Please Audit Your Kids' Social Media

[malacca]

When my daughter was 11 or 12 I tired to make her a Facebook account - only to find out she was too young.

So I made her an Instagram account. Now, I had used Instagram way back when - before Facebook bought it. It was for sharing pictures. Really.

But it evolved into something much more. It turns out Facebook doesn't want children on Facebook as their parents can see what they are doing and seeing (I know a Facebook exec). So they don't allow younger kids on Facebook - but allow them on Instagram.

Anyway, my daughter's behavior started to change and she was moody (which she has never been). So I decided to do a social media audit. I sat down with her and went through the feeds. I was absolutely STUNNED at the content that was fed to a 12 year old. This is stuff I don't want to see.

Besides everything being sexually suggestive, there was one security video of a guy walking up to another guy in the street in the Philippines and shooting him in the head. This is not content for anyone - much less a 12 year old. You can't unsee this shit.

So I asked my daughter if this was age appropriate for her and she said "No way".

So she stopped Instagram (it took a month or so as she would peek back in to see who messaged her).

If you wonder why mental illness is another pandemic, this is a huge factor.

When you sing up for these platforms, you are the product, not the customer. Beware.

[Dicey]

Thank you for sharing this. That's good parenting right there.

[Michael in ABQ]

And this is why our kids don't have phones, don't have a personal computer, and only have access to the internet for very limited occasions on one of our laptops in a common area of the house. Our oldest is 14 and none of them have ever had social media accounts, nor will they have them as long as we can control it.

[malacca]

Well, I think there is a lot of great stuff on the internet and it has its place in society - especially children. So cutting kids off too much may do more harm than good.

Of course the question is: How much?

My kids have had iPhone hand me downs from a young age. But they use them as they should be used - mainly for communicating. They have a few simple games on them they can use when we are stuck somewhere with nothing to do.

They also each have hand me down MacBooks. Again, they use them the way they are supposed to. Maybe my kids are different.

And they have an iPad from school (they get them in 3rd grade onwards). Now the school has restricted what the iPad can be used for.

And currently, no social media.

[JupiterGreen]

When my daughter was 11 or 12 I tired to make her a Facebook account - only to find out she was too young.

So I made her an Instagram account. Now, I had used Instagram way back when - before Facebook bought it. It was for sharing pictures. Really.

But it evolved into something much more. It turns out Facebook doesn't want children on Facebook as their parents can see what they are doing and seeing (I know a Facebook exec). So they don't allow younger kids on Facebook - but allow them on Instagram.

Anyway, my daughter's behavior started to change and she was moody (which she has never been). So I decided to do a social media audit. I sat down with her and went through the feeds. I was absolutely STUNNED at the content that was fed to a 12 year old. This is stuff I don't want to see.

Besides everything being sexually suggestive, there was one security video of a guy walking up to another guy in the street in the Philippines and shooting him in the head. This is not content for anyone - much less a 12 year old. You can't unsee this shit.

So I asked my daughter if this was age appropriate for her and she said "No way".

So she stopped Instagram (it took a month or so as she would peek back in to see who messaged her).

If you wonder why mental illness is another pandemic, this is a huge factor.

When you sing up for these platforms, you are the product, not the customer. Beware.

Holy Helicopter! I would be traumatized if that came up in my feed, wow. Great advice OP.

[pressure9pa]

Similar story here.  I won't go into detail, but I also noticed that my 7th grade daughter was becoming a different person - beyond just being a moody teen.  After a long and painful audit of her social media account, she lost her phone and after a summer evolved back into a cheerful, generally happy kid.  She's earned her phone back, but doesn't want it. 

[rothwem]

And this is why our kids don't have phones, don't have a personal computer, and only have access to the internet for very limited occasions on one of our laptops in a common area of the house. Our oldest is 14 and none of them have ever had social media accounts, nor will they have them as long as we can control it.

I worry about the cold turkey approach--you can't shelter your kids forever.  I'm a millennial, Facebook was invented when I was in college and internet speeds really sucked when I was growing up so nobody except for dorks were commonly using the internet, so my generation had a similar upbringing to what your kids are going to experience. However, people of my age and generation are addicted to social media.

I'm not sure how you teach moderation with social media, but I think that self-regulation is important, just like with eating or spending money. 

[Metalcat]

It's pretty well established that social media is terrible for mental health.

I don't have kids, but if I did, I would absolutely try an maintain a constant open dialogue about social media. I would at very least proactively stay abreast of what kids in general are experiencing on it, and what risks are there.

I saw an awesome video of moms who *thought* they knew what their daughters were doing on social media. The video makers created deepfakes of the moms saying the things their daughters were seeing on Instagram and the moms were traumatized to see themselves telling their daughters horrible, toxic shit about their bodies and what they should be doing to them.

The moms were talking to their kids, they thought they were doing everything right, but they weren't actually staying abreast of the reality of the world their kid was living in, so they were too ignorant to engage them effectively.

I've personally never used instagram, I tried once and found it confusing. I've never used twitter, and only use FB because I'm an online student and that's where my classmates are.

Still, because I'm training in clinical psychology, I read and research thoroughly what the social media experience is like, because I can't afford to stay ignorant of its risks and impacts, especially since I might specialize in working with teens.

The thing that's hard for parents to anticipate is that what is toxic and abnormal to them is just run of the mill and normal to their kid. Heinously toxic body image content is perceived as just benign noise to a digital natives tween. They'll never volunteer it as something that is profoundly damaging them, because it's all they know.

I see it in adults all the time. Women pretty openly talk to me about health, fitness, and weight-loss, and within a few minutes I can spot an avid Instagrammer from their particular brand of toxic self perception.

You have to know the enemy to defend against it. And kids are not equipped to articulate what's wrong with what they are being subjected to. 

[GuitarStv]

Yep.  My son is aware of what social media is, but will not have facebook, twitter, instagram, etc.  I just don't see any real value being added to life with this crap.  I figure if I can go through life without using them, he'll be fine.

[Metalcat]

Here's the video, it's a Dove marketing campaign, but really well done

https://www.lbbonline.com/news/dove-targets-toxic-beauty-on-social-media-using-deepfakes-in-campaign-from-ogilvy

[getsorted]

It's a good idea to realize that many games are a form of social media, as well, and are a particularly great platform for bullying children in their own homes.

Even the ads are a problem. My kid has an old phone of mine set up under the Google Family umbrella; it's supposed to restrict the ads and apps he has access to, but inappropriate ads continue to arise. He had a LOT of questions after seeing ads for one of those weird romance games.

[Michael in ABQ]

And this is why our kids don't have phones, don't have a personal computer, and only have access to the internet for very limited occasions on one of our laptops in a common area of the house. Our oldest is 14 and none of them have ever had social media accounts, nor will they have them as long as we can control it.

I worry about the cold turkey approach--you can't shelter your kids forever.  I'm a millennial, Facebook was invented when I was in college and internet speeds really sucked when I was growing up so nobody except for dorks were commonly using the internet, so my generation had a similar upbringing to what your kids are going to experience. However, people of my age and generation are addicted to social media.

I'm not sure how you teach moderation with social media, but I think that self-regulation is important, just like with eating or spending money.

I'm an older millennial and grew up with a computer and the internet (dial-up) in the mid-90s as a fairly early adopter. I can't really say that the thousands of hours playing games as a teenager and into college were that great for my development. I didn't get a cell phone until I was in college and got a FB account back when it was still limited to .edu addresses at certain schools where it had been rolled out.

Nowadays, I see minimal value in social media. It's a well-honed machine to suck out consumer data and feed you a steady drip of advertising based on that data. I know because I spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on online advertising. Nearly every site you visit will tag you with a Meta pixel so that site can then show you adds the next time you're on FB or Instagram. These platforms have spent years trying to get you to stay engaged as long as possible because every scroll and every second on the platform means another chance to serve you advertising. Any redeeming values about connections and community and upending the gatekeepers of information have long since been trumped by the desire to extract as much profit as possible from that data.


I recognize that out family is well outside the norm when it comes to technology and we're completely fine with that approach. Our kids can still communicate with friends - just not with their own personal cell phone sitting in their room with no supervision. They can still use the internet, but only if we're present to make sure they're looking at something educational or which LEGO set they want to buy on Amazon, etc. They do have email accounts they can use to communicate with friends - but absolutely no social media. They got a little taste with the LEGO life app a couple of years ago which is all anonymous. Even with that little bit we saw our kids getting upset if they posted a picture of something they built, and it didn't get any likes. We got rid of it soon after that.

[Metalcat]

It's a good idea to realize that many games are a form of social media, as well, and are a particularly great platform for bullying children in their own homes.

Even the ads are a problem. My kid has an old phone of mine set up under the Google Family umbrella; it's supposed to restrict the ads and apps he has access to, but inappropriate ads continue to arise. He had a LOT of questions after seeing ads for one of those weird romance games.

Oy, I had a really rough incident having to explain to a 51 year old mom of a 13* year old that her son's online Thomas The Tank Engine online game/ enthusiast group was not a fundamentally safe place full of kids.

*Yes, I know 13 is an unusual age for such an interest. Imagine how vulnerable this particular, awkward boy would then be to predators.

[charis]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it. 

[Metalcat]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it.

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

Although...to be fair that's about the age I was when I first saw  magazine of naked women that one of my girlfriends found in our other friend's dad's closet.

The difference was I probably saw one magazine once in the context of it being a private adult thing that we stumbled upon. Not a social norm of material shared by peers with free access.

[charis]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it.

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

Although...to be fair that's about the age I was when I first saw  magazine of naked women that one of my girlfriends found in our other friend's dad's closet.

The difference was I probably saw one magazine once in the context of it being a private adult thing that we stumbled upon. Not a social norm of material shared by peers with free access.

We did remove that mode of access and obviously need to have another conversation about this issue.  But we can't control what she's seeing on her friends' phones unless we take her out of school and put her in a bubble of sorts, which is not an extreme that I'm willing to go to. 

[Metalcat]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it.

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

Although...to be fair that's about the age I was when I first saw  magazine of naked women that one of my girlfriends found in our other friend's dad's closet.

The difference was I probably saw one magazine once in the context of it being a private adult thing that we stumbled upon. Not a social norm of material shared by peers with free access.

We did remove that mode of access and obviously need to have another conversation about this issue.  But we can't control what she's seeing on her friends' phones unless we take her out of school and put her in a bubble of sorts, which is not an extreme that I'm willing to go to.

Of course not, nor should you.

But parents should be aware of these realities.

[charis]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it.

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

Although...to be fair that's about the age I was when I first saw  magazine of naked women that one of my girlfriends found in our other friend's dad's closet.

The difference was I probably saw one magazine once in the context of it being a private adult thing that we stumbled upon. Not a social norm of material shared by peers with free access.

We did remove that mode of access and obviously need to have another conversation about this issue.  But we can't control what she's seeing on her friends' phones unless we take her out of school and put her in a bubble of sorts, which is not an extreme that I'm willing to go to.

Of course not, nor should you.

But parents should be aware of these realities.

Absolutely.  I want parents to be aware that if your child has any unmonitored or loosely monitored access to the internet, whether it's at your house, on a friend's phone, at a sleepover, they will likely be exposed to content that they shouldn't be at a young age, whether it's accidental or on purpose.  I've recently been told by some parents that getting a new smartphone for their children is cheaper and easier because they can add it to the family plan for a a few extra bucks a month and it's compatible with all of their other (apple) devices.  They are mainly interested in tracking their kids' whereabouts, which is quite ironic since their kids can now go to the darkest places on earth as a result.

[GuitarStv]

Don't undersell the bubble.  :P

[getsorted]

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

My son is 9 and came home from his dad's one day, saying, "Daddy's friend sent him a really inappropriate picture, and I was playing games on his phone and it just popped up and I saw it. It was a woman and she standing there and she was only wearing her naked butt. Why would somebody just SEND that?"

I had a long moment of panic while I tried to think of a way to explain the concept of sending nudes to a nine-year-old, while trying to be sex-positive, pro-privacy, non-traumatizing, and co-parenting friendly. I said something like, "I'm so sorry! That must have been a very strange surprise. Naked bodies are supposed to be private, and definitely not something kids should see." He agreed and seemed relieved to just have it confirmed that no, you are not supposed to be randomly accosted by nudity while playing Hot Wheels.

But he kept asking me, "Why would someone just SEND a picture of their naked butt?" I fumbled out something like, "Well, after adults go through puberty and become interested in sex, sometimes they like looking at naked people, and so sometimes there are pictures." I still don't know if that was the right approach. I guess time will tell.

Later, I shot my ex a text that said, "Listen, I don't want to know anything about your sex life, but here's what our kid saw and what he said." He was mortified. Apparently it was actually spam that he had been trying to stop, but it kept coming from different numbers! So we agreed that the kid needed his own device to play games on, that did not have an attached phone number. But it just goes to show how ubiquitous and easily encountered porn is.

[Dicey]

Here's the video, it's a Dove marketing campaign, but really well done

https://www.lbbonline.com/news/dove-targets-toxic-beauty-on-social-media-using-deepfakes-in-campaign-from-ogilvy

OMG, I'm not crying, you're crying!

That deserves its own thread.

[Metalcat]

Here's the video, it's a Dove marketing campaign, but really well done

https://www.lbbonline.com/news/dove-targets-toxic-beauty-on-social-media-using-deepfakes-in-campaign-from-ogilvy

OMG, I'm not crying, you're crying!

That deserves its own thread.

Ugh, yeah, I'm normally pretty cynical about this kind of blatant emotional manipulation from a corporation serving their own marketing goals, but man, that shit hit me in some feelings.

Although I think for me it's because I *was* raised by a mom with very toxic beauty standards.

[charis]

Here's the video, it's a Dove marketing campaign, but really well done

https://www.lbbonline.com/news/dove-targets-toxic-beauty-on-social-media-using-deepfakes-in-campaign-from-ogilvy

OMG, I'm not crying, you're crying!

That deserves its own thread.

Yep, I'm crying

[Chris Pascale]

Here's the video, it's a Dove marketing campaign, but really well done

https://www.lbbonline.com/news/dove-targets-toxic-beauty-on-social-media-using-deepfakes-in-campaign-from-ogilvy

OMG, I'm not crying, you're crying!

That deserves its own thread.

Dude! the beginning.

[Chris Pascale]

there was one security video of a guy walking up to another guy in the street in the Philippines and shooting him in the head.

That's seriously insane. Thanks for the reminder.

I don't even want to see a video of someone riding their motorcycle too fast because seeing them wipe out is so unpleasant.

[FINate]

This is why we've decided no social media and no smart phones for our kids. This tech is completely unnecessary, with far too many downsides and almost no upside. Besides, anything associated with Facebook is plain evil (e.g. the Facebook Files), and TikTok is Chinese spyware. It's just not worth it.

I'm not concerned about our kids living in a bubble. I've seen Big Tech from the inside, have no interest in throwing my kids into that cesspool. Instead, they have Pi devices on a separate locked down WiFi network with scheduled hours, content filtering, and no access to social media sites. They have everything they need for school projects.

The kids also have Gizmo watches that provide GPS tracking, and limited calling/texting with pre-approved contacts. No app store, no internet, just the basics that we want. At some point we may get our oldest daughter a Gabb phone, which is essentially a dumb phone that looks like a smart phone.

You don't have to give into pressure from the tech industry. Be intentional about how you use technology or it will end up using you.

[marble_faun]

Yes. Exposure to the internet and its dark sides is something we are trying to postpone for our child for as long as possible.

Millennials and Gen Z have been the guinea pigs for addictive internet apps and unfettered access to some truly horrific people/images/info. (Many boomer parents had no clue what creepy weirdness they were connecting their households to when they got dial-up internet...)

A lot of us have learned from this experience and won't be allowing our own kids that level of exposure so early in their lives.

[Miss Piggy]

Here's the video, it's a Dove marketing campaign, but really well done

https://www.lbbonline.com/news/dove-targets-toxic-beauty-on-social-media-using-deepfakes-in-campaign-from-ogilvy

OMG, I'm not crying, you're crying!

That deserves its own thread.

Yep, I'm crying

Same. Omigosh. I'm pretty much speechless.

LOVE the ending, though, with the young girl sharing what her mom has taught her, then going in for a hug. More of that, please!

[Just Joe]

Yeah, I know this thread is old. ;)

Two things that are free or don't cost much: Pi-Hole (cost of Raspberry Pi) and Cisco Family Shield (free).

I haven't setup a Pi-Hole but it is on my list for cold weather this year. Pi-Hole blocks ads at the router level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi-hole

Family Shield simply reroutes the DNS at the router level. Anything connected to your WiFi (and doesn't have its own data) is shielded from access. Can't go to porn websites, can't go to websites like 4-chan. Yes a tech savvy kid could go around this but will they bother?

https://support.opendns.com/hc/en-us/articles/228006487-FamilyShield-Router-Configuration-Instructions

Just change the DNS settings in your router, substitute their DNS addresses. Lock your router config page with a password which it should be anyhow. Done. You can also switch it off by going back to dynamic DNS in a pinch but I have not needed to do this ever in a decade of use. Any router brand can do this. Doesn't need to be Cisco.

Neither of these is the perfect solution but they help, and aside from the RaspberryPi, they are free.

[Tass]

No kids, just wanted to say we use pi hole and love it. The great thing about it is that is also blocks ads on mobile apps while using wifi. Whenever we get on the internet at other people's houses we are astonished by how unusable it is.

I'm not sure how you teach moderation with social media, but I think that self-regulation is important, just like with eating or spending money.

I think the more apt comparison is alcohol or pot. It can be used responsibly by adults, but it can also alter your brain and ruin your life, and high age limits on its use are justified.

[iris lily]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it.

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

Although...to be fair that's about the age I was when I first saw  magazine of naked women that one of my girlfriends found in our other friend's dad's closet.

The difference was I probably saw one magazine once in the context of it being a private adult thing that we stumbled upon. Not a social norm of material shared by peers with free access.

One of the drivers in teen girl ideation of gender fluidity and cross sex identificatio. Is, apparently, their fear and hooror at how women are “supposed” to act as seen in porn. They do not want anything to do with that, therefore, change sex, it is easier.

I was so surprised to hear this. Ugh. What kind of images are they being subjected to?

[jeninco]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it.

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

Although...to be fair that's about the age I was when I first saw  magazine of naked women that one of my girlfriends found in our other friend's dad's closet.

The difference was I probably saw one magazine once in the context of it being a private adult thing that we stumbled upon. Not a social norm of material shared by peers with free access.

One of the drivers in teen girl ideation of gender fluidity and cross sex identificatio. Is, apparently, their fear and hooror at how women are “supposed” to act as seen in porn. They do not want anything to do with that, therefore, change sex, it is easier.

I was so surprised to hear this. Ugh. What kind of images are they being subjected to?

Two answers:
1. The images they're seeing can totally freaking suck. Without logging into anything, you can look at some shorts on You Tube to see what's out there. Ick! (However, there are also some awesome presentations of what it looks like to not be that. But the way the algorithms work is they try to feed you more of what you're looking at, so they tend to lead you down a rabbit hole, is my understanding.)

2. However, I sort of reject your hypothesis -- I don't think it's that simple. Teens could be looking at how women are treated in real life and nope-ing out, as well. For instance, DH and I just met with a (second) architect, who heard every word MrInCO (a cis-presenting guy) said, and ... maybe about 40-60% of what I said? If we work with this guy, we've already agreed that DH will repeat everything I say until it sinks in...

I know a couple of gender-fluid and non-binary-identifying teens, and I think they just want to be, you know, "people". Without the gender BS that gets put on both sides of the binary split. And I do think the "shorts" vehicles lends themselves to non-nuanced presentations of gender, obviously.

[iris lily]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it.

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

Although...to be fair that's about the age I was when I first saw  magazine of naked women that one of my girlfriends found in our other friend's dad's closet.

The difference was I probably saw one magazine once in the context of it being a private adult thing that we stumbled upon. Not a social norm of material shared by peers with free access.

One of the drivers in teen girl ideation of gender fluidity and cross sex identificatio. Is, apparently, their fear and hooror at how women are “supposed” to act as seen in porn. They do not want anything to do with that, therefore, change sex, it is easier.

I was so surprised to hear this. Ugh. What kind of images are they being subjected to?

Two answers:
1. The images they're seeing can totally freaking suck. Without logging into anything, you can look at some shorts on You Tube to see what's out there. Ick! (However, there are also some awesome presentations of what it looks like to not be that. But the way the algorithms work is they try to feed you more of what you're looking at, so they tend to lead you down a rabbit hole, is my understanding.)

2. However, I sort of reject your hypothesis -- I don't think it's that simple. Teens could be looking at how women are treated in real life and nope-ing out, as well. For instance, DH and I just met with a (second) architect, who heard every word MrInCO (a cis-presenting guy) said, and ... maybe about 40-60% of what I said? If we work with this guy, we've already agreed that DH will repeat everything I say until it sinks in...

I know a couple of gender-fluid and non-binary-identifying teens, and I think they just want to be, you know, "people". Without the gender BS that gets put on both sides of the binary split. And I do think the "shorts" vehicles lends themselves to non-nuanced presentations of gender, obviously.

I’m not saying that it is a universal idea of transition in teen girls, I’m saying I’ve heard it offered as one of many reasons why, and this goes to what you said, women are treated badly, and they don’t want anything to do with that.

There is no one monolithic teen girl who wishes to make a gender change, and there are a myriad of reasons for changing gender, all deeply personal to the kid.

[ChpBstrd]

I found my 8 y/o playing a game in Roblox with other kids called "Piggy". The object of the game is to rampage through a school with a knife stabbing people (represented as pigs). Definitely an educational game on about 3 levels.

[Metalcat]

My tween has never had instagram/FB, etc, but I allow use of a social media app that is on my phone to "text" with friends.  I review it daily and she is fully aware as it was a condition of being able to use it.  She has a school computer and we have a dumb phone that the kids can use if circumstance arises where we may need contact - home alone, etc (we don't have a landline) and to call/text friends.  I'm hyper vigilant about these issues even though most of her friends have smart phones, many without parental controls, and access to all things TikTok and snapchat.

I will say that I was STILL naive when I assumed that my oldest would never search for or come across anything inappropriate on the internet until I checked the search history of the browser on an old phone that we kept around mainly for wifi access to music and a book listening app.  Let's just say there was sexual content that I didn't expect her to be aware of, much less seek out.  I know that curiosity is normal but I'm still kicking myself for not anticipating it.

Average age of first exposure to porn is now 11

Although...to be fair that's about the age I was when I first saw  magazine of naked women that one of my girlfriends found in our other friend's dad's closet.

The difference was I probably saw one magazine once in the context of it being a private adult thing that we stumbled upon. Not a social norm of material shared by peers with free access.

One of the drivers in teen girl ideation of gender fluidity and cross sex identificatio. Is, apparently, their fear and hooror at how women are “supposed” to act as seen in porn. They do not want anything to do with that, therefore, change sex, it is easier.

I was so surprised to hear this. Ugh. What kind of images are they being subjected to?

IDK. This sounds like the whole BS JK Rowling nonsense about girls flocking to become transgender because being female is difficult. I've read a lot of psych research about trans folks for my program and never come across anything that even remotely validates the Rowling-type logic.

I'm not buying it because historically there have always been more trans women than trans men and the rising number of trans men is just closing in on being equal.

Besides, I'm sure they're also being exposed to a lot of vile trans porn too. Porn is an equal opportunity degrader.

[FINate]

Oh, hello necrothread. Always fun to update what's happened on our end.

We've held the line on being a no social media house. My accounts are all cancelled, and DW checks her FB account maybe once per month. This makes conversations with the kids easier, and I know our family is better off for it. It feels like we've avoided a big pile of shit instead of stepping in it and tracking it all through the house.

As part of this, we've also held the line on no smartphones. Oldest DD was desperate for one and argued with us almost daily for about a year. We ended up getting her a Gabb phone which, yes, is technically like a smartphone, but with very limited functionality. No app store. No internet browser. Hence no way to access social media sites or other badness. But it looks like a smartphone, and we added a pretty cover that is DD's style. She can take selfies, make calls, and group text with friends. Part of our agreement with her is that we regularly monitor her text messages, no secrets. We had one instance where she and her friends were trying to conceal something from the parents. Nothing major, except that they were trying to be deceptive. We realize her friends have all figured out text messaging is not a good way to coordinate such things, and they will switch to phone calls or in-person. That's fine, gonna happen somewhat. I suppose this is one of the reasons SnapChat is so popular with teens. Another good reason to avoid the smartphone cesspool.

Family Shield DNS is great and we use it on all our networks. It doesn't just filter porn, but also malicious sites. It's a good first line of defense to keep the dregs of the internet at bay.

We used Pi-hole for a while. It's great overall, though we stopped using it because it broke a few sites and very occasionally (usually when I wasn't around) it would crap out and DW couldn't figure out what was wrong.

In addition to Family Shield DNS, we also use a UniFi router that has additional filtering controls built in. We have a dedicated WiFi network configured for the kids' Linux based desktop computers. This network uses the UniFi filtering to disallow social media sites, VPN, proxies, Tor, peer-to-peer and a few other things I don't want on my network. The kids' network is also on a schedule to shut off at night when they should be in bed, and the computers are in a very public facing area of the house. The router is also configured to enforce Safe Search on Google/YouTube, though we're considering blocking YouTube because the content just keeps getting worse and worse.

[Just Joe]

No kids, just wanted to say we use pi hole and love it. The great thing about it is that is also blocks ads on mobile apps while using wifi. Whenever we get on the internet at other people's houses we are astonished by how unusable it is.

I'm not sure how you teach moderation with social media, but I think that self-regulation is important, just like with eating or spending money.

I think the more apt comparison is alcohol or pot. It can be used responsibly by adults, but it can also alter your brain and ruin your life, and high age limits on its use are justified.

That's true about cable TV vs streaming as well. The constant interruptions of commercials! Wouldn't have a TV if that was the only way to watch.

Another word about the family shield - my family isn't even aware that we've been using it for years... My DW might know if she hasn't forgotten. That's how simple it is. Our teens might not be aware of it and thus no awareness that they might want to bypass it.

All in all a good thread for parents of young kids that might be searching the forum for ideas.

[GuitarStv]

No kids, just wanted to say we use pi hole and love it. The great thing about it is that is also blocks ads on mobile apps while using wifi. Whenever we get on the internet at other people's houses we are astonished by how unusable it is.

I'm not sure how you teach moderation with social media, but I think that self-regulation is important, just like with eating or spending money.

I think the more apt comparison is alcohol or pot. It can be used responsibly by adults, but it can also alter your brain and ruin your life, and high age limits on its use are justified.

That's true about cable TV vs streaming as well. The constant interruptions of commercials! Wouldn't have a TV if that was the only way to watch.

Another word about the family shield - my family isn't even aware that we've been using it for years... My DW might know if she hasn't forgotten. That's how simple it is. Our teens might not be aware of it and thus no awareness that they might want to bypass it.

All in all a good thread for parents of young kids that might be searching the forum for ideas.

In some ways I kinda miss commercials.  I used to have a full weight set in the living room, so any time I watched TV I'd do weights every time the commercials came on.  Couldn't watch more than a couple hours of TV a day - it was too tiring!

[Jakestersquat]

I’m glad this thread popped back up. I recently just finished a phenomenal book about this subject. “Who’s raising the kids?” By Susan Linn. It was really eye opening when you realize how predatory advertisements are and how big business and big tech are going after the “child market” after essentially conquering the adult and teen markets. I would also recommend “Reset your child’s brain” by Victoria L Dunkely. She talks a lot more about video games and the way they are intentionally  designed to make kids hyper add to that all the stupid micro transactions that have bled over from mobile gaming and it’s just a state of disaster.

https://drdunckley.com/reset-your-childs-brain/

[Chris Pascale]

Thank you for the reminder.

[charis]

There is no privacy online.  Why would anyone pretend that there is for their children?  It is nothing like a handwritten diary or an in-person conversation and it does no favors to pretend like it is.   

I'm not trying to criticize anyone's approach with their own families, they know best, but I have seen so many parents burned by the belief that their kids will come to them if they see something inappropriate online - they won't.  You can be super open with your children and they will still not tell you when they or a friend seek something out or are victimized online.  That's biological and you should not expect them not to hide it.  It doesn't mean that you should not monitor their online interactions.  They are children.

[FINate]

Yeah, nothing's private online. Tech companies and governments gather as much data as possible, far more than people realize. I also don't want to judge, but the idea of not monitoring online activity in the name of privacy is naive. Companies quite literally hack our biology to get us addicted to a dopamine feedback loop that they then exploit to gather personal data for profit. A conversation about body image or other issues is no match for hours and hours of subconscious messages.

It may seem we're helicopter parents based on our strict parameters around online activity, but we're intentionally far more permissive in the real world. Starting at around age 8 we allowed our kids to walk the ~5 blocks to the neighborhood park to play there for hours on their own. They walk themselves to and from school. Their range has increased as they've become preteens, and they ride bikes/scooters to further away parks, friends houses, and a retail area to shop and hang out, all on their own. Of course, there are risks associated with this --  we worry most about crossing streets. But there's also a lot of value in learning how to navigate a city, interacting with businesses, making their own money decisions, and so on. So for us it's worth the risk.

We'd much rather they have a private conversation with a friend in-person at a park or a coffee shop. No data collection, no algorithm. And we're also careful to let them know that privacy is never absolute. We live in a community and we know our neighbors, people from church, families from school. There are almost always people around that we know. So there's a good chance that we'll hear about what they're up to from other folks in the community, good or bad.

[charis]

It's never one or the other.  Parents can teach their children to be functioning adults and monitor their online activities without turning them into liars or causing them to avoid every pain or difficulty (no one said that of course).  We don't need to be hyperbolic and turn an opposing argument to the extreme that it isn't.  Setting reasonable boundaries and rules is also a pain that children need to learn to deal with as well.

[FINate]

Police broke up a child sex ring in my city this week. Social media was the main conduit for recruiting victims.

Boise Police would like to remind parents to talk with children about safety online and what to do if they receive concerning messages.

Talk to kids about the responsibility that comes with a phone or internet access and the possible danger they may face including cyberbullying, sexting, taking explicit images, and online predators.

• Set guidelines for phone, app, and online usage.
• Parents should monitor phone usage and online activity to know who kids are calling ,texting, and messaging.
• Considering having the charging station in a parent's bedroom at night to prevent phone usage overnight.
• Have an open dialogue with your child, it's the best safety resource.

https://idahonews.com/news/local/eight-arrested-in-boise-for-child-sexual-exploitation-in-large-scale-investigation

[charis]

my kids have willingly shared logs with the teachers and police to aid in the search for evidence. Nothing untoward has ever been discovered, so if they have done anything they shouldn't have, they are very good at hiding it.

I kinda blinked on this line until the thread was bumped.  Your kids have had to share their online activity logs with teachers and the police in search of evidence? And it's okay because they didn't do anything untoward (whatever that means)?  But you don't monitor their online activity because they (children) wouldn't like it and would rebel against you? 

I have a neighbor with a talented and artistic 11 year kid on TikTok (got a smart phone in sixth grade) who was interested in anime who was not monitored or restricted from content in any way and was almost immediately redirected to hardcore and inappropriate content.  The child, who should have been protected, blamed themselves for what they were exposed to and is now being medicated for depression as a result.  Obviously they didn't do anything untoward because...it's a child.

I'm bewildered that a child's unrestricted access to the internet is considered any parent's answer.

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

Yeah, nothing's private online. Tech companies and governments gather as much data as possible, far more than people realize. I also don't want to judge, but the idea of not monitoring online activity in the name of privacy is naive. Companies quite literally hack our biology to get us addicted to a dopamine feedback loop that they then exploit to gather personal data for profit. A conversation about body image or other issues is no match for hours and hours of subconscious messages.

Yes, this is the state of it.  And, beyond this, they actively iterate and improve on their ability to do this - some of the best paid people in tech are those who are good at finding ways to better hack human biology to manipulate people to the whims of those paying the tech companies (who are not those we normally consider users).

Zuboff's book on Surveillance Capitalism is a long and complex read, but well worth it to understand the state of where we are and how we got here.

It may seem we're helicopter parents based on our strict parameters around online activity, but we're intentionally far more permissive in the real world.

This is the way to raise competent children, certainly.  We do not live near parks, but allow ours to roam when they're in town somewhat, and certainly can go some while without knowing where they are.

I work in tech, yet, our children are of limited capability online, rather deliberately.

We'd much rather they have a private conversation with a friend in-person at a park or a coffee shop.

I hope that the younger generations currently continue this way - that an active rejection of our "consumer tech" ways takes solid root.  One can usually rely on teenagers to reject "that which their parents did," and given how many have been raised by screen slaves, I see reason to hope that the next wave of teenagers will reject it substantially.  You can only see so many older (typically Boomer-age) relatives turned from interesting people into absolutely addled-mind zombies (whatever Facebook has done to them is both masterful and horrifying) before you want nothing to do with it.

[FINate]

Yeah, nothing's private online. Tech companies and governments gather as much data as possible, far more than people realize. I also don't want to judge, but the idea of not monitoring online activity in the name of privacy is naive. Companies quite literally hack our biology to get us addicted to a dopamine feedback loop that they then exploit to gather personal data for profit. A conversation about body image or other issues is no match for hours and hours of subconscious messages.

Yes, this is the state of it.  And, beyond this, they actively iterate and improve on their ability to do this - some of the best paid people in tech are those who are good at finding ways to better hack human biology to manipulate people to the whims of those paying the tech companies (who are not those we normally consider users).

Zuboff's book on Surveillance Capitalism is a long and complex read, but well worth it to understand the state of where we are and how we got here.

It may seem we're helicopter parents based on our strict parameters around online activity, but we're intentionally far more permissive in the real world.

This is the way to raise competent children, certainly.  We do not live near parks, but allow ours to roam when they're in town somewhat, and certainly can go some while without knowing where they are.

I work in tech, yet, our children are of limited capability online, rather deliberately.

We'd much rather they have a private conversation with a friend in-person at a park or a coffee shop.

I hope that the younger generations currently continue this way - that an active rejection of our "consumer tech" ways takes solid root.  One can usually rely on teenagers to reject "that which their parents did," and given how many have been raised by screen slaves, I see reason to hope that the next wave of teenagers will reject it substantially.  You can only see so many older (typically Boomer-age) relatives turned from interesting people into absolutely addled-mind zombies (whatever Facebook has done to them is both masterful and horrifying) before you want nothing to do with it.

My background is also in tech. I retired, in part, because once I could see the exploitative nature of the industry I couldn't unsee it. For the non tech savvy parents out there, it's worth noting parents that have worked in tech and have a very dismal view of it.

Giving a 13 year old a smartphone with unfiltered access to the internet, and then not monitoring activity, is asking for trouble. I remember being a teen. I pushed limits, as did all my peers. OF COURSE we didn't tell our parents everything, lol. This doesn't mean we were "bad" kids, just typical humans.

With our kids we're big on the idea of trust being earned, and once earned it's an ongoing process to verify that it's still deserved. And it's not a right. In general, we've decided social media has almost zero upsides and lots of downside, so the risk-reward isn't worth it. Sorry not sorry, FOMO or not fitting in isn't important to us.

Remember when it was popular in tech to believe the internet would usher in an era of unprecedented freedom and democracy? This was the late 90s/early 2000s. We believed society would collectively overcome for-profit gatekeepers and overthrow dictators. There was so much hope during the Arab Spring as social media mobilized citizens to demand change. Ah, we were all so naive. Big Tech loves the Myth of Progress because it lulls people into a sense of complacency. Much of the rhetoric is focused on how tech and advancement is improving our lives. Yet I look around and the opposite seems more likely. Increasing rates of anxiety, isolation, suicide, anger, and general unhappiness. While it's popular to frame a lot of this as late-state capitalism (for which there's a lot of truth), I think a better description is late-stage individualism. We keep doubling down on individualism, at the expense of community and connection and a sense of belonging. Which, of course, is also a great way to hook people on consumerism and the hedonic treadmill. I also hope the next generation rebels against the status quo, but I'm not optimistic in the outcome. While there is some movement for less overt consumerism, I expect these trends, like the Arab Spring, will be co-opted by elites to keep people hooked to the profit machine in some form or another. 

Everyone is worried about generative AI taking jobs, which is a valid concern. But I'm more worried about its ability to generate huge amounts of content essentially for free. Bad actors generating massive amounts of misleading information. Propagandists. The ability to generate hyper-realistic videos depicting violence and sex. You think people have body image issues now? Wait until generative AI is combined with algorithms to create a continuous stream of content that grabs attention. It won't take long for us to start normalizing more and more extreme body forms.

[FLBiker]

Yeah, I know this thread is old. ;)

Two things that are free or don't cost much: Pi-Hole (cost of Raspberry Pi) and Cisco Family Shield (free).

I haven't setup a Pi-Hole but it is on my list for cold weather this year. Pi-Hole blocks ads at the router level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi-hole

Family Shield simply reroutes the DNS at the router level. Anything connected to your WiFi (and doesn't have its own data) is shielded from access. Can't go to porn websites, can't go to websites like 4-chan. Yes a tech savvy kid could go around this but will they bother?

https://support.opendns.com/hc/en-us/articles/228006487-FamilyShield-Router-Configuration-Instructions

Just change the DNS settings in your router, substitute their DNS addresses. Lock your router config page with a password which it should be anyhow. Done. You can also switch it off by going back to dynamic DNS in a pinch but I have not needed to do this ever in a decade of use. Any router brand can do this. Doesn't need to be Cisco.

Neither of these is the perfect solution but they help, and aside from the RaspberryPi, they are free.

Thank you for this!  I'm a big ad blocker, and I like being able to block sites that I'm trying to resist (e.g. news sites) on my PC, but I love the idea of being able to do it at the house level, both because I have a child and also because I can't edit the host file on my work PC (no admin rights).  I will definitely look into both of these!

Edit: Shoot, it doesn't look like Family Shield does what I want.  It blocks a list of sites that they determine.  I'd like to be able to block (at the router level) a list of sites that I determine.  Is that possible?  I may end up using Family Shield anyway, but I'd love to be able to block news sites as I tend to get sucked in during elections.

Edit #2: Ooooh it looks like I can block specific domains with Pi Hole.  I've long been looking for a reason to get a Raspberry Pi and I think I've finally found it.  Thanks again!

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

You can run a Pi-Hole on x86 VMs just fine in Docker...

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

My background is also in tech. I retired, in part, because once I could see the exploitative nature of the industry I couldn't unsee it. For the non tech savvy parents out there, it's worth noting parents that have worked in tech and have a very dismal view of it.

Yes, one finds schools in the core of Silicon Valley that are "low tech" by most standards, in which children aren't given individual iPads/laptops/etc, and which basically refuse "Educational Technology" approaches to learning.

That EdTech has been reliably demonstrated to be nothing more than "Very Profitable for EdTech Companies!" doesn't help any.  It does not help learning, it only costs large sums of money for fragile, short lived e-waste.  At least a fixed computer lab doesn't have the same early obsolescence profile as portable devices - yet, almost all schools now have laptop carries and classroom iPads (often high end models for no discernible reasons).

I have not yet retired, yet I find myself in an industry I hate the results of and this is an open question as to how soon I can get out.

Remember when it was popular in tech to believe the internet would usher in an era of unprecedented freedom and democracy? This was the late 90s/early 2000s. We believed society would collectively overcome for-profit gatekeepers and overthrow dictators.

Yes, I recall those days.  They slipped away so slowly none of us really noticed until they were long gone, or, at times, were making (very good) money on the process.

You probably recognize this:

This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud. We make use of a service already existing without paying for what could be dirt-cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering gluttons, and you call us criminals. We explore... and you call us criminals. We seek after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals. Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for. I am a hacker, and this is my manifesto. You may stop this individual, but you can't stop us all... after all, we're all alike.

How far we have gotten from that vision.

Yet I look around and the opposite seems more likely. Increasing rates of anxiety, isolation, suicide, anger, and general unhappiness.

Or, as has been regularly noted, "A very good state for influencing people to buy things."

While it's popular to frame a lot of this as late-state capitalism (for which there's a lot of truth), I think a better description is late-stage individualism. We keep doubling down on individualism, at the expense of community and connection and a sense of belonging. Which, of course, is also a great way to hook people on consumerism and the hedonic treadmill.

Indeed.  And many of the remaining community options were blown apart by the lockdowns and isolation of 2020-2022.

But, again, as you note, this is a good path to consumerism, to always hoping one can buy ones way out of problems caused by the last things one purchased.  If only we do more of what got us here, we can dream that we will get out of it!  We can consume our way out of problems caused by consumption!  It's nonsense, yet... popular.

Everyone is worried about generative AI taking jobs, which is a valid concern. But I'm more worried about its ability to generate huge amounts of content essentially for free. Bad actors generating massive amounts of misleading information. Propagandists. The ability to generate hyper-realistic videos depicting violence and sex. You think people have body image issues now? Wait until generative AI is combined with algorithms to create a continuous stream of content that grabs attention. It won't take long for us to start normalizing more and more extreme body forms.

Indeed, and to create high amounts of "individually nuanced" articles that are able to influence subtly, over time.  Reasons why I use the internet less and less.