You don't *really* need that smartphone, do you?

[js82]

Originally linked to me by my wife, who is notoriously frugal when it comes to upgrading her tech:

(For those who aren't interested in reading the whole article: $1000 not spent on a phone, compounded over 30 years adds up to a lot, which you probably already know if you're on these forums)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/technology/personaltech/iphone-upgrades-cost.html

[scantee]

This is why I don’t spend any money on anything. I personally recommend saving 100% of your lifetime income.

In all seriousness, this article is pretty silly to focus so much on phones. Over the last two decades there are three categories of expenses that have risen dramatically: housing, healthcare, and education.  The relative cost of electronics is actually down over that same period. But I think people focus on consumer items like phones because they seem flashy and an easy fix whereas addressing the rapid rise in the three categories I mention above is too complex to grapple with in terms of solutions.

[js82]

This is why I don’t spend any money on anything. I personally recommend saving 100% of your lifetime income.

In all seriousness, this article is pretty silly to focus so much on phones. Over the last two decades there are three categories of expenses that have risen dramatically: housing, healthcare, and education.  The relative cost of electronics is actually down over that same period. But I think people focus on consumer items like phones because they seem flashy and an easy fix whereas addressing the rapid rise in the three categories I mention above is too complex to grapple with in terms of solutions.

I don't know that the intent of the discussion was really to focus so much on phones as it was to pose the question of whether spending $1000 today on the latest consumer item is worth $17k (or maybe $10k, if you take a more conservative estimate of investment returns) 30 years from now.

And, to the article's credit, it does cite some alternative perspectives:

Doug Boneparth, the president of Bone Fide Wealth, made a counterpoint. For people who have plenty of cash and are aware of the impacts of their spending, splurging on new phones could be inconsequential to their overall savings goals compared with bigger expenses like housing

The larger point of the power of compound interest when one defers expenses, remains.

[TheFrenchCat]

This is why I don’t spend any money on anything. I personally recommend saving 100% of your lifetime income.

In all seriousness, this article is pretty silly to focus so much on phones. Over the last two decades there are three categories of expenses that have risen dramatically: housing, healthcare, and education.  The relative cost of electronics is actually down over that same period. But I think people focus on consumer items like phones because they seem flashy and an easy fix whereas addressing the rapid rise in the three categories I mention above is too complex to grapple with in terms of solutions.

I don't know that the intent of the discussion was really to focus so much on phones as it was to pose the question of whether spending $1000 today on the latest consumer item is worth $17k (or maybe $10k, if you take a more conservative estimate of investment returns) 30 years from now.

And, to the article's credit, it does cite some alternative perspectives:

Doug Boneparth, the president of Bone Fide Wealth, made a counterpoint. For people who have plenty of cash and are aware of the impacts of their spending, splurging on new phones could be inconsequential to their overall savings goals compared with bigger expenses like housing

The larger point of the power of compound interest when one defers expenses, remains.

I think it's definitely worth thinking about whether or not buying the latest upgrade or being an early adopter is worth it.  For  people like me, I wouldn't get any more value from a $1k phone versus my $20 Walmart smartphone.  Mine does what I need it to do and so far has lasted about 5 years.  This is especially true given that I'm still working towards other, more important, savings goals. 

On the flip side, my grandfather, who's been retired since he was 55, loves tech and gets a lot of value out of being an early adopter.  He won't get the flashy Iphone just because it's flashy, but he loves trying out new technology and always has.  But he and my grandmother worked to save in other areas to allow for their hobbies as well as retiring a bit early, and helping out their kids and grandkids.  I'm very lucky that I grew up close to people who had a good balance between frugality and enjoying life. 

[Villanelle]

This is why I don’t spend any money on anything. I personally recommend saving 100% of your lifetime income.

In all seriousness, this article is pretty silly to focus so much on phones. Over the last two decades there are three categories of expenses that have risen dramatically: housing, healthcare, and education.  The relative cost of electronics is actually down over that same period. But I think people focus on consumer items like phones because they seem flashy and an easy fix whereas addressing the rapid rise in the three categories I mention above is too complex to grapple with in terms of solutions.

Because focusing on things directly within out sphere of influence allows us to quickly make changes?  Your post is don different than the argument that people don't get into debt because they buy a latte every day.  And that's technically correct in most cases.  But the lattes, and the smartphone, and the car with bad gas mileage, and the long commute, and the new car every few years, and paying for car washes... and suddenly, that is exactly what someone is in debt.  Generally when people dismiss that sort of thing, it's because they are more comfortable feeling like they are helpless victims of an unstoppable system that is rigged against them, than they are carefully examining their own expenses and making changes that can feel uncomfortable.

So of course there is value in examining expenses like this.  Maybe the smartphone is a decent expense for some people, but certainly for many--perhaps most--it's another place to eek out some savings. 

[dcheesi]

I wind up buying a new phone every few years --because I'm clumsy, and/or the charging port has worn out. Then I buy another low-mid grade phone from my MVNO carrier (usually a Samsung A or J series), and proceed from there.

Now, if someone could *guarantee* that a $1000 phone would last ten years or more, I might do it just to cut down on my e-waste footprint. But then I'd probably drop it again, or something...

[GuitarStv]

I only got rid of my rotary phone when our company started charging me extra for pulse dialing.  When cellphones become cheaper than our home phone I suppose I'll have to look at trying one out.  :P

[Valley of Plenty]

I bought the 2020 iPhone SE when I switched from Verizon to Xfinity Mobile at the start of this year. It's marketed as a budget phone, with a price of $300. It is visually identical to the iPhone 8, which is the phone I had before. So I didn't even need to buy a new case, just swapped the case off my old phone. It's got all the fancy bells and whistles like fingerprint recognition, wireless charging, etc, but cost about 1/4 of whatever the latest iPhone on the market was. I expect it will probably last me another couple years at least. $100/year for a pocket sized supercomputer seems reasonable to me. :)

On a related note, Xfinity Mobile only costs $12 per gig of data used, and most months I'm able to keep it under 1GB. A lot better than the $60 a month I was paying before with Verizon.

[charis]

I buy a $150 Motorola smart phone every 2-3 years and pay maybe $21/month on mint mobile for 10GB. I would never consider not getting a smart phone at rate. Maybe I don't "need" it but I don't have wifi access during the weekday so I do a lot of necessary tasks on my smart phone.

[moof]

A counter argument is that it is a special sickness that leads you to frame every purchase in terms of future buying power.  Overly depriving yourself now is not healthy.  Everyone with means should have a small “fun” budget category that can be spent without guilt or regret.  Of course many folks with the latest iphones have no budget or retirement plans figured at at all, which is likely the intended audience rather than this crowd.

[sonofsven]

I wind up buying a new phone every few years --because I'm clumsy, and/or the charging port has worn out. Then I buy another low-mid grade phone from my MVNO carrier (usually a Samsung A or J series), and proceed from there.

Now, if someone could *guarantee* that a $1000 phone would last ten years or more, I might do it just to cut down on my e-waste footprint. But then I'd probably drop it again, or something...

My charging port just wore out last night and now I'm looking at a new phone, and I like my current phone (moto g power).
When I go on republic and look at the budget phones they're still more than I want to pay!

[innkeeper77]

I wind up buying a new phone every few years --because I'm clumsy, and/or the charging port has worn out. Then I buy another low-mid grade phone from my MVNO carrier (usually a Samsung A or J series), and proceed from there.

Now, if someone could *guarantee* that a $1000 phone would last ten years or more, I might do it just to cut down on my e-waste footprint. But then I'd probably drop it again, or something...

I personally use apple because they last longer- but 10 years is HIGHLY unlikely. Google supports their phones for 3 years, apple is closer to 6 years. (I refuse to use a smartphone that is no longer ecieving security updates because security updates are important) - eg, a pixel 2 today, last sold in 2019, is totally unsupported and therefore insecure, even when using custom ROMS. iPhones from 2016 are still officially on the latest software, and SOME security updates are given to their older phones. (I’m fairly sure this is the real reason they hold their value so much better- buying a 3 year old iPhone gives you the same supported lifetime as a brand new android in many cases)

If only apple wasn’t so anti right to repair and anti competitive when talking about mvnos etc, I’d say they would be a good option. As it is now, I use them as a best of bad options when it comes to reducing e waste.

[Valley of Plenty]

A counter argument is that it is a special sickness that leads you to frame every purchase in terms of future buying power.  Overly depriving yourself now is not healthy.  Everyone with means should have a small “fun” budget category that can be spent without guilt or regret.  Of course many folks with the latest iphones have no budget or retirement plans figured at at all, which is likely the intended audience rather than this crowd.

Your point is valid, but *very* often misused to justify wasteful spending. It comes very close to supporting the notion that not spending money is inherently deprivation, and true happiness requires spending money on "fun". The fact of the matter is that many people think this way, and convince themselves that not spending money to "treat themselves" would be depriving themselves of happiness. It has been my experience and observation that people who spend more money are not happier as a result. I spend less than almost everyone I interact with on a regular basis, yet none of them seem to be particularly happy with their lives.

Spending money can yield happiness, yes, but there are usually ways to obtain happiness and fulfillment without having to make room in your budget for it.

MMM has an article explaining this in more detail and more eloquently than I can. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/

[dang1]

$1000 for a phone is crazy. Phone makers' outrageous marketing is just full-on bs. These days, year-old last generation, even older, phones are still plenty capable for most uses.

Last new phone I got was a Samsung Galaxy Nexus- back in 2012. Then I realized I don't have to have new flagships. Since then, all my phones- all Androids, mostly Samsung Galaxy S phones, I've bought used, through eBay. They've all pretty much worked out fine. My current main phone is an S9 Plus- bought used in 2019. Still very happy with it, still going strong, current monthly average use: 80 GB data. Also, I suppose I'm pretty hard on my phones, so no point in getting new- only to be banged up soon after purchase.  Also, seems like new phones have alot of bugs when first released, that eventually gets all sorted out by the time a newer model comes out a year later, lol

[former player]

I'm less concerned about the cost of the phone which is once every few years (although $1k is probably too much for something that is so easily bashed around or dropped in the loo) but that there are a lot of people paying that much each year on service charges.  It's the recurring costs like that (or housing, or lattes, or interest payments) that are likely to be the real budget killers over time rather than capital expenditures.

[DadJokes]

A counter argument is that it is a special sickness that leads you to frame every purchase in terms of future buying power.  Overly depriving yourself now is not healthy.  Everyone with means should have a small “fun” budget category that can be spent without guilt or regret.  Of course many folks with the latest iphones have no budget or retirement plans figured at at all, which is likely the intended audience rather than this crowd.

When I'm doing a good job of flexing my frugality muscles, I weigh the opportunity cost of purchases. In many cases, I still choose the purchase now over more money later.

Would I rather play some rec sportsball this season or be a couple more days closer to FI? Easy decision.
Would I rather have this fancy motorcycle or be four months closer to FI? Less easy, but I still made the purchase.

[FLBiker]

I only got rid of my rotary phone when our company started charging me extra for pulse dialing.  When cellphones become cheaper than our home phone I suppose I'll have to look at trying one out.  :P

What about two factor authentication?  I didn't have a smart phone until my mom died and I got her old one.  I've since replaced it with a $100 Moto, but I toy with getting rid of it.  The thing that feels inescapable is two factor authentication for both work and finance.  Is there another way to do this?

[GuitarStv]

I only got rid of my rotary phone when our company started charging me extra for pulse dialing.  When cellphones become cheaper than our home phone I suppose I'll have to look at trying one out.  :P

What about two factor authentication?  I didn't have a smart phone until my mom died and I got her old one.  I've since replaced it with a $100 Moto, but I toy with getting rid of it.  The thing that feels inescapable is two factor authentication for both work and finance.  Is there another way to do this?

I do finance at home, where there's a VOIP phone plugged into the wall which works fine for two factor authentication.  At work, I requested a keyfob security thing since I didn't have a cellphone that they could text stuff to (I suppose I'd have taken a company cell phone if this was unavailable).

[Metalcat]

$1000 for a phone is crazy. Phone makers' outrageous marketing is just full-on bs. These days, year-old last generation, even older, phones are still plenty capable for most uses.

Last new phone I got was a Samsung Galaxy Nexus- back in 2012. Then I realized I don't have to have new flagships. Since then, all my phones- all Androids, mostly Samsung Galaxy S phones, I've bought used, through eBay. They've all pretty much worked out fine. My current main phone is an S9 Plus- bought used in 2019. Still very happy with it, still going strong, current monthly average use: 80 GB data. Also, I suppose I'm pretty hard on my phones, so no point in getting new- only to be banged up soon after purchase.  Also, seems like new phones have alot of bugs when first released, that eventually gets all sorted out by the time a newer model comes out a year later, lol

I usually get cheaper, older model phones and use them until they get too glitchy to function. I once got a brand new, top of the line phone...it was basically the same as the older, cheaper phones and didn't last any longer before becoming unusable.

So I stick with old, cheap phones. My current Nokia is great, but I have serious envy of DH's cheaper Motorola, which has a battery life that lasts foooooooorever.

[FLBiker]

I only got rid of my rotary phone when our company started charging me extra for pulse dialing.  When cellphones become cheaper than our home phone I suppose I'll have to look at trying one out.  :P

What about two factor authentication?  I didn't have a smart phone until my mom died and I got her old one.  I've since replaced it with a $100 Moto, but I toy with getting rid of it.  The thing that feels inescapable is two factor authentication for both work and finance.  Is there another way to do this?

I do finance at home, where there's a VOIP phone plugged into the wall which works fine for two factor authentication.  At work, I requested a keyfob security thing since I didn't have a cellphone that they could text stuff to (I suppose I'd have taken a company cell phone if this was unavailable).

Interesting -- I always do finance (and work) stuff from home as well, so VOIP could work for me.  I do have to travel for work sometimes, though, and still have to do 2FA to get into our systems.  I have a work phone I can use for that, but I love the idea of being totally without phone.  May have to wait until retirement...

[LetsRetireYoung]

For us Mustachians, having the latest-model iPhone may seem like profligate wasteful spending. However, if you work in sales, or in a highly competitive shallow industry (marketing? fashion?), that could be a status symbol that shows off your wealth (or a high credit card limit) and being cool and unique (by having a pink phone made by modern-day slaves in factories with suicide nets). After all, people even bought the Apple-branded microfiber cloth that cost ~$20. :P (No, really, they did. Cultists gonna cult.)

Aaaanyway. :) Under certain, very specific conditions, it's not inconeivable that buying an overpriced phone every single year could actually help you get more sales, or a higher raise, or a better salary offer. Nothing is black and white. (Even iPhones come in pink now, apparently. :P )

[DadJokes]

For us Mustachians, having the latest-model iPhone may seem like profligate wasteful spending. However, if you work in sales, or in a highly competitive shallow industry (marketing? fashion?), that could be a status symbol that shows off your wealth (or a high credit card limit) and being cool and unique (by having a pink phone made by modern-day slaves in factories with suicide nets). After all, people even bought the Apple-branded microfiber cloth that cost ~$20. :P (No, really, they did. Cultists gonna cult.)

Aaaanyway. :) Under certain, very specific conditions, it's not inconeivable that buying an overpriced phone every single year could actually help you get more sales, or a higher raise, or a better salary offer. Nothing is black and white. (Even iPhones come in pink now, apparently. :P )

Making more money shouldn't always be the goal, especially if it comes at the price of consuming more.

And personally, I've found it's best not to care what others think of me.

[Valley of Plenty]

Making more money shouldn't always be the goal, especially if it comes at the price of consuming more.

And personally, I've found it's best not to care what others think of me.

/thread

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I'm a more relative newcomer to the forum compared to many regulars, but seeing threads like this brings to light things they've said about how the forum has changed. Dang we've gone soft.....

[BlueMR2]

Ended up with a Smartphone due to lack of availability of regular phones...  Loved my old candy bar phone, but it was 3g and the 3g service in my area has gone pretty spotty.  While vendors still list candy bar and flip style phones, they're all out of stock.  So, had to spend $40 for a Smartphone...  Funny thing is that this cheap smartphone is better than my couple year old flagship model work phone.  Technology moves fast.