Author Topic: Roth IRA for kid - earned money from selling art  (Read 2689 times)

firelight

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Roth IRA for kid - earned money from selling art
« on: December 08, 2021, 08:24:55 PM »
Hi all, my first grader has been learning painting from an artist and has been seriously painting ever since last year. She is very good for her age and recently sold one of her paintings to her friend's mom (for about $40). This resulted in more people buying her paintings and we now have about $335 that she has earned selling her paintings. I know we can just put it in savings but I'm toying with opening a Roth IRA for her.

I read about it online and from what I can understand, she can open one as long as she has earned income. I'm not sure how she would be classified - definitely not an employee, self employment? she doesn't do it as a business, so there is no LLC or anything. This is more a hobby that made money.

Questions:
1) how does this hobby income get classified for someone so young? self employed? or something else?
2) If self employed, I read online about a limit of $400 for filing taxes. Can she open the Roth IRA without filing taxes?
3) If this continues and she earns more than $400 next year, is there something (like LLC) we need to do to keep things clear on the legal/tax side of things?
4) Right now, we have a list of paintings sold and when and to whom for how much? It's a paper list. Anything else needed for record keeping? We didn't take it seriously till now but want to be better for next year.
5) Even though college is far away, would having a Roth IRA affect the kid's financial aid chances?

Is vanguard still the best place for kid Roth IRAs?

I'm excited for her enterprising spirit and want to encourage her. She doesn't care much about needing pocket money and doesn't explicitly ask for big toys, so the money she earned has been untouched.

I'm also super excited to get back some wall space since my walls don't have to hold all her paintings. :)

ETA:
Is there a limit for hobby income? I ask because we are not even sure if she'll continue at this pace (staying home from most activities due to COVID scare has led to lot of time spent painting and not swimming or gymnastics or playing sports with other kids). Can she earn past the $400 limit and still consider painting a hobby (which it is and will be till she grows older and chooses art even more seriously)?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 10:41:18 AM by firelight »


MDM

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Re: Roth IRA for kid - earned money from selling art
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2021, 01:37:21 AM »
1) You could call it self-employment for this year, thus justifying the Roth IRA contribution.  If she continues in subsequent years that only makes the self-employment case stronger.
2) Yes.  She needs "compensation" to justify the IRA contribution but if her earnings are below the filing requirement she does not have to file.
3) Just file and pay the SE tax.
4) That looks good.
5) Retirement accounts aren’t reported as assets on the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA)

Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard are all good.  You'll want to use the adjective "custodial" when discussing Roth IRAs with any of them.

Good luck to all of you!

secondcor521

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Re: Roth IRA for kid - earned money from selling art
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2021, 06:52:12 AM »
Congrats to your daughter on her success!

As to your questions, here's my take:

1.  Her age doesn't matter.

But she could consider it hobby income this year since that's how you describe it.  If she reports it as hobby income, it would go on Schedule 1 line 8 under Other income.  If your tax software allows it, you would want to mark it as earned income because it clearly is.

The other option is to consider it self employment income.  This would be reported on Schedule C.  She does not need a business structure, business name, or business location to file a Schedule C - she can be a sole proprietor under her own name, SSN, and personal address.  You will need to pick a six digit "business code", but just search the business codes for something that seems close - there'll be one in there for artist or something.

If she stops doing it after this year, then hobby income this year makes sense to me and is simpler to report.  If she continues next year and the business grows and she gets more serious, then self employment income makes more sense.  You could do hobby income this year then switch to self employment income in subsequent years, or you could just start out with self employment income this year to be consistent - I don't think it matters.

2.  Yes, she can open a Roth IRA without filing a tax return.  The $400 limit has to do with the fact that self employment income over $400 does incur self employment taxes, so if she makes more than $400 per year in net income from self employment, she would be required to file a tax return and she would have to pay self employment taxes.  The self employment taxes associated with a Schedule C are calculated on Schedule SE, which would also be filed with her tax return.

Even though she is not required to file a tax return in this situation, some people think it is a good idea to file a tax return showing the income in order to substantiate the Roth contribution.  Personally I don't think it is necessary as long as you keep the income records as you have to substantiate her Roth contribution.  But filing an optional return is reasonable and permissible if you wish to do so.

3.  You don't need a business structure.  She would need to file a tax return with a Schedule C and Schedule SE and pay the self employment taxes due.  See Chart C in the IRS Form 1040 instructions under "Who must file?"

4.  That sounds sufficient to me.  If you wanted to get more serious and possibly save a bit on taxes, as a self-employed individual she would be able to subtract her business expenses from her income.  Things like paint and canvases and paintbrushes and easels and painting smocks and business cards, and anything else that is ordinary and necessary for her business could be subtracted.  This would reduce her net income, which would reduce her SE taxes, and if it reduced her net income below $400, would mean she would not be required to file a return.

5.  MDM is correct that the FAFSA doesn't include retirement assets (either yours or your child's).  But not all schools are FAFSA schools - some use something called CSS Profile, which may look at retirement accounts, I don't recall offhand.  If your kid is going to your state university, then FAFSA is probably the one to look at; if she's going to Oberlin or the like, take a look at CSS Profile.

Vanguard was not very accommodating when I wanted to open custodial Roth IRAs for my three kids about five years ago.  They had account minimums that were in the $1K range, and the paperwork was a challenge IIRC.  Maybe they're better now.

My kids ended up at Schwab, which had $0 account minimums, were happy to open custodial Roth IRAs, and there was a local office which we went to to open the accounts.  We've all been pleased with how things have gone there.  Can't speak to Fidelity for custodial Roth IRAs, but I've had other accounts with them (currently my HSA and a Fidelity credit card) and they're very good.

firelight

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Re: Roth IRA for kid - earned money from selling art
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2021, 10:41:00 AM »
Thank you all!

Is there a limit for hobby income? I ask because we are not even sure if she'll continue at this pace (staying home from most activities due to COVID scare has led to lot of time spent painting and not swimming or gymnastics or playing sports with other kids). Can she earn past the $400 limit and still consider painting a hobby (which it is and will be till she grows older and chooses art even more seriously)?

I read online about hobby income vs business but nothing that relates to kids.

secondcor521

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Re: Roth IRA for kid - earned money from selling art
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2021, 10:53:56 AM »
Thank you all!

Is there a limit for hobby income? I ask because we are not even sure if she'll continue at this pace (staying home from most activities due to COVID scare has led to lot of time spent painting and not swimming or gymnastics or playing sports with other kids). Can she earn past the $400 limit and still consider painting a hobby (which it is and will be till she grows older and chooses art even more seriously)?

I read online about hobby income vs business but nothing that relates to kids.

There is no income limit for hobby income.  Yes, she can earn past the $400 limit and still consider it a hobby.

There is a list on the IRS site about nine questions to ask yourself to help determine whether it is hobby income or self employment income.  Here's the link:  https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tips-for-taxpayers-who-make-money-from-a-hobby.  What you/she should do is review those nine factors and follow whichever way they indicate.

The IRS doesn't care whether she is a kid or not, at least as far as hobby and self-employment income goes.

yachi

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Re: Roth IRA for kid - earned money from selling art
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2021, 08:17:13 AM »
Thank you all!

Is there a limit for hobby income? I ask because we are not even sure if she'll continue at this pace (staying home from most activities due to COVID scare has led to lot of time spent painting and not swimming or gymnastics or playing sports with other kids). Can she earn past the $400 limit and still consider painting a hobby (which it is and will be till she grows older and chooses art even more seriously)?

I read online about hobby income vs business but nothing that relates to kids.

There is no income limit for hobby income.  Yes, she can earn past the $400 limit and still consider it a hobby.

There is a list on the IRS site about nine questions to ask yourself to help determine whether it is hobby income or self employment income.  Here's the link:  https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tips-for-taxpayers-who-make-money-from-a-hobby.  What you/she should do is review those nine factors and follow whichever way they indicate.

The IRS doesn't care whether she is a kid or not, at least as far as hobby and self-employment income goes.

I think the focus is usually preventing folks from calling their hobby a money-losing business to get tax write-offs on their actual income.  I expect they likely wouldn't bat an eye at hobby income, even if high - maybe if its reoccurring for years and large enough to replace an income.