Poll

Should the WW clan move?

Hell yes! School and peers are the most important thing.
37 (63.8%)
No, kids need stability more than amazing schools, they'll be fine.
14 (24.1%)
Try out private school or some other option and stay put.
7 (12.1%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: What would you give up for great schools?  (Read 84952 times)

Dee18

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2023, 09:51:16 AM »
"Finding a rental large enough for our family is also a challenge."

Doesn't your family have 2 adults and 2 kids?

MrGreen

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2023, 11:08:42 AM »
This is a very interesting thread to me, with some responses that are about geographic areas that are local to us. We're in the more unusual position of having FIREd and then having a child. Currently discussing whether a second is in the cards.

We live in the Wilmington, NC area now and I'd echo the sentiments others have expressed about touristy economies. Wilmington is a decent sized city with a state college so it's not a complete bifurcation of classes but it's still not an area you move to without a job. It's also not an area I'd want our daughter to be in as a young adult due to more limited opportunities. Our local school district is one of the best in the metro area but it's very suburban/white flight. I'd like her to experience more diversity.

Travel is a really strong pull for us, and we are mountain people living at the beach so we've contemplated moving closer to what we love doing one day. However, I wonder whether those environments will be best for our daughter. We have plenty of time to figure this out since she's not 2 years old yet.

I had hoped to home school her early, for numerous reasons, chief among them that it frees us from being geographically tethered. We'd really like to be able to continue to roam as long as possible. Walt's comment about his kids not responding to their teaching though was kind of eye opening to me. Maybe this isn't such a big deal when they're young. I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable homeschooling beyond early middle school anyway.

There's a lot of food for thought in this thread and I'm thankful for the discussion!

FINate

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2023, 11:44:44 AM »
We did home schooling for a year during the pandemic with mix success. I think a lot of it comes down to the personality of the kid. Our oldest did NOT want to receive instruction from us, is extrinsically motivated, and strongly introverted. We had difficulty getting her to participate in social activities. Our youngest is highly intrinsically motivated and extroverted. She did great with home school but it was clear that she desperately needed more social interaction. It was great that we could individually tailor their instruction and fill in learning gaps (their previous public school left some pretty enormous holes). And the freedom to travel and do our own thing was wonderful. But in the end it made more sense to enroll them in our local schools (new location, new and better schools).

As for mountains and mountain towns: I've become a fan of medium to large cities near enough to mountains for hobbies, but where tourism isn't the main draw. Real cities with normal people working regular jobs. Cities with 100k+ population, within an hour or so of mountain stuff. Places like Portland, Seattle, Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake City, Denver, Ft Collins. Ideally, older neighborhoods laid out on a grid, within walking distance of school and shopping. Plenty of people for community, but close enough to the outdoors. The biggest issue with these places are how busy activities can be within 2 hrs of the city, but this usually isn't an issue for those who are FIRE and can get out mid-week.

Villanelle

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2023, 12:02:33 PM »
"Finding a rental large enough for our family is also a challenge."

Doesn't your family have 2 adults and 2 kids?

Yes. I'm confused by this answer as well.  Finding a 2 bedroom apartment, or similar, is a challenge?  It's starting to seem like the answer to the title of the thread is "not very much".   Which is a perfectly fine, respectable answer, but then the challenge is working on being okay with that answer and that ranking of priorities (or adjusting the current reality so that in its confines, things improve a bit), or changing the answer if OP isn't okay with his (and his spouse's) current answer of 'not willing to give up very much'.   

Freedomin5

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2023, 02:26:45 PM »
"Finding a rental large enough for our family is also a challenge."

Doesn't your family have 2 adults and 2 kids?

I think OP has three kids. Two school-aged kids and a 3-year-old.

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #105 on: November 25, 2023, 06:50:58 PM »
Our entire family is unable to sleep (except for my wife and I) in close proximity to any other member of the family. We have tried and tried but the kids simply can't share bedrooms.

So we need 4 bedrooms. We're currently in 3 and the 4 year old sleeps with my wife and I. Not a great setup.

-W

Just_Me

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #106 on: November 25, 2023, 07:55:47 PM »
Our entire family is unable to sleep (except for my wife and I) in close proximity to any other member of the family. We have tried and tried but the kids simply can't share bedrooms.

So we need 4 bedrooms. We're currently in 3 and the 4 year old sleeps with my wife and I. Not a great setup.

-W

Huh, expanding your space footprint is also a priority.

What does your family think about this? How have those conversations gone?

You don't have to do anything formal, especially with the kids. When you are getting in quality time doing whatever it is you do, pop a question like "what do you think about moving somewhere where there's more people interested in things that you like?" Leave it open ended on purpose without chasing a yes or a no.

If there's a strong reaction to it, chances are there are some strong feelings about something with the current situation.

If there is a desire to move, that is when you can broach sacrifices like needing to downsize or share a room. If you're unhappy and you have to share, that just makes it worse. But if the pain is in the name of greater gain, maybe the two older can share a room while you and DW finally [nominally] sleep with the 4yo in another room in a 3br. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 08:51:06 AM by JJ- »

Morning Glory

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #107 on: November 26, 2023, 08:02:20 AM »
If the older kids don't want to share because the 4 y/o might get into their things, you might compromise by letting them store their things in your room so the 4 y/o can sleep in theirs. That worked with my 2 boys when we had a 2 br.

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #108 on: November 26, 2023, 10:35:46 AM »
We have tried every combination of sleeping arrangement, trust me. The 11 year old wakes up the 9 year old wakes up the 4 year old and vise versa all the way back up the chain.

There's not an issue with toys or possessions, they don't have much in the way of stuff outside of sports gear (which isn't stored in their rooms anyway). It's simply that every single one seems to be an active/loud and simultaneously easily awakened sleeper. We've spent a fortune on white noise setups, blackout blinds, eyemasks, weighted blankets, and the list goes on and on. We've tried all sorts of bedtime routines, and even changes to their diets. No dice. They have to have separate rooms (this also makes staying in hotels next to impossible, and it caused us to sell our #vanlife van a few years back after only owning it for 6 months!)

If we owned the place we're in now I might try adding a wall to split a bedroom into two tiny ones. We tried hanging blankets to split it up but that failed.

-W

StarBright

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2023, 07:34:56 AM »
We have tried every combination of sleeping arrangement, trust me. The 11 year old wakes up the 9 year old wakes up the 4 year old and vise versa all the way back up the chain.

There's not an issue with toys or possessions, they don't have much in the way of stuff outside of sports gear (which isn't stored in their rooms anyway). It's simply that every single one seems to be an active/loud and simultaneously easily awakened sleeper. We've spent a fortune on white noise setups, blackout blinds, eyemasks, weighted blankets, and the list goes on and on. We've tried all sorts of bedtime routines, and even changes to their diets. No dice. They have to have separate rooms (this also makes staying in hotels next to impossible, and it caused us to sell our #vanlife van a few years back after only owning it for 6 months!)

If we owned the place we're in now I might try adding a wall to split a bedroom into two tiny ones. We tried hanging blankets to split it up but that failed.

-W

I just want to say I really feel this post! We tested my kids sharing a room for a few months as we were gearing up for a move, hoping it would mean we could downsize for a few years.

It was great to test it out, but it was a nightmare. No one was getting sleep and everyone was a cranky mess all of the time.

Our kids weren't great sleepers to begin with and had just settled them into decent sleep, getting up only once or twice a night, and then we ruined it by making them share a room (they were around 5 and 3) and we had another year of bad sleep for our youngest as we undid the damage.

Now that they are older (12, 10) they have totally different needs when falling asleep- one likes a little light, complete silence, and a closed door, the other one wants lots of white noise, an open door, and a warmer room.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #110 on: November 28, 2023, 09:09:36 AM »
Can you imagine life back when families lived in one-room cabins?  They were used to it and it worked because it had.

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #111 on: November 28, 2023, 09:26:43 AM »
Can you imagine life back when families lived in one-room cabins?  They were used to it and it worked because it had.

I mean, we tried it. For months and months. Nobody got used to it.

We'd make shitty pioneers, I agree.

-W

Dancin'Dog

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #112 on: November 28, 2023, 10:04:25 AM »
Can you imagine life back when families lived in one-room cabins?  They were used to it and it worked because it had.

I mean, we tried it. For months and months. Nobody got used to it.

We'd make shitty pioneers, I agree.

-W




Sub 20f nights sure trained our dogs how to behave indoors.  Turning the thermostat down 10-15 degrees in the Winter might do the trick.  lol 

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #113 on: November 28, 2023, 11:24:10 AM »
Sub 20f nights sure trained our dogs how to behave indoors.  Turning the thermostat down 10-15 degrees in the Winter might do the trick.  lol

Our lease doesn't allow us to turn the heat down below 60 (which is where we leave it), but it's at least 5 degrees colder in the bedrooms than by the thermostat in the living area, so it's not super hot or anything.

Like I said, we've tried it all (they definitely don't sleep if it's hot, of course).

-W

EverythingisNew

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2023, 11:04:13 PM »
I didn’t read the whole thread, but I want to respond to the main question of moving for schools. Yes, I think it’s worth it.

We lived in two different scenic vacation towns, but ultimately moved last year to a suburban area in another state for the excellent schools. Very similar to the OP’s story! Both scenic towns were wonderful times in our lives, and it was very hard to leave… I still miss them both. Now I see that it was definitely the right decision!!

Things our new elementary has that our last 2 schools did not:
- elementary school gifted program for math and language arts
- elementary band and orchestra
- elementary Spanish and mandarin programs
- amazing teachers are the norm
- elementary before and after school TEACHER LED clubs
- parent involvement in the classrooms
- excellent programs for IEP and special needs

My kids are very smart so I often thought they were doing fine regardless of the school, but now they are getting cool opportunities and being pushed from other adults, not just their parents. For example, I used to encourage my daughter to read, but now she is in a before school book club and reads constantly without me mentioning it. I don’t have to do any extra school!

Another big benefit are the people. The people are more educated and similar to my friends group from college or work. I have more friends here which is so nice. My kids have more friends too!

Much more group sports and community activities. I think the lack of scenic makes people really into soccer, 😂

More interest in music and foreign languages. Both my husband and I started playing instruments again! It’s our hobby now. Two of the kids play instruments. One kid studies a foreign language.

We are happy we moved. Sure, we miss the scenic beauty, but I also like getting into music and having friends that are similar to us. I miss the quiet, because it’s definitely more urban here. Yes, I would say we moved here for the schools - but it’s also a nice place to hang out for a few years. It feels like home.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 11:12:58 PM by EverythingisNew »

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2024, 04:44:24 PM »
2024 update - I think I've finally convinced DW that we cannot continue to live in ski resort towns with kids. Which sucks because she has a really good group of friends here now, and the opportunity to buy a deed restricted house for basically nothing. It just isn't healthy for the kids long term, though.

Both school age kids have now been accelerated by a grade but the reality is that's a bandaid. We do plan to finish out the school year for the sake of stability, however, unless a house we like falls in our lap. We've actually made offers on a couple but not gotten them, so who knows. Target town has a typical RE selling season in the spring, so even if we got an offer accepted in April or May we'd probably not move the kids until the end of school. Seems pointless to move kids with a few weeks/month of school left.

-W

Telecaster

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2024, 06:15:00 PM »
Have you considered a place like Bellingham Washington?    It is not a mountain town, but it is near-ish to a ski mountain.   Robust mountain biking community as well, and lots of nearby outdoor opportunities.   

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2024, 06:42:46 PM »
Have you considered a place like Bellingham Washington?    It is not a mountain town, but it is near-ish to a ski mountain.   Robust mountain biking community as well, and lots of nearby outdoor opportunities.

Been burned twice now, so we're going for a place we know (I grew up there, we visit regularly) to have a ton of nerds and excellent schools. A quick google says the 'Ham is much too big for us, appears to have mediocre public schools, and also is not much cheaper than our ski resort digs. But I'd love to visit sometime, I hear the mountain biking is awesome.

-W

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #118 on: January 21, 2024, 09:06:33 AM »
Makes sense to go for a place you know. I'd say Bellingham is also different from most mountain towns in that it's also a college town, which definitely flips the dynamic a bit for having post-college students, professors, etc.

Telecaster

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #119 on: January 21, 2024, 11:45:52 AM »
Good luck with your move. Sorry you have to deal with all this. 

rothwem

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #120 on: January 22, 2024, 08:06:01 AM »
I thought a lot about this thread over Christmas.  I meant to post but things have been crazy. 

I've posted about living in Asheville--the slacker "cool guy" attitude that pervades is irritating as hell.  I'm from Central Maryland, roughly halfway between DC and Baltimore, in a place known for excellent schools.  I had my pick of APs and I went into college as a sophomore because all of the AP credits I had.  I went back home for Christmas though, and man, the hustle culture is stifling too.  Lots of smart people, lots of pressure to perform.  I make less in Asheville than I would in Maryland, and the majority of my family just thinks I'm an idiot for not working where the money is. 

Finding the balance is a tricky thing. 

Finances_With_Purpose

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #121 on: April 09, 2024, 09:49:16 PM »
Our entire family is unable to sleep (except for my wife and I) in close proximity to any other member of the family. We have tried and tried but the kids simply can't share bedrooms.

So we need 4 bedrooms. We're currently in 3 and the 4 year old sleeps with my wife and I. Not a great setup.

-W

I feel you.  Sleep doesn't seem that vital...until it's missing.  Then it's everything.

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #122 on: April 09, 2024, 10:26:08 PM »
I actually have an update! We formally pulled the plug (resigned our teaching gigs effective at the end of the school year) and will be giving nerdville a test run starting in July, because we are under contract on a house, finally.

The market in my old hometown is totally insane (as in, we made a 10% over asking offer on another place recently with all contingencies waived and weren't even in the running) but we found an off market home that actually belongs to the son of my childhood piano teacher. and were able to leverage that old connection.

It's beat to hell and needs a ton of work and thanks to the crazy market we had to basically buy it as-is for a fairly outrageous price (for there, at least). I have been squirreling away excess money in Ibonds and other boring safe stuff to pay for it since we can only qualify for a hilariously tiny mortgage so we also probably lost $100k in missed investment earnings or something terrible.

So financially not a great move but not super relevant in the grand scheme of our finances. If we hate it and move away and take a bath on the house it won't really change our lives meaningfully, and as someone posted earlier we have a problem that is worth throwing money at.

It's got 5 bedrooms (one with a separate entrance and bathroom) so we can hopefully either bring granny to live with us (something that is in the cards in the near future probably regardless of where we live) or have some rental income if we throw a tiny Ikea kitchen in it or something like that.


I have to say, though, I'm not as relieved as I thought I'd be. I tear up when I think about saying goodbye to all the kids I teach, and our kids do love to play in the snow and never experience temps over 75 degrees or so. I'll sure miss 100k worth of amazing nordic skiing right out the door. But as a family we spend most of our waking hours at school so I'm hopeful it will be great. If not, we'll just move back having learned a lesson about what we really value, I suppose.

-W


reeshau

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #123 on: April 10, 2024, 05:38:23 AM »
If not, we'll just move back having learned a lesson about what we really value, I suppose.

The hardest school is the school of life.  Congratulations on finding an answer, and good luck on the adventure!

Laura33

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #124 on: April 10, 2024, 07:00:04 AM »
WOW -- what an update!  Congratulations on making the leap!!  Here's hoping it works out for you and the kids.  I suspect if your kids are happy, you will be much happier overall, but that doesn't mean you won't miss the good things that you're giving up. 

FINate

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #125 on: April 10, 2024, 07:42:03 AM »
Congratulations on the move! And thanks for the update, always nice to hear what actually happens on threads like this.

If you're anything like me you'll go through waves of buyer's remorse and doubts about the move. The actual move will be exciting at first, but around 3-6 months you'll hit a low point of missing your old home while your new home doesn't quite feel like home yet. It doesn't help that this low point will probably coincide with winter. Get a light box, take vitamin D supplements, and hang in there. A new normal will start to take root at around 1 year, and by year 2 you'll feel fully established. This is where it's invaluable to be clear on values and motivations to get you through the low points.

I'll also suggest that the first year in a new place is a great opportunity to establish yearly traditions. Make a list of seasonal activities, events ,sports, clubs, etc. that you want to do. Put these on the calendar and do them.

The yearly rhythm of activities can also include visits to your current resort town. Do the stuff you love, but keep in mind that these places are often better to visit than live full time, and you moved for good reasons.

Best wishes with everything, looking forward to future updates.

Kathryn K.

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #126 on: April 10, 2024, 07:58:31 AM »
Congratulations on the move! And thanks for the update, always nice to hear what actually happens on threads like this.

+1! Appreciate the update and happy to hear you are able to try somewhere that hopefully will work better for your family. If you can come back to this thread and post an update occasionally post-move that would be very interesting to hear as well.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2024, 08:11:50 AM »
Congrats on reaching a decision & having a plan! Wishing you all the best of luck, and like other PPs, would love an update at some point.

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #128 on: April 10, 2024, 08:23:38 AM »
this low point will probably coincide with winter.

Thanks for the kind words... but maybe you should read more carefully. We live at 10,000 feet in CO right now, it's been winter (which we love) since early/mid November. It's snowing right now, actually, and I'm headed out to ski.

That is frankly the biggest concern - only having a couple months of winter rather than 6. We'll see how it goes!

-W

FINate

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #129 on: April 10, 2024, 08:32:13 AM »
this low point will probably coincide with winter.

Thanks for the kind words... but maybe you should read more carefully. We live at 10,000 feet in CO right now, it's been winter (which we love) since early/mid November. It's snowing right now, actually, and I'm headed out to ski.

That is frankly the biggest concern - only having a couple months of winter rather than 6. We'll see how it goes!

-W

Good point. This old man is getting forgetful. Though I think the issue with winter in most places is lack of sun, not the snow or cold. Not sure if Nerdville has more or less sunlight than CO.

Oh, and I'm also going skiing today, though probably the last day of the season for me. Happy trails!

AMandM

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2024, 07:07:57 AM »
Your post about algebra made me revisit this one, which I thought I had posted in. Congrats on the move! We moved for similar reasons, though not involving schools, about 10 years ago and although we took a financial hit, the social/community dividends have been just what we hoped.

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #131 on: July 24, 2024, 09:11:21 AM »
Another update! We've been here a month. Daughters have both already made friends with other super smart kids on our street/in our neighborhood. Son who is a super introvert will hopefully meet some kids once school starts in 2 weeks.

So far the heat (it gets to high 80s here sometimes) hasn't been bad. Mountain biking is a big step down from what we're used to but there are some trails to ride.

So far so good. We'll see for sure when school gets going.

However I wasn't super happy to read about this (paywall): https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/17/health/moving-childhood-depression.html

-W

FINate

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #132 on: July 24, 2024, 11:03:18 AM »
Thanks for the update. Glad your daughters are doing well, hopeful for your son in the coming weeks.

I wouldn't read too much into that study. While it seems sound (to be clear I only did a quick review), the way journalists report on these is problematic. There's a tendency to jump to conclusions in an effort to make these applicable and actionable for readers. Problem is, correlation does not imply causation. There are almost certainly confounding factors  explaining the correlation, but it doesn't look like they did regression analysts to isolate variables. Families that move often are more likely to have unstable home environments due to frequent job changes, relational issues (e.g. frequent changing partners), and so on. In other words, it's quite possible (likely even?) that an unstable home environment cause people to move, not the other way around.

It would be interesting to see if they differentiate between the effects of local vs. long-distance moves. The former should mean no/minimal changes to one's social network, whereas the latter would be by definition more disruptive. If they found that local moves produced the same results this would strongly suggest some other unidentified factor is at play. The fact that this study was limited to Denmark, a very small country seems to indicate they are mostly looking at mostly local moves.

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2024, 08:16:34 AM »
4 month update. TL;DR - some good, some bad

We've been here for about 4 months now and I can't honestly say so far so good, but so far, so ok, maybe.

We like the schools a lot. There are 30 or so 7th graders in algebra instead of 2. Gifted kids get 3-4 hours a week of dedicated instruction time with a GT teacher, rather than... nothing. Kindergarten has 2 adults in the classroom at all times so the kids can actually learn. Kids overall are super, super capable and there are virtually no behavior problems. Teachers also generally great.

So all good on that front.

The outdoors is mixed. I enjoy the mountain biking a lot but the rest of the family has effectively quit riding because the trails are very, very difficult - basically black/double black for everything. So that's a bit of a bummer for me since I don't get to go riding with my family anymore.

Skiing, which just got started, is a similar story. Just much less available and what's here isn't as appealing. We'll see what happens but it's looking like the kids have all effectively quit skiing now as well.

All of that is ok for our daughters who prefer swimming/soccer/gymnastics/etc anyway and were never that into mountain biking or skiing.

But our son. Oh, jeez, our son.

He's getting straight A's in the most advanced classes offered and has earned himself some sort of professional CAD certification in OnShape, which is great, but he has zero friends and refuses to even interact with other children in any setting. He has quit mountain biking (there is a mountain bike club here that he refused to join) and skiing (ditto) both of which he at least grudgingly participated in back in Breckenridge. So his days are pretty boring and depressing as far as I can tell and he spends most of his time basically moping or drawing things that look to me like melted Romulan warships in CAD and muttering to himself. I'm not sure how much longer he can go on like this before he has some kind of full blown mental breakdown.

Super frustratingly, he actually made a good friend in Breck... 2 weeks before we moved away (much too late to change anything). So I think he is mourning that loss.

There's not much here in terms of healthcare and especially mental health care, and he's been in numerous forms of therapy which did nothing useful. So I'm not sure what to do but so far the move has been an absolute disaster for him. I worry that it's the kind of turning point which ruins a kids life. He's approaching the age where I'm worried about drugs and/or suicide.

So anyway, not sure whether to call this a failure or a success thus far. It's mostly everything we hoped but at this point I'm pretty sure every move we've made was the wrong one. Maybe more time will sort things out for our son. Hopefully. The lesson might be that it *isn't* worth giving up any of the things that make you (or at least family members) happy in exchange for great schools, I guess.

-W

Laura33

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2024, 08:47:16 AM »
So sorry to hear about your son's struggles.  I have two pieces of advice that contradict each other: (1) a lot of this is normal; and (2) keep paying close attention and talking, because you're right that there's a very real risk here.

On 1:  we noticed with DS that when he hit the teen years, he sort of slowly withdrew from a bunch of things he used to enjoy.  Some of it was situational (e.g., the MS had IM basketball and rec leagues, none of that existed at the HS levels); some was world events (his freshman year was the Covid year).  But I think in retrospect that a lot of it was developmental.  DS is like me in that he spends a lot of time living in his head, and he likes to work things out in his own mind before he is willing to talk about it -- plus he's Mr. Silent-But-Deadly, who figured out at a very early age that if he smiled and was nice to everyone, he could basically do whatever he wanted (until he was busted).  There's a reason we have the tropes about sullen teenages who lock themselves in their rooms with big "Keep Out" signs on the doors.  And as parents, we need to give kids that age the space and privacy they need to handle all of the big physical and emotional and social changes they're dealing with -- and we need to support them in ways that show we understand that they are not the same kid they were at 5 or 8.

On 2:  unfortunately, those same things that can be completely normal can also be a signal that something is seriously wrong.  And it's really, really freaking hard to tell the difference.  My own DS had a major breakdown sophomore year, I think largely from the whiplash of "normal to 18 months of Covid to normal," and particularly adjusting from freshman year no-expectations-minimal-academics to "ok, now here's all your AP classes."  And despite all of my efforts, I could not tell the difference between "lazy and not wanting to do schoolwork" and "major depression" until he literally posted a note on his door that he could not face going to school.

I think all you can do is to work really hard to keep communicating, keep some sort of routines of things you guys do together, keep working to find things that interest him -- but, of course, do all that while giving him space and not pushing him to do things he doesn't want to do.  I do love that fact that he is so into CAD; really, for kids that age, the most important thing is that they're really into something, and what that "something" is almost doesn't count (as long as it's not destructive).  Is there some way you can build on that to open the communication doors more?  That would show him that you see him for who he is, and gives him a chance to show off to you something that he's really good at.  If you can meet him where he is, he might be a little more willing to do something like go on periodic dad-son hikes or whatever.

And if you figure out the magic balance, please let all of the rest of us know. . . . 

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #135 on: November 12, 2024, 08:49:57 AM »
@waltworks - I'm so sorry about the stress you're feeling for your son. This may be controversial, but have you thought of requiring a sport or outside club? My parents required one sport per season throughout my life, and we did the same with our kids. I have a son in college, and the expectation we gave (he's a total introvert, and would game all day if we let him) was that he needed to 1) join at least one club 2) participate in at least one physical activity. It doesn't come naturally to him at all, but as a result of our requirements, he played club soccer for 11 years & met a ton of people that way. In college, he's joined the kendo & ski club. If we didn't really push, I think he'd wind up doing nothing. He's 18, and we debated back & forth whether it was appropriate for us to have a say at this point, but we're paying for college, and our goals are well intentioned: have him stay healthy & meet people. He's at an age now where we can clearly communicate that we aren't looking to control him, but are looking to set him up for success.

reeshau

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #136 on: November 12, 2024, 09:24:55 AM »
If he is really into CAD, and not just doodling, is there a makerspace he could join?

I came from a small town.  I had friends, and we got along.  I am still in touch with my best friend from those days.  But going to college was a breath of fresh air, because I found so many people that liked *so much* of what I liked.  Anything that popped into my head was going on in several of theirs, too.

Your son might just need to find his tribe.

Our local Y has a mobile makerspace to get into neighborhoods that might not have reliable transportation.  This includes a lot of programmable robot toys and Snap Circuits, but also several small 3D printers.

And, for sure, keep an eye on him and keep talking with him, in case it's more than just adjustment to the new situation.

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2024, 11:39:00 AM »
@waltworks - I'm so sorry about the stress you're feeling for your son. This may be controversial, but have you thought of requiring a sport or outside club?

Thanks for the thought. We tried this and there is so far no bribe ($2000 3d printer!) or threat (we're taking away X,Y,Z if you don't!) that has been sufficient to get it to work. There is literally nothing he wants (or fears losing) enough to get him to do any of the clubs or activities (and there are a TON!) that are available.

We started from gentle encouragement and escalated to bribery (we haven't actually threatened him with anything since that has backfired in the past) and so far no dice.

We're talking about a kid who doesn't ask (this has been the case his whole life) for Xmas or birthday presents and has, as far as I can tell, zero interest in physical possessions whatsoever.

-W

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2024, 11:44:00 AM »
Your son might just need to find his tribe.

They're here. There's a maker space type club (I think he's a bit beyond most of the kids but whatever), robotics, mathcounts, D&D, and the list goes on and on. There are athletic nerds, there are nerdy nerds, there are artsy kids, there are awkward smart kids, there are mountain bikers and rock climbers and skiers (and those cross over with all the other categories) - they're definitely his people. But he won't even talk to them (I mean this literally, I have witnessed kids saying hello to him and him completely ignoring them and walking away).

Our hope was that finding his people would solve some of this problem. What we didn't realize is that he'd rather stew in his own misery than talk to new people even in a controlled setting.

-W

Hadilly

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2024, 10:58:56 PM »
So….. therapy? Social skills classes at school? I hope you are looking into these things for your son.

Two of my kids did classes and worked with a great therapist (one in the school and one privately) in elementary school. Putting in the work, spending some time framing how to make friends as a skill, and developing a social toolbox were invaluable. Both kids now have excellent friend groups.

I’m sorry to hear things are tough.

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #140 on: November 13, 2024, 08:13:01 AM »
Oof. That's tough. I haven't been in a situation where our kids have outright refused to follow our family guidelines (although, homework has certainly crept to the top, at times). When it does, following through on taking all electronics away for a period of time absolutely gets people on track.

I'd be pretty concerned about the way he flat out ignores those trying to be friendly, and his lack of desire/inability to talk to the other kids, even in a space he's interested in. I second the recommendation for therapy, although I think you've said you've tried that before. Have you asked for recommendations locally for someone who might be a good fit for your kid? If you are worried about the future potential for suicide or drugs, and don't see progress being made socially, I'd absolutely be intervening.

Can I ask what helped him make the friend right before you move? Was it exposure (e.g. he just saw the kid so many times over a year that he eventually caved & was friendly?) Or, was there something else that you think helped in that particular case that maybe you can replicate? 

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #141 on: November 13, 2024, 08:37:06 AM »
He's been in therapy continuously for 3 years to absolutely no effect. But we will be trying again, I guess.

A brief history, if it helps anyone. It helps me to just write it out I think.

-Prior to the end of 4th grade, he had friends. Not lots of friends but good ones who he liked spending time with.

-At the end of 4th grade he did something dumb on his school issued computer and got suspended for 2 days/in lots of trouble. This coincided with DW being blacklisted by the school district because of a newspaper editorial.

-We moved away from that town and in Breckenridge he struggled to make any friends. We attributed this mostly to the kids being not very nerdy/not his kind of kids in 5th grade and figured he'd have a bigger pool of potential friends in middle school/6th grade.

-6th grade rolled around and he again made no friends, but he did participate in some sports teams (soccer, briefly, and mountain biking/skiing).

-He refused to even *tour* the private school where there were more nerdy/smart kids, and even went so far as to refuse to attend even when DW was offered a job teaching science there. At that point we pulled the plug on Breckenridge and made plans for our move to our current location (which as discussed upthread is very nerdy/smart and in theory a good fit for him/the whole family).

-In June, literally 2 weeks before we moved, he decided to finally befriend a kid down the street who we had been trying to get him to hang out with for the last 2 years. They built potato cannons together and treehouses and generally had a great time being junior engineers/trying to blow themselves up. But by that point there was no turning back, we had already bought a house and our lease was ending.

-In our new town he has ... just faded away. He has basically stopped all fun activities, refused to interact with any other children, and done his best to make our lives hell. Yesterday he took the dinner I had made and threw it straight into the trash in front of me. He refuses to put his dirty clothes into a basket so they can be washed so we told him he can do his own laundry - and he has called that bluff by simply never changing his clothes. He literally wears the same dirty clothing (including to bed) for weeks at a time.

We just have no leverage with him whatsoever it seems.

Therapy hasn't worked. A variety of anti anxiety meds haven't worked. I have no clue what to do but I am so tired of this.

-W

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #142 on: November 13, 2024, 08:50:02 AM »
This sounds so challenging. Sending virtual internet good thoughts that things improve.

jeninco

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #143 on: November 13, 2024, 09:04:23 AM »
Has the kid had a full medical workup lately?

I ask because some friends had a child with what looked like oppositional disorder and suicidal ideation (I mean, the suicidal ideation part was pretty clear) and what they thought were severe migraines. Turns out the kid had a years-long severe sinus infection, and was in significant pain ALL THE TIME.  When that was treated, everything got substantially better. (Not perfect, she's a teen, but much, much better.)

I agree that things sound pretty dire, and send all the best wishes. I wonder if you, your DW, and the kid can meet with a therapist to get the kid's opinion about what's wrong?

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #144 on: November 13, 2024, 09:15:36 AM »
He's had his usual checkups and there is nothing physically wrong that we know of. I would love it if there was some physical problem that could be solved!

We have done family therapy with him and he fully refuses to engage. He will stick to his guns on refusing to answer questions indefinitely. Like, as in *years* of sitting in silence or at best saying "I don't know" in answer to any question. So that was a failure. He has likewise refused to really engage with therapists one on one so nobody ever gets anywhere with him. He will not give us any insight into what he wants (or doesn't want), full stop. The combination of intelligence (super high) and stubbornness (ditto) is not my favorite thing at this point.

Annoyingly enough, that stubbornness does not translate into trying hard at things that are difficult for him. He flips out and quits when things get hard.

I'm so, so tired of him ruining things for the whole family. I feel bad saying that but at this point I just feel hopeless about the situation. I've started to disengage from him a bit just so I can spend a reasonable amount of time with the girls, who have been ignored a lot over the last few years as this drama consumes all of our mental resources.

-W


reeshau

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #145 on: November 13, 2024, 09:45:24 AM »
Walt, if you'll pardon the armchair psychology:

The part that seems incongruous to me is that he's getting all A's.  Stubborn behavior is common with gifted kids, but troubles typically also lead to greatly reduced school performance.  And, I can't see him getting those grades while exhibiting the same disengagement with the class.

Have you talked with his teachers, to compare notes?  Maybe there is something there to work with.

You have a really difficult problem on your hands. We will do anything for our kids.  But, I totally agree with your rational thought that the girls need attention, too.  You don't want to accidentally teach them that only problems bring attention.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 11:12:18 AM by reeshau »

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #146 on: November 13, 2024, 10:01:53 AM »
Agreed, it's weird. His teachers generally report that he is very quiet but will talk if called on. He participates in group work when necessary but not enthusiastically.

7th grade is not very hard for him, so it might just be that even minimal effort is enough. Academic standards here are very, very high but he was on track to skip a few grades in our old school district so it might just be really easy. He IS doing all his work, though, and you'd think that would be the obvious thing to stop doing as part of his defiance/burn it all down thing.

If he'd just tell us what's bugging him we might be able to do something.

-W

The Hin

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #147 on: November 14, 2024, 07:30:54 AM »
Might there be some way to direct your son's existing interests into a larger project that would naturally involve collaboration with other people? I have seen you mention building treehouses, potato guns, AutoCAD. Maybe he would be interested in doing design/build of a more advanced structure than he's done in the past, or a robot or something, that would benefit from and/or require the assistance of another person (maybe you but not necessarily so).

I see you mentioned your son gives up when faced with challenges, but is also an extremely gifted child. That's a tough combo! I could see him flatly refusing to engage with or follow through on any idea you present to him unless he fully embraces it as his own - and if he is resistant to stepping outside of his current comfort zone it can be awfully hard to break out. Best of luck!

chasingthegoodlife

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #148 on: November 14, 2024, 02:20:15 PM »
That sounds really rough Walt. It's clear from your posts that you love your son and would go to great lengths to support him.

I'm going to give a slightly different take from other comments above, based not on any experience parenting teens (mine is still much younger) but on my memories of what it was like to be one.

Is it possible that years of therapy and great effort from you and his mother to engage him in social activities has him feeling like a 'problem to be solved' and there is a lot of internal resistance to following through with anything his perceives as your suggestion or goal for him?

What would happen if you reframed this as normal teen behaviour? You have a son who is kicking ass at school, has a personal passion (CAD), prefers his own company, and is having an understandable slump adjusting to a new environment. He isn't doing drugs or becoming an Andrew Tate disciple (that you know of). Plenty of kids aren't into sports.

Could you take the focus off any kind of 'improvement' for a while, tell your son he is doing amazing just the way he is, that moving to a new place is rough for a lot of people and he can come to you if there is something he wants to talk about or wants help with? Without pressure from parents to rebel against, might he start to want some of these things for himself?

It sounds like you need to take some time to focus on your girls (and maybe on settling yourself in too!) anyway, so it might be a good time for trying a different approach with your son.

(This is not to downplay the seriousness of your concerns. I think Laura's post is spot on in that regard).

waltworks

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Re: What would you give up for great schools?
« Reply #149 on: November 15, 2024, 08:28:03 AM »
Well the good grades mystery is solved, he's suddenly failing 3 of his classes. :(

It's looking like he'll get booted from his advanced math class potentially as well as his shop/engineering class, which are the only things he actually likes. So we're in full crisis mode here now, not sure what's going to happen.

-W