Author Topic: Is this the end for public schools?  (Read 36789 times)

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5658
Is this the end for public schools?
« on: February 18, 2022, 08:57:37 PM »
I live in a really wealthy/liberal part of a red state where state education funding is pretty low, so this may be coloring my opinion, but it seems that in the last couple of Covid years, all the lingering issues with poor teacher retention/not enough new teachers being trained/support staffing have just exploded.

In our neighborhood elementary school (~450 kids) just this year we've lost:
-All 4 instructional aides
-All interventionists, I think we had 2 originally
-Social worker/counselor
-Librarian (replaced with a sub who has the kids doing coloring and worksheets as she's not a librarian)
-Music teacher (eventually replaced but the kids spent the first 3 months watching movies)
-A couple of classroom teachers (mid year, which is usually rare) now being filled in with subs when available and an unlicensed student teacher
-Lunch/foodservice employees such that PB&J is mostly what's served because there's no staff to prepare food
-Numerous bus drivers, though all routes are still just barely functioning as far as I know (our kids ride their bikes)
-Essentially all subs. Most days there are half a dozen sub requests that go unfilled.

There is really no prospect of any of these jobs being filled this school year, or probably next, and I'm guessing we'll lose more teachers that can't be replaced at the end of the year. Quality of instruction has dropped drastically as teachers are just trying to put out fires/deal with behavior problems and there's nobody available to help them.

We are at the end of our rope and it's looking like either homeschool or private school going forward. From my limited view it just seems like public education is broken to the point that it can't be repaired.

So my question for y'all is - do you see similar issues where you are? If so, what do you plan to do? I hate to pull my kids from public school but at this point it's just basically mediocre daycare. If all the wealthy educated people like me start pulling their kids the downward spiral gets worse, but I don't see a way to fix things.

-W

Morning Glory

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4882
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2022, 09:20:26 PM »
Not my experience at all. I'm sorry you're going through that, but there's already too much public school hate on this forum. Will you please consider changing your thread title so they don't pile in here?

Sounds like that's what's going on in your area too. No political will to pay teachers a decent salary,  so they move on. You could try to go around and convince your neighbors to vote for more school funding.  If that doesn't work you could move. I'd rather move than live next to a pack of greedy libertarians who don't feel like educating all the children is in the public's best interest.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 09:29:41 PM by Morning Glory »

Cyanne

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 123
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2022, 09:29:56 PM »
I don’t see public school hate in waltworks post. I see concern. There are definitely staffing issues in my area as well. We have open teacher positions that have been posted but there haven’t been any applicants yet to fill them.

Morning Glory

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4882
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2022, 09:32:54 PM »
I don’t see public school hate in waltworks post. I see concern. There are definitely staffing issues in my area as well. We have open teacher positions that have been posted but there haven’t been any applicants yet to fill them.

No waltworks is not one of the haters I was referring to. There was another thread where the bashing was pretty intense and I don't think he'd want to invite more of it.

I totally get why teachers leave. Pay should be 3x what it is, to put up with that level of stress. Not their fault at all.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 09:34:51 PM by Morning Glory »

FINate

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3150
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2022, 09:36:18 PM »
No, nothing like that here in Boise. Idaho is also very red, and our schools are not without issues -- mostly around how and to what degree stuff gets funded -- fairly typical stuff. But overall, our district is far better funded and managed compared to our previous district in California.

Could the problems you describe be related to the near impossibility of living in/near Park City on a teacher or staff salary?

moustachebar

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 99
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2022, 11:06:10 PM »
Sorry to hear that where you are.

I think I was following that anti public school thread. Hope this doesn't turn ideological.

Urban area, purple state. They call this a working class area, and it is somewhat economically diverse. There are a lot of kids on free lunch. We had lots of retirements over covid and lost food service workers, but otherwise staff is intact. Happy with our teachers, principal, staff, they are super. Teachers who stay ten years or so make six figures and they seem to stick around. Support seems good for various individual needs. Buildings are clean and well maintained and there are adequate supplies and more than adequate computer tech. There were school events for kids and families all the time prior to covid and we are starting to see that again.

The kids aren't always doing something useful but pretty close.

It's not perfect but it's better than the schools of my own youth.

I can see where due to covid closures parents might lose faith in our system in terms of relying on it to be there so they can work, but otherwise I'm happier with it than I have any right to expect.

Hope things turn around for you.


familyandfarming

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 145
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2022, 11:39:10 PM »
Enrollments in teacher education programs are way down all over the US. Some states have an 80% drop in enrollment in 10 years.

There’s lots of reasons. Teaching has historically been a predominately female career path, and in the past decades, there are many more opportunities for women besides being a teacher.

An online search will tell you that this crisis has gotten so big that para educators can now sub in a classroom. (Many have only a couple weekends of training to be a para.) Some states have waived teacher sub requirements almost entirely, that the sub be only be 18 years old and enrolled in community college.

How to solve the problem? Get involved. Offer to be a sub, drive a bus, or be a teacher! Your children’s school needs you!

luchorpan

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2022, 05:11:28 AM »
I would not call it a public school problem. It’s a teaching problem overall. Morale is garbage in all sorts of schools, including college. The pandemic exacerbated issues that already existed. (One explanation that I don’t think gets much attention is how teaching has changed with digital tools. My high school teachers took papers home to grade, but they still got to be “off” for the most part. My parents and I did not have constant access to my grade book and did not pester them via email. Imagine having 30-150 adolescent “bosses” emailing you at all hours!)

I teach at a fancy (to the tune of $30k tuition/year) independent school and we have similar issues. LOTS of new teachers last year, this year (includes me), and already plenty of turnover for next year. One or two mid-year hires, which is normally only seen in the very worst schools. I was hired after a one-year interim person, who was hired because the previous person in my position gave notice the week before the school year started that they wouldn’t come back.

Behavior issues might look different here but my more experienced colleagues say it’s BAD this year. My raise for next year does not keep up with inflation. I left my old school- which I loved teaching at, much much more than this one - because pay was so far off from housing costs in that area. I will stick out next year because my son will get free tuition for pre-K, but after that I don’t know if I’ll stay. The lure of a remote position feels so strong.

LaineyAZ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1058
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2022, 07:22:37 AM »
Getting worse here too.  In Arizona almost 50% of the teacher vacancies are being filled with teachers who don't meet (the already minimal) teaching qualifications. And that's if they can even find someone to hire.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-education/2022/02/16/nearly-half-arizona-teacher-vacancies-filled-without-full-credentials-survey/6787078001/

Teachers in AZ had to strike in 2018 just to get enough pay to move up from 48/50th in the United States.  In years past Arizona has recruited teachers as far away as the Philippines and despite this, we're still in a continuing teacher and staff shortage. 

As of today our state legislature has a one vote Republican majority but I'm really hopeful that the next election will bring a Dem majority.  With that plus keeping our Dem state school superintendant we may be able to stop the bleeding.  (and not to turn this thread political, but yes, public education is political)

justchecking

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 76
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2022, 07:49:21 AM »
We are here in CT and the public schools are great.  If you go to them k-12 you get free university.  We have no vacancies and have a pretty committed workforce.  I also grew up in rural Ohio and the schools were "not great" but I think folks over inflate how much school is important.  Most folks on this forum who follow the advice of MMM are teaching their kids way more than what is in school and their kids will be pretty set for life if you are frugal.  School is for socialization, learning some basics, and getting to be around different kinds of kids.  As long as you think that is what it is for then you will be great.

SomedayStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
  • Live Long and Prosper
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2022, 07:52:06 AM »
I am terrified and watching with horror in Oklahoma.

Things in Oklahoma have always been fairly bad - our teachers are some of the lowest paid in the country. There was a 10 day teacher walkout in 2018 to lobby for better pay and smaller class sizes. I think they got a small raise resulting from the walkout-but 4 years later any gains have been eaten up by inflation and lack of substantial change in funding.

20% of the schools (mostly the rural ones) in our state have gone to 4-day school weeks to save money.

And this was BEFORE the pandemic.

We are in one of the 'best' school districts in our state, but that's like saying we are the best of the worst. I've watched the best and brightest teachers at my kid's elementary school leave for better pay elsewhere. My middle schooler has had 3 teachers leave mid-year this year alone.

Colleges in our state have suspended and stopped their education programs because there is not enough enrollment to teach the next generation of teachers. My mom's side of the family are all teachers or educators (there were six kids and all of them had a career in public education, 2 of them rising to the rank of school superintendent) and they advise their children to choose a different career path.
https://www.news9.com/story/61d73c94ce36750be469dcf9/dipping-enrollment-leads-to-suspensions-of-education-preparation-programs

Meanwhile there is a brilliant K-8th grade private school just up the road from me. Too bad it costs $8k per year for KINDERGARTEN?!

Enrollment in other private (usually Christian) schools has greatly increased because none of those schools had mask mandates and my fellow Oklahomans love their "freedom".

The state of public education feels an awful lot like the state of our countries infrastructure: It used to be pretty good, but it's crumbling around us and I don't know if it'll last long enough for my kids to make it through. The bridges are literally falling out from beneath us.



 

Dictionary Time

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 145
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2022, 08:03:11 AM »
I think folks over inflate how much school is important.  Most folks on this forum who follow the advice of MMM are teaching their kids way more than what is in school and their kids will be pretty set for life if you are frugal.  School is for socialization, learning some basics, and getting to be around different kinds of kids.  As long as you think that is what it is for then you will be great.

For the educated and rich parents here, public school is less important. We read to our kids, we take them to museums, we engage them, we advocate for them at school so that they get all the resources available.

The problem is the kids who don’t have these parents. What do we say- should have thought about that before you were both?

School is a life line and the only hope some kids have. The pandemic and at home learning has been so hard on these kids. And now when they need to catch up the most, they’re getting thrown to the wolves.

I think it’s really a shifting in America where we used to offer people an education and now it’s every man for himself.

Morning Glory

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4882
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2022, 08:07:47 AM »
Most folks on this forum who follow the advice of MMM are teaching their kids way more than what is in school and their kids will be pretty set for life if you are frugal.  School is for socialization, learning some basics, and getting to be around different kinds of kids.  As long as you think that is what it is for then you will be great.

If this is true for you then you are very lucky.

I need the specialized help that school provides.  My kids both have delays in speech and fine motor skills in addition to autism. Youngest may have some cognitive disability too. Their future prospects are much better if they have access to teachers and therapists with expert knowledge in their particular issues.  I was very careful when choosing where to live, for this reason. Oldest spent half of kindergarten on zoom and it was a fucking nightmare.

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5658
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2022, 08:08:12 AM »
How to solve the problem? Get involved. Offer to be a sub, drive a bus, or be a teacher! Your children’s school needs you!

I would love to volunteer (I am a quite effective reading tutor) but the district has outright banned parents from entering the schools (yes, banned) since covid started and shows no signs of changing that policy. No parent has been able to set foot in the schools for the last 2+ years. I've asked repeatedly.

My wife was barred from being a substitute anymore because she requested new beanbag chairs for the library. Yeah, barred for asking for beanbag chairs. WTF?

It does sound like our school/district is uniquely bad, which is a relief to hear, sort of. Of course then again maybe we're the canary in the coal mine. They've got the national guard teaching school in New Mexico now (here in UT they allow any state employee to to substitute teach for 30 days while still collecting their normal salary)! Which, now that I think about it, probably costs more than they pay the regular teachers...

I get that school doesn't need to be perfect. I'm a fan of public education, a super involved parent, and I'm not worried about the outcomes for my own kids particularly. But I also don't want them to just go sit around and watch movies while being supervised by someone from the DMV. Is that too much to ask? And is it too much to ask that kids who *need* a decent school because they don't get that kind of parental involvement actually get an education?

-W

Cyanne

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 123
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2022, 08:45:21 AM »
How to solve the problem? Get involved. Offer to be a sub, drive a bus, or be a teacher! Your children’s school needs you!

I would love to volunteer (I am a quite effective reading tutor) but the district has outright banned parents from entering the schools (yes, banned) since covid started and shows no signs of changing that policy. No parent has been able to set foot in the schools for the last 2+ years. I've asked repeatedly.

My wife was barred from being a substitute anymore because she requested new beanbag chairs for the library. Yeah, barred for asking for beanbag chairs. WTF?

It does sound like our school/district is uniquely bad, which is a relief to hear, sort of. Of course then again maybe we're the canary in the coal mine. They've got the national guard teaching school in New Mexico now (here in UT they allow any state employee to to substitute teach for 30 days while still collecting their normal salary)! Which, now that I think about it, probably costs more than they pay the regular teachers...

I get that school doesn't need to be perfect. I'm a fan of public education, a super involved parent, and I'm not worried about the outcomes for my own kids particularly. But I also don't want them to just go sit around and watch movies while being supervised by someone from the DMV. Is that too much to ask? And is it too much to ask that kids who *need* a decent school because they don't get that kind of parental involvement actually get an education?

-W

It’s not too much to ask. Unfortunately, it seems that society doesn’t want to support it. You may have even noticed it when you said that other state employees may sub and keep their own pay. If society as a whole valued teachers (and other school staff) and paid them more then there would be plenty of teachers.

My own district is in contract negotiations and they are offering a 2% raise. That doesn’t even keep up with inflation. A neighboring district offered 1.5%. They voted to authorize a strike.

It’s not just money though. Teachers have had their workloads increased exponentially in the last couple of years only to hear people complain that they are lazy and don’t want to work after Covid caused schools to switch to distance learning.  When you add the political nonsense such as the CRT witch hunt, it isn’t really surprising that teachers are looking at other options.

charis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3163
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2022, 08:52:51 AM »
I feel for you as a fellow public school parent and supporter. We are seeing some of that in an urban district surround by red suburbs in a a blue state.  Meaning there is not a lot of will in our immediate (wealthy) area to fix the poor district.  We are down interventionists, subs, food workers, clean crews, resource officers (at the high school level), busing, etc.  I haven't seen the academics fall, probably because the behavioral issues are not too bad at our school, which is 50% free/reduced lunch as opposed to 90% across the district as a whole.  So teachers are trying to get into our school rather than out.  But it doesn't help the rest of the students at other schools. 

I can't believe your wife was barred as a sub.  That alone would might make me angry enough to leave the school.  What could possibly be the reason for that, as opposed to simply denying the request? 

But I'm not hearing that it's better in the private schools.  Turn over is very high right now, private school teachers are overworked for much less pay than in public schools and there are no subs.  I know several that have left recently and dropping out of teaching altogether.  There's no guarantee that private school teachers are more qualified teachers either.  Folks want to believe that they are getting what they are paying for at private schools, but it's often not the case.

familyandfarming

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 145
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2022, 09:22:37 AM »
Walt, sorry about your wife’s experience. Perhaps your district’s problems may be administrative rather than staff? A bad principal and superintendent can create havoc in a few short years. Couple that with a school board pandering to bad administration, you’ll have staff leaving like the school’s on fire!

A million years ago I listened to a NPR episode where some guy (really, it was a million years ago) who was talking about problem solving and Buddhism. To summarize, “You may have a problem with the leaves of the tree, but until you look at the branches, limbs, trunk and roots, you can’t truly solve the problem.”

Every school and district is unto itself, and represents the community. Try to float above it all and look down. So many times we are so caught up, we don’t see the forest for the trees.

Good luck, and bless you for attempting to be an agent of change for your children  and your community!

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5658
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2022, 09:39:21 AM »
Yes, the administration is incompetent/actively hostile and the board is terrible. They actually stopped speaking to the press last year and never started again after they were criticized.

But those aren't problems that can easily be solved. There's no mechanism for recall elections in Utah and the admin has the full support of the board.

-W

familyandfarming

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 145
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2022, 10:56:44 AM »
Walt, run for school board. Help your school.

SomedayStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
  • Live Long and Prosper
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2022, 11:05:13 AM »
In news that is both timely and relevant to this thread, here's a state bill that just passed out of committee in the Oklahoma legislature and is supported by our governor:

"SB 1647 would allow any student to use state funds to cover private-school or homeschool costs.
Parents would be able to set aside the state dollars in an education savings account and spend the money on costs related to their children's education, so long as the kids don't attend public schools."


It really does seem like a not insignificant portion of the people in power WANT our schools to fail.

Luckily there seems to be a lot of opposition to this bill. It's quickly obvious to most people that this will directly hurt rural populations and would essentially just pad the pocketbooks of the well-off parents who are already sending their kids to private schools or the folks who can already home-school.

SailingOnASmallSailboat

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 695
  • Location: Somewhere where the water is at least 5 feet deep.
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2022, 12:02:32 PM »
We are here in CT and the public schools are great.  If you go to them k-12 you get free university. We have no vacancies and have a pretty committed workforce.  I also grew up in rural Ohio and the schools were "not great" but I think folks over inflate how much school is important.  Most folks on this forum who follow the advice of MMM are teaching their kids way more than what is in school and their kids will be pretty set for life if you are frugal.  School is for socialization, learning some basics, and getting to be around different kinds of kids.  As long as you think that is what it is for then you will be great.

Can you provide a source for this? My brother and SIL live in CT and I'd love to share this with them. A quick google on my part makes it sound both less restrictive (no need to have gone for all 13 years; it's just that you need to have graduated from either public or private high school in CR) and more (it's for community college, not 4-year school, and the funding is in danger of being eliminated every year.)

I think school is critically important for all kinds of reasons and way more than what you cited. Speaking as a former teacher who is horrified at how teachers are being treated on a number of fronts.

mavendrill

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Location: Northern Colorado
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2022, 12:06:42 PM »
I don't think this is the end, but walt I have seen the exact same thing in a blueish state.  My wife teaches (I used to).
I really believe its (almost) all about the money.  I started subbing 14 years ago, and a licensed sub made $70 in the biggest district, some of the smaller ones around paid as high as $85 a day.
The minimum wage was $7.15, and thats what you could get hired at for unskilled and temporary jobs.  Today subs in the area are paid $100-130 a day.  The minimum wage is $12.56.  Kroger is hiring at $16.50, lots of other places at $15 plus, with full shifts and benefits available (subs here are only eligible for retirement).  Of course schools can't get subs.  Substitute work only makes sense currently for individuals in incredibly exotic life situations, or as a form of community service.

The same is basically true of teachers.  The economy has been great here for the past 10 years, and teacher pay has "boomed" by 20% over the period.  A lot of teachers didn't mind because they owned homes and real estate has nearly tripled in value.  But now young folk with teaching degrees can't afford housing, and so they look elsewhere for jobs.  My plumber has a teaching license, but he makes far better and lower stress money plumbing.  My sister in law has a teaching license and works in tech for 2.25* what a teacher could make at her experience level.

Eventually schools are going to realize that the money is such a problem that they need to find ways to adjust salaries by 50% or more.  And that is going to mean a LOT higher property taxes.  And things will get a lot better then.

Fishindude

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3075
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2022, 12:42:07 PM »
The staff size, facilities and infrastructure of modern public schools are pretty ridiculously bloated compared to what they were 50 years ago, and we're not really getting any better educated kids.   
They could stand to streamline in most cases.    I'd rather see smaller facilities with less amenities, less staff, and higher pay for the smaller staff.

charis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3163
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2022, 01:00:34 PM »
...The same is basically true of teachers.  The economy has been great here for the past 10 years, and teacher pay has "boomed" by 20% over the period.  A lot of teachers didn't mind because they owned homes and real estate has nearly tripled in value.  But now young folk with teaching degrees can't afford housing, and so they look elsewhere for jobs.... 
Not to mention the cost to receive a teaching degree with a bachelors and masters and certification fees has jumped considerably during that time.  It's only really cost effective if you attend, ironically, public universities and qualify for loan forgiveness.  And even tuition at those institutions are very high these days.  And forgiveness is typically tied to a number of years at impoverished schools.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 01:02:52 PM by charis »

luchorpan

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2022, 01:04:10 PM »
There's no guarantee that private school teachers are more qualified teachers either.  Folks want to believe that they are getting what they are paying for at private schools, but it's often not the case.

Parents want to believe that they’re paying for educational excellence, instead of admit that they want the country-club social selection that high tuition provides.

mavendrill

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Location: Northern Colorado
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2022, 02:00:28 PM »
...The same is basically true of teachers.  The economy has been great here for the past 10 years, and teacher pay has "boomed" by 20% over the period.  A lot of teachers didn't mind because they owned homes and real estate has nearly tripled in value.  But now young folk with teaching degrees can't afford housing, and so they look elsewhere for jobs.... 
Not to mention the cost to receive a teaching degree with a bachelors and masters and certification fees has jumped considerably during that time.  It's only really cost effective if you attend, ironically, public universities and qualify for loan forgiveness.  And even tuition at those institutions are very high these days.  And forgiveness is typically tied to a number of years at impoverished schools.
This is definitely an issue.  a significant number of teachers at my wife's school is planning on leaving teaching after they get their loans forgiven.

The cost at the public university I went to, a state flagship school, has gone from $1700 each semester my freshman year (2004) to $5520.  Thats more than tripling in 18 years at the most affo affordable way to become a teacher (technically you could get cheaper by doing some community college - but there are very few classes at community college that will make progress towards a teaching degree).  Also because of student teaching, it is all but impossible for a teacher to graduate in 4 years unless they take substantial amounts of summer school.  So the effective cost of a teaching degree is typically close to 20% higher than many other options.  Why would anyone do that these days? 

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7461
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2022, 02:32:37 PM »
I'm in Indiana, and there are/were some bills in the State Congress that if passed would basically destroy public education. Though that's not what the supporters would say of course. The private schools are doing quite well, because they're exempt from a lot of the insanity that is required testing, etc.

What I hear from people in the local school district right now tells me that the school district is already failing. They're short teachers (because the pay is terrible and the parents worse), they had to change the start times for school in the middle of the school year because they couldn't find enough bus drivers. They're basically begging for money because they've lost so much funding from the state over the past decade. And there's a decent number of people that I'm hearing don't want to vote for the referendum.

The consequences are going to be terrible though. The good employers will leave, because they need a skilled and educated workforce, and they won't have it. It's not just Indiana though. To varying extents, its the entire country. As much as I value public education, I can imagine a time where anyone who has the slightly opportunity will go to private schools or a very select few public districts - because the alternative is so bad you might as well not go to school at all.

If we want to avoid that, we have to triple or quadruple teacher pay, and everyone else involved in education, from the bus drivers to the aides to the lunch monitors. We need to attract the best to be teachers, and we do that in part by paying them well. We have to standardize grade level requirements, and anyone who doesn't meet those requirements has tutoring, remedial courses, or are simply held back to repeat the grade. And the TEACHER decides what's appropriate - not the parents. We have to have trained and experienced educators and child development experts in charge of curriculum, and NO ONE is able to overrule them. Parental choice will look like free public school and you don't get to exempt kids from topics or classes or you pay through the nose for private schooling and get to choose what topics get taught/not taught. Going to public school should cost $0. No book fees, no lunch fees, free. Exempting your child from learning about the Holocaust or sex ed should not be an option. And if the kid misses that day, there's make up work to ensure they learn it anyway. There should be way more counselors and social workers in schools than there are currently. Every child should have initial evaluations to screen for potential learning disabilities or other issues, and children for whom there are concerns should have complete evaluation and testing to identify any problems, followed by appropriate interventions.

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5658
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2022, 02:35:51 PM »
In the short term, I think we are just going to have to homeschool our kids, unfortunately. Hopefully there are some non-lunatic homeschoolers around to hang out with.

This entire town is already a country club so we don't need private school to get that, for better or worse.

-W

gatortator

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2022, 02:48:14 PM »
In news that is both timely and relevant to this thread, here's a state bill that just passed out of committee in the Oklahoma legislature and is supported by our governor:

"SB 1647 would allow any student to use state funds to cover private-school or homeschool costs.
Parents would be able to set aside the state dollars in an education savings account and spend the money on costs related to their children's education, so long as the kids don't attend public schools."


It really does seem like a not insignificant portion of the people in power WANT our schools to fail.

Luckily there seems to be a lot of opposition to this bill. It's quickly obvious to most people that this will directly hurt rural populations and would essentially just pad the pocketbooks of the well-off parents who are already sending their kids to private schools or the folks who can already home-school.

sending hugs and moral support.  I just finished Blowout by Rachel Maddow and Oklahoma schools and teachers’ unions are mentioned in several chapters.  I am another deeply red state resident- the fight is not easy…
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 03:36:42 PM by gatortator »

StarBright

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3276
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2022, 07:26:22 PM »
I'm in Ohio - a purple ruralish school district outside a blue city but in a red state :)

Our district is actually a top school system in the state and our teachers are better compensated than in many other districts in Ohio. Our paras, bus drivers, and support staff are paid pretty crappily - between 11 and 15 an hour so we never have enough support staff, subs, or drivers.

Our school system is good, tops the state tests every year, offers WONDERFUL electives starting in 5th grade. We are so thankful for it. But we also pay pretty major property and extra income taxes. Our property taxes have gone up 24%, 11%, 15% and 18% the last few years (after being flat for the decade before we bought the house <shrug>) . At the rate they are going up they are going to pass our (low) mortgage in a couple of years. We also pay a local income school tax of 2% on our gross income. 

We rely on various school services for my oldest child. Finding comparable services through a private school would cost as much as a private university, so here we stay and we're thankful for it.

Ohio has a weird funding mechanism where districts with a certain income threshold per person are expected to essentially fund their own schools with very little state funding, so you end up with with very wealthy districts with high taxes and poor districts that are funded by the state. It creates spiraling silos of inequality.

I'm in almost rural ohio and you can't buy a new build in our town for under 400k right now. It is wild!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 07:27:58 PM by StarBright »

jeninco

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4041
  • Location: .... duh?
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2022, 01:29:14 PM »
The staff size, facilities and infrastructure of modern public schools are pretty ridiculously bloated compared to what they were 50 years ago, and we're not really getting any better educated kids.   
They could stand to streamline in most cases.    I'd rather see smaller facilities with less amenities, less staff, and higher pay for the smaller staff.

I've spent many, many hours in our local schools at all levels (elementary, middle, and high school), and I'd say the staff size is barely adequate to care for and educate most of the students, and the facilities and infrastructure are merely OK -- we passed a decent-sized bond a few years back, so a lot of deferred maintenance has finally been done. We are one of the richest districts in the state, and I would hardly describe our facilities as gold-plated, but I think most of the major leaks have now been repaired.

How many 2nd graders do you think a single teacher should be teaching? Or a 6th graders? Or 11th?
Are you including paras and aides for the substantially disabled (physically and mentally) students who are now mainstreamed? Because some of the kids with developmental delays who were at my kid's schools required almost a 1-to-1 or 1-to-2 para, especially if they were going to learn anything. Are you thinking of both the teachers teaching the AP classes (which are generally pretty civilized) and the teachers helping run the credit recovery program for students who have already failed one or more classes? How about the ratio for students learning English as a second language?

I mean, I agree that in many cases APs are worthless to the running of the schools, but I've rarely come across anyone else who wasn't working HARD to help out students. (And the APs think that they are, too...)

jeninco

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4041
  • Location: .... duh?
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2022, 01:30:51 PM »
Walt, run for school board. Help your school.

Yeah, this one. Sorry, it's probably a way higher bar than you were looking for.

Not only to help your school, but help the less privileged students who are going to be voters in the not-too-distant future.

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5658
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2022, 02:05:03 PM »
I could run for school board in 3 years, but no sooner, unless I move to a different part of the district.

Honestly I'd probably just leave town first, though, or homeschool. School board is a truly awful job as far as I can tell.

-W

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3848
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2022, 03:19:14 PM »
You could not pay me enough to run for school board. I have been to a lot of school board meetings.

Honestly, public schools have staffing problems, and so do private schools. I know dozens of people who have left teaching in the last few years.

Private schools generally pay less, and charter schools are the worst of all, so I don’t think the current mess is going to end public school but it sure isn’t going to improve it.

mavendrill

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Location: Northern Colorado
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2022, 04:23:34 PM »
You could not pay me enough to run for school board. I have been to a lot of school board meetings.

Honestly, public schools have staffing problems, and so do private schools. I know dozens of people who have left teaching in the last few years.

Private schools generally pay less, and charter schools are the worst of all, so I don’t think the current mess is going to end public school but it sure isn’t going to improve it.
While there are some excellent paying private schools, most sure definitely low pay.  I looked into teaching at private schools and got a bunch of offers, but the compensation offered was never competitive.  I definitely never saw charters that paid as low as most private schools.

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7433
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2022, 04:44:04 PM »
I could run for school board in 3 years, but no sooner, unless I move to a different part of the district.

Honestly I'd probably just leave town first, though, or homeschool. School board is a truly awful job as far as I can tell.

-W

Can you find any unhappy parents in parts of the district with elections coming up in the nearer future whose campaign you could knock on doors for or pay for direct mail advertisements (a little money goes a LONG way in school board elections)?

It probably isn't necessary to replace the entirely of the school board. Nor even a majority. If you can get candidates for a couple of seats running together on a platform that includes some of the changes you want + explicitly reversing your school board's policy on not talking to the press and those candidates win, the remaining board members are much more likely to change their positions and/or resign.

Based on how bad you describe the situation I bet there are a lot of unhappy parents AND unhappy teachers. And once you got the word out on some candidates running on a "let's talk to the press about the situation in our schools again" platform, I bet they'd be able to get a lot of free coverage from the local paper (if one still exists) and/or local tv news (if it exists). Journalists really don't like being shut out of local government stories.

For bonus points, this wouldn't require you to actually serve on the school board, just find some other parents and talk them into doing it. It does sound like a frankly miserable job.

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3848
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2022, 08:46:23 PM »
You could not pay me enough to run for school board. I have been to a lot of school board meetings.

Honestly, public schools have staffing problems, and so do private schools. I know dozens of people who have left teaching in the last few years.

Private schools generally pay less, and charter schools are the worst of all, so I don’t think the current mess is going to end public school but it sure isn’t going to improve it.
While there are some excellent paying private schools, most sure definitely low pay.  I looked into teaching at private schools and got a bunch of offers, but the compensation offered was never competitive.  I definitely never saw charters that paid as low as most private schools.

Charters offer less competitive benefits (because they’re out of the union) and more pressure to produce test scores. Everybody I know who has taught at a charter has jumped to the regular public system if they’ve stayed in teaching, which means that you don’t get a lot of experienced teachers there.

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5658
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2022, 09:45:00 PM »
Educated guess: there is nobody on our school board with a net worth under 8 figures.

So I'm not going to be outspending them on direct mail ads, unfortunately.

The local press has been running negative stories about the district/admin for the last 6 months or so now, some of them are pretty damning. I'm even quoted in one! Thus far that has not resulted in any actual outrage among the general public, probably because they have banned parents from the schools and hence a lot of people have no direct knowledge and figure everything must be fine.

I personally think there will be a crisis before the board can be replaced, probably involving not having enough staff to even open schools this fall.

-W

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8963
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2022, 10:04:59 PM »
I think that the Republicans are trying to destroy public schools so that the public school money can be funneled into Evangelical Christian Nationalism private schools.

lutorm

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 831
  • Location: About the middle of Sweden
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2022, 01:04:05 AM »
Our oldest is still in preschool, but we're moving to Sweden in no small part because of the complete lack of support for families in the US. Yeah, we're not helping but I'm losing hope for any form of reason to prevail here.

Zamboni

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3885
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2022, 01:15:44 AM »
^^This! Schools are for indoctrination, right?

In the short term, I think we are just going to have to homeschool our kids, unfortunately. Hopefully there are some non-lunatic homeschoolers around to hang out with.

This entire town is already a country club so we don't need private school to get that, for better or worse.

-W

Okay, your country club comment cracked me up. Yep.

There are more and more "normal" people who homeschool. It's not for everyone, though, that is for sure. For it to work, you need a very patient and well-organized parent holding it together and quite set routines at home during "school" time. You also need to have someone effective at the teacher role while also being the parent the rest of the time. Some kids rebel against parents in a way that they never would with a school teacher . . . it's normal growth behavior to want to separate from parents during teen years, for example. So that can add to the difficulty in effectively home schooling.

It's counter intuitive, but I think homeschooling is easier if you have more kids as long as you have the super organized parent (or self motivated kids) keeping things at appropriate level for each kid. Education studies show that too small of classes impair learning. I sort of remember that the sweet spot was 6-8 students. Less is not ideal.

I'm quite highly educated and I'm actually an educator, but I did not try home schooling. In fact, I hired an English tutor for my son for a few hours during high school, and he really improved his writing in just 12 one-hour sessions. Just listening to their sessions made me realize that I am NOT qualified for that. The tutor was a high school teacher in another state who was tutoring online as a side hustle. He was an early 30's guy who connected with and motivated my son in a way that I will never be able to duplicate.

I'm sad about what I see happening to K-12 education in the US. It's not just public schools, it's across the board. There are still some fabulous teachers and staff in both public and private teaching, but we've reached the critical shortage levels due to low pay.

charis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3163
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2022, 04:50:04 AM »
You could not pay me enough to run for school board. I have been to a lot of school board meetings.

Honestly, public schools have staffing problems, and so do private schools. I know dozens of people who have left teaching in the last few years.

Private schools generally pay less, and charter schools are the worst of all, so I don’t think the current mess is going to end public school but it sure isn’t going to improve it.
While there are some excellent paying private schools, most sure definitely low pay.  I looked into teaching at private schools and got a bunch of offers, but the compensation offered was never competitive.  I definitely never saw charters that paid as low as most private schools.

Charters offer less competitive benefits (because they’re out of the union) and more pressure to produce test scores. Everybody I know who has taught at a charter has jumped to the regular public system if they’ve stayed in teaching, which means that you don’t get a lot of experienced teachers there.

And apparently charter school teachers don't need any experience or teaching qualifications? I know a guy who taught high school science at an inner-city charter school in Philly for a year or two. He had a bachelor's (and a master's in urban planning) and trouble finding a job. No teaching certs or science background. I don't think it went well.

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3848
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2022, 05:32:48 AM »
Depends on your state law - charter teachers have to be certified, AFAIK, but an emergency certificate is usually pretty easy to get for the short term.

And again, it depends on your state law but it many cases private school can hire whoever they want. Private school certification is often quite different from what the public system requires. Sometimes that works out and sometimes not.

The big problem with programs like Teach For America is the same - it plops people with minimal training or experience into the classroom and occasionally it’s a great fit, but often not so much.

I do agree that there’s a line of conservative thought that would like to kill public schools, but we’ve learned the last two years that an awful lot of people do not want to homeschool.

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2022, 06:01:32 AM »
I think that the Republicans are trying to destroy public schools so that the public school money can be funneled into Evangelical Christian Nationalism private schools.

I recognize your comment as mostly sarcasm, but adjusting my tinfoil hat for a second -

What better way to ensure that the next two generations are going to maintain the unspoken caste system that has been painstakingly constructed over the past 150 years (beginning in the post-Civil War Reconstruction era)? Make sure that the education system, wherever possible, does not set poor/minority/disabled/disenfranchised up for any measure of adult success. Make sure that YOUR views of the world are the only ones that are made to matter. Make sure that YOUR kids don't have any part of the public or publicly accessible private education system.

Honestly, it's even moderately agnostic of political orientation. 

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8963
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2022, 06:51:08 AM »
I think that the Republicans are trying to destroy public schools so that the public school money can be funneled into Evangelical Christian Nationalism private schools.

I recognize your comment as mostly sarcasm, but adjusting my tinfoil hat for a second -

What better way to ensure that the next two generations are going to maintain the unspoken caste system that has been painstakingly constructed over the past 150 years (beginning in the post-Civil War Reconstruction era)? Make sure that the education system, wherever possible, does not set poor/minority/disabled/disenfranchised up for any measure of adult success. Make sure that YOUR views of the world are the only ones that are made to matter. Make sure that YOUR kids don't have any part of the public or publicly accessible private education system.

Honestly, it's even moderately agnostic of political orientation.

Well, at least the liberals want to help the poor/minority/disabled/disenfranchised get a better deal, so there's that.

And I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being completely straightforward.   Conservatives tried doing the same thing via school vouchers but kept getting blocked, so this is round six.   

Round One was forbidding minorities to learn at all.  You can read about that in Frederick Douglas' excellent autobiography or various other historical sources.

Round two was setting up segregated and definitely unequal schools. 

Round Three was completely shutting down public schools after integration and just handing the school budget funds to white people to go to newly formed private, whites-only schools.  Yep, that happened in parts of Virginia back in the 60s!

Round Four was to leave public schools in droves to go to newly formed white Christian nationalism schools.   Lived thru that when busing was implemented in my school system in the 70s.   The kids who left the public schools for a whites only private education are part of the alt-right problem today.

Round Five was to implement school vouchers so the public was funding those white Christian nationalism schools.  That kept getting blocked.

Round Six is to destroy public education so that public funding for private schools becomes the new norm.  Think that sounds like tinfoil conspiracy?   Rounds 1 thru 5 are historical, verifiable fact.   What makes siphoning public money into private hands hard to believe?   That's a lot of money to get their hands on with the added benefit of indoctrinating the students into believing that being fleeced in the name of bigotry is good for them.

There are even threads on this forum where people are concerned about their kids going to a public college because they might be corrupted by real world knowledge, so they want their kids to go to a private "Christian" college instead.

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7433
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2022, 07:48:54 AM »
Educated guess: there is nobody on our school board with a net worth under 8 figures.

So I'm not going to be outspending them on direct mail ads, unfortunately.

Wow. Yeah that's a very different sort of school board member from the type I'm familiar with. So much for my advice.

I'm sorry for what your kids are experiencing. Glad your family has the flexibility to at least pull them out of the school and get them actual education.

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2022, 10:59:04 AM »
I think that the Republicans are trying to destroy public schools so that the public school money can be funneled into Evangelical Christian Nationalism private schools.

I recognize your comment as mostly sarcasm, but adjusting my tinfoil hat for a second -

What better way to ensure that the next two generations are going to maintain the unspoken caste system that has been painstakingly constructed over the past 150 years (beginning in the post-Civil War Reconstruction era)? Make sure that the education system, wherever possible, does not set poor/minority/disabled/disenfranchised up for any measure of adult success. Make sure that YOUR views of the world are the only ones that are made to matter. Make sure that YOUR kids don't have any part of the public or publicly accessible private education system.

Honestly, it's even moderately agnostic of political orientation.

Well, at least the liberals want to help the poor/minority/disabled/disenfranchised get a better deal, so there's that.

And I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being completely straightforward.   Conservatives tried doing the same thing via school vouchers but kept getting blocked, so this is round six.   

Round One was forbidding minorities to learn at all.  You can read about that in Frederick Douglas' excellent autobiography or various other historical sources.

Round two was setting up segregated and definitely unequal schools. 

Round Three was completely shutting down public schools after integration and just handing the school budget funds to white people to go to newly formed private, whites-only schools.  Yep, that happened in parts of Virginia back in the 60s!

Round Four was to leave public schools in droves to go to newly formed white Christian nationalism schools.   Lived thru that when busing was implemented in my school system in the 70s.   The kids who left the public schools for a whites only private education are part of the alt-right problem today.

Round Five was to implement school vouchers so the public was funding those white Christian nationalism schools.  That kept getting blocked.

Round Six is to destroy public education so that public funding for private schools becomes the new norm.  Think that sounds like tinfoil conspiracy?   Rounds 1 thru 5 are historical, verifiable fact.   What makes siphoning public money into private hands hard to believe?   That's a lot of money to get their hands on with the added benefit of indoctrinating the students into believing that being fleeced in the name of bigotry is good for them.

There are even threads on this forum where people are concerned about their kids going to a public college because they might be corrupted by real world knowledge, so they want their kids to go to a private "Christian" college instead.

Having been a firsthand participant in the alternative education system (I was exclusively private school educated from K-12, and went to a private Christian-adjacent college), I know your comments weren't sarcasm.

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2022, 11:45:44 AM »
I think that the Republicans are trying to destroy public schools so that the public school money can be funneled into Evangelical Christian Nationalism private schools.

I recognize your comment as mostly sarcasm, but adjusting my tinfoil hat for a second -

What better way to ensure that the next two generations are going to maintain the unspoken caste system that has been painstakingly constructed over the past 150 years (beginning in the post-Civil War Reconstruction era)? Make sure that the education system, wherever possible, does not set poor/minority/disabled/disenfranchised up for any measure of adult success. Make sure that YOUR views of the world are the only ones that are made to matter. Make sure that YOUR kids don't have any part of the public or publicly accessible private education system.

Honestly, it's even moderately agnostic of political orientation.

Well, at least the liberals want to help the poor/minority/disabled/disenfranchised get a better deal, so there's that.

And I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being completely straightforward.   Conservatives tried doing the same thing via school vouchers but kept getting blocked, so this is round six.   

Round One was forbidding minorities to learn at all.  You can read about that in Frederick Douglas' excellent autobiography or various other historical sources.

Round two was setting up segregated and definitely unequal schools. 

Round Three was completely shutting down public schools after integration and just handing the school budget funds to white people to go to newly formed private, whites-only schools.  Yep, that happened in parts of Virginia back in the 60s!

Round Four was to leave public schools in droves to go to newly formed white Christian nationalism schools.   Lived thru that when busing was implemented in my school system in the 70s.   The kids who left the public schools for a whites only private education are part of the alt-right problem today.

Round Five was to implement school vouchers so the public was funding those white Christian nationalism schools.  That kept getting blocked.

Round Six is to destroy public education so that public funding for private schools becomes the new norm.  Think that sounds like tinfoil conspiracy?   Rounds 1 thru 5 are historical, verifiable fact.   What makes siphoning public money into private hands hard to believe?   That's a lot of money to get their hands on with the added benefit of indoctrinating the students into believing that being fleeced in the name of bigotry is good for them.

There are even threads on this forum where people are concerned about their kids going to a public college because they might be corrupted by real world knowledge, so they want their kids to go to a private "Christian" college instead.

Ladies and Gents, we have a thread winner!

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2022, 11:52:07 AM »
Strongly recommend everyone here on this thread listen to "Nice White Parents" podcast that does a deep dive into the intricacies and difficulties of public school reform in NYC. Well worth your time and entertaining to boot.

As for my family, we pay 8K+ per year in school taxes because that's what it takes to live in a top 5 school district in my state. Worth every penny. Despite our school district being a well recognized high performer, there are plenty of people in our neighborhood who STILL insist on sending their children to private school/religious school despite already paying public school taxes. To each their own, I guess.

charis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3163
Re: Is this the end for public schools?
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2022, 11:57:24 AM »
Most threads on this forum about moving and schools reference "good schools" (aka mostly wealthy, and/or white, suburban) without a moment's reflection.  So lets not pretend the liberals want to help anyone but themselves.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 01:03:16 PM by charis »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!