Author Topic: "Silent Summer" in the PNW  (Read 2693 times)

Chaplin

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1902
  • Location: Le Canada
"Silent Summer" in the PNW
« on: July 10, 2021, 02:34:57 PM »
Since the heat wave and "heat dome" just over a week ago the mornings have have been eerily quiet around here (Victoria, BC). Usually there's a constant racket of birds of all types so it makes me wonder if there was a big die off. There were stories out of Seattle specifically about one type of bird with urban nests suffering because the young got so hot they left their nests too early. I've also heard about mass die-offs of tidal marine life due to the heat, but not much about the wider bird population.

We are still seeing crows and humming birds, and some other birds, but nowhere near the quantities we're used to.

Any observations, thoughts, or news reports I've missed?


GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2021, 03:02:38 PM »
Well, that's depressing.

I was hoping that maybe the bird thing was due to smoke and the fires, but massive ecological damage could certainly do it too.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3798
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2021, 04:47:17 PM »
Yes, that happens here in Texas periodically, when we have extreme heat early in the year. When it happens, my husband always goes out and does a nest check (looking for attendant adults or bodies under the nests) on all the raptor nests he monitors locally, and there's always a sample of young nestlings that presumably either 'cooked' in the nest and were expelled or those that presumably flailed around too much and fell out (or if slightly older attempted to fledge too early).  But presumably lots more nestlings die in those events than we actually see, b/c we usually get a round of nest 'failures' where the adults are suddenly no longer in attendance, which means the nestlings died in the nest from heat or the adults had to leave the nest too often to bathe or drink, and the nestlings were too exposed to the sun or were predated by jays or squirrels or opossums or some such.

Of course, we also get this kind of thing after intense storms (nestlings killed by hail or blown out of nests), but it's not as noticeable.

Here's some typical pics from a couple such recent episodes.

It's depressing.

sonofsven

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2021, 08:20:59 AM »
I keep purple martin gourds in Oregon, this year only two breeding pairs, last year had eight breeding pairs.
Who knows why.

Chaplin

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1902
  • Location: Le Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2021, 10:38:24 AM »
Thanks for the comments and thoughts Financial.Velociraptor, GuitarStv, wenchsenior and sonofsven.

I've only seen a bit more news reporting on this, mainly that the estimates of shoreline marine life death were undersestimates. Not much more on birds. We are seeing other species now, but in what appear to be lower numbers. I don't often see dead squirrels on the ground but I've seen several lately. Just anecdata.

I heard a few comments from people about the heatwave here "radicalizing" them to climate change causes. I hope that's true and not a feeling that subsides over time.

sixwings

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 545
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2021, 11:31:48 AM »
Since the heat wave and "heat dome" just over a week ago the mornings have have been eerily quiet around here (Victoria, BC). Usually there's a constant racket of birds of all types so it makes me wonder if there was a big die off. There were stories out of Seattle specifically about one type of bird with urban nests suffering because the young got so hot they left their nests too early. I've also heard about mass die-offs of tidal marine life due to the heat, but not much about the wider bird population.

We are still seeing crows and humming birds, and some other birds, but nowhere near the quantities we're used to.

Any observations, thoughts, or news reports I've missed?

I also live in Victoria (Oak Bay) and it's definitely real. I always leave the window open at night and I love waking up at 5ish and listen to the birdsong for about 30 mins while I doze before I get up to exercise. That birdsong doesn't exist this year. I'm hoping it's only temporary and bird populations will bounce back. It's really sad. I have a friend who is a birdwatcher and he said that the heatwave caused a massive die off and very few young birds survived it. I would expect that since it hasnt rained since mid-june most of their water sources are gone as well. It makes me really sad.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 12:00:44 PM by sixwings »

Jenny Wren

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 753
  • Location: PNW
  • Just another dharma bum
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2021, 12:27:31 PM »
I live on the coast in NW Washington (a 20 minute drive from the Canadian border). My feeders have still been full of jays, juncos, downy woodpeckers, and pine siskins, but I haven't seen a Flicker even though we usually had several a day. Noticed quite a bit of die off in the woods, as well.

The salmonberries have all wilted pretty badly, and developing huckleberries shriveled on the plant. I've noticed quite a bit of sword fern dieback, too. I did some work on a sword fern study a couple of years back measuring and tracking growth each summer, so I'm a bit attuned to their health now. They should be setting spores right now, but a lot of the fertile fronds have withered. We won't know the extent of the damage for a year at least on the plants, though, as they may bounce back next year.

I've seen damage on the coast, as well. Every muscle and barnacle I've seen at the tide lines had been dead. They are just flaking off the rocks en masse. We've also found a lot more than usual of the smaller brittle sea stars dead and washed up. Sad and frightening.

pachnik

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1897
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2021, 12:30:05 PM »
Thanks for the comments and thoughts Financial.Velociraptor, GuitarStv, wenchsenior and sonofsven.

I've only seen a bit more news reporting on this, mainly that the estimates of shoreline marine life death were undersestimates. Not much more on birds. We are seeing other species now, but in what appear to be lower numbers. I don't often see dead squirrels on the ground but I've seen several lately. Just anecdata.

I heard a few comments from people about the heatwave here "radicalizing" them to climate change causes. I hope that's true and not a feeling that subsides over time.

Sad to read this.  But thanks for posting about it.  I live in Vancouver and am going to listen for the birdsong. 

The heat dome has made me way more aware of climate change.  It was so shocking - a heatwave around here is usually 31 or 32 celsius not 42. 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 01:12:49 PM by pachnik »

TrMama

  • Guest
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2021, 12:54:26 PM »
I hadn't really noticed fewer small birds in our part of town, however there seem to be a lot fewer of the invasive lizards than last year. I know they're not supposed to be here anyway, but after years of what felt like explosive population growth in our yard, it's weird to have fewer of them.

The heat wave didn't radicalize me, but it did serve as a kick in the pants to make some changes to our house to make it more comfortable and resilient going forward. I'm also getting more and more nervous about fires. Our neighbourhood is in a forest interface area and we now have a fire evacuation plan, just like when I was a kid growing up in the Okanagan.

dougules

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2899
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2021, 01:50:37 PM »
Yes, that happens here in Texas periodically, when we have extreme heat early in the year. When it happens, my husband always goes out and does a nest check (looking for attendant adults or bodies under the nests) on all the raptor nests he monitors locally, and there's always a sample of young nestlings that presumably either 'cooked' in the nest and were expelled or those that presumably flailed around too much and fell out (or if slightly older attempted to fledge too early).  But presumably lots more nestlings die in those events than we actually see, b/c we usually get a round of nest 'failures' where the adults are suddenly no longer in attendance, which means the nestlings died in the nest from heat or the adults had to leave the nest too often to bathe or drink, and the nestlings were too exposed to the sun or were predated by jays or squirrels or opossums or some such.

Of course, we also get this kind of thing after intense storms (nestlings killed by hail or blown out of nests), but it's not as noticeable.

Here's some typical pics from a couple such recent episodes.

It's depressing.

That's kind of surprising.  You'd think the birds in TX would have adapted given that extreme heat is semi-normal there. 

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3798
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2021, 04:17:44 PM »
Yes, that happens here in Texas periodically, when we have extreme heat early in the year. When it happens, my husband always goes out and does a nest check (looking for attendant adults or bodies under the nests) on all the raptor nests he monitors locally, and there's always a sample of young nestlings that presumably either 'cooked' in the nest and were expelled or those that presumably flailed around too much and fell out (or if slightly older attempted to fledge too early).  But presumably lots more nestlings die in those events than we actually see, b/c we usually get a round of nest 'failures' where the adults are suddenly no longer in attendance, which means the nestlings died in the nest from heat or the adults had to leave the nest too often to bathe or drink, and the nestlings were too exposed to the sun or were predated by jays or squirrels or opossums or some such.

Of course, we also get this kind of thing after intense storms (nestlings killed by hail or blown out of nests), but it's not as noticeable.

Here's some typical pics from a couple such recent episodes.

It's depressing.

That's kind of surprising.  You'd think the birds in TX would have adapted given that extreme heat is semi-normal there.

That might be a bit of a misunderstanding of what adaptation means, in a practical applied sense.

First, animals that are evolutionarily adapted to the average conditions of their habitat will nevertheless often die or experience reproductive failure during years, months, weeks, or even days where the conditions fluctuate widely through the range around that average, particularly if the timing is 'bad' (e.g., coincidental nestling/downy age, which typically only lasts a month or so).  For example, if a heat wave happens in early July, it's likely to kill a lot more of this particular raptor species' nestlings than if said heatwave occurs in May (while the birds are nest building) or later in the summer (when the nestlings are feathered out and more mobile).  Likewise, violent thunderstorms involving high winds and sometimes huge hail are normal here during the summer, but they kill native (and thus well-adapted) birds every single year, by blowing nests out of trees or by violent impact with hail.  Animals often don't adapt (in an evolutionary sense) to THAT fine of a scale of stochasticity (isolated incidents of e.g., fires, extreme drought, violent weather, food source failure, disease outbreaks).  Now it is true that, with enough selective pressure on a population over very long periods of time, some species might evolve toleration to e.g., a degree or two more at the upper range of temperatures, if that becomes the norm for this region, but such evolutionary adaptation depends on multiple factors and is not a given. 

Second, many people confuse the layperson's use of the word 'adapt', which means flexibility of behavior/learning that individual animals exhibit/might be capable of, with scientists' use of 'adapt', which means a change in a population's genetic and phenotypic characteristics over time (that is, 'evolution'). Behavioral flexibility can sometimes be one of the factors that influences evolution, but individuals themselves do not adapt or evolve under the scientific definition. So for example, some individual raptors (of the species I noted above) might build nests at sites with slightly worse thermal cover (more open canopies) and thus lose their young in a heat spike, while other individuals build nests in more shaded locations. If a clutch is lost with sufficient time to re-nest, usually the parent birds will build a nest at a new site (indicating at least some level of 'learning' that their old site wasn't suitable for whatever reason) and might be more successful the second time. That isn't evolution or adaptation, though...all the birds in the population are more or less equally 'adapted' to the area. That's just individual variation in behavior, randomness of nest site options available, and luck.

The problem develops when the habitat conditions change, especially if they change rapidly, beyond what animals can adjust to either behaviorally or physiologically, esp if the change occurs at a scale and frequency that impairs reproductive success to the point that the population becomes nonviable in the long term.  The species might not be completely extirpated from the area b/c the basic elements of suitable habitat might still be there (food, cover, nest sites, etc), but the population might no longer be able to self-sustain.

The converse situation can happen too...For example, over the past 20 years as climate change has caused average temps to creep up in the southwest, the formerly desert-limited Harris' hawks have begun showing up far north of their previous range (the range to which they are unquestionably evolutionarily adapted).  They are limited by cold more than heat in the U.S., and as climate change has changed conditions, they've begun occasionally reproducing around our city in northern TX, where they formerly were never found.  It's very possible that they will gradually become a more common breeder here (and also possible they will become less common in the hotter parts of their range as high end temperature increases there) as climate change shifts temp/precipitation norms.

Finally, plenty of species successfully colonize areas that they didn't originally evolve in, and aren't 'adapted to' in an evolutionary sense. Many of the species seen in the cities of the Great Plains would historically not have occurred here at all or in the numbers that they do now unless we had created artificial 'forests' throughout the area, which we did by pumping masses of groundwater from the rapidly depleting Ogallala Aquifer.  Examples of common species in my backyard that would not have historically been common here (that is, they didn't evolve here and wouldn't typically occur here without humans altering the environment) would be blue jays (not enough mast material without oaks/pecans), cardinals (same), wintering geese and cranes (use human sorghum and wheat fields in the winter), gray tree squirrels (few trees on the plains, historically), kestrels (need cavities in mature large trees to nest), Mississippi kites (need tall canopy trees to nest), white-winged doves (strongly associated with human development), house sparrows (ditto), Eurasian collared doves (ditto), great tailed grackles (ditto).  Most of these species appeared on the Great Plains in the 1960s and 1970s, when the trees planted during the founding of the cities began to mature. They would not have viable populations in this region without trees and water provided by humans, b/c they are not well-adapted (evolutionarily) to landscape and conditions outside the cities.

Conversely, species that are well-adapted evolutionarily to the conditions here (e.g., Lesser Prairie-Chickens) are getting in increasing trouble as climate change bumps the regional temps to even just a few degrees hotter, and the ambient humidity a few points lower. Hen chickens have a limited tolerance for high temps, and their eggs have limited tolerance for low humidity.  Hens might tolerate, e.g., 103 F at ground level for a few hours every day at midday during incubation and brooding, but 106 F might cause her to abandon. So while P-Chickens evolved in conditions where heat spikes might have historically occurred every third or fourth year, such conditions were still infrequent enough for reproductive success to sustain the population. But as we've (for example) seen frequency of extreme droughts or extreme heat spikes increase, then years of complete reproductive failure become more common and the Prairie-Chicken eventually might be extirpated (even though they evolved in this area originally).   

Yikes, I didn't mean to write that much. Just got going, and...

« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 04:23:49 PM by wenchsenior »

lhamo

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3131
  • Location: Seattle
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2021, 07:55:54 PM »
I haven't seen a Flicker even though we usually had several a day.

We've still got lots of flickers in Seattle.  We no longer have a bird feeder so I don't see them on our deck as much as we used to, but I hear them several times a day and sometimes see them in the trees.

Chaplin

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1902
  • Location: Le Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2021, 10:10:05 PM »
Yikes, I didn't mean to write that much. Just got going, and...

It was good stuff, no need to apologize. What you're saying is along the lines of my concern, I think. This heat wave was far beyond normal variation. Just because animals sometimes die due to high and low temperature (or winds, or precipitation, etc.) that are in the "normal" range doesn't mean that we can wave off a truly extreme event by saying that some animals have always died even due to normal variations. I don't think there's any question that this event was well outside of normal variation, my question was about whether there was any wider evidence to support our observation of much lower bird activity around our house and what the implications of that might be.

TrMama

  • Guest
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2021, 08:58:49 AM »

dougules

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2899
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2021, 11:43:30 AM »
Finally, plenty of species successfully colonize areas that they didn't originally evolve in, and aren't 'adapted to' in an evolutionary sense. Many of the species seen in the cities of the Great Plains would historically not have occurred here at all or in the numbers that they do now unless we had created artificial 'forests' throughout the area, which we did by pumping masses of groundwater from the rapidly depleting Ogallala Aquifer.  Examples of common species in my backyard that would not have historically been common here (that is, they didn't evolve here and wouldn't typically occur here without humans altering the environment) would be blue jays (not enough mast material without oaks/pecans), cardinals (same), wintering geese and cranes (use human sorghum and wheat fields in the winter), gray tree squirrels (few trees on the plains, historically), kestrels (need cavities in mature large trees to nest), Mississippi kites (need tall canopy trees to nest), white-winged doves (strongly associated with human development), house sparrows (ditto), Eurasian collared doves (ditto), great tailed grackles (ditto).  Most of these species appeared on the Great Plains in the 1960s and 1970s, when the trees planted during the founding of the cities began to mature. They would not have viable populations in this region without trees and water provided by humans, b/c they are not well-adapted (evolutionarily) to landscape and conditions outside the cities.

Conversely, species that are well-adapted evolutionarily to the conditions here (e.g., Lesser Prairie-Chickens) are getting in increasing trouble as climate change bumps the regional temps to even just a few degrees hotter, and the ambient humidity a few points lower. Hen chickens have a limited tolerance for high temps, and their eggs have limited tolerance for low humidity.  Hens might tolerate, e.g., 103 F at ground level for a few hours every day at midday during incubation and brooding, but 106 F might cause her to abandon. So while P-Chickens evolved in conditions where heat spikes might have historically occurred every third or fourth year, such conditions were still infrequent enough for reproductive success to sustain the population. But as we've (for example) seen frequency of extreme droughts or extreme heat spikes increase, then years of complete reproductive failure become more common and the Prairie-Chicken eventually might be extirpated (even though they evolved in this area originally).   

Yikes, I didn't mean to write that much. Just got going, and...

Clearly you are very knowledgeable on the subject. 

Total tangent, but what you're saying makes me think about the fact that coyotes have colonized this area within my lifetime.  Do you think that clearing the dense forests has allowed species from the plains to move east?

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3798
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2021, 10:03:12 AM »
Finally, plenty of species successfully colonize areas that they didn't originally evolve in, and aren't 'adapted to' in an evolutionary sense. Many of the species seen in the cities of the Great Plains would historically not have occurred here at all or in the numbers that they do now unless we had created artificial 'forests' throughout the area, which we did by pumping masses of groundwater from the rapidly depleting Ogallala Aquifer.  Examples of common species in my backyard that would not have historically been common here (that is, they didn't evolve here and wouldn't typically occur here without humans altering the environment) would be blue jays (not enough mast material without oaks/pecans), cardinals (same), wintering geese and cranes (use human sorghum and wheat fields in the winter), gray tree squirrels (few trees on the plains, historically), kestrels (need cavities in mature large trees to nest), Mississippi kites (need tall canopy trees to nest), white-winged doves (strongly associated with human development), house sparrows (ditto), Eurasian collared doves (ditto), great tailed grackles (ditto).  Most of these species appeared on the Great Plains in the 1960s and 1970s, when the trees planted during the founding of the cities began to mature. They would not have viable populations in this region without trees and water provided by humans, b/c they are not well-adapted (evolutionarily) to landscape and conditions outside the cities.

Conversely, species that are well-adapted evolutionarily to the conditions here (e.g., Lesser Prairie-Chickens) are getting in increasing trouble as climate change bumps the regional temps to even just a few degrees hotter, and the ambient humidity a few points lower. Hen chickens have a limited tolerance for high temps, and their eggs have limited tolerance for low humidity.  Hens might tolerate, e.g., 103 F at ground level for a few hours every day at midday during incubation and brooding, but 106 F might cause her to abandon. So while P-Chickens evolved in conditions where heat spikes might have historically occurred every third or fourth year, such conditions were still infrequent enough for reproductive success to sustain the population. But as we've (for example) seen frequency of extreme droughts or extreme heat spikes increase, then years of complete reproductive failure become more common and the Prairie-Chicken eventually might be extirpated (even though they evolved in this area originally).   

Yikes, I didn't mean to write that much. Just got going, and...

Clearly you are very knowledgeable on the subject. 

Total tangent, but what you're saying makes me think about the fact that coyotes have colonized this area within my lifetime.  Do you think that clearing the dense forests has allowed species from the plains to move east?

I don't know much about canids, but this has been studied a lot so there should be a metric ton of papers on it. In general, for sure drastic landscape alterations affect the entire suite of species present. Off the top of my head, I could see deforestation and increased agriculture increasing prey species such as mice, voles, rabbits, and ground squirrels, more suitable for coyotes.  But one interesting thing about canid communities is that the larger species seem to exert negative population pressure on the smaller, both directly through predation (wolves will kill smaller canid species, etc) and through niche competition for prey.  (This is interesting b/c it's actually not super common for predators to 'control' prey numbers, the reverse is more often true).

I suspect a combination of deforestation, changing prey communities, increasing anthropogenic sources of food (garbage, crop remnants that coyotes do well exploiting), and dramatic reduction in wolf numbers via direct persecution opened up niche space for coyotes to fill (which might then in turn reduce fox numbers).

sixwings

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 545
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2021, 10:52:00 AM »
My morning walk with my dog was so silent this morning. Makes me so sad. I really hope the bird populations bounce back quickly.

teen persuasion

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2021, 11:21:41 AM »
Sounds like the birds are having a tough time of it all over.

On the east coast there's a mysterious bird die-off, and it's creeping into our region.  We've been asked to remove bird feeders and bird baths to prevent congregation. 

At least lack of available water is not an issue for them right now - we've had excessive rain this month, especially Saturday (4") and Tuesday (6").

Tuesday's deluge also included up to softball sized hail, which is apparently tied to the smoke particles in the upper atmosphere from the fires out west.  It's amazing just how interconnected everything is.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3576
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2021, 12:19:53 PM »
I also live in Victoria (Oak Bay) and it's definitely real. I always leave the window open at night and I love waking up at 5ish and listen to the birdsong for about 30 mins while I doze before I get up to exercise. That birdsong doesn't exist this year. I'm hoping it's only temporary and bird populations will bounce back. It's really sad. I have a friend who is a birdwatcher and he said that the heatwave caused a massive die off and very few young birds survived it. I would expect that since it hasnt rained since mid-june most of their water sources are gone as well. It makes me really sad.

I actually don't like the birds early in the morning because they like to wake up earlier than I do.   But there are definitely fewer bird songs in the morning for sure. 

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6795
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2021, 10:30:42 AM »
Any chances the animal kingdom is dealing with COVID too? Perhaps a dumb question...

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2021, 10:39:38 AM »
Any chances the animal kingdom is dealing with COVID too? Perhaps a dumb question...

I don't think so.  To date there has been no evidence of a natural source of Covid-19.

It seems like covid can jump from humans to great apes and monkey species relatively easily, so zoos have been very careful about limiting their contact with these species.  Dogs and cats can both catch covid-19 from people too, although they tend not to get sick.

dougules

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2899
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2021, 10:50:02 AM »
Any chances the animal kingdom is dealing with COVID too? Perhaps a dumb question...

I don't think so.  To date there has been no evidence of a natural source of Covid-19.

It seems like covid can jump from humans to great apes and monkey species relatively easily, so zoos have been very careful about limiting their contact with these species.  Dogs and cats can both catch covid-19 from people too, although they tend not to get sick.

I doubt it's related to the lack of birds in the PNW, but in general it seems like with 200M people having gotten COVID that the chances of it having jumped from humans to another animal species somewhere in the world wouldn't be entirely low. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2021, 11:40:20 AM »
Any chances the animal kingdom is dealing with COVID too? Perhaps a dumb question...

I don't think so.  To date there has been no evidence of a natural source of Covid-19.

It seems like covid can jump from humans to great apes and monkey species relatively easily, so zoos have been very careful about limiting their contact with these species.  Dogs and cats can both catch covid-19 from people too, although they tend not to get sick.

I doubt it's related to the lack of birds in the PNW, but in general it seems like with 200M people having gotten COVID that the chances of it having jumped from humans to another animal species somewhere in the world wouldn't be entirely low.

Yep.  It's certainly a possibility.  There's no evidence of it jumping from animals to humans though.

dougules

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2899
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2021, 11:45:30 AM »
Yep.  It's certainly a possibility.  There's no evidence of it jumping from animals to humans though.

I'm assuming you mean from humans to animals and then back again?  It originally came from animals. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2021, 12:01:03 PM »
Yep.  It's certainly a possibility.  There's no evidence of it jumping from animals to humans though.

I'm assuming you mean from humans to animals and then back again?  It originally came from animals. 

That's certainly a possibility, but as of yet there isn't any evidence to support it.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20808
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2021, 12:23:54 PM »
Finally, plenty of species successfully colonize areas that they didn't originally evolve in, and aren't 'adapted to' in an evolutionary sense. Many of the species seen in the cities of the Great Plains would historically not have occurred here at all or in the numbers that they do now unless we had created artificial 'forests' throughout the area, which we did by pumping masses of groundwater from the rapidly depleting Ogallala Aquifer.  Examples of common species in my backyard that would not have historically been common here (that is, they didn't evolve here and wouldn't typically occur here without humans altering the environment) would be blue jays (not enough mast material without oaks/pecans), cardinals (same), wintering geese and cranes (use human sorghum and wheat fields in the winter), gray tree squirrels (few trees on the plains, historically), kestrels (need cavities in mature large trees to nest), Mississippi kites (need tall canopy trees to nest), white-winged doves (strongly associated with human development), house sparrows (ditto), Eurasian collared doves (ditto), great tailed grackles (ditto).  Most of these species appeared on the Great Plains in the 1960s and 1970s, when the trees planted during the founding of the cities began to mature. They would not have viable populations in this region without trees and water provided by humans, b/c they are not well-adapted (evolutionarily) to landscape and conditions outside the cities.

Conversely, species that are well-adapted evolutionarily to the conditions here (e.g., Lesser Prairie-Chickens) are getting in increasing trouble as climate change bumps the regional temps to even just a few degrees hotter, and the ambient humidity a few points lower. Hen chickens have a limited tolerance for high temps, and their eggs have limited tolerance for low humidity.  Hens might tolerate, e.g., 103 F at ground level for a few hours every day at midday during incubation and brooding, but 106 F might cause her to abandon. So while P-Chickens evolved in conditions where heat spikes might have historically occurred every third or fourth year, such conditions were still infrequent enough for reproductive success to sustain the population. But as we've (for example) seen frequency of extreme droughts or extreme heat spikes increase, then years of complete reproductive failure become more common and the Prairie-Chicken eventually might be extirpated (even though they evolved in this area originally).   

Yikes, I didn't mean to write that much. Just got going, and...

Clearly you are very knowledgeable on the subject. 

Total tangent, but what you're saying makes me think about the fact that coyotes have colonized this area within my lifetime.  Do you think that clearing the dense forests has allowed species from the plains to move east?

Clearing the forest has definitely allowed prairie species to move east.  For coyotes there were two factors limiting their spread, the forest and the wolves (wolves kill coyotes).  As forests were cleared and wolves retreated, coyotes had ample opportunity to move east.  Our coyotes (Ontario/Quebec) are larger than prairie coyotes because their diet has expanded to include deer.  They still eat mice, rabbits, cats, etc.

Our other notorious (notorious as in we wish you had stayed home) immigrant is the cowbird.  Cowbirds are nest parasites, they lay their eggs in other birds' nests and leave them for the host pair to rear.  When they followed the buffalo this was a sound strategy, because they could not look after eggs/nestlings without losing their source of food, the insects the buffalo stirred up.   Most prairie birds are good at recognizing the intruder egg and evicting it, and the parents are long gone.  Here cowbirds eat insects stirred up by cattle, and still lay their eggs in songbird nests.  The difference is that they are not following a migratory animal any more, and they can check on their eggs.  If the host parents have removed the cowbird egg or nestling, they generally remove all the eggs/chicks from the nest, forcing the hosts to re-nest, and then the cowbirds just re-lay in the host nest.  We have a major problem because nest parasitism is part of the causes of our dwindling songbird numbers.  The only birds that are safe are those that nest deep in forests.  Unfdortunately the agricultural areas of Ontario/Quebec have mainly woodlots, not deep forests, and the cowbirds can visit most nests.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3798
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2021, 12:30:44 PM »
Well, it's certainly been found in some animals (zoo animals, domestic pets), so it can infect at least some families (all mammalian so far, I believe).  I'm not sure about birds...haven't heard anything re: that, as of yet.

dougules

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2899
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2021, 02:48:44 PM »
That's certainly a possibility, but as of yet there isn't any evidence to support it.

SARS-CoV-2 is closely related to some coronaviruses in bats. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2021, 03:59:07 PM »
That's certainly a possibility, but as of yet there isn't any evidence to support it.

SARS-CoV-2 is closely related to some coronaviruses in bats.

It is.   Natural transmission from animals is by far the most typical way that these types of novel diseases start spreading through human populations.  That's why it's typically the default assumption with this sort of thing.  There's no real evidence to support it at the moment though - just supposition.

Chaplin

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1902
  • Location: Le Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2021, 12:32:18 AM »
Mink are unusually susceptible: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/mink-covid-virus-mutation/

Dogs can get it too, apparently.

sonofsven

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2021, 08:02:32 AM »
Update on the purple martins: I counted eight adults yesterday actively bringing food to the gourds, so a bit of hope for healthy fledgelings.

Chaplin

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1902
  • Location: Le Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2021, 10:01:08 PM »
Update on the purple martins: I counted eight adults yesterday actively bringing food to the gourds, so a bit of hope for healthy fledgelings.

That does sound promising.

We now have a lot of Chickadees to add to the Hummingbirds and Crows, which is great, but still very few other species around.

Poundwise

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2077
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2021, 10:54:49 PM »
That's certainly a possibility, but as of yet there isn't any evidence to support it.

SARS-CoV-2 is closely related to some coronaviruses in bats.

It is.   Natural transmission from animals is by far the most typical way that these types of novel diseases start spreading through human populations.  That's why it's typically the default assumption with this sort of thing.  There's no real evidence to support it at the moment though - just supposition.

"On Wednesday, the US Department of Agriculture released some rather disturbing news: a survey of wild deer populations has found that large numbers of the animals seem to have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The finding indicates that there's a very large population of wild animals in North America that could serve as a reservoir for the virus, even if we were to get its circulation within the human population under control."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/over-half-the-deer-in-michigan-seem-to-have-been-exposed-to-sars-cov-2/

Also ferrets and other mustelids.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/7/21-0096_article

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2021, 10:26:01 AM »
That's certainly a possibility, but as of yet there isn't any evidence to support it.

SARS-CoV-2 is closely related to some coronaviruses in bats.

It is.   Natural transmission from animals is by far the most typical way that these types of novel diseases start spreading through human populations.  That's why it's typically the default assumption with this sort of thing.  There's no real evidence to support it at the moment though - just supposition.

"On Wednesday, the US Department of Agriculture released some rather disturbing news: a survey of wild deer populations has found that large numbers of the animals seem to have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The finding indicates that there's a very large population of wild animals in North America that could serve as a reservoir for the virus, even if we were to get its circulation within the human population under control."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/over-half-the-deer-in-michigan-seem-to-have-been-exposed-to-sars-cov-2/

Also ferrets and other mustelids.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/7/21-0096_article


Yep.  There have been several animals found that accept the covid-19 virus from humans as I mentioned.  There have been none found to be an originating animal.

dougules

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2899
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2021, 10:27:45 AM »
That's certainly a possibility, but as of yet there isn't any evidence to support it.

SARS-CoV-2 is closely related to some coronaviruses in bats.

It is.   Natural transmission from animals is by far the most typical way that these types of novel diseases start spreading through human populations.  That's why it's typically the default assumption with this sort of thing.  There's no real evidence to support it at the moment though - just supposition.

"On Wednesday, the US Department of Agriculture released some rather disturbing news: a survey of wild deer populations has found that large numbers of the animals seem to have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The finding indicates that there's a very large population of wild animals in North America that could serve as a reservoir for the virus, even if we were to get its circulation within the human population under control."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/over-half-the-deer-in-michigan-seem-to-have-been-exposed-to-sars-cov-2/

Also ferrets and other mustelids.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/7/21-0096_article


Yep.  There have been several animals found that accept the covid-19 virus from humans as I mentioned.  There have been none found to be an originating animal.

What exactly are you trying to imply?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2021, 11:04:41 AM »
What exactly are you trying to imply?

I'm not trying to imply anything.  It would be nice to find out the source of the pandemic.

So far there are two theories - one is that the Wuhan lab in China that was experimenting on these viruses leaked them out, and one that the disease occurred naturally in an animal and then transmitted to people.  At the moment there is little evidence for either, although the latter seems most likely from a historical perspective.  There has been significant research done on the latter theory, but only minor/impeded research done on the former.

I'd really like to be able to definitively rule one out.

Jenny Wren

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 753
  • Location: PNW
  • Just another dharma bum
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2021, 12:29:36 PM »
Back on topic: Fewer pollinators seem to be present, I've been having to hand pollinate since the heat dome. Even our fat bumbles seem to be MIA. We stumbled across quite a few dead bees in the days following the heat wave, but they mainly seemed to be honeybees and not our native pollinator buddies. I worked on an Asian hornet monitoring project for the county last summer, so came to recognize our native bees pretty well. I've checked but haven't found anything but anecdotal observances on pollinator loss due to the heat, but I can't help but wonder. Not only was the heat stressful, it prematurely shriveled up a lot of blooms that would normally have continued to provide nectar for some weeks.

lhamo

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3131
  • Location: Seattle
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2021, 01:04:54 PM »
I have TONS of pollinators in my backyard -- many varieties of bees as well as hoverflies, moths and butterflies, and dragonflies (the latter have just shown up recently).  A hummingbird was divebombing my scarlet runner beans last night.  We do live in a very wooded area near the water, on a steep slope facing east so we didn't get the worst of the direct sun during the heat wave (back yard is mostly shaded starting around 3-4pm).  Maybe this was a slightly cooler island that allowed more things to survive?

Jenny Wren

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 753
  • Location: PNW
  • Just another dharma bum
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2021, 01:14:28 PM »
I have TONS of pollinators in my backyard -- many varieties of bees as well as hoverflies, moths and butterflies, and dragonflies (the latter have just shown up recently).  A hummingbird was divebombing my scarlet runner beans last night.  We do live in a very wooded area near the water, on a steep slope facing east so we didn't get the worst of the direct sun during the heat wave (back yard is mostly shaded starting around 3-4pm).  Maybe this was a slightly cooler island that allowed more things to survive?

Good to hear, especially since your temperatures just south of us were so much higher! I'm on the side of a hill facing southwest and surrounded by buildings, so we were pretty thoroughly baked.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6795
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2021, 04:17:07 PM »
Saw three adult turkeys with 7-8 chicks on my bike ride this evening.

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Location: Coolest Neighborhood on Earth, They Say
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: "Silent Summer" in the PNW
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2021, 01:14:11 PM »
Saw three adult turkeys with 7-8 chicks on my bike ride this evening.

Yay!

In all the species, I hope enough individuals survived for the population to bounce back.