Author Topic: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia  (Read 4331 times)

Mariposa

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2023, 10:42:23 AM »
If your HA1c is 4.7, you do not have pre-diabetes. There are many reasons for a fasting blood sugar of 105; you could have had an extra surge of cortisol that morning, from being stressed. If you've never seen a blood sugar >200, there's no need for CGM. HA1c would have been the next logical test for your doc. If he puts it under the ICD code for elevated glucose, insurance will cover it.

Competent primary care in the community, I hear, can be hard to find.

Is it really $1000 for you to see a primary care doc and get labs done? I think I pay around $25 for some lab co-pays. I'm also in the US.

Yes. It was just under $1,000 for the doctor visit plus bloodwork out of pocket.

I thought it should have been covered under preventative care, but the insurance paid nothing since I did not hit my deductible. So I'm not sure why insurance did not pay - it was my only time seeing the doctor that whole year.

Difference insurances are VERY different.

The fasting blood sugar is CONSISTENTLY 105 both at the lab and self testing at home.

If it was just a fluke I would not be bothered at all.

ETA: I do realize this means I could just ALWAYS have cortisol spikes...

People have hormonal differences; maybe you tend to have elevated cortisol that time of the day, or when you're hungry, so your fasting blood glucose is higher than the average. I wouldn't worry about it with a HA1c of 4.7 AND if your blood glucose has never been >200. You are not pre-diabetic.

Insurances are very different, but after the ACA, preventative care should be covered, regardless of your deductible. Maybe you should look into how things were billed and processed.

At this point, because of my family's particular needs, I've spent many, many hours studying our insurance coverage and talking to them on the phone. I got a letter of denial for my Vitamin D 25OH recently, for example, and it was because my doctor coded it under health screening. I wrote a brief appeal saying it should have been coded under vitamin D deficiency and sent them my prior lab work to prove it. The lab billed insurance about $600 for the test, but I know they would have eventually sent me a bill for around $35 if insurance didn't cover anything. I appealed just because I kind of understand the system, and I could.

This is good to know - thank you!

In retrospect I bet it was not billed correctly.

This makes me feel more comfortable about going back to see a different doctor.

I mean - I think the doctor WAS correct in his assessment to not be worried, but he did NOT have an a1c score at the time, so I feel like with consistent readings of 105 fasting over the years he should have at least addressed and explained my concerns better.

I will find a new doctor.

Thanks!

ETA: I mean - you just explained things better than my doctor did in a finance forum.

For most people, fasting glucose is the lowest it gets, so a high number can indicate diabetes / prediabetes. Clearly, that's not what's going on with you. An A1c of 4.7 translates to an estimated average glucose of 88:
https://professional.diabetes.org/diapro/glucose_calc


TreeLeaf

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2023, 10:47:20 AM »
@Metalcat reading through most of your responses here, it seems like you're ranting about a completely different thing than Peter Attia. You even acknowledge from someone else's post that he ranks pharmacology very low in importance, then continue to rail against him for being a "darling of the tech-bro-medicine world." At least his book wasn't filled with personal attacks, which can't be said about your posts in this thread.

And who cares if men, for whatever reason, want longevity more than women? Why is that some soapbox to get on? Personally, I don't care about living a long time, but I do care about living well in my later years, which was a very big part of his book. Maybe it's because I'm a man with some need for independence. Oh well.

That wasn't a soap box or a criticism, it was an observation that I thought was interesting.

Also, I've said multiple times that a lot of what he says is good. I've made more general comments about health influencer doctors in general because this is an ongoing discussion between myself and OP over multiple threads and PMs

Note that I also specifically requested @Metalcat  to continue providing feedback, as I think their general thoughts here are more technically accurate, even if they provide less confidence and actionable items than an influencer does.

I have no idea who this person is in real life but it's very obvious this person is well educated, intelligent. and has some sort of professional medical background and has good reasons for these sorts of observations - which I highly value.

DK

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2023, 05:59:15 PM »
So...anyone else read this book?

Thoughts? Opinions?

I'm not looking for any specific sort of feedback this time. Just your general thoughts if you are familiar with this book or this author.

Thanks!
Bought it but haven't read it yet. Heard some interviews on it so have part of the gist...am a subscriber to his podcast and have followed him a few years so probably have an idea of what will be in it. Heard it's a bit more high level than his in depth podcasts but it allows for a wider audience to get a grasp of the concepts. As far as himself, i'm a fan. Better than a lot of the more salesy podcast/influencers and like his engineer/math/doctor brain he uses. Check out his podcast or other writing if you enjoy his book.

Oh - I did not even realize he had a podcast and followers. This helps to put Metalcats posts into perspective better.

I just bought the book because he is a Medical Doctor and Huberman and a guy I work with endorsed the book. I buy books all the time without thinking much about it, lol.

With that said - I found the book to be pretty excellent in general. Especially the high level advice.

I'm a little perplexed by his protein recommendation of 1 gram /lb of body weight or something iirc. That seems absurdly high to me and different from what other longevity influencers recommend. That was the only part where I was sort of questioning his advice.

There seems to be some dispute among the different longevity influencers if it is better to aim for high protein (150 grams /lb of body weight) to ensure higher lean muscle mass, because various physical abilities, Vo2 max, grip strength, are correlated so tightly with longevity.

Some other influencers argue it is better to keep protein around 50 grams per pound of body weight per day, because blue zones diets + protein causes insulin release, which encourages cell growth and division.

I'm too ignorant about the science here to figure out who is correct, lol.

I'm not sure if you mean total grams of protein, not per lb of bodyweight there...? Haven't read the book so not sure what he says in there, but he's talked about it and interviewed people on it. If you want more nuance on that you can read/listen to some things by stu philips, don layman, layne norton, gabrielle lyon, rhonda patrick....the first couple there actually well published protein researchers.

Protein wise the 90% rule is you're probably better around 1.2g/kg of BW. Which BW can be tricky if you're overweight, so lean bodyweight, or fit bodyweight would be what to use there....RDA is .8/kg with recs for athletes higher than that at 1.6/kg, those researchers found 1.2/kg is a bit better than the minimum to avoid deficiencies and malnutrition.....easier rough idea using lbs, is .75g/lb to aim for.

sounds like you've heard things about the mtor/igf-1/insulin things....for context, carbs typically raise insulin/mtor more than protein. and fat less than both of those. the nuance on some of that too is some healthy user bias, and comparing what with what.....the protein 'issues' typically fall away when matched for fruit/veggie intake, as well as exercise. and what valter longo and david sinclair usually reference falls apart where more protein after age 65 is better than low protein which makes you wonder whats going on there...(although i like them both, and have both their books). you also want to be able to have muscle/strength as you age to get off the couch, catch yourself if you fall, and have 'healthspan' and not just 'lifespan'.

i'm probably forgetting a few things, but hopefully that gives a better thought process on it....we are very complex systems and research is not as exact as people usually take it to be.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2023, 07:25:52 PM »
So...anyone else read this book?

Thoughts? Opinions?

I'm not looking for any specific sort of feedback this time. Just your general thoughts if you are familiar with this book or this author.

Thanks!
Bought it but haven't read it yet. Heard some interviews on it so have part of the gist...am a subscriber to his podcast and have followed him a few years so probably have an idea of what will be in it. Heard it's a bit more high level than his in depth podcasts but it allows for a wider audience to get a grasp of the concepts. As far as himself, i'm a fan. Better than a lot of the more salesy podcast/influencers and like his engineer/math/doctor brain he uses. Check out his podcast or other writing if you enjoy his book.

Oh - I did not even realize he had a podcast and followers. This helps to put Metalcats posts into perspective better.

I just bought the book because he is a Medical Doctor and Huberman and a guy I work with endorsed the book. I buy books all the time without thinking much about it, lol.

With that said - I found the book to be pretty excellent in general. Especially the high level advice.

I'm a little perplexed by his protein recommendation of 1 gram /lb of body weight or something iirc. That seems absurdly high to me and different from what other longevity influencers recommend. That was the only part where I was sort of questioning his advice.

There seems to be some dispute among the different longevity influencers if it is better to aim for high protein (150 grams /lb of body weight) to ensure higher lean muscle mass, because various physical abilities, Vo2 max, grip strength, are correlated so tightly with longevity.

Some other influencers argue it is better to keep protein around 50 grams per pound of body weight per day, because blue zones diets + protein causes insulin release, which encourages cell growth and division.

I'm too ignorant about the science here to figure out who is correct, lol.

I'm not sure if you mean total grams of protein, not per lb of bodyweight there...? Haven't read the book so not sure what he says in there, but he's talked about it and interviewed people on it. If you want more nuance on that you can read/listen to some things by stu philips, don layman, layne norton, gabrielle lyon, rhonda patrick....the first couple there actually well published protein researchers.

Protein wise the 90% rule is you're probably better around 1.2g/kg of BW. Which BW can be tricky if you're overweight, so lean bodyweight, or fit bodyweight would be what to use there....RDA is .8/kg with recs for athletes higher than that at 1.6/kg, those researchers found 1.2/kg is a bit better than the minimum to avoid deficiencies and malnutrition.....easier rough idea using lbs, is .75g/lb to aim for.

sounds like you've heard things about the mtor/igf-1/insulin things....for context, carbs typically raise insulin/mtor more than protein. and fat less than both of those. the nuance on some of that too is some healthy user bias, and comparing what with what.....the protein 'issues' typically fall away when matched for fruit/veggie intake, as well as exercise. and what valter longo and david sinclair usually reference falls apart where more protein after age 65 is better than low protein which makes you wonder whats going on there...(although i like them both, and have both their books). you also want to be able to have muscle/strength as you age to get off the couch, catch yourself if you fall, and have 'healthspan' and not just 'lifespan'.

i'm probably forgetting a few things, but hopefully that gives a better thought process on it....we are very complex systems and research is not as exact as people usually take it to be.

Sorry - yeah I totally mistyped that. I was thinking about total for my body weight (150 lbs).

In the book he is recommending people consume "1 gram per pound of body weight per day (or 2.2 g / kg / day) is a good place to start." - page 331 for anyone following along.

This is higher than any recommendation I have ever heard, apart from body builders (who interestingly do not live a long time despite all that lean muscle mass...)

Interestingly this is ALSO higher than the numbers you list, which are the standard recommendations I have read in several places now...

This seems high to me if the goal is longevity, compared to what David Sinclair recommends, and compared to how much protein is in the typical blue zones diets. Simply emulating populations where we already KNOW that a high percentage of the population lives a long time seems like a better strategy here, imo, simply because these are the best real life studies we have.

This piece of advice doesn't seem ideal to me...if lifespan is the goal. Maybe if being a body builder is the goal sure, but imo not for living a long time.

Just my .02 cents.

DK

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2023, 08:18:47 PM »
i'd say you'd be much better off aiming for 150 than 50....but i'm guessing he did that as an easy catch-all to not get into all the nuance and calculations. so if you're trying to be more nuanced, run the 1.2/kg and do that. just in my comment i brought up multiple calculations, and that left out anything to do with sources of protein and specific amino acids, so likely in book didn't want to get too in depth on certain things.

bringing up bodybuilders and blue zones, lots of confounders there. your lifestyle and actions are likely no where close to theirs. still good as a data source though and think there is helpful info to impute there. do what you feel is best for you, but please make sure you are making those decisions on a good foundation of knowledge. probably veering away from your o.g. question, so i'd rec again if looking for a more nuanced protein discussion from attia listen to some of his podcasts focused on that, vs whats likely a chapter or few pages in book.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2023, 05:43:41 AM »
i'd say you'd be much better off aiming for 150 than 50....but i'm guessing he did that as an easy catch-all to not get into all the nuance and calculations. so if you're trying to be more nuanced, run the 1.2/kg and do that. just in my comment i brought up multiple calculations, and that left out anything to do with sources of protein and specific amino acids, so likely in book didn't want to get too in depth on certain things.

bringing up bodybuilders and blue zones, lots of confounders there. your lifestyle and actions are likely no where close to theirs. still good as a data source though and think there is helpful info to impute there. do what you feel is best for you, but please make sure you are making those decisions on a good foundation of knowledge. probably veering away from your o.g. question, so i'd rec again if looking for a more nuanced protein discussion from attia listen to some of his podcasts focused on that, vs whats likely a chapter or few pages in book.

Yeah...no.

This is poor and dangerous advice. I don't often argue with people but it's important to understand why I'm against this advice.

The answer to one doctor saying something that is very different from every other doctor recommendation, nutritional study, government guidelines, and what is different from every known group of people on the planet who actually do live a long time, spread across the entire globe, is not to go and learn more about what that doctor is saying to try and understand his explanation of why he knows more than everyone else.

The answer is to question what that doctor is telling you and their reasoning behind what they're saying, because it could be incorrect.

His reasoning behind this is that protein is needed to maintain and preserve lean muscle mass (which is true), and that lean muscle mass and various strength studies and VO2 studies strongly correlate with longevity and lower all cause mortality rates (which is also true).

This does not imply that eating more protein will lead to lower mortality rates. In fact - there are  several nutritional studies showing the exact opposite of this conclusion, that eating this amount of protein is going to lead to an early grave for most people. Not only this, but they show a dose dependent relationship which implies a causality. These studies are conveniently left out of the book.

However - there are (a few) other nutritional studies showing the opposite of this conclusion. That more protein is correlated with better health outcomes across the board.

This doesn't mean nutrition science is all nonsense or incorrect. It just means it's complicated and subject to misinterpretation.

There is a fundamental difference between these studies - which is what else you're eating with the protein. Either you're eating a lot of saturated fat and carcinogens, or you're eating a bunch of vitamins, minerals,  polyphenols, and fiber. In other words, either you are eating protein from grain fed animals, or you are eating protein from plants.

Those studies he references citing fitness and mortality rates do not take nutrition into account at all. We have no idea how much protein those people were eating. All we know for sure is that they were very physically fit and active, which is strongly associated with all sorts of positive health outcomes, not just longevity.

His interpretation of the science is limited when it comes to nutrition.

He completely hand waves the entire field of nutritional science because he has various issues with all of the studies. Which is nonsense. Yes - there are a lot of problems with nutritional science, but most of those problems are related to how we are interpreting what the studies say, not a problem with the studies themselves.

An average Joe who reads this book and blindly follows this specific piece of advice will start eating down steak, chicken, and whey protein shakes and wind up dying an early death because they don't question things, because that's what your typical American thinks protein is.

Yes - eating protein is very beneficial. You should strive to eat a lot of protein. But it should come from a variety of plants, which have a lot of other useful compounds as well, or occasionally from low mercury content fish, which also have a lot of other useful nutrients (omega 3s, etc). If you want to eat more meat, it should be free range chicken, followed by the leanest cuts of grass fed beef. In general though - eat plants.

There is no direct scientific evidence that eating 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight will lead to a longer lifespan. None at all. No long term studies have been done to prove this theory in human beings.

Most studies on protein I have read don't even go that high, and it would be even more dangerous for a 200 pound man to follow the advice here, as they would be consuming 200 grams, or 800 calories of protein, per day. If this is coming from animal products it is coming with a lot of other things that are not strictly positive for your health. Especially if they are the modern day, grain fed animals with incredibly high omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acid profiles, which are associated with inflammation.

Different people do respond differently to different diets though, so the important thing is to try a diet and have your bloodwork done regularly, note how it makes you feel every day, and choose a diet that makes you feel great and has optimal bloodwork results for you.

There are a lot of other excellent parts of the book but this part about protein intake I don't think is sound advice, especially if someone views it out of context or assumes it applies to everyone.

Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32076944/
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 09:51:41 AM by TreeLeaf »

Metalcat

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2023, 05:33:38 AM »
I found this link for you, it doesn't review this book unfortunately, but it covers what I've been talking about in terms of how science is represented, and it has a book on longevity and eating that they review well, although I haven't read it.

I REALLY love how they differentiate between the advice being healthy vs the scientific claims being valid. Like with Fung, they say the advice is likely to result in improved health, but his "scientific" justifications are basically exaggerated nonsense. He knows what he knows because of clinical experience, but he exaggerates what science says, essentially as fabricated backup.

https://www.redpenreviews.org/our-process/

« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 05:39:12 AM by Metalcat »

TreeLeaf

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2023, 05:50:27 AM »
I found this link for you, it doesn't review this book unfortunately, but it covers what I've been talking about in terms of how science is represented, and it has a book on longevity and eating that they review well, although I haven't read it.

I REALLY love how they differentiate between the advice being healthy vs the scientific claims being valid. Like with Fung, they say the advice is likely to result in improved health, but his "scientific" justifications are basically exaggerated nonsense. He knows what he knows because of clinical experience, but he exaggerates what science says, essentially as fabricated backup.

https://www.redpenreviews.org/our-process/

Thank You!

And I want thank you for your feedback in this thread.

Your wise words and cautions about health influencers are very appropriate, I think.

Metalcat

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2023, 06:10:45 AM »
I found this link for you, it doesn't review this book unfortunately, but it covers what I've been talking about in terms of how science is represented, and it has a book on longevity and eating that they review well, although I haven't read it.

I REALLY love how they differentiate between the advice being healthy vs the scientific claims being valid. Like with Fung, they say the advice is likely to result in improved health, but his "scientific" justifications are basically exaggerated nonsense. He knows what he knows because of clinical experience, but he exaggerates what science says, essentially as fabricated backup.

https://www.redpenreviews.org/our-process/

Thank You!

And I want thank you for your feedback in this thread.

Your wise words and cautions about health influencers are very appropriate, I think.

You explained your reaction well in my journal. I get it.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2023, 06:28:54 AM »
I found this link for you, it doesn't review this book unfortunately, but it covers what I've been talking about in terms of how science is represented, and it has a book on longevity and eating that they review well, although I haven't read it.

I REALLY love how they differentiate between the advice being healthy vs the scientific claims being valid. Like with Fung, they say the advice is likely to result in improved health, but his "scientific" justifications are basically exaggerated nonsense. He knows what he knows because of clinical experience, but he exaggerates what science says, essentially as fabricated backup.

https://www.redpenreviews.org/our-process/

Thank You!

And I want thank you for your feedback in this thread.

Your wise words and cautions about health influencers are very appropriate, I think.

You explained your reaction well in my journal. I get it.

I know you understand.

I'm posting this here to make sure everyone else reads your posts also, and approaches health influencers with an appropriate level of caution.

My fear is other people will similarly misinterpret what you are trying to say, and think you are attacking medical doctors. When I think your real intent is to protect people from incorrect or invalid health advice.

DK

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2023, 04:23:20 PM »
i'd say you'd be much better off aiming for 150 than 50....but i'm guessing he did that as an easy catch-all to not get into all the nuance and calculations. so if you're trying to be more nuanced, run the 1.2/kg and do that. just in my comment i brought up multiple calculations, and that left out anything to do with sources of protein and specific amino acids, so likely in book didn't want to get too in depth on certain things.

bringing up bodybuilders and blue zones, lots of confounders there. your lifestyle and actions are likely no where close to theirs. still good as a data source though and think there is helpful info to impute there. do what you feel is best for you, but please make sure you are making those decisions on a good foundation of knowledge. probably veering away from your o.g. question, so i'd rec again if looking for a more nuanced protein discussion from attia listen to some of his podcasts focused on that, vs whats likely a chapter or few pages in book.

Yeah...no.

This is poor and dangerous advice. I don't often argue with people but it's important to understand why I'm against this advice.

The answer to one doctor saying something that is very different from every other doctor recommendation, nutritional study, government guidelines, and what is different from every known group of people on the planet who actually do live a long time, spread across the entire globe, is not to go and learn more about what that doctor is saying to try and understand his explanation of why he knows more than everyone else.

The answer is to question what that doctor is telling you and their reasoning behind what they're saying, because it could be incorrect.

His reasoning behind this is that protein is needed to maintain and preserve lean muscle mass (which is true), and that lean muscle mass and various strength studies and VO2 studies strongly correlate with longevity and lower all cause mortality rates (which is also true).

This does not imply that eating more protein will lead to lower mortality rates. In fact - there are  several nutritional studies showing the exact opposite of this conclusion, that eating this amount of protein is going to lead to an early grave for most people. Not only this, but they show a dose dependent relationship which implies a causality. These studies are conveniently left out of the book.

However - there are (a few) other nutritional studies showing the opposite of this conclusion. That more protein is correlated with better health outcomes across the board.

This doesn't mean nutrition science is all nonsense or incorrect. It just means it's complicated and subject to misinterpretation.

There is a fundamental difference between these studies - which is what else you're eating with the protein. Either you're eating a lot of saturated fat and carcinogens, or you're eating a bunch of vitamins, minerals,  polyphenols, and fiber. In other words, either you are eating protein from grain fed animals, or you are eating protein from plants.

Those studies he references citing fitness and mortality rates do not take nutrition into account at all. We have no idea how much protein those people were eating. All we know for sure is that they were very physically fit and active, which is strongly associated with all sorts of positive health outcomes, not just longevity.

His interpretation of the science is limited when it comes to nutrition.

He completely hand waves the entire field of nutritional science because he has various issues with all of the studies. Which is nonsense. Yes - there are a lot of problems with nutritional science, but most of those problems are related to how we are interpreting what the studies say, not a problem with the studies themselves.

An average Joe who reads this book and blindly follows this specific piece of advice will start eating down steak, chicken, and whey protein shakes and wind up dying an early death because they don't question things, because that's what your typical American thinks protein is.

Yes - eating protein is very beneficial. You should strive to eat a lot of protein. But it should come from a variety of plants, which have a lot of other useful compounds as well, or occasionally from low mercury content fish, which also have a lot of other useful nutrients (omega 3s, etc). If you want to eat more meat, it should be free range chicken, followed by the leanest cuts of grass fed beef. In general though - eat plants.

There is no direct scientific evidence that eating 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight will lead to a longer lifespan. None at all. No long term studies have been done to prove this theory in human beings.

Most studies on protein I have read don't even go that high, and it would be even more dangerous for a 200 pound man to follow the advice here, as they would be consuming 200 grams, or 800 calories of protein, per day. If this is coming from animal products it is coming with a lot of other things that are not strictly positive for your health. Especially if they are the modern day, grain fed animals with incredibly high omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acid profiles, which are associated with inflammation.

Different people do respond differently to different diets though, so the important thing is to try a diet and have your bloodwork done regularly, note how it makes you feel every day, and choose a diet that makes you feel great and has optimal bloodwork results for you.

There are a lot of other excellent parts of the book but this part about protein intake I don't think is sound advice, especially if someone views it out of context or assumes it applies to everyone.

Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32076944/

Oof. Okay. I mean, I think you make valid points and I agree with a lot of it....nutrition studies are hard to do....there's nuance to eating and want to eat the best quality food you can....track valid metrics and be objective as well as subjective with how you feel on diet/exercise routines....etc. I'll throw a few things out here  though.

per attia, you're kinda saying he can't interpret research and waves off studies that he doesn't like, etc. from what i recall on his bio, he double majored in engineering and math, got his MD from stanford, and was at NIH for surgery or research, also worked at mckensey (?) awhile in some financial analysis capacity. he has a team of analysts, interviews researchers and clinicians, and wrote a article series called 'studying studies' or something to that affect (i actually think you'd like that series if you want to google for it). I'm pretty sure he has some semblance of what he's talking about, and per this item, didn't just wake up one morning with a random vision that everyone needs 1g/lb protein. That's why I rec'd listening to things where he talked about that information from literal protein researchers that he's interviewed that have been in the field doing studies for decades. Especially if you think he is the only person to ever think or recommend that....if you've never heard that before, it would be good to get out of the potential echo chamber you're in on something you think is leading people to an early grave and poor and dangerous advice.....honestly thats a bit concerning to me if you've never came across that, and this book is 1 person vs the world.... and can see why responding as such. I'm getting the vibe from your response you might be vegetarian (which is fine), so if so (forgive me if i'm wrong) but i can see where the meat is bad, fat is bad, eat plants, is coming from in that case. although appreciate you bring up grass fed over grain, omega 3's over too many 6's. but meat isn't intrinsically bad (lots of bioavailable nutrients and protein), nor fat.....if talking about a fast food double burger with fries and pop, i think most would agree yeah not ideal.

per studies, yeah there is not a long term RCT on 1g/lb protein. or any diet vs diet. long term retro's, or short term prospectives is the usual. You brought up the nuance of interpreting results which is definitely the tricky part. things get reductive into 'meat eater' vs 'plant eater' or low vs high without always delving into details. looks like you do some in depth looking of that which is good. but meat vs plant isn't the only variable, things come along for the ride since not an RCT.....since meat is easier to get/eat and kinda a default, things like ppl not exercising, or drinking/smoking comes along. which if a person is eating veggie based they are likely not doing that. kinda like bringing up the blue zones, i know one spot is comprised of 7th day adventists who in addition to being plant based are no where near the normal person for other activities and actions which play a role in health. Also most studies are memory based food recalls that try to tease out correlations. I'm actually part of a long term study and thats what it is, every 5 yrs, getting to answer a bunch of questions on things like that......i think most people do not realize how 'fuzzy' a lot of the 'science' actually is.

i believe the protein restriction kinda popped off of the caloric restriction.....and i know they found the protein restriction ended up coming down to methionine restriction....but also if sufficient glycine was in diet that went away. so if we want to delve down into the specific amino acids and longevity, it might come down to most people are just glycine deficient. which i'm sure its way too reductionist, but some research is there.

but anyways, glad you're reading and researching. i know i wouldn't have let one book change my mind either, but i would hope you do keep an open mind and seek conflicting information to better sharped the blade of your mind. I know I've consumed so much info over the past decades it can definitely get frustrating to tease apart what is what. appreciate the responses talking through your thought processes.  best of luck on your health and fitness journey!

TreeLeaf

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Re: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Doctor Peter Attia
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2023, 07:44:41 PM »
@DK - thanks for the feedback.

Yes - I have a vegetarian background, thus my rant on animal protein. The vegans brainwashed me a long time ago, lol. I never went full vegan though - I was never convinced that this was optimal for human health, even with how hard some vegans pushed this. Instead I greatly reduced my animal meat intake and eliminated dairy. I lost lean muscle mass in the process, like a lot of vegans, so it's hard to say if this decision was optimal for my health.

I don't know anything else about Attia besides this book - thanks for pointing out his background and team of researchers. It's good to know the book is well researched. The chapters on nutrition do seem extremely limited. Maybe he did this on purpose to keep the book from getting too large.

I know someone in real life, who has a family history of heart disease, who recommended this book to me. After reading the book he started eating steak for breakfast, chicken for lunch, chicken for dinner, and a whey protein shake between lunch and dinner. He doesn't have his bloodwork checked regularly either. It seems dangerous to me, but perhaps I need to read more research in this area.

This is what I mean when I say this individual piece of advice is dangerous when taken out of context for the average person. I'm not saying the advice overall is dangerous. I'm saying someone may see that specific piece of advice, start eating meat for every meal, ignore other warnings in the book, then have their ApoB numbers skyrocket and die from heart disease.

This is the extent of my criticism of the book.

In general I think this is an excellent book that everyone should read, imo.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 04:53:39 AM by TreeLeaf »