Author Topic: Poor people make poor choices  (Read 9424 times)

Vilx-

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Poor people make poor choices
« on: September 01, 2013, 12:59:02 PM »
An interesting article I found today in BBC News: Poverty significantly saps our mental abilities say researchers. If you're worried a lot about your finances, you get less mental capacity left for solving them (and other problems). Just thought I'd share. :)

avonlea

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 07:47:53 AM »
Thanks for sharing! 

As I was reading the article, it reminded me a little of "The Five Stupidest Habits You Develop Growing Up Poor" by John Cheese.  http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor/

It's far from scientific but he is pretty honest about the poor choices he made during his first two decades of adulthood. Some of his reasoning could be seen as "complainypants", but I liked reading his perspective. He recently escaped poverty and has started changing his habits, some more than others. 

Jamesqf

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 11:35:28 AM »
It's far from scientific but he is pretty honest about the poor choices he made during his first two decades of adulthood.

But those were his choices, not the choices of every person who grew up poor.  Mine were almost exactly the opposite, except perhaps for a bit of the obsessive bean counting.  (And I honestly don't know if that's an effect of growing up poor, or just because that's the way I am, because I tend to count everything, not just money-related stuff.)  So it seems reasonable to ask to what extent those choices were actually his choices, versus behaviors copied from a self-perpetuating poverty culture.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 02:26:28 PM by Jamesqf »

boy_bye

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 12:23:29 PM »
It's far from scientific but he is pretty honest about the poor choices he made during his first two decades of adulthood.

But those were his choices, not the choices of every person who grew up poor ... So it seems reasonable to ask to what extent those choices were actually his choices, versus behaviors copied from a self-perpetuating poverty culture.

Not every person who grew up poor, no, but I think that it's widespread enough that it is it A Thing.

And I think that your last sentence perfectly describes why education is so important, especially for impoverished people -- because it is the thing that lets them see that they are making choices, when to them it just looks and feels like shit is constantly happening to them... It's the only thing that saved me, for sure.

avonlea

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 03:21:59 PM »
It's far from scientific but he is pretty honest about the poor choices he made during his first two decades of adulthood.

But those were his choices, not the choices of every person who grew up poor.  Mine were almost exactly the opposite, except perhaps for a bit of the obsessive bean counting.  (And I honestly don't know if that's an effect of growing up poor, or just because that's the way I am, because I tend to count everything, not just money-related stuff.)  So it seems reasonable to ask to what extent those choices were actually his choices, versus behaviors copied from a self-perpetuating poverty culture.

Even though John Cheese talks in a generalized way, I don't think he believes that all people who grew up poor make the same choices that he did.   There are always people who live counter to their upbringing.  Some people change religions.  Some people change their economic factors.  Some people leave their country of birth.  Overall, though, a lot of people maintain lifestyles that are similar to their childhoods', for good or bad.

I think the purpose of his article was to show why someone who is impoverished might have a tendency to make decisions that seem absurd and counterproductive to those who have never been in that situation.

I just thought John Cheese's words added a little personal touch to the info listed in Vilx's research article.  I really wasn't trying to upset anyone by posting it.  But his title is a little too broad in scope, I admit.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 03:37:35 PM »
I've mentioned the Cheese link here in the past, as it totally spoke to me. I didn't grow up with all of these traits, but the fact that my family stockpiled canned goods and we rarely saw fresh veggies was something that struck a chord. I was fortunate in that I discovered that fresh veggies and not crap tastes amazing, so I guess my palette wasn't completely ruined, but I still crave absolute crap from time to time... and it is always the cheap, full of preservatives junk. And I also always planned for long-term goals, so I don't hoard my savings too badly and I'm okay with risk in investing since I'm in it for the long haul.

Concerning the link from the OP, it's fascinating but comes as no surprise really. When you're poor, your thoughts are going to be consumed with where your next meal is coming from, whether they'll shut off the lights tomorrow, or how will you get to work if your vehicle breaks down... cognitive ability would be severely hampered by all of that stressful brain activity swirling around.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 08:46:25 PM by Frankies Girl »

kkbmustang

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 04:37:59 PM »
but I still crave absolute crap from time to time... and it is always the cheap, full of preservatives junk.

I crave queso made with Velveeta and Rotel. Nothing nutritionally redeeming at all, but still. Comfort food for me.

Jamesqf

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 11:26:29 PM »
Even though John Cheese talks in a generalized way, I don't think he believes that all people who grew up poor make the same choices that he did.   There are always people who live counter to their upbringing.

Though that's true, it wasn't the point I was trying to make.  Rather, it was that he apparently grew up in a particular sort of poverty culture, in which those behaviors were common.  I grew up in a different one, no less poor, but with an entirely different set of cultural behaviors.  For instance, people didn't eat junk food, because they grew their vegetables in their garden, or got things from the woods. 

In other words, it isn't the fact of poverty that generates Cheese's behaviors, but the culture. 

avonlea

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 04:49:02 AM »
That's true, Jamesqf.  You make a good point.

jrhampt

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 09:34:31 AM »
but I still crave absolute crap from time to time... and it is always the cheap, full of preservatives junk.

I crave queso made with Velveeta and Rotel. Nothing nutritionally redeeming at all, but still. Comfort food for me.

Mmm, yes.  And fish stick sandwiches.

dragoncar

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 11:17:49 AM »
The cheese article really clicked with me for behavior I've observed-- the part about needing to spend money on wants before needs (like rent) empty your checking account.

Better spend that money on frivolous purchases before your brain kicks in and makes you use it for responsible purchases.  Stupid brain, why you always getting me down???

Hedge_87

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 11:37:11 AM »
Even though John Cheese talks in a generalized way, I don't think he believes that all people who grew up poor make the same choices that he did.   There are always people who live counter to their upbringing.

Though that's true, it wasn't the point I was trying to make.  Rather, it was that he apparently grew up in a particular sort of poverty culture, in which those behaviors were common.  I grew up in a different one, no less poor, but with an entirely different set of cultural behaviors.  For instance, people didn't eat junk food, because they grew their vegetables in their garden, or got things from the woods. 

In other words, it isn't the fact of poverty that generates Cheese's behaviors, but the culture.

+1
Growing up we didn't have much so we lived off what we could grow and hunt. Growing up in rural American ment we ate deer meat for just about every meal. Every member of my family would fill the maximum amount of tags they would allow us that year. At the end of the season our neighbors all got together to process everything we had And divided it up equally. I never realized we were "poor" until I moved out into the big old world.  We lived in a great community where helping hands where never that far away. After moving away getting a good paying job and getting caught up in the consumerist lifestyle for a couple years. I now realize how lucky I am to have such childhood memory's to put everything back in perspective for me.

Jamesqf

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 11:56:14 AM »
Growing up we didn't have much so we lived off what we could grow and hunt. Growing up in rural American ment we ate deer meat for just about every meal.

Or rabbit, squirrel, woodchuck...

There was also an entirely different attitude towards money.  Think the classic New England Yankee "Make it do, or do without" attitude, instead of the urban "Spend money as soon as you get it".

Frankies Girl

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2013, 03:40:00 PM »
but I still crave absolute crap from time to time... and it is always the cheap, full of preservatives junk.

I crave queso made with Velveeta and Rotel. Nothing nutritionally redeeming at all, but still. Comfort food for me.

Oh god... velveeta. That was definitely a part of my childhood. As was mac & cheese and totino's pizzas and instant mashed potatoes. I remember the first time I ever had real from scratch mashed potatoes and was confused at why they tasted so much better than what I usually got and then when I found out how easy they were to make, it made me question why we always did instant and canned stuff... my mother thought a healthy balanced meal was a slice of white bread, Chef Boyardee ravioli and canned green beans cooked to mush.


NumberJohnny5

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2013, 09:49:53 PM »
Oh god... velveeta. That was definitely a part of my childhood. As was mac & cheese and totino's pizzas and instant mashed potatoes. I remember the first time I ever had real from scratch mashed potatoes and was confused at why they tasted so much better than what I usually got and then when I found out how easy they were to make, it made me question why we always did instant and canned stuff... my mother thought a healthy balanced meal was a slice of white bread, Chef Boyardee ravioli and canned green beans cooked to mush.

I remember the first time my wife made real mashed potatoes for me.

I told her I preferred instant mashed potatoes.

She likes to keep bringing up the fact that I prefer instant mashed potatoes over real, and store-bought super-processed carrot cake (the individually packaged ones) to her made-from-scratch carrot cake. I point out that I could have waited a decade or two and THEN told her.

Jamesqf

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 11:16:22 PM »
I remember the first time I ever had real from scratch mashed potatoes and was confused at why they tasted so much better than what I usually got...

Serious cultural divide here.  I don't believe I've ever had non-real mashed potatos.  (Not that I really approve of mashing potatos - seems like such a cruel thing to do to a tuber that's so much tastier if cooked other ways.)  Was well into adulthood before I realized that there even was such a thing as instant mashed potatos, or that you could get macaroni & cheese in a box...

hybrid

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2013, 01:10:11 PM »
I remember the first time I ever had real from scratch mashed potatoes and was confused at why they tasted so much better than what I usually got...

Serious cultural divide here.  I don't believe I've ever had non-real mashed potatos.  (Not that I really approve of mashing potatos - seems like such a cruel thing to do to a tuber that's so much tastier if cooked other ways.)  Was well into adulthood before I realized that there even was such a thing as instant mashed potatos, or that you could get macaroni & cheese in a box...

Sure sounds like we're talking about the difference between urban and suburban (the new demographic trend) poor and rural poor.  What strikes me is that in rural poor settings, children can contribute much more to the household than in urban settings.  In the country where a wood stove might be the source of heat, a 12 year old can chop firewood.  In the city, a 12 year old can't do a thing about the heat.  In the country, a 13 year old might go hunting with his father for food, while in the city a 13 year old can't do that.  I'm not putting one above the other, it's just different.

Several generations ago when the nation was more rural as a whole a larger family was often economically desirable because children were net assets (more people to work the family farm and the like).  In the developed world that has been completely flipped on its head.  Children have become very expensive and not surprisingly birth rates have plummeted, often well below the 2.1 children rate needed to sustain a population at its current level.  Many European nations now have a rate closer to 1.4.  Japan faces a similar issue.

The same trends are playing out in the developing world.  In sub-Sharan Africa birth rates are falling as the continent slowly develops economically.   

Jamesqf

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 09:01:27 PM »
Sure sounds like we're talking about the difference between urban and suburban (the new demographic trend) poor and rural poor.

Not exclusively, though it does tend to separate out that way.  But I know you can find particular rural subcultures that have improvident norms, and I would guess that there are likewise (sub)urban subcultures (like some recent immigrant groups?) where providence is the norm.

Gen Y Finance Journey

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 01:26:29 PM »
I read the cracked article and made it halfway through the comments here before I realized the writer was John Cheese, not John Cleese. I'm much less confused now.

Jamesqf

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 02:53:05 PM »
But you've merely transferred your confusion to me.

ny.er

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 04:49:21 PM »
But you've merely transferred your confusion to me.

ahem... "Google is your friend."  :)

Jamesqf

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Re: Poor people make poor choices
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2013, 09:20:58 PM »
But you've merely transferred your confusion to me.

It would be if I wanted to know badly enough to bother.  As it is, I am just as happy to remain confused about that sort of thing :-)

ahem... "Google is your friend."  :)