The military version of "Just one more year"...

[Nords]

Here's a common fear associated with financial independence:  "Just One More Year Syndrome".  Even when the math works and the statistics are heavily in the person's favor, they're still not comfortable with giving up the paycheck.

This is especially prevalent in the U.S. military, where burned-out servicemembers are still reluctant to retire.  Even if they're financially independent when they leave the military, they frequently start a bridge career "to see what I can do".  Sometimes it's a commitment to serve others, once in a while it's worrying about having too much free time.  Perhaps the attitude is based more in fear & ignorance than in ambition.  I call it the military inferiority complex.

I've been chatting about this almost weekly with one of my friends who retired from active duty several years ago.  He's been financially independent for at least five years.  He and his spouse have great kids and a large home with a wonderful lifestyle.  He has a military pension, cheap healthcare, a handful of paid-off cash-flowing rental properties, and a portfolio of equities & bonds.  His net worth is higher than mine and I even taught him how to surf after he retired yet... he wasn't comfortable.  So he found himself a job through his network.  It pays at least twice the amount of his military pension and this salary alone could easily fund its own FI within a decade.  It turns out that military veterans got skills.

Yet he's slowly weaning himself from the corporate environment.  He's been promoted twice, and now he's telecommuting.  He's removed most of the "dissatisfiers" from his workplace.   He's bought more rental properties.  However he's finally beginning to feel that even this easy income is sucking time away from his interests with family & leisure. 

He's updated his journey a couple times on the blog, and here's his latest.
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/06/12/reader-update-from-the-military-to-bridge-career-to-retirement/

[isaacfcb1]

Great to see advice geared towards this sub group! I'm 19 years old and a Marine, ha if no one is thinking about FIRE in the civilian world ha that number is even smaller here! Everyone around me just wastes away their money left and right.

[EricL]

The US military is the ultimate example of the successes and pitfals of the Anglo Saxon Protestant Work Ethic.  This was developed in Europe during and after the Reformation as a belief that work is a form of worshipping God.  As such, work demanded your most dilligent attention, focus, efficiency, and effort.  There are some historians that believe the Reformation was more influential in northern Europe because it focused peasants and workmen to their tasks rather than the endless cycle of Catholic holidays inherited from the Middle Ages.  Not having to pay fat taxes to the Pope probably helped too. 

This work ethic paid big dividends in the industrial revolution and western militaries.  Guys and gals amped to be "always on", "giving 110%", always questing to do a little more, or at least showing up on time are pretty handy to have around.  The downside can be burn out, workaholism, alienated families, drug addiction, consumerism, risk aversion, and psychosis.  On an organizational scale it can help enormously.  But it can also mean staff organizations with 100 super smart people trampling over themselves to produce a meaningful individual contribution and instead collectively producing garbage.  Also micro management and turgid bureacracies. 

Specifically for the US Army, we time promotions to Lieutenant Colonel (O5) to coincide with an officer's 20 year mark.  And then we insist if they get promoted they stay at least two years more in order to retire at that pay grade.  Discussion on the merit of this at Fort Leavenworth ended with the instructor yelling "Are you %(&*^ kidding me?!  Do you KNOW how much a *#%$ retired O5 makes compared to an O4?!!"  Which is true.  The extra two years also adds 5% to the pension.  NCOs have a simular but not as exact career timing.

Is it worth it?  That depends on your attitude toward the military.  Some guys are chomping at the bit to leave, others figure another 2 years can't hurt.  Many are prisoners of the aforementioned work ethic and fear losing their identity.  They HAVE to get another job.  But at least antecdotally I've heard that workoholic Soldiers often last much longer jumping to a new job than Soldiers who PCS to the couch. 

Young Servicemen and women are the hardest to train to be fiscally responsible.  They think they're either going to 1) Live Forever or 2) Die before their 30.  Neither is good for long term savings.  Been there, done that, didn't even get a t-shirt.

[CheapskateWife]

Fantastic to see this discussed!  Cheapskate Husband and I are at this point...22 years of service, and every extra year is just a little more added to the pension.  But it really isn't that simple.  There is so much of his self worth tied to the rank, and the question of what happens next when we decide that the resulting pension really is enough to live off.

One dynamic of the career military family that isn't often discussed is that many of us aren't on our first marriages (thanks deployments!) and decisions to terminate active service is predicated on some complicated calculus, sometimes involving requirements to continue to provide support to children from a previous marriage.  So when we figure our expenses...that monthly allotment, and then her (admittedly modest) share of his retirement goes into the math.   

The other aspect that we are dealing with is that the state his children live in include this concept of "underemployment" where he could be fined for not working to his fullest potential and reducing his child support burden....so even if the income goes down, he pays the same to support the kids.  So for us, we just can't retire until child support is over.  5 years...its doable. 

We are planning, however, at that point to take a huge sabbatical...rv across the country.  Take a break for goodness sake and enjoy ourselves and our newfound freedom.

Nords, we've read your book and have used it as a way of helping to get over the idea that we simply have to have a bridge career....that work ethic thing is hard to beat down, but we are going to get it :D

[Jennifer in Ottawa]

Probably the biggest reason for military members to put off retiring has absolutely nothing to do with money, it has to do with fear of loss.

As a soldier, you are part of a large extended family.  You have supports.  You have friends.  The people you work with and live near are your social group.  Even when you meet another service member you have never met before, you have a basis of commonality, and things you can talk about. 

These relationships sever for the most part when you leave.  The best I can explain this to civilians is to consider moving away from your family and never seeing or speaking to them ever again. That's what the prospect of retirement feels like to a soldier.

Then's the loss of status.  As you climb the ranks you become more comfortable in leadership positions.  You are respected, and your rank and skills, abilities and training recognized.  Losing that is a bitter pill to swallow.

Also, your career, your service, becomes an inherent part of your identity.  An awful lot of long serving retired soldiers don't live long into their retirement because they just can't come to terms with the magnitude and the number of losses.

[Workinghard]

I think so much of this depends on personality.  My older son will be retiring soon at the 20 year mark and I don't think it will be an issue for him.

Our way younger son is totally different. He's been in the guard for a couple years and will be commissioned as an officer later this year. He loves the guard and being a part of something bigger than himself. He is thankful for his civilian job but finds it mundane and barely tolerable. I could definitely see him having problems for the very reasons you listed. He has already experienced that on a much smaller scale. Today he was told he would be receiving an offer from a defense contractor. He will jump at the opportunity.

Probably the biggest reason for military members to put off retiring has absolutely nothing to do with money, it has to do with fear of loss.

As a soldier, you are part of a large extended family.  You have supports.  You have friends.  The people you work with and live near are your social group.  Even when you meet another service member you have never met before, you have a basis of commonality, and things you can talk about. 

These relationships sever for the most part when you leave.  The best I can explain this to civilians is to consider moving away from your family and never seeing or speaking to them ever again. That's what the prospect of retirement feels like to a soldier.

Then's the loss of status.  As you climb the ranks you become more comfortable in leadership positions.  You are respected, and your rank and skills, abilities and training recognized.  Losing that is a bitter pill to swallow.

Also, your career, your service, becomes an inherent part of your identity.  An awful lot of long serving retired soldiers don't live long into their retirement because they just can't come to terms with the magnitude and the number of losses.

[Nords]

These relationships sever for the most part when you leave.  The best I can explain this to civilians is to consider moving away from your family and never seeing or speaking to them ever again. That's what the prospect of retirement feels like to a soldier.

Social media has made a tremendous difference. 

We Cold War submarine veterans used to have to join the local chapters of various military organizations and maybe get together at an occasional ship's crew reunion.  Now we can look up our shipmates directly on Facebook and join Facebook's Cold War Submarine Veterans group. 

However those who've left the military in the last 5-8 years probably aren't so easily impressed as us woolly mammoths.

I think so much of this depends on personality.  My older son will be retiring soon at the 20 year mark and I don't think it will be an issue for him.

Absolutely-- part of it depends on whether you have an "inner" personal scorecard or an "outer" one.

One of my COs (a very centered guy) used to say that every night some retired general or admiral was crying himself to sleep because he only made it as far as Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. 

Everyone starts recruit training without a clue with your service's external scorecard.  But somewhere along the way-- whether it's two years or 40-- you have to develop your own internal scorecard (or values, or standards, or locus of control) in order to "survive" and thrive after the uniform.

In some ways, growing a ponytail after I retired has made sure that I'm never tempted to dress up in my uniform again.

[Workinghard]

Sounds like you'll be okay as long as your wife doesn't cut your pony tail.  Makes me think of Samson and Delilah. Although not military, my dh misses the camaraderie of working on the fire department decades after he chose a different career path. And yes, he's on FB. :)

In some ways, growing a ponytail after I retired has made sure that I'm never tempted to dress up in my uniform again.

[EricL]

Probably the biggest reason for military members to put off retiring has absolutely nothing to do with money, it has to do with fear of loss.

As a soldier, you are part of a large extended family.  You have supports.  You have friends.  The people you work with and live near are your social group.  Even when you meet another service member you have never met before, you have a basis of commonality, and things you can talk about. 

These relationships sever for the most part when you leave.  The best I can explain this to civilians is to consider moving away from your family and never seeing or speaking to them ever again. That's what the prospect of retirement feels like to a soldier.

Then's the loss of status.  As you climb the ranks you become more comfortable in leadership positions.  You are respected, and your rank and skills, abilities and training recognized.  Losing that is a bitter pill to swallow.

Also, your career, your service, becomes an inherent part of your identity.  An awful lot of long serving retired soldiers don't live long into their retirement because they just can't come to terms with the magnitude and the number of losses.

You are very right about the loss of social contact driving retirement decisions/regrets though I'm not sure if it's the biggest reason. 

Hopefully at some point though an officer doesn't need daily saluting and getting called "sir" to validate their identity or self worth.

One of my favorite retirement stories was told to me in a speech by a retired General.  He said the first week of retirement he had to break himself of the habit of climbing into the back seat of his own car every morning.

[Spartana]

Probably the biggest reason for military members to put off retiring has absolutely nothing to do with money, it has to do with fear of loss.

As a soldier, you are part of a large extended family.  You have supports.  You have friends.  The people you work with and live near are your social group.  Even when you meet another service member you have never met before, you have a basis of commonality, and things you can talk about. 

These relationships sever for the most part when you leave.  The best I can explain this to civilians is to consider moving away from your family and never seeing or speaking to them ever again. That's what the prospect of retirement feels like to a soldier.

Then's the loss of status.  As you climb the ranks you become more comfortable in leadership positions.  You are respected, and your rank and skills, abilities and training recognized.  Losing that is a bitter pill to swallow.

Also, your career, your service, becomes an inherent part of your identity.  An awful lot of long serving retired soldiers don't live long into their retirement because they just can't come to terms with the magnitude and the number of losses.

I completely agree with this Jennifer. I went thru a huge sense of loss when I got out and was never been satisfied with my very interesting civilian job afterwards. That dissatisfaction was part of what lead me to ER early. My ex-dh was also a service member and he stayed in...and stayed in...and stayed in... and stayed in.... endlessly extending, It is what lead to our divorce eventually.

[Workinghard]

Still laughing at this one.

One of my favorite retirement stories was told to me in a speech by a retired General.  He said the first week of retirement he had to break himself of the habit of climbing into the back seat of his own car every morning.

[Villanelle]

The US military is the ultimate example of the successes and pitfals of the Anglo Saxon Protestant Work Ethic.  This was developed in Europe during and after the Reformation as a belief that work is a form of worshipping God.  As such, work demanded your most dilligent attention, focus, efficiency, and effort.  There are some historians that believe the Reformation was more influential in northern Europe because it focused peasants and workmen to their tasks rather than the endless cycle of Catholic holidays inherited from the Middle Ages.  Not having to pay fat taxes to the Pope probably helped too. 

This work ethic paid big dividends in the industrial revolution and western militaries.  Guys and gals amped to be "always on", "giving 110%", always questing to do a little more, or at least showing up on time are pretty handy to have around.  The downside can be burn out, workaholism, alienated families, drug addiction, consumerism, risk aversion, and psychosis.  On an organizational scale it can help enormously.  But it can also mean staff organizations with 100 super smart people trampling over themselves to produce a meaningful individual contribution and instead collectively producing garbage.  Also micro management and turgid bureacracies. 

Specifically for the US Army, we time promotions to Lieutenant Colonel (O5) to coincide with an officer's 20 year mark.  And then we insist if they get promoted they stay at least two years more in order to retire at that pay grade.  Discussion on the merit of this at Fort Leavenworth ended with the instructor yelling "Are you %(&*^ kidding me?!  Do you KNOW how much a *#%$ retired O5 makes compared to an O4?!!"  Which is true.  The extra two years also adds 5% to the pension.  NCOs have a simular but not as exact career timing.

Is it worth it?  That depends on your attitude toward the military.  Some guys are chomping at the bit to leave, others figure another 2 years can't hurt.  Many are prisoners of the aforementioned work ethic and fear losing their identity.  They HAVE to get another job.  But at least antecdotally I've heard that workoholic Soldiers often last much longer jumping to a new job than Soldiers who PCS to the couch. 

Young Servicemen and women are the hardest to train to be fiscally responsible.  They think they're either going to 1) Live Forever or 2) Die before their 30.  Neither is good for long term savings.  Been there, done that, didn't even get a t-shirt.

This is interesting.  I'd assumed all the services are the same.  DH is Navy and will put on O-5 around 16 years, and he is not an early promote.  He'll finish is command tour ~6 months shy of 20, so he'll need to do another tour, though if there is no command bonus for him and if he takes sea duty, he will only have to serve 12 months.

If he makes captain, I am little doubt he'll stay long enough to get 3 years of O-6 pay and the corresponding retirement bump.

I also believe he will have a full bridge career.  Part of that will be financials, but it will also be his own need to have a Thing.  My dad was the same way.  Twenty years in the military, 20 at a civilian job (and a second pension), and then several iterations of a consulting career.

DH's work schedule has left him without any hobbies, other than work.  When he's not working, he enjoys reading about leadership or learning how to use Sharepoint more effectively.  He'd be lost without work.  I've encouraged him to find some other hobbies and there are a few he seems mildly interested in, but they won't be started until he's Out.

It's not about  "need daily saluting and getting called "sir" to validate their identity or self worth".  That's a little offensive, actually.  It's that he enjoys what he does and the sense of purpose.  He likes making a difference in the lives of his sailors.

His skill set (helo pilot) is not one that easily transfers to the civilian world.  I know that's a concern for him as well and a big reason he may consider staying past 20.  He'll want to work, and he'll need to work at a certain level (no Walmart greeting), and he'll also want to make decent money.  At the same time, he's already burning out in some ways, with 5 years still to go, at least.  I'm hoping that's just this particular job and that the next one will reinvigorate him a bit. 

[Nords]

This is interesting.  I'd assumed all the services are the same.  DH is Navy and will put on O-5 around 16 years, and he is not an early promote.  He'll finish is command tour ~6 months shy of 20, so he'll need to do another tour, though if there is no command bonus for him and if he takes sea duty, he will only have to serve 12 months.

If he makes captain, I am little doubt he'll stay long enough to get 3 years of O-6 pay and the corresponding retirement bump.

I also believe he will have a full bridge career.  Part of that will be financials, but it will also be his own need to have a Thing.  My dad was the same way.  Twenty years in the military, 20 at a civilian job (and a second pension), and then several iterations of a consulting career.

DH's work schedule has left him without any hobbies, other than work.  When he's not working, he enjoys reading about leadership or learning how to use Sharepoint more effectively.  He'd be lost without work.  I've encouraged him to find some other hobbies and there are a few he seems mildly interested in, but they won't be started until he's Out.

It's not about  "need daily saluting and getting called "sir" to validate their identity or self worth".  That's a little offensive, actually.  It's that he enjoys what he does and the sense of purpose.  He likes making a difference in the lives of his sailors.

His skill set (helo pilot) is not one that easily transfers to the civilian world.  I know that's a concern for him as well and a big reason he may consider staying past 20.  He'll want to work, and he'll need to work at a certain level (no Walmart greeting), and he'll also want to make decent money.  At the same time, he's already burning out in some ways, with 5 years still to go, at least.  I'm hoping that's just this particular job and that the next one will reinvigorate him a bit.

When I started writing the book I thought all the services were pretty much the same for personnel and assignment policies, but whoo boy howdy have my eyes been opened to the differences.

The "Sir" self-worth validation is indeed an offensive stereotype, but it exists.  I knew a four-star admiral who retired and took a civilian exec job.  I was told later by a co-worker that the four-star cost their company over $500K during the next year because of all the ego-driven decisions he made and because of all the personnel he "had" to hire.  In other words he rebuilt his admiral's staff and then they went out looking for projects to justify their existence.  He didn't get a second year to see if the situation would turn around.

Meanwhile another four-star retired out here and also took a civilian exec job:  Tom Hayward, a former CNO well-known for the "Not In My Navy" slogan.  When he started at his civilian job he answered his own phone as "Tom" and sent his own faxes.  When someone inevitably expressed their surprise, he said "Well, I thought this job would give me a chance to redesign my life and see what I can do."

You and your spouse may already know this, but it's been mentioned once before:  time in grade after a promotion is normally three years, but the service chiefs have the authority to waive it down to two years.  That's in federal law so two years is the absolute minimum (DoD will not ask Congress for less) but the waiver is routinely granted-- especially during drawdowns.

It sounds like your spouse will be fine as long as he can control having his Thing, whatever that may turn out to be.  If he doesn't already surf then I'm happy to offer him a lesson out here.  However he really needs to connect with DavisGang90, another poster here and blogging at ChartPrepping.com.

Still laughing at this one.

One of my favorite retirement stories was told to me in a speech by a retired General.  He said the first week of retirement he had to break himself of the habit of climbing into the back seat of his own car every morning.

I'm going to have to add this anecdote to my three-minute standup routine of why being an admiral's aide is like parenting a baby...

[EricL]

It's not about  "need daily saluting and getting called "sir" to validate their identity or self worth".  That's a little offensive, actually.  It's that he enjoys what he does and the sense of purpose.  He likes making a difference in the lives of his sailors.

I did not mean to be offensive.  Most officers eventually do realize that they are who they are and saluting and titles are just icing on the cake.  Or as Machiavelli put it: "It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles."  But as Nords pointed out, then there are those other guys.

DH sounds like both a benefactor and a potential victim of the Anglo Saxon Protestant Work Ethic - which I should have mentioned endured even as the Christian fervor behind it subsided. 

It's that he enjoys what he does and the sense of purpose.  He likes making a difference in the lives of his sailors.

  That's a clear indicator - that and being recognized enough to likely get to Commander.  And there's nothing wrong with it as long as he doesn't grind himself (or you) to death doing it or coddle the sailors so much they have to wear pink floaties on shore.

[JDarnell]

The US military is the ultimate example of the successes and pitfals of the Anglo Saxon Protestant Work Ethic. 

This work ethic paid big dividends in the industrial revolution and western militaries.  Guys and gals amped to be "always on", "giving 110%", always questing to do a little more, or at least showing up on time are pretty handy to have around.  The downside can be burn out, workaholism, alienated families, drug addiction, consumerism, risk aversion, and psychosis.  On an organizational scale it can help enormously.  But it can also mean staff organizations with 100 super smart people trampling over themselves to produce a meaningful individual contribution and instead collectively producing garbage.  Also micro management and turgid bureacracies. 

Excellent thread!  After 20 plus yrs of indoctrination it is hard to alter.  And let's face it the majority of these people are good at what they do.  If not they are out.  I like the up and out system.  They learn to thrive in a high paced high stressed environment and are very successful at their endeavors. The adrenaline gets addicting and is hard to turn off.  I know for me there were times when my identity was my rank for short periods of time when the situation dictated however I think I was smart enough to know the limitations.  Since I have hung up the uniform I don't really talk about it nor are interested in returning.  Instead I am focused on using the skills I obtained and perfected to enjoy life the way I choose. 

[Villanelle]

It's not about  "need daily saluting and getting called "sir" to validate their identity or self worth".  That's a little offensive, actually.  It's that he enjoys what he does and the sense of purpose.  He likes making a difference in the lives of his sailors.

I did not mean to be offensive.  Most officers eventually do realize that they are who they are and saluting and titles are just icing on the cake.  Or as Machiavelli put it: "It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles."  But as Nord pointed out, then there are those other guys.

DH sounds like both a benefactor and a potential victim of the Anglo Saxon Protestant Work Ethic - which I should have mentioned endured even as the Christian fervor behind it subsided. 

It's that he enjoys what he does and the sense of purpose.  He likes making a difference in the lives of his sailors.

  That's a clear indicator - that and being recognized enough to likely get to Commander.  And there's nothing wrong with it as long as he doesn't grind himself (or you) to death doing it or coddle the sailors so much they have to wear pink floaties on shore.[/b]

I can't say this--the grinding-- has not ever been an issue.  Last job was full off 100-120 hour weeks, and I was extremely concerned about his health.  And the latest thing, while excellent news for his career and a huge accomplishment, has been extremely hard on me.  I can't say I'm okay with it yet, but I'm working on it.  Three consecutive overseas tour will pretty much be the nail in the coffin on my career and that's causing a giant identity crisis.  And being the "CO's wife" and part of a "command team", as everyone seems to be calling it when they congratulate us (would anyone congratulate him if I got a promotion at work?  It's so odd!) is a mold into which I'm struggling to fit.  I don't know how I am going to feel about him staying past 20.

Anyway, I guess this is straying a bit from the topic and might be more appropriate for a therapist than a money blog, but there have definitely been huge costs to us both, though I've really only started to chafe from them in the last few months.  The next 5 years should be interesting, to say the least!

[davisgang90]

Nords,

I was an Admiral's Aide for ADM Roughead when he was a 1-2 Star.  He described the flag bridge of the carrier once as Flag Officer Day Care:  Lots of screens, buttons and dials that don't do anything so I can't break anything important.

On the issue of time in grade waivers, the Aviation side of the Navy is not currently granting them for 06 because of the number of Aviators filling general 1100 billets.

[Spartana]

Still laughing at this one.

One of my favorite retirement stories was told to me in a speech by a retired General.  He said the first week of retirement he had to break himself of the habit of climbing into the back seat of his own car every morning.

Ha ha! Also cracked me up. I did a very short stint (2 or 3 months) as a (coast guard) Admirals driver in Honolulu while I waited for my new ship to arrive home from patrol so I kind of can see this.  And yes Nords, he lived at the lighthouse on Diamond Head where I picked him up every morning. It was actually the worst duty I had while in the CG (hated it since I liked to be onboard ships and at sea) but was interesting.

[Nords]

The adrenaline gets addicting and is hard to turn off.

Boy, does it ever.  Over 20 years since my last sea duty yet there are still times when I'd sign up all over again-- usually after reading a Cold War submariner's forum. 

I'd enjoy the tactical parts, but not the midwatches or the duty weekends.  Neither me nor my body would be willing/able to pay the price.

I can't say this--the grinding-- has not ever been an issue.  Last job was full off 100-120 hour weeks, and I was extremely concerned about his health.  And the latest thing, while excellent news for his career and a huge accomplishment, has been extremely hard on me.  I can't say I'm okay with it yet, but I'm working on it.  Three consecutive overseas tour will pretty much be the nail in the coffin on my career and that's causing a giant identity crisis.  And being the "CO's wife" and part of a "command team", as everyone seems to be calling it when they congratulate us (would anyone congratulate him if I got a promotion at work?  It's so odd!) is a mold into which I'm struggling to fit.  I don't know how I am going to feel about him staying past 20.

You're right to be concerned, but I guess the good news is that he survived the 100-120-hour workweeks.  Hopefully as CO he gets to sit back a little and spend more time pointing & steering while the other huskies pull the sledge.

I know a military spouse who left her Mainland employer for two overseas tours.  She took unpaid leave but managed to stitch together a consulting career with that employer and some of their European customers.  It kept her "in the game", but she was perpetually dealing with customer culture issues or Mainland time-zone deadline crises.  Otherwise the other overseas military spouses I know are bloggers & authors.

Personally I think it's harder to be the CO's spouse than to be the CO.  You give up your identity for that of the command.  You get all the personnel crises and disasters, the rules of conduct are always confusing, you can't send anyone to mast, and they won't let you shoot at anything.  However it's possible that if your spouse's command includes women servicemembers, then you may have a male military spouse in there somewhere who's not sure how welcome he'd be at your command spouse's club functions.  If you reach out to him and find out what he wants to do, and make him welcome, then you'll get a lot of grateful support.

I was an Admiral's Aide for ADM Roughead when he was a 1-2 Star.  He described the flag bridge of the carrier once as Flag Officer Day Care:  Lots of screens, buttons and dials that don't do anything so I can't break anything important.

Y'know, I only spew coffee out my nose a couple times a year now-- thanks for that visual image of the flag bridge! 

When I'm getting thrashed in the surf, and I see all the old surfers lined up on the seawall commenting on our technique, it still reminds me of Vulture's Row...

My daughter's NROTC unit had about 30 minutes with Roughead when he was CNO.  He really pumped them up, and she was thrilled to get a four-star coin.

On the issue of time in grade waivers, the Aviation side of the Navy is not currently granting them for 06 because of the number of Aviators filling general 1100 billets.

Thanks-- I'll add that to the blog.  It sounds like a drawdown turf battle that's going to end badly...

[Nords]

Ha ha! Also cracked me up. I did a very short stint (2 or 3 months) as a (coast guard) Admirals driver in Honolulu while I waited for my new ship to arrive home from patrol so I kind of can see this.  And yes Nords, he lived at the lighthouse on Diamond Head where I picked him up every morning. It was actually the worst duty I had while in the CG (hated it since I liked to be onboard ships and at sea) but was interesting.

Retiree story:
A shipmate was on Pentagon duty and wanted to attend the retirement ceremony of the CINCPACFLT admiral.  Luckily SECNAV was coming to Pearl Harbor to do the honors, so she hitched a ride on his VIP plane.  It was her first vacation from the Pentagon in over 15 months.  She was going to stay at our house, attend the ceremony, spend the weekend drinking heavily with us, and fly back home with the SECNAV.

The plane was scheduled to land at Hickam at 3 AM.  I showed up in civilian clothes and got some funny looks at the runway terminal (surf attire, two-day stubble, probably needed a haircut) but they inspected my ID and bought my story.  I was sitting outside of the VIP lounge when the Hickam VIPs and the Navy admirals started filing in... more funny looks.  Finally an E-6 in crackerjack whites trailed in and sat outside on my bench.

I commented that he must not be a VIP either... he nodded morosely... so I asked "What'cha doin' here with the group?"
Him:  "Duty driver for SECNAV."
Me:  "Duty drivers are usually an E-3.  What did you do to get assigned to that job?"
Him:  "It wasn't me.  Last time SECNAV was here, the duty driver WAS an E-3.  SECNAV got in the car, they started driving, and SECNAV asked the young lad how he liked being in the Navy.  The E-3 saw his chance and said 'Sir, it sucks!' and reeled off his litany of complaints while SECNAV's aide took copious notes.  Our CO spent weeks dealing with the scrutiny.  So from now on, our command's SECNAV duty driver is senior enough to know how to represent the command and the Navy."

I've always wondered if SECNAV asked why an E-6 was his duty driver, but he probably already knew the answer...

[Spartana]

Ha ha! Also cracked me up. I did a very short stint (2 or 3 months) as a (coast guard) Admirals driver in Honolulu while I waited for my new ship to arrive home from patrol so I kind of can see this.  And yes Nords, he lived at the lighthouse on Diamond Head where I picked him up every morning. It was actually the worst duty I had while in the CG (hated it since I liked to be onboard ships and at sea) but was interesting.

Retiree story:
A shipmate was on Pentagon duty and wanted to attend the retirement ceremony of the CINCPACFLT admiral.  Luckily SECNAV was coming to Pearl Harbor to do the honors, so she hitched a ride on his VIP plane.  It was her first vacation from the Pentagon in over 15 months.  She was going to stay at our house, attend the ceremony, spend the weekend drinking heavily with us, and fly back home with the SECNAV.

I'd been retired for several years.  The plane was scheduled to land at Hickam at 3 AM.  I got some funny looks at the runway terminal (surf attire, ponytail, three-day beard) but they inspected my ID and bought my story.  I was sitting outside of the VIP lounge when the Hickam VIPs and the Navy admirals started filing in... more funny looks.  Finally an E-6 in crackerjack whites trailed in and sat outside on my bench.

I commented that he must not be a VIP either... he nodded morosely... so I asked "What'cha doin' here with the group?"
Him:  "Duty driver for SECNAV."
Me:  "When I was on active duty, the duty driver was usually an E-3.  What did you do to get assigned to that job?"
Him:  "It wasn't me.  Last time SECNAV was here, the duty driver WAS an E-3.  SECNAV got in the car, they started driving, and SECNAV asked the young lad how he liked being in the Navy.  The E-3 saw his chance and said 'Sir, it sucks!' and reeled off his litany of complaints while SECNAV's aide took copious notes.  Our CO spent weeks dealing with the scrutiny.  So from now on, our command's SECNAV duty driver is senior enough to know how to represent the command and the Navy..."

I've always wondered if SECNAV asked why an E-6 was his duty driver, but he probably already knew the answer...

Ha! yeah I can see that. I was a very wet behind the ears FA (E-2 ) and just wanted to do something, ANYTHING, beside drive him and his aide around. It was torture. But he was very cool (can't say the same for his aide though) and he very much wanted the "young girl" as his driver. If I hadn't had orders to a ship already I might ended up doing that longer. But having the car with stars above the license plate (and which I took home with me since I was on-call 24/7) got me into a lot military places on Oahu that most people couldn't get into.

[dusty]

"One of my COs (a very centered guy) used to say that every night some retired general or admiral was crying himself to sleep because he only made it as far as Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs."

Hilarious :)

I have to say thank you Nord, it was randomly finding your book that lead me to Jacob's ERE Blog and in turn, Mr Money Mustache so thank you, thank you, thank you.

I am currently serving in the Australian Navy as a Naval police Coxswain before that as a Military Policeman.  Started off as an idealistic, principled young man but this has eroded away over the years to be replaced by cynicism.  ERE gave me the focus I needed after wasting the first 10 years of my service income.  Prompted me to call my Military Superannuation provider and ask exactly what I would be entitled too when I retire which I found pleasantly surprising.  I then formed my ERE plans which allow me to get out in 10 years.

One of the main factors affecting my decision to leave is that at 15 years we get offered a retention bonus of 1 whole years salary to accept a Return of Service Obligation for the next 5 years.  A whopping great carrot but 5 years is 5 years.  Thankfully I have 5 years before i get the offer so I am wrestling with the decision and crunching the numbers.  I have recently been thinking that if i can get by I will take the hit and get out early but then I realise these thoughts are influenced by existing conditions in the workplace.  When I have  a bad day I want out. When I have a good day i think 10 years is a breeze. So i would encourage everyone to base decisions on facts.  Make a spreadsheet, crunch the numbers and make a decision based on that. Don't make it an emotional one as you will either regret it or burn yourself out. Those working in the military should understand that working beyond your capacity, leads to burn out, and risks the physical safety of the people we command and are responsible for.

"I commented that he must not be a VIP either... he nodded morosely... so I asked "What'cha doin' here with the group?"
Him:  "Duty driver for SECNAV."
Me:  "When I was on active duty, the duty driver was usually an E-3.  What did you do to get assigned to that job?"
Him:  "It wasn't me.  Last time SECNAV was here, the duty driver WAS an E-3.  SECNAV got in the car, they started driving, and SECNAV asked the young lad how he liked being in the Navy.  The E-3 saw his chance and said 'Sir, it sucks!' and reeled off his litany of complaints while SECNAV's aide took copious notes.  Our CO spent weeks dealing with the scrutiny.  So from now on, our command's SECNAV duty driver is senior enough to know how to represent the command and the Navy..."

Hehe - Only days ago we had a 'big wig' visit and me and the command team spent the days before muzzling the more outspoken members of the crew.  Gotta get it into the young guys that its, 'yes Sir, No sir, three bags full sir' - dont ask a signle bloody question or the whole crew stands around all day listening to bullshit answers.

Anyway, thanks Nord.


 

[Workinghard]

Great advice for everyone! I find the closer we get to our goal, the easier it gets. We can see the prize at the end.

http://

 I have recently been thinking that if i can get by I will take the hit and get out early but then I realise these thoughts are influenced by existing conditions in the workplace.  When I have  a bad day I want out. When I have a good day i think 10 years is a breeze. So i would encourage everyone to base decisions on facts.  Make a spreadsheet, crunch the numbers and make a decision based on that. Don't make it an emotional one as you will either regret it or burn yourself out.

Anyway, thanks Nord.

[Boz86]

A shipmate was on Pentagon duty and wanted to attend the retirement ceremony of the CINCPACFLT admiral.  Luckily SECNAV was coming to Pearl Harbor to do the honors, so she hitched a ride on his VIP plane.

Wonder if I was the pilot on the plane? Had my O-5 command of that squadron.

And yes, watching the hosts around the 4 stars and SecNav was entertaining.

[dude]

In some ways, growing a ponytail after I retired has made sure that I'm never tempted to dress up in my uniform again.

haha!  Yeah, when I got out after six years, I did the same thing!  I refused to get a haircut for nearly 2 years, and wore a ponytail.  It was my was of re-establishing my autonomy after 6 years of people telling me to cut my hair (I was always stretching the bounds of Navy regs on the hair!).  30 years on now, I sure miss that ponytail, or rather, my hair!!!

(almost did go back in though after law school, as a JAG officer, but decided against it)

[dude]

Ha ha! Also cracked me up. I did a very short stint (2 or 3 months) as a (coast guard) Admirals driver in Honolulu while I waited for my new ship to arrive home from patrol so I kind of can see this.  And yes Nords, he lived at the lighthouse on Diamond Head where I picked him up every morning. It was actually the worst duty I had while in the CG (hated it since I liked to be onboard ships and at sea) but was interesting.

Retiree story:
A shipmate was on Pentagon duty and wanted to attend the retirement ceremony of the CINCPACFLT admiral.  Luckily SECNAV was coming to Pearl Harbor to do the honors, so she hitched a ride on his VIP plane.  It was her first vacation from the Pentagon in over 15 months.  She was going to stay at our house, attend the ceremony, spend the weekend drinking heavily with us, and fly back home with the SECNAV.

I'd been retired for several years.  The plane was scheduled to land at Hickam at 3 AM.  I got some funny looks at the runway terminal (surf attire, ponytail, three-day beard) but they inspected my ID and bought my story.  I was sitting outside of the VIP lounge when the Hickam VIPs and the Navy admirals started filing in... more funny looks.  Finally an E-6 in crackerjack whites trailed in and sat outside on my bench.

I commented that he must not be a VIP either... he nodded morosely... so I asked "What'cha doin' here with the group?"
Him:  "Duty driver for SECNAV."
Me:  "When I was on active duty, the duty driver was usually an E-3.  What did you do to get assigned to that job?"
Him:  "It wasn't me.  Last time SECNAV was here, the duty driver WAS an E-3.  SECNAV got in the car, they started driving, and SECNAV asked the young lad how he liked being in the Navy.  The E-3 saw his chance and said 'Sir, it sucks!' and reeled off his litany of complaints while SECNAV's aide took copious notes.  Our CO spent weeks dealing with the scrutiny.  So from now on, our command's SECNAV duty driver is senior enough to know how to represent the command and the Navy..."

I've always wondered if SECNAV asked why an E-6 was his duty driver, but he probably already knew the answer...

HAHAHA!!! That's hilarious!  I had to drive our CO around a few times.  He was an old salt from Boston -- who wound up a Fleet Admiral in charge during Operation Desert Shield/Storm, IIRC (name was P.J. Coady) -- and just a great guy.  I was an E-5 at the time, but I never felt any fear or intimidation around the big brass, so was able to just be myself and chat casually.  Always enjoyed the Old Man's company.  He was the finest officer I ever served under.

[dude]

wow, this thread got me thinking about the Old Man, so I Googled him.  He passed away in 2008 at the ridiculously young age of 66 from pulmonary fibrosis and lung cancer.  Damn.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/pjcoadyjr.htm

[EricL]

"I commented that he must not be a VIP either... he nodded morosely... so I asked "What'cha doin' here with the group?"
Him:  "Duty driver for SECNAV."
Me:  "When I was on active duty, the duty driver was usually an E-3.  What did you do to get assigned to that job?"
Him:  "It wasn't me.  Last time SECNAV was here, the duty driver WAS an E-3.  SECNAV got in the car, they started driving, and SECNAV asked the young lad how he liked being in the Navy.  The E-3 saw his chance and said 'Sir, it sucks!' and reeled off his litany of complaints while SECNAV's aide took copious notes.  Our CO spent weeks dealing with the scrutiny.  So from now on, our command's SECNAV duty driver is senior enough to know how to represent the command and the Navy..."

HA!  NEVER ask a lower enlisted Soldier their opinion unless you're ready to see your cosy view of the organization get flushed.  But if you can suck it up and seperate the genuine reasons for dissatisfaction from general bitching it can be quite useful.  Privates are horrible at military history and can't prognosticate reliably what will happen tomorrow.  But they're masters of knowing what's going on right now. 

Another motivator for post military careers are guys who retire without much real planning on what to do (like take up surfing) and try and micromanage the wife and HER household from the couch.  Yeah, that's a recipe for disaster.

[Nords]

In some ways, growing a ponytail after I retired has made sure that I'm never tempted to dress up in my uniform again.

haha!  Yeah, when I got out after six years, I did the same thing!  I refused to get a haircut for nearly 2 years, and wore a ponytail.  It was my was of re-establishing my autonomy after 6 years of people telling me to cut my hair (I was always stretching the bounds of Navy regs on the hair!).  30 years on now, I sure miss that ponytail, or rather, my hair!!!

When we'd get underway for a 90-day patrol, we'd cut our hair really short (some would even shave their heads) and then hope that it didn't grow out too fast.  (Submarines don't have assigned barbers.  You usually have one guy who knows how to cut hair, and he's not very interested.)  Beards were Navy regulation until the 1980s but even after that reg changed, during patrol you could also make a small donation to the crew's recreation committee and grow a beard (although it had to fit inside the rubber seal of a gas mask).  You had to shave at the end of the patrol (before the bridge hatch was opened).  When you got back to port you were expected to find time within the next 72 hours to get a haircut from the nearest barber or else the XO would make it your new priority.  So I was "trained" pretty early that the uniform regs were more for the taxpayers than for the troops, and I never took the hair parts very seriously. 

When I retired I realized that for over 40 years people had been deciding how long my hair could be, so my last haircut was 30 April 2002.  The ponytail is about a foot long (depends on humidity & curl) but after five years it stopped growing longer.  Maybe that's related to the length/weight of the individual hairs versus strength, or maybe I lose a little every time I get thrashed by a wave.  It sheds a lot.  I've read that guys shed more hair than women but we don't notice because our hair is usually shorter.

I was ready to cut it off about five years ago when I my spouse informed me that she finds it tremendously attractive.  So I guess I've reverted to letting people tell me how long my hair is going to be, but this time it's worth it! 

wow, this thread got me thinking about the Old Man, so I Googled him.  He passed away in 2008 at the ridiculously young age of 66 from pulmonary fibrosis and lung cancer.  Damn.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/pjcoadyjr.htm

This is happening way too often to military retirees in their 50s and mid-60s.  I wonder if we've figured out all of the hazardous materials that we've been exposed to, or if it's just all those years of tobacco.

[Nords]

Being a female I was allowed to have long hair. I wore it in a bun under my ball cap. Seems like every Chief Eng I was stationed with would carry a big pair of scissors just itching to cut it off :-)! I personally believe females should also have to cut their hair off - or wear it very short - those weren't the rules when I was in. Lots of guys I was stationed with really hated the new beard regs (off with their beards!!) but on long patrols most sort of grew them back unless we hit a liberty port somewhere. Oh liberty ports, how I miss those :-)!

A couple years ago when my daughter was doing her midshipman training aboard USS LOUISIANA (a ballistic missile submarine), they got underway for a patrol.  The guys all paid their money to the recreation committee and filed their no-shave requests with the XO.

I'd already explained this to my daughter, so she shared the practice with the rest of the women midshipmen on board.  Then she went to the XO and asked for "ponytail chits".  The XO was blindsided, of course, but thought it was a great idea.  The crew thought it was pretty funny, too, but the XO wouldn't approve the men's ponytail chits...

The scariest part about having to shave off the beards (1985, I think?) was that you learned who really, really needed to have a beard. 

[Spartana]

 

The scariest part about having to shave off the beards (1985, I think?) was that you learned who really, really needed to have a beard.

I heard some of their kids (and maybe their wives too) didn't recognize them without beards and actually ran off screaming :-)!

[dusty]

hehe having a chuckle reading these posts.

Here in Oz the regs in the army are that you cant grow a beard but you may have a mustache. In the Navy the regs state we can have a beard but no mustache!?!

We have the same routine when we head out on patrol - we call it Lazy Shavers.  Everyone donates a coupla bucks to ships charity and dont have to shave. The women on board don't have to shave either....or they may paint their nails.

At the moment beards are in fashion and we currently have 80% of the crew bearded - I feel bad for the 2 or 3 blokes who are too young to grow anything that resembles a beard but they will grow up :)   

Since finding ERE i have become a little lax in my military bearing and have been pushing the regs to the limit.  I now sport a wavy fringe and whilst my hair doesn't touch my ears it comes damn close - take that authority!

One of my subordinates came back from the barbers with a 'mullet' hair style the other day. Similar to this http://www.laineygossip.com/Hugh-Jackman-posts-photo-of-new-mullet-on-Instagram/29057 just a little more restrained.  Infuriated me as he had studied the dress regs (which have recently changed) and complied with them. After expressing my distaste I let him have it which surprised him and his pride made him keep it for a few weeks before he shaved it off. 

[dusty]

oh and we all fit into our respirators (bearded our not).  I can't stand hearing that argument in support of mandatory shaving.

[Nords]

Back in the 1980s, when only skinheads & hooligans shaved their heads, the height of sophisticated submarine humor was persuading the division newbie to shave his head.  "We're going to be under water for 90 days, nobody in the crew knows how to give a good haircut, you want to look professional, and your hair will grow back before we return to port!"

Um, turns out that after a head shave it's more like nine months than 90 days to the next haircut... I guess they'd get through two patrols before they needed a trim!

oh and we all fit into our respirators (bearded our not).  I can't stand hearing that argument in support of mandatory shaving.

I always figured that if a fire broke out, the problem would be self-correcting.

[mm1970]

I am enjoying this thread immensely!

Personally I think it's harder to be the CO's spouse than to be the CO.  You give up your identity for that of the command.  You get all the personnel crises and disasters, the rules of conduct are always confusing, you can't send anyone to mast, and they won't let you shoot at anything.  However it's possible that if your spouse's command includes women servicemembers, then you may have a male military spouse in there somewhere who's not sure how welcome he'd be at your command spouse's club functions.  If you reach out to him and find out what he wants to do, and make him welcome, then you'll get a lot of grateful support.

This is a very good point.  One of my good friends from the Navy met her spouse in the Navy.  We were NR, so just a 5 year tour and out.  Her husband is a submariner who did an O-3 shore tour at NR, which is how they met.

She has been saying that this is the "last sea tour" for a few times.  XO tour, then CO tour.  He just finished his 2nd CO tour (bigger boat this time) and is back on shore.  I went to the change in command ceremony when he left his first CO tour, and I heard the stories of all the work she had to do as the CO's wife.  And she was wondering how it was going to work for the new CO, because his wife was a small business owner (new wife) who was not at all interested in the "CO's wife job".

It will be interesting to see if he actually retires after the shore tour.  She really wants to move back to Colorado.  They've been married since the 1990's.  She has her MBA, but hasn't really worked outside the home.  But considering the work involved with 2 kids and being a CO's wife, I can see why.

[Nords]

And she was wondering how it was going to work for the new CO, because his wife was a small business owner (new wife) who was not at all interested in the "CO's wife job".

This is happening much more often these days, and I hope the command leaders got together to answer the question "Who's going to lead the Family Readiness Group?"  It doesn't have to be the CO's spouse, the XO's spouse, or even the COB's spouse. 

My spouse volunteers with United Through Reading, and she works with a lot of Hawaii FRGs.  The submarine FRGs are actually beginning to consolidate among squadrons because there aren't enough spouses in some crews who are both interested and available to help out with the boat's FRG.  And, of course, a lot of routine business that used to require mustering the FRG (or mobilizing the phone tree) can now easily be handled with a post to the Facebook group.

I know waaaaay too many military retirees who "retire" to Colorado and end up getting sucked into the NORTHCOM vortex... maybe the drawdown is starting to throttle that.

[Villanelle]

I am enjoying this thread immensely!

Personally I think it's harder to be the CO's spouse than to be the CO.  You give up your identity for that of the command.  You get all the personnel crises and disasters, the rules of conduct are always confusing, you can't send anyone to mast, and they won't let you shoot at anything.  However it's possible that if your spouse's command includes women servicemembers, then you may have a male military spouse in there somewhere who's not sure how welcome he'd be at your command spouse's club functions.  If you reach out to him and find out what he wants to do, and make him welcome, then you'll get a lot of grateful support.

This is a very good point.  One of my good friends from the Navy met her spouse in the Navy.  We were NR, so just a 5 year tour and out.  Her husband is a submariner who did an O-3 shore tour at NR, which is how they met.

She has been saying that this is the "last sea tour" for a few times.  XO tour, then CO tour.  He just finished his 2nd CO tour (bigger boat this time) and is back on shore.  I went to the change in command ceremony when he left his first CO tour, and I heard the stories of all the work she had to do as the CO's wife.  And she was wondering how it was going to work for the new CO, because his wife was a small business owner (new wife) who was not at all interested in the "CO's wife job".

It will be interesting to see if he actually retires after the shore tour.  She really wants to move back to Colorado.  They've been married since the 1990's.  She has her MBA, but hasn't really worked outside the home.  But considering the work involved with 2 kids and being a CO's wife, I can see why.

DH's community is a bit different.  A CO tour of an aviation squadron actually consists of 15 months as XO, and then 15 months as CO.

I have friends doing it now, and the wife has given me a list of gifts I am expected to buy.  It's literally hundreds of dollars, even if I go pretty cheap.  A welcome gift for every new spouse, hostess gift for each monthly meeting host, baby gift for all newborns, birthday gift for every spouse, Christmas gift for every spouse, and then a gift for every incoming CO spouse from all the squadrons on base, as well as a few others.  That alone is just insane.  It's not like that Stateside, but the overseas bases seem to make everything a bigger deal.
.
And the meetings!  She spend ~10+ hours a week going to meetings and functions she's expected to attend.  Crazy.

I plan on teaching English again (loved it last time, and the money is phenomenal) and maybe doing an online graduate program.  And if that means missing the monthly ombudsmen meeting or the CoC for another command on base, so be it. 

DH was at a command for a while where the CO wasn't married.  That just meant the usual COW (yes, that's actually what they are called!) responsibilities when to the XO's wife, so she had to do it all for 30 months, instead of 15. 

[Spartana]

I often wonder if a male spouse of an XO or CO would end up doing all the things a female spouse would? Probably not. It seems like there is a very strong double standard that still exists in the military when it comes to that and that female spouse have a very high level of expectation on their time. I was never a "military wife" in the traditional sense even though I was married to a service member but we were both active duty at the same time, but I have a very high regard and admiration for military spouses of both sexes as I think it is a very tough life to live. Kudos to you all!

[Spartana]

oh and we all fit into our respirators (bearded our not).  I can't stand hearing that argument in support of mandatory shaving.

I had a "pin head" (i.e. small head) and had a hard time getting a seal on my respirator because of that (and oh the nick names that followed :-)!) where as the guys with beards seemed to be OK. Of course back in the olden days before the beard regs changed (pre-1985) we used OBA's (oxygen breathing apparatus) instead of SCUBA type for fire fighting (and EEBD's in the engine room for fires) and those OBA's had these crazy complicated multi-strapped respirators compared to the newer ones used now.

ETA: I removed the firefighting/recruitment photo I put up in another post because it was just too large and made even my dinky pin-head look ginormous :-)!

[Nords]

I often wonder if a male spouse of an XO or CO would end up doing all the things a female spouse would? Probably not. It seems like there is a very strong double standard that still exists in the military when it comes to that and that female spouse have a very high level of expectation on their time. I was never a "military wife" in the traditional sense even though I was married to a service member but we were both active duty at the same time, but I have a very high regard and admiration for military spouses of both sexes as I think it is a very tough life to live. Kudos to you all!

Don't get me started.  I wish more women could read the stories on the Male Military Spouse's group on Facebook ("The Men's Room"), but they don't qualify for membership. 

First, let's set aside the gender and look at the job of being the "CO's Spouse".  It's not a job.  They're not on the organizational chart or in the chain of command.

Nobody should be spending all of that money, even if they're getting the money from the command recreation committee or MWR funds.  There's no reason to hand out gifts coming & going when coupon books would be more appreciated (and available from the exchanges or Costco for free).  Baby gifts, birthday gifts, holiday gifts-- that's all self-imposed punishment and it takes the guts for some CO's spouse to stand up and say "We're not going to do that anymore".  There's no reason to have monthly meetings if it's a chore.  There's not even a reason to go to the weekly command functions-- it shouldn't be expected at all, but could be excused with "Sorry my spouse couldn't be here, boss, it's been a tough week at work.  I bet you're really looking forward to saying that after you retire, ha-ha!  Um, sorry."

The "problem" is that the CO's spouses are invited to attend a few portions of the prospective CO's training pipeline, and then they get lectured from some curriculum (written in the 19th century by Emily Post's grandmother) on "duties of the CO's spouse".  After that the competitive spirit kicks in ("Hey, the VIRGINIA's spouse does this, how come we're not doing it?!?") and pretty soon the spouse thinks that their support (or lack thereof) will show up in a FITREP or an OER.

Can you imagine the outrage if IBM or GE or Yahoo! or Wal-Mart expected the executive's spouses to do these things? 

I say the CO's spouse should show up for the change of command, the annual ball, the holiday party, the departure/return of deployment, and the next change of command.  It'd be even nicer if their spouse could show up for their promotion to VP or Director, let alone the annual company picnic or retreat.

See how I wrote all of that with gender-neutral pronouns?  I learned to do that not from the military, but from being a male military spouse.

Now, back to the gender issue.

Women (especially women servicemembers) are keenly aware of how welcome women have been in the armed forces.  In the spouse's clubs, there's a similar attitude (about 50% as strong) toward the men.  (Many of the spouse's clubs refuse to change the name from "Wives Club" because it's on their 501(c)3 charter... or their stationery.)  The spouse's club events are heavily oriented toward the majority spouse gender (which is typically 80% female) and nobody has enough experience/practice with men spouses to remember to include them as well.  ("Oh, we'll get them a blue gift bag to go with the pink ones!")  Even then the presentations and discussions are more oriented toward women's concerns, not so much the men's.  The younger women don't care about this issue because... it's not an issue with them.  It doesn't even occur to them, and quite a few of them might feel that the spouse's club is already too girly.  The women who tend to have the biggest issue with male military spouses in the spouse's clubs are the wives of the more senior servicemembers.

There are dozens of stories of "reverse gender bias", but my favorite tale was the guy who showed up at his first spouse's club meeting earlier this year.  (His wife and the rest of the command were on deployment.)  He'd been through a few spouse club experiences before, and his expectations were cynically low.  He was pleasantly surprised at the warm reception he got this time:  everyone wanted to greet him, congratulate him on his marriage, shake his hand, and chat away with him.  It took about 30 minutes for the meet & greet to die down so that the group could get to their first question:  "So what does your husband do with the command?"

It turns out that the women thought that they had their first gay couple in their command.  Once they found out that he was a blatantly heterosexual testosterone-poisoned jerky-chewing sports enthusiast, they lost interest in him.

Another male military spouse problem is, ironically, the military males.  When I go to the commissary with a ponytail and a beard, nobody in uniform even sees me.  I'm just not worth the tracking effort when they have to watch for senior officers or for exchanging salutes or for other servicemembers who might have uniform deficiencies.  But if a male military spouse shows up with a shorter haircut that's a month too long, and then has a three-day stubble to boot, they're frequently accosted by NCOs and quietly lectured on their appearance.  They literally have to pull out their family member ID card (which ironically is colored pink) to show that they're not subject to the uniform regs.  And then the NCO is even more disgusted at wasting their time scolding a ^&%*in' spouse.

This does not excuse all the blatant gender discrimination that women have had to endure over the millennia, and it certainly doesn't make up for it.  But it does show that the bias is more ingrained than we realize.

[Villanelle]

I often wonder if a male spouse of an XO or CO would end up doing all the things a female spouse would? Probably not. It seems like there is a very strong double standard that still exists in the military when it comes to that and that female spouse have a very high level of expectation on their time. I was never a "military wife" in the traditional sense even though I was married to a service member but we were both active duty at the same time, but I have a very high regard and admiration for military spouses of both sexes as I think it is a very tough life to live. Kudos to you all!

Don't get me started.  I wish more women could read the stories on the Male Military Spouse's group on Facebook ("The Men's Room"), but they don't qualify for membership. 

First, let's set aside the gender and look at the job of being the "CO's Spouse".  It's not a job.  They're not on the organizational chart or in the chain of command.

Nobody should be spending all of that money, even if they're getting the money from the command recreation committee or MWR funds.  There's no reason to hand out gifts coming & going when coupon books would be more appreciated (and available from the exchanges or Costco for free).  Baby gifts, birthday gifts, holiday gifts-- that's all self-imposed punishment and it takes the guts for some CO's spouse to stand up and say "We're not going to do that anymore".  There's no reason to have monthly meetings if it's a chore.  There's not even a reason to go to the weekly command functions-- it shouldn't be expected at all, but could be excused with "Sorry my spouse couldn't be here, boss, it's been a tough week at work.  I bet you're really looking forward to saying that after you retire, ha-ha!  Um, sorry."

The "problem" is that the CO's spouses are invited to attend a few portions of the prospective CO's training pipeline, and then they get lectured from some curriculum (written in the 19th century by Emily Post's grandmother) on "duties of the CO's spouse".  After that the competitive spirit kicks in ("Hey, the VIRGINIA's spouse does this, how come we're not doing it?!?") and pretty soon the spouse thinks that their support (or lack thereof) will show up in a FITREP or an OER.

Can you imagine the outrage if IBM or GE or Yahoo! or Wal-Mart expected the executive's spouses to do these things? 

I say the CO's spouse should show up for the change of command, the annual ball, the holiday party, the departure/return of deployment, and the next change of command.  It'd be even nicer if their spouse could show up for their promotion to VP or Director, let alone the annual company picnic or retreat.

See how I wrote all of that with gender-neutral pronouns?  I learned to do that not from the military, but from being a male military spouse.

Now, back to the gender issue.

Women (especially women servicemembers) are keenly aware of how welcome women have been in the armed forces.  In the spouse's clubs, there's a similar attitude (about 50% as strong) toward the men.  (Many of the spouse's clubs refuse to change the name from "Wives Club" because it's on their 501(c)3 charter... or their stationery.)  The spouse's club events are heavily oriented toward the majority spouse gender (which is typically 80% female) and nobody has enough experience/practice with men spouses to remember to include them as well.  ("Oh, we'll get them a blue gift bag to go with the pink ones!")  Even then the presentations and discussions are more oriented toward women's concerns, not so much the men's.  The younger women don't care about this issue because... it's not an issue with them.  It doesn't even occur to them, and quite a few of them might feel that the spouse's club is already too girly.  The women who tend to have the biggest issue with male military spouses in the spouse's clubs are the wives of the more senior servicemembers.

There are dozens of stories of "reverse gender bias", but my favorite tale was the guy who showed up at his first spouse's club meeting earlier this year.  (His wife and the rest of the command were on deployment.)  He'd been through a few spouse club experiences before, and his expectations were cynically low.  He was pleasantly surprised at the warm reception he got this time:  everyone wanted to greet him, congratulate him on his marriage, shake his hand, and chat away with him.  It took about 30 minutes for the meet & greet to die down so that the group could get to their first question:  "So what does your husband do with the command?"

It turns out that the women thought that they had their first gay couple in their command.  Once they found out that he was a blatantly heterosexual testosterone-poisoned jerky-chewing sports enthusiast, they lost interest in him.

Another male military spouse problem is, ironically, the military males.  When I go to the commissary with a ponytail and a beard, nobody in uniform even sees me.  I'm just not worth the tracking effort when they have to watch for senior officers or for exchanging salutes or for other servicemembers who might have uniform deficiencies.  But if a male military spouse shows up with a shorter haircut that's a month too long, and then has a three-day stubble to boot, they're frequently accosted by NCOs and quietly lectured on their appearance.  They literally have to pull out their family member ID card (which ironically is colored pink) to show that they're not subject to the uniform regs.  And then the NCO is even more disgusted at wasting their time scolding a ^&%*in' spouse.

This does not excuse all the blatant gender discrimination that women have had to endure over the millennia, and it certainly doesn't make up for it.  But it does show that the bias is more ingrained than we realize.

I'll say that much of this is very contrary to my experience.  As I said, we had several male spouses and a few of them were pretty involved.   They attended our OSC meetings.  (And yes, we called it the O*S*C, "Spouses").  We didn't really have topics, at meetings, or to the extent that we did, they were "what will we sell at the next fundraiser", "here's a list of people arriving in the next month who might need some help" or "what gift will we purchase for the squadron using our funds".   But our male spouses were as much a part as anyone else.

I wonder if this is, in part, because our group was an OSC, not an FRG.  Aviation, by and large, has not moved to the combined FRG model.  So the group is smaller and more personal.  Everyone sort of knows everyone else, and their active duty spouses as well.  So it's a much more intimate environment.
And we didn't really have topics of discussion, because it was a small group and more focused on the business of the club, not the deployment and family support piece of things.   Whatever the reason, your experiences are definitely different from mine.  I have more than my share of issues with the OSC, but being accepting of men has never been one of them.

You mention "weekly command functions".  That, to me, suggests the the worlds (aviation vs. subs?) are very different.  We've never had any sort of weekly spouses meeting at any command DH has been at.  There's been a monthly OSC meeting, and that's it.  And 15-75% of the spouses have attended regularly (depending on the command, with overseas being far better attended), and there was never an issue.  Until we were OCONUS, I attended maybe 2-4 meetings per year, and that was largely just so I'd know a few people when I went to social functions.  There was never any real pressure to attend.  No one ever asked why I wasn't there, and in fact, in many cases it was a minority that attended. 

[Spartana]

 
 

  "So what does your husband do with the command?"

 

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! OMG that totally cracked me up. Thanks for posting all that as it is all very true and something many of us don't think much about - i.e. the trials of military spouses of either gender.

My (now ex) hubby had a slightly different problem in that he always had to explain my absences from parties, command changes, his promotions, or departures/returns, etc... I went in back in the late 70's when the CG first started opening up ships to females and also dropped their combat restrictions for females so that all jobs were also open  women, but even so women were fairly few. So he was constantly explaining that I was out on patrol and couldn't be there, and that no I was an engineer and on a ship and not on "patrol" in an office. So for the most part both he and I were left out of the pressure to do spousal things for support. Which was a huge relief for me (and I'm sure him too) as that's not something I would have enjoyed.

But I do wonder if those spouses (of either gender) who have been very involved in providing support for their spouses units go thru much of the same withdrawals from the service as their AD spouse? I can imagine that a 20 or 30 year "career" supporting and giving to the military service members and families would be just as fulfilling to them as being in the service - and the loss they feel at their spouses retirement just as great.

[Villanelle]

 
 

  "So what does your husband do with the command?"

 

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! OMG that totally cracked me up. Thanks for posting all that as it is all very true and something many of us don't think much about - i.e. the trials of military spouses of either gender.

My (now ex) hubby had a slightly different problem in that he always had to explain my absences from parties, command changes, his promotions, or departures/returns, etc... I went in back in the late 70's when the CG first started opening up ships to females and also dropped their combat restrictions for females so that all jobs were also open  women, but even so women were fairly few. So he was constantly explaining that I was out on patrol and couldn't be there, and that no I was an engineer and on a ship and not on "patrol" in an office. So for the most part both he and I were left out of the pressure to do spousal things for support. Which was a huge relief for me (and I'm sure him too) as that's not something I would have enjoyed.

But I do wonder if those spouses (of either gender) who have been very involved in providing support for their spouses units go thru much of the same withdrawals from the service as their AD spouse? I can imagine that a 20 or 30 year "career" supporting and giving to the military service members and families would be just as fulfilling to them as being in the service - and the loss they feel at their spouses retirement just as great.

For some, this may be true.  For me, it will be the opposite.  It isn't fulfilling because to me, it isn't really a Thing.   It's DH's job.  Giving up my own career (which I kept until overseas moves made it impossible) is a loss I struggle greatly with.  I may feel sad for DH, but for myself, "loss" is not going to be part of the retirement emotion package. 

[Spartana]

 
 

  "So what does your husband do with the command?"

 

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! OMG that totally cracked me up. Thanks for posting all that as it is all very true and something many of us don't think much about - i.e. the trials of military spouses of either gender.

My (now ex) hubby had a slightly different problem in that he always had to explain my absences from parties, command changes, his promotions, or departures/returns, etc... I went in back in the late 70's when the CG first started opening up ships to females and also dropped their combat restrictions for females so that all jobs were also open  women, but even so women were fairly few. So he was constantly explaining that I was out on patrol and couldn't be there, and that no I was an engineer and on a ship and not on "patrol" in an office. So for the most part both he and I were left out of the pressure to do spousal things for support. Which was a huge relief for me (and I'm sure him too) as that's not something I would have enjoyed.

But I do wonder if those spouses (of either gender) who have been very involved in providing support for their spouses units go thru much of the same withdrawals from the service as their AD spouse? I can imagine that a 20 or 30 year "career" supporting and giving to the military service members and families would be just as fulfilling to them as being in the service - and the loss they feel at their spouses retirement just as great.

For some, this may be true.  For me, it will be the opposite.  It isn't fulfilling because to me, it isn't really a Thing.   It's DH's job.  Giving up my own career (which I kept until overseas moves made it impossible) is a loss I struggle greatly with.  I may feel sad for DH, but for myself, "loss" is not going to be part of the retirement emotion package.

For me it wouldn't have been fulfilling either (the complete opposite actually), but I think that many people - especially older people who lived a more traditional military family life (spouse never had a job outside the home or never had a professional career job) might feel a sense of loss if doing all that stuff was a big part of their life for many years and all of a sudden it was gone due to retirement. I can even see it being a part of the "one more year" syndrome of a spouse wanting the service member to stay in longer.

[EricL]

Spouses are also great motivators to get out - either at retirement or well before.  The constant deployments don't help.

[EricL]

This probably should go on the Anti-Mustachianism Wall of Shame and Comedy but it's more sad than anything else.  I just sat through a retirement finance brief and the briefer explained there would be about a one month delay in paying out the both final active duty paycheck and the first retirement check.  It's just a bureacratic transition between the two pay systems.  It was clear the audience was stressing about this due to debts and creditors.  An audience that included a field grade officer and a senior NCO.  Those two in particular didn't know what their retirement pay would be or even how to find out.  Fortunately, the briefer hooked them up. 

[Nords]

This probably should go on the Anti-Mustachianism Wall of Shame and Comedy but it's more sad than anything else.  I just sat through a retirement finance brief and the briefer explained there would be about a one month delay in paying out the both final active duty paycheck and the first retirement check.  It's just a bureacratic transition between the two pay systems.  It was clear the audience was stressing about this due to debts and creditors.

I saw the same thing in my retirement transition class in 2000.  Apparently nothing has improved!

[Travis]

This probably should go on the Anti-Mustachianism Wall of Shame and Comedy but it's more sad than anything else.  I just sat through a retirement finance brief and the briefer explained there would be about a one month delay in paying out the both final active duty paycheck and the first retirement check.  It's just a bureacratic transition between the two pay systems.  It was clear the audience was stressing about this due to debts and creditors.

I saw the same thing in my retirement transition class in 2000.  Apparently nothing has improved!

For some it only got worse.  The war put a lot of money in troops' pockets.  Some invested it or paid off debts while others just let it create lifestyle inflation.  I've had soldiers who treated deployments like you would a payday loan service trying to get ahead after the garrison spending spree.  It was painful to see them look forward to another deployment as a chance to break even to start the cycle over again.  The last few years I've constantly warned my NCOs "the war is ending, watch your bank accounts."  It's sad when it happens to a junior soldier, it's embarrassing when it happens to a fellow field grade officer.

[RFAAOATB]

As an E4 I remember reading a leadership development book where E9s and O6s had to struggle so hard to go from Battalion to Brigade and advance their careers.  I had some trouble relating to their concerns.  Meanwhile I was giving myself an aneurism wondering where my E5 was at.  Of course now I'm either salivating about where my E6 is while going to PT before work to be as Army Strong as I can.  It's all relative.  One more year for more money is not as powerful a motivator  as one more year to get to the next rung.

I'm in the National Guard now so the money is less of a concern.  Of course I still want the pension at the end but will probably stay beyond 20 if it's still fun and I still got rungs to climb.

[dusty]

My Ex was a Doctor. I am 6ft 2' and she is short..er.  I always found when I accompanied her to functions and we met people who didn't know us I would always be engaged first and treated as the 'Doctor'.  Whenever we flew the air hostess would naturally assume I was the Dr and address me as such.  I found it hilarious and a little embarrassing, my ex didnt like it all.

Whenever we attended events in her workplace I found that her colleagues felt sry for me and  would make an extra effort to talk to me or include me.  I never had the opportunity to attend a national level conference with her but I was curious how it would go - me getting packed off with all the professional's wives to take tours and day spa trips whilst the men held their conference.

Anyway, these are behaviours that are ingrained in our respective cultures;however, they erode day by day.  They are what they are and when you are an emphatic or observant person you can see it occurring around you and act accordingly.