Author Topic: Kids before financial independence?  (Read 18784 times)

onlykelsey

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Kids before financial independence?
« on: December 22, 2015, 06:02:18 AM »
Hello,

I know I'm likely to get a facepunch from some for this, but what are your thoughts on having kids before financial independence?  I'm 29, married, and earning six figures post taxes in Manhattan.  My job offers (in America exceedingly generous) 14 weeks paid leave, which it seems silly not to take advantage of, especially given how much of our household income I take home. 

On the other hand, DH had a very anti-mustachian life before me (and I have plenty of room to grow as well), so I'm not sure it makes sense to make my life more expensive and stressful before I am FI.  For what it's worth, if I were to give birth in, say, June 2017 (edited, was June 2016 but I can't count), I'd have approximately 480K-500K in personal net worth (including equity in our primary residence, which I bought pre-marriage, and which I currently rent out half of) with no debts except my mortgage (I currently have ~230K of equity, would expect to have ~260 by then).

I don't feel comfortable claiming to be independent at that amount, especially given my husband's earnings and negative personal net worth, but it seems close enough to be comfortable that I'm not totally messing it up by having kids.  And on the other hand, I think I can safely expect birth and pregnancy to get more "expensive" monetarily or otherwise as I move in to my 30s.

Has anyone made a similar choice?  Do they regret it? 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 06:34:25 AM by onlykelsey »

arebelspy

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2015, 06:15:16 AM »
Most people who have kids have them before FI.  Even discarding the vast, vast majority who never reach FI, just counting the people who do reach FI, they reach FI typically at the ages of the limits of having kids (35-40) or older.

So yes, most people here who have kids are not yet FI, and made that decision (or made the decision to have kids before they came upon the concept of FIRE).

The wife and I chose to delay kids until after FIRE, so we could raise them full time, but we knew FIRE was very close, so it was only delaying it a few years, and not affecting our reproductive capabilities much at all (wife got pregnant right before she turned 29).

Ultimately you have to do what is best for you and your significant other.  That means weighing in a lot of factors: age-based fertility stuff, FI, childcare if you are both working, or possibly someone quitting, etc.

I'd start with some actual data and numbers.  When WILL you be FI with no kid (but counting expenses as if you had the kid--i.e. if you hit FI, and had a kid, make sure you're FI for that spending amount)?  When will you be FI if you had a kid 9 months from now? 

Start with looking at that gap, and how it delays your FIRE.  Then think about your age at both of those. Think about what would happen with the kid (childcare versus SAH parent versus both FIRE'd). 

Start with the data, then add on the emotional factors after, and see if they tip the scales one way or the other.

It's a tough decision, but you're in a great place financially, I'm sure you guys will make a good decision that works for you.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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little_brown_dog

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2015, 06:18:41 AM »
I think you’ll find a lot of us had kids before true FI. Many of us came to mustachian principles in our late 20s, 30s and 40s...if we waited for FI before having kids we probably would never have children!  Fertility tanks after 35/36 so if a big family is your preference, it's usually better to get started sooner rather than later.

We are 28 and have an infant daughter.  We are definitely not FI but would consider ourselves to be very financially stable (no consumer debt like cc or cars, minimal student loan debt now, modest mortgage, strong savings, moderate expenses) and certainly far more comfortable than the vast majority of others in our age group. I don’t think you need to be FI to have kids, but it is important to be stable. Having a child is one of the top predictors of bankruptcy for couples. Personally I would not have had kids yet if we were drowning in debt, living paycheck to paycheck, or in other dangerous financial waters.

You sound like you are doing great, especially at 29! I don't think money is an obstacle for you. We have a lot less and everything is still going well.

Edit:  Something to consider - try to figure out your feelings on staying home with the kids or reducing your work hours before you get pregnant. Many, many moms do not prefer full time work once they have children, so this is a critical factor if you are the main breadwinner. You don't want to end up upset and resentful.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 06:27:41 AM by little_brown_dog »

Fishindude

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2015, 06:36:11 AM »
You don't want to wait too long to have kids.
We love being 50-something empty nesters.

onlykelsey

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2015, 07:03:26 AM »
Ultimately you have to do what is best for you and your significant other.  That means weighing in a lot of factors: age-based fertility stuff, FI, childcare if you are both working, or possibly someone quitting, etc.

I'd start with some actual data and numbers.  When WILL you be FI with no kid (but counting expenses as if you had the kid--i.e. if you hit FI, and had a kid, make sure you're FI for that spending amount)?  When will you be FI if you had a kid 9 months from now? 

It's definitely a pretty complex decision.    I think that because I can get about 1800 in rent (after my mortgage) from my apartment and my husband has a portable job, I could honestly be some sort of FI at any point, so long as the rents in Manhattan don't tank and we're willing to move somewhere less ludicrously expensive, which is a great position to be in.  I don't think I'd be appreciably closer to NYC-style FI, but certainly more ready to downsize and be FI somewhere else.  I guess my plan is to keep costs down and keep earning six figures until I'm ready to downsize, rather that relocate in advance and slow my earnings potential.  As a lawyer, NYC is head and shoulders above most other legal markets, so I'm more willing to stick it out for the sake of experience/resume.

The childcare point is another good one.  I would get subsidized care through work, and my husband and I have played with the idea of him going half time (because I have so much more earnings potential now, and my exit from this path is more of a one-way street than in his teach career) for six months (in addition to paid childcare).  Childcare is so obscenely expensive, especially in coastal cities.  Maybe an argument for relocating first. 

thd7t

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2015, 07:05:21 AM »
We had kids prior to FI (we're still in the prior to FI stage).  I have two observations to make.  First, it isn't easy working and having kids, but it's manageable.  Our first child really put work and time into better perspective for me.  I established a clearer boundary between my work and home life.  That has lead to greater happiness in my life.

Second, I think that if I had kids at a younger age, I might be closer to FI, now.  If you are working, a lot of the most expensive part of raising a child is daycare.  Getting that out of the way early is great.

onlykelsey

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2015, 07:15:41 AM »
I think you’ll find a lot of us had kids before true FI. Many of us came to mustachian principles in our late 20s, 30s and 40s...if we waited for FI before having kids we probably would never have children!  Fertility tanks after 35/36 so if a big family is your preference, it's usually better to get started sooner rather than later.
  A big family is not my preference, at least not biologically, so no worries there, but my friends who have had kids at 25 vs 35 point out how much more energy they had at 25.  The counterpoint is that older mothers are happier and more financially stable, but if I can combine a younger age with a net worth of someone older, that seems like the best of both worlds. 

Edit:  Something to consider - try to figure out your feelings on staying home with the kids or reducing your work hours before you get pregnant. Many, many moms do not prefer full time work once they have children, so this is a critical factor if you are the main breadwinner. You don't want to end up upset and resentful.
A good point.  The way my industry works is that once I take an exit from this particular path (sort of at the pinnacle of my career in terms of demands and prestige, I'm at my computer probably 80 hours a week and constantly on call, but working on incredible projects for incredible pay), there isn't usually an onramp back on to this track.  I was thinking I'd put in a few more years (with a kid) and wait to have/adopt a second until I had resituated myself on a different career path (for ~50% of the pay, perhaps).  Of course having two incomes and my investments to draw on, I should be able to choose to stay at home (if we relocate) without a problem, if that's what I'm dying to do or what makes sense at the time.

onlykelsey

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2015, 07:22:52 AM »
You don't want to wait too long to have kids.
We love being 50-something empty nesters.

The idea of still being mobile when my kids are gone is exciting.  My father was 68 when I finished high school, so it's a foreign concept.  Of course, I am also not jealous of my cousins who will be 35 or 36 when their kids finish high school. 

onlykelsey

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2015, 07:28:19 AM »
We had kids prior to FI (we're still in the prior to FI stage).  I have two observations to make.  First, it isn't easy working and having kids, but it's manageable.  Our first child really put work and time into better perspective for me.  I established a clearer boundary between my work and home life.  That has lead to greater happiness in my life.

Second, I think that if I had kids at a younger age, I might be closer to FI, now.  If you are working, a lot of the most expensive part of raising a child is daycare.  Getting that out of the way early is great.

That's an interesting perspective.  Obviously having kids at 30 (at the earliest) would (ed. NOT) be "younger age", but for graduate school-educated New Yorkers it would be.  I got married at 28 and people acted like I was a child bride. I am inclined to milk my high-paying high-pressure job for all the benefits I can get (including childcare help), although being a mother in BigLaw sounds awful.  I think I am in a good enough position to walk away.

If anyone is interested, a sad article about the reality of working for an international law firm as a (young-ish) parent: http://www.businessinsider.com/working-mom-biglaw-departure-memo-2012-11
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 12:09:33 PM by onlykelsey »

BBub

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2015, 12:02:57 PM »
Here's my line of thinking.  Full disclosure: it's very back of the napkin.

A kid costs about $1k/mo for a complete middle-class consumer sucka-style existence.  Think daycare, food, medical, additional commuting, throw in education savings, etc.  Hopefully, mustachians will spend much less. 

But assuming $1k/mo we will need a $300k stash.  In theory, the assets will pick up the slack for the reduction in savings due to childcare expenses.  So a goal we've discussed is $300k for the first kid, $600k for kid 2, etc.  Then keep saving and growing the stash as you would have normally.  It's not perfect - of course you would have more money without kids.  But it's perhaps a unique perspective to help you determine whether you are financially ready for a kid.

okits

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2015, 08:06:40 PM »
We became parents before FI (it's still a number of years off.)  Certainly, it required some sacrifices, but having a healthy stash means you can afford those sacrifices.

I don't regret it at all, even though it would obviously be easier to be FI, first, or even just a few years closer than we are.  (Here's where my comment gets very depressing, and I'm sorry for that.)

What I have learned and wished I'd known ahead of time:

- not everyone can conceive quickly;
- not everyone can conceive without fertility assistance (you can have difficulties at any age, even in your 20s);
- not every conception results in a viable pregnancy;
- not every pregnancy results in a surviving child;
- if you encounter any challenges along the way you both may need time to recover (physically, emotionally.)

Depending on how important carrying a child (or a biologically-related child) is to you and your husband, leave enough time in case you don't get the optimistic, best-case scenario, and leave enough time and energy if you'd want the chance to "try" more than once, if needed.  That may mean you're not FI or that you step back from your career path before financially optimal.

(Sorry, I know what I'm saying is a real downer, but I'd rather you read my depressing post now than perhaps, in hindsight, wish you had given yourselves a bit more time.)

LiveLean

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2015, 06:47:42 AM »
You don't want to wait too long to have kids.
We love being 50-something empty nesters.

The idea of still being mobile when my kids are gone is exciting.  My father was 68 when I finished high school, so it's a foreign concept.  Of course, I am also not jealous of my cousins who will be 35 or 36 when their kids finish high school.

Math check. Seriously? Who would be jealous of anyone who had one or more kids before the age of 18?

onlykelsey

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2015, 06:57:07 AM »
Quote
Math check. Seriously? Who would be jealous of anyone who had one or more kids before the age of 18?

I think norms matter a lot.  I remember my family being very openly concerned the summer I turned 21 that I hadn't had kids with anyone yet.  I think for some people, having children (regardless of how well- or ill-prepared you are) is their path to adulthood. 

Seeing my cousins become parents while in high school/high school-aged probably pushed me further in the other direction.  I wonder if, had I not been exposed to that, I would have planned my life to have kids more in my mid 20s. 

onlykelsey

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2015, 07:03:04 AM »
What I have learned and wished I'd known ahead of time:

- not everyone can conceive quickly;
- not everyone can conceive without fertility assistance (you can have difficulties at any age, even in your 20s);
- not every conception results in a viable pregnancy;
- not every pregnancy results in a surviving child;
- if you encounter any challenges along the way you both may need time to recover (physically, emotionally.)

Depending on how important carrying a child (or a biologically-related child) is to you and your husband, leave enough time in case you don't get the optimistic, best-case scenario, and leave enough time and energy if you'd want the chance to "try" more than once, if needed.  That may mean you're not FI or that you step back from your career path before financially optimal.

(Sorry, I know what I'm saying is a real downer, but I'd rather you read my depressing post now than perhaps, in hindsight, wish you had given yourselves a bit more time.)

It's always good to hear realistic advice.  It's something I've always been aware of because my mother had ~5 miscarriages (in addition to me and my sister), although docs assure me that was related to medical problems that I haven't inherited.

it sounds like it's probably time to see the doctor and start trying, so we can find out if there are unexpected problems on the horizon.  Plus, 14 weeks unpaid (of six figures) is crazy for the US.  Although we'd like to have at least one biological child, both of us are also open to adoption, although we've done no research or saving or preparation for that path yet. 

matchewed

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2015, 07:10:40 AM »
Quote
Math check. Seriously? Who would be jealous of anyone who had one or more kids before the age of 18?

I think norms matter a lot.  I remember my family being very openly concerned the summer I turned 21 that I hadn't had kids with anyone yet.  I think for some people, having children (regardless of how well- or ill-prepared you are) is their path to adulthood. 

Seeing my cousins become parents while in high school/high school-aged probably pushed me further in the other direction.  I wonder if, had I not been exposed to that, I would have planned my life to have kids more in my mid 20s.

Um... if norms matter then why not compare yourself to actual norms? 25.4 for the United States.  Four years is nothing really. But if you want happiness don't compare yourself to anything but yourself.

If you want to have kids have kids. Adjust your financial plan accordingly. If you don't want to have kids don't have kids. No adjustment (based on kids) necessary.

Fishindude

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2015, 08:08:21 AM »
My brother will be 65 when his son graduates High School, near 70 if he goes through college.
It's worked fine for him, but I wouldn't still want teenagers at the house when I'm 60 something.

Helvegen

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2015, 11:07:01 AM »
My brother will be 65 when his son graduates High School, near 70 if he goes through college.
It's worked fine for him, but I wouldn't still want teenagers at the house when I'm 60 something.

If there is a teen in my house at that age, better be my grandkid over for a visit! :)



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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2015, 11:29:32 AM »
Just wanted to drop a note here and say - We had kids before FI, but it was actually the kids who made us want to desire FI.  Before kids our frugality muscles were weak.

Now, after kids we've got ROCK HARD frugality muscles! 

Kids force you down a different path in life.  I remember vaguely eating out at a restaurant, once, long ago in a galaxy far far away.  Now, why would I ever want to?  More trouble than it's worth.

mm1970

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2015, 01:12:46 PM »
You don't want to wait too long to have kids.
We love being 50-something empty nesters.

This made me smile.  I have friends in the same category.

We love being ... mid-to-late 40-something parents of 9 and 3 year old boys.  (Because we love being parents.)

Empty nesting will be in our mid-60s.

To the OP: yeah, we had kids before we were FI.  I don't really know when we will be FI.  If we sold the house and moved to either home town, we'd be FI.

mm1970

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2015, 01:14:34 PM »
Here's my line of thinking.  Full disclosure: it's very back of the napkin.

A kid costs about $1k/mo for a complete middle-class consumer sucka-style existence.  Think daycare, food, medical, additional commuting, throw in education savings, etc.  Hopefully, mustachians will spend much less. 

But assuming $1k/mo we will need a $300k stash.  In theory, the assets will pick up the slack for the reduction in savings due to childcare expenses.  So a goal we've discussed is $300k for the first kid, $600k for kid 2, etc.  Then keep saving and growing the stash as you would have normally.  It's not perfect - of course you would have more money without kids.  But it's perhaps a unique perspective to help you determine whether you are financially ready for a kid.

Depending on location, you're a little off - daycare alone for an infant will run $1200-$2000 a month.

mm1970

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2015, 01:16:41 PM »
My brother will be 65 when his son graduates High School, near 70 if he goes through college.
It's worked fine for him, but I wouldn't still want teenagers at the house when I'm 60 something.
We will be 62 and 60 when our younger child graduates high school

He keeps us young!  That's what I tell myself.

But really, growing up I used to feel like my dad was "old".  He was 44 when I was born and 46 when my brother was born (we are the last 2 kids of 9).

Doesn't seem so old now, as we were 42 and 44 when our younger one was born.

arebelspy

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2015, 01:36:43 PM »
You don't want to wait too long to have kids.
We love being 50-something empty nesters.

While I understand this view, we very much enjoyed having the time to ourselves before having kids.

The wife and I just celebrated our 9 year wedding anniversary, and our first one is on its way.  Having that time, just us, was amazing.

And we'll still be empty nesters in our 50s (early 50s, as I'm 30 right now, or maybe mid-to-late 50s depending on how many kids we have, but we'll definitely be "50-something empty nesters").

If you're of similar ages, the woman's biology limits the timespan you can have the kids, so even having them about as late as typically possible (say, late, late 30s), they're still over 18 by your mid-50s.  This is only not the case for the man, if he's much older. The math to me says pretty much every woman should be a 50-something empty nester, even if she waited to have kids.

So your point is true, but I think it'll be easy for most people to hit, and I wouldn't overlook the time together while young, without kids (on top of the "both being FIRE'd to raise them" neatness).
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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TVRodriguez

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2015, 03:11:28 PM »
I had the first of our 3 kids at 33 and the last at 37. I was in BigLaw and went part time. Yes it killed my income, dropping it to 75% and then to 50% after the second kid but 50% of a lot is still a lot more than the average income, and we had 2 earners. Plus I had half billable hour goals and quite honestly didn't love my firm. I was happy to work 30 hours and have time for my family.   I was grateful for the 3 paid maternity leaves. MyDH had huge student loans. We finally paid them off the year our youngest was born. DH is ten years my senior.  Yes it delayed FI but I think of it as having kind of been half FI since we both work part time and are still able to move towards our goals. All of them. Including paying off all loans, paying off the mortgage, saving for retirement, and being parents.  I left BigLaw after the third kid, and I'm happily practicing as a solo. This year I made more than I ever did in BigLaw and took about 7 weeks off work.  I'm not on any super lawyers list, I don't publish, and I'm not any sort of name in my field, but I have a good reputation and I do good work.  Not having to kill myself for some idiot committee looking at how to fill their own pockets on my back has given me enormous freedom to simply do good work and charge a fair price.

madamwitty

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2015, 03:34:47 PM »
We had three kids when I was ages 27, 30, and 32 respectively. (I'm 33 now and we're done having kids!) We'll probably hit FI when I am about 38.

At age 27, I could have socked away gobs of money by working full time a few more years without the cost of daycare. DH and I would probably be FI by now. But instead, I dropped to half-time and started having kids. The big motivator was actually my parents' health. Having my kids know their grandparents (and vice versa) is very important to me. Both of my grandfathers died at an early age and my dad had his first heart attack when I was in high school. In hindsight I know (and am glad!) my dad is still around, but there were no guarantees when DH and I made the decision to start having kids.

I hadn't come across the idea of FIRE, though. Who knows what what decision I would have made otherwise? In retrospect, it was a good idea to start earlier rather than later (from a fertility perspective), since I did have some (mild) problems that stretched out our timeline for kids.

I don't regret my decisions, though. I have a pretty awesome job, so I don't mind sticking it out for a few more years.

CanuckExpat

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2015, 04:04:30 PM »
For background here is an article by a writer you might recognize covers this topic: First Retire, then Have Kids, It's not completely targetted at your situation, but nobody else has posted it yet.

Also here is as good a list of The Pros And Cons Of Waiting To Have Children as you are going to find.

This is one of those questions that depends heavily on your personal situation, and unfortunately you can't try out both paths and then decide which works better for you. If you are doing well financially, are close to FI, have a job you enjoy, and have good parental leave, then you are starting off in a good place and I think you are more likely to be happy with either decision.

We were in a similar situation to you when we had our son: early 30s, two good paying jobs, good parental leave options, and relatively close to FIRE. We didn't think about waiting until FIRE, and were persuaded to have a child at that age based on fertility concerns (which may be overblown). It has worked out ok for us and we are happy where we are, but if I was able to send advice back to the past, I'd tell them to also consider waiting until they both no longer need to work.

As I said, there are upsides and downsides to waiting, and being in the position that we know either one, or perhaps both of us, could quit to stay home if we needed is a nice safety net. Similarly, we took advantage of our parental leaves (8 months paid between the two of us, could have streched close to one year including unpaid), and both enjoyed that time. That parental leave also taught us that neither one of us necessarily wants to be a stay at home parent by them selves: it's great when both of us were around to help and also provide adult company, it's not as much fun when you are stuck at home alone with a teething infant. Everyone's reaction is different, but that is some impetus to FIRE before kids.

The upside to not waiting is that it's easier to justify paying for daycare now, and daycare is great: someone else watches your kid for you! I'm only half kidding when I say I'd like to work childcare into my FIRE budget..

Another consideration is your own personality and how you handle stressful situations (and perhaps sleep deprivation): If you are a happy go lucky person and generally adaptable, you might do fine with kids + work.. if you find yourself generally stressed about life and work, it might make more sense to delay waiting to have kids until you can at least remove the stress of work.

onlykelsey

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2015, 04:13:27 PM »
We had kids prior to FI (we're still in the prior to FI stage).  I have two observations to make.  First, it isn't easy working and having kids, but it's manageable.  Our first child really put work and time into better perspective for me.  I established a clearer boundary between my work and home life.  That has lead to greater happiness in my life.

Second, I think that if I had kids at a younger age, I might be closer to FI, now.  If you are working, a lot of the most expensive part of raising a child is daycare.  Getting that out of the way early is great.

I've heard similar comments about boundaries before.  I have a friend just now coming back from maternity leave at our (generally boundary-free) job, so I'm curious to see how she adjusts and what she thinks. 

Day care is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo expensive in Manhattan.   Given how much of the household income I earn, my husband and I might look in to him going part time to allow him to get more time with the kid/have more flexibility with childcare options.  He's very much of the "I'll just work from home!" variety, but a. I don't think his current boss would allow that and b. he has never been around newborns.

madamwitty

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2015, 06:30:47 PM »
The upside to not waiting is that it's easier to justify paying for daycare now, and daycare is great: someone else watches your kid for you! I'm only half kidding when I say I'd like to work childcare into my FIRE budget..

BINGO! I need some time away from my kids, and part of the reason I work (part time) is because I couldn't justify (to myself) the cost of daycare/preschool with me just staying home. On the other hand, if I was FIREd, I might possibly have moved back near family, and have a ready source of free babysitting.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2015, 07:24:38 AM »
my friends who have had kids at 25 vs 35 point out how much more energy they had at 25.

Maybe that's because at 35 they'd already spent ten years dealing with kids they weren't prepared to have? My wife and I had our kids about ten years later in our lives than either of our sets of parents had their kids, and other than for their comments about how they couldn't have dealt with small kids when they were in their mid-thirties, the idea that we had inadequate "energy" (or less than we'd have had ten years earlier) never crossed our minds. Maybe we were more efficient. Maybe your friends were in bad physical condition at 35 after then years of practicing law?

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2015, 05:06:20 PM »
Quote
Maybe that's because at 35 they'd already spent ten years dealing with kids they weren't prepared to have? My wife and I had our kids about ten years later in our lives than either of our sets of parents had their kids, and other than for their comments about how they couldn't have dealt with small kids when they were in their mid-thirties, the idea that we had inadequate "energy" (or less than we'd have had ten years earlier) never crossed our minds. Maybe we were more efficient. Maybe your friends were in bad physical condition at 35 after then years of practicing law?

Maybe!  But I was actually talking about friends who had one or more child in their 20s and one or more in their 30s.  I actually have a friend who had her four kids at 17, 24, 30 and in her early 40s!  But your logic holds, maybe it was their second or third or fourth child that was wearing them out, not the fact that they had that child later in life.

I think I am sympathetic to the "you have more energy when you're younger, have them soon!" argument in part because as an ex-gymnast, the different in my resilience at 15 and at 20 was GINORMOUS.  When I was in Europe for my honeymoon, we stayed at simple, non air-conditioned bed and breakfasts, but I'm not sure I could have faced sleeping bags on someone's floor like I did at 19, haha. 

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2015, 05:27:11 PM »
You don't want to wait too long to have kids.
We love being 50-something empty nesters.

While I understand this view, we very much enjoyed having the time to ourselves before having kids.

The wife and I just celebrated our 9 year wedding anniversary, and our first one is on its way.  Having that time, just us, was amazing.

And we'll still be empty nesters in our 50s (early 50s, as I'm 30 right now, or maybe mid-to-late 50s depending on how many kids we have, but we'll definitely be "50-something empty nesters").

If you're of similar ages, the woman's biology limits the timespan you can have the kids, so even having them about as late as typically possible (say, late, late 30s), they're still over 18 by your mid-50s.  This is only not the case for the man, if he's much older. The math to me says pretty much every woman should be a 50-something empty nester, even if she waited to have kids.

So your point is true, but I think it'll be easy for most people to hit, and I wouldn't overlook the time together while young, without kids (on top of the "both being FIRE'd to raise them" neatness).

Hard to say when you will actually have an empty nest. For example, I left at 22, sister left at 19, brother left at 24. I came back at 26 and again at 29 for short stints. Legally, my obligation ends when I am 42, however, I very seriously doubt she will be out the door the minute the HS diploma is in her hands. And I don't care, whatever, as long as she is doing something useful with her time and contributing to the household. I and my siblings were given the benefit of that doubt and I intend to give that gift to my own kid.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 05:29:45 PM by Helvegen »

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2015, 05:34:39 PM »
Reality check--you said you are planning to continue in your 80-hour-a-week lifestyle post your first kid?

That sounds awful to me. Either you're at work all those hours and rarely see your child when she's awake, or you're at home and always telling your kid to go away because Mommy's working.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2015, 08:53:25 PM »
Reality check--you said you are planning to continue in your 80-hour-a-week lifestyle post your first kid?

That sounds awful to me. Either you're at work all those hours and rarely see your child when she's awake, or you're at home and always telling your kid to go away because Mommy's working.
That was my thought as well. I'm planning on a semi-retirement along with my husband when we have our first kid so that we can spend the first 5-10 years with them full time. That time is the most precious time, I would hate to spend it working so much. If I have to go back to work and un-FIRE after that, I won't be terribly upset, but hopefully I can keep expenses down enough so that a little part time work will cover our expenses.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2015, 09:01:31 PM »
Here's my line of thinking.  Full disclosure: it's very back of the napkin.

A kid costs about $1k/mo for a complete middle-class consumer sucka-style existence.  Think daycare, food, medical, additional commuting, throw in education savings, etc.  Hopefully, mustachians will spend much less

But assuming $1k/mo we will need a $300k stash.  In theory, the assets will pick up the slack for the reduction in savings due to childcare expenses.  So a goal we've discussed is $300k for the first kid, $600k for kid 2, etc.  Then keep saving and growing the stash as you would have normally.  It's not perfect - of course you would have more money without kids.  But it's perhaps a unique perspective to help you determine whether you are financially ready for a kid.
I have to assume this poster either has not had kids lately or had a SAHS.  Daycare in a very LCOLA when my daughter was born in 2013 was over $1000/month. And given that we received a discount for being students, for most people it was even more.  But even with that we kept all her other expenses at less than $200/month, including medical (and she did have a few medical issues in her first year).  And that was in a LCOLA, we ran the numbers in some higher COLA and had to turn jobs down leads down because the additional costs of daycare were so much higher they dwarfed the increased pay.  And before anyone says it, daycare does not end at five.  Even once the child is in school you have daycare during the summer, before and after school care etc.  For my area that would run on average $185/week.  Then add in bare necessities and you are hitting $1000/month.     

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2015, 09:57:31 PM »
Couple of other thoughts:

What are your plans after you reach FIRE?

If you plan to do some travelling, it's worth considering that along with the age of your child(ren) when you  FIRE (or if you have them after).
If you are FIRED and then have kids, you are have about five years of very flexible schedule and travel any time that you want before you are locked into a school schedule (assuming that is your thing). Also, the first two years years of life, the kid flys for free, so if you had a lot of post FIRE air travel planned, you might want to consider that.

arebelspy

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2015, 11:51:56 PM »
You don't want to wait too long to have kids.
We love being 50-something empty nesters.

While I understand this view, we very much enjoyed having the time to ourselves before having kids.

The wife and I just celebrated our 9 year wedding anniversary, and our first one is on its way.  Having that time, just us, was amazing.

And we'll still be empty nesters in our 50s (early 50s, as I'm 30 right now, or maybe mid-to-late 50s depending on how many kids we have, but we'll definitely be "50-something empty nesters").

If you're of similar ages, the woman's biology limits the timespan you can have the kids, so even having them about as late as typically possible (say, late, late 30s), they're still over 18 by your mid-50s.  This is only not the case for the man, if he's much older. The math to me says pretty much every woman should be a 50-something empty nester, even if she waited to have kids.

So your point is true, but I think it'll be easy for most people to hit, and I wouldn't overlook the time together while young, without kids (on top of the "both being FIRE'd to raise them" neatness).

Hard to say when you will actually have an empty nest. For example, I left at 22, sister left at 19, brother left at 24. I came back at 26 and again at 29 for short stints. Legally, my obligation ends when I am 42, however, I very seriously doubt she will be out the door the minute the HS diploma is in her hands. And I don't care, whatever, as long as she is doing something useful with her time and contributing to the household. I and my siblings were given the benefit of that doubt and I intend to give that gift to my own kid.

Sure, but you can predict when they'll be old enough to leave, should things go right.  And should they not, you won't be an empty-nester anyways, no matter what age (i.e. it won't matter if you have them at 25 or 35, as your adult child, if you're willing to support them like that, could just as easily still be at home at 20 as 30).

My point was, even if you have them in your mid-late 30s, they'll all be past 18 by your mid- to late-50s.
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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2015, 07:26:35 AM »
Reality check--you said you are planning to continue in your 80-hour-a-week lifestyle post your first kid?

That sounds awful to me. Either you're at work all those hours and rarely see your child when she's awake, or you're at home and always telling your kid to go away because Mommy's working.

Oh, I'm hoping to take advantage of maternity leave and maybe use this job as a springboard in to something much less stressful and much lower paying.  I don't understand how my colleagues have kids in biglaw, unless they have a SAH spouse.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2015, 08:00:45 AM »
Please also keep in mind that the risk of serious complications are higher with advanced maternal age.  I learned that all too well.  I'm turning 34 next month and just lost my first otherwise healthy pregnancy (we had no idea anything might be wrong until 26 weeks) to a stillbirth at 29 weeks- the baby had an extremely large chromosomal deletion.  Yes, it can happen when the mother is younger, but trisomies and de novo deletions are tied to age.  Not to mention just general infertility issues.

We've been married 11 years and the original plan was to have kids 8 years ago, but it got pushed aside. I really regret that now.

If you want kids, and I really do, don't put it off for money. (That wasn't why we put it off, but I'm not sure if our reasons were "worth it" even if they made sense at the time.)

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2015, 04:39:58 PM »
Please also keep in mind that the risk of serious complications are higher with advanced maternal age.  I learned that all too well.  I'm turning 34 next month and just lost my first otherwise healthy pregnancy (we had no idea anything might be wrong until 26 weeks) to a stillbirth at 29 weeks- the baby had an extremely large chromosomal deletion.  Yes, it can happen when the mother is younger, but trisomies and de novo deletions are tied to age.  Not to mention just general infertility issues.

We've been married 11 years and the original plan was to have kids 8 years ago, but it got pushed aside. I really regret that now.

If you want kids, and I really do, don't put it off for money. (That wasn't why we put it off, but I'm not sure if our reasons were "worth it" even if they made sense at the time.)
Oh, I'm so sorry. It's very hard to lose a pregnancy, and I cannot imagine it happening so late.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2015, 06:51:38 PM »
Please also keep in mind that the risk of serious complications are higher with advanced maternal age.  I learned that all too well.  I'm turning 34 next month and just lost my first otherwise healthy pregnancy (we had no idea anything might be wrong until 26 weeks) to a stillbirth at 29 weeks- the baby had an extremely large chromosomal deletion.  Yes, it can happen when the mother is younger, but trisomies and de novo deletions are tied to age.  Not to mention just general infertility issues.

We've been married 11 years and the original plan was to have kids 8 years ago, but it got pushed aside. I really regret that now.

If you want kids, and I really do, don't put it off for money. (That wasn't why we put it off, but I'm not sure if our reasons were "worth it" even if they made sense at the time.)

iowajes, I am so sorry for your loss.  :( If it's not too intrusive to ask, is there anything you would have done differently, other than starting at a younger age?  Opting in/out of prenatal screening, genetic testing (possibly even before trying to conceive, if there may be hereditary considerations), anything you would have done or avoided, in hindsight? 

I hope you and your partner are getting good emotional and medical support to help you heal.  Please accept my condolences.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2015, 07:03:09 PM »
If you want kids, and I really do, don't put it off for money. (That wasn't why we put it off, but I'm not sure if our reasons were "worth it" even if they made sense at the time.)

I'm so sorry, that's awful.  Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2015, 01:51:17 PM »
What I have learned and wished I'd known ahead of time:

- not everyone can conceive quickly;
- not everyone can conceive without fertility assistance (you can have difficulties at any age, even in your 20s);
- not every conception results in a viable pregnancy;
- not every pregnancy results in a surviving child;
- if you encounter any challenges along the way you both may need time to recover (physically, emotionally.)

Depending on how important carrying a child (or a biologically-related child) is to you and your husband, leave enough time in case you don't get the optimistic, best-case scenario, and leave enough time and energy if you'd want the chance to "try" more than once, if needed.  That may mean you're not FI or that you step back from your career path before financially optimal.

(Sorry, I know what I'm saying is a real downer, but I'd rather you read my depressing post now than perhaps, in hindsight, wish you had given yourselves a bit more time.)

It's always good to hear realistic advice.  It's something I've always been aware of because my mother had ~5 miscarriages (in addition to me and my sister), although docs assure me that was related to medical problems that I haven't inherited.

it sounds like it's probably time to see the doctor and start trying, so we can find out if there are unexpected problems on the horizon.  Plus, 14 weeks unpaid (of six figures) is crazy for the US.  Although we'd like to have at least one biological child, both of us are also open to adoption, although we've done no research or saving or preparation for that path yet.

On the flip side of this: you may plan to "start trying", assuming it'll take a year or 2 [which is within the "normal" range] and then WHAM you're pregnant right away and timelines get a bit compressed.

Source: 31 years old, removed IUD December 2014, got pregnant January 2015, miscarried March 2015, conceived again in May 2015, Baby due February 2016

onlykelsey

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2015, 01:52:59 PM »
On the flip side of this: you may plan to "start trying", assuming it'll take a year or 2 [which is within the "normal" range] and then WHAM you're pregnant right away and timelines get a bit compressed.

Source: 31 years old, removed IUD December 2014, got pregnant January 2015, miscarried March 2015, conceived again in May 2015, Baby due February 2016

This just happened to two of my friends.  One was 27 so it was less surprising, but the other was 37 with a 45 year old husband, and I think she was really betting they had a few months to wait, at least.  Sorry to hear about your miscarriage, but congratulations on your upcoming baby!

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2015, 03:36:25 PM »
Please also keep in mind that the risk of serious complications are higher with advanced maternal age.  I learned that all too well.  I'm turning 34 next month and just lost my first otherwise healthy pregnancy (we had no idea anything might be wrong until 26 weeks) to a stillbirth at 29 weeks- the baby had an extremely large chromosomal deletion.  Yes, it can happen when the mother is younger, but trisomies and de novo deletions are tied to age.  Not to mention just general infertility issues.

We've been married 11 years and the original plan was to have kids 8 years ago, but it got pushed aside. I really regret that now.

If you want kids, and I really do, don't put it off for money. (That wasn't why we put it off, but I'm not sure if our reasons were "worth it" even if they made sense at the time.)

iowajes, I am so sorry for your loss.  :( If it's not too intrusive to ask, is there anything you would have done differently, other than starting at a younger age?  Opting in/out of prenatal screening, genetic testing (possibly even before trying to conceive, if there may be hereditary considerations), anything you would have done or avoided, in hindsight? 

I hope you and your partner are getting good emotional and medical support to help you heal.  Please accept my condolences.

I had prenatal screening, nuchal measurements/blood test (I think it's called a quad screen)- but they came up low risk. However I've since found they only screen for very specific things. Trisomy 13, 18, 21 and neural tube defects, I think.

I would do a CVS or amnio as soon as I could. Really, it feels like, among other heart break, it's time wasted. we were told to allow the uterus to heal and vitamins replenish to wait 6 months before tryjng again. Plus the time it takes to concieve, plus the time I carried that pregnancy- so much time and still no baby. However most insurance won't cover that without medical necessity and it's really expensive. Because of my history it will be covered next time and I'll ask for it immediately. The baby's condition is unlikely to repeat but as it was incompatible with life finding it out sooner than we did for this baby means there are choices we could consider. 

I had lots of ultrasounds and as far as I can tell the radiologist was an idiot. (I do have a complaint in with the state board just in case he was malicious instead of stupid. My OB has told me stories, from other locations she doesn't think it happens here) where the fetal condition is withheld until a termination deadline has passed. So I guess the #1 thing to do differently would be to use the maternal fetal medicine clinic at the university hospital where only OB specific radiologists read the ultrasounds- their training would have caught this so much sooner. I think, for me, an earlier loss would have been emotionally easier, and definetly physically easier, because I had to go through labor and delivery. Though I'm glad I got to hold him. . I had consciously chosen to go to a different hospital because the university has a "clinical" reputation. Looking back, that was a big mistake.

We have since gotten genetic testing done on us and are fighting with insurance to have it covered. I wouldn't reccomend that unless there is reason to suspect an issue. Some people have balanced translocations, but it is rare. We only did it because we had to know for our sanity going forward, but we were 99% certain it wasn't from our DNA (it wasn't- though it could be related to our gametes, but likely it was just nature hating us).

Thank you everyone for the kind thoughts. This happened mid November so Christmas was really hard. I'm doing mostly ok. He was due next month so that's going to be rough too.

I just wish it was a decade ago and I could start again. I blame the Air Force. If my husband had been assigned a research instead of management position at the AFRL he would have stayed in and we'd probably have a gaggle of kids as planned.  Instead he has a PhD and a job that pays a lot less. LOL.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2015, 04:45:18 PM »
Couple of other thoughts:

What are your plans after you reach FIRE?

If you plan to do some travelling, it's worth considering that along with the age of your child(ren) when you  FIRE (or if you have them after).
If you are FIRED and then have kids, you are have about five years of very flexible schedule and travel any time that you want before you are locked into a school schedule (assuming that is your thing). Also, the first two years years of life, the kid flys for free, so if you had a lot of post FIRE air travel planned, you might want to consider that.

Something I haven't thought about enough is what it'd be like to have one FIRE parent and one full-time working parent with respect to travel plans, or otherwise.  DH has led a very debt-heavy life, and hasn't even hit his stride in his career yet (still getting certifications, etc) and currently plans to work until a more traditional retirement age (or at least 45 or 50). That would make travel as a family more challenging.  Of course if I work an extra lucrative year or two, we could move his FIRE date up, as well...

mm1970

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2015, 04:46:03 PM »
Please also keep in mind that the risk of serious complications are higher with advanced maternal age.  I learned that all too well.  I'm turning 34 next month and just lost my first otherwise healthy pregnancy (we had no idea anything might be wrong until 26 weeks) to a stillbirth at 29 weeks- the baby had an extremely large chromosomal deletion.  Yes, it can happen when the mother is younger, but trisomies and de novo deletions are tied to age.  Not to mention just general infertility issues.

We've been married 11 years and the original plan was to have kids 8 years ago, but it got pushed aside. I really regret that now.

If you want kids, and I really do, don't put it off for money. (That wasn't why we put it off, but I'm not sure if our reasons were "worth it" even if they made sense at the time.)

iowajes, I am so sorry for your loss.  :( If it's not too intrusive to ask, is there anything you would have done differently, other than starting at a younger age?  Opting in/out of prenatal screening, genetic testing (possibly even before trying to conceive, if there may be hereditary considerations), anything you would have done or avoided, in hindsight? 

I hope you and your partner are getting good emotional and medical support to help you heal.  Please accept my condolences.

I had prenatal screening, nuchal measurements/blood test (I think it's called a quad screen)- but they came up low risk. However I've since found they only screen for very specific things. Trisomy 13, 18, 21 and neural tube defects, I think.

I would do a CVS or amnio as soon as I could. Really, it feels like, among other heart break, it's time wasted. we were told to allow the uterus to heal and vitamins replenish to wait 6 months before tryjng again. Plus the time it takes to concieve, plus the time I carried that pregnancy- so much time and still no baby. However most insurance won't cover that without medical necessity and it's really expensive. Because of my history it will be covered next time and I'll ask for it immediately. The baby's condition is unlikely to repeat but as it was incompatible with life finding it out sooner than we did for this baby means there are choices we could consider. 

I had lots of ultrasounds and as far as I can tell the radiologist was an idiot. (I do have a complaint in with the state board just in case he was malicious instead of stupid. My OB has told me stories, from other locations she doesn't think it happens here) where the fetal condition is withheld until a termination deadline has passed. So I guess the #1 thing to do differently would be to use the maternal fetal medicine clinic at the university hospital where only OB specific radiologists read the ultrasounds- their training would have caught this so much sooner. I think, for me, an earlier loss would have been emotionally easier, and definetly physically easier, because I had to go through labor and delivery. Though I'm glad I got to hold him. . I had consciously chosen to go to a different hospital because the university has a "clinical" reputation. Looking back, that was a big mistake.

We have since gotten genetic testing done on us and are fighting with insurance to have it covered. I wouldn't reccomend that unless there is reason to suspect an issue. Some people have balanced translocations, but it is rare. We only did it because we had to know for our sanity going forward, but we were 99% certain it wasn't from our DNA (it wasn't- though it could be related to our gametes, but likely it was just nature hating us).

Thank you everyone for the kind thoughts. This happened mid November so Christmas was really hard. I'm doing mostly ok. He was due next month so that's going to be rough too.

I just wish it was a decade ago and I could start again. I blame the Air Force. If my husband had been assigned a research instead of management position at the AFRL he would have stayed in and we'd probably have a gaggle of kids as planned.  Instead he has a PhD and a job that pays a lot less. LOL.
At least going forward, an amnio should for sure be covered because of advanced maternal age (I was 35 and 42 when I had my boys, and I had two amnios).

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2015, 05:12:17 PM »
Couple of other thoughts:

What are your plans after you reach FIRE?

If you plan to do some travelling, it's worth considering that along with the age of your child(ren) when you  FIRE (or if you have them after).
If you are FIRED and then have kids, you are have about five years of very flexible schedule and travel any time that you want before you are locked into a school schedule (assuming that is your thing). Also, the first two years years of life, the kid flys for free, so if you had a lot of post FIRE air travel planned, you might want to consider that.

What is the solution?  Have them earlier, delay FIRE, and wait until they're 18?

Wait to have them until after FIRE so you can travel some post-FIRE, then have them?

Also two clarifications/comments on your post:
1) Kids under 2 aren't always free--it depends on the airline (and country).  Lap babies can cost money.  Sometimes it's a percent of the ticket.  Sometimes it's just taxes and fees.  But it's definitely not always a "kids under two fly free" scenario.

2) The idea of being locked into a school schedule seems crazy to me.  For people who are independent thinkers enough to retire 30 years early (or whatever) to think you're a slave to some random school rules?  Hah.  Sure.  :)
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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2015, 07:18:24 PM »
Quote
At least going forward, an amnio should for sure be covered because of advanced maternal age (I was 35 and 42 when I had my boys, and I had two amnios).
Yes, and because of my previous history now.

I'm pretty sure we'll get this one covered- especially since it revealed a MASSIVE genetic issue, but they are fighting it. I think if you are under 35 they just deny it to see if they can.

And at 33 an amnio wasn't offered until a problem (well like 10 of them) showed up on ultrasound. I still kind if can't believe the radiologist noticed none of the issues. it's a reputable clinic- I had highly reccomended prenatal care, just not the ultra specialists.

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2015, 09:38:02 PM »
What is the solution?  Have them earlier, delay FIRE, and wait until they're 18?

Wait to have them until after FIRE so you can travel some post-FIRE, then have them?

Also two clarifications/comments on your post:
1) Kids under 2 aren't always free--it depends on the airline (and country).  Lap babies can cost money.  Sometimes it's a percent of the ticket.  Sometimes it's just taxes and fees.  But it's definitely not always a "kids under two fly free" scenario.

2) The idea of being locked into a school schedule seems crazy to me.  For people who are independent thinkers enough to retire 30 years early (or whatever) to think you're a slave to some random school rules?  Hah.  Sure.  :)

Good points. When I wrote that I was thinking US domestic flights only, where we've so far always flown free with a lap child. We have had to highish fees for lap child on international travel, though I assume it was still cheaper than buying a separate ticket.

The school schedule thing may or may not be avoidable , I haven't had any experience trying to avoid it to comment knowledgeably, but it's something I'd think about. Assuming you want to do "traditional schooling", I think at best it might still be a minor concern.

If I wasn't clear, what I meant was if the decision was between having kids before or after FI, and you plan to travel extensively in the first few years, then that may be reason to choose kids after FI (or kids 1-2 years immediately before FI), so you have that school schedule free window of travel still open to you. 

arebelspy

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2015, 12:11:34 AM »
If I wasn't clear, what I meant was if the decision was between having kids before or after FI, and you plan to travel extensively in the first few years, then that may be reason to choose kids after FI (or kids 1-2 years immediately before FI), so you have that school schedule free window of travel still open to you.

Ah, gotcha.

Yeah, if you can pull it off, that might be ideal.  Tricky to FIRE early enough to be able to wait to have kids AND have a few gap years to travel and still be able to have them, but I have no doubt some Mustachians can pull it off.  :)

It's definitely much easier traveling without a kid, I'm sure.

Traveling while pregnant isn't too bad either--my wife's 8 mo., and still hasn't had any mobility issues--in fact she hiked 500 miles (800km) over 35 days on the Camino in her second trimester.  Of course this isn't always the case--some people have doctor's ordered bed rest, but the average case is probably fine.

So one could FIRE, travel a bit, get pregnant, travel more, then have the kid. 

If you're comfortable with getting checkups on the road and stuff.  Some people are more worried about stuff like that, I suppose.  :)
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NearlyThere

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Re: Kids before financial independence?
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2015, 06:17:51 AM »
We're just a little bit further down the path than you kelsey, with a 6 month year old sitting beside me.

In late 2013 we decided we were gonna try for a baby. I had always been hesitant as I wasn't sure kids were for me, but we talked it through in great detail and we have never been the "what if" type of people. I didn't want to look back and have regrets. If you read no more, know that this was the best decision we've ever made.

We miscarried early 2014 and it devastated us both. We honestly forgot about trying until very late that year and we tried again. I was promised the 1-2 years of trying, but we got pregnant very quickly the second time and have a beautiful healthy daughter sitting to the left of me right now.

We're not FI yet, but due to be in a couple of years. I earn a very healthy salary from my own business and my wife has her own home based business. I worked 70-80 hour weeks, got home and worked some more, evenings and weekends right up until the birth of my daughter. I still work extremely hard but at 5.30pm I'm running out the door and I do my best to be so much more productive during the day. I feed our daughter and spend an hour or two each evening. I don't feel this is enough and am working to spend more time with them. There may be a little sacrifice until FIRE, but we're comfortable with that....for now.

My wives business affords her the opportunity to work in the evenings and our family are extremely supportive. So childcare will not be an issue for us. But this is a huge consideration as the costs can add up quite quickly.

In my opinion we had children at the right age (mid 30s), as we've achieved financial stability and are on the downhill ride to financial independence. We'll be in our 50s when our daughter turns to adulthood and we will have most of that time in FIRE ourselves, so there is plenty of time together while we're still young. We can work as much or as little as we like and at age 4 our daughter starts school, so a lot more free time will be presented for us to try new ventures if we wish.

In the words of a great advertising firm. "Just do it"