School/grades - are your expectations high?

[sjc0816]

Found myself in an interesting conversation tonight with another mom. She told me that they expect 100% on every test at school from their kids. As a reference, they are 2nd and 4th grade.  She said if they miss one on a test, they have problems.

It made me wonder how common this is? I always thought I had fairly high expectations until tonight. Do parental expectations like this churn out more driven or successful children? My parents didn't have high expectations and we were pretty average students. Do kids work "up" to their parents expectation?

[Kitsune]

In my experience, kids like that disengage and just start charging their rich classmates for written essays. Hypothetically.

I expect my kid to learn, to be engaged in something, to research what they're interested in, ask for more information, read, and generally be an engaged participant in their education. If they do that, frankly, I don't really care what the grades are like.

[woopwoop]

That sounds like a recipe for disaster in the long run. Grades are irrelevant to long-term happiness, and most of the straight-A students I've seen end up burning out early because of the pressure. Those are the kids who commit suicide when they fail a college course. Those are the kids who pick a job their parents would approve of, even if they hate it. Those are the people who end up trying to keep up with the Jones because "that's what you do." I don't want my kid to end up like that.

As an educator and former straight-A kid: let your kid fail. A lot. Don't ever tell them that it's bad to fail. Teach them to get back up and keep going. That's the only lesson that matters.

[meep]

My expectations are high when it comes to behavior and how they interact with their friends and teachers. I do tend to micro-manage on that aspect and I know I need to back off. Work in progress. I couldn't care less about grades as long as they were actually engaging and putting in their best effort.

[redcedar]

Grades are a big part of evaluating a child's performance at school. Shooting for 100s or As can help both parents and kids get on the same page and it can act as an anchor point for effort and recovery discussions when a lower grade does happen.

[nereo]

We don't have school-aged kids yet, but I'm going to weigh in as an educator.

First, I think setting a bar of 100%, all the time, is too high.
However, for the majority of cases, teachers and subjects my impression is that if you don't get at least a B (and usually an A) it's because you really didn't do the work. For better or worse, our testing programs are designed where an average student should get an above-average grade if he/she just does the reading/homework/practice examples.

There are exceptions - math in particular can be hard for some students.

[VaCPA]

I think high expectations are good within reason. Expecting 100% is too much and probably puts unnecessary pressure on the child. I do think you should push your kids to not just settle for average, although if that's where they end up thats fine too. My oldest is in kindergarten and it's already a bit intense. He gets homework every night, which seems kind of excessive for K, but I have seen ALOT of progress this year. His homework two nights ago was to write numbers 1 to 100. It took him awhile but he did it with  little help from us.

[SeanMC]

This is a disaster for the kids. It creates way too much pressure on the kids. I went to a fairly high pressure private school, and the classmates who had parents like this really suffered. There is a real difference between having the expectation that your kids will take their studies seriously and try their best (and learn from mistakes) vs. needing to be perfect on every test all the time.

Research also suggests the following:

Kids who are told they have to be perfect all the time turn into adolescents and young adults who are afraid to try and fail. They give up easier on hard tasks and won't try to do things that are new or novel to them.

Too much emphasis on grades and rewards distorts how kids feel motivated to learn and succeed by removing it from internal motivation (wanting to do your best for yourself) and placing it on external motivators (needing to get 100% on a test). This kills internal motivation in kids! People who have strong internal motivation do much better than those who have been taught to rely on external motivators.

[Pigeon]

We have high standards, but expecting a 100 on every test is insane, unrealistic and damaging.  We expect our kids to understand that academics take priority over other things while they are in school and we expect them to do as well as they are capable. 

We have a number of acquaintances who fit into the "Tiger Mother" category.  One woman was complaining to me that her son was a complete failure and was having a disastrous junior year in high school.  His GPA had plummeted from a 98 in his sophomore year to a 95, and they weren't going to put up with it and he would have privileges revoked. 

Then she told me how she was hurt when the same son told her he couldn't wait to go to college because he would never return home after and she and her husband would be out of his life forever.  She couldn't understand why they weren't closer as she and her husband sacrifice everything so that their children can succeed. 

The kids of these parents are stressed, alienated and sometimes are suicidal.  I'm sure most of them will end up as doctors or engineers (the only two acceptable career choices), but I don't know that they will be happy.

[AZDude]

Expecting 100% is clearly idiotic, since that is impossible. Expecting good effort is what should matter. When my LO starts grade school, I'll be expecting Bs or higher *most* of the time, with some room for the occasional dud.

[apricity]

That is insane!

We expect/praise effort, not necessarily results.

[Lagom]

While correctly expressed high expectations can be helpful (e.g. those that are focused on effort and responsibility rather than an arbitrary %), I strongly believe the most valuable thing you can teach a child (especially a young one) is how to fail. I've known plenty of straight A students (myself included) that really struggled to find their way as adults due to an unhealthy fear of failure set up by the high pressure put on them as kids. Better they had been A/B students who had internalized the fact that failure is a prerequisite to success.

[neo von retorch]

You may find this read enlightening, shocking?

The Case Against Grades

Edited to add some key points:

*  Grades tend to diminish students’ interest in whatever they’re learning.  A “grading orientation” and a “learning orientation” have been shown to be inversely related and, as far as I can tell, every study that has ever investigated the impact on intrinsic motivation of receiving grades (or instructions that emphasize the importance of getting good grades) has found a negative effect.

*  Grades create a preference for the easiest possible task.  Impress upon students that what they’re doing will count toward their grade, and their response will likely be to avoid taking any unnecessary intellectual risks.  They’ll choose a shorter book, or a project on a familiar topic, in order to minimize the chance of doing poorly — not because they’re “unmotivated” but because they’re rational.  They’re responding to adults who, by telling them the goal is to get a good mark, have sent the message that success matters more than learning.

*  Grades tend to reduce the quality of students’ thinking.  They may skim books for what they’ll “need to know.” They’re less likely to wonder, say, “How can we be sure that’s true?” than to ask “Is this going to be on the test?”  In one experiment, students told they’d be graded on how well they learned a social studies lesson had more trouble understanding the main point of the text than did students who were told that no grades would be involved.  Even on a measure of rote recall, the graded group remembered fewer facts a week later (Grolnick and Ryan, 1987).

[Sibley]

My parents expected and required best effort, and the grades to match it.

In practice, that meant I was expected to get mostly A's, because that was my best effort. My sister is not good at math, and her best effort in math was generally a B, the rest of her classes she was generally As.

But the year I accidentally took a math class 2 levels above what I had been taken, worked my butt of all year, and got a B, then mom made me a cake. Because that B was my best effort. I didn't do well on a test because I was getting sick that day (was out sick the rest of the week) - no problems. There was one time I skipped a quiz and thus failed it - oh, mom was mad and boy was I in trouble. Never did that again! Really don't know why I skipped it anyway.

[MayDay]

I expect effort.

My kids are smart enough that effort = A, but not always 100%.

I frequently choose 20% effort for 80% effectiveness so I can hardly expect perfection from them ;)

[justajane]

My second grader is one of the higher performing kids in his class and he doesn't get 100%. That's not just unrealistic; it would be damaging to the child to expect perfection. I fight the damaging aspects of perfectionism in myself. Why would I want to instill it in my child? At least I would not do it consciously like that.

[Cassie]

Having raised 3 kids I find this horrible.  Our expectations were to try their best and in regard to grades each child was different and had different abilities. I had 2 very gifted kids and one with a IQ in the low average range.  We didn't require certain grades.  Their behavior was very important and if they were in trouble at school they were in big time trouble at home.  As others mentioned kids can become suicidal over such things.  No one is perfect and I certainly would not wanted to have raised kids that hated me. My parents took a similar approach with us and that probably influenced my behavior too with my kids. It worked well in that we are all close. 

[CindyBS]

We expect A's and B's, and give punishments for C's and D's.  Mostly b/c C's and D's are almost always from lack of effort.

However, we give money for A's only on report cards.  I find this to be a good incentive to turn 88% work into 93% work.

[Cressida]

While correctly expressed high expectations can be helpful (e.g. those that are focused on effort and responsibility rather than an arbitrary %), I strongly believe the most valuable thing you can teach a child (especially a young one) is how to fail. I've known plenty of straight A students (myself included) that really struggled to find their way as adults due to an unhealthy fear of failure set up by the high pressure put on them as kids. Better they had been A/B students who had internalized the fact that failure is a prerequisite to success.

Kids who are told they have to be perfect all the time turn into adolescents and young adults who are afraid to try and fail. They give up easier on hard tasks and won't try to do things that are new or novel to them.

I do not have children, but I was one, and I strongly agree with this.

[kanga1622]

I do have what I consider high expectations for my kids but I feel it is realistic. My expectation is that they TRY new things, LISTEN, and give their BEST EFFORT. My 6 year old is a high achiever (taught himself to read at 4 and is years ahead of his classmates currently). We do not expect him to be perfect, in fact he expects that of himself. We really struggled when he started school and he refused to try art projects because he couldn't do them to his standards. He is now much better and will give things a good effort most of the time. He does still come home from school with scribbles all over his papers because he just didn't want to color. :(

I have a feeling our 2 year old will have totally different strengths and school work may not come so easy for him. I do not care what his actual grades will be as long as he is working with his best efforts.

[mm1970]

Found myself in an interesting conversation tonight with another mom. She told me that they expect 100% on every test at school from their kids. As a reference, they are 2nd and 4th grade.  She said if they miss one on a test, they have problems.

It made me wonder how common this is? I always thought I had fairly high expectations until tonight. Do parental expectations like this churn out more driven or successful children? My parents didn't have high expectations and we were pretty average students. Do kids work "up" to their parents expectation?

I have pretty high standards (A's, though our school does 1-4, not letter grades).  But, honestly, my kid takes after me - he puts WAY more pressure on himself than we do on him.  He's in 4th.  When I was that age, I wanted 100% on everything.  He's pretty much the same way.

I expect him to work hard and try.  He's pretty smart.  But he likes things to be easy, and they aren't always.  We don't let him win at chess (though he easily beats me now).  We help him with homework but expect him to learn it and understand it. We make him practice flute and baseball.  The idea here is to work at it.  If you make a commitment (like the music program), then you have to go to it.  You can't quit math club or flute or baseball because you get bored.  You have to finish out the season.

Same thing goes with school. He has to put in his best effort.  Though right now it's handwriting that is the problem.

[galliver]

No kids yet, but growing up, A was the only acceptable grade in core/academic classes (because that's what we were capable of),  a B would raise "what happened" type questions and disappointment, and a C was grounds for no screen time until it was fixed (going forward, not retroactively; I know this from experience, heh). But this all only applied to term grades. Individual assignments weren't looked at unless it was required by the teacher.  They were more lenient on elective classes (art/shop) and PE, especially since they disagreed with the make-up policy (having to show up and do an extra run for some or all days missed...exactly what a kid out with the flu for a week needs! --_--).  I think their approach was pretty reasonable, though I did develop some perfectionist tendencies (or maybe they were innate?)

I do think expecting 100% all the time (or making them think you do) is unreasonable and potentially damaging. However, making it out like grades don't matter is a disservice to children also, in the same way "it doesn't matter what people think" is. Because it does. Grades do matter, but only as long as you're learning something. What your teacher, boss, client, and good friends think of you matters; what your lazy classmates and co-workers think does not.

[Ceridwen]

Another vote for "best effort".  That's what my parents always asked of my sister and I.  They didn't care about the grade, only that we tried our best.  That being said, my dad also sent me off to university saying "have as much fun as possible without flunking out" ;)

Both my sister and I were always on the honour roll.

[neo von retorch]

Grades matter because funding matters and scholarships matter. But how a grade is created hinges on a many things - how the teacher writes the test and grades the test, for example. Grades are not necessarily a good indicator of long-term learning or effort, nor do they tell you how well someone learns in general.

[MrsDinero]

With my first daughter I expected 100% effort not necessarily 100% on every test.

I come about this from my personal experience.  When I was in high school, Algebra and Trig were a breeze for me, I got A's almost without thinking.  However I could not get my head around Geometry.

I actually failed it the first time (Sophomore) I studied but not harder than I did for any other subject.

The second time, I got a D the second time (Junior year but still not considered passing).  I studied harder and put in twice the effort

Finally my Senior I studied twice as hard, got a tutor, and worked with the teacher after school and managed to BARELY squeak out the lowest possible B.  More than 20 years later I am still damn proud of that B.

[formerlydivorcedmom]

I don't expect 100s, but every week I do review every missed question with the kids.  I want to make sure they understood the material and understand why they made the grade they did.

It finally clicked for my 4th-grader that she missed a lot of problems because she didn't read all of the answers, just the first one that "seemed" right.  She's learning to be a better test taker.

I expect them to do their best.  This translates into different grade expectations for each of them, based on their current abilities. 

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

When I used to be a middle school teacher, one of my favorite students was a brilliant kid who made Bs, not As. He didn't always do his homework, and it always seemed like when he didn't, it was because he had something a lot more interesting to do than a worksheet on adjective clauses.*

I see him on Facebook sometimes. He seems like an interesting, convention-challenging, successful young man (with a TRULY astonishing amount of facial hair for a kid still in his late teens, not that that's relevant).

He was learning the material and doing pretty well while developing other interests. My point is--maybe "best effort" isn't always even necessary or desirable.

*I did not set the curriculum and today would not give such an asinine assignment.

[Sailor Sam]

When I used to be a middle school teacher, one of my favorite students was a brilliant kid who made Bs, not As. He didn't always do his homework, and it always seemed like when he didn't, it was because he had something a lot more interesting to do than a worksheet on adjective clauses.*

I see him on Facebook sometimes. He seems like an interesting, convention-challenging, successful young man (with a TRULY astonishing amount of facial hair for a kid still in his late teens, not that that's relevant).

He was learning the material and doing pretty well while developing other interests. My point is--maybe "best effort" isn't always even necessary or desirable.

*I did not set the curriculum and today would not give such an asinine assignment.

I was very dispassionate about school as a kid, and I categorically refused to do homework. In 3rd grade my mum decided some sort of intervention was needed. She sat me down and explained that school was compulsory, and failing was not an acceptable option. Everything beyond that she freely admitted was a societal game. I had to play along well enough to get along, but everything past that was entirely up to me. I took her advice to heart, and didn't fail out, but I never gave more than 40% effort towards any of my primary education.

Once in high school, I started to try a little more. Started doing homework, and maintained a high B average without too much effort. Got a perfect score on the SAT's, and a full ride to college. I entered a good industry, and now make a very good living. Had my emphasized school, my childhood would have been a disaster, and I don't think I would have been as successful.

A couple years ago, I asked my mum if she was prepared keep her side of the laissez faire agreement though high school if I had continued being so disinterested. She admitted that she would have let me drop out at 16 and take the GED, as long as I had some kind of apprenticeship lined up. If only I had known!

[Mr. Green]

Totally depends on the kid. School was easy enough for me that I could get B+'s or better on pretty much everything with minimal effort. The extra effort required to obtain perfects on anything wasn't important enough for me to do it. I had better things to be doing with my time. Just one example there.

[BlueHouse]

I was very dispassionate about school as a kid, and I categorically refused to do homework. In 3rd grade my mum decided some sort of intervention was needed. She sat me down and explained that school was compulsory, and failing was not an acceptable option. Everything beyond that she freely admitted was a societal game. I had to play along well enough to get along, but everything past that was entirely up to me. I took her advice to heart, and didn't fail out, but I never gave more than 40% effort towards any of my primary education.

I figured this part on my own and once I got to college and could select my courses, I always chose my courses with the Pareto Principle in mind. If getting a B took 20% effort, but getting an "A" took 80% of my effort, then I would take the "B", but balance that out each semester with 4 or 5 other courses that I could get an "A" with 0% effort, thus keeping my GPA above a 3 at all times with the minimum amount of work.   The only time it failed me was when i had to take Physics and Chem at the same time.  But overall, I minimal studying and zero homework and still came out with a Solid "B" GPA. 

[Cognitive Miser]

I was internally driven and got all A's all through elementary school.  In the final quarter of my sixth grade year, my math teacher gave me a B.  I was DEVASTATED and knew I earned an A.  My mom scheduled a conference and he told her that I did indeed earn and A, but he gave me a B to teach me how to "fail" when it was low-stakes.  I was spitting mad at him for YEARS.  But do you know what I eventually learned?  The grades you get in 6th grade are really not going to significantly affect your future.

2nd grade and 4th grade is WAY TOO YOUNG to have those sorts of expectations.

[justajane]

I was internally driven and got all A's all through elementary school.  In the final quarter of my sixth grade year, my math teacher gave me a B.  I was DEVASTATED and knew I earned an A.  My mom scheduled a conference and he told her that I did indeed earn and A, but he gave me a B to teach me how to "fail" when it was low-stakes.  I was spitting mad at him for YEARS.  But do you know what I eventually learned?  The grades you get in 6th grade are really not going to significantly affect your future.

2nd grade and 4th grade is WAY TOO YOUNG to have those sorts of expectations.

When I was a grad student and TAed kids in college, once in a blue moon, I would get a plea from one asking me to change an A- into an A. The specific reason was so that they would get on the Dean's List. I almost always declined (with the backing of the main professor). What I really wanted to say to them was, "The Dean's List doesn't matter one iota to your future. I got the Dean's List every semester but one in college and you know what? No one cares. No one even knows."

So, yeah, I'm in the camp that, by and large, the minutia of grades doesn't matter. Sure, getting C's and D's or even just straight B's in high school might limit you in terms of your college choices (within reason), but IMO we put far too much stress on grades.

Of course, I wouldn't have said this when I was in high school either. But I wish someone had told me frankly how little it matters to your future happiness.

[Kitsune]

I was internally driven and got all A's all through elementary school.  In the final quarter of my sixth grade year, my math teacher gave me a B.  I was DEVASTATED and knew I earned an A.  My mom scheduled a conference and he told her that I did indeed earn and A, but he gave me a B to teach me how to "fail" when it was low-stakes.  I was spitting mad at him for YEARS.  But do you know what I eventually learned?  The grades you get in 6th grade are really not going to significantly affect your future.

2nd grade and 4th grade is WAY TOO YOUNG to have those sorts of expectations.

... But that doesn't teach someone to fail, that teaches someone that teachers sometimes suck and that grades, in the end, don't matter.

Which, FAIR, but not necessarily the most productive lesson on 6th grade...

[Hadilly]

I recommend everyone interested in this stuff read Carol Dweck's work on mindset and academic success, either the book or easily found articles. Learning to fail is important!

[couponvan]

I don't expect 100%. I expect effort. Usually effort on their part equals A's with a B or two.

I actually feel bad for my Sophomore son right now in Math - a semester class.  He is stressing himself out that if he misses a point on anything his grade will go down since he is at a 99.95%.

DD 5th grade has mostly A+ grades (because of extra credit).  She is a self manager.

DS 13 - he has vision and hearing issues.  He has to work his butt off for A's in English and/or Spanish.  Usually at least one of them is a "B".

DH (not mustachian) told the kids we will take them on a week long cruise with an ocean view room if they ALL get all A's in a grading period.  So far, we haven't had to deliver.  Last grading period they were so close...I'm researching cruises and how to get them with miles/points.  It has been a good motivator.

[neo von retorch]

I recommend everyone interested in this stuff read Carol Dweck's work on mindset and academic success, either the book or easily found articles. Learning to fail is important!

Yes, I suspect many of us learned how to motivate, encourage and congratulate our children from parents, teachers, peers, trial and error. So some of us may have stumbled across things that seem to work, but there's a lot of research available on what is most likely to work better most of the time.

Things like offering rewards has been shown to offer a little bit of short-term motivation, but undermines their intrinsic motivation, which has long-term negative effects. Grades fall into this category...

[FLBiker]

I agree with most folks on here -- in general, I think it's much more important to focus on process than result.

Growing up, I was very grade / test focused, and did very well in these areas.  At a certain point (~8th grade), I realized that I could get 90% of the grade for 10% of the work and started aiming for A- instead of A+.  Made school much easier, and I learned almost nothing despite being in honors / AP all the way through HS.  College was basically the same, got good grades, learned almost nothing.  It turned a little in grad school, but I still kind of had the mentality that school was a game wherein the goal was to get good grades for minimal work.  While this is a functional approach, I don't think it's the most beneficial orientation to have towards school.  In my opinion, a focus on grades encourages this kind of attitude.  If grades are the goal, this kind of attitude (max grades for min work) makes perfect sense.

[Mountainbug]

While correctly expressed high expectations can be helpful (e.g. those that are focused on effort and responsibility rather than an arbitrary %), I strongly believe the most valuable thing you can teach a child (especially a young one) is how to fail. I've known plenty of straight A students (myself included) that really struggled to find their way as adults due to an unhealthy fear of failure set up by the high pressure put on them as kids. Better they had been A/B students who had internalized the fact that failure is a prerequisite to success.

Kids who are told they have to be perfect all the time turn into adolescents and young adults who are afraid to try and fail. They give up easier on hard tasks and won't try to do things that are new or novel to them.

I do not have children, but I was one, and I strongly agree with this.

+1

[former player]

The child of some friends of my parents was pushed hard at school and ended up having a nervous breakdown he never really recovered from.  My parents didn't push me at all, I got great grades at junior school, middling and declining grades at high school, found a degree subject I loved and ended up as top 5% in and worked my way into a career I loved that took me around the world negotiating inter-governmental agreements and enabled me to retire with multi-millions at 50.

Give your kids a break, why don't you.

[Bikeguy]

I have 3 kids.  15, 14 and 10.

My expectation is As.  However, if they stay at a B or above, they won't hear from me, and I let them know this.  Once something hits a B-, we will be talking daily.  At C+, electronic devices, including TV are gone until the grades come up. 

In our school district, I get daily feedback about their grades from Powerschool.  I love that, because a kid can't not do homework for a month and I not find out.

My kids are smart enough that anything at B- or below is due to effort, not ability.

I have also needed to limit social media on smart phones for one kid.  Every text doesn't need answered immediately.  I have finally told them their phone needs to stay on the kitchen island until their homework is done.

[11ducks]

Im a high school teacher who is naturally super academic, meticulous, and self-motivated. My DS is in 6th grade, and my polar opposite. Sweetest kid in the world, but so far isn't showing a huge amount of academic skill. His behaviour is As, effort is good, and grades are mostly Cs with Bs for math. We read together daily, and we practice at home, but I don't think he'll ever be that A student. And I'm totally ok with it. Not being brilliant is okay. He is the best kid I know.

 I work with a huge range of teens, and know many who are kind, solid, good kids who put in effort but get Cs. And they still turn out great. Maybe not doctors or mathematicians, granted, but good citizens with a solid work ethic who contribute productively to society.

[TVRodriguez]

That sounds like a recipe for disaster in the long run. Grades are irrelevant to long-term happiness, and most of the straight-A students I've seen end up burning out early because of the pressure. Those are the kids who commit suicide when they fail a college course. Those are the kids who pick a job their parents would approve of, even if they hate it. Those are the people who end up trying to keep up with the Jones because "that's what you do." I don't want my kid to end up like that.

As an educator and former straight-A kid: let your kid fail. A lot. Don't ever tell them that it's bad to fail. Teach them to get back up and keep going. That's the only lesson that matters.

+1  I sometimes make a point to ask my kids (in a nice way--with a smile) what mistakes they made and share mistakes I made so we can celebrate the chance to learn from what we did.

"Smart" is over-rated.  I learned that way later than I should have.

[Warlord1986]

I don't have kids, but I do remember the saludictorian from my high school graduating class. Straight As, got into UVA, and we were all just so blessed to know him. He was gonna be big man, really.

He partied too hard, dropped out of UVA, and went on to become a short order cook. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is a far cry from curing cancer.

Compare that to the girl who dropped AP English in eleventh grade. I see her on facebook with a job, loving husband, and two adorable children. She's not curing cancer either, but she's a helluva lot happier than Mr. Straight A.

Me, I was a total slacker in high school. But I went on to get a Masters, I've traveled a bit, and I've written some large grants that were funded. I'm a helluva lot happier than the straight A crowd too. High school is not life.

[Helvegen]

My daughter's school district does not do letter grade or percentage grades. Rather they use a numeric ranking system based on meeting academic standards appropriate for the stage in the school year by grade level. 1-4. 1 means not meeting standard, 2 is meeting standard, 3 is slightly above standard, and 4s - they basically told us this is near impossible to get for the vast majority of children and to not expect this.

As an aside, when I was in 4th grade, I did poorly on a spelling test. My parents made me write out every word 200 (?) times. I started Friday night and by Sunday afternoon was still nowhere near done. Long story short, I ended up literally stabbed myself in my right (dom) hand with the pencil to get out of it. The lead broke off in my hand and I had to go to the ER to have it cut out of my palm. I still have scar. Well, my parents never pulled that shit again.

[LiveLean]

Grades are BS. We all know that, but it's part of the game.

Years ago I taught a writing class as an adjunct professor at the local university. I gave one student an A-minus and was being generous; she deserved a B-plus. Apparently I wrecked her 4.0 GPA and she appealed to the dean. I have no idea what happened. What I do know is that she thought she deserved an A because she did exactly what I told her to do. After all, she had grown up (this was 2001) in the modern paint-by-numbers, check-the-box educational system. Her writing showed no depth, no creativity, no initiative. Sure, she got from point A to point B, but she had no concept of what it took to be an excellent writer. Nor did she care, even though this class was part of her major.

School doesn't necessarily prepare you for anything. As Bill Gates famously said, you have to get out of line at some point.

[AlwaysLearningToSave]

While correctly expressed high expectations can be helpful (e.g. those that are focused on effort and responsibility rather than an arbitrary %), I strongly believe the most valuable thing you can teach a child (especially a young one) is how to fail. I've known plenty of straight A students (myself included) that really struggled to find their way as adults due to an unhealthy fear of failure set up by the high pressure put on them as kids. Better they had been A/B students who had internalized the fact that failure is a prerequisite to success.

Kids who are told they have to be perfect all the time turn into adolescents and young adults who are afraid to try and fail. They give up easier on hard tasks and won't try to do things that are new or novel to them.

I do not have children, but I was one, and I strongly agree with this.

+1

+2, based on my own experience.  My daughter is not yet school aged but I will strive to find the balance of expecting solid effort but not perfection in grades. 

[Vanguards and Lentils]

Grades are BS. We all know that, but it's part of the game.

Years ago I taught a writing class as an adjunct professor at the local university. I gave one student an A-minus and was being generous; she deserved a B-plus. Apparently I wrecked her 4.0 GPA and she appealed to the dean. ...

As a counterpoint to this, I'll share my experience from the opposite perspective. My required writing class was the only class in my first year of college that I did not get an A in, despite a large effort on my part. All my other classes were honors math/science/engineering courses, with objective grading criteria. I was angry not as much out of a sense of failure, as that I missed an extra $500 that my uni gave to students who had a perfect GPA at the end of the year.

To this day I read regularly and can write just fine - concisely, and backed by facts. What I couldn't do was suck up to my writing adjunct in class discussions, aka parroting her liberal hogwash. I had absolutely no respect for a woman who, among other things,

• was obese, and still chose to bring in a bucket-sized iced coffee from Dunkin every class
• told us to read penises into the essays we analyzed

When your teacher is an idiot AND the evaluation is subjective as shit, then yes, grades are BS. For other subjects, like math and science, they can actually mean you understand the material.

I was internally driven and got all A's all through elementary school.  In the final quarter of my sixth grade year, my math teacher gave me a B.  I was DEVASTATED and knew I earned an A.  My mom scheduled a conference and he told her that I did indeed earn and A, but he gave me a B to teach me how to "fail" when it was low-stakes.  I was spitting mad at him for YEARS.  But do you know what I eventually learned?  The grades you get in 6th grade are really not going to significantly affect your future.

I hate this. Math is one of the few 100% objective subjects. And why does the teacher think it's his job to teach you to fail? I would have slapped the shit out of him.

[Frugal Lizard]

I have high expectation for my guys:  That they are respectful, curious and inquisitive.  I also have high expectation from the teachers that they are energetic, respectful and caring.  I want my kids to go to school and find it possible to learn stuff that they didn't know they be interested in.  Last year my son was studying Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew.  Grade 8 boys are not know for getting into Shakespeare but his teacher loves the Bard.  He came home everyday talking about this play for weeks. One of his favorite activities was insult day.  They each chose two cue cards with an insult on the them.  They spent the class insulting each other.  He appreciated the joy his teacher had in the material and had his eyes opened. My daughter loves science this year because her science teacher loves science.  I want my guys to be life long learners and if the love of learning is not cultivated, then school is not meeting my expectations.  I really could care less about the grades at this point.  I suppose when they move on to higher education those high school grades will matter.
I was one of those students who wasn't interested in the highest grade and could maintain a decent average with minimal effort in high school.  I put more effort into extra-curricular activities. At university, I was passionately interested in my subject of study and happily spent hours on assignments.  This translated into a medal for the highest grades and scholarships.  How has this helped my career?  Name recognition in my profession a bit but mostly it is the well developed work habits and the self improvement has made me what I am, not the 93% on chemistry final.

[ditheca]

Only 100%?  I was a good student, but whenever I aced a test my parents would always joke "Only 100?"

I did manage to surprise them with a 117% average in math class one year... but it was all in good fun.

My expectation are high for my kids, but they aren't set in stone, or at any arbitrary number.  I want them to work hard and learn from their mistakes. When they do that, success will come naturally.

[Helvegen]

As a counterpoint to this, I'll share my experience from the opposite perspective. My required writing class was the only class in my first year of college that I did not get an A in, despite a large effort on my part. All my other classes were honors math/science/engineering courses, with objective grading criteria. I was angry not as much out of a sense of failure, as that I missed an extra $500 that my uni gave to students who had a perfect GPA at the end of the year.

To this day I read regularly and can write just fine - concisely, and backed by facts. What I couldn't do was suck up to my writing adjunct in class discussions, aka parroting her liberal hogwash. I had absolutely no respect for a woman who, among other things,

• was obese, and still chose to bring in a bucket-sized iced coffee from Dunkin every class
• told us to read penises into the essays we analyzed

Heh.

I took a linguistics/anthropology course when I was working towards my degree. The anthropology professor made the absolute dumbest claim I have ever heard in person coming out of an academic's mouth. It was that because we call childbirth 'labor', it negatively charges the event of childbirth, making us think of toiling in the fields or some other backbreaking effort and that if we got away from this word, it would make us think more positively about it and have less pain and the actual reality of childbirth wouldn't real anymore and all other matter of BS. I, and pretty much no one else in the class, took her seriously after that.