Author Topic: Return to School: Online or In Person?  (Read 7163 times)

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2020, 01:00:14 PM »
Lots of day cares and kid related businesses are coming up with day programs for remote students. They kind of have to. I imagine at least 50% of working families will need some amount of child care this school year, whether in home or outside.

Chrissy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Chicago
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2020, 04:46:34 PM »
Chicago, Illinois.  Husband and I have decided to believe the worst case scenario:  no treatment or vaccine for 2 years and rolling shutdowns that whole time.  Given that timeline, we went ahead and put our girls back into daycare, camp, etc., all of which have covid protocols in place.  Our 4 years old will start in-person parochial preschool shortly.

Our expectation is that the girls will get it and be sick, but ultimately recover.  We will get it, and be VERY sick, but recover.  My parents and Husband's parents absolutely cannot get this thing, so that's where we've put our focus.  We've curtailed our contact with them.

rosaz

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2020, 01:37:58 PM »
This is the advice I give to people considering sending their kids to in-person school this year:

"Make sure you can live with the results of your decision if your kids don't."

Does this go both ways, though? There's been a significant uptick in anxiety and depression symptoms among kids in lockdown, and we cannot take it as given that, once entrenched, these will magically disappear when they eventually go back to school. And these conditions can lower life expectancy by a decade plus. So when parents try to weigh the 1 in a... few hundred thousand?... chance their child will die of coronavirus, they should also consider the orders-of-magnitude higher chance of their kid dying young due to the knock-on effects of prolonged isolation. Even if they lose only 10 years rather than 70, if there's even a hundredfold greater chance, isolation could still be the losing bet. Particularly if their kid is already showing symptoms.

Maybe that all sounds overdramatic, but I watched my kid cry every single day during remote learning. And no, it wasn't just coronavirus anxiety; she wasn't like that the first month before the school rolled anything out, and she wasn't like that during the summer, which she spent at home, but making art, cooking, reading, etc. But when she was sitting in front of a computer for 6 hours a day, doing work that felt isolating and meaningless, without learning anything, she was a mess. And even if there are no long-term effects (and there may well be) how do you weigh the almost-certainty of another year spent in misery, against the one-in-a-million chance of losing 70 years?

Everything we do in life has risks. Sending your kid to school or a friend's house in normal times carries a risk of them dying in a car accident (in the car or out of it) that is far higher than the risk of them dying of coronavirus. But if a parent refused to let their kid have any normal experiences due to incredibly small risks in other circumstances, we would rightfully consider that paranoia and clearly not in the best interests of the child. What changed?

Christof

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 659
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Germany
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2020, 03:56:42 PM »
This is the advice I give to people considering sending their kids to in-person school this year:

"Make sure you can live with the results of your decision if your kids don't."

This is really unsensible.... In Germany we do not have a choice of whether we send our kids to school. Please do not give advice on an international forum if your point of reference is only the US.

okits

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10436
  • Location: Canada
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2020, 04:05:31 PM »
This is the advice I give to people considering sending their kids to in-person school this year:

"Make sure you can live with the results of your decision if your kids don't."

Does this go both ways, though?

It goes in all ways.  I have to live with the results of letting my kid eat that piece of birthday cake today.  I have to live with the results of letting my kid not attend an early French immersion program.  I have to live with the results of us taking the car somewhere instead of public transit.  I have to live with the results of letting my kid play at the playground.  On it goes.

I'm not entirely sure how to take that post from SwordGuy, whose many posts on this forum I have generally found to be extremely reasonable and insightful.  Our assessment of our local situation is that the physical and mental health benefits of school outweigh the harm of potential COVID exposure.  Particularly now, when local infection rates are very low and it's possible for students to spend a lot of time outside.  Our decision may change as the situation changes.  All options are open to us, our assessment is that right now, returning to school is the best one.

9patch

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2020, 03:18:52 PM »
We decided in June to put our son in virtual school for next year (k12.com), because my husband has ALS, and we don't want our son to bring the virus home. Now, they've announced at our school district in Oregon that there will be 2 options, hybrid (2 cohorts), or fully virtual. But the hybrid one will start the year out as virtual and will re-evaluate in Nov. But we are committed to virtual for the whole year. I've been WFH since March and will likely continue to do so for a long time. But I really miss interacting with people in person. It's kind of a nightmare to WFH full time while home schooling.

Fru-Gal

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2020, 04:04:45 PM »
It is our responsibility as parents to model for our children how to deal with a pandemic where we must work together to defeat a virus. It is highly unlikely that mental illness is on the rise after 3-5 months of no in-person school. Institutional school itself presents a variety of difficult situations such as violence, bullying, drug use, peer pressure, stress... Recessions may be associated with mental illness, but not always. Further, any recession factors in play here can only be solved by limiting the pandemic. Extending the pandemic is not a solution.

In the US, we have not experienced, for the most part, the highly isolated lockdowns seen in parts of Europe and Asia. We are able to go outside for exercise, to shop, to do a myriad of activities. If our children are bored or isolated, we must help them find strategies to fix those problems, knowing the limitations on in-person gatherings. Again, what kind of parents are we, and what are we modeling for our children, if our only response to this pandemic is to complain about how limiting it is?

Life is full of learning opportunities. This is one of them.

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2020, 06:29:25 PM »
It is our responsibility as parents to model for our children how to deal with a pandemic where we must work together to defeat a virus. It is highly unlikely that mental illness is on the rise after 3-5 months of no in-person school. Institutional school itself presents a variety of difficult situations such as violence, bullying, drug use, peer pressure, stress... Recessions may be associated with mental illness, but not always. Further, any recession factors in play here can only be solved by limiting the pandemic. Extending the pandemic is not a solution.

In the US, we have not experienced, for the most part, the highly isolated lockdowns seen in parts of Europe and Asia. We are able to go outside for exercise, to shop, to do a myriad of activities. If our children are bored or isolated, we must help them find strategies to fix those problems, knowing the limitations on in-person gatherings. Again, what kind of parents are we, and what are we modeling for our children, if our only response to this pandemic is to complain about how limiting it is?

Life is full of learning opportunities. This is one of them.

This is an odd and judgmental post. Very low infection rate in my area and schools are reopening whether you approve or not.  Are you suggesting that we should go to an isolated lockdown for no reason but model something?

Fru-Gal

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2020, 07:09:04 PM »
Absolutely not, if there is no lockdown in your area and in-person school is happening, please take no offense as this POV obviously does not apply to you. It applies in my situation in a county where infection is rising and my kids' school will be remote for possibly the entire academic year, however.

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2020, 07:34:13 PM »
Absolutely not, if there is no lockdown in your area and in-person school is happening, please take no offense as this POV obviously does not apply to you. It applies in my situation in a county where infection is rising and my kids' school will be remote for possibly the entire academic year, however.

That wasn't not clear from the post.  It's really time to stop making sweeping generalizations about how all parents should act if we want to make helpful recommendations.

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
  • Displaying your outrage accomplishes nothing.
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2020, 07:59:49 PM »
Our kids go to private and will start school n person with several safety protocols in place. I do not expect a working vaccine in the foreseeable future, nor do I expect universal acceptance of a vaccine if one is developed, nor do I expect the political leadership (Federal, state, or local) to show any previously unseen competence. So to summarize, I think we’re good and screwed. All the choices are varying degrees of bad. I do think that the leadership at our kids school does have a clue and has put a good deal of thought into how they’ll make this work. So it’s the least worst bad choice for us.

Michael in ABQ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1091
    • Military Saints
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2020, 09:03:26 PM »
Our kids returned to their first day of school yesterday at a relatively small Catholic school. I've been away for almost a year deployed but my wife and kids have been self-quarantining since March. The only exception has been her parents who were also in self-quarantine with them. So for five months they've had no one to play with or interact with but each other. My wife said she noticed an immediate positive change in their attitude yesterday evening after school. The negative behaviors built up during months of isolation (basically getting on each other's nerves) were gone and in place was the happy and nice behavior that used to exist. They were all excited to see friends again and return to some level of normalcy.

Our whole metro area of about 800,000 is experiencing around 50 new cases a day. The odds that one of the 100 or so students or staff, or even their immediate family members, will get sick and bring COVID to the school is quite small. It's a risk we're willing to take now that we will no longer by seeing my in-laws. They're in their 70s and will continue to self-quarantine, likely until a vaccine is developed. For the rest of us, we're not going to just sit at home for the next six months waiting for a vaccine.

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2020, 09:44:36 PM »
We start tomorrow - and enrollment is up so much from people moving to our resort town that they've called in my wife as a temporary 4th grade teacher. Hopefully temporary, that is.

I did find it a bit hilarious to be at soccer tonight (we coach, well, everything) and hear moms of first graders discussing whether or not they were sending their kids to in person school... while those same kids were clustered in a tight bunch frantically kicking the ball. Think you've already made the decision there, really.

I think it'll go fine.

-W
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 09:51:33 PM by waltworks »

LiveLean

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 806
  • Location: Central Florida
    • ToLiveLean
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2020, 11:27:08 AM »
Tampa, Florida area. Heading back to in-person school Monday.

1. Millions of parents have been sending their kids to summer camps and daycares for months. But school is reason for concern?

2. Millions of kids who play year-round competitive sports have been training together for months. But now we're going to worry about high school sports? My son's club swim team has been practicing six days a week since early May. His club team overlaps by 90 percent with the high school team, which swims from the start of school until late October. They swim at the same pool. The only difference is that they wear different swim caps for high school season. But once high school season starts next week, we have to sign additional COVID release forms to train at the same pool at the same time with the same people they've been training with since early May.

The vaccine isn't coming any time soon. Rates are droping. Risk is minimal for kids (and, yes, I have an 81-year-old dad with emphysema, so I'm not insentiive to the kids-are-carriers argument).

But at a certain point -- almost six months now -- it's time to ignore the fear porn and get back to life.


waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2020, 11:34:48 AM »
2 week in-person update - things are (so far, at our elementary school) going great! Kids are happy, wearing their masks and doing a great job distancing, parents are generally happy (though complaining about the long line of cars at pickup, as usual), and teachers are pretty happy, though we have a huge surge of new kids and some are having to fill in in classes they don't usually teach until more teachers can be hired.

So far so good. But the real test will come in a few months when flu/cold/etc season hits.

-W

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
  • Displaying your outrage accomplishes nothing.
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2020, 12:34:51 PM »
2 week in-person update - things are (so far, at our elementary school) going great! Kids are happy, wearing their masks and doing a great job distancing, parents are generally happy (though complaining about the long line of cars at pickup, as usual), and teachers are pretty happy, though we have a huge surge of new kids and some are having to fill in in classes they don't usually teach until more teachers can be hired.

So far so good. But the real test will come in a few months when flu/cold/etc season hits.

-W
Our in person schooling started as well. So far, so good. I got my flu shot already, the kids will get it soon. We’ll do what we can to mitigate the risk, but self-incarceration isn’t one of the options. Knee-jerk avoidance of all risk is not risk management.

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2020, 12:56:00 PM »
Yes, I find it interesting that we have a small minority of parents (10%) that kept their kids home/remote (which is offered by the district) but people who are opposed to in person school are vehement that "the community does not support this". I mean, it looks to me like 90% of the community does, actually.

We have a bit of a loose cannon/unfiltered president of the school board, which is sometimes bad and sometimes good, but he basically said that the board considers in-person education one of the most essential services that allows the community to function in the present and thrive in the future, and that going remote again is a last resort. He pointed out that 4 times as many people died skiing this year here (4) than died from Covid (1), for which he has caught quite a bit of flack. But it's a good point, though of course ski wrecks aren't communicable diseases.

I see the biggest potential problems at the high school, which is much more crowded, and also has kids more likely to get and spread Covid. We'll see.

-W

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
  • Displaying your outrage accomplishes nothing.
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2020, 02:40:06 PM »
Yes, I find it interesting that we have a small minority of parents (10%) that kept their kids home/remote (which is offered by the district) but people who are opposed to in person school are vehement that "the community does not support this". I mean, it looks to me like 90% of the community does, actually.

We have a bit of a loose cannon/unfiltered president of the school board, which is sometimes bad and sometimes good, but he basically said that the board considers in-person education one of the most essential services that allows the community to function in the present and thrive in the future, and that going remote again is a last resort. He pointed out that 4 times as many people died skiing this year here (4) than died from Covid (1), for which he has caught quite a bit of flack. But it's a good point, though of course ski wrecks aren't communicable diseases.

I see the biggest potential problems at the high school, which is much more crowded, and also has kids more likely to get and spread Covid. We'll see.

-W

It's that way on a lot of issues.  A very loud minority decries something or someone, but when it comes time for people to commit with their money or their feet, you see which way the wind is really blowing.   

StarBright

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1769
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2020, 09:09:26 AM »
Our kids started back last week - 4 days a week in person school, Mondays home learning for "deep cleaning" of school.

I've mentioned this a bit on other threads, but we had originally opted for the virtual learning. It ended up being rolled out so poorly that we switched to in-person a couple of days before it started (we originally had a 5 day window to make the switch).

I live in a community that seems to be strongly anti-mask (or at least the anti mask people are super vocal) and the virtual option felt punitive. They were very up front about all the rules they had put in place to make sure you were educating your child, such as the district hiring people to check on the parents several times a day, time keeping software that timed out if the mouse didn't move every 4 minutes, the requirement to log 5 hours of learning a day, etc.

But the virtual option did not include any actual teachers or in-person instruction, just videos and web forms, and they still hadn't sent us any log in information by the actual day school started.

The virtual roll out was so bad that they shut it back down for a week.

High school has been back in session two weeks, Elementary one week. We've had 7 district employees and 15 students test positive and I think they just said  40+ in quarantine as of Friday.

I'm actually concerned that this is starting to really hurt my community. We had a parent complain to a news station that the promised 4 foot distancing was non-existent in the lower schools. And that parent started getting "snitch" threats on facebook. What a frickin' world.

FWIW- I think the teachers are absolutely doing the best they can with what they have, but we really wish we had been able to stick with the virtual school (which wasn't possible for working parents).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 09:11:39 AM by StarBright »

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2020, 03:41:23 PM »
Our kids started back last week - 4 days a week in person school, Mondays home learning for "deep cleaning" of school.

I've mentioned this a bit on other threads, but we had originally opted for the virtual learning. It ended up being rolled out so poorly that we switched to in-person a couple of days before it started (we originally had a 5 day window to make the switch).

I live in a community that seems to be strongly anti-mask (or at least the anti mask people are super vocal) and the virtual option felt punitive. They were very up front about all the rules they had put in place to make sure you were educating your child, such as the district hiring people to check on the parents several times a day, time keeping software that timed out if the mouse didn't move every 4 minutes, the requirement to log 5 hours of learning a day, etc.

But the virtual option did not include any actual teachers or in-person instruction, just videos and web forms, and they still hadn't sent us any log in information by the actual day school started.

The virtual roll out was so bad that they shut it back down for a week.

High school has been back in session two weeks, Elementary one week. We've had 7 district employees and 15 students test positive and I think they just said  40+ in quarantine as of Friday.

I'm actually concerned that this is starting to really hurt my community. We had a parent complain to a news station that the promised 4 foot distancing was non-existent in the lower schools. And that parent started getting "snitch" threats on facebook. What a frickin' world.

FWIW- I think the teachers are absolutely doing the best they can with what they have, but we really wish we had been able to stick with the virtual school (which wasn't possible for working parents).

Our kids are all virtual and I am confident that we would not be able to do it if those were the requirements.  It's not possible to work and monitor mouse movement, timing out, etc.  Luckily, in our district, the teachers will count the completion of work as attendance, whether it's "live" or done on our own schedule.

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
  • Displaying your outrage accomplishes nothing.
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2020, 03:49:41 PM »
This “virtual” schooling looks like homeschooling, but with more hassle. Yeah, you get the curriculum for free, but those aren’t that expensive anyway.

It sucks that some of the public schools are botching it on the in-person schooling. At some point the parents who can afford to take their kids out, will.

chemistk

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 698
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2020, 05:59:51 AM »
Our district starts tomorrow, but Kindergarten's first day is Wednesday - so far so good locally. We haven't heard any reports of teachers or other school staff testing positive or being quarantined despite them having been at school sine last week preparing.

Some districts in my region have had positive tests from employees and teachers, and a couple students, but not nearly enough to really feel concerned. Time will tell.

High school football (and most fall sports) were strongly urged to cancel the season, but football will continue as many of the schools feel like it's important to have the football season. Some schools are opting out of football so it's going to make for a strange season.

Perhaps most interestingly, we learned that my wife's youngest siblings (who have autism) will be going to in-person school even if schools close and/or our state returns to a lockdown. The district's logic is that special needs students' IEP's would basically need to be crumpled up and burned in the trash if they were forced to send kids home in the middle of the semester. The only way the special needs kids would be kept home is if their classroom has an outbreak and then after two weeks, they would still return to class.

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2020, 09:02:26 AM »
That makes sense to me. The harm to a special needs kid missing school is significant.

Hell, the harm to younger kids as a group is significant. Elementary schools should be the *last* places to close, and then only if the adult staff are all getting sick or something. My wife is as we speak serving as an emergency 5th grade teacher while the district works to hire more teachers at our school. Neighbors are helping me with child care for our 1 year old. The whole community understands the stakes here.

I could see most high school kids being fine doing remote, though. I'm a little surprised more districts haven't done HS remote and used the extra space/teachers to spread out the in person elementary kids. I know here they have said that the high school having to close will not necessarily mean the elementary schools have to.

-W

meerkat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3934
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2020, 09:54:15 AM »
I'm a little surprised more districts haven't done HS remote and used the extra space/teachers to spread out the in person elementary kids.

In my area (Florida) I think they don't have enough computers to go around for that kind of set up. There's a blend of in person and online schooling, but even with that I've heard that computers are going to be thin on the ground in schools since they're having to provide so many to students who are working remotely (and they're not providing them to every single student who is working remotely, just the ones who need them).

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2020, 04:14:41 PM »
I LOL'd at mentioning (and hence, presumably going and looking up) the AR level of a Harry Potter book.

It sounds like your son should just take the fall off from school, honestly. Unless your goal is just to make you both miserable. That's what we did with our (also, just like every freaking kid on this forum, "gifted") 6 and 8 year olds.

Opening colleges in person and not elementary schools is brutally stupid. Best of luck.

-W

StarBright

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1769
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2020, 04:34:27 PM »
I LOL'd at mentioning (and hence, presumably going and looking up) the AR level of a Harry Potter book.

It sounds like your son should just take the fall off from school, honestly. Unless your goal is just to make you both miserable. That's what we did with our (also, just like every freaking kid on this forum, "gifted") 6 and 8 year olds.

Opening colleges in person and not elementary schools is brutally stupid. Best of luck.

-W

LOL- I always notice your posts where you use quotation marks around gifted. But is it so shocking that in a forum full of financial outliers and outside the box thinkers there would be a disproportionate amount of gifted children?

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2020, 04:54:04 PM »
I just think it's funny that people here constantly have to mention it.

I also grew up around a lot of kids (Los Alamos NM) where what passes for gifted here was decidedly average. That was a very good thing for me, since it helped me learn early on that once you get to the point where you're actually generating new/interesting knowledge (ie grad school/postdoc), everyone is basically as clever as you, so if you want to do well, you have to work hard and try lots of weird interesting things so you've got a broad base to generate new ideas. So we do our best to keep our kids away from the idea that being smart is a big deal.

But I digress. Get the paperwork for homeschool and give your kid a big project (read every book in the library about the Pacific theater in WWII and write a big report or something along those lines). Memorizing math he already knows is a net negative for both of you and it sounds like he can pass the state standards tests at the end of the year without trouble even if you do no formal "school" at all.

-W

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2020, 05:16:12 PM »
I have two children of very different levels of skill, one who read at a high school level in 4th grade and one who barely reads at last year's grade level.  So I don't have much sympathy for parents who are worried about their gifted kids getting bored.  It sucks to deal with as working parents, totally, but they will be fine.  It's a completely different ball game to be worried about a struggling young student who also has no patience for online learning.  I'm lucky because I could hire a tutor, etc.  Now imagine all of the other parents dealing with the same issue who are struggling to make ends meet and scramble for child care.  Let's not quibble over what's gifted or not and recognize that there are large populations of special needs students and students in poverty who will be significantly harmed by what's happening right now.  And by public education in general.

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2020, 05:33:00 PM »
Indeed. If you care about social equity at all, keeping elementary schools open and functioning should be priority #1.

-W

ixtap

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2435
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2020, 05:51:46 PM »
Indeed. If you care about social equity at all, keeping elementary schools open and functioning should be priority #1.

-W

Evidently, bars and gyms are a higher priority.

marbles4

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 228
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #80 on: September 01, 2020, 08:38:13 PM »

- Remote learning for my 3rd grader who is 8 sucks monkey balls.  He just does not pay attention.  It's partly him (I mean, he's 8).  He needs in person school OR what he has now, which is his mother sitting next to him, taking away the little toys he's playing with, forcing him to focus on school work every single minute.

This. Just substitute 1st grade for 3rd.

Apparently our district has decided that despite kindergarten math last Spring consisting of having the kids be able to recognize shapes and compare lengths, the expectation for the third week of first grade math is that these same kids will be solving equations like 8 + ? = 14. On an iPad. On which they don't yet have the reading skills to read the word problems.

Unsurprisingly, it's not going well.

Fru-Gal

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2020, 10:58:01 PM »
Serious question: What is the harm of nobody (child, college student) getting any "book learning" done for the next year?

Arian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2020, 05:02:58 AM »
Serious question: What is the harm of nobody (child, college student) getting any "book learning" done for the next year?

This!

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2020, 05:38:05 AM »
Serious question: What is the harm of nobody (child, college student) getting any "book learning" done for the next year?

This!

That's not what's happening. There are plenty of students who are getting book learning this year, possibly better, more individual learning if their families are somewhat affluent (plus private and wealthier suburban students).

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8193
  • Location: United States
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2020, 06:49:17 AM »
Serious question: What is the harm of nobody (child, college student) getting any "book learning" done for the next year?

The people who have no access to "book learning" are likely to regress, and will clearly not advance, academically, which will make them less competitive both in the national and international sense, which is likely to hurt their future earnings potential, as well as the competitiveness of any nation that makes this decision as a whole, since "nobody" isn't happening, it would only be certain individuals.

Maybe if someone spent this time learning a great trade, the lack of traditional school would not be a problem, but it's not "all students left behind" it is very much an equity issue of who is being left behind.

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2020, 07:44:00 AM »
MMM forum members/Lake Wobegon kids are fine. Remember, they're all above average.

Kids who are struggling to learn to read will end up illiterate. Kids who depend on school for 2 or 3 of their daily meals will go hungry. Kids whose parent beats them won't be noticed by their teacher or school counselor and nobody will intervene.

Honestly, even asking that question is pretty revealing about the bubbles some of us live in.

-W

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2020, 08:05:17 AM »
Also wealthier classes of families will never allow for the chance that their kids could fall behind.  Many such families are also against the equitable funding of all school districts, ie, higher taxes= access to better education, and that's the way they want to keep it.

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2020, 08:11:21 AM »
It's ok, though. We all got "we believe" yard signs.

-W

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16547
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2020, 08:20:33 AM »
Serious question: What is the harm of nobody (child, college student) getting any "book learning" done for the next year?

Learning is a long, slow accumulation.  It doesn't happen all at once, and it's built upon previous successes.  The ability to learn in a school setting (for better or worse - and that's a whole other topic of discussion) is an important part of education.

Each time a student takes a break from studies, they regress.  The ability to learn in a school setting is actually lessened.  This is a well known phenomenon and is visible in student returning from summer vacation.  It's more significant the younger the child is.

For many kids, taking a year off from school would be a little set back and they'd be able to catch up and get back on track . . . but for a significant minority (especially those under grade 5) I suspect that it would be detrimental to their long term education.  As has been mentioned, rich families have the means to see that their kids are OK . . . so it will manifest as a bigger issue with poorer children - eventually causing an increase to the wealth/race gap.

Fru-Gal

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #89 on: September 02, 2020, 11:12:03 AM »
I believe it's a sign of the times that asking a question results in an ad hominem. The responses are about what I expected.

If *everyone* is behind, no one is behind. Yes the Tiger Parents will require feats of athletic prowess. Yes the poor (for whom we were doing so very much before /s) will be affected.

Interestingly, in my district the school cafeteria program has been feeding 10s of thousands of students and families since April. It's a lovely thing, a genuine pivot to a helpful action. We also distributed hotspots and Chrome books. I'm seeing *more* equity in terms of accessibility to staff, principals, etc. via Zoom.

waltworks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4253
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2020, 11:16:56 AM »
Nice try. We gave everyone laptops too, last spring. Guess what? Lots of poor kids didn't have internet access. Or parents to help them out/make sure they do their schoolwork.

I mean, we already know what has happened:
https://www.yahoo.com/now/remote-school-in-the-fall-will-hurt-lowincome-students-the-most-152333355.html

Your comment was thoughtless. I mean, it really was. We might not have been doing great at helping poor kids before, but we're making it worse now, and saying "how much harm will come from a year of no book learning" is just... it's just an awful thing to say. Period.

-W

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2020, 11:46:42 AM »
Everyone is not and will not be behind. We know this, we are seeing it unfold in real time.

We are also giving out food and chromebooks in my district. It doesn't make things close to equitable. I'm hearing from high school teachers that their kids frequently picked up more working hours during "school" this spring to help their families.

The poor urban district can't open mainly because it doesn't have any money to do it safely (update ventilation, space out, hire more staff, transportation, heck, it could barely afford to clean as it was). 

All these things the surrounding suburban districts can and are doing to host in person elementary school children for mostly 5-days a week.  Our community covid numbers are very low.  This is straight up - less money = less learning.

A lot of people find this perfectly ok, even preferable, but often wrap it up in the "I care more about my child's education" line of reasoning.

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8193
  • Location: United States
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2020, 11:48:06 AM »
I believe it's a sign of the times that asking a question results in an ad hominem. The responses are about what I expected.

If *everyone* is behind, no one is behind. Yes the Tiger Parents will require feats of athletic prowess. Yes the poor (for whom we were doing so very much before /s) will be affected.

Interestingly, in my district the school cafeteria program has been feeding 10s of thousands of students and families since April. It's a lovely thing, a genuine pivot to a helpful action. We also distributed hotspots and Chrome books. I'm seeing *more* equity in terms of accessibility to staff, principals, etc. via Zoom.

But NOT everyone will be behind.
How will you stop other countries from allowing their students to advance while ours take the year off?
How do you prevent those with means from getting private tutors, or be homeschooled, so that they don't "everyone" is behind?  It won't happen.  A very targeted segment of the population is who will be behind.

If your school district distributed hot spots to all students, that is phenomenal. That was not universal. 
Our public library has a line of kids sitting outside most days so students can access the wifi that was extended to the parking lot.  (Our kids are 75% in person, 25% virtual.)  The kids want to learn.  They don't want a year off.  What do you expect them to do for a year?

Fru-Gal

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #93 on: September 02, 2020, 12:02:50 PM »
Have a nice day.

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #94 on: September 02, 2020, 12:18:25 PM »
Have a nice day.

I'm curious as to why you feel attacked by this disagreement?

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
  • Displaying your outrage accomplishes nothing.
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2020, 02:12:44 PM »
Serious question: What is the harm of nobody (child, college student) getting any "book learning" done for the next year?

Serious answer: it screws over the kids who didn’t get any “book learning” relative to those that did. Because you see the parents who can afford it will put their kids into private schools and get their education just the same. Unless we’re proposing some sort of authoritarian measures to shut down all schools and prevent homeschooling.

marbles4

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 228
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2020, 04:34:43 PM »
Serious question: What is the harm of nobody (child, college student) getting any "book learning" done for the next year?

I have to confess that I don't follow the question.

Where I live, compulsory attendance applies to school-age kids as long as they are enrolled in public school, which mine are (as I have no interest in homeschooling them or paying for private school).

Public schools in our district are 100% doing remote learning this year. Ergo ....

In other words, what should they do? Nothing? And if so, for how long?

mbl

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2020, 03:42:11 PM »
 
Quote
It's really time to stop making sweeping generalizations about how all parents should act if we want to make helpful recommendations.

I have two children of very different levels of skill, one who read at a high school level in 4th grade and one who barely reads at last year's grade level.  So I don't have much sympathy for parents who are worried about their gifted kids getting bored. It sucks to deal with as working parents, totally, but they will be fine. 

It's a completely different ball game to be worried about a struggling young student who also has no patience for online learning.  I'm lucky because I could hire a tutor, etc.  Now imagine all of the other parents dealing with the same issue who are struggling to make ends meet and scramble for child care.  Let's not quibble over what's gifted or not and recognize that there are large populations of special needs students and students in poverty who will be significantly harmed by what's happening right now.  And by public education in general.

I read these two posts from you and thought that there was a bit of a contradiction there or at best a mean spirited response to a parent who has a concern for their kid.   Who are you to qualify someone's viewpoint for their particular kid and decide that it has a lower value?  They are different issues but valid nonetheless.  And that parent's worries don't invalidate other kids with different challenges.  Everyone has fears and worries about going back to school.  No one is less deserving of their feelings than anyone else.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 03:45:47 PM by mbl »

Longwaytogo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1885
  • Age: 40
  • Location: One Particular Harbor
  • Wherever you go; there you are!
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2020, 05:23:27 PM »
I have two children of very different levels of skill, one who read at a high school level in 4th grade and one who barely reads at last year's grade level. So I don't have much sympathy for parents who are worried about their gifted kids getting bored.  It sucks to deal with as working parents, totally, but they will be fine.  It's a completely different ball game to be worried about a struggling young student who also has no patience for online learning.  I'm lucky because I could hire a tutor, etc.  Now imagine all of the other parents dealing with the same issue who are struggling to make ends meet and scramble for child care.  Let's not quibble over what's gifted or not and recognize that there are large populations of special needs students and students in poverty who will be significantly harmed by what's happening right now.  And by public education in general.

Anecdotal evidence from my families first week of BULLSHIT virtual learning-

My "gifted" 8 year old is losing her shit and saying she hates school and doesn't want to do it and is very very bored. (VS allows for little/no enrichment which she's been used to her whole life)

My more middle of the road or even occasionally below grade level 10 year old is really proud of herself for doing well so far and helping other kids out in their small group breakouts.

Of course they are just doing reviews from last year mostly so we'll see when new material is introduced, the roles may well reverse

Meanwhile my 9 year old nephew threw his laptop yesterday and said he was going to run away and live in the woods before he'd do any more virtual school.....

So yeah, off to a bangup start :(

----------

I was somewhat indifferent about Virtual school vs in person school this Summer; and figured we would be virtual anyway as our county is pretty liberal (see feud with MD governor and Trump over trying to ban private schools from opening as well) but a week in I'm already wishing they were back in person.

The polls this Summer to parents were almost an exact 50/50 split; but of course not equitable in each school. My wife was part of only 20% of staff that said she would go back.

About half the people I know have their children in learning "pods" with 6-12 other students and staff during the day with little to no PPE. I'm starting up coaching youth softball again 5 days a week. I don't know, school doesn't seem that much riskier. I get it's large numbers but with mask, spacing, less classroom shuffling, etc. it seems it would be better then what we have now.
-----------

February 1st is a looooooong ways off from where I sit today; and no guarantee they'll even go back then.

I don't know. It's frustrating. I just feel so bad for the kids :(

charis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2029
Re: Return to School: Online or In Person?
« Reply #99 on: September 03, 2020, 06:05:24 PM »
Quote
It's really time to stop making sweeping generalizations about how all parents should act if we want to make helpful recommendations.

I have two children of very different levels of skill, one who read at a high school level in 4th grade and one who barely reads at last year's grade level.  So I don't have much sympathy for parents who are worried about their gifted kids getting bored. It sucks to deal with as working parents, totally, but they will be fine. 

It's a completely different ball game to be worried about a struggling young student who also has no patience for online learning.  I'm lucky because I could hire a tutor, etc.  Now imagine all of the other parents dealing with the same issue who are struggling to make ends meet and scramble for child care.  Let's not quibble over what's gifted or not and recognize that there are large populations of special needs students and students in poverty who will be significantly harmed by what's happening right now.  And by public education in general.

I read these two posts from you and thought that there was a bit of a contradiction there or at best a mean spirited response to a parent who has a concern for their kid.   Who are you to qualify someone's viewpoint for their particular kid and decide that it has a lower value?  They are different issues but valid nonetheless.  And that parent's worries don't invalidate other kids with different challenges.  Everyone has fears and worries about going back to school.  No one is less deserving of their feelings than anyone else.

I think my comments were fairly measured. Not invalidated anyone's feelings.  I said it really sucks, but having dealt with both situations simultaneously, it's harder to deal with a bored child who was already struggling academically than a bored child who is well ahead of grade level. So I personally have less sympathy for the latter situation. You cut out the post I was responding to above so to that's a bit disingenuous.