Spending as an outlet to/from parenthood?

[onemorebike]

Good evening staches with ministaches, your thoughts are appreciated.

My wife and I were returning this evening from a three day "vacation" we took to the mountains to hang in a condo with another family, ski some, snow shoe some and hang out some. We are parents of two young children (3.5 years and 9 months) that have us feeling exhausted at the beginning and end of every day and searching for something to look forward to that will help us/her through the tougher times. There are a lot of parts of the way we live, spend our money, etc.. that are very mustachian, but life has been so stressful with two at-work parents and two young children that I think we are desperate to find a way to celebrate when we aren't too exhausted to stay upright. My wife in particular has had vacation-itis, looking for ways to escape either for a weekend or for long vacations, most that include spending (albeit frugally) on trips away.

The drive home brought a few really big questions to mind for me: 1) Do any mustachian parents have suggestions/ideas for obtaining the gratification of "getting away" (especially in winter) without the cost? I mentioned to my wife on the way back that for the cost of our half of the condo we essentially could have hired a sitter for much of the weekend back in the city and gotten an actual break instead of being busy with young ones in the mountains (only slightly different than being busy with them at home). 2) In general, how do other parents deal with the urge to reward yourselves when stress levels are high, children are frustrating and the end doesn't appear in sight?

-onemorebike

[Ishmael]

I feel your pain. We have two young ones (8 and 4) and they leave us feeling much the same way, and we're lucky enough to have grandparents that help a lot.

It's a crazy paradigm - you love your kids desperately, and wnat to maximize your time with them, but you end up being so exhausted that it's hard to appreciate as much as you want to (which you then feel guilty about :) ). It's why MMM's execution of early retirement just in time for a little one was a brilliant move. Parenting is indeed like another full-time job.

Here are some things we've been trying to do:

• Get out of the house a lot - parks, nature, etc., especially where there are other kids for them to play with. The other kids use up their energy, and you get to watch and hang out with your wife (and other adults). When we're home, we're always faced with something that has to be done, but when you're out you're not faced with "essential chores" so the focus is easier.
• TV - sometimes, sticking them in front of an interesting DVD is necessary, just to get your wind back.
• Looking around for free/reasonably priced neighbourhood (municipal) activities, like science camp, fun days, organized sports and the like that are supervised and allow us some free, or at least easier, time.
• Giving each parent a day alone occasionally. One of us will take the kids somewhere, and let the other parent recharge a bit.
• Reminding myself that the kids don't remember the downside of the experiences when they get older. They won't remember the struggles to get them ready; they'll only remember the day they had out. Kids have a pretty positive selective memory, which is great. Remember back to the fun times of your childhood, and see if you can remember your parents nagging you to get ready for them :)
• Reminding myself that all too soon they won't want to have anything to do with me as a teeny-bopper.
• Relax the mustache muscle slightly. Kids are demanding, and selectively applying a bit of money to make your life more efficient can be money well spent. I don't think Mustachianism is about always spending as little as possible - it's about making sure you get good value for the money you spend.

I'd love to hear tips and thought from other parents too; it's pretty exhausting trying to be a good parent!

[Use it up, wear it out...]

My wife and I also have small children (5 & 3) and don't have any family in the area. We have developed some coping mechanisms that might help:

• We try to give each other dedicated time off almost every weekend. For example, I take the kids to church on Sunday mornings, so my wife gets the apartment all to herself from 10AM-2PM
• We give each other separate long-weekend "vacations". Last year, I went to a monastery upstate for 4 days, accessible by regional train, and this year I went to a weekend-long workshop and slept at home every night. My wife went to Philadelphia (2 hrs from NYC) to stay with a friend for 4 days last year, now is looking at a weekend workshop that matches one of her interests
• We've started a babysitting cooperative with our neighbors, so we regularly trade free babysitting. Sometimes we use that money for more "spendy" dates than MMM might approve - like going to the theater - but often will go for a picnic in a nearby park, take a long walk, or go visit friends for child-free dinner
• Have other friends with kids over regularly - partly, kids entertain each other more, partly "many hands make light work" - it's somehow easier when the adults are grouped together. To this end, we host potlucks every Friday, where the kids run around, the neighbors bring leftovers or some one-pot dish, and everybody eats without cooking, has a beer, and decompresses from the week. We also have more focused gatherings such as the "craft afternoon" my wife hosted 2 weeks ago. About 7 of her crafty friends came, a few with kids, and hung out working together all afternoon, drinking coffee and whatever snacks people brought

[bogart]

I feel your pain.

DH and I each get "nights out" every week.  He gets 2, I get 1, which makes sense (in my book) because he is the SAHP.  He spends his hanging out with friends (they meet up in a particular bar, drink beer, and watch sports, scandalously stereotypical) and particularly in these colder/darker months (I often do stuff outside when the weather/daylight are better), I sometimes meet friends (last week I went to a movie!) but I also do scandalously extravagant things like stay late at work (I enjoy what I do, and having a quiet office and proverbially clean desk), go to quiet spot and eat a simple (bought or packed) supper while reading, and/or (brace yourself) go  grocery shopping unfettered by other humans and time constraints.  Ooh lala!  Neither of us is "due back" at any particular time on these evenings, which I think is part of what makes them so relaxing (among the big downsides to parenting a young kid for me is the endless need to stick to a schedule for handoffs, etc.).

As for the actual travel stuff, would visiting grandparents (aunts, uncles, etc.) be an option?  Someone you could leave the kids with and go out to dinner on your own (at least)?  We did very, very little kid-free travelling during the first 3 years of DS's life and -- yeah -- having a kid along pretty much makes it "not a vacation" in a very important way (not that there aren't fun aspects of vacationing with kids, but the "getting away from it all" aspect is -- gone.  We did, like @Useitup..., spell each other somewhat (take separate trips) and that helped, too.

Ours is, well, just one kid (so a smaller N) and older now (kindergarten), and it's getting better.  Plus we're not dealing with everything you are, what with DH being out of the workforce.  So hang in there, but also do what you can to stay sane while you're waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel.

[Kaytee]

Oh man, do I ever understand this. It's not a very mustachian suggestion, but sometimes throwing a little money at a situation like this can occasionally help. What about using some dollars to purchase pre-cooked meals or a cleaning service to come in and take some of the load off periodically? That could relieve some of the day-to-day exhaustion and help learn to love the life you have instead of having a life you need vacations to escape from. I find traveling with little ones to be A Big Hassle and everything takes twice as long as it did when it was just the two of you. Anyway, maybe relieve some of the day to day stuff and take a look at what systemic life changes you can make to make daily life easier. For example, grocery shopping for two weeks takes the same time as one week. With a meal plan, I can chart out meals for two weeks, but only have to grocery shop every other week. This saves me several hours on a weekend that I can use for down time with kiddos.

I'm sure I'll get face punched for this :)

[bogart]

Ooh, Kaytee got me thinking.  You know, I used to be the sort of traveler who'd fly from NYC to Detroit to Brussels to Madrid with a one-night layover spent in one of those airports to save $50 over a direct flight.  Or who'd, you know, drive here to there to there to there while on vacation with no particular itinerary.

Having a kid changed that.  New rules:  one plane change/layover per destination.  No hopelessly weird connection times or other hassles.  Plane changes to be made before jet lag sets in, where feasible (we have family in Europe).  Car/domestic travel to be structured around driving (flying) to a single destination and staying there, preferably not having to get in a car at all once at destination.  Food and food prep feasible on-site (restaurants not required).  And mostly, destinations and activities that do not involve cold-weather clothing or application of special ... anything, such as bug spray or sunscreen (obviously we use those when needed, but points are subtracted for destinations that require them).

Indeed, we now own a camping trailer, and a lot of our trips involve driving to a campground and staying there.  We keep the camper equipped, so all it's necessary to pack before we go are kid's clothes (I figure he grows too fast for it to be sensible to leave some of his in stock; I leave mine in the camper, DH manages his own) and food.  And of course we all (now) know the routines involved with setup, breakdown, and being in place, and there's lots of outside stuff to do (and not much else) where we are.

We are finally to the stage where DS is strapped in to a booster seat with a seatbelt, not a 5-point harness.  But getting little kids in-and-out-of-cars:  OMG.  Definitely worth minimizing, IMHO, and yes (without having turned into bike-everywhere Mustachians), I now factor that into our vacation planning.

[Dee18]

Next month my 16 year old daughter is going along as a nanny for a week-end with a single mom who has a two year old son.  If you are going somewhere fun for vacation, you might see if a teen would want to go in exchange for the free trip.

When my daughter was young, I looked for places to go where part of the time she would be at some sort of day camp.  These were two places we went that turned out great.  For the second one, my 82 year old mother also joined us.

http://www.eliotinstitute.org/       a Unitarian family camp near Seattle

http://www.coa.edu/famnatcamp.htm    College of the Atlantic family nature camp at Arcadia in Maine.

[gooki]

Learn to love the madness.

[kolorado]

((hug))I've been in your shoes(except for the two parents working part) and I know it is overwhelming many days. My oldest two are exactly two years apart and both have special needs that conflict with each other. Lots of "fun" with that when they were very small. :/
I agree very much with Use it up, half days off as a parent and weekends away by yourself are astonishingly refreshing. I make it a point to not take the kids out for errands 95% of the time. Yeah I'm "working" but that 3 hour break from kiddos that need stuff from me really does a lot of good. Sometimes I take a morning to browse a thrift store or antique shop by myself and buy myself a coffee or ice cream afterwards. Usually by then I'm almost excited to get back to the hubby and kids and all the craziness.
I also pad a block of 1-2 hours every evening to be unavailable and by myself in my room while hubby handles the kiddos. I exercise, read, watch a British drama or do online classes.  It's really important to set aside some time for yourself and force yourself to ignore what may be going on in the other side of the house.
I also go for a weekend or two away every year by myself. When I lived in NJ I would go to my church's women's retreat. Later this month I'm flying out by myself to visit my sister and celebrate her 35th birthday weekend. The weekend will cost $500 whereas my church weekends cost more around $300. I didn't have to fly for those though so it's not terribly worse.
Now that our kids are mostly beyond the most demanding baby stage(2.5,8 &10)we are in the market for a small pop-up camper. Most of the newer ones can actually still be used in the winter since they come with heated mattresses and furnaces. Many even have little bathrooms. My brother has been taking his family camping every year, year round since they were tiny babies. He's a lot more gung-ho than the average person though. I've always dreaded "vacations" with small children. The location may change but the workload does not. And when you're trying for a frugal vacation, the preparation for the trip and clean up afterward only adds to the feeling of tiredness. So we decided after a few tries with that to put those kinds of trips on hold until the kids were old enough to help with the preparation and keep themselves amused in the car and at the destination.

[Christiana]

Someone once called this age the "tired thirties".

Earplugs are a big help, sometimes.

We've simplified a lot, and have made our home more like a vacation house--smaller, much less unnecessary Stuff, and much faster to clean up.  I have a weekly cleaning schedule so I don't have to think much about it, just do the next task for the day and check it off.  Likewise, we have daily and weekly routines--decisionmaking takes more energy than most people realize--but with some slack built in, so we don't have to race against the clock.  I cook mostly from scratch, but it's all simple, quick meals.

We do spend some on various forms of self-medication (chocolate, in my case), but it's less than what we spent on entertainment/recreation before having children.  We don't have to travel to seek out physically challenging recreation anymore--just leaving the house and doing things together suffices for that.

Young children cycle through their stages quickly.  You're in the middle of mastering the baby/preschooler combination.  If you have more children, you'll probably go through that combo again, but with an older child (your oldest) added to the mix.  (If that makes sense.)

[Mrs MM]

I hear you.  We only have one kid, but sometimes I feel the same way (however, money doesn't seem to come into it for us).

I do think that making a conscious change in your perspective really helps.  I notice that when I'm in the right kind of mood, so is my kid (for the most part).  When I really get into parenting and doing things he enjoys, it makes a huge difference in our day.

Also, starting the day by going out (for a walk or bike ride) sets the right tone as well.  The days where we're still in our pajamas by noon are sometimes fun, but usually end up being more difficult.

Coming up with a plan in advance works great with our 7 year old.  The day before, we'll talk about what we'll do the next morning and then we don't end up stuck in the house as much.  We even came up with a "weekend book" (just some stapled pieces of paper) where we write down what we will do during the day.

Playdates and hanging out with friends is also great.  MMM and I also tag-team a lot.  For example, today is a late start day at school and he's out on a bike ride with Jr. Stash.  I am here wasting time, when I should be doing other things... Ha!

Okay, guess I better get going on my awesome day!  Good luck!

[onemorebike]

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses!

I want to sift through them with my wife and talk about those that really stand out. (I bet many will stick)

I'm really starting to embrace the idea of staycating with kids until they are older, perhaps taking the money saved from not taking two or three trips a year and instead putting that money toward random nights with a babysitter so we can both get away. I think we both talk about designating certain nights for individual time but we have had  particularly difficult toddler (which is saying a lot coming from a couple who started their careers working in a treatment center for emotionally and physically abused children) and I think feel guilty about leaving the other to cope with the tantrums and demands of a 3.5 year old. (this terrible twos has been quite drawn out) Before you put on your judgy pants, I promise you we spend shitloads of time with our kids, are very predictable and don't encourage additional negative behavior - yet her terribles have been long and terrible.  Anyway, I digress. As a result we don't take that time that we really need to recharge and get back in the game.

A few things we've noticed that we hope to change:

• • We go to sleep almost immediately after the kids (from exhaustion) trying to stay up a little later and get up a little earlier to have a life that isn't always child-centric is key. I hope to improve that.
    
    
  • We identified that trips away may not be the answer but may ramp up babysitter use, even if it is for a walk or ride to a nearby coffee shop. (we're riding to restaurant week in Denver tonight!)
  
  
  • Shopping alone has been something we've discussed but don't always do. (again, the guilt kicking in, that kiddo can be rough.
  
  
  • We do a good job of hanging with other couples with kids, but may try to be more intentional about that being a weekly affair. Winter has added to this struggle but today it is in the 50s. :)
  
  
  • Setting up a cooperative with these same parents is on the list, we just never have followed through with it. Needs to happen soon.
  
  
  • Spending a little money to indulge in a class or something that interests us that isn't household management, our day jobs or raising children.
  
  
  • Finally, days/evenings off, where we just let go and let the other take the evening (without curfew) could be transformative. I sense our oldest will soon be clear of terrible and this could be easier.
  
  Any other insights would be embraced, please keep them coming!
  
  

[Use it up, wear it out...]

Also - what time do you put the children to bed? I'm a firm believer in 7:30 or 8PM for young children - better sleep for them, and also adult time for you.

[onemorebike]

The 9 month old is asleep by 7, the 3.5 year old by 7:45. Yep, that's right, we go to bed at eight most nights. :)

Also - what time do you put the children to bed? I'm a firm believer in 7:30 or 8PM for young children - better sleep for them, and also adult time for you.

[Kaytee]

I think we both talk about designating certain nights for individual time but we have had  particularly difficult toddler (which is saying a lot coming from a couple who started their careers working in a treatment center for emotionally and physically abused children) and I think feel guilty about leaving the other to cope with the tantrums and demands of a 3.5 year old. (this terrible twos has been quite drawn out) Before you put on your judgy pants, I promise you we spend shitloads of time with our kids, are very predictable and don't encourage additional negative behavior - yet her terribles have been long and terrible.  Anyway, I digress. As a result we don't take that time that we really need to recharge and get back in the game.

Not to derail this thread from what you originally posted, but I'm wondering if you have tried any type of elimination diet to help with your toddler? I know of instances of removing trigger foods having a drastic impact on behavior. Typical trigger food are gluten, dairy, sugar, artificial dyes/food/processed food. It might be something to consider, depending on what your typical diet consists of. Since you started your careers working with abused toddlers you probably already know about this, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

[tooqk4u22]

Every once in a while we will send the kids (3) to grandma's for a saturday night and we go back to our house, make something good or get sushi takeout, and just lay in bed. So quiet and relaxing. We somewhat feel guilty about it but then again we spend a lot of the time just talking about the kids - and the next morning everybody is so happy.

[Viv A. Stache]

Today was particularly bad, so right now I don't feel like I have a good response. What we try to do is trade off once or twice a week for some free time, DH goes to a friend's house to sample beer, and I usually go to open houses or trivia night at a local bar. What really helps is finding other parents to hang out with. It was hard for me to do at first, but I do have one friend who will switch out kids with us. My work schedule is insane, switching from 12 hr days to 12 hour midnight shifts, so when it works out, I'll take her to daycare for the morning and spend my alone time cooking and cleaning with the radio on and no interruptions. I know I could be better about this though, I end up spending at least a few hours online or doing who-knows-what. Ideally I'd be precooking all of the meals for a few days and running errands before the crowds take over.
The only thing I've found that helps ease the day to day is wearing my 2 yr old out. If she doesn't get outside and exercise time, naptime is short, which makes the evenings overly difficult. In the winter I was taking her to the pool ($3 toddler hour) or even the mall play place. When the stress levels get too high and we feel we just can't handle dinner, we'll grab a rotisserie chicken from Sam's Club on the way home, it's usually good for 2 meals. When things get really bad and I'm ready to book an all inclusive resort in Hawaii, I plan a trip home to grandma's house and let her take care of us for 2 days. These are the only date nights my husband and I get regularly, and we take full advantage. 

[MountainFlower]

First, it will get easier as they get older.  When our kids were that age (they are now 3 and 5), I was totally overwhelmed and in bed by 9 too.  We also both work.  Our kids are so much easier now.  It's completely night and day for us. 

For us, going on vacation with kids the age of yours was exhausting, not restful at all.  When you both work and you're taking care of needy kids, there's no time to even pack.   Then, once you get there, you're dealing with kids the whole time.  It wasn't our thing.

For me, keep the kids in daycare and take vacation time to do two things:
1.  catch up on household tasks that never get done.  It relieves far more stress and provides more peace of mind than a vacation with two small children EVER could for me.
2.  go on hiking dates with my husband.  Last August we climbed James Peak while the kids were in school.  It was totally awesome and WAAAY better for us as a couple than a dinner date would be.  We do this a few times a year.  Sometimes just for an hour or two hike, but it really restores us. 

The other thing I suggest is to work from home, but take an hour of two of vacation time that day, if you can, to knock something off your list that's bugging you. 

Hang in there.  Really, it should get better, even with the challenging one.