Author Topic: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins  (Read 5537 times)

kenaces

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Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« on: September 07, 2020, 05:24:02 PM »
I found this an interesting read as it has made me reconsider some of what I am doing on my FIRE journey. 

He talks a little about Vicki Robbins idea that we all trade life energy for money but claims we aren't often optimizing how we turn this money back into positive life experiences.

He makes a case for spending while you are still young and healthy enough to get maximum enjoyment.  This hit home for me as I have been diligently saving but have been feeling a little conflicted because I am 50 and really want to go on more hiking/climbing adventures while I still can. 

He stresses how important it is to optimize your spending for each stage of your life.  He thinks many make the mistake of dying with too much money.  In part from 1)overestimating their spending needs later in life due to a fear of running out of money 2)underspending during younger and middle years when you can maximize your satisfaction and compound what he calls the memory dividend for a longer period of time.

Has anyone else read it?  What do you think?

Simpli-Fi

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2020, 05:31:17 PM »
thanks for this tip...sounds like a good read for the stage in my life I'm currently transitioning to

alcon835

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2020, 05:35:03 PM »
Why not both?

Do work that is mostly enjoyable, pays well, and provides the freedom to do the other things you want to do.

Build your spending around a specific lifestyle. Determine what you want to your life to look like and focus your spending on those things.

Save a significant chunk of what's leftover.

That's, more or less, what I am doing. I earn a high income, but that's only bee in the last two years. Even when I didn't, I basically budgeted for my life first and saved the rest.

Being debt free makes this MUCH easier. No car payment, no credit card bills, nothing like that. I owe some on my house, but that's part of my lifestyle spending and I am okay with it.

On the one hand, this way can make FIRE a little slower. On the other hand, I'm doing most of the things I want to do when I retire, it's just slower and in smaller quantities.

kenaces

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2020, 07:22:38 PM »
Why not both?

There are always trade offs to consider - some big and some small.  And this book made me think about these things in a different light.

In my case I can hit lean FIRE in ~10 years with my current savings rate or I can coast to lean FIRE in ~17 years.  My current 10 year plan will mean less trips to the mountains in what might be my last decade of being healthy enough to really enjoy it?  Of course this is simplified but I think you get the idea.

alcon835

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2020, 11:43:48 AM »
That makes a lot of sense. I agree there are various trade offs. Like you, I've mostly chosen to do a slightly slower FI plan in order to go on adventures and try out the world while I'm still young enough to enjoy it all.

Simpli-Fi

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2020, 11:46:47 PM »
Awesome book, I’m only about 50% through it but has realigned my thinking on spending; most significant thought is...any money I die with = xxxxx hours, xxxxx/40 weeks, xx months, or x years I worked for free.

norajean

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2020, 03:47:14 AM »
Why does maximum enjoyment require spending?

Simpli-Fi

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2020, 11:51:34 PM »
It doesn’t...but not spending until zero equals working for free.  The book really focuses on spending on experiences when healthy and spending more than you earn earlier (healthier) in life than traditionally thought; net worth needs a peak and not just rise until you die.

Scio5

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2020, 07:14:13 AM »
I just finished it last night and loved it! I'm grateful that I paid off debt and saved a lot in my 20s, but in hindsight I do wish I had gone on a few adventures and taken some risks before I got into my current career. The story about his friend going into debt to take a once-in-a-lifetime backpacking trip through Europe especially resonated with me. One of my goals in FIRE is to be able to enjoy slow travel like that, but that experience will be very different even in my early 40s compared to what it would have been in my 20s.

Other things I'm thinking more about now:
- The approach to use insurance (like long-term care insurance or an annuity) to cover yourself long-term vs. trying to save a million or more to cover any life/health outcome and effectively self-insure against those risks. Does anyone else have experiences or opinions about this?

- If your goal is to save a bunch to give to your kids or charity after you die, why not just give them the money now (or in the case of minor children, put in a trust)?

iris lily

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2020, 08:42:21 AM »
I just finished it last night and loved it! I'm grateful that I paid off debt and saved a lot in my 20s, but in hindsight I do wish I had gone on a few adventures and taken some risks before I got into my current career. The story about his friend going into debt to take a once-in-a-lifetime backpacking trip through Europe especially resonated with me. One of my goals in FIRE is to be able to enjoy slow travel like that, but that experience will be very different even in my early 40s compared to what it would have been in my 20s.

Other things I'm thinking more about now:
- The approach to use insurance (like long-term care insurance or an annuity) to cover yourself long-term vs. trying to save a million or more to cover any life/health outcome and effectively self-insure against those risks. Does anyone else have experiences or opinions about this?

- If your goal is to save a bunch to give to your kids or charity after you die, why not just give them the money now (or in the case of minor children, put in a trust)?

I can contribute to this thread because it’s something that’s been on my mind this year especially. We are old. We have now drawing  Social Security and pension. Between all of those income sources we don’t need anything from our stash.

So what is our plan for the stash? What is our endgame? We don’t have children and it is not important to me to leave anything to humans. I would love to give large gifts to organizations, I mean large ones, now. But here’s the dilemma: we don’t know about nursing home costs in our future. I do not want to impoverish my spouse.

Were it me alone, with half the amount of money we have? I would be giving bigger gifts. But I’m protecting my spouse now by giving little gifts.

But I will also say that he doesn’t know or understand what I mean when I ask him what is our end game with our assets? What do we intend to do?  It’s his idea that we plug along as we always have, using money “as we need it. “He won’t recognize a large giving plan. This pisses me off.

I am perfectly happy Dying Broke. But that is so much easier said than done because you don’t really know how much you’re going to need in the last few years of life, I.e. skilled nursing/institutional care.And your spouse. Cant use all the stash because part of it belongs to him.

And long-term care insurance is not viable. It’s really not viable for us at this age, and I’m doubtful that it’s viable anymore for anyone at any age.

Read up on it you will find it it’s not much of an option anymore. It worked nicely for my mother but she was a different generation.

I have not read the book this thread is based on, but there are some earlier book called Die Broke. I assume it is the same concept. The same ideas are recycled every few years.

Scio5

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2020, 07:24:19 AM »
I started reading more about long term care insurance and annuities, and it looks like you're right that LTC insurance might be going the way of the dodo. I did a quick search on annuities in this forum and I had no idea that they were so divisive, with most people being very strongly anti-annuity in most if not all cases. So that was pretty discouraging.

I don't know enough about how Medicare works in old age either. If you're in a nursing home and you run out of money in your 90s with no heirs, do they just...kick you out onto the street?

I'm only in my 30s and the women in my family tend to live to their 90s, so barring accidents I hope to live a very long life. 60+ years is also a very long time for the health care and elder care system in the US to change drastically, for better or worse.

iris lily

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2020, 02:02:22 PM »
We do not have annuities.

I think they may be fine for some people in some circumstances making up some of one’s  income. See all those qualifiers “may” and “some?” They’re probably not universally bad but they’re not the best choice for savvy thoughtful investors.

iris lily

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2020, 09:53:00 AM »
I started reading more about long term care insurance and annuities, and it looks like you're right that LTC insurance might be going the way of the dodo. I did a quick search on annuities in this forum and I had no idea that they were so divisive, with most people being very strongly anti-annuity in most if not all cases. So that was pretty discouraging.

I don't know enough about how Medicare works in old age either. If you're in a nursing home and you run out of money in your 90s with no heirs, do they just...kick you out onto the street?

I'm only in my 30s and the women in my family tend to live to their 90s, so barring accidents I hope to live a very long life. 60+ years is also a very long time for the health care and elder care system in the US to change drastically, for better or worse.

First of all, Medicare does not cover nursing home cost for long-term care because Medicare is a health care policy.

When someone needs long-term care, meaning custodial care with some nursing care, they can live in a nursing home. Nursing homes are called several things but “ nursing home” is the old-fashioned term for it Most people recognize that term.

So to your question —it depends on the nursing home. In my experience most of them take Medicaid. See,  Medicaid is the program for poor people, so that means one has to have exhausted all one’s resources before the taxpayer starts to  pick up your tab in a nursing home.

stoaX

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2020, 09:42:53 AM »
I started reading more about long term care insurance and annuities, and it looks like you're right that LTC insurance might be going the way of the dodo. I did a quick search on annuities in this forum and I had no idea that they were so divisive, with most people being very strongly anti-annuity in most if not all cases. So that was pretty discouraging.

I don't know enough about how Medicare works in old age either. If you're in a nursing home and you run out of money in your 90s with no heirs, do they just...kick you out onto the street?

I'm only in my 30s and the women in my family tend to live to their 90s, so barring accidents I hope to live a very long life. 60+ years is also a very long time for the health care and elder care system in the US to change drastically, for better or worse.

First of all, Medicare does not cover nursing home cost for long-term care because Medicare is a health care policy.

When someone needs long-term care, meaning custodial care with some nursing care, they can live in a nursing home. Nursing homes are called several things but “ nursing home” is the old-fashioned term for it Most people recognize that term.

So to your question —it depends on the nursing home. In my experience most of them take Medicaid. See,  Medicaid is the program for poor people, so that means one has to have exhausted all one’s resources before the taxpayer starts to  pick up your tab in a nursing home.

Good explanation.  Even though I have FIRE'D I still think about how much I should have put aside to ensure I have enough to get into a high quality assisted living / nursing home if it ever happens.  Preferably one that would keep me if I live long enough to spend down all my assets.

iris lily

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2021, 12:47:03 PM »
I started reading more about long term care insurance and annuities, and it looks like you're right that LTC insurance might be going the way of the dodo. I did a quick search on annuities in this forum and I had no idea that they were so divisive, with most people being very strongly anti-annuity in most if not all cases. So that was pretty discouraging.

I don't know enough about how Medicare works in old age either. If you're in a nursing home and you run out of money in your 90s with no heirs, do they just...kick you out onto the street?

I'm only in my 30s and the women in my family tend to live to their 90s, so barring accidents I hope to live a very long life. 60+ years is also a very long time for the health care and elder care system in the US to change drastically, for better or worse.

First of all, Medicare does not cover nursing home cost for long-term care because Medicare is a health care policy.

When someone needs long-term care, meaning custodial care with some nursing care, they can live in a nursing home. Nursing homes are called several things but “ nursing home” is the old-fashioned term for it Most people recognize that term.

So to your question —it depends on the nursing home. In my experience most of them take Medicaid. See,  Medicaid is the program for poor people, so that means one has to have exhausted all one’s resources before the taxpayer starts to  pick up your tab in a nursing home.

Good explanation.  Even though I have FIRE'D I still think about how much I should have put aside to ensure I have enough to get into a high quality assisted living / nursing home if it ever happens.  Preferably one that would keep me if I live long enough to spend down all my assets.

My brother shopped around quite a lot to find the right nursing home for my mom. I always thought it was a perfectly fine place. She paid privately with her own funds supplemented with LT?c insurance.funds.

The only difference  in Medicaid patients versus private pay patients was that private pay patients got their own room. And granted that’s a really big deal. But all other services were exactly the same.

But I do understand the not not all nursing homes are the same that way. I’ve
heard of some that have Medicaid  floors and those are certainly different from the private pay floors.

Edited to insert Medicaid for Medicare. I really do know the difference.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 08:22:14 AM by iris lily »

kenaces

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2021, 08:08:27 AM »
I have not read the book this thread is based on, but there are some earlier book called Die Broke. I assume it is the same concept. The same ideas are recycled every few years.

I read Die Broke ~20 years ago and while I am sure there is some overlap(Isn't there always in any book on $) - This author's focus was mainly on how to maximize the value of every dollar you spend through the lens of happiness.

It is also interesting to me that this thread has shifted to LTC and annuity discussion.  I don't think the book mentioned anything about LTC, and had an only passing reference to annuities as one method to assure you die with zero.

LibrarianFuzz

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2021, 07:17:51 AM »
I just finished this book myself, and what I got out of it, personally, was: most people are delusional about what their physical health and energy levels will be in retirement. Things that sound really fun to you and interesting in your 20's, 30's, and 40's may hold little appeal and/or be too physically uncomfortable for you or downright impossible in your 60's, 70's, and 80's.

The classic example is going backpacking around Europe and staying in youth hostels. Fun in your 20's. Not quite so appealing as you get older, if only because your age is out of sync with the rest of the hostel crowd and its much harder to make spontaneous friendships as you travel.

The whole book made me think of a friend I have known for a few decades. In her 50's and 60's, she frequently wanted to travel but denied herself because she didn't want to "waste" the money. She was always afraid of not having enough money. For that reason, she worked until she was 68. She's got two pensions, Social Security, a paid off house, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in her investment accounts. Now she is in her mid 70's and just doesn't have the energy, stamina, and interest that she used to. She leaves the house to go grocery shopping and walk her dogs. She has more money than she could ever spend in her lifetime, and very little interest in spending it. She has to take her required minimum distribution from her IRA each month because of her age, and she just donates the whole thing to charity.

Longwaytogo

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2021, 12:04:22 PM »
I just finished the book yesterday and absolutely loved it. It felt like some validation to the way I've been living my life along which has consistently run against the frugality and delayed gratification many on the boards here preach.

At 40 with 2 kids and Covid hindering many travel options (or at least making them more stressful/less appealing) I'm as happy as ever with the experiences and travels I did in my twenties even though it did leave me a pile of debt to deal with in my thirties.

It also gave me a renewed motivation to try to get my health and fitness back on track after being a bit lax during the Pandemic. I've got a lot of years left and I need to be healthy enough to enjoy them!!!

May post more later as I'm on my phone on vacation now; but great book IMO

brandon1827

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2021, 12:22:13 PM »
I also haven't read this book, but it sounds somewhat close to my own personal philosophy. While I want to put enough away to take care of myself and my wife, and leave some for our son, I whole-heartedly believe in enjoying the journey and not falling into the "let's save every penny and then finally have fun when we're retired" mindset. To each his own, but if I have to work a little bit longer in order to make memories with my family and enjoy it as we go, then so be it. It may not be very mustachian, but I'm okay with that.

ixtap

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2021, 02:50:10 PM »
I don't see a save every penny then enjoy life mindset here very often. And when it does show its head, there are a number of posters who will point out that no matter where you go, there you are and it is ideal to build your best life now and carry that into the future.

We do expect to drastically change our lifestyle once we FIRE, but we are not depriving ourselves now to achieve that later. That lifestyle is actually expected to be cheaper than the one we have now, since the first thing we will do is give up the condo that we have only been renting to make DH's commute easier. His yoga studio and PT are in the same neighborhood, but hopefully he will be done with PT and he has been building his home practice for when he is no longer close to his favorite teachers.

Simpli-Fi

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2021, 04:10:14 PM »
Time, Health, and Wealth...all finite but please use to the best of your ability

chasesfish

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2021, 06:47:27 AM »
Wading into this...

Great book!   There are just some things that are more difficult to do as you get older and worth spending money on today.  It's an interesting perspective from someone who's very much fatFIRE, but at the same time there are experiences to not pass up when you're in your 20s and 30s.  Don't miss phases of life.


LifeHappens

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2021, 09:58:04 AM »
I just started this book. The first lesson I'm learning is to not try to read this before going to sleep! It grabbed my attention and kept me up too late.

Longwaytogo

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2021, 10:05:49 AM »
I just started this book. The first lesson I'm learning is to not try to read this before going to sleep! It grabbed my attention and kept me up too late.

Ha! I can relate.

I've read LOTS of personal finance, self help, happiness, etc. type books over the years and for some reason this one really seemed to resonate and hook me.

Philociraptor

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2021, 10:14:42 AM »
Posting to follow and mention that the book is still $2.99 on Kindle at the moment.

MissNancyPryor

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2021, 10:54:15 AM »
I worked with a guy who suddenly quit his high paying job so he and the wife could go cruising on a sailboat in the Caribbean.  They are DINKS, so obviously this played a role in their being able to bum around so completely for so long.  They were out there for 2 years.

Apparently they returned and got jobs again, now living several states away, so that is a new adventure for them as well. 

Go live an extraordinary life. 

oneday

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2021, 11:02:46 PM »
I just started this book. The first lesson I'm learning is to not try to read this before going to sleep! It grabbed my attention and kept me up too late.

I just picked up a copy from the library today. I appreciate this caution! Will start reading tomorrow or Friday.

oneday

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2021, 10:51:28 PM »
I just started this book. The first lesson I'm learning is to not try to read this before going to sleep! It grabbed my attention and kept me up too late.

I just picked up a copy from the library today. I appreciate this caution! Will start reading tomorrow or Friday.

My cat forced me to finish this today. He wouldn't get off my lap!

I spent the first half to two thirds of the book ranting & disagreeing with most of what was written. In particular I took issue with his assertion that when he was making $16K-$18K, he should not have saved $1K. And he calls himself an honorary billionaire because of his spending levels.  It all seems so fool hardy to me.

I finally realized that I'm not the target audience. He's talking to a mostly younger crowd with higher earnings and a higher earnings potential than me. Also, people who don't necessarily want to FIRE.

I *do* agree with a lot of it and even see how it is in alignment with the MMM/FIRE philosophy to some extent. Perkins just seems to focus on the experiences that cost a lot of money, while MMM advocates doing the things that bring happiness but are also inexpensive/free.

I'm not sure who could disagree with, "strike the right balance between spending on the present (and only what you value) and saving smartly for the future" (p 106). I agree. But I the early chapters seem to be not about balance at all, but only the spending on experiences. That was hard to get through.

I'm glad I read it and glad I got over myself enough to read and absorb the full message. I will be calculating the "survival threshold" annually just to keep an eye on the stash getting too big/avoiding miserliness. 

Other than that, I don't feel like there are any tweaks I can make to my life at this point based on the advice in this book. I'm 45 and in good health; I have no problems doing things appropriate to a healthy 45+ y.o. that also align with my interests as opportunities open up (I kinda get the feeling that Perkins suffers from a lot of regret or deep fear of regret? Or he's playing on the readers fears to "sell" his philosophy?). It's an odd time because of pandemic constraints, so kind of bad timing for the book. But it's not impossible to get "experience points" anyway.


@kenaces LTC insurance and annuities were mentioned in chapter 3 as a way to insure/ensure one does not run out of money for living expenses or nursing care in later life.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2021, 11:08:23 AM »
Great reflections @oneday! I liked the overall message of living intentionally and not putting things off until some future date (that's such a prevalent attitude here on MMM, e.g. once I reach FIRE, life will be grand and I just have to grind it out until then).

The mindset of consuming expensive experiences and "the business of life is the acquisition of memories" didn't really resonate.

Liked the recommendations to take more chances when you're younger, examine any fears holding you back, and realize that you always have a choice. "The choices you make reflect your priorities, so be sure you're making those choices deliberately."

As someone once said, if you're waiting to do what really matters, you're missing the point.

grantmeaname

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2021, 11:10:28 AM »
I will be calculating the "survival threshold" annually just to keep an eye on the stash getting too big/avoiding miserliness.
Would love to hear more about this...

oneday

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2021, 05:24:09 PM »
@Roots&Wings I am in agreement with most of what you said. Excellent distillation of the important points!

@grantmeaname it is annual expenses x remaining life expectancy x factor, where the factor is a percentage of what you actually need because the stash is invested, so it's accounting for the earnings over time. His rule of thumb is 70% and he says that's appropriate for investments with returns of 3% after inflation. Higher returns would mean you'd use a lower %. And he says you should not allow your stash to get over this number, if you want to die with zero.



Did anyone else calculate their remaining life expectancy? I used the SSA calculator, but it says it's a really simple one and maybe not accurate. Still, I would think they'd have access to the largest data set.

I tried a random one and the John Hancock one. Got a range of 12 years from highest to lowest, which seems like a lot. So I'm wondering if anyone has one they trust?

chasesfish

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2021, 04:44:16 AM »
I will be calculating the "survival threshold" annually just to keep an eye on the stash getting too big/avoiding miserliness.
Would love to hear more about this...

This was also a fascinating factor for me.

We early retired 2.5 years ago or so, the stash has grown 35%, plus I'm still bringing in a little "extra" money.   Breaking miserliness habits is not easy.

Longwaytogo

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2021, 03:37:24 PM »
Great reflections @oneday! I liked the overall message of living intentionally and not putting things off until some future date (that's such a prevalent attitude here on MMM, e.g. once I reach FIRE, life will be grand and I just have to grind it out until then).


Yeah every time I see someone say they're in the "boring middle" I cringe and think THAT'S YOUR WHOLE LIFE MAN. You gotta mix in fun today with saving for later IMO

The mindset of consuming expensive experiences and "the business of life is the acquisition of memories" didn't really resonate.

I don't know, I kind of liked that part. Some of his super expensive stuff was a bit off putting/humble billionaire braggy but in general I think the idea that your memories will be all your left with is true.

Like he was saying when his father was dying; once you've lost your physical ability to do XYZ fun thing your memories of the times you did it would be priceless I would think.

As someone once said, if you're waiting to do what really matters, you're missing the point.

I like that quote as well :)

Longwaytogo

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2021, 03:43:35 PM »
Did anyone else calculate their remaining life expectancy? I used the SSA calculator, but it says it's a really simple one and maybe not accurate. Still, I would think they'd have access to the largest data set.

I hadn't; though I always assumed I'd die youngish 65-70. But we'll see I guess; anything beyond that I'll consider a bonus (;

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Here's a weird one that just gave me a bit of a chill. Went to the SS site you linked above and put in my Birthdate:

Current age: 40 and 10 months
Estimated years left : 40.9

Total average life expectancy:  81.7

So according to Social Security's estimate in like 6 days I'll be exactly half way through my time on earth :P


Longwaytogo

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2021, 03:47:20 PM »
Breaking miserliness habits is not easy.

Breaking spendy habits isn't any easier. I honestly think after spending years here there's a lot of "we are what we are" and only so much we can change. But maybe other folks have an easier time switching gears then me.

oneday

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2021, 08:12:55 PM »
The mindset of consuming expensive experiences and "the business of life is the acquisition of memories" didn't really resonate.

I don't know, I kind of liked that part. Some of his super expensive stuff was a bit off putting/humble billionaire braggy but in general I think the idea that your memories will be all your left with is true.

Like he was saying when his father was dying; once you've lost your physical ability to do XYZ fun thing your memories of the times you did it would be priceless I would think.

For me the bold didn't resonate, but the other half of that quote did. I have lots of memories. Some from expensive experience, but far more from cheap or free experiences.  Reading this book actually brought to mind many of these memories and I've been enjoying that :) One of my best memories was how hard we all were laughing one night sitting around with my ex and two of his brothers, just joking around. Free! I mean, not really, because someone had to pay for the house we were in, the furniture we sat on and the food & booze we were consuming, but nobody paid to rent out a couple of island resorts for this event the way Perkins did for this 45th birthday. I bet nobody there laughed harder than the four of us did that night!

If one were to were dwelling on a bunch of unaffordable things, then one could become dissatisfied with their life. Many have learned to save up and prioritize. That's important for all the non-millionaires who read the book. I don't feel he emphasized that aspect very well. I can easily imagine someone coming away from the book then going bankrupt trying to follow the advice to make memories, and especially if they modeled their experiences on most of the examples in the book.

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2021, 06:07:36 AM »
Agree good memories are important! I guess what put me off was his over-the-top humble billionaire braggy (love that @Longwaytogo) expensive experiences to acquire those memories. And the "business of life" phrase...my life ain't a business.

Those free memories, laughing together, etc. can be some of the best.

EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more, focusing on the epic big experiences instead of the day-to-day life and relationships that make up the bulk of your experience seems like a huge part of consumerism, that can fuel a lot of escapism and consumption. It's easy to get caught up in that kind of thinking at the expense of building a life you'd want live every day and making that fulfilling and memorable. I guess it's a balance for everyone.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 10:23:33 AM by Roots&Wings »

Longwaytogo

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2021, 07:18:10 PM »
Agree good memories are important! I guess what put me off was his over-the-top humble billionaire braggy (love that @Longwaytogo) expensive experiences to acquire those memories. And the "business of life" phrase...my life ain't a business.

Those free memories, laughing together, etc. can be some of the best.

EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more, focusing on the epic big experiences instead of the day-to-day life and relationships that make up the bulk of your experience seems like a huge part of consumerism, that can fuel a lot of escapism and consumption. It's easy to get caught up in that kind of thinking at the expense of building a life you'd want live every day and making that fulfilling and memorable. I guess it's a balance for everyone.

I guess I don't recall the "business of life phrase" too much; or at least it didn't catch my attention or annoy me enough to remember it.. Glad you like my Billionaire humble braggy, lol.

IMO an awesome memory can be free/cheap like your kid scoring their first run or throwing their first strike out in little league as easy as it can be a ritzy trip to the Caribbean.  To me part of what he was saying (but maybe not clearly) was to make the memories whether the cost be in money or time. For example the go getter workaholic missing all their kids little league games chasing the all mighty dollar to save for "some day" vs living for the current day.


The mindset of consuming expensive experiences and "the business of life is the acquisition of memories" didn't really resonate.

I don't know, I kind of liked that part. Some of his super expensive stuff was a bit off putting/humble billionaire braggy but in general I think the idea that your memories will be all your left with is true.

Like he was saying when his father was dying; once you've lost your physical ability to do XYZ fun thing your memories of the times you did it would be priceless I would think.

For me the bold didn't resonate, but the other half of that quote did. I have lots of memories. Some from expensive experience, but far more from cheap or free experiences.  Reading this book actually brought to mind many of these memories and I've been enjoying that :) One of my best memories was how hard we all were laughing one night sitting around with my ex and two of his brothers, just joking around. Free! I mean, not really, because someone had to pay for the house we were in, the furniture we sat on and the food & booze we were consuming, but nobody paid to rent out a couple of island resorts for this event the way Perkins did for this 45th birthday. I bet nobody there laughed harder than the four of us did that night!

It's funny, my main takeaway from his birthday trip was his sentence like "everywhere you went there was your old high school buddy at breakfast or your Mom at the bar; or a old coworker on the beach"  It's almost as though the people he spent the trip with were more a part of the fun/fond memory then the glitziness/cost of the trip.

Made me think of the vast majority of my own travels that are with friends and family; they are the main source of the fun with the destination almost a background character. Our annual beach trip usually features 25-30 folks between Siblings, uncles, cousins, friends etc. And that's camping in our own state for $30 a night :)

If one were to were dwelling on a bunch of unaffordable things, then one could become dissatisfied with their life. Many have learned to save up and prioritize. That's important for all the non-millionaires who read the book. I don't feel he emphasized that aspect very well. I can easily imagine someone coming away from the book then going bankrupt trying to follow the advice to make memories, and especially if they modeled their experiences on most of the examples in the book.

Yes he did seem to really come form a voice of privilege and was speaking more to his rich tightwad friends and over workers then the average Joe. Could of used a few more caveats of "cover your cost and have an emergency fund first" type of thing on the Finance front. I guess to me I viewed it more of a lifestyle/happiness book then a Finance book so he was just using his own experiences as examples not so much as exactly how to.

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Interesting how we all interpret the same material differently. Seemed like he rubs some folks the wrong way while I personally loved the book. Different strokes for different folks and all :)

Malcat

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2021, 08:07:29 PM »
Great reflections @oneday! I liked the overall message of living intentionally and not putting things off until some future date (that's such a prevalent attitude here on MMM, e.g. once I reach FIRE, life will be grand and I just have to grind it out until then).

The mindset of consuming expensive experiences and "the business of life is the acquisition of memories" didn't really resonate.

Liked the recommendations to take more chances when you're younger, examine any fears holding you back, and realize that you always have a choice. "The choices you make reflect your priorities, so be sure you're making those choices deliberately."

As someone once said, if you're waiting to do what really matters, you're missing the point.

That may be a common refrain here, but it's not at all the basis of anything Pete ever promoted.

That's the point of distinguishing between frugal and cheap. Frugality is supposed to give you your BEST life for a lower cost, because there are lower cost ways to get it.

Being cheap means denying yourself the things you need for your best life, just for the sake of saving more money.

Frugality is a lot like healthy eating, there's no reason for it to be unpleasant or feel like deprivation.

dblaace

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2021, 10:50:43 AM »
I've only read through chapter 3, but the numbers are crazy, especially Elizabeth. Makes me question any the numbers.

oneday

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2021, 06:39:57 PM »
Elizabeth?

dblaace

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2021, 04:22:38 AM »
Elizabeth?
A fictitious example in chapter 3.

LifeHappens

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2021, 01:16:17 PM »
For anyone who wants a decent TL:DR of the book, it's available here:
https://summaries.com/blog/die-with-zero

An excerpt of the main points:
Quote
How to Plan and Fund Your Retirement
1. Rule #1 — Maximize positive life experiences. Don't wait until you retire to start doing stuff you like. Start actively having the life experiences you want to have now. Have lots of meaningful and memorable experiences.

2. Rule #2 — Invest in experiences early. Your life is the sum of your experiences, and when you look back you'll remember the richness of those experiences. Plan the experiences you want to fit in and start now.

3. Rule #3 — Aim to die with zero. Ideally, you should aim to die with zero — having spent your money on having great personal experiences, taking care of your family, and leaving a legacy. That's the aim.

4. Rule #4 — Use all available planning tools. You don't know exactly when you will die, but there are tools available which will give you a rough idea of what your life expectancy is. Use those tools as part of your planning.

5. Rule #5 — Give money to kids/charity early. Give your children whatever you have allocated for them before you die. There's no point in waiting until you're gone. That way you can give when it has the most impact on their lives as well.

6. Rule #6 — Don't live life on autopilot. There are no universal laws when it comes to personal finance and balancing competing demands. Don't live on autopilot, be prepared to make constant, personalized changes.

7. Rule #7 — Plan in terms of seasons. We all die eventually, and you'll pass through several stages or seasons before then. Make sure you plan your experiences accordingly, rather than blithely assuming you'll go forever.

8. Rule #8 — Know when to stop. There is an optimal point at which you should stop working for maximum lifetime fulfillment. Figure out what that is before you blow right past it. Nobody on their death beds wishes they had spent more time at the office.

9. Rule #9 — Take big risks early, not later. The younger you are, the more risks you should be taking, and the bolder you should be. Identify opportunities that pose little risk and go for it. You won't be able to do this once you get older.

dadbod

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2021, 05:26:10 AM »
I read this after seeing the recommendation here and liked some of the materials.  I'm still thinking about it a week later so that's good.  Two things I was a little uncertain about were his emphasis on experiences instead of relationships in maximizing happiness and his (apparent) fear of aging.  I'm not sure I buy the assumption that money has less utility in providing happiness at later ages. 

Recommend Triumphs of Experience: The men of the Harvard Grant Study for a bit of a deeper view. 

Malcat

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2021, 05:43:20 AM »
I read this after seeing the recommendation here and liked some of the materials.  I'm still thinking about it a week later so that's good.  Two things I was a little uncertain about were his emphasis on experiences instead of relationships in maximizing happiness and his (apparent) fear of aging.  I'm not sure I buy the assumption that money has less utility in providing happiness at later ages. 

Recommend Triumphs of Experience: The men of the Harvard Grant Study for a bit of a deeper view.

lol, yeah, as someone with health issues that are more common among older people, it's actually the opposite, it costs more to sustain your quality of life as you get older and more infirm. I would say that the younger and more vital you are, the easier it is to do everything cheaply.

Travel isn't expensive if your body can handle long coach flights on cheap airlines, or long car rides, shitty mattresses or camping, and a lot of walking. As your hands start having pain, it's harder to DIY home repairs, cook and clean. As your hips, back and knees go, it becomes difficult to impossible to bike anywhere.

This fear of aging and inifirmity creates a logical error in people that I see often, that basically life pretty much ends once they get ill. But that's not at all the case, life just gets logisitically more complicated, but just because you develop a lot of physical limitations doesn't mean you aren't the same person with the same needs and desires.

So if failing health is the concern in terms of quality of life, then it's better to have more resources to spend when the cheaper options that require an able body stop being easily available.

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2021, 02:13:25 PM »
So I finished the main part of the book and am going back through the recommended steps. The one that I'm having the most trouble with is the time bucketing exercise. He says to "think about what key experiences - activities or events - you definitely want to have during your lifetime. We all have dreams in life..." etc. The problem is I find the statement to be untrue for myself: I do not have dreams in life, nor are they really any particular experiences I feel that I need to have. Honestly the only solid goal I have going right now is to save up enough money to retire; I know that I do not enjoy surrendering so much of my time towards accumulating money to fund my life, so that goal is a home run. The rest of my "goals" are more on the avoidance side of life: don't get divorced, don't let go of your health, etc. Any additional recommended reading from the group to help with this?

Malcat

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2021, 03:30:58 PM »
So I finished the main part of the book and am going back through the recommended steps. The one that I'm having the most trouble with is the time bucketing exercise. He says to "think about what key experiences - activities or events - you definitely want to have during your lifetime. We all have dreams in life..." etc. The problem is I find the statement to be untrue for myself: I do not have dreams in life, nor are they really any particular experiences I feel that I need to have. Honestly the only solid goal I have going right now is to save up enough money to retire; I know that I do not enjoy surrendering so much of my time towards accumulating money to fund my life, so that goal is a home run. The rest of my "goals" are more on the avoidance side of life: don't get divorced, don't let go of your health, etc. Any additional recommended reading from the group to help with this?

You don't need to have specific adventure dreams, and if you are experiencing any level of burnout, it can be difficult and exhausting to try to.

However, there's something really off with you using negative frames like "don't get divorced and don't let go of your health"

My main goals are "keep my marriage wonderful and keep myself as mentally and physically healthy as possible."

Your position only protects some status quo of what you have, mine opens an enormous door of possibilities to meet my very lofty goals.

If travel and adventure are the best things for maximizing my marriage and mental&physical health, then that's what I'll do. If it's having hobbies, I'll do that. If it's volunteering, I'll do that. If it's doing paid work, I'll do that.

I don't need a laundry list of specifics, if I'm focused on maximizing the key elements of my life to make them the very best they can be, then the specific activities to do that will become self evident along the way.

My advice is not to try and read some book to establish some kind of bucket list of adventure goals. My advice is to work on your overall mental health, because you don't sound like you are thriving.

LifeHappens

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2021, 03:36:21 PM »
I'm still processing some things from this book. It's challenging in some ways and affirming in others. It's also far more a psychology/philosophy book than a financial book.

The financial bits of it were the weakest part, in my opinion. Asking hard questions about what you want from life and being realistic about how much time you have left to do those things are the parts that are sticking with me.

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2021, 03:55:08 PM »
I'm still processing some things from this book. It's challenging in some ways and affirming in others. It's also far more a psychology/philosophy book than a financial book.

The financial bits of it were the weakest part, in my opinion. Asking hard questions about what you want from life and being realistic about how much time you have left to do those things are the parts that are sticking with me.

Agreed; more of a lifestyle book then a $$$ book for me too.

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Re: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2021, 02:27:12 PM »
I've been brainstorming ways to increase the "memory dividend" of my experiences per the book. One thing I've always done is keep a paper journal of my bigger trips, like flying to Europe or South Africa. Why not extend that to more ordinary experiences like watching the sunset on the beach or going to a minor league baseball game?

And I really am going to print out a few of those 1,000s of digital photos! For real this time!