60 Minutes: Dropping out: Is college worth the cost?

[MacGyverIt]

Interesting concept and I agree with a lot of what this fella is saying. Most of my professional career didn't involve a college degree and I made a lot of money without college debt. I went to college years later than my peers and then joined the "credentialed" ...but I'm not convinced everyone is so fortunate.

Here are some excerpts from the article about fellowships for innovators, link is below:
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"And they're actually not any better off after having gone to college; they typically are worse off because they've amassed all this debt."
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"If your life plan is to be a professor or to be a doctor or some other career where you need a specific credential you should and probably have to go to college. If your plan is to do something very different you should think really hard about it."
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Alex Kiselev is not a Harvard man. He was at a community college when he won his fellowship with a plan to manufacture scientific instruments more cheaply.

Alex Kiselev: Looking at how my parents went through debt, it's really debilitating for the first five to 10, even maybe 15, 20 years of your life. Especially if you don't find a very high-paying job, as is always promised.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57436775/dropping-out-is-college-worth-the-cost/?tag=contentMain;contentBody

NOTE: link to video of story on first page under:
Web Extras
Dropping out: Is college worth the cost?
Meet the kids who were paid to drop out

[MacGyverIt]

Interesting concept and I agree with a lot of what this fella is saying. Most of my professional career didn't involve a college degree and I made a lot of money without college debt. I went to college years later than my peers and then joined the "credentialed" ...but I'm not convinced everyone is so fortunate.

Here are some excerpts from the article about fellowships for innovators, link is below:
--------------
"And they're actually not any better off after having gone to college; they typically are worse off because they've amassed all this debt."
--------------
"If your life plan is to be a professor or to be a doctor or some other career where you need a specific credential you should and probably have to go to college. If your plan is to do something very different you should think really hard about it."
--------------
Alex Kiselev is not a Harvard man. He was at a community college when he won his fellowship with a plan to manufacture scientific instruments more cheaply.

Alex Kiselev: Looking at how my parents went through debt, it's really debilitating for the first five to 10, even maybe 15, 20 years of your life. Especially if you don't find a very high-paying job, as is always promised.
---------------
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57436775/dropping-out-is-college-worth-the-cost/?tag=contentMain;contentBody

NOTE: link to video of story on first page under:
Web Extras
Dropping out: Is college worth the cost?
Meet the kids who were paid to drop out

Oh! And an awesome Roger Waters interview if you scroll down a bit further down!!!

[gooki]

Thanks for the link.

[menorman]

I cannot say I disagree with the general premise here. That being said, college can have big benefits in earning potentials for the average person. Obviously, there are some exceptions to everything. That being said, modern society is quite oblivious to the financial state it is in. People in college want to live the lives they may have enjoyed at home and so either take out loans to do it (so they can use the money they earn from any job as "spending money") or expect their parents to. Then, the same mindset continues after graduation. Now I'm aware that not everyone gets their dream job right out of college, but most people still get a job that pays enough to allow them to at least make some sort of dent on their loans. Will they be able to live like a king while doing it? No, but if they want a kingly life then discharging their debt should be their chief pursuit. Of course, that would be bad for the economy in present form, so you won't hear Obama suggesting that anytime soon. Additionally, after they do finally get a better job, most graduates practice lifestyle inflation instead of focusing on eliminating their debt in entirety as soon as possible.

[MrSaturday]

I went the cheap and quick route and got an associates in electronics in a 15-month program.  Now I'm a senior software engineer even though I have zero formal schooling since I was 19.

A degree is the official stamp of approval that says you put in the prerequisite time and cash to get some sort of formal training, but an individual willing to learn on a daily basis can still get ahead without a big framed diploma.

[mm1970]

I went the cheap and quick route and got an associates in electronics in a 15-month program.  Now I'm a senior software engineer even though I have zero formal schooling since I was 19.

A degree is the official stamp of approval that says you put in the prerequisite time and cash to get some sort of formal training, but an individual willing to learn on a daily basis can still get ahead without a big framed diploma.

Yeah, and that kind of depends on where you work.  I've worked with some great manufacturing engineers who learned on the job and never had a degree.  The right person can learn.  I've had bosses who do PhD-level research and development, and understand the deepest level of semiconductor physics with a bachelor's degree, because that's how they are. 

But there's still a bit of a stigma at my company.  In a place that was founded by PhD's, they focus so much on education.  "That kid is really bright, he could go far - why didn't he go to school?"  "That guy is applying for an engineering job.  He's 36 with no kids, why didn't he take the time to go to school nights to get his degree?"  Some places, you have to play the game.  And it's not just the PhD's making the judgments.  The HR manager went to school nights while working, and has the same attitude.  I got my master's at night while working FT days in my 20's.  Dangit, it was really hard work.  Some people aren't up for that, especially if they have kids.

[MrSaturday]

Oh I agree.  It helps a lot that I'm in an industry where experience trumps education.  My boss has more education than I do but the next 4 guys up the management chain all have less.

[Bakari]

This is all assuming that the purpose of education is to get a high paying job.

In the old days, when formal college education was invented, to get a doctorate meant that you were well versed in all areas of human knowledge.
A Doctor of philosophy would be expected to understand the physical sciences, art, literature, philosophy, mathematics, maybe even a couple foreign languages.

The point of education is to learn, and be a more well-rounded person.
To understand the world around you on all its many levels.

This is necessary not just to get an interesting job, but to be a responsible citizen (you can't make informed decisions on who or what to vote for if you don't understand the context of the issues being debated), to make smart personal choices in everything to consumer purchases to health care, and even just to know when something someone is telling you or something you read is a load of BS.

Of course its possible to learn everything they teach in school on one's own, but very few have the discipline it would take to get all of the concentrated knowledge on such disparate fields as you need to get an associates degree in liberal arts in just 2 years.

Unfortunately, the higher you go, instead of learning more about the world at large and getting more well rounded knowledge and understanding, the modern world makes education more and more specialized, so that in the end many of the most educated people seem to have as much trouble seeing the "big picture" as people with no education at all! :(

[shedinator]

This is all assuming that the purpose of education is to get a high paying job.

In the old days, when formal college education was invented, to get a doctorate meant that you were well versed in all areas of human knowledge.
A Doctor of philosophy would be expected to understand the physical sciences, art, literature, philosophy, mathematics, maybe even a couple foreign languages.

The point of education is to learn, and be a more well-rounded person.
To understand the world around you on all its many levels.

This is necessary not just to get an interesting job, but to be a responsible citizen (you can't make informed decisions on who or what to vote for if you don't understand the context of the issues being debated), to make smart personal choices in everything to consumer purchases to health care, and even just to know when something someone is telling you or something you read is a load of BS.

Of course its possible to learn everything they teach in school on one's own, but very few have the discipline it would take to get all of the concentrated knowledge on such disparate fields as you need to get an associates degree in liberal arts in just 2 years.

I agree with most of this. I could've stopped with the bachelor's and got one of several jobs that paid well. I could've taken advantage of the free trade school offered to high school students in my county, or stayed close to home and attended one of several community colleges for free. A classmate of mine graduated and went straight to work as a welder apprentice earning $30/hour, with the promise of $60/hour within 4 years. If your goal is to just get done with education and earn as much money as you can as quickly as you can, college (at least the 4-year liberal arts variety) is probably not for you. It's unfortunate that the liberal arts education has been advertised as a way to increase salary, because realistically that's not really what it is. It's a way to become a more well-rounded, better educated individual, and then maybe if you picked the right major and did the right things in college, come out with a job that pays well. But again, if your focus is the salary increase that comes from learning a useful skill, then you will take a different approach than if your focus is simply becoming educated.

Unfortunately, the higher you go, instead of learning more about the world at large and getting more well rounded knowledge and understanding, the modern world makes education more and more specialized, so that in the end many of the most educated people seem to have as much trouble seeing the "big picture" as people with no education at all! :(

This is my main disagreement. I don't think specialization is unfortunate. Actually, if you compare the knowledge required for a 4 year degree today, its sum total is greater than that of what someone working toward a doctorate would've had to know "in the old days." Our knowledge is growing exponentially, and as it grows, we have found that becoming a true polymath is increasingly more difficult. The best that many of the most intelligent people can hope for is mastery of a single discipline, and perhaps the ability to be conversational in a few others. I'd rather see people learning one subject really well, and continuing to advance that field, than see everyone scrambling to achieve the "rennaissance man" ideal, and be so busy grasping the entirety of the big picture that they don't end up contributing anything further to the collective of human knowledge.

[Grigory]

Alex Kiselev: Looking at how my parents went through debt, it's really debilitating for the first five to 10, even maybe 15, 20 years of your life. Especially if you don't find a very high-paying job, as is always promised.

I couldn't agree more... High school students are always promised they'd get a high-paying job right after college. No if's or but's - you'll get an amazing job, and that's it. I was young and stupid (aren't most 18-year-olds, though?) and got my college degree. In Liberal Arts. In 2008. Mere months before the onset of the Second Depression, when even young graduates with "real" degrees (e.g., engineering as opposed to political science) had to compete with Gen-X'ers and Baby Boomers for the few jobs that were left...

I ended up getting jobs that used my language skills (I've always been multilingual) and, later on, plain old physical labor. Had to work hard to get those jobs, too... Thus far, my college degree hasn't landed me a high-paying job - or any job, for that matter. If I could do it all over again, I probably would have skipped it altogether and spent those four years of my life doing something more productive. :(

[menorman]

Alex Kiselev: Looking at how my parents went through debt, it's really debilitating for the first five to 10, even maybe 15, 20 years of your life. Especially if you don't find a very high-paying job, as is always promised.

I couldn't agree more... High school students are always promised they'd get a high-paying job right after college. No if's or but's - you'll get an amazing job, and that's it. I was young and stupid (aren't most 18-year-olds, though?) and got my college degree. In Liberal Arts. In 2008. Mere months before the onset of the Second Depression, when even young graduates with "real" degrees (e.g., engineering as opposed to political science) had to compete with Gen-X'ers and Baby Boomers for the few jobs that were left...

I ended up getting jobs that used my language skills (I've always been multilingual) and, later on, plain old physical labor. Had to work hard to get those jobs, too... Thus far, my college degree hasn't landed me a high-paying job - or any job, for that matter. If I could do it all over again, I probably would have skipped it altogether and spent those four years of my life doing something more productive. :(

Yea, the narrative in the present time really needs to change. (But it won't, because those gullible kids will continue to take out loans for the ever-rising tuition since they want to "move up" in society and society continues to tell them the degree is the only way.) While going to college is great and an honorable goal, thought needs to be put into it. Just because Latin American Women of the Mid-17th Century have always been a passion of yours DOESN'T MEAN SOCIETY WILL GUARANTEE YOU A HIGH-PAYING JOB (or even a job at all) FOR STUDYING THAT FOR FOUR OR MORE YEARS. However, society will handsomely reward your friend who studied Accounting and MINORED in the aforementioned subject with a job at a company looking to reach out to Hispanics or maybe even with an appointment somewhere in Latin America. Moral of the story: make yourself marketable from the very beginning. No one will stop you from learning and libraries have hundreds of books that one could read on the subject after reaching FIRE. But it will be much easier to reach FIRE with a decent job first THEN go back to study what is truly interesting than it is to try to study the interests then make a living afterwards.

[grantmeaname]

those gullible kids will continue to take out loans for the ever-rising tuition since they want to "move up" in society and society continues to tell them the degree is the only way

But getting a degree, any degree, can make you more employable. Bachelors holders in the US are paid more and unemployed less than high school graduates. And while tuition and student loans are skyrocketing, the burden on students is still minimal: a third of students fully graduate without loans. Of those who take loans, the average is only $23.3k, and only a quarter borrow more than $28k. Add the IBR and PSLF programs to that, and college really isn't such a bad deal if you don't borrow exorbitant amounts for a degree that won't increase your market value.

[MacGyverIt]

While going to college is great and an honorable goal, thought needs to be put into it. Just because Latin American Women of the Mid-17th Century have always been a passion of yours DOESN'T MEAN SOCIETY WILL GUARANTEE YOU A HIGH-PAYING JOB (or even a job at all) FOR STUDYING THAT FOR FOUR OR MORE YEARS. However, society will handsomely reward your friend who studied Accounting and MINORED in the aforementioned subject with a job at a company looking to reach out to Hispanics or maybe even with an appointment somewhere in Latin America. Moral of the story: make yourself marketable from the very beginning. No one will stop you from learning and libraries have hundreds of books that one could read on the subject after reaching FIRE. But it will be much easier to reach FIRE with a decent job first THEN go back to study what is truly interesting than it is to try to study the interests then make a living afterwards.

So true! I have a 24 year old distant cousin who majored in English and hasn't found work since graduation (granted, not a good time to graduate). So her idea to solve this? Go back to school and get a Masters degree. She's an unemployed adult living with her mother and her parents are paying all her bills - to include her student loans - and going back to school makes sense to her. Her brother on the other hand is still in school, working towards and Engineering degree. Who's gonna get a job first?

I absolutely understand the desire to spend four to six years immersed in subjects for which one is passionate but the employments odds are in favor of some degrees more than others. It's an investment so do the research on what makes the most sense/likely renders employment to ensure you get your return.