Invisible Women by Caroline Criado-Perez

[Sanitary Stache]

I am just trying to get this thread started. I haven't organized any thoughts yet and I am only 50 or so pages in, but I had an initial thought today that I wanted to share on the introductory topic in the book.

The Default Male.

The reading is excellent so far and the explanation of the default male is good.  I could probably read it a few more times and gain new perspective.  One thing that did sink in was that the default male default excludes females.  And today I heard it in the speech of some local political candidates that my friend is running against.

In a political forum but on by the local university, my friend was the only woman on the stage of 6.  When the men spoke, the default male was used. And it sounded exactly as if these men were thinking of men when they spoke and not thinking of women. Why?  Because when they described a business owner it was "his business"  when they described a tax payer it was "his burden". When they described a worker it was "he". 

My friend has well thought out responses and was familiar with the needs of her district in all topics raised, which also stood out, but her use of gender neutral language reinforced the belief that she was there to represent everyone regardless of gender.

[Metalcat]

This is one of the best books I have ever read.

Aside from the main message, it's just such an incredible illustration of how data is collected and analyzed.

This book is in my "mandatory" category when recommending books to people who want to become more knowledgeable about the world around them.

It's very similar in analysis to many of Taleb's books, but utterly dwarfs the entire Incerto in terms of the amount of relevant day to day knowledge that it provides.

This book will single handedly make you a wiser, more insightful, more informed, more analytical person who is able to see the world around them through a lens that almost no one can see.

In short, it's a BIG fucking deal.

[RetiredAt63]

I love this book. 

Instead of having a "great fiction" reading list, I think people should have a great non-fiction reading list.  And this book would be #1.


I would love to have it be required reading for legislators at all levels, and planners at all levels.  Not to mention med school students.  And people doing peer review of literature.  Hmm, basically anyone with any influence in any sphere.

Just one relatively minor example - how many women find seat belts massively uncomfortable?  I do - because they are not designed for me.  I expect to have a broken collar-bone if I am in a bad car accident, to go along with the broken ribs from the air bag.

[Psychstache]

Just finished reading* Part 1 of this book. I add thoughts as I go, but wanted to keep track of this thread. So far, the book has been amazing. I think I intuitively understood a lot of the underlying ideas, but the depth and detail that is covered is awesome. If nothing else, the book should serve as a great reference for a variety of useful statistics on the gender data gap.

*audiobook for now, but I have a physical copy on the way as well.

[Sanitary Stache]

I am three chapters in now I think. I'll have to take a look.  My reading is sporadic.

But I continue to think about the Default Male.  I brought it up at a bonfire recently and the response was that it is a situation that applies to minorities.  I tried to convey that, though true, there were farther ranging implications when half or more of the entire population was excluded from design considerations.

But the concept applies to minorities.  The Default ____.  One genre of oppression we are experiencing is the Default Christian.  December is the "Holiday Season" because of Christmas.  The default thinking is that Christmas is Universal.  Similarly, male is Universal.  Anything different, anything not male, or in this case, not Christian, is "abnormal" or "confounding" "atypical". Other.

The book calls out how men are attacked as soon as the status que is questioned.  Chirstians are the same as soon as Christmas's universality is questioned.  My mother was surprised to learn that my wife didn't celebrate Christmas in her Jewish upbringing.  Dear Mother can't approach the topic from any other perspective than that Christmas is universal. 

The public school is putting on "A Christmas Story".  DM tries to argue it is a secular story.  And perhaps that is the point of the story - the paint Christmas as American and not Christian.  To be American one must celebrate Christmas.  It isn't religious, it is Universal.  I haven't gone in for an analysis of A Christmas Story.  I like the movie, we watched it on the TV when the channels had movie marathons at Christmas.  It is part of what I believe America is, the pop culture myth implanted into my psyche by the power of repetition.

There is a strong resistance to accepting the truth of the Default Male.  I'd like to read more about how shedding this myth helps us create a better society.

The Myth of Meritocracy.  I think that is the chapter I am reading now.

[Psychstache]

I am three chapters in now I think. I'll have to take a look.  My reading is sporadic.

But I continue to think about the Default Male.  I brought it up at a bonfire recently and the response was that it is a situation that applies to minorities.  I tried to convey that, though true, there were farther ranging implications when half or more of the entire population was excluded from design considerations.

But the concept applies to minorities.  The Default ____.  One genre of oppression we are experiencing is the Default Christian.  December is the "Holiday Season" because of Christmas.  The default thinking is that Christmas is Universal.  Similarly, male is Universal.  Anything different, anything not male, or in this case, not Christian, is "abnormal" or "confounding" "atypical". Other.

The book calls out how men are attacked as soon as the status que is questioned.  Chirstians are the same as soon as Christmas's universality is questioned.  My mother was surprised to learn that my wife didn't celebrate Christmas in her Jewish upbringing.  Dear Mother can't approach the topic from any other perspective than that Christmas is universal. 

The public school is putting on "A Christmas Story".  DM tries to argue it is a secular story.  And perhaps that is the point of the story - the paint Christmas as American and not Christian.  To be American one must celebrate Christmas.  It isn't religious, it is Universal.  I haven't gone in for an analysis of A Christmas Story.  I like the movie, we watched it on the TV when the channels had movie marathons at Christmas.  It is part of what I believe America is, the pop culture myth implanted into my psyche by the power of repetition.

There is a strong resistance to accepting the truth of the Default Male.  I'd like to read more about how shedding this myth helps us create a better society.

The Myth of Meritocracy.  I think that is the chapter I am reading now.

Yes. It goes beyond the scope of the book, but in the US (and likely other places) the default is not simply male, but White Heterosexual Christian Able Bodied Male. If you fit fully within this universal construction of identity, it is going to be immensely hard to recognize this societal phenomenon.

I was listening to an interview with Julia Boorstin about her new book “When Women Lead: What They Achieve, Why They Succeed, and How We Can Learn from Them" and caught this little moment from the interviewer (who is also a woman) in the leadup to a question for the author:

HOST: Well and I think what is interesting about that example is that women sometimes ask questions that...about things that maybe other people don't..I'm thinking about the healthcare example....

I thought it was a fun (read:annoying) little example of male is universal, female is niche.

[Hula Hoop]

I'm going to look for this book - at the library of course as I'm mustachienne. 

I've always been aware of this growing up female - as I'm sure most women are just due to the society we live in.  I remember as a child and teen in the 70s and 80s there were so few interesting 3-dimensional female characters in books that I could use as role models.  The ones that existed were incredibly precious to me - Pippi Longstocking, Ramona the Brave and, later on, Jane Austen's heroines, Little Women, the Bronte Sisters' characters, Nancy Drew and characters in Nancy Mitford's books.  But I read a lot of books and saw so many movies and shows where the interesting protagonists were all male and the women were there as girlfriends or objects whose job was to be attractive.  There were so few women in Hollywood (still are very few) and so few women's voices allowed to be on screen.

But now as an adult, I'm realising how the default male has directly affected me and also other female members of my family.  I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 50 and a lot of that has to do with the fact that girls/women just didn't have ADHD when I was younger as all scientific studies were done on the default male and so the 'model' was default male.  So even though it was so incredibly obvious what my problem was they (teachers, parents, society, doctors) just didn't see it as I was/am female.  It was a real punch in the gut to learn that girls and women with ADHD (and I'm sure many other things) were completely ignored until so recently.  What a complete waste of so many lives.  And of course, this is just one example among so many others.

[Metalcat]

I'm going to look for this book - at the library of course as I'm mustachienne. 

I've always been aware of this growing up female - as I'm sure most women are just due to the society we live in.  I remember as a child and teen in the 70s and 80s there were so few interesting 3-dimensional female characters in books that I could use as role models.  The ones that existed were incredibly precious to me - Pippi Longstocking, Ramona the Brave and, later on, Jane Austen's heroines, Little Women, the Bronte Sisters' characters, Nancy Drew and characters in Nancy Mitford's books.  But I read a lot of books and saw so many movies and shows where the interesting protagonists were all male and the women were there as girlfriends or objects whose job was to be attractive.  There were so few women in Hollywood (still are very few) and so few women's voices allowed to be on screen.

But now as an adult, I'm realising how the default male has directly affected me and also other female members of my family.  I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 50 and a lot of that has to do with the fact that girls/women just didn't have ADHD when I was younger as all scientific studies were done on the default male and so the 'model' was default male.  So even though it was so incredibly obvious what my problem was they (teachers, parents, society, doctors) just didn't see it as I was/am female.  It was a real punch in the gut to learn that girls and women with ADHD (and I'm sure many other things) were completely ignored until so recently.  What a complete waste of so many lives.  And of course, this is just one example among so many others.

Re: woman in media

Even many of the interesting woman in literature, movies, etc, were still shackled primarily to plots about marriage.

I only ever saw myself in male protagonists. I just grew up believing "I'm not like a woman, I'm like a man" except this is nonsense. There are plenty of assertive, ambitious women out there whose main concern isn't getting married.

[StarBright]

This book is so good!
It lives in my head and I keep trying to get the men in my life to read it!

Glad to see other people have enjoyed it too.

Just finished reading* Part 1 of this book. I add thoughts as I go, but wanted to keep track of this thread. So far, the book has been amazing. I think I intuitively understood a lot of the underlying ideas, but the depth and detail that is covered is awesome. If nothing else, the book should serve as a great reference for a variety of useful statistics on the gender data gap.

*audiobook for now, but I have a physical copy on the way as well.

One of things I really enjoyed about the book was that I knew a good chunk of the anecdotes from reading various pop sociology and 3rd wave feminist and parenting books over the years - but when you put it ALL in one well structured book. Whew! The big picture is hard to forget. 

[StarBright]

I've always been aware of this growing up female - as I'm sure most women are just due to the society we live in.  I remember as a child and teen in the 70s and 80s there were so few interesting 3-dimensional female characters in books that I could use as role models  * . . . . Nancy Mitford's books. 

I think this is a reason that so many women get excited about the Mitfords (history and literary girls, in particular). Some of them may have made absolutely awful choices - but by golly, those women went out and made some choices and took control of their lives and it is pretty thrilling to read as a young girl. Things don't happen to them. They make things happen and are almost never passive, even the "boring" ones.

[Metalcat]

This book is so good!
It lives in my head and I keep trying to get the men in my life to read it!

Glad to see other people have enjoyed it too.

Just finished reading* Part 1 of this book. I add thoughts as I go, but wanted to keep track of this thread. So far, the book has been amazing. I think I intuitively understood a lot of the underlying ideas, but the depth and detail that is covered is awesome. If nothing else, the book should serve as a great reference for a variety of useful statistics on the gender data gap.

*audiobook for now, but I have a physical copy on the way as well.

One of things I really enjoyed about the book was that I knew a good chunk of the anecdotes from reading various pop sociology and 3rd wave feminist and parenting books over the years - but when you put it ALL in one well structured book. Whew! The big picture is hard to forget.

Yeah...it's pretty telling that men just *won't* read this book.

It's just more evidence of what the book is saying.

It's not a book about women, it's a book about how society has poor data on over half the population and how systems that make decisions based on data are totally fucked up for *everyone* as a result.

But nooooo...it's considered a "niche" feminist book for women.

Like, are you fucking kidding me?

It's a book about the data that drives our entire world being fundamentally fucked up. Mathy, data loving men like we have in this forum should be eating this shit up.

[Psychstache]

Yeah...it's pretty telling that men just *won't* read this book.

It's just more evidence of what the book is saying.

It's not a book about women, it's a book about how society has poor data on over half the population and how systems that make decisions based on data are totally fucked up for *everyone* as a result.

But nooooo...it's considered a "niche" feminist book for women.

Like, are you fucking kidding me?

It's a book about the data that drives our entire world being fundamentally fucked up. Mathy, data loving men like we have in this forum should be eating this shit up.

For the record, I am a man reading the book, but your point stands. I am very big on recommending books to friends and colleagues and I think the odds that this book would be read by any of the guys I know is near zero.

[Villanelle]

Yeah...it's pretty telling that men just *won't* read this book.

It's just more evidence of what the book is saying.

It's not a book about women, it's a book about how society has poor data on over half the population and how systems that make decisions based on data are totally fucked up for *everyone* as a result.

But nooooo...it's considered a "niche" feminist book for women.

Like, are you fucking kidding me?

It's a book about the data that drives our entire world being fundamentally fucked up. Mathy, data loving men like we have in this forum should be eating this shit up.

For the record, I am a man reading the book, but your point stands. I am very big on recommending books to friends and colleagues and I think the odds that this book would be read by any of the guys I know is near zero.

I've reserved the book at my library and I'm waiting for the next available e-copy.

Your post made me think that if the title were something like "Data Bias" or "The Data Default", more men might read it.  And that seems like a pretty great analogy for the female experience--if you want your point to be heard and taken seriously, you have to tie yourself in knots to carefully package it.  Even our physical bodies--we have to look "groomed", which generally means make-up, but too much make up is "unprofessional" and "distracting".  We have to carefully account for the packaging (of ourselves, our art, our information, our ideas...) or make a choice not to, in which case we know there's a significant sacrifice to our efficacy.   

[Metalcat]

Yeah...it's pretty telling that men just *won't* read this book.

It's just more evidence of what the book is saying.

It's not a book about women, it's a book about how society has poor data on over half the population and how systems that make decisions based on data are totally fucked up for *everyone* as a result.

But nooooo...it's considered a "niche" feminist book for women.

Like, are you fucking kidding me?

It's a book about the data that drives our entire world being fundamentally fucked up. Mathy, data loving men like we have in this forum should be eating this shit up.

For the record, I am a man reading the book, but your point stands. I am very big on recommending books to friends and colleagues and I think the odds that this book would be read by any of the guys I know is near zero.

Yep. My non fiction recommendations have a pretty devout following. Most men who ask me for books will read whatever I throw at them, no matter how obscure. Yet, whenever I say this book title, I might as well be recommending "How Vajazzle Your Vulva" by Princess Pussy.

[Sanitary Stache]

I am daydreaming that I will send a copy of this book to my two state reps with a note saying that if they want to continue receiving my vote then they need to read the book.

[Hula Hoop]

Yeah...it's pretty telling that men just *won't* read this book.

It's just more evidence of what the book is saying.

It's not a book about women, it's a book about how society has poor data on over half the population and how systems that make decisions based on data are totally fucked up for *everyone* as a result.

But nooooo...it's considered a "niche" feminist book for women.

Like, are you fucking kidding me?

It's a book about the data that drives our entire world being fundamentally fucked up. Mathy, data loving men like we have in this forum should be eating this shit up.

For the record, I am a man reading the book, but your point stands. I am very big on recommending books to friends and colleagues and I think the odds that this book would be read by any of the guys I know is near zero.

Yep. My non fiction recommendations have a pretty devout following. Most men who ask me for books will read whatever I throw at them, no matter how obscure. Yet, whenever I say this book title, I might as well be recommending "How Vajazzle Your Vulva" by Princess Pussy.

This is so sad.  It also reminds me of some parenting groups I'm in where parents of boys say that they won't read books featuring female protagonists to their boys as, I guess, these are "girl" books?  Even classics like Pippi Longstocking.  Whereas girls constantly read books/see movies with male leads and no one bats an eyelid.  Best selling female children's authors like JK Rowling generally feature a male main character probably for this reason. 

[Sanitary Stache]

I finished reading.

The final chapters were the strongest.

 With discussion about the medical industry.  “The drugs don’t work” and women are dying because of man=human for research.

And concise criticism of the political sphere. The data gap extends to the personal experience of decision makers and men don’t have the experience of women on basically all topics - social programs, disaster relief, sexual violence, transportation, the whole economy, etc. etc. driving home the simplicity that, contrary to what Bernie said to minimize HRC, voting for someone just because they are a woman is enough.

I am thinking that I shouldn’t run for elected office. I would rather a woman in office that I don’t agree with than another male perspective even if it is my own. My own perspective won’t make the changes that are needed because I contain the gender data gap in my experiences.

[Metalcat]

I finished reading.

The final chapters were the strongest.

 With discussion about the medical industry.  “The drugs don’t work” and women are dying because of man=human for research.

And concise criticism of the political sphere. The data gap extends to the personal experience of decision makers and men don’t have the experience of women on basically all topics - social programs, disaster relief, sexual violence, transportation, the whole economy, etc. etc. driving home the simplicity that, contrary to what Bernie said to minimize HRC, voting for someone just because they are a woman is enough.

I am thinking that I shouldn’t run for elected office. I would rather a woman in office that I don’t agree with than another male perspective even if it is my own. My own perspective won’t make the changes that are needed because I contain the gender data gap in my experiences.

Well damn...

[Luke Warm]

This book is eye opening.

[Morning Glory]

This book is eye opening.

I know, right?

I think the part about the cars and seat belts was scariest for me, but that might be because I already knew about the medical research so it wasn't a surprise.

[Metalcat]

This book is eye opening.

Lol, yeah, I feel like no matter what I say about this book, I can't prepare people for how much it will impact them to read it.

[PKFFW]

I think the part about the cars and seat belts was scariest for me, but that might be because I already knew about the medical research so it wasn't a surprise.

Ok, I have to ask because I don't think I'll get around to reading the book anytime soon, what's the deal with the seatbelts?

[Morning Glory]

I think the part about the cars and seat belts was scariest for me, but that might be because I already knew about the medical research so it wasn't a surprise.

Ok, I have to ask because I don't think I'll get around to reading the book anytime soon, what's the deal with the seatbelts?

We are a lot more likely to get injured or killed in car crashes than men because the seat belts aren't designed or tested for us

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/crash-test-bias-how-male-focused-testing-puts-female-drivers-at-risk/

[Sandi_k]

I'm going to look for this book - at the library of course as I'm mustachienne. 

I've always been aware of this growing up female - as I'm sure most women are just due to the society we live in.  I remember as a child and teen in the 70s and 80s there were so few interesting 3-dimensional female characters in books that I could use as role models.  The ones that existed were incredibly precious to me - Pippi Longstocking, Ramona the Brave and, later on, Jane Austen's heroines, Little Women, the Bronte Sisters' characters, Nancy Drew and characters in Nancy Mitford's books.  But I read a lot of books and saw so many movies and shows where the interesting protagonists were all male and the women were there as girlfriends or objects whose job was to be attractive.  There were so few women in Hollywood (still are very few) and so few women's voices allowed to be on screen.

But now as an adult, I'm realising how the default male has directly affected me and also other female members of my family.  I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 50 and a lot of that has to do with the fact that girls/women just didn't have ADHD when I was younger as all scientific studies were done on the default male and so the 'model' was default male.  So even though it was so incredibly obvious what my problem was they (teachers, parents, society, doctors) just didn't see it as I was/am female.  It was a real punch in the gut to learn that girls and women with ADHD (and I'm sure many other things) were completely ignored until so recently.  What a complete waste of so many lives.  And of course, this is just one example among so many others.

Re: woman in media

Even many of the interesting woman in literature, movies, etc, were still shackled primarily to plots about marriage.

In film, it's come to be called the Bechdel Test - the percentage of screen time where women have dialog, and where they ARE NOT talking about men.

"The test asks whether a film features at least two women talking to each other about something other than a man. The measure sometimes is enhanced by adding that the two female characters be named in the film."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test

Every over-30 woman I know has a ready-made rant about the medical profession and women's healthcare. It really is enraging.

Thanks for the book rec!

[Luke Warm]

I finished the book over the weekend. I've been recommending it to everyone I know, especially younger women.
I wonder at what point in human history did women get kicked to the curb? Sometime before we started growing crops I guess, the plow being a man's design.

[GuitarStv]

I might as well be recommending "How Vajazzle Your Vulva" by Princess Pussy.

Our library doesn't seem to have a copy of How to Vajazzle your Vulva available, is the author's name spelled right?

[tygertygertyger]

I'm about halfway through the book now. I've been reading parts out loud to my partner.

Because I was prepped about the crash test dummies, I wasn't as shocked... but still pretty surprised at the numbers.

Mainly I keep thinking about good design vs "clearly we need to educate women how to use this" as it wasn't designed with women's input in mind...

[Sanitary Stache]

I feel like that "women need to change their behavior" response is going to be very common to hear now that I know to look out for it.

[RetiredAt63]

I feel like that "women need to change their behavior" response is going to be very common to hear now that I know to look out for it.

They are all named Henry Higgins.   /s

It carries over to other biological research.  The number of scientific papers I have read where the sex of the animals was never determined.  Look dummies, female crustaceans do things differently than male crustaceans!  At least someone figured out why male St. Lawrence belugas die so much younger than male Arctic Ocean belugas and female St. Lawrence River belugas.  And primate behavioural research, omg. 

[getsorted]

I might as well be recommending "How Vajazzle Your Vulva" by Princess Pussy.

I can't believe I missed this amazing line by reading this book six months too late!

I dated a guy who was really into suspense/thrillers, movies that had a highly consistent visual aesthetic (like Wes Anderson), and also loved Bo Burnham. I asked if he had seen "A Promising Young Woman," which is a fucking amazing suspense movie with a consistent visual aesthetic and co-stars Bo Burnham, and he said, "That doesn't sound like a very 'me' movie. Like 'Little Women.'" I guess he just assumed all movies with "woman" in the title would be like "Little Women" and not "for" him. 

[Metalcat]

I might as well be recommending "How Vajazzle Your Vulva" by Princess Pussy.

I can't believe I missed this amazing line by reading this book six months too late!

I dated a guy who was really into suspense/thrillers, movies that had a highly consistent visual aesthetic (like Wes Anderson), and also loved Bo Burnham. I asked if he had seen "A Promising Young Woman," which is a fucking amazing suspense movie with a consistent visual aesthetic and co-stars Bo Burnham, and he said, "That doesn't sound like a very 'me' movie. Like 'Little Women.'" I guess he just assumed all movies with "woman" in the title would be like "Little Women" and not "for" him.

That's like when I recommend the show "Unbelievable," which is IMO the best detective show that has ever existed. But it's about female detectives investigating a serial rapist, and they assume it won't interest them. Meanwhile it's a true story and an *incredible* representation of fucking amazing detective work, and a very savvy criminal.

But no, it's about women and woman stuff, so I can't get men to watch it, even though it's really a show about truly impressive police work.

[GuitarStv]

My son was reading invisible woman for a while (because it was lying around after I took it out of the library).  He made a surprising amount of headway into it but came away very confused.  His exact words were:

"I guess that things are like, unfair for women and stuff?  But they never talked about the invisible woman or how she got her powers!"

The synopsis made my wife and me laugh.

[Fresh Bread]

My son was reading invisible woman for a while (because it was lying around after I took it out of the library).  He made a surprising amount of headway into it but came away very confused.  His exact words were:

"I guess that things are like, unfair for women and stuff?  But they never talked about the invisible woman or how she got her powers!"

The synopsis made my wife and me laugh.

The invisible woman got her power by turning 50 years old, ha ha.

My library hold finally came through so I'm excited to read this.

[Sandi_k]

My son was reading invisible woman for a while (because it was lying around after I took it out of the library).  He made a surprising amount of headway into it but came away very confused.  His exact words were:

"I guess that things are like, unfair for women and stuff?  But they never talked about the invisible woman or how she got her powers!"

The synopsis made my wife and me laugh.

The invisible woman got her power by turning 50 years old, ha ha.

OMG, you are NOT WRONG.

My BIL, who's a bit of a d*ck, was complaining to DH (his brother) about two friends whose marriages had fallen apart.

"I don't know what it is, but once women turn 50, they turn into friggin' psychos, man!"

When DH relayed this conversation bon mot, my instant response was - "No, they're just sick of your sh*t, man!"

Still makes me laugh. Turning 50 really is a feminine super power....

[Morning Glory]

I thought about this just today when I tried to change the string on the weed eater and discovered I can't take the cover off because you have to squeeze two tabs on opposite sides and pull at the same time and my hands are too small. I am an average-sized woman and dont have ridiculously tiny hands or anything.  Before reading this book it would not have occurred to me that the design is the problem.