What would you give up for great schools?

[Dee18]

My daughter’s high school allowed her to take the AP courses but wait until later in  the semester to decide whether or not to take the exams. 

[waltworks]

FWIW, I don't give a crap about whether college credit is available for AP classes. I just want opportunity to do challenging stuff/be around kids who are similarly capable.

I could see how that could be a consideration in other scenarios but for us it's just not relevant.

-W

[jeninco]

FWIW, I don't give a crap about whether college credit is available for AP classes. I just want opportunity to do challenging stuff/be around kids who are similarly capable.

I could see how that could be a consideration in other scenarios but for us it's just not relevant.

-W

I support this position! Whatever people think about AP courses, they're more advanced, they move faster, and for better or worse there's less left to the teacher's discretion. (Which might not be a win in the instance that you have a truly awesome teacher, but if your teacher is in the great 70% of "not that bad" to "pretty good" it's good to have a standardized syllabus.)

FWIW, my oldest just finished at a small, highly-selective liberal arts college, and they took some of his AP credits (I think up to a cap of 4 or so, and only when he'd scored a 5? And there were some other limitations: I believe they accepted his Calc BC credits only after he'd passed the next math course in the sequence with a reasonably good grade). I think they took his Spanish AP score in lieu of him having to take a year of a language. (I actually have opinions about the wisdom of that, but ... whatever, man.)

My youngest, at a larger (but still fairly selective) state school, probably got credit for most of the AP courses for which he took tests. He definitely had the option to skip classes he'd already "taken" . (He wisely chose not to do so for one or two classes he needs to know solidly for his major.)

[FINate]

I would move. Not for the schools, but for the culture. We started out in a touristy resort town, surf and skate scene, similar dynamic to mountain resort towns. It's difficult to understand the dynamic unless one has lived in this type of environment for a while. Expensive with low local wages, which results in socioeconomic bifurcation with almost no middle class and a mix of uber rich vs. impoverished service workers struggling mightily. Lots of DINKs, few families, lots of vacation homes. There's often pressure for kids to excel at the local sports (skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, surfing, etc.), which means less of an emphasis on academics or any other aspect of life. In our former beach/tourist town this included a lot of social pressure to be "cool" by living the surfer/skater lifestyle. It just wasn't a good fit for us even though DW and I grew up there.

Bend, OR was on our short list relocation candidates, but after visiting it was a big nope. Very clearly another version of tourist/resort town. Been there, done that, not interested in that scene again. Especially for our kids. We ended up choosing Boise, in large part, because it's not a tourist destination. We have skiing and outdoor stuff, but it's not the "best" and for us this is a feature not a bug.

IMO, community is the most important thing. Go where your kids can make friends and be who they are. Great schools are an added benefit. Same with lower cost of living. Keep the mountain home as a rental, and a place where you can vacation. But day to day, it's so much better to have neighbors that you enjoy being around and who actually have time to be present.

[Chris Pascale]

• Agreed about the AP classes. They are overrated, and generally not accepted by colleges. I've been saying (based on real experience as a student, parent and teacher) that AP courses are good for prep, but expect for none of those credits to move from high school to college. If you want your kids to have college credits, they should just take classes at a college, like a night, weekend or online courses in a real college classroom; not something in high school

Is this a new thing? All of my APs were accepted by the large state school I went to, but that was 20 years ago.

Perhaps the move into a public school made the difference. I initially went to a Catholic University and the 12 credits equated to 0 upon entering. Other friends had the same experience.

As a result, I encouraged my kids to take trade classes to get additional skills, and to spend a year as an exchange student.

[Dee18]

I should add that the AP classes paid off in a way for my daughter. A year after she finished college she moved back to our home city.  She had a day job, but her high school teachers asked if she would take on some tutoring…. For which she was paid $35 an hour, that then went up to $50. It was a great part time gig before she got a better full time job.

[startingsmall]

As others have pointed out, I think it's helpful to separate "great schools" from a community culture. The two things are often correlated, but not always. We used to live in a small Southern town where a lack of socioeconomic & ethnic diversity created "great schools" (based on standardized test scores), but aspirations were low and football reigned supreme. There weren't many nerdy, academic, motivated kids (or if there were, they worked hard to keep that under wraps).

We currently live in a coastal retirement community. As has been discussed above, our community population exists at two extremes: wealthy retirees and families who mostly work in service jobs. The schools are mediocre, but the big problem is that education really isn't valued around here. We're homeschooling next year, for this reason.

Last week, my daughter attended a STEM summer camp in a city ~1 hr away (because nothing like that exists in our community). She was blown away by how cool the kids were, how nerdy (in the good way) they all were, how little bullying there was, and how much more background knowledge those kids appeared to have than her. That community has great schools (comparable to the ones in the small town we lived in previously), but it's also a bigger city and one that attracts more professionals.

We're planning to move away from this community soon, but I'm unsure where we'll go next. I've been thinking A LOT about schools and kid community, so this thread has been really good food for thought! The trick is to identify the communities that don't just have good test scores, but ALSO have intellectual curiosity.

[startingsmall]

FWIW, I don't give a crap about whether college credit is available for AP classes. I just want opportunity to do challenging stuff/be around kids who are similarly capable.

I could see how that could be a consideration in other scenarios but for us it's just not relevant.

-W

I agree with this. It's great if some credits count for college, but the main benefit is to boost the overall rigor of your kid's transcript.

I started at a state honors college, then transferred to a large state university. My AP courses were treated differently by those two schools, and getting any credit at all was an unexpected perk. I mainly took AP courses to a) avoid boredom, and b) show academic rigor on my transcript. (Apparently it worked, because I was accepted to every college I applied to... including Williams, which was #1 in selectivity for liberal arts schools at the time. Affording those selective schools was another matter entirely, but at least I got in! LOL) Avoiding college coursework was never the goal.

[waltworks]

I agree with this. It's great if some credits count for college, but the main benefit is to boost the overall rigor of your kid's transcript.

Let me be more clear: I do not care about their transcripts or how good they look to the admissions committee at Yale or anything like that. I want the kids to have smart interesting friends. Any halfway decent college has plenty of smart interesting people so they don't need to primp and preen for admissions officers because we don't care about that (and if they care, they can certainly get into any university they want if they work hard). College is just extended high school anyway, grad school is what actually matters.

-W

[rothwem]

I would move. Not for the schools, but for the culture. We started out in a touristy resort town, surf and skate scene, similar dynamic to mountain resort towns. It's difficult to understand the dynamic unless one has lived in this type of environment for a while. Expensive with low local wages, which results in socioeconomic bifurcation with almost no middle class and a mix of uber rich vs. impoverished service workers struggling mightily. Lots of DINKs, few families, lots of vacation homes. There's often pressure for kids to excel at the local sports (skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, surfing, etc.), which means less of an emphasis on academics or any other aspect of life. In our former beach/tourist town this included a lot of social pressure to be "cool" by living the surfer/skater lifestyle. It just wasn't a good fit for us even though DW and I grew up there.

Bend, OR was on our short list relocation candidates, but after visiting it was a big nope. Very clearly another version of tourist/resort town. Been there, done that, not interested in that scene again. Especially for our kids. We ended up choosing Boise, in large part, because it's not a tourist destination. We have skiing and outdoor stuff, but it's not the "best" and for us this is a feature not a bug.

IMO, community is the most important thing. Go where your kids can make friends and be who they are. Great schools are an added benefit. Same with lower cost of living. Keep the mountain home as a rental, and a place where you can vacation. But day to day, it's so much better to have neighbors that you enjoy being around and who actually have time to be present.

Jeez, you’ve really stated clearly what bugs me about Asheville. It’s absofucking beautiful here but I just want to live somewhere “normal”. I three quarters  wish we had just kept WNC as our vacation destination.

[lhamo]

@waltworks, care to elaborate on what is hindering you in making a decision about this?

Also, have you considered moving someplace other than your home area?  Plenty of access to outdoor pursuits in the Seattle and Portland areas.  Housing isn't cheap in Seattle, but the schools are good and lots of smart kids around.  If your kids need a real challenge you could look at the early entrance programs at the UW -- our son did the Transition School/EEP and it worked out well for him (now doing a PhD in Computer Science at Berkeley).  Daughter did Running Start + some AP classes at one of the less rigorous high schools in Seattle but still had plenty of geeky friends and managed to get into pre-engineering at the UW.  Our winters are dark and grey, but you can still bike and hike if you don't mind the damp.  Lots of ski areas within a 1-2 hour drive. If you want to be closer to the mountains you could look at places like Issaquah (schools there very good) or the Snoqualmie Valley or Snohomish (not sure).

You'd probably easily sell a ton of bikes here if the HCOL is a concern.

[FINate]

I would move. Not for the schools, but for the culture. We started out in a touristy resort town, surf and skate scene, similar dynamic to mountain resort towns. It's difficult to understand the dynamic unless one has lived in this type of environment for a while. Expensive with low local wages, which results in socioeconomic bifurcation with almost no middle class and a mix of uber rich vs. impoverished service workers struggling mightily. Lots of DINKs, few families, lots of vacation homes. There's often pressure for kids to excel at the local sports (skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, surfing, etc.), which means less of an emphasis on academics or any other aspect of life. In our former beach/tourist town this included a lot of social pressure to be "cool" by living the surfer/skater lifestyle. It just wasn't a good fit for us even though DW and I grew up there.

Bend, OR was on our short list relocation candidates, but after visiting it was a big nope. Very clearly another version of tourist/resort town. Been there, done that, not interested in that scene again. Especially for our kids. We ended up choosing Boise, in large part, because it's not a tourist destination. We have skiing and outdoor stuff, but it's not the "best" and for us this is a feature not a bug.

IMO, community is the most important thing. Go where your kids can make friends and be who they are. Great schools are an added benefit. Same with lower cost of living. Keep the mountain home as a rental, and a place where you can vacation. But day to day, it's so much better to have neighbors that you enjoy being around and who actually have time to be present.

Jeez, you’ve really stated clearly what bugs me about Asheville. It’s absofucking beautiful here but I just want to live somewhere “normal”. I three quarters  wish we had just kept WNC as our vacation destination.

Touristy places are popular for good reasons, so I get why people want to live there. It took us a good 10 years to finally pull the trigger on moving to a "normal" city. For us, we realized we were chasing a feeling, a view, an idea, that wasn't realistic or sustainable. Somewhat analogous to the hedonic treadmill. The view, however beautiful, fades into the background after a year or two.

What I never tire of, and truly desire, is beautiful community. I will never get bored of things like walking across the alleyway to my neighbor's house with a bottle of prosecco to play card games on their porch. And having friends over for dinner. Or my kids wandering on their own with all their neighborhood friends. This past holiday weekend half the city emptied out into McCall (our local resort destination), so the city was super mellow. We rode bikes to a food truck park near the river for dinner and live music with friends. I went mountain biking with a friend. The kids walked to their friends' houses, and then those friends came to our house. We had friends over for BBQ and yard games. We biked to church, then biked to downtown for lunch. Later we left the kids at home and biked to meet friends for afternoon cocktails in the neighborhood. We had an amazing weekend with zero driving. Of course, we still enjoy going other places, and I love me some stunning mountain views (the "mountains" here in Boise are not very impressive), but these are places I'd much rather visit.

[Louise]

Are you sure your kids will be better off socially at the school where you would be moving? They way you are describing the smart kids sounds very cliche. I live in a major city and the smart, honors kids at my child's school aren't "geeky" at all. They are generally very sporty and involved in leadership roles in their extra-curriculars. I don't know of anyone heavily involved in D&D, board games, chess, etc. There is a robotics and chess club, but these aren't where the top students are hanging out. They all seem to be a little more well-rounded.

I just want to mention this because you may move and your kids may be in the same position socially.

Also, on a personal note, I was a very shy kid. I didn't have a lot of friends growing up, but I made some friends in college and as an adult. Moving wouldn't have made a difference socially for me.

[Knapptyme]

Well, we have a 6th/3rd/4 year-old set of kids and decided it was best to leave Ecuador for Spain for similar reasons. We wanted a more rigorous school environment, higher quality peers and opportunities, and a more developed country in general. This is all happening this summer. We figured if we waited any longer, friendships would solidify further and make moving even more difficult on the oldest.

Note: Spanish immersion was also paramount.

I say go for it--wherever it might be.

[waltworks]

Where did I say kids weren't well rounded because they like D&D?

In the town in question, if you point randomly at an adult, there's a 50% chance they have a PhD. We are not talking about a normal big city smart kid population at all.

-W

[Louise]

Where did I say kids weren't well rounded because they like D&D?

In the town in question, if you point randomly at an adult, there's a 50% chance they have a PhD. We are not talking about a normal big city smart kid population at all.

-W

You didn't. I just took your nose buried in a D&D manual and ran with it. At my kid's school, "jocks" are also involved in other things, as well as being AP students. That's all I'm getting at, but it sounds like you know the environment already. I'm surprised when I see my daughter's peers. They just seem a lot more well rounded. Back when I was in school there were more defined cliques (jocks, theater kids, geeks, cheerleaders, etc.). I'm happy to see that kids today are moving away from those divisions and getting involved in a variety of things. The cliques seem so limiting! My smart daughter is really into makeup/fashion designing and skiing right now, but that doesn't mean she won't fit in with the kids in the robotics club (which she plans on joining next year). Back in the day, she probably would have had to conform to some geeky ideal to be accepted by her peers. I'm glad that is changing. That was kind of my tangent. It sounds like there would be more options for your kids in the new place.

I would move in a heartbeat if my kid was unhappy.

[FINate]

Where did I say kids weren't well rounded because they like D&D?

In the town in question, if you point randomly at an adult, there's a 50% chance they have a PhD. We are not talking about a normal big city smart kid population at all.

-W

You didn't. I just took your nose buried in a D&D manual and ran with it. At my kid's school, "jocks" are also involved in other things, as well as being AP students. That's all I'm getting at, but it sounds like you know the environment already. I'm surprised when I see my daughter's peers. They just seem a lot more well rounded. Back when I was in school there were more defined cliques (jocks, theater kids, geeks, cheerleaders, etc.). I'm happy to see that kids today are moving away from those divisions and getting involved in a variety of things. The cliques seem so limiting! My smart daughter is really into makeup/fashion designing and skiing right now, but that doesn't mean she won't fit in with the kids in the robotics club (which she plans on joining next year). Back in the day, she probably would have had to conform to some geeky ideal to be accepted by her peers. I'm glad that is changing. That was kind of my tangent. It sounds like there would be more options for your kids in the new place.

I would move in a heartbeat if my kid was unhappy.

The cliques you describe were more defined in our previous beach town, whereas here in Boise (city proper near downtown, no idea about the burbs) the kids seem way more well rounded. I think there's a lot of regional variation. And maybe that's the point, and the reason walt is contemplating a move.

[Louise]

The cliques you describe were more defined in our previous beach town, whereas here in Boise (city proper near downtown, no idea about the burbs) the kids seem way more well rounded. I think there's a lot of regional variation. And maybe that's the point, and the reason walt is contemplating a move.

You're probably right. I grew up in a small town and high school was similar to the typical 80s movie, lol.

[Finances_With_Purpose]

You all have ruined my mountain resort town FI/best-life dream...

Thanks and no thanks.  (Ha!) 

Seriously: that's helpful perspective.  We weren't seriously considering it, but now I won't even get a bit wistful thinking about it, in light of our kids.  That's one of the largest concerns we would have had with a leap like that anyway. 

[waltworks]

You all have ruined my mountain resort town FI/best-life dream...

Thanks and no thanks.  (Ha!) 

Seriously: that's helpful perspective.  We weren't seriously considering it, but now I won't even get a bit wistful thinking about it, in light of our kids.  That's one of the largest concerns we would have had with a leap like that anyway.

It would be great without kids. With kids, I'm not sure there's a mountain town that I can recommend, and I've spent significant time in most of them at this point.

-W

[Dancin'Dog]

We lived in an NC college mountain town, Boone, which has ski slopes nearby.  It was good for us.  Good schools, plenty of high achieving students, since many had professors for parents.  There’s just one high school in the county, which is actually a good thing, because there’s not a good vs bad school scenario.  It’s also a blue county.


Being on the East Coast we weren’t as isolated as I think most of the Western ski areas probably are.  We were two hours from an international airport and a 5 hour drive to a beach. 

[startingsmall]

We lived in an NC college mountain town, Boone, which has ski slopes nearby.  It was good for us.  Good schools, plenty of high achieving students, since many had professors for parents.  There’s just one high school in the county, which is actually a good thing, because there’s not a good vs bad school scenario.  It’s also a blue county.


Being on the East Coast we weren’t as isolated as I think most of the Western ski areas probably are.  We were two hours from an international airport and a 5 hour drive to a beach.

I've often wondered what it would be like to live in Boone with a family. We spent a fair bit of time on daytrips to that area while living in NC (we were in Hickory and then closer to Charlotte) and loved it. We're currently looking at Greensboro, but I'll keep Boone in mind!

[waltworks]

I'll clarify - there are probably some fine mountain towns out there (which would include the one we're potentially moving to).

There are not, in my experience, good *resort* towns for kids. At least not smart ones.

-W

[roomtempmayo]

@waltworks Are you familiar with Raj Chetty's work on the relationship between geography and opportunity?  Fascinating stuff: https://opportunityinsights.org

If Chetty is right, putting your kids in an environment with good role models and peers is Parenting Job #4 or 5. 

[waltworks]

My understanding is that Chetty's work is focused on how social networks can pull people out of poverty. To be clear, I'm not concerned about my kids making *money* particularly. I'm interested in them achieving interesting things that they want to achieve. If they don't make much money doing that it's ok, the family has plenty of money and nobody is going to starve.

-W

[roomtempmayo]

My understanding is that Chetty's work is focused on how social networks can pull people out of poverty. To be clear, I'm not concerned about my kids making *money* particularly. I'm interested in them achieving interesting things that they want to achieve. If they don't make much money doing that it's ok, the family has plenty of money and nobody is going to starve.

-W

His early work was largely about rising out of poverty, but some of his more recent work has considered how kids end up on different life paths.

For example, one of his papers examines how and why kids who become inventors and file for patents tend to cluster in specific neighborhoods: https://www.nber.org/papers/w24062

From the abstract:

Children who grow up in a neighborhood or family with a high innovation rate in a specific technology class are more likely to patent in exactly the same class. Girls are more likely to invent in a particular class if they grow up in an area with more women (but not men) who invent in that class. These gender- and technology class-specific exposure effects are more likely to be driven by narrow mechanisms such as role model or network effects than factors that only affect general human capital accumulation, such as the quality of schools.

If pursuing a career that involves invention is not only an economic good but a matter of self-fulfillment, then role models and networks really matter for kids growing into their best selves, especially for people who have daughters.

[Finances_With_Purpose]

Well, @waltworks, it'll be the ocean for me, then.  I always joke that if things get too stressful, I'm taking my business, "BUSINESS," and creating "Ocean BUSINESS" over by the ocean.  Sometimes we kid about it. 

I don't like the cold that much anyway. 

Fascinating information, @caleb!  Especially the bit about innovation. 

[Sibley]

So our kids are pretty bored in their classes and our oldest has zero friends - because there are no other nerdy/smart kids to hang out with, really, and he's not enough of a social butterfly to, say, go befriend some jocks.

<snip>

The problem is that we already moved the kids once (from another ski town) because of similar school issues. We'd be moving them again, and starting everything over again.

I'm also a 'no'. You already did a similar move which didn't work out, so to be blunt you don't have a great track record of picking school districts at this point.

And it doesn't sound like you have done much to help your kids find friends outside of school? My three siblings and I were all the 'smart kids' in our very mediocre public school but we all had at least a few good friends in school as well as interests and friendships out of school that were very important to keeping us happy and healthy.

Even if a kid is 'smart and nerdy' that doesn't mean all their friends need to be as well. Aren't there any groups or clubs outside of school, whether outdoors-related or otherwise? Something like Scouts (know that not everyone is a fan) or since you're in a rural area, 4-H? (Not sure what 4-H is like in CO, but in the Midwest it can offer a lot to kids and certainly did to me.)

To be fair though, sounds like OP was picking areas based on what the adults liked not what the kids needed. Which is harsh, but they moved from one ski town to another ski town. And let's be honest: ski towns are going to share certain traits. This was foreseeable.

Pick a place based on what kind of environment will be best for the kids first, then what the parents want and they'll probably have better luck.

[waltworks]

The initial pick was actually based on 2010 (this was back in 2012) census data that included educational outcomes/achievement, health/obesity/etc. Skiing was not part of the equation at the time.

As I explained, the school district/board were taken over by sociopaths. If that had not happened, we'd still be there.

-W

[mahalomusicmag]

Have you ever read the book 5 levels of gifted? It really helped me out with deciding what to do with schooling. But no matter what you end up doing, you end up second guessing yourself as a parent anyways. We all just do our best. Our son was a level 3 gifted, and we did end up moving cities to the highest rated school district in our area. He's now 13. Public school is pretty tough, there's a lot of rough teenage stuff going on, bullying, everyone losing social skills because of covid, etc. I'm happy we made our move when we did (kindergarden), and I think our son has solid friendships from being here so long. But to move to this good school district we had to half size our house, since the cost per square foot doubled from where we left. It was still worth it to us, but more because we actually love our new neighbors.

[waltworks]

I have not read that book, but thanks for the recommendation.

My DS and DD are not geniuses. But they are the only/almost only bright kids (moreso DS) in their cohorts here. DS in particular only gets along with smart/nerdy kids so he's left adrift.

I am less concerned with academic achievement in isolation than operating with a good/achievement oriented peer group.

-W

[jeninco]

I have not read that book, but thanks for the recommendation.

My DS and DD are not geniuses. But they are the only/almost only bright kids (moreso DS) in their cohorts here. DS in particular only gets along with smart/nerdy kids so he's left adrift.

I am less concerned with academic achievement in isolation than operating with a good/achievement oriented peer group.

-W

I think this is an important perspective -- perhaps even more so for your DD, because if it's important for your daughter to grow into a confident, thinking person, she needs to have friends and a cohort that values that (rather than mocking it).

[Just Joe]

Anyways @waltworks, I feel you.  I'm in a similar spot, though my kids are a lot younger than yours.  I really like the recreational opportunities, but I'm not 100% sure I want to raise my kids here.  We found a pretty decent neighborhood where there are more families than the average area, but it feels so...fragile.

We did the majority of our child-rearing on a neighborhood house in an early 1990s subdivision that we loved. It fit our budget. But, almost no kids in that neighborhood. Mostly empty nesters, one helicopter family who would barely let their kids out of the house that we knew, and a couple of other families whose kids were ??? We knew kids lived there at least part time, seldom saw them.

A half-mile up the road was a newer neighborhood and every house seemed to have kids. Most of those houses were of a certain style and all built just before we moved into the older neighborhood. All the parents seemed to be educated professionals like us and either had more money or perhaps more debt. Parents who had their kids in all the activities. When our kids wanted to trick-or-treat that's where we went b/c the neighborhood would be swarming with kids in costumes.

I often wondered if things might have been if we would have moved into that neighborhood. Would have certainly put a huge pinch in our budget b/c this was pre-MMM for us.

Lots of ways we could have handled this besides buying a house there. We have friends in that neighborhood and have attended BBQs there. All these kids attend the same school. We just didn't have the shiny newer house, shiny new cars, or their mortgages and car payments.

[lhamo]

@waltworks, any decision on whether you are staying or going?

FWIW we made the decision to put our house on the market now rather than wait until spring -- we are downsizing and decided it was best to unload it while inventory is still low and there was lots of demand.  Found a rental, moved, got it fixed/cleaned up and staged and had an above-list cash offer in hand all in less than 3 weeks.  I am exhausted (was averaging over 20k steps/day during the peak of the move/listing prep process) but also relieved. 

[waltworks]

Due to a complete and total shitstorm here (tenants moved out of our rental in our old town and the market there is so dead that even at 20% lower rent we haven't found another, DW's mental health is very bad, etc) we are still in our current shitty-school town.

We may be forced to move back to our original location since we can't seem to rent the house and we also, according to our realtor, probably can't really sell it right now.

Ugh.

-W

[waltworks]

A quick update - we're still stuck in ski town, but have made offers on some houses in smartie-ville. Unfortunately our ski town housing market is terrible (for sellers) and the opposite is the case for smartie-ville. So we've been unable to compete for houses due to the craziness of the market.

In the meantime the current school district's only idea for our kids is to have them start skipping grades in order to be around kids who are closer to functioning at their level so we have to figure out whether to do that or not. It's disruptive and annoying, and they'd probably need to go back to their original grade in the new school system anyway. But if they stay in their current grades they're effectively falling behind their peers in the new school system just because this one is so bad.

Anyway, I'm fighting being depressed about the situation at this point. I despise where we live but we seem to be stuck at least for the time being.

-W

[Laura33]

So sorry to hear that.  Do you have any other options, like renting your current place?  Seems like a ski town may have a decent short-term rental market, particularly over the coming few months. 

[Just_Me]

A quick update - we're still stuck in ski town, but have made offers on some houses in smartie-ville. Unfortunately our ski town housing market is terrible (for sellers) and the opposite is the case for smartie-ville. So we've been unable to compete for houses due to the craziness of the market.

In the meantime the current school district's only idea for our kids is to have them start skipping grades in order to be around kids who are closer to functioning at their level so we have to figure out whether to do that or not. It's disruptive and annoying, and they'd probably need to go back to their original grade in the new school system anyway. But if they stay in their current grades they're effectively falling behind their peers in the new school system just because this one is so bad.

Anyway, I'm fighting being depressed about the situation at this point. I despise where we live but we seem to be stuck at least for the time being.

-W

Sorry to hear the woes continue.

You've shown that it's impossible to immediately change your circumstances given your limitations and priorities. You now have the chance to either reevaluate those priorities or start identifying new options while you ameliorate your current life with the accomodations the school district can offer.

What are some other solutions? Virtual school? Selling below market value? What are you willing to trade to change your environment now that it's become hard? I can't remember if you are FI, but will you work to eat a big loss on real estate

Our DD is on grade acceleration and the only complication is that due to her young age she doesn't click as well with the students. She gets along better with the kids her age. She's still at or above benchmark for all academic subjects but is happy.

[reeshau]

Our DD is on grade acceleration and the only complication is that due to her young age she doesn't click as well with the students. She gets along better with the kids her age. She's still at or above benchmark for all academic subjects but is happy.

This worry has kept us from seriously considering grade acceleration.  DS has a big noggin, but then we see some behavior, and we look at each other and say, "....aaaaaaand....he's eight."

Walt, is there any chance for tutoring for your kids in town?  If not from some organized place, then maybe from a teacher after hours?  I would imagine a bright student might as much make a teacher's day, as the other way around--if they had some way to carve out an appropriate amount of time, and get the right materials to engage them.  Even though our public schools are some of the best around, it's not uncommon for GT students to take after school tutoring, not to catch up but to work ahead on their best subject without affecting their whole school experience.  It might also be an appropriate holding action until the move makes sense.

I also thought about the other way around.  You said there weren't other needs, but your kids probably know who else is designated GT.  Would you have any interest in starting a peer tutoring program in school?  Being the need is hard, but helping other students out could be a good position from which to start some friendships.

[Michael in ABQ]

Have you considered homeschool? You might find that there are some local homeschool groups or co-ops that may have kids that your children would connect with. Worst case scenario is you can at least challenge them academically for the rest of the year until you can move. If they don't really have friends at school now then they probably won't miss that as much.

[waltworks]

Have you considered homeschool? You might find that there are some local homeschool groups or co-ops that may have kids that your children would connect with. Worst case scenario is you can at least challenge them academically for the rest of the year until you can move. If they don't really have friends at school now then they probably won't miss that as much.

Homeschooling is 100% out of the question, none of the kids do well with us as teachers or with remote/device learning. It sounds great in theory but when we have attempted it is has been a disaster.

Our main concern is having them around a cohort of other 2+ standard deviation above average kids, really. Homeschooling in our area won't provide that any better than public school.

But man I wish we could pull it off. The schedule flexibility would be awesome. I don't love getting up at 6am to get the middle schooler out the door.

-W

[waltworks]

Our DD is on grade acceleration and the only complication is that due to her young age she doesn't click as well with the students. She gets along better with the kids her age. She's still at or above benchmark for all academic subjects but is happy.

This worry has kept us from seriously considering grade acceleration.  DS has a big noggin, but then we see some behavior, and we look at each other and say, "....aaaaaaand....he's eight."

Walt, is there any chance for tutoring for your kids in town?  If not from some organized place, then maybe from a teacher after hours?  I would imagine a bright student might as much make a teacher's day, as the other way around--if they had some way to carve out an appropriate amount of time, and get the right materials to engage them.  Even though our public schools are some of the best around, it's not uncommon for GT students to take after school tutoring, not to catch up but to work ahead on their best subject without affecting their whole school experience.  It might also be an appropriate holding action until the move makes sense.

I also thought about the other way around.  You said there weren't other needs, but your kids probably know who else is designated GT.  Would you have any interest in starting a peer tutoring program in school?  Being the need is hard, but helping other students out could be a good position from which to start some friendships.

It would be an interesting idea to hire someone to do some tutoring. But then they'd also be even more bored in their normal classes during the day, which seems counterproductive.

The older one (6th) we will probably just accelerate, he has no friends in his current cohort anyway.

The younger (4th) is a trickier question as she does have friends in her grade. I substitute taught her class for a couple days to see how it was going (this is my usual procedure, I've done it with our older kids classes too) and most of the kids seem to think she's some kind of alien. She spends a lot of her time in the hallway doing her own work. Not great.

If you're curious, there's a resource I stumbled on about grade acceleration that we found helpful:
https://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/ND_v2.pdf

Ignore the bizarre title, it's worth a read.

-W

[waltworks]

So sorry to hear that.  Do you have any other options, like renting your current place?  Seems like a ski town may have a decent short-term rental market, particularly over the coming few months.

We have rented our place (in ski town 1, we live in a rental in ski town 2) but until we have that income on our taxes next year, we can't get a mortgage based on that income, so in hindsight perhaps we should have just sold it. I had forgotten about that rule.

Short term rentals are illegal in our neighborhood regardless.

So we have pretty limited ability to get mortgages right now due to neither of us working much which has complicated things a lot. My wife won't be happy in another rental, so we basically need to buy a place to really make it work.

-W

[Freedomin5]

What about combining the two ideas and hiring someone (like a retired teacher) to homeschool your kids?

[Villanelle]

Is it more about the social connections with like-minded "2 standard deviation" kids, or is it more about wanting challenging school work?  If you could increase the intellectual challenge but the social situations (them not having friends and peers with whom they really connect) would stay more or less the same, would that mostly scratch the itch? I can't tell if you mostly want your kids to be around those kids because you think they will flourish more on a social level if they are with smart, motivated peers, or if you want their education to be at the level of super smart kids.  There may be some possibilities, but it depends on what is the primary thing you are trying to accomplish. 

[waltworks]

We want them around other smart kids. The older one has shown he will not make friends with any other kind of kid. The younger one seems to be heading down the same path.

The academic side of things is somewhat less important, but we do also care about that.

-W

[lhamo]

So sorry to hear that.  Do you have any other options, like renting your current place?  Seems like a ski town may have a decent short-term rental market, particularly over the coming few months.

We have rented our place (in ski town 1, we live in a rental in ski town 2) but until we have that income on our taxes next year, we can't get a mortgage based on that income, so in hindsight perhaps we should have just sold it. I had forgotten about that rule.

Short term rentals are illegal in our neighborhood regardless.

So we have pretty limited ability to get mortgages right now due to neither of us working much which has complicated things a lot. My wife won't be happy in another rental, so we basically need to buy a place to really make it work.

-W

Seriously?  She wouldn't be willing to rent in your desired town for 6-12 months in order for you to get your kids into a schooling situation that works for them?

We made a snap decision to sell our house this past summer and moved into a rental.  It's not perfect, but it is working.  If my kids' mental health/well being were on the line I would be more than happy to put up with the limitations of a rental for a bit.

[Villanelle]

We want them around other smart kids. The older one has shown he will not make friends with any other kind of kid. The younger one seems to be heading down the same path.

The academic side of things is somewhat less important, but we do also care about that.

-W

I'd strongly suggest that you perhaps work with them (or give them books and research if they prefer that) on making friends, dealing with people not like them, etc.  Their world as they grow up will not me insular.  Teaching them to find the good and interesting bits of people seemingly unlike them is a gift.  These don't have to be their forever BFFs. 

As an adult who has moved a lot, I've been grateful to form friendships with people not only vastly different from me, but even those who I know will be friends for a season, rather than a lifetime.  They aren't the deepest friendships (for either of us), but they are valuable (to both of us). 

This is not a definitive solution but seems like it would be deeply valuable anyway.

Also, it surprises me that your wife isn't willing to rent to address a problem that seems to be very deeply affecting everyone's mental health (including her).  Or that you aren't willing to sell for a loss and buy at a premium (or a house with deep compromises).  This seems like a situation one wold want to throw money at. 

[Dancin'Dog]

We want them around other smart kids. The older one has shown he will not make friends with any other kind of kid. The younger one seems to be heading down the same path.

The academic side of things is somewhat less important, but we do also care about that.

-W

I'd strongly suggest that you perhaps work with them (or give them books and research if they prefer that) on making friends, dealing with people not like them, etc.  Their world as they grow up will not me insular.  Teaching them to find the good and interesting bits of people seemingly unlike them is a gift.  These don't have to be their forever BFFs. 

As an adult who has moved a lot, I've been grateful to form friendships with people not only vastly different from me, but even those who I know will be friends for a season, rather than a lifetime.  They aren't the deepest friendships (for either of us), but they are valuable (to both of us). 

This is not a definitive solution but seems like it would be deeply valuable anyway.

Also, it surprises me that your wife isn't willing to rent to address a problem that seems to be very deeply affecting everyone's mental health (including her).  Or that you aren't willing to sell for a loss and buy at a premium (or a house with deep compromises).  This seems like a situation one wold want to throw money at.

I agree. 


I'm curious whether you and Mrs. Walt have many friends.  I'd assume you do, and if so, don't they have children that yours would enjoy playing with?  Getting together with other families seems like a good way for parents to demonstrate how to be friends with a variety of people, regardless of their individual interests.  Have you tried encouraging friendships at the family level?  That might help fill the social gaps they have at school somewhat. 

[waltworks]

In our current environment, I have zero friends. Mrs. Walt has a few through school. I appreciate the ideas, however. We have spent a lot of time trying to make family-level friends through soccer, basketball, skiing, mountain biking, school, etc. None of that has really worked out, I think we're too nerdy and weird.

Agreed that we should be throwing money at this (we are nominally FI, though we both still work to varying degrees), and that we should be ok with renting. The reality is, however, that our current rental has worked out so badly (this is our first time ever renting a home) that we're hesitant to go down that road again. Finding a rental large enough for our family is also a challenge. Nevertheless I am pushing to GTFO at the holiday break. Mrs. Walt has committed to a variety of things at school (mathematics lead teacher, robotics coach, etc) that she would feel bad about dropping so that's probably the biggest hangup at this point.

I think we've decided that ski towns are not a fit for us, so IMO we need to cut bait and leave ASAP. Inertia is a bitch, though.

-W