Violent bullying - of a toddler

[SisterX]

I need some advice about how to approach the parents of some kids on our street. There are a bunch of kids on our street who are a few years older than mine (she's not quite 3). For a long time they were happy to have her join their games, and then something changed. The oldest of the bunch (1st grader) has begun a campaign of downright cruelty toward my toddler. She'll steal my kid's toys (off the front porch) and hide them, then blame other kids when I gently try to question. She's super manipulative. As just one instance, my kid went out with a piece of raisin toast the other day, mostly eaten. She came back a few minutes later asking for a cookie. I said we didn't have any, and looked outside. The 1st grader was there, and I realized she told my kid to ask for a cookie so that she could take it. When I said we didn't have any cookies she told me, "Yeah huh! She just had one!" This kind of stuff is pretty regular from her, to the point that the dad next door mentioned once that she was really manipulative with his kids too. The thing is, those parents are all friends, so I'm not sure he's said anything to the 1st grader's parents about this behavior.
So on top of the manipulation and emotional cruelty that the one kid has been doling out, her younger brother has taken this as carte blanche to be violent with my kid. She's come home crying because he threw a rock at her (there was a small bruise on her face from it), he pushed her down, etc. Just this afternoon my husband saw him run her over on her bicycle while he was driving around in one of those mini battery-powered cars. Like, the kid swerved to hit her. We've tried talking to the kids themselves (my husband did not let that kid get away thinking he could just run over our kid with impunity) but that's clearly not enough. My question is, how to approach the parents? They've got more than just the two kids, including a new-ish baby, so I think they just don't know. But I'm already a little uncomfortable around the mom. She's the type to drive her oldest kids to friends that live two blocks away, you know? We have nothing in common, but all of the other parents are pretty tight and sociable. I don't want to give the impression that I'm stirring up trouble.
Halp. I don't know how to approach this.
We're trying to give our kiddo more freedom to go outside and play on her own. We live on a quiet culdesac and she's proven herself quite safe around the few cars that come around, so I'm not worried about her safety that way. It's hard, however, when pretty much every day she comes inside with some new tale of how the big kids were mean to her, or we actually see them doing these things. I know that she's going to have to deal with meanness and such at various times in her life, but this is over-the-top, unacceptable behavior from the older kids. In many ways it's downright sociopathic, and it needs to end. Worse, we've noticed a degradation in our kid's behavior since she's been dealing with this. At the very least, I don't want our kid picking up these attitudes and thinking that it's an acceptable way to behave. But I don't want to start some ridiculous feud on our street, either....

[TOgirl]

If my child was a toddler, almost 3 yrs old, I'd be outside with them. Especially if there are reasons to think the child may not be safe. If something happens to her and she is hurt, the first question will not be "where is that first grade troublemaker"...it will be and always is "where were the parents?"

If there is an ongoing bullying situation occurring, you need to be present - if the older kids only pick on your toddler, it's likely because she's an easy target. You need to observe and verbally correct their behaviour, and provide your toddler the tools to deal with it as well. Additionally, maybe the other kids on the street are just too much older to enjoy playing with a toddler who comes outside on their own and wants someone to play with?

Once you start being outside every time with the toddler, and continually observe the older kids attempting to bully, then talk to the parents. I find kids act much differently when they know an adult is watching, so even just being present may be enough to lessen the negative interactions.

I have a 6.5yr old and a 5yr old, and even now I don't let them roam the street on their own. Backyard? Sure. Front yard? Ok, but only where I can see them. They want to ride bikes down the street, or go to the park around the corner? Hubby or I are going with them.

There are ways to foster and increase independence, but maybe this shouldn't be one of them for right now.

Hope things work out.

[human]

Unfortunately theft is why a lot of people don't keep things outside for anyone to take so that seems like an easy fix. Not sure why a three year old is hanging out with a seven year old. Maybe the older kid doesn't want a baby hanging around and is acting out? When i was a kid and i was asked to play with younger kids it was de facto babysitting so why are you expecting a seven year old to babysit your toddler?

[KCM5]

Maybe there's something going on with those kids, but I don't know that I'd talk to the parents first. I'd start by supervising my child's interaction with them. She's young and doesn't yet have the tools to deal with bullying - and why would she and she shouldn't have to. I can tell that the atmosphere on your street must be great for kids, but I think the way to deal with this right now is to supervise her closely when she's outside. If the neighbor kids can't stop themselves from being little bullies when they know you're watching, say something to the parents.

[swick]

SisterX, sorry you are dealing with this.

I'm going to share an unpopular alternative view but it should be something to consider. I hate using labels, but for lack of a better term and proper diagnosis, sociopathic behaviors can be present in young children. If so, your child is AT RISK.

The situations you describe, especially the manipulation and thought process required of trying to convince your child to get a cookie from you, the bullying, (you don't state it, but where did her brother get the idea to be violent with your child?) all hint at the possibility.

I have worked with a child before at that age, ( worked with her from pre-school to grade 2) that simply displayed no conscious or regard for others, zero empathy, knew how to work all the adults in the room, would "prey" on weaker kids, especially those with stronger empathy and who were more sensitive. Who could cry at the drop of a hat and as soon as you turned away would be smiling to whoever they just got in trouble.  Giving kids bruises and pulling hair and harming others in a very methodical way that can be explained away by just playing and being kids. Scary stuff.

I hope, hope, hope your situation isn't that bad, but there are children out there who you can't just chalk their behaviour up to "being kids"

The best thing you can do is be out there with your child, as well as giving them coping tools, teaching them what kind of behaviour in play is acceptable and making sure they are not scared to come to you for any reason. Also, document everything. You need to keep records of interactions so you can point to a pattern of behaviour (if you confront the parents or not) because it is easy to miss. You might also want to consider using your phone to capture any interactions you see.

I don't want to scare you or go overboard, but your post raised a bunch of red flags given my past experience.

[Fishindude]

Simple solution.  Keep your kid away from those brats.
Don't over-think this thing, it's just bratty kids being bratty kids.  We all grew up around some of those types and survived.

[GuitarStv]

Some kids are assholes.  It might be because of stuff that happens at home, it might be because of a neurochemical brain thing, it might be because they're just mean.  It doesn't matter.  You've identified a problem, now you need to pay attention to your kid to protect her until she's old/strong enough to protect herself.

Getting used to dealing with assholes is an essential life skill, but a 3 year old is too young to do it on her own.

[little_brown_dog]

+1 to supervision. The beauty of supervision is that it also creates a situation where it is easier to bring things up to the parents if need be. You want to be armed with “hey I was watching the kids and noticed so and so hitting” as opposed to “My kid said someone threw something at them and I believe them.”

Also, try to limit your child’s exposure to these kids in a very natural way (aka: don’t ban them from interacting, but find opportunities for your kid to naturally have as little exposure as possible for the time being). At 3-4yrs old, kids are learning social skills and you don’t want your little one’s new social experience to be dominated by negative behaviors from a couple kids who are acting out. When the kids are together, be present and watchful. Try to foster stronger connections with some of the other less aggressive children (perhaps the kid(s) of the other parent who also noticed the strange behavior).

If you really feel like you want to say something to the parents, I would phrase it as "Sally loves hanging out and tagging along with your kids, but I notice because she is younger that sometimes the older kids can get frustrated and start hitting/throwing things etc. Is it okay if I step in and redirect them when this happens?" This is a nice way of saying "I've noticed your kids can be aggressive jerks to younger children, and its not cool. You don't have to do anything but I am going to put a stop to it if I see it again."

[SisterX]

Maybe I should make something clear: my kid is never totally unsupervised when outside. If I'm inside, it's either for a couple of minutes (go to the bathroom, start a load of laundry) or I'm in a room where I can look outside. However, some of this behavior has happened when there are plenty of adults present. The rock throwing happened at a BBQ block party over Labor Day weekend. We just didn't happen to actually see him throw the rock. That same night, I heard the 7 year old telling a 6 year old, "I'll grab this arm, you grab that arm, and we'll pull!" Look over to see her with one of my kid's hands in hers. Her parents didn't notice, despite being only about five feet away, in conversation with other adults. (I stopped them before they could actually try to pull my kid apart.)
Also, much of the time my toddler isn't trying to play with them or tag along. Especially with the violent 4 yr old around, she tries to avoid him. And clearly, having adults present doesn't stop them because my husband was outside when the 4 yr old deliberately ran over my kiddo. He thinks the kid didn't realize he was watching, but merely having an adult outside didn't faze him. At the time, my kid was just riding her bike by herself, not trying to interact with him at all.
The other kids are plenty nice to mine when those two aren't around. Some of it might be that they feel they have no one better to play with, so they're willing to play with the younger kid, but a lot of it is also that they're not being manipulated, cajoled, and forced into being cruel to her. They're actually quite sweet when those two kids aren't around, even when there are quite a few of them and they have "better" kids to play with.
For her bigger toys (scooter, trike) we literally have nowhere else to put them other than the front porch. They've only been taken a couple of times, and that seems to have stopped since I told the 7 yr old that I knew she was taking them and it needed to stop. However, my kid will go to play on our lawn with a ball and they'll take it from her, then stick it high in a tree she can't climb yet. And yelling at her to jump out the window? WTF? They didn't care that my husband could hear them, they were doing that in front of him. Nothing we've said to these kids has had any affect because, if they see anyone as authority figures, it clearly isn't us.
I kind of get it. Their parents don't enforce boundaries. They'll say "five more minutes" about twelve times before actually enforcing it, stuff like that. So part of why we haven't spoken to the parents yet is that we haven't been entirely certain it would do any good, maybe just piss them off. On the other hand, if there's a clear pattern of bullying and manipulation in such a young kid, I feel it's something that should be drawn to the parents' attention. So my question wasn't, "Hey, free-for-all, can you judge my parenting?" it was, "How the hell do we approach the other parents?"

Swick, thanks. That's actually helpful to know. Sometimes it feels like it's all in my head, that a kid can't possibly be this manipulative and sociopathic.

[Milizard]

Time to find your inner momma bear.  The rock incident? You're damn right someone's going to hear about it.
 It's your job to protect your kid, not to necessarily keep the peace with the neighbors.  I'd just say, your kids are bullying my toddler, so please keep them away from her.  Please and thank you.  She's going to learn bad responses and aggression from these kids if this continues.  If little kids see there are no consequences for kids engaging in this kind of behavior against them, they're more likely to try it on other kids.

[Tyson]

When you talk to the parents, what action do you want them to take?  Be clear on this before you talk to them.  And also make sure to document the things you've seen as a way to show what's happening.  The other kids' parents sound like they might just be clueless.

[daverobev]

Reverse the situation. Imagine how you would act if someone told you that your child was bullying/throwing rocks.

Assume the parents are good people and don't want their children to be little shits. Talk to them. Say, hey, your X threw a rock at my much younger child. I am not happy about this. It is not acceptable to me; I feel my child is in danger.

You're right that parents don't notice. But that behaviour must be corrected, picked up on, etc.

If it isn't, if the parents don't care, I would move. It's that simple. I would not live in a place with shitty children. I've been there, done it, and hated it (and I'm an adult - this was 14, 15, 16 year old boys using the street for football - and hence the top and sides of my car would get smacked regularly).

It'd be shit if you had to move. It's not fair, etc, etc, but at the end of the day... you have to put your family first.

[BlueHouse]

I have zero experience in this area, but I do agree with others to put your child's safety first and screw it if you end up offending someone.  Any decent parent would want to know about it. 

The first thing that came to my mind though was are you sure the bad kids are safe in their own home?  I mean, where are they learning this behavior?  Why do they want to hurt someone smaller?  Is that a learned behavior?  If so, you may have to be very careful how you approach the parents because they will probably be uber-defensive. 

[rockstache]

I have zero experience in this area, but I do agree with others to put your child's safety first and screw it if you end up offending someone.  Any decent parent would want to know about it. 

The first thing that came to my mind though was are you sure the bad kids are safe in their own home?  I mean, where are they learning this behavior?  Why do they want to hurt someone smaller?  Is that a learned behavior?  If so, you may have to be very careful how you approach the parents because they will probably be uber-defensive.

"How the hell do we approach the other parents?"

+1

I think you have to recognize that there is almost zero possibility of this going well before going into it. There is only the slimmest chance that they are going to be grateful that you noticed their kid is a sociopath. If you feel that you have to say something, then of course do so as nicely and judge-free as possible (maybe like little brown dog said), but know that they will probably be defensive no matter how you phrase it, and it will probably have neighborhood repercussions if they are all as tight as you say.

I try (hard) to be open minded, and if a very close friend or relative brought up concerns like this to me, I would like to think that I would take their opinions into consideration and have my kid examined. But a casual acquaintance neighbor, if I was a stressed-out parent of a new baby? Maybe I wouldn't be as open as I hope.

[Tyson]

This is where video recordings on your phone are very helpful - just keep an eye out for the bullying and record it.  It's hard to defend against video proof.

[TrMama]

Time to find your inner momma bear.  The rock incident? You're damn right someone's going to hear about it.
 It's your job to protect your kid, not to necessarily keep the peace with the neighbors.  I'd just say, your kids are bullying my toddler, so please keep them away from her.  Please and thank you.  She's going to learn bad responses and aggression from these kids if this continues.  If little kids see there are no consequences for kids engaging in this kind of behavior against them, they're more likely to try it on other kids.

This x1000. You're putting your relationship with these people, who you barely even know, above your own child's safety. That's incredibly twisted. As your child's parent you are her last line of defense. If you won't stick up for her, then she is truly fucked.

How do you deal with it? You march over to their house and ring the bell. You tell them that their child is hurting your child and that you will not longer tolerate it. You cite examples of all the times this has happened. If their kid steps foot on your property again you will physically remove the kid and return him to his own house.

You tell your own child she is not to leave your property without you. If she wants to play outside, she can go in the fenced backyard. Otherwise, she's within arms reach of you at all times.

FTR I am that parent who has no compunction about putting a stop to bratty kids behaviour. I don't care if their parents are standing right next to me and aren't doing anything. No one is allowed to hurt my kids. As a result, the bratty kids rarely try any nonsense when I'm around. My kids also know that I've got their back and will keep them safe. This means they trust me and tell me everything.

[swick]

MOD NOTE: This is a hot topic that brings out everybody's "Momma/Papa bear instincts"  Please make sure your comments are constructive and not attacking or criticizing the OP. We strive to keep the forums:
 A -  a safe place to talk about hard stuff
B - A beacon of light on the interwebs. Please keep your tone in mind when responding.

[KCM5]

Time to find your inner momma bear.  The rock incident? You're damn right someone's going to hear about it.
 It's your job to protect your kid, not to necessarily keep the peace with the neighbors.  I'd just say, your kids are bullying my toddler, so please keep them away from her.  Please and thank you.  She's going to learn bad responses and aggression from these kids if this continues.  If little kids see there are no consequences for kids engaging in this kind of behavior against them, they're more likely to try it on other kids.

This x1000. You're putting your relationship with these people, who you barely even know, above your own child's safety. That's incredibly twisted. As your child's parent you are her last line of defense. If you won't stick up for her, then she is truly fucked.

How do you deal with it? You march over to their house and ring the bell. You tell them that their child is hurting your child and that you will not longer tolerate it. You cite examples of all the times this has happened. If their kid steps foot on your property again you will physically remove the kid and return him to his own house.

You tell your own child she is not to leave your property without you. If she wants to play outside, she can go in the fenced backyard. Otherwise, she's within arms reach of you at all times.

FTR I am that parent who has no compunction about putting a stop to bratty kids behaviour. I don't care if their parents are standing right next to me and aren't doing anything. No one is allowed to hurt my kids. As a result, the bratty kids rarely try any nonsense when I'm around. My kids also know that I've got their back and will keep them safe. This means they trust me and tell me everything.

That's going too far. Obviously she is trying to figure out the best way to protect her child around these other children.

The rest of the advice is good.

[charis]

If it were me, I would stop letting my children hang around these two children.  If they come over, bring your child inside or into the backyard and ask them to leave, repeatedly as necessary ("until you can play nicely together, you will have to leave).  It's terribly inconvenient to have to avoid your neighbors and their children, but sometimes it has to be done.   

You can also try talking to the parents if you think that would help, but they don't sound like they can monitor their kids much anyway.

[mm1970]

I wouldn't let them hang out. 
I would tell the parents (I would want to know if my kid were bullying).
I would install a camera.
Is your front yard not fenced?  Maybe fence it.

My son is 4.  He wasn't out of eyesight until about then, and even now, only in the fenced back yard.  (He's an escape artist though.)

And finally, I would discipline the other children. If I'd seen another boy run over my kid, I'd pick that kid up and take him immediately to his parents and tell them what happened.

[Miss Piggy]

And finally, I would discipline the other children. If I'd seen another boy run over my kid, I'd pick that kid up and take him immediately to his parents and tell them what happened.

I was thinking pretty much this same thing. I agree it needs to be immediate; otherwise, it becomes a he said/she said "laundry list" of complaints about past events.

[SisterX]

We are currently living with family, one of whom has Alzheimer's. We can't do anything to change the house. We are trying to move, desperately, and waiting on employment for my husband before we can.
We've never let the kids get away with this shit. As I've said, they do not see us as authority figures and ignore us.
Also, your style of parenting is not necessarily going to be mine. Just because you want to hover over your kids does not mean that I'm going to find it necessary. In fact, that would cause my girl to rebel. Yes, even at this age. We've all found that giving her as much freedom as possible is best all around.
We are trying to limit her time around these other kids, and she's limiting herself as well when she sees the two troublemakers outside. However, as I said, we live in a household where one family member has dementia. It's a difficult situation and, much of the time, getting out of the house is the answer. I'm not going to let a couple of bratty kids keep us locked up in the house of insanity with so. many. damn. rules. for my kid to follow.
We are talking with our toddler about the other kids' behavior, how it's not acceptable for people to behave that way. We've even told her that if they hit her she's perfectly allowed to hit back in this case. (She hasn't yet.) She's seen us scolding the other kids. She knows we have her back, and because we allow her so much freedom she knows that she has choices.
Any other veiled criticisms of my parenting forthcoming?
Thanks to all those with suggestions about how to talk to the other parents. I really shouldn't care what they think since we want to move, but as this is also where my parents live I'd rather not create hostilities on an otherwise pleasant street where, clearly, the neighbors actually know each other.

[Milizard]

The point of my post wasn't to criticise.  Sometimes, when you approach people with the appropriate level of pissed offedness, your concerns will be treated with much more deference.  Often, if you are too cautious in your approach, you'll just get blown off.

[human]

Do you not have a back yard or is there no fence? I really don't see approaching the other parents as something that will help. Keeping your kids away from them seems like the obvious solution. What I'm missing here? There must be a park you can take the kid for riding bikes or something?

I had quite a bit of freedom too but with that came independence. Older bullying kids were always a fact of life where I grew up, we avoided them when we could and when we didn't we got our asses kicked. Not sure a three year old can really manage this on her own.

Maybe I just come from a different social class or background, but in my neighborhood if you called out other parents it started a never ending feud. In fact the parents would just egg their kids on. These kids behave this way because of their parents (most likely).

[Bicycle_B]

OP, good luck with your situation.  Obviously not easy.  I sympathize with your expectation that the kids will be doing some growing up on their own, while you supervise gently.  You are obviously very thoughtful and that extends to the other parents too.

As a quiet person, I myself would feel like avoiding confrontation with the parents.  Yet talking with them sounds like it's needed.  If you do it, your kids will learn good lessons from that even if they're not present and even if it goes badly. (It might go well.  Maybe!)  Sooner or later they will know you stand up for them; that you stand up and that it's for them both help, even if the style of "standing up" is pretty quiet. 

I'm no expert on any of this, just pitching in as requested.  I've been told that a key part of "Crucial Conversations" is having them.  Anyway, more power to you!

[tthree]

Getting used to dealing with assholes is an essential life skill, but a 3 year old is too young to do it on her own.

Dealing with asshats is definitely a life skill.  I am not sure when is a reasonable age to learn to deal with them, but probably the earlier the better.  My son has had his fair share of asshat issues since starting school. Prior to school he had never been exposed to people/situations where his best interest was in mind, subsequently he is naive when it comes to interpersonal relationships and the intentions of others.  i.e. last year (Gr 1) he tells me at home he needs to take money to school tomorrow.  I told him I was pretty sure I had paid all the required upcoming fees online and there was nothing special occurring the following day that would require money.  He was adamant, so I ask WHY he needed the money.  Well he needed the money to pay his "friend" to play with him.  If my son didn't pay him he wasn't going to be friends with him anymore.  My son bought this hook, line and sinker.

Also in my experience, because bullying is such a big fucking deal these days schools are extremely hesitant to label anyone a bully because bullies are "bad".  Instead my son went to the principal's office just as many times as those targeting him, where he was coached to learn to change what he could control: his reaction to the situation.  i.e. don't engage, walk away, if they follow you ask them to stop, say no, seek assistance.  At first I was annoyed because this seems like a lot of for a six year to have to process, but than I realized he is learning some important life skills.

[Anatidae V]

Do you have a "calm, no bullshit" voice? That's what I would use when letting them know what the kids have been up to. Stick to facts and. Maybe there's a few other parents you could talk to as well, let them know "there's been some bullying and we'd like it if everyone kept a closer eye on the kids when they're playing" or something to that effect. Be specific with the parents of the bullies, and more vague with the other neighbourhood parents, and perhaps that will help?

[former player]

I'm glad you will be moving at some point: those bullying kids could be around for a long time and not change their behaviour.

I don't know whether this is relevant to your situation, but if the aim is for the house you are in to be sold at some point, you may get asked by the purchasers "have there been any disputes with the neighbours?"  To which you want to answer "no", if possible.   This could be important, but obviously not as important as your child being safe.

As to the neighbour kids themselves, I might have put the elder's problems down to starting school (you say she is a first grader), but with the violent younger one as well it looks like a more generalised family problem.  That family problem will not be solved as long as the parents are oblivious/ineffectual/complicit.  So there needs to be some sort of intervention.  I agree with others that you alone are unlikely to change the parents, even if they acknowledge a need for change and have the personal resources to do so, both of which are unlikely.  It is just possible that a neighbourhood intervention might work: you have already said that your next door neighbour recognises the problem, so perhaps a group approach might work.  Another option is to report the family to social services (you should be able to do this anonymously).  A final possibility would be to get the first grader's school involved, but it would probably need the concerned parent of another child at the same school to do this.  Personally, of all of these I would favour the report to social services.  It might seem a bit extreme, but without it this problem could go on for years, doing nobody, including the parents and the kids themselves, no favours.

Make sure your own children understand the power of "no", and also that if another child does not respect their "no" then they should get away from that child immediately.  In fact, all the other kids in the road need to be taught the power of "no" as well, and to ignore these troubled children if they do not respect that "no" - can you talk to the other parents about this?  It would be easier and perhaps more profitable than talking to the parents of the troubled kids themselves.

Best of luck.  I'm sorry you are in such a difficult situation.

[Miss Piggy]

Any other veiled criticisms of my parenting forthcoming?

You posted this issue asking for advice; people have offered it (and have not necessarily criticized your parenting, but you've interpreted it as such). Think about walking up to those parents and basically criticizing their parenting WITHOUT them having asked for any advice. What do you think their reaction would be, simply based on your own reaction above? I think your reaction here is pretty telling, and may be typical of any parent. I suppose that's why you're hesitant to discuss the issues with them.

That said, I think it's good news that this is not YOUR house, and ideally, this living situation is temporary.

[Milizard]

Good points.  I don't read this situation as needing so much fore-thought and planning.  If I were on the receiving end, making a big production out making a special meeting  would upset me more than anything.  Having you tell me immediately would be better.  Even at the party.  Then I could deal with my kids immediately as well.

To the kids: my kid is a lot younger than you, so you have to be more gentle if you're going to play with her.  If you want to be more rough, go play with bigger kids.
To the parents: your kids are a lot bigger and sometimes get too rough for my kid who is only 2.  Would you mind talking to them about being more gentle with her or playing with the bigger kids if they want to be more rough? I'm afraid they might accidentally hurt her without realizing it.

Personally, I draw the line at stuff that could possibly land my kid in the emergency room.  Even if it's not that serious, it always seems to take forever and I've already wasted enough of my life in hospitals with family members.

[charis]

Any other veiled criticisms of my parenting forthcoming?

You posted this issue asking for advice; people have offered it (and have not necessarily criticized your parenting, but you've interpreted it as such). Think about walking up to those parents and basically criticizing their parenting WITHOUT them having asked for any advice. What do you think their reaction would be, simply based on your own reaction above? I think your reaction here is pretty telling, and may be typical of any parent. I suppose that's why you're hesitant to discuss the issues with them.

That said, I think it's good news that this is not YOUR house, and ideally, this living situation is temporary.

This is a great example of way it is so difficult to talk to parents about parenting.  People giving advice about what they would do or would recommend doing is not a "veiled criticism" - it is just advice, which will sometimes conflict with a given parenting style.   If one chooses to view that some kind of criticism, that is not the fault of the advice giver.   

I personally wouldn't talk to the parents because, in my experience, it's usually futile and uncomfortable for everyone.  You can only control what happens at your house.   

[SisterX]

Any other veiled criticisms of my parenting forthcoming?

You posted this issue asking for advice; people have offered it (and have not necessarily criticized your parenting, but you've interpreted it as such). Think about walking up to those parents and basically criticizing their parenting WITHOUT them having asked for any advice. What do you think their reaction would be, simply based on your own reaction above? I think your reaction here is pretty telling, and may be typical of any parent. I suppose that's why you're hesitant to discuss the issues with them.

That said, I think it's good news that this is not YOUR house, and ideally, this living situation is temporary.

Considering that my attitude was called "twisted" and that a mod had to make a remark reminding people to be kinder, I don't think my comment was out of line. Yes, there have been plenty of people who've been judging me for letting my kid run somewhat freely on the dead end of probably one of the safest streets in the country. Not that they know that, but judging without knowing the entire situation is part of the problem. These forums used to be kinder....
I was not trying to bring in the people who've honestly given good advice. Thank you for all of that. We're going to talk to the other parents this weekend, because they need to know what's going on and set some boundaries of their own. I think the dad, at least, will be somewhat receptive. Unfortunately, it's the mom home all day. We'll see if anything changes. If nothing else, having other parents telling us it's okay to parent the other kids somewhat will change our behavior. This is our first/only kid, so I wasn't certain what's considered acceptable in that realm and have been mainly holding myself to playing defense on our end, rather than telling the other kids off for being little shits. (I won't phrase it that way to their faces.)
Also, I realized last night that with the colder weather coming that should put a damper on some of this as well. The other mom won't let her precious angels play outside in less than optimal weather. And the 1st grader, of course, is in school all day.
Lastly, my kiddo will be starting half days at preschool soon. She'll get a better example of how to play, have time with kids her own age, and just get away from home/the street for a while. So the situation will change some just naturally. If the stars align, we'll be moving off this street before next summer and we won't have to deal with these people on any more than a superficial level when visiting my family.

[mm1970]

Any other veiled criticisms of my parenting forthcoming?

You posted this issue asking for advice; people have offered it (and have not necessarily criticized your parenting, but you've interpreted it as such). Think about walking up to those parents and basically criticizing their parenting WITHOUT them having asked for any advice. What do you think their reaction would be, simply based on your own reaction above? I think your reaction here is pretty telling, and may be typical of any parent. I suppose that's why you're hesitant to discuss the issues with them.

That said, I think it's good news that this is not YOUR house, and ideally, this living situation is temporary.

This is pretty much what I was thinking.  I certainly wasn't providing any criticism of your parenting style. I  was applying my own parenting style, my specific situation (for example: a busy street with no fenced front yard and a driveway that goes to a different house in the back - no way in HELL my smaller child is allowed out there without an adult), and my own kids' personalities (aka, the escape artist) to your situation.  Kids are different - I hear girls are different than boys.  My kid would wander off if he were capable of doing so.

And in my experience with my kids, and their classmates and friends...an immediate response from an adult works best.  AND works often even if it's not a parent.  10 year olds misbehaving on a school bus (field trip) - a quick "hey, stop that".  For smaller kids, a sharp tone goes a long way.

[hoping2retire35]

People, chill.

I believe what the Op is asking is not how to be a mama bear or better ways to conduct supervision, but rather, how to interact with another adult parent. Yes, sisterX?

Ill admit my experience with this is pretty limited and don't have much advice but to get things started (in the thread) in the right direction Ill offer more genralized advice. Depending on how you approach the parents they could get really defensive, ending the fun light hearted times as I believe you are describing as your urban tribe.

Perhaps you need an ally, your neighbor whom you have discussed this before with, so that they don't think you are the problem. Knock on their door or next time you see them drop off their kid, just wave and ask if they have a minute. explain 2 incidents where you witnessed something (be calm, seem responsible, etc), after you explained what you witnessed lay it on. (This is the real mama bear way) say how your worried someone could get hurt, your daughter is the smallest...if you seem visibly upset its probably not a bad thing.

if you can get the other neighbor who has also witnessed it, to simply stand behind you while you explain then I would imagine the situation will take care of it self after that, assuming the parents are decent and reasonable. If other neighbor wants no part of it mention that you are going to confront them and say that if they get defensive if it is ok to say OT also witnessed the behavior.

You really don't know how they will react when first hearing this so just go kinda light and be open.

[hoping2retire35]

Any update sister X? I would honestly like to hear how you and others have effectively dealt with these situations. Not just the 'keep them inside' or 'tell off the parents' but more of the no win situations that were able to be sufficiently resolved.

[totoro]

When my son was being bullied by the neighbourhood kid I just called his parents and arranged a meeting.  We sat down, discussed my concerns.  They talked to their kid.  The kid apologized to my son.  Problem solved and remarkably my son and theirs became and remain friends ten years later.

I would make sure you can discuss this calmly with the parents.  They may not respond as well as in my scenario but they just might.

I never left my three-year-old unsupervised.  I can see that it might work in some scenarios but it seems like a fence might be helpful - and lock the toys to the porch.

[firelight]

OP, I feel for you and your kid. If my kid was bullied this way, I'd be worried too. As you said, if the situation naturally resolves in some time, then it's best to play defense a bit longer. But if not, then I'd suggest going in with the other parent whose kid was bullied/manipulated to tell that all kids in the neighborhood are affected. If you think other parent doesn't want to be involved, call CPS. Because the kids are learning such behavior at home or are under so much stress from starting school, new baby brother/sister, not enough care at home so they act out on the street, etc. Either way, it's not good for the kids too and it would be good to have more help in resolving the situation.

Hang in there momma!!

[SisterX]

I finally got around to talking with the other mom. (I was busy last week, then they had people over all weekend and I didn't want to do this in a way that would embarrass them, blah blah blah.) I raised just a few of my concerns, mostly the violence from the younger kid and the fact that they were in our yard trying to tell my kiddo to jump out of a second story window. The other mom immediately piped up with, "They're not really aggressive kids...." Yeah, whatever lady. I said that I was sure she wouldn't let them get away with that behavior if she knew what was going on ("Of course not! We have firm rules in our house.") and was careful not to place blame. She said she'd talk with the kids and since then I've noticed her outside more often when the kids are.

I've also started stepping up more when the kids are in a group. Yesterday they were going to run away from my girl again, until they saw she had a toy they wanted to play with. They immediately started asking if they could play with it and, guilelessly, my girl handed it over. I'd been on our porch listening, but I went over and told the other kids that they were not allowed to just play with her toys. If they want to play with my kid's toys, they have to play with my kid as well. Otherwise it's just stealing, and it's mean. They seemed a bit chastened, and they were definitely making a bit more effort to include my daughter after that.

I also stepped in when one of the boys threw something heavy at another boy. I've never been sure when it's okay to parent other people's kids, especially when mine isn't even involved, so I wouldn't have done that without you guys saying it's okay. I calmly pointed out to the boy who'd done the throwing that he'd hurt his friend, asked him why, was that a good reason to hurt his friend, etc. Said that he needed to tell his mom what he'd done, and to apologize to his friend. (It was the 4 year old bully who got hurt, so I'm thinking that he hasn't been learning all of this violent behavior from siblings. Some of it is from his own peer/friend group.)

Final note: the day after I had the talk with the other mom, my girl was playing on the sidewalk and ended up hurting herself pretty badly on the sidewalk in front of their house. The pavement is cracked horrendously and it caught the wheel of her bike, she flipped forward into the street and faceplanted. I thought at first that she might have broken her nose, was worried she could have lost some teeth, but other than a huge scrape down her face and quite a bit of swelling she's okay. (Thank goodness for helmets!) I talked to the other moms about it, partly out of fear that someone would think we've been abusing her, mostly so that they'd warn their kids. I don't want the others getting hurt right there. I also said that I'm going to email the city about that section of sidewalk to try to get them to fix it. Well, Other Mom asked if she could take a couple of pictures for their own email to the city. I didn't think about it until after, but I wonder if she was doing that in part to protect herself in case we sue? I think a while ago I heard a story that they'd dropped something heavy there when moving in and it had cracked the sidewalk. I didn't remember that until after she got the pics, though.
It wouldn't even have entered my head to sue the neighbors just because my kid hurt herself until my dad mentioned that he thought the sidewalks are technically an easement on people's properties. Still seems like a silly reason for a lawsuit, especially since it didn't even warrant a trip to urgent care, but I suppose there are people out there who'd do it. Especially since I'd just talked with her about her kids being mean to mine. Oy. What a mess.
Don't worry about my kiddo, she was asking to get back on her bike within three hours of her crash. And she's healing up really well. I'm glad my husband was home to help with that, because I was so shaken up from watching it happen that I was pretty much useless. Husband was the one who checked her teeth, checked for broken bones, etc. I was the post-injury snuggler.

People, chill.

I believe what the Op is asking is not how to be a mama bear or better ways to conduct supervision, but rather, how to interact with another adult parent. Yes, sisterX?
 

Yes, this is what I was looking for. Sorry I didn't respond before, I got super busy. I wanted to know how to approach the other mom in the least combative, confrontational way, because I didn't want her to get defensive and just reject what I was saying out of hand. So my question was mostly, if you were the other parent, how would it be best to approach you so that you'd listen, despite any natural inclinations to think that your kid couldn't be that vicious? Maybe I didn't make that clear enough in the first post.

[KCM5]

Glad to hear that you're getting involved and the neighborhood children are behaving better.

Regarding the sidewalk, in my city they would send a letter to the homeowner and require that they fix it within 3 months (pushed back to June or something if its winter).

[BlueHouse]

I also stepped in when one of the boys threw something heavy at another boy. I've never been sure when it's okay to parent other people's kids, especially when mine isn't even involved, so I wouldn't have done that without you guys saying it's okay. I calmly pointed out to the boy who'd done the throwing that he'd hurt his friend, asked him why, was that a good reason to hurt his friend, etc. Said that he needed to tell his mom what he'd done, and to apologize to his friend. (It was the 4 year old bully who got hurt, so I'm thinking that he hasn't been learning all of this violent behavior from siblings. Some of it is from his own peer/friend group.)

Good job on all of it SisterX, but especially the quoted part above.  It sounds like you may have a positive impact on many families and you've let those boys know that it's not okay to hurt other people or themselves!  Thanks for the update.  I didn't see this going nearly as well as it did, so you definitely did some things perfectly!

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Wow, happily surprised at the outcome.

[hoping2retire35]

Awesome! sounds like it went as well as it could. Remember they don't really know how you really feel. I take it from your writing that you would just like this to be water under the bridge and your kid to be able to play with the other neighborhood kids. The bad kid parents don't know that. You may want to be somewhat proactive in reassuring them that you are cool with them (assuming you are).

On another note. Situations similar to this is why I would be hesitate to look for my tribe. With the twins we have always been on high alert and attentive, never one of those 'relaxed' parents. I have noticed at family gatherings and other events I end up patrolling everyones kids, sounds like OP is in a similar situation. Not sure what you can do about that except to enlist a few more responsible parents to keep an eye out.

All updates are welcome.