Author Topic: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness  (Read 17168 times)

MBot

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The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« on: November 27, 2014, 06:25:03 PM »
I thought this was very balanced

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/31/the-problem-with-minimalism/

Especially the final paragraph:
"As I said at the beginning, I think minimalism is a great thing, just not when taken to extremes. A man should have a healthy relationship with his possessions, and that means getting into the right mindset about them, and then not thinking about them very much at all. Most of the great men I admire from history knew what they needed and enjoyed (check out their libraries and studies). They accumulated things that were both practical and simply brought them pleasure. They bought things that were well-made and wouldn’t have to be replaced over and over. They didn’t hoard or surround themselves with junk. They didn’t go overboard and stretch their budget to keep up with the Joneses. And they didn’t have to make a philosophy on stuff central to their lives, because they had too much else going on to need it. They didn’t have time to worry if 103 possessions might be too many, if their huge library of books should be reduced, if their studio full of art supplies was too cluttered, or if a room dedicated to hunting trophies might be weighing down their psyche. But they were minimalists where it mattered: in paring down the time-wasters and soul-suckers that would hold them back from creating a rich, manly legacy."

sheepstache

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 06:56:54 PM »
I do think minimalism has become sort of a trendy status symbol.

I recently re-watched the John Adams miniseries and was struck by how empty people's houses were. Of course, there's some historical guesswork that went into the sets, but it makes sense because there simply weren't that many goods available. It reminds me of arguments that obesity is a problem because people evolved in environments where food wasn't super abundant as it is now, so our systems aren't used to dealing with that. It would make sense that we evolved to be acquisitive in a world where possessions are scarce. But minimalism strikes me as anorexia where there should be a diet based on moderation. Partly because, as the excerpt you quote suggests, it puts too much focus on possessions.

eta: Also, I mean, not to sound like a raving fundamentalist since I'm banging on a similar vein in another thread, but MMM never talks about minimalism as far as I can tell. He owns lots of things that he enjoys. I accept that for some people the attraction to the MMM message and the attraction to minimalism come from the same place and I guess that's why it comes up on the forum as much as it does.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 07:02:30 PM by sheepstache »

kendallf

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 08:57:51 PM »
Yes.  I think if you're counting your possessions, and obsessing over how to reduce them to some arbitrary, lower number, they still own you as they did when you had them in excess.

ShortStuff

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2015, 06:03:46 PM »
I think there were elements of this article that were flat out wrong, and ignored the vast number of people who follow a minimalist lifestyle while having little wealth.
The article states: "minimalism is largely something only well-off people can afford to pursue, because their wealth provides a cushion of safety. If they get rid of something, and then need it later, they’ll just buy it again."
that's too simplistic a statement.  Minimalism isn't all about throwing things you may later need, it at times is about throwing out things you will NEVER need, like grandma's figurines or that old dress you'll never fit into. It doesn't take wealth to do that. And Jacob Fisher from Early retirement extreme was a pretty big proponent of minimalism, and he was by no means wealthy.

Retire-Canada

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2015, 06:13:13 PM »
Having read a bunch of ERE and minimalism stuff online I'd agree that obsessing about having the least possible amount of stuff arranged in the most optimal way is as unhealthy as consuming like pac man.

Quote
A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her.

The senior monk carried this woman on his shoulder, forded the river and let her down on the other bank. The junior monk was very upset, but said nothing.

They both were walking and senior monk noticed that his junior was suddenly silent and enquired “Is something the matter, you seem very upset?”

The junior monk replied, “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The senior monk replied, “I left the woman a long time ago at the bank, however, you seem to be carrying her still.”

Reminds me of this story. ^^^^

Obsessing about anything is something to be avoided. Whether it's having a lot of stuff or very little.

-- Vik

Emilyngh

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2015, 06:22:34 PM »
I think that it depends on how you define minimalism.

If you see minimalism as evaluating what things truly bring you happiness and only having those things, IMO it is very similar to Mustachiasm (and thus clearly very good ;)  )!

If you define minimalism as living in a cold, empty, world, without the things you need while sacrificing your true happiness, then clearly its bad.

I, personally, see it the first way and thus find working towards it freeing and in-line with my true values.

MayDay

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2015, 07:03:05 PM »
I am the kind of person, that stuff stresses me out.  I need a clear tidy space for my brain to be clear and tidy.  So being minimalist brings me happiness.  And to me that is the point of why we are all here. 

If having all your stuff makes you happy, then keep it.  But if having all your stuff does not make you happy, yet for whatever reason you can't/don't naturally pare down your stuff, then these gimmicks like counting possessions might help you do that.  And thus help you be more happy. 

I spend time thinking about what I could downsize or eliminate not because I am obsessing, but because it makes me happy to have one less thing surrounding me!   

Retire-Canada

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2015, 07:55:31 AM »

I spend time thinking about what I could downsize or eliminate not because I am obsessing, but because it makes me happy to have one less thing surrounding me!

Not to suggest you specifically are obsessing over this, but people who obsesses over stuff don't feel what they are doing is unreasonable. It all makes perfect sense to them. Just like a hoarder can explain and rationalize why they are stockpiling stuff from floor to ceiling.

If you are spending a lot of your time thinking about your stuff than you need to question how healthy that is. Regardless whether it's a big pile of stuff or a small pile of stuff.

-- Vik

ShaneD

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2015, 11:08:53 AM »
I dunno. That post just seems an excuse to bitch about what the authors consider extremism and a bit of entitlement. I get it, but I also think their post falls into much of the same trap.

Here they pretty much sum it, without the "but" of the rest:

Quote
There is something very inspiring about living Spartanly, and there are some definite benefits to doing so. It helps you not get caught up in the consumerism trap, and keeping your life free of excess stuff unburdens your mind from that weight, allows you to be mobile and travel light, and helps you save money and focus on that which is really valuable.

We don't live Spartanly, but we do live small. Our brand of minimalism (as it were, though I'm not sure I ever really call it that) is mostly practical. We're a family of 2, and we only need so much space before we're buying stuff to fill the space for filling's sake. We're selling LPs because we haven't owned a record player in decades and don't feel the need to. We pare back on books now and then because we'd like them to fit on the 3 bookcases we already own rather than buying a 4th. By owning less, we need less space, so we save on square footage, and therefore retire sooner and spend saved housing money on things we'd more enjoy (like travel and living in a better area than we otherwise could). On the flipside, I have 6 pairs of identical sneakers packed in a closet because I have difficult-to-fit feet, so on the rare occasion I find something that works, I stockpile. Pure practicality.

But as a bonus, making such occasional decisions brings a healthy dose of self-reflection, especially regarding possessions from a previous life that may no longer serve the current one. Where that line lies between healthy dose and obsession, of course, is debatable.

Michael792

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2015, 04:42:42 AM »
I never knew about minimalism until about two years ago. However, it has always seemed to me to be better to travel light-and I travel a lot in my life. Always have. I'd like to not worry about what's at home, or what I should have brought, or dealing with cleaning and maintaining a bunch of junk when I get home.

In 2013 I believed I was going to deploy to Afghanistan, and I ended up selling nearly all my shit, all of which fit in my childhood bedroom anyway.

Last year when I moved halfway across the world, I brought two bags and a backpack. My backpack contained my records and my only entertainment: a single laptop and a couple of books. I hope to make money online as a way to bring in passive income (having trouble with that), and so I've spent a little here and there so I can create good content. I won't get rid of these things. In my two bags I had with me one pair of shorts, about eight or ten shirts, a week's supply of socks, and two weeks' supply of underwear. The rest was entirely required work gear and equipment.

Back home, I have a truck I'll be selling to my dad for real cheap because it needs work, and about four or five totes' worth of stuff. It's mostly clothes, I think, along with the paper records requisite for living within a governmental system and some other odds and ends. I'll be getting rid of most of it when I get home. It's not obsession. I don't have a number I want to get down to. The only real goal I have in terms of owning stuff is to get to around fifty pounds that I can carry on me while traveling the world. That's still up in the air.But, I do plan on moving across the world at least once more after the Army, and I don't need to bring a lot of bullshit with me. Just the essentials. I'm all about having just the necessities. (I say that as a smoker and person addicted to sweets trying to quit that shit.)

Squirrel away

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2015, 04:50:25 AM »
I am the kind of person, that stuff stresses me out.  I need a clear tidy space for my brain to be clear and tidy.  So being minimalist brings me happiness.  And to me that is the point of why we are all here. 



I'm the same way.:)

forummm

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2015, 03:22:39 PM »
I think there were elements of this article that were flat out wrong, and ignored the vast number of people who follow a minimalist lifestyle while having little wealth.
The article states: "minimalism is largely something only well-off people can afford to pursue, because their wealth provides a cushion of safety. If they get rid of something, and then need it later, they’ll just buy it again."
that's too simplistic a statement.  Minimalism isn't all about throwing things you may later need, it at times is about throwing out things you will NEVER need, like grandma's figurines or that old dress you'll never fit into. It doesn't take wealth to do that. And Jacob Fisher from Early retirement extreme was a pretty big proponent of minimalism, and he was by no means wealthy.

I differ here. I think this is a big part of it for many people. When I had nothing I kept everything. Now I try not to collect things in the first place, and I know I can get them later if needed--even if at a higher cost. Jakob had $300k+. I think that's wealthy enough to not worry about owning books and DVDs because you can buy them later.

I agree with other posters that this has become somewhat of a status symbol. But I really only see it among people who could have whatever normal stuff they wanted (I mean small ticket items, not a yacht). When you're poor, the mindset is very different.

Another aspect of the phenomenon is that we just simply have way too much stuff. It's so cheap to make stuff now that we just have piles of it everywhere. Too much clutter weighs on the mind of many people. I feel it more about my inbox (must get stuff out of there!) than physical possessions. But DW gets anxious about my book collection where I get happy just by looking at it.

dycker1978

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2015, 03:39:59 PM »
I think that MMM has a great take on minimalism.  Be conscious and buy only what you truly need, or what will make you truly happy.  No more no less.  There is not set amount that he preaches on what to buy, just be aware of what it is.

When you secede that you need a thing(car, bike, cart, whatever) do your research and get the best dollar value you can.  For example, buy used clothing, car, bike.

His purpose, I suppose, is primarily finical, but this also is minimalistic, at least from my point of view.

Use it up, the recycle it, don't waste.  Don't buy what you done need...

This is just my thoughts. 

forummm

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2015, 04:49:13 PM »
Side note: I like how at the side of the article on minimalism it has an ad for the Art of Manliness mug in the Art of Manliness Store where you can buy lots of Art of Manliness crap.

Bob W

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2015, 09:29:15 AM »
I think many of the minimalist thinking patterns are beneficial.   For example -- what is the least amount of effort one can put into showering.

Person B (lets call him Zombie Human) -  Showers daily for 15 minutes using 2 ounces of soap and $1 worth of hot water in a $4,000 shower. They use 3 towels which are promptly put in the laundry bin. 
Person x  (let's call him minimal Marty) -  Showers weekly for 5 minutes with cold water and 1/2 ounce of soap at a friends house.
Person S  (let's call him a thinker)  -- Showers when needed,  for the minimal optimum amount of needed minutes and uses the minimal optimal amount of soap at the most practical location, using the minimal optimal amount of towel,  washing it the minimal optimum amount.   Occasionally he/she takes a longer shower just for the fun of it while singing his favorite Beatles tune.  His shower enclosure might be a $300 fiberglass model or a handcrafted beauty with 6 shower heads.    He chooses with thoughtfulness and purposeful thinking. 

I'm hoping most MMM readers lean towards the "thinker" end of the spectrum?  While using the Zombie Human and Minimalist Martys as reference points. 

teadirt

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 12:30:43 PM »
I think many of the minimalist thinking patterns are beneficial.   For example -- what is the least amount of effort one can put into showering.

Person B (lets call him Zombie Human) -  Showers daily for 15 minutes using 2 ounces of soap and $1 worth of hot water in a $4,000 shower. They use 3 towels which are promptly put in the laundry bin. 
Person x  (let's call him minimal Marty) -  Showers weekly for 5 minutes with cold water and 1/2 ounce of soap at a friends house.
Person S  (let's call him a thinker)  -- Showers when needed,  for the minimal optimum amount of needed minutes and uses the minimal optimal amount of soap at the most practical location, using the minimal optimal amount of towel,  washing it the minimal optimum amount.   Occasionally he/she takes a longer shower just for the fun of it while singing his favorite Beatles tune.  His shower enclosure might be a $300 fiberglass model or a handcrafted beauty with 6 shower heads.    He chooses with thoughtfulness and purposeful thinking. 

I'm hoping most MMM readers lean towards the "thinker" end of the spectrum?  While using the Zombie Human and Minimalist Martys as reference points.

This reminds me of a joke I heard a while back:

One zen student said, "My teacher is the best. He can go 30 days without eating."
The second said, "My teacher has so much self-control, he can go 30 days without sleep."
The third said, "My teacher is so wise that he eats when he's hungry and sleeps when he's tired."

I think minimalism for its own sake is pointless. It's not about how much you can bear to do without, as others have said.

Bob W

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 01:03:28 PM »
I think many of the minimalist thinking patterns are beneficial.   For example -- what is the least amount of effort one can put into showering.

Person B (lets call him Zombie Human) -  Showers daily for 15 minutes using 2 ounces of soap and $1 worth of hot water in a $4,000 shower. They use 3 towels which are promptly put in the laundry bin. 
Person x  (let's call him minimal Marty) -  Showers weekly for 5 minutes with cold water and 1/2 ounce of soap at a friends house.
Person S  (let's call him a thinker)  -- Showers when needed,  for the minimal optimum amount of needed minutes and uses the minimal optimal amount of soap at the most practical location, using the minimal optimal amount of towel,  washing it the minimal optimum amount.   Occasionally he/she takes a longer shower just for the fun of it while singing his favorite Beatles tune.  His shower enclosure might be a $300 fiberglass model or a handcrafted beauty with 6 shower heads.    He chooses with thoughtfulness and purposeful thinking. 

I'm hoping most MMM readers lean towards the "thinker" end of the spectrum?  While using the Zombie Human and Minimalist Martys as reference points.

This reminds me of a joke I heard a while back:

One zen student said, "My teacher is the best. He can go 30 days without eating."
The second said, "My teacher has so much self-control, he can go 30 days without sleep."
The third said, "My teacher is so wise that he eats when he's hungry and sleeps when he's tired."

I think minimalism for its own sake is pointless. It's not about how much you can bear to do without, as others have said.

That is a good one.   I'll have to use it. 

Kinda like the joke about 3 MMM followers ---

3 MMM followers pull up to a bar on their bicycles --- they walk in and order 3 glasses of water.  Bartender is a bit confused and irritated but plays along.  They spend an hour sipping water and talking about vanguard funds and who washes their shower towels the fewest times per year.   The bar tender is becoming increasingly irritated but keeps smiling.  He even chimes in at one point  "bath towels are for wussies  --- I just squeegee  off and call it good."   The mustachians get ready to leave and flip the guy a 10 spot as a tip.   He appears mystified.   One of them notices and says "its not about the drinks man.  Its about the experience." 

Later that night they all purchase bath squeegees and put their towels away for the last time.     

(well it was a lot better joke when I imagined it as a scene from Portlandia)

teadirt

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2015, 02:04:27 PM »
Haha, you got me! I had to look up "bath squeegee," expecting a mustachean replacement for bath towels I'd never heard about.

Nope, it's just a squeegee.

Spud

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2015, 11:22:27 AM »
I think minimalism for its own sake is pointless. It's not about how much you can bear to do without, as others have said.

This hits the nail on the head for me. Minimalism should be a means to an end, not the end in and of itself.

About 4 years ago I discovered this site - http://mnmlist.com/archive/ from Leo Babauta and was inspired by the posts at the bottom of the page from September 2009. After that I found the newer posts a bit repetitive, but I understood what Leo was saying. I was inspired and went on a massive de-cluttering spree in every area of my life.

Before the spree (which lasted about 2 weeks) I was basically a minimalist with a load of stuff.

That sounds contradictory. To clarify, I wasn't acquiring more and more stuff all the time by spending my earnings on pointless crap, but at the same time I definitely wasn't getting rid of old stuff that I had had lying around for 10 years or more and no longer needed.

I loved the feeling of not having loads of crap lying around. I found it easier to be tidy and organised simply because when you don't have very much, there is nothing to organise. I read some article that said when you have a massive wardrobe full of clothes you need to sort them by colour or season or material etc. When you only have 6 T-shirts, it doesn't really make any difference how you hang them or stack them because they don't take up that much space.

My mental state certainly improved as well. At the time I was about to move in with my fiancée and it made moving almost pleasurable because there was so little to think about. I also didn't want to burden her very small house with tons of stuff. I ended up making almost no impact at all and she kept saying "Where's your stuff? It doesn't even feel like you're here." That was really satisfying.

I read some more articles on other blogs about people trying to own no more than 100 items in total and whilst I thought it was pretty cool it did strike me as a bit weird and pointless. It seemed to turn into some sort of competition and there was some terribly snobbery in the online minimalist community, mocking anyone that had an entire pair of shoes (not quite but you get the point).

Loads of the blogs that I read seemed to advocate minimalism for mental clarity and for anti-consumerism/pro-environmental purposes, both of which I strongly approve, but not to the point where you're re-using dental floss or living in a tent made of your own childhood clothes.

MMM was the first blog that I read that had a strong minimalist thread running through all the posts, but had a powerful and highly motivating FINANCIAL purpose to it.

I read what I already understood - Owning/buying/hoarding less stuff meant that you could live in a smaller house because you didn't need loads of space to keep loads of stuff. That would cost you less money.

The eye opener for me was MMM then linked the costing less money to saving ---> investing ---> and then retiring early.

It was so simple and so obvious but I had never linked these things together before simply because I didn't know anything about how investing could make money grow on its own. I also thought that retirement was something that you did when you were at least 60. That's what my parents and grandparents did, why should it be any different for me?

This why when I introduce people to MMM and the FIRE concept and call it "Minimalism with balls". There's actually an endgame. There's a purpose to it, and you don't fall prey to what kendallf beautifully sums in the most minimal manner:

Yes.  I think if you're counting your possessions, and obsessing over how to reduce them to some arbitrary, lower number, they still own you as they did when you had them in excess.

Elderwood17

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2015, 05:28:20 PM »
I think many of the minimalist thinking patterns are beneficial.   For example -- what is the least amount of effort one can put into showering.

Person B (lets call him Zombie Human) -  Showers daily for 15 minutes using 2 ounces of soap and $1 worth of hot water in a $4,000 shower. They use 3 towels which are promptly put in the laundry bin. 
Person x  (let's call him minimal Marty) -  Showers weekly for 5 minutes with cold water and 1/2 ounce of soap at a friends house.
Person S  (let's call him a thinker)  -- Showers when needed,  for the minimal optimum amount of needed minutes and uses the minimal optimal amount of soap at the most practical location, using the minimal optimal amount of towel,  washing it the minimal optimum amount.   Occasionally he/she takes a longer shower just for the fun of it while singing his favorite Beatles tune.  His shower enclosure might be a $300 fiberglass model or a handcrafted beauty with 6 shower heads.    He chooses with thoughtfulness and purposeful thinking. 

I'm hoping most MMM readers lean towards the "thinker" end of the spectrum?  While using the Zombie Human and Minimalist Martys as reference points.

This reminds me of a joke I heard a while back:

One zen student said, "My teacher is the best. He can go 30 days without eating."
The second said, "My teacher has so much self-control, he can go 30 days without sleep."
The third said, "My teacher is so wise that he eats when he's hungry and sleeps when he's tired."

I think minimalism for its own sake is pointless. It's not about how much you can bear to do without, as others have said.

Ha!  I like that one.

I have started on a path towards minimalism, but it is relative.  Quickly learned DW is not there yet, so I focus on reducing my own stuff, and find I enjoy the rest more.  That is the point, after all.

sheepstache

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2015, 10:30:00 AM »
"Have you ever owned anything? This is why you cannot forgive any of your former lovers. Things like “having chairs” is preventing you from living your best life, and also you should throw away any item of clothing you’re not currently wearing. If it’s not on your skin, you don’t really love it, do you?"

http://the-toast.net/2015/02/24/get-rid-clutter-live-abundantly/

Basenji

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2015, 10:38:33 AM »
You had me at
3 MMM followers pull up to a bar on their bicycles --- they walk in and order 3 glasses of water.

Sam E

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Re: The problem with minimalism - from Art of Manliness
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2015, 01:05:23 PM »
I thought this was very balanced

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/31/the-problem-with-minimalism/

Especially the final paragraph:
"As I said at the beginning, I think minimalism is a great thing, just not when taken to extremes. A man should have a healthy relationship with his possessions, and that means getting into the right mindset about them, and then not thinking about them very much at all. Most of the great men I admire from history knew what they needed and enjoyed (check out their libraries and studies). They accumulated things that were both practical and simply brought them pleasure. They bought things that were well-made and wouldn’t have to be replaced over and over. They didn’t hoard or surround themselves with junk. They didn’t go overboard and stretch their budget to keep up with the Joneses. And they didn’t have to make a philosophy on stuff central to their lives, because they had too much else going on to need it. They didn’t have time to worry if 103 possessions might be too many, if their huge library of books should be reduced, if their studio full of art supplies was too cluttered, or if a room dedicated to hunting trophies might be weighing down their psyche. But they were minimalists where it mattered: in paring down the time-wasters and soul-suckers that would hold them back from creating a rich, manly legacy."

I didn't read the whole article, but from that summary it sounds like a type of article I see a lot that goes like this: "The problem with X is that if you take it to the furthest extremes and/or do it for the wrong reasons it's not such a good thing!" Which, no shit, of course not. I would say that what he's describing as problematic minimalism isn't minimalism in general, but the modern fad of "minimalism," which is definitely a race to the bottom where people compare with each other how few items they can own compared to each other and see who's best at being minimal.

At its core, the actual principles of minimalism are exactly as he describes: Figuring out what you truly need and what truly makes you happy and only keeping those things around you. It's about everything you own being something you use or something that serves a purpose in truly improving your life in some way. Yet he says minimalism is bad because some people are taking it to the extremes.

The concept of minimalism that he's arguing against feels like a strawman because he takes the most extreme sample and presents that as being the definition of minimalism. And like I said, this is a type of article I see all the time and it always makes me cringe because at best it sounds highly ignorant of the topic and at worst it sounds highly dishonest about the topic.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!