Traveling abroad for an extended time

[clairebonk]

My family is tentatively planning on renting our home and spending a year or two abroad. We'd home school the kids (three ages 6-12).

We've been talking about this vaguely for years but now we've reached the time where we need to do serious planning.

My spouse and I did 2 years abroad before we had kiddos. 35 countries, spent less than 35k. We did a lot of sleeping on buses, camping, hosteling with bedbugs, etc. I don't think we could do this with kids, so how do we do it? I was thinking we pick a few places and spend 3 months renting a place in one spot.

The goals are, in order:

1. Kids start to learn a 2nd (or more) language
2. Kids are exposed to new cultures- food, customs, clothes, climates, etc.
3. Kids get comfortable in new situations, and get a little travel savvy
4. Have lots of time in the outdoors hiking, skiing, camping, etc
5. Unschool the kids, let them learn at their own pace what they find interesting
6. Family bonding time- something they'll never forget
7. I don't have to work for a few years (maybe ever depending on how things look when we come back)

Do you know of others families doing something similar?

What are your ideas of how to pull this off?

TIA

[ixtap]

If you want the kids to learn languages and customs, they will be best off interacting with other kids. Personally, I would be looking at putting my kids in summer camps, after school programs or even school itself for that experience.

For many kids, this can be a great experience. For some, though, moving every three months could be very stressful. Establish routines that you can take with you anywhere to help them adapt. Watch for signs of stress in all family members and be willing to adapt the plan

Being in foreign country is exhausting. It is a lot like being a toddler again, trying to make sense of all the new things. Incorporate those outdoor activities before heading off, so that they aren't also more exhausting than they need to be. Consider making your first port of call someplace where English is the primary language.

There was an FI family pursuing travel with young kids, but I haven't heard much about them since the pandemic. Amongst the sailing youtube families, I can only think of one with kids in your age group (sailing Zatara), and I think their youngest was a tween when they started. But if you start looking at sailing or other slow travel channels and blogs, you might find other families that can offer tips.

[reeshau]

I agree that the locals are going to be able to teach your kids other languages a lot more effectively than you you are.  You might even do better in an international school, geared toward teaching the local language as an additional language.

Why are you thinking 3 months?  Is that somehow matched to the number of countries you are targeting?  Or is it oriented around the 90 day visa-free travel you can get in the EU?  I would look at longer stays oriented around the school year, so maybe 9 months / 3 months, so you could still do more of the open travel / unschooling in the summer, and the language learning / culture through a local school the rest of the time.  To this extent, do you have on-demand work skills?  You could perhaps even get a work visa and local job, and get some of that same local culture exposure for yourselves, not to mention entitlement to services and funding for the trip.

[FLBiker]

We're thinking about doing this in a few years (DD is currently 7).  We're more interested in living a place or two over a couple of years than traveling every few months, though.  If we were to do it, we'd go with the intention of her going to school in the place we went (with her as an only child, I don't love the idea of homeschooling her).  And she's currently doing French immersion, so it would be great to go somewhere that spoke French.  This isn't a dealbreaker, though.  DW and I are both ESL teachers (DW currently, me in the past) so one of us would likely get a job for the minimum number of hours required to get a visa.  And, for context, we moved 2 years ago from the US to Canada to we're technically living abroad now but our intention is to become Canadian citizens.

I lived in Taiwan for 5 years, China for a year and England for a year, and I really enjoy living different places.  I'd love to share this with my family, but at the same time I don't want them to feel like everything is unstable.  I think it really depends on kids, though.

[Sibley]

I suspect that you'll do better, or rather, the kids will do better, if you pick a location, live there for a year or 2, and do shorter trips from that home base. You should also keep a close eye on the kids for signs of stress.

Also, do some research into parenting styles in the location you'll be in. Norms vary widely and at minimum you want to be aware of them.

[getsorted]

My son was younger when we lived abroad (ages 3-6), but I have to say... it was completely wasted on him. A young child may not care about historical significance. Travel won't be a rare or unusual experience for them.

I distinctly remember standing on a bridge over the River Thames, trying to point out the Houses of Parliament to my then four-year-old son, and he got really excited and shouted, "Look, Mama! Look! IT'S A BUS!" (Not even the double-decker buses. It was just a regular bus)

This Mother's Day, his teachers asked him to fill out a questionnaire. To the prompt, "What was an exciting trip you took with your Mom?" my son, former frequent visitor to internationally-renowned museums, medieval cathedrals, Jacobean mansions, historic universities, falconry demonstrations, etc., wrote "Mama took me to Silver Dollar City." (A theme park in Branson, Missouri).

Your mileage may vary, but be prepared that they may just remember standing in a lot of lines, being bored in a lot of museums, or forget large swaths of the experience altogether.

The other thing is I think he felt quite rootless. He still frequently asks me, "Can we stay forever in this house? Can we not move ever again?"

[reeshau]

Travel won't be a rare or unusual experience for them.

First off, I totally agree with you.  We are back in Ireland after two years away, and almost nothing registered as memories or desired activities or destinations, until we started seeing things.  Then, there was a lot of "Oh, yeah."  One exception was visiting his old school on their last day of class.  He was surrounded like a rock star, and they had a blast; in many ways, picked up right where they left off.

But, if the above is all you accomplish--that you grow a global citizen who can become comfortable in some circumstance other than the one they are currently in--then that is something.

[PDXTabs]

I distinctly remember standing on a bridge over the River Thames, trying to point out the Houses of Parliament to my then four-year-old son, and he got really excited and shouted, "Look, Mama! Look! IT'S A BUS!" (Not even the double-decker buses. It was just a regular bus)

This Mother's Day, his teachers asked him to fill out a questionnaire. To the prompt, "What was an exciting trip you took with your Mom?" my son, former frequent visitor to internationally-renowned museums, medieval cathedrals, Jacobean mansions, historic universities, falconry demonstrations, etc., wrote "Mama took me to Silver Dollar City." (A theme park in Branson, Missouri).

My youngest is 13 and I love this story so much.

clairebonk, I've had a couple of drinks tonight and I'm going to be a little extra emotive. My older half-brother was raised in Hong Kong, Australia, and New Zealand. For all the struggles that he endured having his parents in different countries he wouldn't change a thing. His early life turned into a life long adventure in Japan, Hong Kong, China, and Singapore.

I have often wanted to take my children on a similar adventure but I co-parent with a woman who is very American and my kids aren't super excited for that adventure. If your spouse is onboard then I say you fucking send it! Even though I was born in the USA and I haven't lived in Hong Kong since I was two years old I've been back to visit Hong Kong and Scotland and it has changed my outlook on life. People in the USA have a very US-centric way of thinking and if I could give my children one thing it would be a more global view. In fact I'm taking my two youngest to spend three weeks in Scotland this September but that pales in comparison to two years abroad.

[getsorted]

I distinctly remember standing on a bridge over the River Thames, trying to point out the Houses of Parliament to my then four-year-old son, and he got really excited and shouted, "Look, Mama! Look! IT'S A BUS!" (Not even the double-decker buses. It was just a regular bus)

This Mother's Day, his teachers asked him to fill out a questionnaire. To the prompt, "What was an exciting trip you took with your Mom?" my son, former frequent visitor to internationally-renowned museums, medieval cathedrals, Jacobean mansions, historic universities, falconry demonstrations, etc., wrote "Mama took me to Silver Dollar City." (A theme park in Branson, Missouri).

My youngest is 13 and I love this story so much.

clairebonk, I've had a couple of drinks tonight and I'm going to be a little extra emotive. My older half-brother was raised in Hong Kong, Australia, and New Zealand. For all the struggles that he endured having his parents in different countries he wouldn't change a thing. His early life turned into a life long adventure in Japan, Hong Kong, China, and Singapore.

I have often wanted to take my children on a similar adventure but I co-parent with a woman who is very American and my kids aren't super excited for that adventure. If your spouse is onboard then I say you fucking send it! Even though I was born in the USA and I haven't lived in Hong Kong since I was two years old I've been back to visit Hong Kong and Scotland and it has changed my outlook on life. People in the USA have a very US-centric way of thinking and if I could give my children one thing it would be a more global view. In fact I'm taking my two youngest to spend three weeks in Scotland this September but that pales in comparison to two years abroad.

I just don't know that I am raising a global citizen or a non-US-centric person. I live in the armpit of the Midwest and this kid thinks it's paradise-- cousins galore, swimming in the river, a single tap on the bathroom sink. He doesn't remember/understand how much worse his school is, or how much I struggle to pay for health care. All that stuff is grown-up stuff.  He has had a couple of unpleasant interactions around our lack of religion, which will likely get worse over time. But he's a kid and his friendships don't yet require much more depth than wanting to play.

But I might just be seeing things on the darkest timeline. I'm feeling incredibly isolated at the moment and have a ton of regret (is it still regret if you didn't have a choice?) about being back here.

[PDXTabs]

I distinctly remember standing on a bridge over the River Thames, trying to point out the Houses of Parliament to my then four-year-old son, and he got really excited and shouted, "Look, Mama! Look! IT'S A BUS!" (Not even the double-decker buses. It was just a regular bus)

This Mother's Day, his teachers asked him to fill out a questionnaire. To the prompt, "What was an exciting trip you took with your Mom?" my son, former frequent visitor to internationally-renowned museums, medieval cathedrals, Jacobean mansions, historic universities, falconry demonstrations, etc., wrote "Mama took me to Silver Dollar City." (A theme park in Branson, Missouri).

My youngest is 13 and I love this story so much.

clairebonk, I've had a couple of drinks tonight and I'm going to be a little extra emotive. My older half-brother was raised in Hong Kong, Australia, and New Zealand. For all the struggles that he endured having his parents in different countries he wouldn't change a thing. His early life turned into a life long adventure in Japan, Hong Kong, China, and Singapore.

I have often wanted to take my children on a similar adventure but I co-parent with a woman who is very American and my kids aren't super excited for that adventure. If your spouse is onboard then I say you fucking send it! Even though I was born in the USA and I haven't lived in Hong Kong since I was two years old I've been back to visit Hong Kong and Scotland and it has changed my outlook on life. People in the USA have a very US-centric way of thinking and if I could give my children one thing it would be a more global view. In fact I'm taking my two youngest to spend three weeks in Scotland this September but that pales in comparison to two years abroad.

I just don't know that I am raising a global citizen or a non-US-centric person. I live in the armpit of the Midwest and this kid thinks it's paradise-- cousins galore, swimming in the river, a single tap on the bathroom sink. He doesn't remember/understand how much worse his school is, or how much I struggle to pay for health care. All that stuff is grown-up stuff.  He has had a couple of unpleasant interactions around our lack of religion, which will likely get worse over time. But he's a kid and his friendships don't yet require much more depth than wanting to play.

It's possible that your son will see things differently than I do. I have a lot of family that are not US citizens. I have a sister in law and two nieces that has never set foot in the USA. Also, I guess that a lot of my world view came after I was grown when I started to visit my non-US family of my own volition.

[Dee18]

I moved, with my then 10 year old daughter, to China for 5 months.  It was a fabulous experience but the key factor that made it fabulous was her attendance at a great international school.  Students there were from more than 2 dozen different countries.  Teachers were all fluent in English; for most it was their first language. At home my daughter attended an award winning public school, but the international school was so much better.   The school followed an International Baccalaureate program.  Students who did not know Mandarin had language class every day.  She made friends quickly as students there welcomed newcomers.  She spent time with families from other countries, and saw some very different lifestyles. We even traveled on week-ends with some of the faculty who were also new to China.  Since she went there knowing very little of the language, she would not have made friends if she had been homeschooled.  During the school year most children are in school most of the day and hanging out with their friends or at after school activities the rest of the time.  When we left after 5 months, she was incredibly sad to be leaving and I wished I had signed on for staying a full academic year.  When she finished high school she went on a 3 week group trip to China without me.  In college she spent time in Thailand and another semester in China, and moved to teach English abroad for a year after college.  She is truly comfortable traveling anywhere.
 
Moving locations every 3 months would be more like a series of family vacations.  I think it would be exhausting as it takes time to learn the public transit system, where and how to shop, and enough language for the basics.  It still could be a great experience, but 3 months with homeschooling would be unlikely to lead to new language ability or friendships with other children.  if your children would be happy being homeschooled now, without a lot of interaction with peers their own ages, than it would probably work out well.

You might enjoy reading Gabrielle Blair at https://designmom.com/
Around 2010 she and her husband moved with their 6 children to France for a couple years.  They returned to the states for a while but have again moved to France.  I think her blog posts of their initial move might be incredibly helpful for you.  I believe all the children went to public school and they would have included children the ages of yours.

[ysette9]

It isn’t quite the same, but we are spending almost two months in France this summer with our three kids, 3-8. We are here specifically because I want my kids in an environment where they can improve their French. As others have said, they have to be in an immersive environment for that to happen. We have done our best in the US with French preschool and Saturday school, and me speaking French with them, but nothing is the same as being surrounded by their peers who are all speaking French.

I have signed my kids up for centres de loisirs, which is like a public day camp. Child care here is an awesome system integrated with schools from little babies all the way up. So much better than the US, and affordable. That said, to sign up I needed an address.

We are making this work by doing house exchanges. So for three weeks, Family A stays at our house while we live in their house. The website I use also allows for points-based exchanges along with reciprocal exchanges, so I have some other people staying at our house while we stay at Family B’s house. So lodging is essentially free outside the $100 yearly website membership.

That said, if I didn’t speak French it would be quite difficult to set this up. As it was it was a good exercise for me in navigating bureaucracy in another country. It wasn’t particularly onerous, but being totally different was challenging because I didn’t necessarily know where to start. It was clutch having some friends and in some cases the house exchange family helping me along.

When my mother was a kid her family lived in France for three years as my grandfather was stationed here. They lived in their American bubble for the most part with friends on base and schooling in the American system in English. I think she sort of sees as a big missed opportunity (I certainly do). In three years they could have all easily learned the language and integrated into a public school way of life, giving them a real look into what it is like to live elsewhere. As it was with all of the moves they did in the military they were just always different and sort of shy and friendless as a result. The one thing it did give them was perspective that *this* isn’t the only way people live, where ever *this* is at the moment. So that was valuable.

I don’t say that to discourage you from going of course. But just my opinion that if you could spend longer in each location and get the kids signed up for public school then I think they will get a lot more out of it. It would be harder initially for them but far more rewarding. Then again, that means taking into consideration visas, so you’d have to choose accordingly.

[clairebonk]

Oh do I love crowd sourcing advice from the MMM community!!!

We spent a full day at the Smithsonian last week and my middle child, the one whose personality I worry about for traveling, loved DC the most. I'm getting excited about these plans!!

@ixtap I checked out the sailing Zatara family. So interesting!! I love to learn about families that aren't afflicted with ivy league preschool syndrome.

@reeshau Yes the 3 months is related to visa limitations. I am a software engineer and can work anywhere. However I do not want to work for a few years- it's so easy to get a decent paying job, my motto is on-and-off FIREing.

@FLBiker Wow, you've experienced a lot! I think if family is stable, like parents are reliable and helpful and empathetic, kids can deal with a little bit of traveling instability?

@Sibley I just don't know what to pick... what if we hate it and we're stuck for a year or two? I'd rather travel around for a bit and let the kids choose where they want to live. I loved Ushiaia, but wasn't there in the winter. I loved Bariloche, but how long will it take to find a place that's walkable but yet not on a busy road, I loved Agordo but it's not really bikeable and we needed a car to get to the mountains (maybe buses?), I loved Tromso and St Gallen and Interlaken but that would blow our travel budget, I loved Antigua (Guatemala) but was ready to move on after a month, I loved Akademgorodok but what if Russia starts killing its neighbors (oops that already happened), I loved Bamako but couldn't handle that weather for a long time, I loved New Zealand but that's not a language difference. How to choose??? I don't think we can afford to rent a place *and* do trips. That's paying 2x housing which doesn't align with my mustachian values.

@sadiesortsitout I agree but my youngest will be 5 and my oldest 10 so I think that's the best compromise. I hear kids don't want anything to do with their parents around age 12, so hoping to be back in the US (or settle down somewhere else) by then.

@reeshau "grow a global citizen who can become comfortable in some circumstance other than the one they are currently in"
Yes 100%!!!! It's about seeing there are other ways to live and other cultures and values and histories.

@PDXTabs YES! Why not do it, right???? What is there to lose except for a US centric mindset? This is the mustachian attitude I expected!

@sadiesortsitout We spent a few months in the midwest this summer, cousins galore! The kids loved it, and I enjoyed a lot of aspects (Native culture, lakes, less of a rat race). My mental health would deteriorate if I was forced to move back there, however.

@Dee18 I think part of the adventure/fun is the challenge of learning the public transit system, finding the best grocery store and what items we want to purchase, learning the basics of the language as a foundation (later they can choose what language they want to specialize in). A series of family vacations sounds AMAZING to me. We are trying to go to places where we kinda know at least one person and they can help introduce us to more. We've hosted a lot of couch surfers, met a lot of international students at university, and stayed at couch surfers all over the world.

@ysette9 What an amazing experience you are giving your kids, that sounds great!!! I love the idea of camps rather than full-time school. I love the idea of a home exchange that's free but we live in Northern California and can't afford our mortgage if we're not working, so part of the appeal of traveling is staying in cheaper places so our money lasts longer. What site do you use? If we don't decide to leave and travel, maybe that can be a good compromise.


We absolutely loved Huaraz Peru when we were there a decade ago and kept in touch with a few people. A friend of a friend of a friend runs this school, the school year is March-December: https://www.waldorftoday.com/2012/03/semillas-de-vida-sowing-seeds-of-life-in-peru/
We're trying to figure out how to make that work in some capacity. LOTS of planning and weighing different ideas. The planning/dreaming part is almost as exciting as the doing part.

[clairebonk]

Have y'all seen the movie Captian Fantastic starring Viggo Mortenson? There is a scene where his character's kid starts reciting the constitution while the suburban kid whose house they are staying in can't even speak in coherent sentences and just wants to play video games. (I think, I saw it awhile ago.) And the kids get exercise running through nature and wear whatever clothes they want and they forage and can and the wife goes crazy because she's constantly getting shoved back into US society that just doesn't make any sense? I identify so much with that movie and that family. I've got a handle on my mental health, don't worry, but it takes a lot of work.

[ysette9]

I am using Home Exchange (https://www.homeexchange.com/?sponsorkey=megan-55e72). This is our first time trying it, but so far, so good. There are people on the FB groups that have done 30+ exchanges, so there are some real pros out there.

As for the day camp, this works in the summer, obviously. They also offer after school and school holiday care in the same model, but my host brother told me that he guessed it would be harder to just sign up as an outsider since there would be fewer spots available. In the summer people tend to travel, so there are fewer kids at any given time needing the day camps.

[Cassie]

I just thought I would add a different perspective. I have a friend that was raised in a military family that was transferred a lot. As a adult she has a lot of baggage from that experience. At 17 they were done moving and she is now 60 and would never move again despite being in this town all these years. When she talks about it she has trauma from the experience despite having a loving family. We went to Europe together and she was on high alert the whole time and stressed out.

[ysette9]

I just thought I would add a different perspective. I have a friend that was raised in a military family that was transferred a lot. As a adult she has a lot of baggage from that experience. At 17 they were done moving and she is now 60 and would never move again despite being in this town all these years. When she talks about it she has trauma from the experience despite having a loving family. We went to Europe together and she was on high alert the whole time and stressed out.

My mother also moved a ton with her military family and struggled because of it. But it seems she still appreciates  for traveling and was doing plenty of it before Covid. She sent us kids off on plenty of trips when we were teenagers, so I’m guessing she makes a distinction there between a finite time and an entire childhood.

[clairebonk]

Update on middle child. This is the child I worry about the most, as they tend to be the least flexible and most opinionated. They cried for six weeks every morning before kindergarten. However, first grade started this week and not a peep. Not a tear or a negative attitude at all. Not a concern whatsoever expressed. I really think this is due to our intense summer travel of 3 states and six different house visits. Quarantine really prevented experiencing new situations, learning and adapting to new people and places. Now, the kid is confident that they can handle it. Phew.

[ysette9]

Update on middle child. This is the child I worry about the most, as they tend to be the least flexible and most opinionated. They cried for six weeks every morning before kindergarten. However, first grade started this week and not a peep. Not a tear or a negative attitude at all. Not a concern whatsoever expressed. I really think this is due to our intense summer travel of 3 states and six different house visits. Quarantine really prevented experiencing new situations, learning and adapting to new people and places. Now, the kid is confident that they can handle it. Phew.

Yay! Glad to hear.

[mahalomusicmag]

I was also going to mention Home Exchange. It works pretty well and is great for families to have a home base. I've travelled with my son to 11 countries and he's 12 now. He doesn't necessarily remember all of the events or places, but I think it does increase awareness about other cultures.

[CatamaranSailor]

I took my son to Europe for a semester. He was able to keep up with school (this was before Covid, but the district did have an online high school). We did "Workaway's" https://www.workaway.info/ It was a fabulous experience for both of us. We stayed with a family in Switzerland who wanted their daughters to learn English and on a horse farm in Normandy France. I would absolutely do it again. Workaway's basically roll out like this: you agree to help out with whatever the host needs in exchange for room and board. The cool thing is, the requests are really varied. There are people who need help with farming, folks who need help with shelter cats or restoring vintage boats or..whatever. Like I mentioned earlier, one of ours was staying with a family who simply wanted someone to practice English with their kids. Of course, you need to do your due diligence, but some of the opportunities are just plain incredible. If you really want to get to know a city or town in a foreign country, there's no better way, IMHO. :)

[malacca]

Look for my previous posts.

We have done exactly this. And we have friends that have done the same.

We are old pros.

The last trip was during the pandemic - Panama, Turkey Denmark:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/global-run-away-panama-turkey-and-europe/

Our Malaysia and Taiwan 2 year stint:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/moved-abroad/

Feel free to message me.

I recommend more depth. Stay in one place for longer. The kids need the stability and the cost will be lower. I would say 6 months in one place. Keep in mind you can "travel" around while in this 'place.' But kids need a place familiar to come back to.

I do not recommend traditional home schooling. It is a lot of work for the parents. There are several other options. In my state they offer online schooling as an option (existed before pandemic). And there are some online homeschool systems with real teachers, etc.

We did home school our kids for a short time until they could get into a public school in Malaysia. My kids are fluent in Chinese (they go to a Chinese Immersion program in Minnesota) so they went to a local Chinese school in Malaysia. And then they went to a local school in Taiwan.

Spanish is easy for kids if they are above average in English. My daughter is every good with languages and attended a Spanish school in the 2nd grade and picked up Spanish in 5 months - and ended up in the top 20% of her class in Spanish.

I doubt kids will pick up much language if they are not in a local school. Kids just do not have the opportunity to speak to anyone their age unless in school. We spent some time in Panama and my daughter rarely got a chance to speak much Spanish outside of shopping (they were doing e-learning, not attending a local school).

[clairebonk]

We went to Europe for 77 days, slept in 10 countries and 27 cities, stayed 52 nights with friends/family and 25 Airbnb/hut/hotel. It was the best time of my life. The kids had so much fun too.

[sasha520]

My family is tentatively planning on renting our home and spending a year or two abroad. We'd home school the kids (three ages 6-12).

We've been talking about this vaguely for years but now we've reached the time where we need to do serious planning.

My spouse and I did 2 years abroad before we had kiddos. 35 countries, spent less than 35k. We did a lot of sleeping on buses, camping, hosteling with bedbugs, etc. I don't think we could do this with kids, so how do we do it? I was thinking we pick a few places and spend 3 months renting a place in one spot.

The goals are, in order:

1. Kids start to learn a 2nd (or more) language
2. Kids are exposed to new cultures- food, customs, clothes, climates, etc.
3. Kids get comfortable in new situations, and get a little travel savvy
4. Have lots of time in the outdoors hiking, skiing, camping, etc
5. Unschool the kids, let them learn at their own pace what they find interesting
6. Family bonding time- something they'll never forget
7. I don't have to work for a few years (maybe ever depending on how things look when we come back)

Do you know of others families doing something similar?

What are your ideas of how to pull this off?

TIA

Did you do it? Would love to hear how it went!!! I am in the planning stages of our time abroad right now