What is Upper Class? Statistical Analysis by the Brookings Institution.

[FIREby35]

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/social-mobility-memos/posts/2015/09/03-separation-upper-middle-class-reeves

[nobodyspecial]

Interesting that US class is purely income. And that everyone describes themselves as middle class
Son of a coal miner gets a developer job at Google and earns $150k is upper class.

In the UK it's a lot more subtle and complicated.
This son of a coal miner making $100k+ as a programmer remains working class but a non-tenured lecturer on $40k would be middle class.

[Cathy]

These income-based class analyses don't make a lot of sense for reasons we've discussed in many past threads. Let's suppose that for the last 10 years you've earned $500,000 per year and saved most of it. Then you retire and your income drops to zero. Are you now low class? Or consider the reverse, where you've earned $20,000 per year your entire life, but then happen to earn $300,000 one year, perhaps from a personal injury settlement. Are you now upper class?

I think a more useful classification scheme for socioeconomic research would be based on asset level, but not necessarily the person's actual asset level. Instead, it might consider the asset level that the person would have if they had lived frugally for their entire live, which I'll term "imputed asset level". In practice, we would use a proxy for this value, probably based on the person's age, lifelong income history, education, and other factors, all questions that could be asked on surveys and plugged into a heuristic formula to approximate the person's imputed asset level. I have never seen any research that used this approach to date.

Once some data was collected on the distribution of approximate imputed asset levels in the public at large, I speculate that the class bands would fall roughly into these four broad groups:

• Lower class: Imputed asset level is close to zero. Person is totally dependent on a job or other source of income (such as government programs).
• Middle class: Sufficiently high imputed asset level to live without income for maybe 5-10 years, but not forever.
• Upper middle class: Sufficient imputed asset level that the person never has to work again, but only if they maintain a modest lifestyle.
• Upper class: Wildly extravagant imputed asset level, such that the person can do pretty much anything without money as a barrier, such as constructing space shuttles, building hospitals, casually donating $20 million to a university here and there to create scholarships, etc.

The exact thresholds would have to be obtained from data, but overall this system would be far more useful than the current approach of pretending that current income level solely defines "class". If the current income is sufficiently high, like say $500,000 per year, that pretty much guarantees an imputed asset level above "lower class", so current income level is certainly related to class, but it doesn't define it alone.

[vern]

nobodyspecial, check out Paul Fussell's wonderful book 'Class' for a guide through the American class system.

He mentions how difficult it is for someone from the UK to figure out.

[nobodyspecial]

Thank you - I like his distinctions :

Top Out of Sight - Billionaires and multi-millionaires. The people so wealthy they can afford exclusive levels of privacy. We never hear about them because they don't want us to.

Upper Class - Millionaires, inherited wealth. Those who don't have to work. They refer to tuxes as "dinner jackets."

Upper Middle - Wealthy surgeons and lawyers, etc. Professionals who couldn't be described as middle class. I suspect this is the class to which I, an engineer, am supposed to aspire.

Middle Class - The great American majority, sort of.

High Proletarian (or "prole") - Skilled workers but manual labor. Electricians, plumbers, etc. Probably not familiar with the term "proletarian."

Middle Prole - Unskilled manual labor. Waitresses, painters. (In other words, my mom and dad!)

Low Prole - Non-skilled of a lower level than mid prole. I suspect these people ask "Would you like fries with that, sir?" as a career.

Destitute - Working and non-working poor.

Bottom Out of Sight - Street people, the most destitute in society. "Out of sight" because they have no voice, influence or voter impact. (They don't vote.)

[vern]

He also had a test to determine someone's class by observing their living room that I really got a kick out of!

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/010/livingroomscale.html

[Rural]

He also had a test to determine someone's class by observing their living room that I really got a kick out of!

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/010/livingroomscale.html

Scored a 9. I don't think it plays well with minimalism or frugality, and I bet those upper class enough to be truly eccentric wouldn't score well, either.
(Who has shag carpet now?)

[justajane]

He also had a test to determine someone's class by observing their living room that I really got a kick out of!

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/010/livingroomscale.html

Scored a 9. I don't think it plays well with minimalism or frugality, and I bet those upper class enough to be truly eccentric wouldn't score well, either.
(Who has shag carpet now?)

What about displaying game or hunting "trophies"? I can imagine that would confuse the results. There's someone down the block whose entire tiny living room is covered in deer heads and other hunting paraphernalia. These people are decidedly not upper class. But if you had a wealthy hunter....I guess he would put it in his den rather than the living room. 

[infogoon]

nobodyspecial, check out Paul Fussell's wonderful book 'Class' for a guide through the American class system.

He mentions how difficult it is for someone from the UK to figure out.

One of my favorite tidbits from that book, that I think of often -- the higher someone's social class is, the more different articles of clothing they wear at the same time (neckties, scarves, ascots, etc.)

[iris lily]

He also had a test to determine someone's class by observing their living room that I really got a kick out of!

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/010/livingroomscale.html

Oh I remember this, it's fascinating. But of course can be argued as wrong or irrelevant. I think it may be fairly accurate for certain enclaves on the east coast. But I still like reading this list.

My own living room came out with a point score of 26. But the only obvious prole marker is our tv in the living room, a no-no. I have no threadbare oriental rugs because my dogs would just pee on them, but even if I added points for the imaginary threadbare ones I'd have if I could, it still doesn't get me up into middle class territory.

[pachnik]

Yikes, I did the living room survey thing and came out with a -3.   But we are looking for some art work for above the sofa - just haven't found anything yet.   That might bring our living room score up to a +1.  :)

I feel a little embarrassed posting this but here goes.

[Rural]

Yikes, I did the living room survey thing and came out with a -3.   But we are looking for some art work for above the sofa - just haven't found anything yet.   That might bring our living room score up to a +1.  :)

I feel a little embarrassed posting this but here goes.

Don't be embarrassed. The whole point of this site is to have the money to set your world up the way you want it to be, not the way somebody else says it should be.

[bacchi]

He also had a test to determine someone's class by observing their living room that I really got a kick out of!

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/010/livingroomscale.html

Oh I remember this, it's fascinating. But of course can be argued as wrong or irrelevant. I think it may be fairly accurate for certain enclaves on the east coast. But I still like reading this list.

It's definitely from an upper east "old" money viewpoint (or those ascribing to be old money).

[Kashmani]

My favourite definition is as follows:

1. The working class discusses people.
2. The middle class discusses things.
3. The upper class discusses ideas.

[justajane]

My favourite definition is as follows:

1. The working class discusses people.
2. The middle class discusses things.
3. The upper class discusses ideas.

Because people at the country club are clearly talking about Kierkegaard and not who is shtupping who.

[Jakejake]

Yikes, I did the living room survey thing and came out with a -3.   But we are looking for some art work for above the sofa - just haven't found anything yet.   That might bring our living room score up to a +1.  :)

I feel a little embarrassed posting this but here goes.

I came out with a negative number, than realized you're supposed to start at 100, not zero. Maybe you did that? (Or maybe I need an extra deduction for not being able to read directions!)

[Kashmani]

My favourite definition is as follows:

1. The working class discusses people.
2. The middle class discusses things.
3. The upper class discusses ideas.

Because people at the country club are clearly talking about Kierkegaard and not who is shtupping who.

What's wrong with discussing the idea of shtupping?

In all seriousness, isn't a country club the ultimate upper middle class pursuit, and not an upper class pursuit?

[pachnik]

Yikes, I did the living room survey thing and came out with a -3.   But we are looking for some art work for above the sofa - just haven't found anything yet.   That might bring our living room score up to a +1.  :)

I feel a little embarrassed posting this but here goes.

I came out with a negative number, than realized you're supposed to start at 100, not zero. Maybe you did that? (Or maybe I need an extra deduction for not being able to read directions!)

Oh, thanks!  i guess I didn't read the directions properly.  Okay, did it properly and came out at 97 - working class.  That sounds about right. 
Cheers!
Pachnik

[justajane]

My favourite definition is as follows:

1. The working class discusses people.
2. The middle class discusses things.
3. The upper class discusses ideas.

Because people at the country club are clearly talking about Kierkegaard and not who is shtupping who.

What's wrong with discussing the idea of shtupping?

In all seriousness, isn't a country club the ultimate upper middle class pursuit, and not an upper class pursuit?

It probably depends on the country club. There's one in my city that is extremely exclusive. I believe you have to pay 50K just to be considered plus a yearly fee of 10K. Membership is only via referrals. I know someone who is a member, and her husband was the former CEO of a major pharmaceutical company. When he retired, he received 20 million in stocks and a 14 million retirement package. If they are not upper class, you must have a pretty narrow definition of who constitutes the upper class.

I went to another country club once with a brain surgeon whose house was so big he had an elevator in it. Is he middle class?

But, yes, the lower tiered social clubs are probably more for the upper middle class.

[clarkfan1979]

I agree with the most recent comment in the comments section of the article about the presentation of the top 20%. If you include the top 1% within the top 20%, there is going to be a distorted presentation of the data. The author even acknowledged the power of the 1% in the article, so it surprised m that they didn't try to remove them from the analysis. The article should be focusing on the 80th percentile as the "top 20%" The income for this group is probably half of 185K.

My dad often made close to 100K as a union construction worker, but this required crazy overtime (60 hours). I think this is much different than someone making 100K in sales and have large spending accounts to entertain clients. When they hit their sales quotas they get bonuses that gets them around 100K, free trips and lots of other perks. When a construction worker hits 100K, they get a sore back.

[Rural]

Yikes, I did the living room survey thing and came out with a -3.   But we are looking for some art work for above the sofa - just haven't found anything yet.   That might bring our living room score up to a +1.  :)

I feel a little embarrassed posting this but here goes.

I came out with a negative number, than realized you're supposed to start at 100, not zero. Maybe you did that? (Or maybe I need an extra deduction for not being able to read directions!)

Oh, thanks!  i guess I didn't read the directions properly.  Okay, did it properly and came out at 97 - working class.  That sounds about right. 
Cheers!
Pachnik

Dang. I didn't read the directions either. 109 here, except I just noticed the points for items with words in ancient or modern foreign languages and specific references to the UK. I have a bookcase, about 7' by 14', that would probably put us over 200 if I were to consider individual books. But it doesn't belong in the living room! How do I calculate when the issue is that my husband has not yet finished building out the library? :)


Wait. Do I get to be automatically upper class once I have a library in my house? Marx would call me intelligentsia instead...

[Zamboni]

Meh, I like the living room thing, but it seemed very dated. I agree it's very provincially biased towards New England. Ie this is what an upper class home in England and New England might have had back in the day; the rest of the world, not so much.

Did make me laugh thinking about my ex-MIL with her metallic threads, plastic covered furniture, lack of books, Thomas Kinkade "limited edition" prints, and "collections." She has great taste; just ask her and she'll tell you. She'll tell you if you're with her long enough even if you never ask.

My living room came out at 130. hmmm. My goal is to get the score to go down through minimalism and modernism. First I have to get family to come take this furniture (because I'm not allowed to sell it, that goes without saying.)

[Rural]

Yikes, I did the living room survey thing and came out with a -3.   But we are looking for some art work for above the sofa - just haven't found anything yet.   That might bring our living room score up to a +1.  :)

I feel a little embarrassed posting this but here goes.

I came out with a negative number, than realized you're supposed to start at 100, not zero. Maybe you did that? (Or maybe I need an extra deduction for not being able to read directions!)

Oh, thanks!  i guess I didn't read the directions properly.  Okay, did it properly and came out at 97 - working class.  That sounds about right. 
Cheers!
Pachnik

Dang. I didn't read the directions either. 109 here, except I just noticed the points for items with words in ancient or modern foreign languages and specific references to the UK. I have a bookcase, about 7' by 14', that would probably put us over 200 if I were to consider individual books. But it doesn't belong in the living room! How do I calculate when the issue is that my husband has not yet finished building out the library? :)


Wait. Do I get to be automatically upper class once I have a library in my house? Marx would call me intelligentsia instead...

You're a professor, right? Fussell would put someone like you in his Category X. You're a weird mish mash. University faculty points to upper middle, but building your own house in the sticks is proleish in the extreme. You should get the book; you'd like it.

You're right on all counts, there, and weird mishmash is pretty much the story of my life. I've ordered the book through ILL. :)

[iris lily]

I went to another country club once with a brain surgeon whose house was so big he had an elevator in it. Is he middle class?

But, yes, the lower tiered social clubs are probably more for the upper middle class.

There are several elevators here in Lafayette Square. While the houses are big, they aren't huge. It's more for people who have decided they will live in these old victorians forever and into their old age, and put in the elevator while they are renovating (have the walls opened up.) They are middle class, or perhaps upper middle.

[nobodyspecial]

What if you put in a firehouse pole?

[iris lily]

Wiat, we start with 100? Oh ok then, that puts me square into the middle class where I belong, especially when I see points for live potted plants. DH is a fiend for his palm tree.

Our windows are terrifically prole, though. I didn't realize that, I find clean, unadorned windows with no drapery to be crisp and clean which I find soothing, but I will confess that we have plastic blinds. 

[justajane]

I went to another country club once with a brain surgeon whose house was so big he had an elevator in it. Is he middle class?

But, yes, the lower tiered social clubs are probably more for the upper middle class.

There are several elevators here in Lafayette Square. While the houses are big, they aren't huge. It's more for people who have decided they will live in these old victorians forever and into their old age, and put in the elevator while they are renovating (have the walls opened up.) They are middle class, or perhaps upper middle.

This is a home with an elevator in Clayton. But, yes, point taken that an elevator isn't necessarily a sign of extreme wealth. I'm guessing a long term neurosurgeon at a top-tier hospital more likely led me to conclude that about him.

Speaking of elevators, I've always wanted to go in one of those mansions on Lindell by Forest Park. I've heard many of those have old-school elevators, probably original to the home.

[bacchi]

Our windows are terrifically prole, though. I didn't realize that, I find clean, unadorned windows with no drapery to be crisp and clean which I find soothing, but I will confess that we have plastic blinds.

We have paper blinds in the living room. That must be about -10 points? :)

[pbkmaine]

Hmm. Vertical blinds and laminate floors but a ton of books in various languages and old furniture. So we are Upper Middle Class!

[iris lily]

...
You're a professor, right? Fussell would put someone like you in his Category X. You're a weird mish mash. University faculty points to upper middle, but building your own house in the sticks is proleish in the extreme. You should get the book; you'd like it.

points off if it's a land grant college.  :)

[Ambergris]

nobodyspecial, check out Paul Fussell's wonderful book 'Class' for a guide through the American class system.

He mentions how difficult it is for someone from the UK to figure out.

OMGOMGOMG...picked up a copy and that's a wonderful book, for being hilarious and sad and ludicrously personal all at the same time.

BTW: by his definition, virtually everyone on MMM is X just by virtue of what you are doing: consciously rejecting class status markers and seeking your own happiness. Of course, class X is the class Fussell invented for himself...

I am really, really happy that Paul Fussell thinks I don't care about what other people think.

[Rural]

...
You're a professor, right? Fussell would put someone like you in his Category X. You're a weird mish mash. University faculty points to upper middle, but building your own house in the sticks is proleish in the extreme. You should get the book; you'd like it.

points off if it's a land grant college.  :)

Heh. Not that fancy, but it's public. Probably means more points off. Plus I'm not trying to move somewhere "better," so maybe I can just get my shag carpet back out and be done with it. ;)


Hey,do bare concrete floors count as "stone"? I could grub a few more points that way.


I shall embrace my Xishness.

[MBot]

My favourite definition is as follows:

1. The working class discusses people.
2. The middle class discusses things.
3. The upper class discusses ideas.

This is the first time I've heard it applied to class. I always hear some variation on the "small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, great minds discuss ideas" meme?

[solon]

I am really, really happy that Paul Fussell thinks I don't care about what other people think.

mind = blown

[iris lily]

My favourite definition is as follows:

1. The working class discusses people.
2. The middle class discusses things.
3. The upper class discusses ideas.

Because people at the country club are clearly talking about Kierkegaard and not who is shtupping who.

What's wrong with discussing the idea of shtupping?

In all seriousness, isn't a country club the ultimate upper middle class pursuit, and not an upper class pursuit?

Depends on the club. They have been, traditionally, stratified in my town.

I love it when one of the organizations to which I belong are invited by an old scion to have dinner at the olde club. I've seen the Raquet club and some other small rustic one this way. I have no desire to join but had fun poking around the old building, fascinating as a representation of time gone by.

 

[Squirrel away]

Working class according to the living room test.

[makincaid]

Someone should have warned me that learning to do my own oil painting would drop me from the middle class to the working class. I should have just stuck with my old thrift shop paintings.

[I'm a red panda]

Someone should have warned me that learning to do my own oil painting would drop me from the middle class to the working class. I should have just stuck with my old thrift shop paintings.

Husband's photograph did the same for us.  Even though other people have paid him a great deal for those same photographs.  The idea that I'm working class is kind of laughable. Both my salary and the way I was raised, and in some, but not all ways, the way I live (multiple international vacations a year?) puts me pretty firmly upper middle class.  The idea that I have no decorating sense is good though- if the test was for that, I would accept the low score- although some of the things that get you points sound pretty terrible to me. Sterling silver framed portraits, ugh.


It's a dumb test though.  Most of the multi-millionaires (which I am not) I know would have scored about the same as me; putting them working class.  I guess they forgot to ask "do you have a yacht in the marina" (I don't... they do) or "do you pay upwards of $100k a year for your club membership".

[kite]

He also had a test to determine someone's class by observing their living room that I really got a kick out of!

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/010/livingroomscale.html

Hysterical! 

How many points do I add for a Nascar lap blanket on the barcolounger or the crocheted afghan on the sofa?

What about:
Police scanner -4
Inflatable Holiday Decorations -11
Satellite dish -6
Pit bull -5
Chihuahua -9
Welsh Corgi +5

This is getting me in the mood for some Antsy McClain....

[Squirrel away]

Someone should have warned me that learning to do my own oil painting would drop me from the middle class to the working class. I should have just stuck with my old thrift shop paintings.

Husband's photograph did the same for us.  Even though other people have paid him a great deal for those same photographs.  The idea that I'm working class is kind of laughable. Both my salary and the way I was raised, and in some, but not all ways, the way I live (multiple international vacations a year?) puts me pretty firmly upper middle class.  The idea that I have no decorating sense is good though- if the test was for that, I would accept the low score- although some of the things that get you points sound pretty terrible to me. Sterling silver framed portraits, ugh.


It's a dumb test though.  Most of the multi-millionaires (which I am not) I know would have scored about the same as me; putting them working class.  I guess they forgot to ask "do you have a yacht in the marina" (I don't... they do) or "do you pay upwards of $100k a year for your club membership".

Agreed. :P

[kite]

Someone should have warned me that learning to do my own oil painting would drop me from the middle class to the working class. I should have just stuck with my old thrift shop paintings.

Are they paint-by-numbers of clowns?

ETA:  I'm not at all trying for a living room that could entertain Thurston Howell.  Skipper & Gilligan are more my type.  Hang your artwork with pride. 

[Mississippi Mudstache]

Ha. My score was an 88. Judging from much of what would have given me additional points, I don't think I would enjoy living in an upper-class home. 8 points for Hudson Review? 4 points for a grand piano? 8 points for a threadbare rug? No thanks.

[nobodyspecial]

Are they paint-by-numbers of clowns?

What if you had the heads of clowns mounted as hunting trophies ? Does that cancel out ?

[Squirrel away]

An upper class home sounds like Frasier Crane's apartment.:P

[iris lily]

He also had a test to determine someone's class by observing their living room that I really got a kick out of!

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/010/livingroomscale.html

Hysterical! 

How many points do I add for a Nascar lap blanket on the barcolounger or the crocheted afghan on the sofa?

What about:
Police scanner -4
Inflatable Holiday Decorations -11
Satellite dish -6
Pit bull -5
Chihuahua -9
Welsh Corgi +5

This is getting me in the mood for some Antsy McClain....

I'd leave the pit bull,out of the equation all together. Here in my urban core they are ubiquitous and may live in the ghetto or may be rescue dogs in middle class homes.

You maybe right about the corgis, however.

[Jack]

An upper class home sounds like Frasier Crane's apartment.:P

Eames chair! Minus 2 points!

(...which serves to illustrate just how much that method hates modernism. I don't care what that guy thinks; Eames chairs are high-class!)

I have two living-room-like spaces; one scored 84 and the other scored 110. If I moved my old furniture to the room with the books, removed the TV and brought my potted lemon tree in from outside, it'd get a 127.

Then again, all my old furniture is mid-century modern (if it was made before 1965, it was only just barely), which means it probably violates the spirit of the test.

Also, how much should I subtract for the toolbox and the cat tree?!

[bacchi]

Wonder what the +- is for the macrome plant hanger that the previous owners left us.

That depends on whether a child made it and what time era (70s? Totally +5).

Eames chair! Minus 2 points!

(...which serves to illustrate just how much that method hates modernism. I don't care what that guy thinks; Eames chairs are high-class!)

I took that to mean an "Eames chair" and not an original, authentic, Eames chair. Or, yeah, maybe it's a reflection of the old-school/English=classy theme going on.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

I thought the Eames chair at -2 was a bit strange as well. Plastic mini-blinds get the same score. Are we being serious here?

[calimom]

Our living room scored an 84 which seems kind of posh for this crowd. :)   Wonder what the +- is for the macrome plant hanger that the previous owners left us.  Everyone should have one of these:
 

Macrame and a tillandsia is very hip these days! 

I read the Paul Fussell book for a class in college, I think I still have my copy on my living room (which does not contain a TV) bookshelf.  No one is left unskewered in it, but as I remember, it's more observational than judgmental.

[kite]

I thought the Eames chair at -2 was a bit strange as well. Plastic mini-blinds get the same score. Are we being serious here?

Of course it's not serious.  It's classist  (obviously) and a little bit racist.