’t rhetorical… I reached FI this year and it’s something I think about a lot. Should I work another year doing something highly profitable that don’t enjoy and then use the money to pay someone else doing work one of the technologies that might change something? Should I find new work in a green tech field even though I don’t need the money and sitting at the computer is bad for me? Should I say “F-it” the world is screwed and enjoy my free time and money while I can?

This is always an interesting personal question.

Personally, I’ve donated somewhere between $70,000 and $100,000 of my income over the past 16 years (didn’t track the first 6 years). I can’t claim that the money all went to helping understand and mitigate climate change, but much of it did go to ensuring the cohort currently coming of age had enough safety and nutrition that their growing brains needed to get smart, and be the innovators that developed the next wave of green tech.

Choosing to be part of this human community definitely increased how long it took me to reach FI, but I still got to my number just fine.


I’ve also been thinking of this thread, in general. One of my ‘watershed’ moments was seeing the Great Pacific Garbage Patch with my own eyes. It strikes the heart in the way that even landfills seem to surpass. Human’s have always had middens, so maybe trash heaps are easier to overlook. There’s nothing historically commensurate about how we’ve choked the oceans.

If I could get every one out into the middle of the gyre, without, ya know, spending untold tones of carbon, I’d make everyone I know go look at the miles and miles of floating trash themselves. I’ve never been tempted by flimsy plastic shit since…

Even the people who are generally optimistic about the world improving seem pessimistic about the oceans...

oldtoyota

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #460 on: August 06, 2021, 07:27:05 PM »
Anyone who thinks we can stop what has already been set in motion is delusional.  First, the US is just 15% of global emissions.  Second, people like the "idea" of a carbon tax and not using fossil fuels, until they are laid off and until they have to pay double for the price of goods and services. The best thing we can do is prepare for the inevitable.

Kurt Vonnegut wrote that we are addicted to fossil fuels. I have to admit he was correct.

nereo

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #461 on: August 06, 2021, 07:29:36 PM »

Anyone who thinks we can stop what has already been set in motion is delusional.  First, the US is just 15% of global emissions.  Second, people like the "idea" of a carbon tax and not using fossil fuels, until they are laid off and until they have to pay double for the price of goods and services. The best thing we can do is prepare for the inevitable.

Double?

LonerMatt

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #462 on: August 06, 2021, 08:48:52 PM »
A twist on the question asked above. In Australia last year, a sizeable % of the population were polled and, among other things, it was arrived that, on average, we'd happily spend $200 each per year combating climate change, but the total amount people said they'd be willing to spend is much higher ($4b). So the reporting outlet (ABC) wrote a really great article about what $4bof direct investment/money into combating climate change would look like. You can read the article here.

It's pretty interesting and some amazing opportunities to reduce our carbon footprint exist at our finger tips, instead we'd rather buy a few 6.6b submarines that 4b a year in climate investment which, for a country that's slated to get hit HARD by climate change, makes little sense.

pecunia

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #463 on: August 06, 2021, 09:07:24 PM »

Anyone who thinks we can stop what has already been set in motion is delusional.  First, the US is just 15% of global emissions.  Second, people like the "idea" of a carbon tax and not using fossil fuels, until they are laid off and until they have to pay double for the price of goods and services. The best thing we can do is prepare for the inevitable.

So true so true.  Crazy idea that we can clean up our sh*t.  Next they will tell us man can fly or go to the moon or such nonsense.


LonerMatt

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #464 on: August 06, 2021, 10:05:35 PM »
What's the name of the fallacy that's about silver bullets? Can we fix all our mistakes right this very second? Of course not. We can't stop that. Can we slow it? Potentially quite meaningfully? Yes.

If I'm going to hit a kid with my car at 50kph I don't say 'well I can't stop completely so no brakes', I slam the fucking brakes to do as little damage as possible. Maybe they'll still get injured, but less so. And that matters.

maizefolk

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #465 on: August 07, 2021, 02:40:30 AM »
+1 to LonerMatt. However bad our realistic "best case" scenarios for the future yet get, the amount of human suffering involved in giving up and doing nothing will be far more than trying to both the reduce the damage.

LennStar

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #466 on: August 07, 2021, 09:08:17 AM »
Perhaps an unpopular question here.

How many years of YOUR life are YOU will to give to mitigating climate change? In general we Mustachians are already consuming less to quit working sooner. So how many extra years are we willing to work to invest 100% of it in green tech that has a high chance of failure but might save the climate? Or for those who are well paid in other fields, how many more years are we willing to work at a lower paying job at a clean energy company trying to solve some of these problems?

This isn’t rhetorical… I reached FI this year and it’s something I think about a lot. Should I work another year doing something highly profitable that don’t enjoy and then use the money to pay someone else doing work one of the technologies that might change something? Should I find new work in a green tech field even though I don’t need the money and sitting at the computer is bad for me? Should I say “F-it” the world is screwed and enjoy my free time and money while I can?
Nice question!

So far, I can only say that 100€/month are definitely going into sub-market 100% green investments (solar power in 3rd world).
I don't think my work skills would translate into anything where you could look for "green work only", not to mention that my main reason for FIRE is that I don't want to have that work-structured day.
That only leaves "proselytising" and aggressive investment. After I reached FIRE, any excess is going into "green" investments, as long as they they have above inflation returns.
Oh, and I am doing BOINC work, if that counts. Give science CPU power that I don't need. Since I only run it when the computer is on anyway and I am on theoretically 100% green energy, that is quite effective for results/CO2.
Depending which calculator you use, I am even inside my alloted CO2 budget. There is only a 1-digit percantage that can say that (in Germany).

Actually I could even add that my meat usage is half of that of an average German (which includes all the vegetarians), so while not perfect, I an about the recommended level both health-side and CO2 side. If I could just let go of Salami, but no chance...
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 09:14:13 AM by LennStar »

meghan88

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #467 on: August 07, 2021, 11:21:23 AM »
Wish I believed that:
- the masses will stop buying all the crap that legions of influencers are peddling;
- the $ sent to good causes will actually get put to work instead of paying for advertising, swag, overhead etc.;
- people won't revolt when governments dare to enact/impose more stringent eco-legislation, and inflation/taxes jump exponentially;
- corporations will do the right thing (address built-in obsolescence; stop moving to less-regulated countries, etc.);
- climate refugees will be welcomed in destination countries ...

A large donation after a life of green living, frugality and savings might pay a salary or two at WWF for a year.  It's gonna take a whole lot more than that.  Humanity has to make some big changes, and that's unlikely to happen any time soon, based on personal observation.

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #468 on: August 07, 2021, 11:52:45 AM »
Wish I believed that:
- the masses will stop buying all the crap that legions of influencers are peddling;
- the $ sent to good causes will actually get put to work instead of paying for advertising, swag, overhead etc.;
- people won't revolt when governments dare to enact/impose more stringent eco-legislation, and inflation/taxes jump exponentially;
- corporations will do the right thing (address built-in obsolescence; stop moving to less-regulated countries, etc.);
- climate refugees will be welcomed in destination countries ...

A large donation after a life of green living, frugality and savings might pay a salary or two at WWF for a year.  It's gonna take a whole lot more than that.  Humanity has to make some big changes, and that's unlikely to happen any time soon, based on personal observation.

The risk isn't so much the public revolting over proactive policy changes, the problem is what's it's always been, that the public makes it impossible for a proactive government to be elected, or for a proactive government to stay elected. 

The public doesn't have to revolt, they just have to stay passive and the electoral system will continue to represent that passive will until the consequences are felt enough to change political will.

maizefolk

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #469 on: August 07, 2021, 01:14:18 PM »
Wish I believed that:
...
- the $ sent to good causes will actually get put to work instead of paying for advertising, swag, overhead etc.;
...
Humanity has to make some big changes, and that's unlikely to happen any time soon, based on personal observation.

If I give $10 to a charity and it gets spent on the mission, or if I give $10, $5 gets spent on the mission and the other $5 gets spent on advertising that brings in another $10 of donations, of which $5 gets spent on the mission and $5 gets spent to bring in another $10 worth of donations and so on, which is the better investment? I'm not entirely convinced it is the first one.

The climate apocalypse isn't a binary answer. Even humanity making some small changes means a better world with modestly less human suffering than if we make no changes at all. Yet some people want to use the unlikeliness of the radical changes required to create what they see as a future an excuse to not put in the effort to make the dark future we face modestly less bad.

partgypsy

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #470 on: August 07, 2021, 01:42:25 PM »
lonermatt, maizefolk especially, thank you for your comments. Sometimes I feel so demoralized, I feel paralyzed. going in the right direction is better than doing nothing. There is no excuse, to do nothing.

BicycleB

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #471 on: August 07, 2021, 02:22:00 PM »

The climate apocalypse isn't a binary answer. Even humanity making some small changes means a better world with modestly less human suffering than if we make no changes at all.

^Very true! I think that it's ok to do things that are reachable on the scale of a person. The problem feels bigger than us, but if we do our share and maybe work together, we'll get there.

Earlier in my life, some acquaintances spent a lot of time holding meetings to draft and discuss a crazy plan about a hypothetical far fetched event. The hypothetical was to close our city's airport and replace it with buildings of a density our town had never seen, to create more energy-efficient traffic patterns and land use.

People thought their goals of addressing climate change were overkill, their proposals unrealistic. Today the old airport is has exactly the density and land use they planned. It's one of the city's most popular neighborhoods. Addressing climate change was important and their moves helped.

My friend from that group told us his focus was to pick the right size fight. A couple months ago I was working a local climate encouragement thing and by doing so, stumbled into an opportunity I didn't know existed. Now I have a group of people working to get new developments in our neighborhood built with all-electric utilities instead of methane ('natural gas'), and possibly with chargers for electric vehicles planned from the start. Bit by bit, we do our part.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 03:09:42 PM by BicycleB »

gaja

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #472 on: August 07, 2021, 02:26:55 PM »
lonermatt, maizefolk especially, thank you for your comments. Sometimes I feel so demoralized, I feel paralyzed. going in the right direction is better than doing nothing. There is no excuse, to do nothing.
The ball is rolling, we just need to push it to increase the speed. In Norway, businesses, NGOs, and municipalities are forming partnerships to develop, promote and purchase environmental friendly solutions. We can't compete in cheap goods and labour, but our industry can compete if people choose quality and environment. I've heard some really funny mental gymnastics from a few politicians, who first want to spent as little public money as possible on something, and then discover that will cost local jobs (and tax income). They can't legally choose local businesses over others, but they can prioritize due to quality and CO2.

Here are some good examples of what businesses and other actors are currently doing (sorry about the language): https://klimapartnere.no/losninger/

LonerMatt

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #473 on: August 07, 2021, 03:10:39 PM »
Wish I believed that:
- the masses will stop buying all the crap that legions of influencers are peddling;
- the $ sent to good causes will actually get put to work instead of paying for advertising, swag, overhead etc.;
- people won't revolt when governments dare to enact/impose more stringent eco-legislation, and inflation/taxes jump exponentially;
- corporations will do the right thing (address built-in obsolescence; stop moving to less-regulated countries, etc.);
- climate refugees will be welcomed in destination countries ...

A large donation after a life of green living, frugality and savings might pay a salary or two at WWF for a year.  It's gonna take a whole lot more than that.  Humanity has to make some big changes, and that's unlikely to happen any time soon, based on personal observation.

This is the sort of logic where all you do is set up a condition for failure, and refuse to set up any for success.

It's not about changing the masses and everything about them. Climate change isn't ACTUALLY the result of everyone, it's caused disproportionately by some industries and some companies and some parts of society. I forget the figure but something like 50% of emissions come from 5-10% of the population. We don't actually need to shift every single person and every single way of living and all of our systems and every micro action. What we need is:

- Reduce transport, agriculture, construction emissions
- Move to post-growth economics (which, frankly, the average citizen doesn't give a fuck about)
- Utilise best design (passive heating, passive cooling, for example) - again this does not require active participation - governments can literally just set standards
- Increasing the costs to extractive industries

You can argue till your blue in the face that people won't want it, and I'll smugly counter - how many average citizens give a shit about policy? Sure there are some big shifts, like just banning concrete, cars and planes, but better shifts: like taxing those things, reducing the costs of better alternatives, etc, aren't actually things a lot of people actively notice.

meghan88

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #474 on: August 07, 2021, 03:47:43 PM »
Wish I believed that:
...
- the $ sent to good causes will actually get put to work instead of paying for advertising, swag, overhead etc.;
...
Humanity has to make some big changes, and that's unlikely to happen any time soon, based on personal observation.

If I give $10 to a charity and it gets spent on the mission, or if I give $10, $5 gets spent on the mission and the other $5 gets spent on advertising that brings in another $10 of donations, of which $5 gets spent on the mission and $5 gets spent to bring in another $10 worth of donations and so on, which is the better investment? I'm not entirely convinced it is the first one.

The climate apocalypse isn't a binary answer. Even humanity making some small changes means a better world with modestly less human suffering than if we make no changes at all. Yet some people want to use the unlikeliness of the radical changes required to create what they see as a future an excuse to not put in the effort to make the dark future we face modestly less bad.

Agree 100%; we do what we can, and then some:  No kids, no car, bare-bones lifestyle, reduce/reuse/recycle to the max, etc.  But we're just about the only ones in our circle of family, friends, colleagues to do so.

Malcat:  that's an astute observation, as always.  Makes me think though that things will have to get a lot worse before they get better, in that regard.  And I do wonder why any sane person would want to run for office these days, what with all the hostility, muckraking, misinformation.  It's a downright dangerous profession.

meghan88

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #475 on: August 07, 2021, 04:00:31 PM »

This is the sort of logic where all you do is set up a condition for failure, and refuse to set up any for success.

It's not about changing the masses and everything about them. Climate change isn't ACTUALLY the result of everyone, it's caused disproportionately by some industries and some companies and some parts of society. I forget the figure but something like 50% of emissions come from 5-10% of the population. We don't actually need to shift every single person and every single way of living and all of our systems and every micro action. What we need is:

- Reduce transport, agriculture, construction emissions
- Move to post-growth economics (which, frankly, the average citizen doesn't give a fuck about)
- Utilise best design (passive heating, passive cooling, for example) - again this does not require active participation - governments can literally just set standards
- Increasing the costs to extractive industries

You can argue till your blue in the face that people won't want it, and I'll smugly counter - how many average citizens give a shit about policy? Sure there are some big shifts, like just banning concrete, cars and planes, but better shifts: like taxing those things, reducing the costs of better alternatives, etc, aren't actually things a lot of people actively notice.

Great points, all; I admit that no one's ever accused me of being an optimist.  And I think that people certainly DO notice taxes, especially when it hits their pocketbooks...

Metalcat

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #476 on: August 07, 2021, 04:07:55 PM »
Wish I believed that:
...
- the $ sent to good causes will actually get put to work instead of paying for advertising, swag, overhead etc.;
...
Humanity has to make some big changes, and that's unlikely to happen any time soon, based on personal observation.

If I give $10 to a charity and it gets spent on the mission, or if I give $10, $5 gets spent on the mission and the other $5 gets spent on advertising that brings in another $10 of donations, of which $5 gets spent on the mission and $5 gets spent to bring in another $10 worth of donations and so on, which is the better investment? I'm not entirely convinced it is the first one.

The climate apocalypse isn't a binary answer. Even humanity making some small changes means a better world with modestly less human suffering than if we make no changes at all. Yet some people want to use the unlikeliness of the radical changes required to create what they see as a future an excuse to not put in the effort to make the dark future we face modestly less bad.

Agree 100%; we do what we can, and then some:  No kids, no car, bare-bones lifestyle, reduce/reuse/recycle to the max, etc.  But we're just about the only ones in our circle of family, friends, colleagues to do so.

Malcat:  that's an astute observation, as always.  Makes me think though that things will have to get a lot worse before they get better, in that regard.  And I do wonder why any sane person would want to run for office these days, what with all the hostility, muckraking, misinformation.  It's a downright dangerous profession.

It always has been a dangerous profession, and like all dangerous professions, it has always had no problem attracting people, despite the very real threats to personal safety. Seriously, you can't even be a city councilor without getting troubling death threats, but that's not new.

The problem isn't attracting people to politics, the problem is trying to combine winning with actually doing anything significant, which are goals that are often diametrically opposed.

Tides are slowly changing though, the political will is growing, which means that corporations are starting to get on board, which means that marketing is starting to move towards promoting these values, which then increases the public political will, and so on and so on and the wheels keep spinning.

The younger generations are becoming a larger and larger economic force, which means pandering to their environmental concerns is now lucrative. This is why so many major corporations are now developing independent policies to align with SDGs.

But progress is slow. We're getting there, but not because of any boldness or bravery on the part of governments, but because the wheels of change have been moving on this for decades and it's finally snowballing into a large enough economic force to be worth political attention. It's slowly becoming a thing that gets people elected as opposed to always keeping them from being elected.

Political progress is always a good 10-20 years behind social progress though.

My point is, change doesn't come from sitting governments, change comes from a gradual building of political will enough within the public such that governments risk more by ignoring them than pandering to them.

4tify

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #477 on: August 07, 2021, 05:49:42 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/06/world/climate-gulf-stream-collapse-warning-study-intl/index.html

Think I remember reading something of this upthread...but it's interesting and somewhat terrifying. My wife and I love 'Day After Tomorrow' but I never dreamed the premise of the cause for the abrupt climate shift in that movie was actually playing out in real life.

This is really scary. I have tried to do what I can within my sphere of influence, but it’s increasingly seeming like taking greater action may be in order.

I’m FI and have been OMY 2x now (last one thanks to pandemic, but I thought I could do more good in my position keeping people employed). Now that that’s over I wonder if the right move would be advancing the climate cause.

For those of you who know more about this than I do, what would be the most impactful jobs/missions to help move the needle?

Metalcat

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #478 on: August 07, 2021, 06:29:22 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/06/world/climate-gulf-stream-collapse-warning-study-intl/index.html

Think I remember reading something of this upthread...but it's interesting and somewhat terrifying. My wife and I love 'Day After Tomorrow' but I never dreamed the premise of the cause for the abrupt climate shift in that movie was actually playing out in real life.

This is really scary. I have tried to do what I can within my sphere of influence, but it’s increasingly seeming like taking greater action may be in order.

I’m FI and have been OMY 2x now (last one thanks to pandemic, but I thought I could do more good in my position keeping people employed). Now that that’s over I wonder if the right move would be advancing the climate cause.

For those of you who know more about this than I do, what would be the most impactful jobs/missions to help move the needle?

The first step is always to inform yourself. Do that and it will start becoming self evident as to how best to use your particular skills and resources.

There are TONS of strategies for being proactive, but that also means that there are a lot of ways to waste your particular energy as well.

Delve in, you'll find where your little corner of the challenge is.

gaja

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #479 on: August 08, 2021, 04:02:04 AM »
Jobs/missions where you can make a change:

1) Remove fossil emissions:

a) Electricity production.
What to do:
I) promote reduction of energy use (lobby for stricter building laws, provide funds for isolation/LED/etc for people who can't afford it, or maybe install energy efficient solutions)
II) promote increased production of renewable energy (invest in your own PVs, join cooperatives that invest in wind power, invest money with actors such as TRINE.com)

b) Transport
What to do:
I) promote solutions that lead to less transport (WFH, staycations, etc)
II) promote biking and walking
III) promote public transport
IV) promote change to renewable fuels, preferrably biogas, electricity and hydrogen

c) Industry
What to do:
I) provide funding for energy analysis for businesses. It doesn't cost much to get an initial analysis done, and they can usually find something the business can do right away that can save both kWh and money, with extremely short payback for the business.
II) promote good examples from businesses. It doesn't have to be revolutionary stuff - if businesses see that they get free avertisement for doing green things, it will get the ball rolling and they will do more
III) lobby for green public procurement
IV) provide education in green entrepreneurship for children, preferrably in cooperation with local businesses. The kids might have good ideas, but more importantly the focus will shift for the kids, their parents, and the businesses they cooperate with.

d) Agriculture
I) promote fossil free machines and robots
II) promote biogas production at the farm from waste products, to cover their own needs. If combined with CO2 capture in greenhouses; even better.

2) Reduce biological and chemical emissions:
a) Agriculture
I) Promote food that has less biological and chemical emissions. Usually this is local food eaten in season, and reduced meat consumption.
II) Provide information and funding to farmers to reduce N2O emissions through better drainage and less soil packing.
III) Provide information to farmers on how to feed the animals to reduce methane emissions
IV) Support testing of feedstuff and breeding to get animals with less methane emissions

b) Waste and waste water
I) promote reduction of waste (smarter packaging, cooperation with hotels and restaurants to get people to eat all their food, etc)
II) promote biogas projects to capture methane (for energy) and make fertilizer from waste and waste water

3) Increase carbon capture and storage
I) promote industrial CCS and CCSU projects
II) plant trees
III) promote grazing animals
IV) promote biochar projects
V) promote regenerative agriculture and get more people to grow their own food
VI) Save the oceans

Metalcat

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #480 on: August 08, 2021, 08:38:46 AM »
Jobs/missions where you can make a change:

1) Remove fossil emissions:

a) Electricity production.
What to do:
I) promote reduction of energy use (lobby for stricter building laws, provide funds for isolation/LED/etc for people who can't afford it, or maybe install energy efficient solutions)
II) promote increased production of renewable energy (invest in your own PVs, join cooperatives that invest in wind power, invest money with actors such as TRINE.com)

b) Transport
What to do:
I) promote solutions that lead to less transport (WFH, staycations, etc)
II) promote biking and walking
III) promote public transport
IV) promote change to renewable fuels, preferrably biogas, electricity and hydrogen

c) Industry
What to do:
I) provide funding for energy analysis for businesses. It doesn't cost much to get an initial analysis done, and they can usually find something the business can do right away that can save both kWh and money, with extremely short payback for the business.
II) promote good examples from businesses. It doesn't have to be revolutionary stuff - if businesses see that they get free avertisement for doing green things, it will get the ball rolling and they will do more
III) lobby for green public procurement
IV) provide education in green entrepreneurship for children, preferrably in cooperation with local businesses. The kids might have good ideas, but more importantly the focus will shift for the kids, their parents, and the businesses they cooperate with.

d) Agriculture
I) promote fossil free machines and robots
II) promote biogas production at the farm from waste products, to cover their own needs. If combined with CO2 capture in greenhouses; even better.

2) Reduce biological and chemical emissions:
a) Agriculture
I) Promote food that has less biological and chemical emissions. Usually this is local food eaten in season, and reduced meat consumption.
II) Provide information and funding to farmers to reduce N2O emissions through better drainage and less soil packing.
III) Provide information to farmers on how to feed the animals to reduce methane emissions
IV) Support testing of feedstuff and breeding to get animals with less methane emissions

b) Waste and waste water
I) promote reduction of waste (smarter packaging, cooperation with hotels and restaurants to get people to eat all their food, etc)
II) promote biogas projects to capture methane (for energy) and make fertilizer from waste and waste water

3) Increase carbon capture and storage
I) promote industrial CCS and CCSU projects
II) plant trees
III) promote grazing animals
IV) promote biochar projects
V) promote regenerative agriculture and get more people to grow their own food
VI) Save the oceans

Great list, but the term "promote" can mean a whole whack of different things. That's what I meant by delving in and figuring out where your individual skills and resources are.

For example, I'm an EXCELLENT fundraiser and have a huge network of very wealthy people, so that's a skill that I can use to help promote an agenda, get someone elected, etc.

DH is an EXCELLENT researcher and networker who has the resource of a huge network of connections in government and non government organizations globally, and has generated massive reports on what countries and companies are doing globally to incorporate the SDGs into policy.

Someone with social media skills could contribute to promotion through grassroots awareness. Or someone with marketing skills could provide marketing services.

Someone with no skills at all for promotion could provide totally different skills to a non profit that needs support in other ways. Like an accountant could provide financial support to a fledgling NGO that needs to keep its costs down. I spent years providing free statistical analysis to a small non profit, logistics work for another,
managing volunteers in yet another, and I've been an executive of one for years where I use my upper management skills to wrangle a board into optimal function.

Everyone has valuable skills, and those skills can be leveraged in some way to be useful to a cause. In fact, it's often the less obvious ways to provide support that are the most valuable.

Back when I was applying to med school, everyone was competing to get volunteer positions in hospitals, where they were of little use. I instead sought out a volunteer position with the hospital foundation, which is the fundraising arm, where I could actually be valuable. At the end of the day, I provided WAY MORE value to the hospital than the in-hospital student volunteers who mostly got in the way.

Chaplin

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #481 on: August 08, 2021, 09:47:35 AM »
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/06/world/climate-gulf-stream-collapse-warning-study-intl/index.html

Think I remember reading something of this upthread...but it's interesting and somewhat terrifying. My wife and I love 'Day After Tomorrow' but I never dreamed the premise of the cause for the abrupt climate shift in that movie was actually playing out in real life.

This is really scary. I have tried to do what I can within my sphere of influence, but it’s increasingly seeming like taking greater action may be in order.

I’m FI and have been OMY 2x now (last one thanks to pandemic, but I thought I could do more good in my position keeping people employed). Now that that’s over I wonder if the right move would be advancing the climate cause.

For those of you who know more about this than I do, what would be the most impactful jobs/missions to help move the needle?

This is what I'm working on figuring out too. I FIRE'd two months ago and this is primarily where I would like to put my energy and skills, so I'm trying to figure out where and how I can do that effectively. I've been working on getting my own house in order for years - a perfect fit with trying to achieve FI anyway. There's always room to improve but returns are diminishing. To really have an impact your actions need scale where your effort is multiplied. One activity I do that has absolutely no scale is picking up trash in the neighborhood because I don't want the plastic to end up in the ocean. One person's effort = one person worth of output. I still do it because I enjoy it, the results are visible (neighborhood, which was already in good shape, looks even better), and I use the time to listen to podcasts. That's part of the informing myself that Malcat mentioned. I feel like I've been reading on this topic for many years so the informing yourself phase is never-ending and there can be a risk of waiting to take some action once you feel like you're fully informed.

Gaja's list is good, but as Malcat points out, what do you actually do to act on one or more of those points beyond addressing your personal consumption and activities? There are good organizations to join, but ultimately most of the action required has to have a significant component of government action so that's the area with the most scale. As Malcat, again, pointed out up-thread, political progress follows social progress. That's where being involved in volunteer and charitable organizations comes in, but I think there also needs to be that direct element of getting involved in calling or writing to representatives, showing up at town-halls, council meetings and protests, and even running for local office.

bacchi

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #482 on: August 08, 2021, 10:06:34 AM »
II) promote increased production of renewable energy (invest in your own PVs, join cooperatives that invest in wind power, invest money with actors such as TRINE.com)

Bummer, trine only accepts money from the EEA. Mosaic used to do this in the states, and I made a number of loans through them, but they switched strategies.

Metalcat

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #483 on: August 08, 2021, 10:12:35 AM »
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/06/world/climate-gulf-stream-collapse-warning-study-intl/index.html

Think I remember reading something of this upthread...but it's interesting and somewhat terrifying. My wife and I love 'Day After Tomorrow' but I never dreamed the premise of the cause for the abrupt climate shift in that movie was actually playing out in real life.

This is really scary. I have tried to do what I can within my sphere of influence, but it’s increasingly seeming like taking greater action may be in order.

I’m FI and have been OMY 2x now (last one thanks to pandemic, but I thought I could do more good in my position keeping people employed). Now that that’s over I wonder if the right move would be advancing the climate cause.

For those of you who know more about this than I do, what would be the most impactful jobs/missions to help move the needle?

This is what I'm working on figuring out too. I FIRE'd two months ago and this is primarily where I would like to put my energy and skills, so I'm trying to figure out where and how I can do that effectively. I've been working on getting my own house in order for years - a perfect fit with trying to achieve FI anyway. There's always room to improve but returns are diminishing. To really have an impact your actions need scale where your effort is multiplied. One activity I do that has absolutely no scale is picking up trash in the neighborhood because I don't want the plastic to end up in the ocean. One person's effort = one person worth of output. I still do it because I enjoy it, the results are visible (neighborhood, which was already in good shape, looks even better), and I use the time to listen to podcasts. That's part of the informing myself that Malcat mentioned. I feel like I've been reading on this topic for many years so the informing yourself phase is never-ending and there can be a risk of waiting to take some action once you feel like you're fully informed.

Gaja's list is good, but as Malcat points out, what do you actually do to act on one or more of those points beyond addressing your personal consumption and activities? There are good organizations to join, but ultimately most of the action required has to have a significant component of government action so that's the area with the most scale. As Malcat, again, pointed out up-thread, political progress follows social progress. That's where being involved in volunteer and charitable organizations comes in, but I think there also needs to be that direct element of getting involved in calling or writing to representatives, showing up at town-halls, council meetings and protests, and even running for local office.

Or being useful in some way to the people who do this.

That was the point of my post, everyone tries to make change in the most obvious ways, meanwhile, the ecosystem is the very same one that we all work in already, so just redirecting skills and connections you already have is usually more impactful than trying to build a whole new skill set and network.

Try to remember that we're all already part of the very system that determines how the future will turn out, you don't have to remove yourself from that system to influence it, you just have to harness the forces you already control.

It's exactly the same thinking you would use to start your own business: what resources do I have and how can I leverage them to mobilize the market to my will? Think of it more like a business where your measure of success isn't profit for yourself, but positive outcomes for humanity.

There are more than enough people doing the obvious work, that's why it feels so difficult to make a change. Meanwhile, there's TONS of highly effective work out there to be done that far fewer people are doing.

For me, as someone who runs a non profit, I have way more useless fucking volunteers trying to "do good" than I can manage, but what really helps me is my professional connections. My value to my professional network actually brings more to the table for my non profit than anything else. Other companies want access to my professional network, so they're willing to contribute to my non-profit work in order to get me to broker connections for them. Do-gooders are essentially useless to me, but high level professionals who are in some way useful to other high level professionals are worth their weight in gold, and my value is that I understand how to harness that value for my organization.

It's no coincidence that the non-profit world is so intimately intertwined with the business world at very high levels. These are not separate systems.

former player

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #484 on: August 08, 2021, 10:17:34 AM »
Lots of good suggestions here, but I do think starting with one's own consumption is key - for example, trying to promote energy efficiency in transport while still flying on holiday or to see relatives leads to the easy charge of hypocrisy and brings the whole movement into disrepute, giving the less environmentally inclined the excuse they want to not change their behaviour.  One example of hyprocrisy can be the excuse used by a significant number of people to carry on their own damaging behaviour, paticularly if it's by someone high profile.

The other suggestion I would make is: stay local to start with.  Look around your own area for projects, make a difference locally and then push that effort outwards: you will have gained the experience to know what works and the credibility to inspire others to do the same.  And pressing your local elected representatives for action is usually more effective than trying to move things nationally or internationally without a firm base to work from.


maizefolk

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #485 on: August 08, 2021, 01:38:09 PM »
It's interesting to see the two approaches:

A) One focused on people making individual decisions to give up things they'd otherwise want to reduce their consumption (e.g. abstaining from flying to see family so that others will feel like they have fewer excuses not to do the same).
B) One focused on changing systems so that the easy choice for people is also the right one for the the planet and the long term survival of our civilization (e.g. BicycleB's example of urban densification in the footprint of an old airport which reduces how much people will need to or want to drive).

I'd put carbon taxes and subsidies for electric cars into category B as well. Society as a whole putting incentives into place so that the easier choice for individuals is also the choice that is better for our civilization collectively. Things like getting solar panels installed on ones house are somewhere in between. In principle they don't move the needle unless lots of people do the same, but my experience has been a lot of people who buy solar panels seem to get a lot of personnel satisfaction from just having the cool new toy to fiddle with, and the data on solar power generation to track. So there is some level of personal emotional reward that is isn't present when the right decision is simple abstinence.

That's not an argument not to personally make the hard-but-good choices. I'm just personally pessimistic about people's ability to make the hard-but-good choices in the context of voluntary collective action. But it seems like lots of others are more optimistic about it than me, so I could well be wrong.

gaja

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #486 on: August 08, 2021, 02:13:32 PM »
Great list, but the term "promote" can mean a whole whack of different things. That's what I meant by delving in and figuring out where your individual skills and resources are.

For example, I'm an EXCELLENT fundraiser and have a huge network of very wealthy people, so that's a skill that I can use to help promote an agenda, get someone elected, etc.

DH is an EXCELLENT researcher and networker who has the resource of a huge network of connections in government and non government organizations globally, and has generated massive reports on what countries and companies are doing globally to incorporate the SDGs into policy.

Someone with social media skills could contribute to promotion through grassroots awareness. Or someone with marketing skills could provide marketing services.

Someone with no skills at all for promotion could provide totally different skills to a non profit that needs support in other ways. Like an accountant could provide financial support to a fledgling NGO that needs to keep its costs down. I spent years providing free statistical analysis to a small non profit, logistics work for another,
managing volunteers in yet another, and I've been an executive of one for years where I use my upper management skills to wrangle a board into optimal function.

Everyone has valuable skills, and those skills can be leveraged in some way to be useful to a cause. In fact, it's often the less obvious ways to provide support that are the most valuable.

Back when I was applying to med school, everyone was competing to get volunteer positions in hospitals, where they were of little use. I instead sought out a volunteer position with the hospital foundation, which is the fundraising arm, where I could actually be valuable. At the end of the day, I provided WAY MORE value to the hospital than the in-hospital student volunteers who mostly got in the way.

Yes, everyone need to play to their strengths, both in how they approach the topic, but also in what topic they choose. It is impossible for one person to adress all these issues. But if you already know something about the food industry, and have contacts there, you could make a difference by adressing food waste. If you know someone who owns a business, or is member of a business organisation, it could be a good idea to talk to them about what energy efficiency measures they have implemented. Maybe they can get some new ideas, especially since it will save them money as well.

We do not need to change everyone's opinion, or engage everyone. If 10 % of the population care about something, that is usually enough to make changes to policy. And for a lot of these things, we don't need large changes on a system level, since the technology in many cases is available and affordable. If you work on a local level, you can get a lot done if you find the right alliances. The leader of the Samsø Energy Academy, Søren Hermansen, often says you need to convince the blacksmith to your cause: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-xFXOJNxAQ

Metalcat

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #487 on: August 08, 2021, 02:31:17 PM »
Great list, but the term "promote" can mean a whole whack of different things. That's what I meant by delving in and figuring out where your individual skills and resources are.

For example, I'm an EXCELLENT fundraiser and have a huge network of very wealthy people, so that's a skill that I can use to help promote an agenda, get someone elected, etc.

DH is an EXCELLENT researcher and networker who has the resource of a huge network of connections in government and non government organizations globally, and has generated massive reports on what countries and companies are doing globally to incorporate the SDGs into policy.

Someone with social media skills could contribute to promotion through grassroots awareness. Or someone with marketing skills could provide marketing services.

Someone with no skills at all for promotion could provide totally different skills to a non profit that needs support in other ways. Like an accountant could provide financial support to a fledgling NGO that needs to keep its costs down. I spent years providing free statistical analysis to a small non profit, logistics work for another,
managing volunteers in yet another, and I've been an executive of one for years where I use my upper management skills to wrangle a board into optimal function.

Everyone has valuable skills, and those skills can be leveraged in some way to be useful to a cause. In fact, it's often the less obvious ways to provide support that are the most valuable.

Back when I was applying to med school, everyone was competing to get volunteer positions in hospitals, where they were of little use. I instead sought out a volunteer position with the hospital foundation, which is the fundraising arm, where I could actually be valuable. At the end of the day, I provided WAY MORE value to the hospital than the in-hospital student volunteers who mostly got in the way.

Yes, everyone need to play to their strengths, both in how they approach the topic, but also in what topic they choose. It is impossible for one person to adress all these issues. But if you already know something about the food industry, and have contacts there, you could make a difference by adressing food waste. If you know someone who owns a business, or is member of a business organisation, it could be a good idea to talk to them about what energy efficiency measures they have implemented. Maybe they can get some new ideas, especially since it will save them money as well.

We do not need to change everyone's opinion, or engage everyone. If 10 % of the population care about something, that is usually enough to make changes to policy. And for a lot of these things, we don't need large changes on a system level, since the technology in many cases is available and affordable. If you work on a local level, you can get a lot done if you find the right alliances. The leader of the Samsø Energy Academy, Søren Hermansen, often says you need to convince the blacksmith to your cause: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-xFXOJNxAQ

Exactly. A lot of people do *nothing* because they don't know where to start and don't even see the ways in which they can make this all part of their lifestyle. You just start somewhere and it builds.

Just Joe

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #488 on: August 16, 2021, 09:48:31 AM »
Anyone who thinks we can stop what has already been set in motion is delusional.  First, the US is just 15% of global emissions.  Second, people like the "idea" of a carbon tax and not using fossil fuels, until they are laid off and until they have to pay double for the price of goods and services. The best thing we can do is prepare for the inevitable.

Kurt Vonnegut wrote that we are addicted to fossil fuels. I have to admit he was correct.

Cheap and easy energy. I've come to believe that the only thing that might save us in the USA is European type energy prices.

joe189man

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #489 on: August 16, 2021, 10:22:58 AM »
I think ~60% of Americans would be open to some strong climate change type legislation, stuff like carbon credits, electric vehicle mandates, solar, wind, nuclear, energy efficiency upgrades and mandates and lots of others and ~40% would start a civil war to maintain the status quo

PDXTabs

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #490 on: August 16, 2021, 11:54:16 AM »
It's interesting to see the two approaches:

A) One focused on people making individual decisions to give up things they'd otherwise want to reduce their consumption (e.g. abstaining from flying to see family so that others will feel like they have fewer excuses not to do the same).
B) One focused on changing systems so that the easy choice for people is also the right one for the the planet and the long term survival of our civilization (e.g. BicycleB's example of urban densification in the footprint of an old airport which reduces how much people will need to or want to drive).

I'd put carbon taxes and subsidies for electric cars into category B as well. Society as a whole putting incentives into place so that the easier choice for individuals is also the choice that is better for our civilization collectively. Things like getting solar panels installed on ones house are somewhere in between. In principle they don't move the needle unless lots of people do the same, but my experience has been a lot of people who buy solar panels seem to get a lot of personnel satisfaction from just having the cool new toy to fiddle with, and the data on solar power generation to track. So there is some level of personal emotional reward that is isn't present when the right decision is simple abstinence.

That's not an argument not to personally make the hard-but-good choices. I'm just personally pessimistic about people's ability to make the hard-but-good choices in the context of voluntary collective action. But it seems like lots of others are more optimistic about it than me, so I could well be wrong.

I think that it is more complicated than that. In particular, where do you put zoning laws in a democracy? NIMBYs seem plentiful and in most communities intent on continued car dependent sprawl. That seems to fall into both A&B in my thinking. They are refusing to take the individual action of supporting reasonable zoning laws and thus preventing a systematic approach.

PDXTabs

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #491 on: August 16, 2021, 12:33:09 PM »
Along the lines of my last post, people say that they want systemic solutions until it would impact them in even the most minor of ways. Eg, Portland is about to reduce bike lanes to preserve car lanes on a bus project. To quote Sarah Iannarone "The question is, if we can’t make that commitment in this place, we’re not going to make it anywhere in Portland... I don’t mean to get aggro about it, but like, literally, this is one of the bikey-est spots in our entire region. If we can’t do it here, I’m practically ready to give up." - PBOT looks to narrow Hawthorne Bridge viaduct bikeway to add bus lane

To be clear here, my complaint is that they are preserving the four car lanes and sacrificing bike space, in Portland. If Portland can't do it, right next to downtown where people are already using the infrastructure, who can in the USA?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 01:02:48 PM by PDXTabs »

GodlessCommie

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #492 on: August 16, 2021, 12:39:16 PM »
Same as New England super-liberals blocking offshore wind for more than a decade. We are all for saving the planet, unless we have to park 10 steps farther from the door.

former player

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #493 on: August 16, 2021, 12:56:04 PM »
It even happens on this forum.  If ever there was a group of people who are planning on having a liveable planet with stable governments and economic growth into the next two or three or four decades it's the members of this forum, but ask if they are going to cut down on or stop flying around the globe, or rethink their plans for extensive and expensive travel in retirement and there is instant indignation.

GuitarStv

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #494 on: August 16, 2021, 01:10:55 PM »
It even happens on this forum.  If ever there was a group of people who are planning on having a liveable planet with stable governments and economic growth into the next two or three or four decades it's the members of this forum, but ask if they are going to cut down on or stop flying around the globe, or rethink their plans for extensive and expensive travel in retirement and there is instant indignation.

It's a pretty clear cut tragedy of the commons problem.  Individual actors personally benefit by taking actions that damage it, but everyone is disadvantaged by this damage and eventually we all have to pay the price.  That's why the 'individual freedom' approach to environmental problems always fails - until the resource is destroyed, there's no real motivation for an individual actor to work for the benefit of all.

maizefolk

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #495 on: August 16, 2021, 01:58:41 PM »
I think that it is more complicated than that. In particular, where do you put zoning laws in a democracy? NIMBYs seem plentiful and in most communities intent on continued car dependent sprawl. That seems to fall into both A&B in my thinking. They are refusing to take the individual action of supporting reasonable zoning laws and thus preventing a systematic approach.

I'd put YIMBY movements where people show up at zoning meetings to argue against NIMBY-ism as individual action and state/federal level reforms to zoning laws to move decisions out of local communities so we can vote as a whole society to adopt changes that benefit all of us in aggregate (e.g. automatically allowing multi-story dense development around public transit stops) as the systematic approach.

BicycleB

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #496 on: August 16, 2021, 02:03:04 PM »
Since zoning affects groups or classes of people, I would not classify it as individual.

If an individual attempts to pass a group policy, yes they're being an individual, but they're affecting others rather than just themselves. Democracy is a group sport.

jambongris

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #497 on: August 16, 2021, 07:40:50 PM »
I was watching this relevant documentary the other day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE&ab_channel=MichaelMoore

It seemed to confirm many of the things I've had unease and suspicions about in the 'green' energy field over the past while.

I haven’t watched it but there is apparently a lot wrong with the movie.

Ars Technica - Michael Moore’s green energy takedown - worse than Netflix’s Goop series?

Quote
Ultimately, Planet of the Humans is a mash-up of things Jeff Gibbs doesn’t know, presented as if no one knows them. And for most people, you’ll know less after watching it than you did at the start.

For a documentary about energy, it’s all heat and no light.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 07:45:13 PM by jambongris »

blue_green_sparks

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #498 on: August 16, 2021, 08:59:11 PM »
I didn't reproduce. Cost me a spouse long ago but that one devolved into a big spender and I would most likely still be some sort of indentured servant.

pecunia

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Re: "The climate apocalypse is coming ... "
« Reply #499 on: August 16, 2021, 09:15:34 PM »
There's a Canadian from Alberta named Gordon McDowell who has made some really informative films about nuclear power.  He recently made one about the Canadian Green Party.  He did not portray them in a very positive light due to what is perceived as their lack of information about nuclear power.  He catches the nuances of these folks in a wonderful way.  He also has a Canadian Energy Politician of some sort on the video and after seeing the video I wish we had him in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXIdM7ABQ8b9FI495vbsHkA

 

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