Scouts etc. - Costs/earnings by being a leader

[Le Poisson]

I often bemoan my wife's level of involvement in guiding/scouting, and especially how her volunteer service adds up in terms of costs. She is forever getting 'little things' for the kids meetings, taking time for leaders' meetings (Don't forget to bring cookies!!) using up resources to make things work, etc. etc. (Do you have 20 nails and about 30 feet of string? I need to put together an activity for the kids.)

She has been involved with Guides since she was a kid, and is now an area/district guider - which mean less of a time commitment, although more intense, contact with the girls, but a much greater workload on putting together things like camps and training and so on. I admire her work, but she really donates a lot of time and resources. Guides has a budget, but how do you bill for muffins at a leaders' meeting, or the one bag of popsicle sticks you rushed out to get on the meeting night?

Last year our eldest boy enrolled in Beavers (Scouting). At the time we agreed that neither of us would have any involvement since part of the reason for enrolling him was that he gain some independence. Then SWMBO didn't like the way the troop was being run, so she stepped in as a parent advisor. Now she runs his unit and advises on a second. And guess what - more time, money, resources, meetings, cookies and coffee. Of course Scouts has a budget as well, but still much out of pocket and incidentals that "aren't worth invoicing."  Oh and now we are expected to support scouting by buying $25 bags of popcorn as well $5 boxes of guide cookies (The cookies are better).

The other side of this equation is that for the involvement she has, we now have a network of scouters/guiders with different skills. The only one we really use is one guider who offers our son piano lessons at a reduced rate. He struggles, but its good for him.

So yeah - I have some issues with level of involvement in these things. On the other hand, when our teen daughter got involved with Sea Cadets, I was supportive. Cadets pays the kids to go to camp. Their uniforms are free, and they learn the same skills in a more disciplined environment. We are out of pocket about $50 a year for trips and weekend camps, it seems like a much better investment. The kids fundraise twice a year by going to shopping cetres in uniform and asking for donations - dangerously close to panhandling, but for a cause. They also sell poppies to raise funds for the Legion - who return the favour by hosting dances and dinners to support the kids.

Last week I was approached by one of the Cadet corps officers to join up. In order to be involved there, you need to give up a lot more information - so they can put you on payroll as a Canadian Forces Reservist. Oh, and when you retire, cadets offers you a military pension to match your days served against the Canadian Forces Pension plan. The more involved you are as a leader, the more they pay for your time, and the more you get in the pension. Of course its a pittance, but at least there is some reimbursement.

Now I know Cadets is paid for by our taxes, but for what it offers the kids (at no charge) and what it offers the parents (at no charge) and the difference between that and what Scouts/Guiding takes out of the families in terms of time and money, why is it that so few kids end up in the Cadet movement? Locally we struggle to keep a corps at 30 kids - and we're PAYING them to go to camp!!! Scouts is charging us $300 for a week of daycamp, last summer our daughter came home with $400 for attending 2 weeks of summer camp with all meals, transportation, and clothing provided. When she came home, she had First Aid Certification, CYA sailing certification, her Powerboat operator's card, and Marine Band Radio Operator's licence. As a kid I got a licensed as a Marine Engineer, and flown coast to coast. Friends of mine toured Europe to represent Canada at the Vimy Memorial and visit WW1/2 sites with the Legion.

I'm baffled. I just don't get it. I can't transition the boys out of Scouting fast enough, yet those in Scouts defend the organization with religious fervour.

I guess I'm just ranting. But I need to rant. Arrgablargablarg.

[nubbs180]

Your rant reminded me of the following page titled "Burnout!" at a site dedicated to learning and teaching scouting skills without the organizational hassles.

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/burnout.htm

It isn't just you, nor is it an unsolvable dilemma, if you want to disentangle. 

[zolotiyeruki]

I'm involved in BSA as a scoutmaster, and I see some of the same things you're seeing in terms of costs, time commitments, etc.  I don't have all the answers, but here are a couple thoughts:
1) Scouting is self-supporting, while Sea Cadets is subsidized via tax dollars.  So it should come as no surprise that the out-of-pocket expenses for the kids and their parents will be higher with Scouting, and the fundraising efforts more extensive.  It's the nature of the beast.  Keep in mind also that Scouting is mostly volunteer-run, and there's always a need for more time/effort/money from the ones who volunteer.
2) I'm fully behind the goals of Scouting--I think it gives young men (and boys) great opportunities for character growth and skills.  But I won't pretend that it's the only good approach.  You've got an alternative in the Sea Cadets, while I'm not aware of anything similar in the US.
3) Don't lose sight of the purpose behind your kids' involvement.  What is the desired outcome?  If both programs meet your objectives, then by all means choose the one that better fits your budget.

[Le Poisson]

I think the biggest issue is that we are in so deep in so many of these things. Its nice to get thank-you's but I doubt any of the kids or parents see the level of effort that goes in.

We were at a guider's house the other night and she was ticking off inventory of camping gear, then rejigging her family vacation time around an upcoming sale at an outdoors store. She's buying the stuff for her unit and stashing it away in her closet, but doing it all out of pocket because the kids are going to need it, but we'll never have budget. So she owns a half dozen tents and a huge griddle, etc. etc. Once those tents are torn/worn out/broken, no one will replace them. No one is paying her for that vacation time.

But at the end of the year she gets a pin and a thank-you, and encouragement to come back and give more next year. Because, what you are giving now only sets the bar for how much more you could be giving. That's my real issue. I look at my wife and how she has incrementally given time and effort to this, and while she is proud of it and feels good about it, I see it as a weight she carries around. I expect that by this time next year, she will be leading 2 troops and on her way to area leadership in scouts as well as guides.

The rabbit hole is easy to enter.

[I'm a red panda]

I got so much from Girl Scouts as a girl that I am completely willing to give to the organization of my time and money as an adult.

And I don't even have a kid. 

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

I had a Girl Scout leader like that. She was probably the second most important woman n my life after my mom and taught me sooo much, even if at the time it didn't seem like it.

It ended for her. When her daughter graduated high school, she gave up the service unit leadership position and the older girl troop. But she still loved scouting, so she started a new troop... for Daisies. (Age 5.) No camping trips, no cookie sales, and she was not going to move up with them.

Maybe be patient and make a deal like that with your wife, that there is an end date. Seriously, Mrs. Stockdill, wherever you are, thank you.

[CommonCents]

This is true for many non-profit organizations.

I am President of a non-profit.  My "reward" is that every year I get to give more in donations and time, and I bring in some occasional treats for meetings and things for others.  It always seems to amp up, now down, so I'm starting to feel burnout and will step down at the end of this year or maybe next.  If she feels it's rewarding and she's getting back out of it or enjoys the impact she's making on other's lives, then it's hard to look at it from a purely dollars and cents perspective.

(Now the fact that the organization has a former member who for safety reasons, was asked leave, escorted out by police and, had the membership fee returned, who is threatening to sue me personally / get me disbarred - THAT "reward" for my thousands of hours of work and money, I am extremely unhappy about.)

[Grog]

Well I can relate to this, I was scout then scout leader up to 28 y old before arbuptly end it. I can understand the desire and the willingness to prepare and organize the best scouting experience, but with the time I learned that this is deeply wrong.

Scouting is the one movement where to be truly good and educative it doesn't have to be perfect, far from it. When activities are perfectly organized and run like oiled gears, then you have the wrong people in charge (they are too good, they are preventing other people to assume responsibility and to learn from mistakes).

When you are too involved or you don't like what other guides are doing, you have to let go and learn that this doesn't impair children for learning and being educated.

I don't know how it works in the US, but during a national camp here in Switzerland (where every federal state can more or less have their own scouting rule regarding age and such) I've seen a troup with 22 kids from 10 to 14 with one leader of 19. They didn't do the best construction or the more complicated and cool activities, but everyone contributed, kids of 12 were cooking (sometimes failing at it, then they would eat only onions), cleaning, organising activities and I can assure you they were ready to take on responsibility and they were fully functional and educated boys & girls (we are mixed).


Perfection is the death of learning by doing, and this goes with experienced leader too. You must learn that young green leaders full of enthusiasm failing at an activity (and learning while at it) brings much more to the movement that perfect, suffocating activities by older and better leaders.

In my last years I almost only practically counseled for risks and risk management (in this, experience really is important), but activities, budget, expenses, inventory everything was done by young and inexperienced leaders. If something would be amiss or didn't work out so good, well we would just smile and sing by the campfire. Can't go wrong with that.

Delegate, delegate, delegate. It makes the experienced leaders crinch and suffers, but in the end everyone wins.

If your wife doesn't see it, well then you really have a problem. How old is she? Personally I think that 22-24 years old should be the maximum age for active leaders, after that it should only be counseling and risk review of activities.

It will not be perfect, but everyone in the pyramid would be learning soooo much. And build more strength of character.

[Le Poisson]

Well I can relate to this, I was scout then scout leader up to 28 y old before arbuptly end it. I can understand the desire and the willingness to prepare and organize the best scouting experience, but with the time I learned that this is deeply wrong.

Scouting is the one movement where to be truly good and educative it doesn't have to be perfect, far from it. When activities are perfectly organized and run like oiled gears, then you have the wrong people in charge (they are too good, they are preventing other people to assume responsibility and to learn from mistakes).

When you are too involved or you don't like what other guides are doing, you have to let go and learn that this doesn't impair children for learning and being educated.

I don't know how it works in the US, but during a national camp here in Switzerland (where every federal state can more or less have their own scouting rule regarding age and such) I've seen a troup with 22 kids from 10 to 14 with one leader of 19. They didn't do the best construction or the more complicated and cool activities, but everyone contributed, kids of 12 were cooking (sometimes failing at it, then they would eat only onions), cleaning, organising activities and I can assure you they were ready to take on responsibility and they were fully functional and educated boys & girls (we are mixed).


Perfection is the death of learning by doing, and this goes with experienced leader too. You must learn that young green leaders full of enthusiasm failing at an activity (and learning while at it) brings much more to the movement that perfect, suffocating activities by older and better leaders.

In my last years I almost only practically counseled for risks and risk management (in this, experience really is important), but activities, budget, expenses, inventory everything was done by young and inexperienced leaders. If something would be amiss or didn't work out so good, well we would just smile and sing by the campfire. Can't go wrong with that.

Delegate, delegate, delegate. It makes the experienced leaders crinch and suffers, but in the end everyone wins.

If your wife doesn't see it, well then you really have a problem. How old is she? Personally I think that 22-24 years old should be the maximum age for active leaders, after that it should only be counseling and risk review of activities.

It will not be perfect, but everyone in the pyramid would be learning soooo much. And build more strength of character.

I like this Grog, and I agree - Its great to learn by failing in a safe environment, then take that experience and stretch it to greater success. Believe it or not, in Guiding (girls only) she is in a good spot - an administrative support role) but with scouting (mixed boys and girls) she is knees deep with 4-8 yr olds, and she does organize pretty amazing activities. Every. Single. Week. for two units.

And then weekends - we haven't had a weekend without a scout/guide activity in 2 months. I've basically given up on doing anything with the family. And the organizations are very thankful for her time, but that's all we get out of it.

[MayDay]

My H is leading the Boy scout troop for DS (den, whatever it is called, I can't keep it straight).  There are a remarkable number of idiotic emails from parents.  There is a remarkable lack of anyone else being willing to step up to organize anything.  There is one remarkable mother who made a spreadsheet of every SINGLE merit badge and her son (these are 7 year olds mind you) earned THEM ALL this year.  At a cost of like 3$ per badge to the den.  His supposed co-leader planned one meeting.

I tried to get him to step down.  The pack tried to get him to be scoutmaster.  He settled in the middle and stayed where he is. 

I did girl scouts into high school, and I will lead DD's Daisy group next year if there is a need.  But I won't go beyond being the troop leader. 

[CommonCents]

If your wife doesn't see it, well then you really have a problem. How old is she? Personally I think that 22-24 years old should be the maximum age for active leaders, after that it should only be counseling and risk review of activities.

It will not be perfect, but everyone in the pyramid would be learning soooo much. And build more strength of character.

Really?  Most 22-24 year olds are in bars drinking.  Those that aren't are working crazy long hours or interested in volunteering in other ways (e.g. big brother sister, habitat etc).  Most (all?) people aren't interested in being a scout leader until their own kids are in scouts.

[I'm a red panda]

Really?  Most 22-24 year olds are in bars drinking.  Those that aren't are working crazy long hours or interested in volunteering in other ways (e.g. big brother sister, habitat etc).  Most (all?) people aren't interested in being a scout leader until their own kids are in scouts.

Most, not all- it isn't totally uncommon for Girl Scout leaders to not have kids. (Maybe it is more common than it is in Boy Scouts, I don't know about them.)


But I think the organization would fold if they had to rely on 22-24 year olds to be leaders. 
Sometimes college (18-22) scouts are leaders, but they generally move on after they graduate.  The 22-24 age group is probably the SMALLEST of the volunteers.  These are people trying to set up their own adult lives. And as this thread has pointed out- it takes a massive amount of time, and some amount of money, to be able to lead a troop.

[Le Poisson]

I think the ratio of youth leaders to adult leaders is likely about 1:5 based on what I see with the groups SWMBO works with. Most of the youth leaders are kids who have excelled coming up through the program, and stay onboard since they are deep into the 'doctrine' of the movement. Interpret that as you will. Some seem almost codependant - as though Scouts/Guides is a defining part of their ego, some seem like they feel they owe a debt of gratitude, and some seem like they truly enjoy it and want to be part of the movement.

By its nature the program doesn't really cater to kids who would be out drinking. Although some of that does happen, I am sure.

[CommonCents]

Really?  Most 22-24 year olds are in bars drinking.  Those that aren't are working crazy long hours or interested in volunteering in other ways (e.g. big brother sister, habitat etc).  Most (all?) people aren't interested in being a scout leader until their own kids are in scouts.

Most, not all- it isn't totally uncommon for Girl Scout leaders to not have kids. (Maybe it is more common than it is in Boy Scouts, I don't know about them.)


But I think the organization would fold if they had to rely on 22-24 year olds to be leaders. 
Sometimes college (18-22) scouts are leaders, but they generally move on after they graduate.  The 22-24 age group is probably the SMALLEST of the volunteers.  These are people trying to set up their own adult lives. And as this thread has pointed out- it takes a massive amount of time, and some amount of money, to be able to lead a troop.

True, now that I think about it, I remember a few leaders without kids.  But it's always been older women who are the leaders, not college kids or young adults as far as I've seen.  I myself helped a (friend's younger sister's) troop as a junior leader at age 16 or 17, but left when I went to college.  And that was rare, I was given to understand.  Anyways,

[Grog]

Really?  Most 22-24 year olds are in bars drinking.  Those that aren't are working crazy long hours or interested in volunteering in other ways (e.g. big brother sister, habitat etc).  Most (all?) people aren't interested in being a scout leader until their own kids are in scouts.

Lol it's like the exact opposite of what's going on here. Fact is, we can go drink beer and wine on bars from 16 (and so is tobacco), so by the time they are 18 is not so funny anymore to get drunk, we already have gotten it out of the system.
Actually we have the problem finding people for the scout age 16-18, that are out drinking and aren't always interested in particpating to "kids activities". So there is like 2 year of rebellion. But then by the time they are 18 they start to get more interested in volunteering and usually 90% of our scout leader are between 18-24 years old, 10% are between 24 and 30, and no one is leader once 30+. No parent is leader, they are not so "welcome" since being a parent you are not always objective. We rely on parents for lunches, pic-nics and stuff but no parent is leader, I never met a single one.

The movement must remain in the hand of the young padawan ;)

And since they don't have any money at that age (most are student), they rely on parents donation or other activities to gather money. I've never put a single cent (apart from the occasional lunch and fuel/car) of my own money, every activity and camp must remain self-sufficient.

Time, oh boy time I've put a lot of it.

But back on topic: It's very difficult to explain, but you have so many memories of the cool activities you did as a child, that it doesn't matter how many hour you put in later you will always have this sensation of happiness for the experience you are "giving back" to other kids. And there is this core belief that in some way you are really doing something "to leave this world a little bit better compared to when you found it". For someone external, it is something crazy and approaching fanatism, but from the inside it just makes sense. And you don't expect "thank yous" and whatevere else, you do it for this duty sense combined with your fond youth memories.

But I don't find correct that your wife is putting her own money into it to buy material and whatever equipment. There should be a group accountant and a group account and money should be gathered by organising bingos or cookies or whatever and if there are not enough money then you should change the scope of activities. One of the core tenet is the self reliance and self sufficiency of activities (very mustachian btw), and sometimes it does better telling for their education to tell the kids that there is no money to go "there" and doing "that" but that instead we could go play indian vs cowboys by the river.

But what do I know, the US are a completely different animal. Probably there are so many kids activities that you have to compete for the kids time? Offer always the cool stuff to avoid kids leaving?

[CommonCents]

Oh they start leaving by 16 here too (most around the start of high school)...it becomes "not cool".

[I'm a red panda]

Oh they start leaving by 16 here too (most around the start of high school)...it becomes "not cool".

Girl Scout drop off in the United States really starts happening around age 10.  By age 16, retention is dismal (if you look at how many were in at age 6 and 7)- but in general, if a girl makes it through 9th grade in Scouts (age 14-15), she is likely to stay in, there is still drop off at age 16+, but not near as much as in the 12-15 year old category.  Getting girls through middle school can seem impossible; because that is when "it's not cool" is the hardest. 

[MrsPotts]

Oh they start leaving by 16 here too (most around the start of high school)...it becomes "not cool".

Girl Scout drop off in the United States really starts happening around age 10.  By age 16, retention is dismal (if you look at how many were in at age 6 and 7)- but in general, if a girl makes it through 9th grade in Scouts (age 14-15), she is likely to stay in, there is still drop off at age 16+, but not near as much as in the 12-15 year old category.  Getting girls through middle school can seem impossible; because that is when "it's not cool" is the hardest.

Seconds to this.  At least in my community, Girl Scouts is an elementary school thing.  Adolescents have different interests.

I was a Girl Scout leader and a Destination Imagination leader and while it was a huge time and money commitment I wouldn't trade those hours with my now grown up baby for all the dollars in the world. 

[Scubanewbie]

I think a lot of good points have been raised but ultimately, does your wife enjoy it?  I mean, its clearly not worth it to you but does she feel the same way?  If she is not feeling fulfilled, then yes, have her pull back.  If not, then I don't see the problem.  In everything from churches to PTA (school parent/teacher groups) there are 10% of people that do 90% of the work.  For me, at PTA I'm one of the 10% and in church I'm one of the 90%.  So my kids can go to Sunday school (I don't teach) and events (that I don't volunteer at) and at school I organize the fairs and fundraisers that only a very minority of the parents participate in but I give generously, in time and 10K baked cookies.  I mean, aren't there any programs where you don't feel that you're "pulling your weight" that you or your wife end up redirecting more of your time to scouting? I look at it as a season of my life (lifestage), right now I may volunteer my time one place whereas when I was childless I did Big Brothers/Big Sisters and when I'm older I'll likely volunteer other places.

As for the two organizations, I agree that its odd that people would pay for something when there's a gov't run/funded program available.  I might (as a naive American) wonder what the gov't benefit is to paying kids to go to camp and be kind of upset my tax money was subsidizing that, but quite possibly that's cultural and I'm just not understanding.

[jgrdarrash]

As with any volunteer position, she just needs to determine wants vs. needs.  The kids do not NEED Popsicles.  And the leaders do not NEED muffins at the meetings.  You don't actually need to purchase popcorn/cookies, our Troop prefers a direct donation to us and Council - we cut out the popcorn middle man that way.  And for time, when our son was in Cub Scouts we required each family to lead one to two meetings a year.  They could pick their topics within the guidelines, but they were the ones leading the meeting, buying any supplies and snacks.  It absolutely is unfair for one family to take on that burden.  It is enough that she is organizing it all, answering emails, doing the administrative stuff, and in charge of a couple meetings.  Good luck.

[DrJohn]

As with any volunteer position, she just needs to determine wants vs. needs.  The kids do not NEED Popsicles.  And the leaders do not NEED muffins at the meetings.  You don't actually need to purchase popcorn/cookies, our Troop prefers a direct donation to us and Council - we cut out the popcorn middle man that way.  And for time, when our son was in Cub Scouts we required each family to lead one to two meetings a year.  They could pick their topics within the guidelines, but they were the ones leading the meeting, buying any supplies and snacks.  It absolutely is unfair for one family to take on that burden.  It is enough that she is organizing it all, answering emails, doing the administrative stuff, and in charge of a couple meetings.  Good luck.

Good for you.  Works very well for Cub Scouts- set up a calendar for the year's program- on the calendar, allocate parent hosts who will have the den around at their place, and provide snacks etc. Tell parents they can change out with each other if not convenient (that never happened), but let the leader know so the program can be updated.  Parents in my experience got competitive with each other (increasing the quality of the program). Parents who did not want to host at home did the go see its or activities at the park etc.  BSA is not Baby Sitting America... Remind if necessary.  Also as Cubmaster I occasionally also dropped in the fact that parents who got involved would be able to draw the same per hour payments as the Cubmaster (which was of course zero) :-)