Author Topic: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency  (Read 11908 times)

darkelenchus

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Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« on: July 04, 2012, 09:54:32 PM »
I was looking through old bookmarks and came across some websites that have ideas related to increasing energy efficiency. These were really helpful for us, so I thought I'd share.

Art Tec - Guy Marsden

Build it Solar

I Will Try

Some of you may be familiar with these sites. For those who aren't take some time to look through them or bookmark them for later. They've got a lot of great info!


Nords

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2012, 10:26:13 PM »
These were really helpful for us, so I thought I'd share.
The biggest reduction in our energy use (and spending) happened when we launched our teen from the nest.

We can tell from our electric bill when she was home for a few weeks.

arebelspy

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 08:19:23 AM »
These were really helpful for us, so I thought I'd share.
The biggest reduction in our energy use (and spending) happened when we launched our teen from the nest.

We can tell from our electric bill when she was home for a few weeks.

That's interesting.  Why do you think that is?

Charging electronic gadgets is so tiny (about about $0.25 per year for an iPhone 3G) compared to stuff like a washer/dryer, fridge, A/C, etc.

Does she tend to use the A/C more?  Leave the fridge open for long times rifling through?
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igthebold

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2012, 08:44:43 AM »
The biggest reduction in our energy use (and spending) happened when we launched our teen from the nest.

We can tell from our electric bill when she was home for a few weeks.

That's interesting.  Why do you think that is?

Judging from the teens and teen-like-adults I've seen recently, I'm guessing showers (30 minutes??) and laundry.

Nords

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 09:17:11 PM »
That's interesting.  Why do you think that is?
Does she tend to use the A/C more?  Leave the fridge open for long times rifling through?
Judging from the teens and teen-like-adults I've seen recently, I'm guessing showers (30 minutes??) and laundry.
We love our daughter, and we enjoy having her home for a few weeks, but it is a tremendous lifestyle change.

We have a photovoltaic array that generates more than enough electricity for spouse and me in our empty nest (~240 KWHr/month), so our electric bill usually shows a net-metering graph of monthly energy use around "zero".  We have solar hot water.  Last year we did an energy-efficient renovation in the house's east rooms (windows, insulation, new roof) and a new roof on the house's south roof (2" foam insulation, reflective shingles).  No air conditioning or heating, but tradewind cooling works well and since the renovation we haven't even used our ceiling fans in over six months.  Our fridge is a GE Profile Arctica-- not the most energy-efficient, but it's EnergyStar.  Dishwasher is an EnergyStar KitchenAid and we re-use a lot of our plates/bowls/utensils, so we only run it once or twice a month.  Spouse and I dry most of our clothes on racks instead of the electric dryer, and our "cooking" tends to be heating something in the microwave.  CFLs in just about every lighting fixture.

When our daughter's home, she seems to do laundry about every 48-72 hours.  Part of that is the college backlog, part of it is daily workouts (plus surfing), some of it is frequent wardrobe changes for social purposes.  She plugs in her 1500-gigawatt hair dryer.  Each meal prep (even breakfast) involves a blender, a range burner, an oven, or all of the above.  The dishwasher's running every 3-4 days.  Lights stay on later at night.

So our electric bill will show a monthly graph of zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, *BLAM!* 75 KWHr, zero, zero... it's an impressive spike.  It's 35 cents/KWHr, so it doesn't break the bank, but it certainly shows up.

To her credit, she just moved off-campus and has to share a utility bill (with 2-3 roommates) for the first time in her life.  I suspect there'll be some behavioral change.

arebelspy

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2012, 10:18:24 PM »
Ah, makes sense.

Pretty neat you're able to have it at about 0 usage due to your modifications.
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darkelenchus

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2012, 11:39:45 PM »
It's 35 cents/KWHr, so it doesn't break the bank, but it certainly shows up.

Wow! That's really high compared to Southeastern Wisconsin (ca. 13 cents/kWh).

Nords

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2012, 11:53:36 PM »
Wow! That's really high compared to Southeastern Wisconsin (ca. 13 cents/kWh).
Oahu has the cheapest KWHr rates of all the Hawaii islands.  We haven't quite figured out yet how to extend the grid between the islands, let alone 2500 miles to the east...

But most of the island's homes don't require air conditioning or heating systems, either.  I save a lot of money on winter clothing, too.

Hawaii has the nation's highest per-capita solar water heating, and it's required to be part of all new construction.  And with PV panels about a buck a watt these days, rooftop arrays are popping up all over our neighborhood.  I bet we're at least 10% grid penetration by now.

sol

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 08:27:51 AM »
Wow! That's really high compared to Southeastern Wisconsin (ca. 13 cents/kWh).

And Wisconsin is really high compared to the pacific northwest, where we pay about 6 cents/kWh.  Most of which comes from fossil fuel free hydropower dams.

Of course, those same dams tend to kill millions of endangered species of fish, so it's kind of a trade off.  We get the world's cheapest renewable green energy, but then we pay higher taxes to run fish hatcheries.

grantmeaname

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2012, 09:04:53 AM »
Out of curiosity, do you pay those taxes as part of a general income or property tax, or are they an electricity surcharge?

darkelenchus

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2012, 11:42:55 AM »
Wow! That's really high compared to Southeastern Wisconsin (ca. 13 cents/kWh).
Oahu has the cheapest KWHr rates of all the Hawaii islands.  We haven't quite figured out yet how to extend the grid between the islands, let alone 2500 miles to the east...

But most of the island's homes don't require air conditioning or heating systems, either.  I save a lot of money on winter clothing, too.

Hawaii has the nation's highest per-capita solar water heating, and it's required to be part of all new construction.  And with PV panels about a buck a watt these days, rooftop arrays are popping up all over our neighborhood.  I bet we're at least 10% grid penetration by now.

Yeah, with nearly no heating & air conditioning costs, no real need for winter clothes, and the solar-friendly cost and environment, I can see why it may actually be cheaper there, despite the electricity prices being nearly triple what they are here.

Solar panels seem especially like a good deal there. Unfortunately, it's too cloudy here to be worth the hassle.

And Wisconsin is really high compared to the pacific northwest, where we pay about 6 cents/kWh....

Interesting. Is electricity cheaper than natural gas, then? Also, like Grant I'm interested in what sort of impact the hatcheries have on taxes.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 11:44:53 AM by darkelenchus »

Nords

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2012, 08:40:24 PM »
Solar panels seem especially like a good deal there. Unfortunately, it's too cloudy here to be worth the hassle.
You may be right, but you might want to check an insolation map and review your state's tax credits.  It's a tad more quantitative than "cloudy".

We easily generate over 1000 watts/hour on some cloudy days.  Even when it's raining we'll be generating over 200 watts.

The reason I suggest the state's tax credits is because New Jersey used to (might still) have one of the nation's most generous solar subsidies.  I don't know how their latitude & weather compares to yours, but the tax credits might make up the difference.
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darkelenchus

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2012, 09:59:43 PM »
Solar panels seem especially like a good deal there. Unfortunately, it's too cloudy here to be worth the hassle.
You may be right, but you might want to check an insolation map and review your state's tax credits.  It's a tad more quantitative than "cloudy".

It is indeed more quantitative than that. Last time I ran the numbers (Feb 2011, just after we moved in), an approx. 500 sq. ft system would have a 23 year ROI. Prices have dropped since then, so I'm fairly sure that number's lower now. There's no tax credit for Wisconsin. The state does offer a rebate, but to a limited group. I don't know how they make the selection.

We live in a townhouse and when I raised the question of installing solar panels to our neighbor, he got all fussy and said something about them ruining the roof & lowering property taxes. I assured him there shouldn't be any real issues with either (in fact, solar panels can increase property value), but apparently he just didn't like the idea, because he's been closed off to it whenever it comes up. 

sol

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2012, 11:17:48 PM »
Last time I ran the numbers (Feb 2011, just after we moved in), an approx. 500 sq. ft system would have a 23 year ROI.

What's the ROI time of not installing them?  Is infinity a good guess?  You just pay for power forever?

I'm always confused when people disparage home solar because they think it will take too long to recoup their investment, as if they are comparing it to something with a better ROI.  The payback time for buying your power from the power company is never.  It's like saying you don't want to buy a house because it will take you 30 years to pay off the mortgage, so you'd rather pay market rate rents indefinitely. 

As long as the system lasts 1 day longer than your ROI time, you've come out ahead.  Rising power rates in the future just sweeten the deal.


Nords

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2012, 12:17:40 AM »
It is indeed more quantitative than that. Last time I ran the numbers (Feb 2011, just after we moved in), an approx. 500 sq. ft system would have a 23 year ROI. Prices have dropped since then, so I'm fairly sure that number's lower now. There's no tax credit for Wisconsin. The state does offer a rebate, but to a limited group. I don't know how they make the selection.
We live in a townhouse and when I raised the question of installing solar panels to our neighbor, he got all fussy and said something about them ruining the roof & lowering property taxes. I assured him there shouldn't be any real issues with either (in fact, solar panels can increase property value), but apparently he just didn't like the idea, because he's been closed off to it whenever it comes up.
Photovoltaic panels have dropped to about a buck a watt retail, but I don't know if that's a significant change to your ROI.  Panels have dramatically improved in power density, too, so you might be able to get more power for 500 sq ft or fit your desired power into a smaller area.

But if you have to depend on a neighbor's cooperation then it may take a stack of sales literature to change their mind.  Of course an installer would love to give you guys a break on a twofer.  However a stubborn homeowner can make it more hassle than it's worth.

What's the ROI time of not installing them?  Is infinity a good guess?  You just pay for power forever?
I'm always confused when people disparage home solar because they think it will take too long to recoup their investment, as if they are comparing it to something with a better ROI.  The payback time for buying your power from the power company is never.  It's like saying you don't want to buy a house because it will take you 30 years to pay off the mortgage, so you'd rather pay market rate rents indefinitely. 
As long as the system lasts 1 day longer than your ROI time, you've come out ahead.  Rising power rates in the future just sweeten the deal.
Actually "not installing" makes sense when the median stay in a home is seven years.  Home buyers just will not pay for photovoltaic.  Ignorant buyers fear it and educated buyers know that they can negotiate a discount.  If a homeowner installs $20K worth of PV and raises the selling price of the home by $20K, even the appraiser will discount it for depreciation & comps.

If you know you're staying for 23 years then... maybe.  Or if you suspect that electric prices are going to jump with inflation then... maybe.  If you can do your own mechanical work and hire an electrician to make the connections and sign the net-metering agreement then... it's worth considering.  But otherwise there's too many uncertainties to take the risk.

darkelenchus

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2012, 09:38:13 AM »
Last time I ran the numbers (Feb 2011, just after we moved in), an approx. 500 sq. ft system would have a 23 year ROI.

What's the ROI time of not installing them?  Is infinity a good guess?  You just pay for power forever?

I'm always confused when people disparage home solar because they think it will take too long to recoup their investment, as if they are comparing it to something with a better ROI.  The payback time for buying your power from the power company is never.  It's like saying you don't want to buy a house because it will take you 30 years to pay off the mortgage, so you'd rather pay market rate rents indefinitely. 

As long as the system lasts 1 day longer than your ROI time, you've come out ahead.  Rising power rates in the future just sweeten the deal.

I may have left the wrong impression. I actually want to install solar panels. What deters me isn't really the ROI time. It's more the neighbor's unwillingness, the uncertainties highlighted by Nords, and the potential for a better ROI time as future PV panel prices drop (similar reasoning to MMM's LED article) . Plus, I've read numerous sources that cite the lifespan of PV panels as ranging between 20 and 40 years. Under the worse case scenario, then, I may never get to see that return. Granted, I don't know how likely the worse case scenario is, so with further information this might be a moot point.

arebelspy

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2012, 10:11:10 AM »
Last time I ran the numbers (Feb 2011, just after we moved in), an approx. 500 sq. ft system would have a 23 year ROI.

What's the ROI time of not installing them?  Is infinity a good guess?  You just pay for power forever?

I'm always confused when people disparage home solar because they think it will take too long to recoup their investment, as if they are comparing it to something with a better ROI.
The payback time for buying your power from the power company is never.  It's like saying you don't want to buy a house because it will take you 30 years to pay off the mortgage, so you'd rather pay market rate rents indefinitely. 

As long as the system lasts 1 day longer than your ROI time, you've come out ahead.  Rising power rates in the future just sweeten the deal.

I disagree, if we're talking a strictly financial sense.   You should be comparing it to something, rather than just saying the ROI is 23 years (or whatever). The ROI would be compared to an investment.

Say I stick the 20k solar panels would cost me into dividend stocks.  If the dividends pay for my energy costs, I'm likely coming out ahead of the solar investment.

23 years to recoup an investment is about 3%/yr.  If you can get more than that investing, then the ROI on the solar panels isn't a good deal.

Now this obviously ignores environmental factors, etc.  There may be other reasons you want to do it.  But if you have 20k to pay for solar panels, and you could instead invest it.. that's the ROI you would compare it to, if you just want to know in a strictly financial sense.
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darkelenchus

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2012, 11:41:42 AM »
The ROI would be compared to an investment.

Yes, this is another factor we took into consideration.

Nords

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2012, 05:16:36 PM »
Plus, I've read numerous sources that cite the lifespan of PV panels as ranging between 20 and 40 years.
It astounds me that PV manufacturers can so confidently predict how long last year's model will last.  Kinda hard to do life-cycle testing on something that just sits on a roof getting blasted by UV all day.  Maybe that's just their swag for warranty & insurance coverage.

The 1970s panels are just reaching 40 years.  That's like predicting the longevity of any of today's vehicles by comparing them to a 1970s vehicle.

I have several panels that are pushing 20 (or may be past it).  No observable decline, at least none that I can detect with my rudimentary gear.  Compared to the other issues involved with ROI, longevity isn't worth the worry.

darkelenchus

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2012, 07:02:31 PM »
I have several panels that are pushing 20 (or may be past it).  No observable decline, at least none that I can detect with my rudimentary gear.  Compared to the other issues involved with ROI, longevity isn't worth the worry.

Good to know.

igthebold

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2012, 08:34:56 AM »
Photovoltaic panels have dropped to about a buck a watt retail, but I don't know if that's a significant change to your ROI.

My family is using about 25kWh/day at this point (trying to get it down). If I were to spend $1000, it sounds like I could buy at least the panels to provide a max of 24kWh/day (assuming a steady energy draw, which we don't have, of course). Is that correct? What are the other costs involved? Installation, obviously. Fixed costs like meters and infrastructure to get the power into the house. What would those cost for a 1kW system?

Feel free to respond with, "read article X." I honestly have done very little research, since I've always just dismissed PV as a possibility here in NC. Plus, right now electricity costs me $0.11/kWh, but I don't know how long that'll last.

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2012, 07:21:01 PM »
Photovoltaic panels have dropped to about a buck a watt retail, but I don't know if that's a significant change to your ROI.
My family is using about 25kWh/day at this point (trying to get it down). If I were to spend $1000, it sounds like I could buy at least the panels to provide a max of 24kWh/day (assuming a steady energy draw, which we don't have, of course). Is that correct? What are the other costs involved? Installation, obviously. Fixed costs like meters and infrastructure to get the power into the house. What would those cost for a 1kW system?
Feel free to respond with, "read article X." I honestly have done very little research, since I've always just dismissed PV as a possibility here in NC. Plus, right now electricity costs me $0.11/kWh, but I don't know how long that'll last.
Part of the problem is that the sun only shines for about half the day (minus clouds & rain), and solar insolation drops off with the sine of the latitude. 

We generate (and consume) roughly an annualized amount of 250 KWHr/month.  (It's a round number.)  We've installed 3350 watts of panels to do that. 

You're consuming 25 KWHr/day or 750 KWHr/month.  By our ratio, at our insolation for our latitude, you'd need about 10,000 watts of panels.  If you're further north than I am (and just about everybody in the rest of the U.S. is) then you could easily be looking at 12KW-14KW.  The local PV installers in your area have websites linked to PV calculators that will help you determine a more accurate number.

That's just the cost of the panels, too, not the microinverters (or 2-3 string inverters) or the racks or the mounts or the wiring or the conduit.  Then there's the electrician's labor and the cost of the construction permit.

For every dollar you save on consumption, that's several dollars you won't have to spend on installation.  It makes much more sense for you to start with an energy audit, insulation, heavy-duty windows, CFLs, and all the improvements that I remember MMM has blogged about.  You'll probably find a way to reduce your air-conditioning & heating bills, too.  Then start with solar water heating.  When you reach your new average energy consumption, you'll probably only need 7-8 KW. 

Better still, in the next year or two I suspect that PV will only get cheaper.  The global manufacturers have ramped up production just as countries have started to cut back on subsidies and people have slowed their buying.  It'll take another year or two to get through the overhang, and that gives you the time to make your house much more efficient.

BTW some parts of the country pay tiered rates for electricity.  One Mainland friend is only installing enough PV to cover his most expensive tiers of electricity, which should also cover most of his utility inflation.  That might work for you if your utility charges tiered rates.

igthebold

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2012, 09:50:03 AM »
Thanks Nords. That was very helpful, and makes a lot of sense. My main goal right now is to continue cutting consumption. Sounds like PV might not be the best option for us at this point.

Incidentally, I don't know if my utility tiers rates. I'll have to find that out. Maybe that's why I'm getting a $0.11/kWh rate right now.

darkelenchus

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Re: Information About Increasing Energy Efficiency
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2012, 12:15:28 PM »
Another one I forgot to add: Michael Bluejay. He covers way more Mustachian topics than energy efficiency (e.g. biking, real estate, etc.).