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Mustachian Community => Mustachian Book Club => Topic started by: MilesTeg on May 21, 2020, 12:49:46 PM

Title: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: MilesTeg on May 21, 2020, 12:49:46 PM
See poll.

;)
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: SunnyDays on May 21, 2020, 08:40:11 PM
Not only have I read the entire original series, but also most of the prequels written by Herbert's son.  They are actually more enjoyable than the originals!  Whoever the publisher is, though, had bad judgment in book sizing - the more recent paperbacks have such a small margin on the spine side that it's impossible to properly open the book.  They're actually narrower than usual.  Those are the ones I haven't read yet.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: AccidentialMustache on May 21, 2020, 11:06:25 PM
You forgot "I read Dune and was advised by friends I trust to stop at the end of the first book."
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: beltim on May 22, 2020, 01:54:40 AM
You forgot "I read Dune and was advised by friends I trust to stop at the end of the first book."

Ha! This is hilarious.  I did not get such a warning, and so I kept reading.  Dune is the only series I know of where each sequel is worse than the one before it.  I don't remember how many I read, but it was too many.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: Cezil on May 22, 2020, 07:22:49 AM
I love Dune!  Every single time I read it, I understand it in new ways and it's amazing to me.  One of my favorite books.  I did read the subsequent books and struggled to complete the final 3.  Years ago, I started reading through the prequels written by his son, but I am too empathetic and I had to stop reading because I was getting so sad.  I like to sit and think about things, and I'd read the books, and sit and think about them, and it would be not great for my mental health.  I'd love to try again someday; have considered it as a goal for the next year since I've got some more time on my hands, and I would probably see things a bit differently.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: GuitarStv on May 22, 2020, 07:36:27 AM
I've read the entire series . . . and have to agree - the first book was far and away the best and they got progressively worse.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: dcheesi on May 22, 2020, 07:46:09 AM
You forgot "I read Dune and was advised by friends I trust to stop at the end of the first book."

Ha! This is hilarious.  I did not get such a warning, and so I kept reading.  Dune is the only series I know of where each sequel is worse than the one before it.  I don't remember how many I read, but it was too many.
This, so much this.

Slight tangent; how do folks feel about the various Dune adaptations? I have a perhaps unique perspective on the Lynch film, as I saw it long before reading the book(s). As a result, I actually like the movie, though I certainly recognize it as a totally separate creature from the books. I do find it interesting that Lynch, Mr. Unconventional, fell into a very conventional trope regarding the Messianic protagonist:
Spoiler: show
ending the film at the triumphant climax. Which is strange, when the whole point of the books seems to be exploring what happens after that, and how it all goes wrong...
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: MilesTeg on May 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
Not only have I read the entire original series, but also most of the prequels written by Herbert's son.  They are actually more enjoyable than the originals!  Whoever the publisher is, though, had bad judgment in book sizing - the more recent paperbacks have such a small margin on the spine side that it's impossible to properly open the book.  They're actually narrower than usual.  Those are the ones I haven't read yet.

There are no other books.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: chaskavitch on May 23, 2020, 12:14:23 PM
I'm really interested to see how the movie turns out.  I...don't love Timothee Chalamet, so I guess we'll see how that turns out, but I'm still hopeful.  Possibly for no good reason, but still hopeful.

Every time I read the series I feel obligated to finish all of them through Chapterhouse, and they definitely are so so so weird.  I still love them.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: GuitarStv on May 23, 2020, 02:01:53 PM
I remember re-reading Dune a few years back and being struck by how much stuff Herbert lifted from Arabic culture.  The weird part was reading something that does that but doesn't make at least tangential terrorist references.  In pop culture these references pretty much seem required these days.  :P
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: SunnyDays on May 23, 2020, 09:09:08 PM
Not only have I read the entire original series, but also most of the prequels written by Herbert's son.  They are actually more enjoyable than the originals!  Whoever the publisher is, though, had bad judgment in book sizing - the more recent paperbacks have such a small margin on the spine side that it's impossible to properly open the book.  They're actually narrower than usual.  Those are the ones I haven't read yet.

There are no other books.

I don’t understand what you mean by this.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: GuitarStv on May 23, 2020, 09:10:00 PM
Not only have I read the entire original series, but also most of the prequels written by Herbert's son.  They are actually more enjoyable than the originals!  Whoever the publisher is, though, had bad judgment in book sizing - the more recent paperbacks have such a small margin on the spine side that it's impossible to properly open the book.  They're actually narrower than usual.  Those are the ones I haven't read yet.

There are no other books.

I don’t understand what you mean by this.

It's like how they didn't make any Matrix movies.  Just one, and done . . . rather than create lots of shitty sequels that simply detract from the original.  :P
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: chaskavitch on May 24, 2020, 10:04:03 AM
Not only have I read the entire original series, but also most of the prequels written by Herbert's son.  They are actually more enjoyable than the originals!  Whoever the publisher is, though, had bad judgment in book sizing - the more recent paperbacks have such a small margin on the spine side that it's impossible to properly open the book.  They're actually narrower than usual.  Those are the ones I haven't read yet.

There are no other books.

I don’t understand what you mean by this.

It's like how they didn't make any Matrix movies.  Just one, and done . . . rather than create lots of shitty sequels that simply detract from the original.  :P

Or how there are only three Star Wars movies.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: MilesTeg on May 24, 2020, 01:48:28 PM
Not only have I read the entire original series, but also most of the prequels written by Herbert's son.  They are actually more enjoyable than the originals!  Whoever the publisher is, though, had bad judgment in book sizing - the more recent paperbacks have such a small margin on the spine side that it's impossible to properly open the book.  They're actually narrower than usual.  Those are the ones I haven't read yet.

There are no other books.

I don’t understand what you mean by this.


I heard Brian Herbert teamed up with Kevin J. Anderson to write some unrelated books but that the publisher got confused because of the name "Herbert" and though it was a Dune related project.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: markbike528CBX on May 24, 2020, 06:58:01 PM
PTF:
I've heard that subsequent books lack the quality of the first.

Is the decline linear or exponential?

Thanks for the reminder/warning.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: SunnyDays on May 24, 2020, 07:47:29 PM
I don’t know - I read the Frank Herbert ones as a teen, so maybe I wasn’t as discriminating then, but I enjoyed them all.  I liked Brian Herbers books even more because there was more action and character development.  Or maybe I just have lower standards than all you highbrows!
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: dcheesi on May 25, 2020, 05:12:13 AM
Not only have I read the entire original series, but also most of the prequels written by Herbert's son.  They are actually more enjoyable than the originals!  Whoever the publisher is, though, had bad judgment in book sizing - the more recent paperbacks have such a small margin on the spine side that it's impossible to properly open the book.  They're actually narrower than usual.  Those are the ones I haven't read yet.

There are no other books.

I don’t understand what you mean by this.

It's like how they didn't make any Matrix movies.  Just one, and done . . . rather than create lots of shitty sequels that simply detract from the original.  :P

Or how there are only three Star Wars movies.
Or, perhaps the ultimate example:

Highlander movies --there can be only one!
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: Wolfpack Mustachian on May 26, 2020, 10:49:40 AM
You guys have saved me a lot of trouble. I've read the first one and now won't read any others. Thanks!
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: MilesTeg on May 28, 2020, 12:38:26 PM
You guys have saved me a lot of trouble. I've read the first one and now won't read any others. Thanks!

The Dune series covers a timespan of about 5,000 years and doesn't suffer the flaw of trying to maintain the same cast of characters throughout that or attempt to maintain any status quo. It tells a story with a greatly evolving cast and setting (like the real world) even though its core plot and central themes persist. I think that's one of the main things that causes people consternation.

The only book I found to be difficult was God Emperor of Dune, which is most people's stumbling block.

Sadly the series ends on a cliffhanger that foreshadows major and interesting changes. RIP Frank Herbert.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: Wolfpack Mustachian on May 28, 2020, 12:50:12 PM
You guys have saved me a lot of trouble. I've read the first one and now won't read any others. Thanks!

The Dune series covers a timespan of about 5,000 years and doesn't suffer the flaw of trying to maintain the same cast of characters throughout that or attempt to maintain any status quo. It tells a story with a greatly evolving cast and setting (like the real world) even though its core plot and central themes persist. I think that's one of the main things that causes people consternation.

The only book I found to be difficult was God Emperor of Dune, which is most people's stumbling block.

Sadly the series ends on a cliffhanger that foreshadows major and interesting changes. RIP Frank Herbert.

Do you mean the series with his writing or his son's writing that ends in the cliffhanger?
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: MilesTeg on May 28, 2020, 06:02:07 PM
You guys have saved me a lot of trouble. I've read the first one and now won't read any others. Thanks!

The Dune series covers a timespan of about 5,000 years and doesn't suffer the flaw of trying to maintain the same cast of characters throughout that or attempt to maintain any status quo. It tells a story with a greatly evolving cast and setting (like the real world) even though its core plot and central themes persist. I think that's one of the main things that causes people consternation.

The only book I found to be difficult was God Emperor of Dune, which is most people's stumbling block.

Sadly the series ends on a cliffhanger that foreshadows major and interesting changes. RIP Frank Herbert.

Do you mean the series with his writing or his son's writing that ends in the cliffhanger?

Frank Herbert's original works, which are sadly incomplete because of Frank's death.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: mspym on May 28, 2020, 11:13:03 PM
I've read the Frank Herbert Dune series multiple times, the one I've read least often is the second one but I wonder if I was just too young to be that interested in the pitfalls of winning and empire. I tried the Brian Herbert books and, well, couldn't make it through the first one. It felt like the a Wikipedia synopsis of a Dune novel.

And of course as I get older, some of the more egregious male author nonsense starts standing out more (really? Alia practising sword fighting naked? Yeah right) but even Chapterhouse Dune stood up in terms of concept - if the future is foreseen, how can we escape the trap.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: Sailor Sam on May 29, 2020, 04:53:37 AM
I’ve never read Dune (I’m sorry!), but I coincidentally just abandoned completing Frank Herbert’s White Plague. So goddamn slow, and the misogyny was too blatant to endure.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: draco44 on May 29, 2020, 08:15:22 AM
I've read and enjoyed the main trilogy, seen the movies, and am looking forward to the new film.

I don't want to prioritize reading all the other Dune books out there, but for those who have, how was Dune: The Butlerian Jihad, specifically? It would be interesting to learn more about the "no thinking machines!" background of the Dune universe. I've read the wikipedia article for the highlights.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: MilesTeg on May 29, 2020, 12:16:36 PM
I've read and enjoyed the main trilogy, seen the movies, and am looking forward to the new film.

I don't want to prioritize reading all the other Dune books out there, but for those who have, how was Dune: The Butlerian Jihad, specifically? It would be interesting to learn more about the "no thinking machines!" background of the Dune universe. I've read the wikipedia article for the highlights.

The most succinct and non-spoilerly way to put this is: The novel "The Butlerian Jihad" has absolutely nothing to do with the Butlerian Jihad as described in Frank Herbert's work. Your desire to better understand that bit of backstory is not served by reading that novel.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: draco44 on May 29, 2020, 02:21:36 PM
I've read and enjoyed the main trilogy, seen the movies, and am looking forward to the new film.

I don't want to prioritize reading all the other Dune books out there, but for those who have, how was Dune: The Butlerian Jihad, specifically? It would be interesting to learn more about the "no thinking machines!" background of the Dune universe. I've read the wikipedia article for the highlights.

The most succinct and non-spoilerly way to put this is: The novel "The Butlerian Jihad" has absolutely nothing to do with the Butlerian Jihad as described in Frank Herbert's work. Your desire to better understand that bit of backstory is not served by reading that novel.

Thanks. Good to know.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: seattlecyclone on June 01, 2020, 11:57:27 PM
I read the first novel; loved it. I read the second one; liked it. Somewhere in the third or fourth novel I decided to stop reading halfway through, and I don't often put down books I've already started reading.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: davisgang90 on June 02, 2020, 05:00:54 AM
I've only read the first one and that was fairly recently. I enjoyed it, but I'm not sure about the other books.

So, I'm a partial illiterate monster.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: rudged on June 10, 2020, 03:39:07 AM
You forgot "I read Dune and was advised by friends I trust to stop at the end of the first book."

Ha! This is hilarious.  I did not get such a warning, and so I kept reading.  Dune is the only series I know of where each sequel is worse than the one before it.  I don't remember how many I read, but it was too many.
This, so much this.

Slight tangent; how do folks feel about the various Dune adaptations? I have a perhaps unique perspective on the Lynch film, as I saw it long before reading the book(s). As a result, I actually like the movie, though I certainly recognize it as a totally separate creature from the books. I do find it interesting that Lynch, Mr. Unconventional, fell into a very conventional trope regarding the Messianic protagonist:
Spoiler: show
ending the film at the triumphant climax. Which is strange, when the whole point of the books seems to be exploring what happens after that, and how it all goes wrong...


I saw the Lynch film after reading the first book. A complete disappointment. If you hadn't read the book, I think you would have had a difficult time following the movie; and if you had read the book, you would be utterly aghast at how the Baron was portrayed as a buffoon rather than the shrewd calculating villain of the book.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: OurTown on June 22, 2020, 01:36:33 PM
I read all the novels in the series and loved them, albeit unequally.  I don't think of them as getting "worse" as you move through the series.  More like "quirky."  Sort of how the (original) Planet of the Apes movies get progressively more "campy" as you go along.   
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: OurTown on June 22, 2020, 01:38:20 PM
And for you illiterate monsters out there, "Miles Teg" is a major character in the later books with some unique abilities.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: coconutindex on June 22, 2020, 01:43:02 PM
You forgot "I read Dune and was advised by friends I trust to stop at the end of the first book."

Ha! This is hilarious.  I did not get such a warning, and so I kept reading.  Dune is the only series I know of where each sequel is worse than the one before it.  I don't remember how many I read, but it was too many.

Yes! This a thousand times over! First one mindblowing. The rest just blows.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: NorthernMonkey on June 23, 2020, 06:38:20 AM
I have the book, unread, sat on the bookshelf. Is the consensus that its worth reading?

I bought it because Dune II was such a fantastic computer game,
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: grantmeaname on June 23, 2020, 07:28:36 AM
The first one is absolutely worth reading. I read it in one go.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: TomTX on October 15, 2020, 06:47:11 PM
Or, perhaps the ultimate example:

Highlander movies --there can be only one!

One movie, one TV series.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: Well Respected Man on October 16, 2020, 08:22:53 AM
Started it a few times, in my teen years and possibly my 20's. Hated how boring it was, so never got more than a few chapters in. I stopped reading science fiction a long time ago ("television on paper" was how I thought about it when stopping), and now I don't read any fiction. So it's very unlikely that I will ever read it. I might watch the movie though.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: 314159 on October 17, 2020, 01:43:43 PM
Is there a way to change my response to the poll? I voted a while ago, but I have since read Dune. I enjoyed it very much. It's one of my dad's favorite books but I had never got around to it till now. Before I started I was worried about the additional vocab*, but that was not a problem. I took a few weeks off before starting Dune Messiah, which I did not like nearly as much. Is it just me, or does nothing happen (other than plotting) until the last quarter of the book? I do plan to read Children of Dune and then reassess whether the series is worth continuing.

I have to agree with @Ockhamist on Herbert's unsuccessful messaging. In my copy of Messiah, there's a foreword by Brian Herbert, which starts off:
Quote
Dune Messiah is the most misunderstood of Frank Herbert’s novels. The reasons for this are as fascinating and complex as the renowned author himself...The detractors did not understand that Dune Messiah was a bridging work, connecting Dune with an as-yet-uncompleted third book in the trilogy. To get there, the second novel in the series flipped over the carefully crafted hero myth of Paul Muad’Dib and revealed the dark  side of the messiah phenomenon that had appeared to be so glorious in Dune. Many readers didn’t want that dose of reality; they couldn’t stand the demotion of their beloved, charismatic champion, especially after the author had already killed off two of their favorite characters in Dune, the loyal Atreides swordmaster Duncan Idaho1 and the idealistic planetologist Liet-Kynes.

And I'm sitting here thinking, maybe the problem with Dune Messiah is that it's just a worse book?

* Relevant XKCD:
Spoiler: show
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fiction_rule_of_thumb.png)
"Except for anything by Lewis Carroll or Tolkien, you get five made-up words per story.  I'm looking at you, Anathem."
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: MilesTeg on October 20, 2020, 01:04:24 PM
Is there a way to change my response to the poll? I voted a while ago, but I have since read Dune. I enjoyed it very much. It's one of my dad's favorite books but I had never got around to it till now. Before I started I was worried about the additional vocab*, but that was not a problem. I took a few weeks off before starting Dune Messiah, which I did not like nearly as much. Is it just me, or does nothing happen (other than plotting) until the last quarter of the book? I do plan to read Children of Dune and then reassess whether the series is worth continuing.

I have to agree with @Ockhamist on Herbert's unsuccessful messaging. In my copy of Messiah, there's a foreword by Brian Herbert, which starts off:
Quote
Dune Messiah is the most misunderstood of Frank Herbert’s novels. The reasons for this are as fascinating and complex as the renowned author himself...The detractors did not understand that Dune Messiah was a bridging work, connecting Dune with an as-yet-uncompleted third book in the trilogy. To get there, the second novel in the series flipped over the carefully crafted hero myth of Paul Muad’Dib and revealed the dark  side of the messiah phenomenon that had appeared to be so glorious in Dune. Many readers didn’t want that dose of reality; they couldn’t stand the demotion of their beloved, charismatic champion, especially after the author had already killed off two of their favorite characters in Dune, the loyal Atreides swordmaster Duncan Idaho1 and the idealistic planetologist Liet-Kynes.

And I'm sitting here thinking, maybe the problem with Dune Messiah is that it's just a worse book?

* Relevant XKCD:
Spoiler: show
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fiction_rule_of_thumb.png)
"Except for anything by Lewis Carroll or Tolkien, you get five made-up words per story.  I'm looking at you, Anathem."


It's both. Dune Messiah is what that forward says it is and people don't like it for those reasons. It's also not as well written.

Dune was written over decades and was fine tuned after being released in serial form in a magazine. Its not surprising its a much better written piece.

I think you will like Children of Dune. It doesn't suffer from being a 'bridge' work and Herbert's themes start to unfold a bit. That said, it introduces a lot of new characters and can be hard to follow. I found it most enjoyable as a second read after finishing the rest of the series the first time.
Title: Re: Dune: A litmus test
Post by: Dave1442397 on November 06, 2020, 11:51:56 AM
You forgot "I read Dune and was advised by friends I trust to stop at the end of the first book."

So true. It actually took a few false starts before I finally got into Dune, but in the end I loved it. I tried a few of the sequels, but didn't get far with those.

I signed up for the upcoming (January 2021, most likely) Centipede Press edition of Dune, but told Jerad (the publisher) that I wasn't interested in buying the rest of the series.

Some of the artwork for the new edition: https://markmolnar.artstation.com/projects/xVX6m

The Folio Society recently released their edition of Dune at a hefty $695, but it sold out quickly. https://www.foliosociety.com/usa/dune-limited-edition.html